I have a huge gripe about a trend I see playing out in disc golf: the tendency to duplicate the stuff that's done in ball golf.

What originally drew me to the sport (and I am still very new to it) is how similar it is to ball golf and yet how different it is. I like the fact that I can throw from 3-foot tall grass where 3-foot grass in play on a ball course would be reason to ask for your money back. I like that I have not only many different discs to choose from, but many different ways to throw them; hyzer, anhyzer, tomahawk, roller, etc.

But I am seeing pictures in dg magazines that show golfers using caddies. Ok that’s cool, I guess. I have seen pictures of people using pull-carts on some web sites - whatever suits your fancy. But what really blew my mind was a course web site that stated, “We have a par 72 course – JUST LIKE A REGULAR BALL COURSE.” Now I have to draw the line...

Copycat sports rarely work and I do not want dg to become one of them. In football there was the pathetic XFL and the pointless USFL. Arena Football on the other hand is derived from football but has been around for 20 years because it doesn’t try to be like the NFL! The AFL formulates rules and does certain things because it’s good for their particular sport and not because that’s the way the NFL is doing it. All I ask is that people who are designing courses, planning events, changing rules or other things try to keep my point in mind. I think the vast majority of people who are in those decision making positions are doing a good job of avoiding this tragedy but every once in a while I see the urge to make it “like ball golf” creeping in.

I have no issue in using lessons learned from the well-established ball golf world but let’s do everything we can to keep this great sport unique.



-Dave

I'll agree that there are certain aspects of ball golf that disc golf should never try to emulate.

But striving towards higher par courses such as par 68 or par 72 should be a top priority. If you haven't discovered the joys of par four and par five disc golf and the number of possibilities and options that present itself on these type of holes/courses versus pitch-n-putt golf, there's a whole brand new world you're missing out on.

I also think there is alot of ball golf to be emulated. I personally think its bs we are generally regulated to unused land and therefore have to play in three foot tall grass. I would much rather play on a well manicured course. I think its funny some people say they enjoy unkempt areas and looking for the disc is half the fun. I personaly hate looking for my discs, much rather spend time throwing. I also agree that we need to move in the direction of true par fours and fives and get away from all holes being par threes. The long holes are the types of roles really seperates the field alot better and shows whos got the skills. And caddies rock! Its fun to be a caddie and to have a caddie both. I just cant wait until there are more courses with golf carts for use. I think that would be a major step in being taken seriously as a sport. What does everyone else think?

I'll agree that there are certain aspects of ball golf that disc golf should never try to emulate.

But striving towards higher par courses such as par 68 or par 72 should be a top priority. If you haven't discovered the joys of par four and par five disc golf and the number of possibilities and options that present itself on these type of holes/courses versus pitch-n-putt golf, there's a whole brand new world you're missing out on.



definitely...
who wouldn't want the challenge of course on a ball golf level??? and who wouldn't want disc to be on the same level as ball golf??? if all we have is par 54 courses, we'll never get there... :confused:

I smell blood in the water :DSkiers are still skiers and snowboarders are still snowboarders.Skiers have thier mogels ,snowboarders have thier half pipe ,and both can use it ,along with jumps along the way ,with rails of all sizes.Two plank wanks are like 8 tracks in CA.The only thing that changed was the equipment.Discs or clubs the game is the same. :D

Hey Reese, I think you posted somewhere you've run 29 tourneys...did they all have the "14 disc limit" rule?

Any other ways [besides being on bolf courses] you see Fly 18 as closer to ball & stick golf than the PDGA?

While I would love to see disc golf on the same level as funny (ball) golf, I don't think we should try and emulate it by any means. So most funny golf courses have par of 72, so what? If we make longer courses our pars could be anything, why go for 72? Also, disc golf and funny golf are fundamentally different philosophically. On a typical ball golf course, the difficulty of the course is determined by where your ball can fly and the air is pretty open in general and only the lie really makes a huge difference. In our game, however, the flight of the disc is more of the challenge and other than trees and bushes blocking our shot (still blocking the flight, not where it lands) it can land in grass, mud, or anything legal. The OB areas on a ball golf course may make a good DG course if it weren't for cart paths. Also, the actual completion of any given hole is much different at a philosophical view. Look at the boys on the PGA and they are taking shots at the pin all over the place, but so are the ones in our game. The difference is in actually holing out. In our game if you actually make an attempt to make a shot its a good chance you have a 20 footer coming back. In funny golf a good shot with good power can be within a foot or 2. So in that game you can go for the pin and still have a chance to hole it. I mean a good lay up putt form 70 feet can go in, but in DG if you are 80 feet out and try and hit the putt you have a good chance at a tricky come backer. So while the idea of completing a course in the fewest shots are identical, DG was meant to be played in the woods while ball golf is meant for the fancy pants country clubs. Just my half nickel.

I have always wanted to take my discs to the golf course, and see how i fair on them usuing their pars, just say get my putter within 10 feet of the hole to finish the hole, i think i could prob do much better then my friends, with them playing with clubs. i could prob shooot par or a couple over. cause a 500 yard hole, is a par 5. i can throw about 140 yrds . so im i think i could do pretty well.

I also agree that we need to move in the direction of true par fours and fives and get away from all holes being par threes. The long holes are the types of roles really seperates the field alot better and shows whos got the skills.



I have to disagree with you there. I know a few guys with huge arms and absolutely no skills. Big open courses for me.....BORING! To each his own.

I have to say that getting the overall par higher is good for the game. With new disc technology and an ever deepening talent pool the courses should be getting more difficult. Many of the courses currently in the ground were designed before high speed drivers revolutionized the sport. So making some adjustments for that is a good thing. I wouldn't call it a "copycat " sport just because it could be played on a ball golf course. That's just giving us a better chance to be recognized as "legitamate" and maybe land that opportunity we have been looking for in our sport. Par 72 doesn't mean that it has to be on a "ball golf" course. Gateway's Ozark Mountain course is the most prime example of this. Our sport will always be unique no matter what venue we decide to play on. The options need to be explored to make sure that we offer our sport the best potential to succeed at the level we all strive for. :D
:D:D:D:D

I agree.

While having big open holes are very fun for people who have big arms, and I feel should definitely be incorporated into a course, I don�t think they should be the focus of course design. If that were the case it would not be the same game. It would become one big distance contest. There should of course be a mix. Distance does not equal skill. To show your skill you need obstacles. Just like a good disc golfer needs a mix of distance and accuracy, so does a course. Adjustments should be made for advancing technology and talent and the distances now being achieved, but I don�t think it should be the focus. I would like to see just as much thought be put into the rest of the game. (I'm not saying it's not) While fundamentally disc golf is the same game as �funny� golf (that�s funny) of course we shouldn�t try to emulate it with respect to course design. It is a totally different game when it comes to that. I do feel we should strive to be more like it in many other ways though.

Can you tell I have a weenie arm? :D

If you were to have a par 72 Layout you would only have 4 Really long par 5s and 4 shorts Par threes and then the rest would be good 2 shots holes. Of you could make it 5 par 3 and 5 par 5s and 8 par 4s or you could even go 6 par 4s 6 par 5s and 6 par threes to make a par 72 course. Then it all even. Plus the par 4s and 5s dont have to be HUGE open field holes they could be tight fairway placement shot holes where its just not possible to get a 3. I say par 7s is where its at because then you have to develope an ENTIRE game you cant just be good at one thing like you can right now. Right now you can be an AMAZING putter and a not so good driver and still win or you can be an amazing driver and a not sooo good putter and still win but if it was par 72 you would have to be good at both to do well. I think higher par and longer holes is where this sport needs to be going. Not ALL courses or tournament should be par 72 lay out but i hope that it gets to about 50-50 Par 54 and Par 72.

That is the point the everyone needs to see. Par 72 doesn't mean long open courses, it means tight placement courses where you seldom see the basket from the tee.

But these courses also have to be designed where the fairways are clearly defined, and you can easily see from the tee where you want to land your shot from the tee.

One thing I think that disc golf SHOULD try to emulate is the asthetics of ball golf courses. If we continue to settle for nasty parcels of land with poor drainage, among other problems, then we will continue to have ugly courses. The beautiful park-like atmosphere of ball golf courses is a big part of what attracts people to that game. Disc golf courses can be made beautiful without straying from the play-in-the-woods tradition.

Another thing that disc golf should strive for is courses on land that is not multi-use. Ball golf courses are not used for any other activity than golf. A large majority of our courses are in public parks where other activities are allowed (picnicking, etc.) in the same space where we are throwing discs. Creating disc-golf-only properties would go a long way in establishing some legitimacy and respect for our sport. Weaving a course through a picnic area solely for the sake of having a course may have been okay 30 years ago, but we should set higher standards and goals today.

I agree with the comments about raising par and lengthening courses. This can also be done within our play-in-the-woods tradition.

Bottom line is that there is much good to be emulated in ball golf and that disc golf can do so without betraying our traditions.

Par 72 Disc Golf Link :) (http://www.par72discgolf.com)

Happy B-day Millzzzzzzzzzzz

Happy B-day Millzzzzzzzzzzz



Thanks man.

Par 72 Disc golf rules :D Maybe ill ask them for a Sponsorship for my Birthday I mean its worth a try right???

Plus the par 4s and 5s dont have to be HUGE open field holes they could be tight fairway placement shot holes where its just not possible to get a 3.



Yea Steve, that's true. I love holes like these. There's nothing watching you big arms step up to the tee, only see you hit a tree 50 feet up the fairway. Priceless if you ask me:D :)Happy Birthday!! :)

While I enjoy being able to step up to a wide open 400+ hole and be able to park it I also love to the placement holes where you actually have to think. They had alot of those at Ewing and Big Creek this year and worlds and i really liked those types of courses :D Thanks for the Happy Birthday. See you in Warwick for the NT :D

While we may all give you a lot of sh_t on here Pimp, remember that people have to respect your game to take the time to try and deface it. Oh and yeah... Happy Birthday. :D;) :D

While we may all give you a lot of sh_t on here Pimp, remember that people have to respect your game to take the time to try and deface it. Oh and yeah... Happy Birthday.



Thanks for both the comments. It really does mean alot to me :D

Happy b-day millz, how old are ya? Par 72 is where our sport is evolving to. I for one am tired of birdie or die courses and would love to see more par 4's and 5's. Even a par 60 course is much more fun to play than a regular 54.

I can see where some ball golf aspects could be enjoyable. I would like to have some longer courses to play. As long as these long courses have a "beer cart girl", I am in for sure.

BTW, Happy B-day

Turned the big Deuce Deuce today.

Id love to see a beer cart chick also :D

Turned the big Deuce Deuce today.

Id love to see a beer cart chick also :D


Carry your own beer, Pimp. There is never a beer cart around when you need one anyway. ;)

par 72 doesnt have to be the only alternative to par 54, i'm currently helping design a course that will likely have par in the lower to mid 60's depending on whether we stretch it to more than 18 .

Sweet discussion everyone. This has been cool to read all the differing opinions and the respect that everyone is showing each other for the most part. I appreciate all of the responses even if they disagree with what I said...I’m not stupid enough to expect everyone to agree with me – if everyone did – this would be a very screwed up world.

There are a few things I thought I ought to clarify from my original post. Some misconceptions have come up because I wasn’t clear enough the first time. First, I have no problem with a dg course being a par 72. I couldn’t care less what the par is – 54, 63, 1045 – whatever, I’m just happy to have the chance to play. The issue I have is the mentality that, “We do it like the ball golf courses.”

Second, I love ball golf and it has its place. I have no problem taking aspects of that game and applying them to disc golf. On the other hand I don’t want people making decisions solely based on, “How the PGA does that.” This is a very fine line. Well-manicured courses are very nice; bags to hold your equipment are cool; caddies are – um – something I can’t afford. I would just like to see those that make decisions like the PDGA ask themselves this question when making changes, “Are we doing this just because the PGA does it or do we truly believe that this will improve our sport?”

That is all I am asking. Nothing else. I think this is a really good point of debate because I believe that disc golf will loose some of its luster if it doesn’t maintain its uniqueness.

Thanks again...
-DaveB

I am in favor of it because it improves the game.

It is much more challenging to get on a course where you can never let your guard down and have to throw more than one type of shot from the tee boxes. Where the best drive from the tee box may be a layup for a better line on the approach.

I am in favor of it because it improves the game.

It is much more challenging to get on a course where you can never let your guard down and have to throw more than one type of shot from the tee boxes. Where the best drive from the tee box may be a layup for a better line on the approach.



Thats a VERY good way to make great courses :D

When you talk about recreating the asthetics of a ball golf course, you are talking about BIG BUCKS. Which most clubs and/or city councils don't have to give for disc golf. In that case it has to become a Pay-To-Play situation to have the money to do the upkeep that will be neccesary to keep it at that "ball golf" quality landscape. I know this very well because I live next to a pay-to-play course which emulates the ball golf astheitcs better than any other course which I have played. But the upkeep is a non-stop process. You gotta pay someone to mow the grass 3 times a week. Then you gotta pay someone to patrol the course to make sure that people are paying the course dues. So if you want to get away from multi-use facilities and poor land quality. get ready to fork out some serious $$$$$$$!!!!!

�We do it like the ball golf courses.�

�How the PGA does that.�




Dave. The issue might not be "How the PGA does that",but rather "How the pool players do that."

Bowling, 9-ball, bull riding...even skateboarding and poker have something in common. Something (I think) the PDGA would like to have. That is nationwide TV exposure. To see that their sport has grown to the point where the Pro Worlds or the USDGC is broadcast on FSN or ESPN.

There are many issues with getting to that "next" level. I want to look at one. Venues. Each of these sports had to create venues where fans could watch. Each one started as tiny events where very few people could watch (if they wanted to). Each one, in its own way, has built stadiums (big, little, temporary) for the fans, the sponsors, and for TV to come and be a part of the action.

Now, to your point.

Fan and TV friendly venues will become an issue for those promoting DG to the next level. "Stadium courses" (an old golf course design term) MIGHT well become the next "thing". Where can we build a course and hold a tournament where players will be challenged, where people can come and watch, where sponsors would like to be seen, and where we could attract TV exposure.

Today, we think that will be the golf course turned DG course. The Japan Open shows how this can be done. (I really liked the DGWN article.) We are going to the golf course because we don't see a better way to get to the next level.

Maybe, some forward looking people will see a different way to incorporate all these ideas together....without costing a fortune.

Please accept my apology if this strayed to far from the topic.
Rod.

The one major thing that all of the sports you mentioned(poker, rodeo, pool) is that you could tape the entire show with 2-3 cameras. Even with a "camera friendly" stadium course it would still take 12-18 cameras to pull it off. Not as to say that your idea isn't good, we can only hope that TV will see the potential enough to make that commitment. :D

The japan open would never have happened if the course was not being airrated, no golf allowed.Courses that you can play after the event is gone allows players to come back and test thier skills.Golf courses will be the future of our sport ,you cant stop progress.

Doesn't have to be big bucks. Disc Golf is for the most part not quite ready for that. Be imaginative. Think outside the box. There are ways to beautify the course without requiring tons of money and constant upkeep. Frankly, I think we should shy away from manipulating nature and over fertilizing, two staples of ball golf course design. Our courses are much more natural and eco-friendly.

One day, there will be country clubs devoted to the sport of disc golf. They will have a full-time staff of groundskeepers, a restaurant, and a budget based on annual membership dues. But it's something that has to be built up to gradually.

One day, there will be country clubs devoted to the sport of disc golf. They will have a full-time staff of groundskeepers, a restaurant, and a budget based on annual membership dues. But it's something that has to be built up to gradually.



It is here now Mike. The brand new Twin Parks Country Club just outside of Austin, TX is just what you asked for. Two 18 hole courses, 5200 square foot player clubhouse with all the features, restaurant (Steady's Grill) and lots, lots more. Check out www.twinparkscountryclub.com (http://www.twinparkscountryclub.com) for a little more.

And yes even the budjet is membership based. In the last few months over 150 members have joined and as things get completed watch that number grow.

Thinking outside the box Mike does work. :)

Very, very cool Chris. Do you have a rough (financial)estimate of what it took to put this place together? Can't wait to play some golf and bike there!!! :D:cool:

Let's just say a lot. 135 acres of land 20 minutes from downtown Austin, a nice house, and everything is not cheap.
The entire clubhouse and everything else has been built from scratch purely for the players.

At the moment we have 4 staff. The owner, myself, the grill's chef and the mountain bike guy.

If anyone is planning a road trip in Texas this is the place to stay a while.

Chris,
That is (almost) unreal. 36 holes on 135 acres. Did you max out your space? Or did you leave something in the bag for later?

Let's just say a lot. 135 acres of land 20 minutes from downtown Austin, a nice house, and everything is not cheap.
The entire clubhouse and everything else has been built from scratch purely for the players.

At the moment we have 4 staff. The owner, myself, the grill's chef and the mountain bike guy.

If anyone is planning a road trip in Texas this is the place to stay a while.


That would be a great road trip destination. Any cheap hotels nearby? Now I know what I can do when I retire... run a disc golf country club. :D

Chris,
That is (almost) unreal. 36 holes on 135 acres. Did you max out your space? Or did you leave something in the bag for later?



No where close. We still had room for 5 miles of mountain bike trails, 4 future beach volleyball courts, and lots of other things.

Disc Golf is strong in Texas...even for an Aussie :cool:

Dave. The issue might not be "How the PGA does that",but rather "How the pool players do that."

Bowling, 9-ball, bull riding...even skateboarding and poker have something in common. Something (I think) the PDGA would like to have. That is nationwide TV exposure. To see that their sport has grown to the point where the Pro Worlds or the USDGC is broadcast on FSN or ESPN.




AMEN!

If you want to take it to the next level we need to promote to families. This sounds a bit silly at first but that was the first thing that attracted me to disc golf was that this was something I could enjoy with my kids. I have a 7 year old daughter who can whip a DX valk a whopping 50 feet and gets the sucker to do the sweetest "s" turn you've ever seen...you have to see it to believe it. Shoot, my 4 year old is already trying his hand at a sidearm throw that's already clearing 20 feet...I digress...Kids are our future as the cliche goes and I believe this is true of disc golf as well.

But I have seen articles where events are being sponsored by some beer company and there are pictures of hotties holding up some event discs posing for the camera. Hey, that's cool for the college campus and maybe for some other venues but that doesn't work for the little ones...We need more stuff like the awesome idea of the EDGE skillshot thingy.

Get volunteers to got to local high school, middle schools and even elementary schools and do an abreviated skillshot competition during their gym-class. Gym teachers are always looking for variety of sports to teach (and especially stuff they don't have to prepare for. :D) Promote competitions at schools and maybe make sure the kids know there are junior tiers they can compete in. Maybe if there is some generous individual out there, run a special batch of ROC's with stamps made just for kids (stamp of the school mascot maybe?) and give them out at schools.

Lastly, I think the TV spots will come with time and especially once they eventually realize just how many people really enjoy this sport.



Please accept my apology if this strayed to far from the topic.
Rod.



Dude...don't worry about it. It's all good. :DI like the direction this is going...

-DaveB

Get volunteers to got to local high school, middle schools and even elementary schools and do an abreviated skillshot competition during their gym-class. Gym teachers are always looking for variety of sports to teach (and especially stuff they don't have to prepare for. ) Promote competitions at schools and maybe make sure the kids know there are junior tiers they can compete in. Maybe if there is some generous individual out there, run a special batch of ROC's with stamps made just for kids (stamp of the school mascot maybe?) and give them out at schools.



Actually, the EDGE SkillShot format is an adaptation of Chuck Kennedy's Skillshot idea. It is the outcomes measurement portion of the EDGE curriculum. Ask any teacher about outcomes measurement and they will tell you how much its needed in today's educational climate.

And teachers ARE looking for a variety of sports to teach. That is why EDGE developed an educationally sound, graded curriculum that not only teaches disc golf fundamentals but ties the sport to other subjects like math (keeping score), environment (course surveys), and general fitness (nutrition, stretching, etc.).

If there is a generous individual out there who'd like to see EDGE in their local school or even entire school district, EDGE can make sure that the teachers get not only a curriculum to guide them, but lightweight golf discs suitable for students, and other equipment and lesson resources. Teachers don't want to have to reinvent the wheel, and the educators in the EDGE program have done the work up front to make sure that those things are available.

We are currently working on the second edition of the curriculum with additional lessons and resources and preparing syllabus outlines for classes ranging from 4-6 weeks for elementary students to whole year classes for high school students. EDGE is being used in more than a few universities and colleges as a methods class to prepare future PE teachers.

We are currently writing grant proposals to several corporations and philanthropic organizations to secure funding for the future of the program. We are a registered 501(c)3 non-profit educational corporation. We think that EDGE can not only help address the problems of juvenile obesity and lack of fitness, but can also help swell the ranks of disc golfers and help create that market base that we are looking for.

We thank those that have supported our efforts in the past and hope that we can expand our base in the future. To do that takes funding, so if anyone has access to corporate marketing or philanthropic decision-makers, we'd appreciate a call or email.

EDGE:
[email protected]
(866) 391-EDGE

Jon Lyksett, EdS
Executive Director

I second the notion that disc golf should pay attention to being family- and kid-friendly. And I think that desiging and maintaining courses that are shorter (yes, even pitch and putt) is the way you accomodate these players and bring them into the game.

For those players who can throw 400+, I agree the long par 72 course is a great deal of fun. But if you want the sport to become popular, you need to build a larger player base. Who watches ball golf on TV or spectates at a ball golf tournament? People who play the sport recreationally. Most people who watch baseball or basketball or football have played the game, thus giving themselves a frame of reference for what they are watching and cheering for. If you want people to watch and support our tournaments, they need to play the game recreationally first.

One of the things that I have always loved about this sport is the variation in design of the courses. Some short, some long. Some woody, some open. Deserts, grassy parkland, mangrove swamps. Lots of variety and personality. As mentioned in the original post, the variability in how you can throw the disc is a plus for disc golf. Ball golf requires open parkland because of the limitations brought on by how you propel the ball. Disc golf does not have the same limitations. Why impose these limitations, just so we can play on courses that look like ball golf courses?

Lets do our own thing. It's better!

I second the notion that disc golf should pay attention to being family- and kid-friendly. And I think that desiging and maintaining courses that are shorter (yes, even pitch and putt) is the way you accomodate these players and bring them into the game.



That is exactly what they do in Japan. I played 3 Japan Opens and lived in Japan for over a year. The Japan Open course was awesome but the regular course in the city park was much shorter and suited to the family player. They also get huge amounts of casual play from the park goers and therefore benefit from more exposure to the sport. Longer is not always better. It all depends on the target audience.

Very true. Its really easy to incorporate a shorter course for kids, just put a tee at the half way point of every hole. Thats the way they do it here.

See, I told you that it would be here one day!!

This is totally cool. Hopefully this type of facility will be in Virginia by the time I retire. Otherwise, I'm moving to Texas (don't tell my wife).

Mike - they already have this in Virginia ... The Grange! Trappasso has a club house, video games, two 18 hole courses and Tiki Golf! (OK, its not really a country club atmosphere, but its the closest thing we have :cool:)

The Tiki course at the Grange could be installed at almost any school in the country. It uses very little land and it is a total blast to play ... and, you only need a putter.

If permanent baskets cost what SkillShots cost, there would be many more courses and therefore, many more players. It would obviously be a lot easier to raise the money to put in 'Tiki' style, 9-hole courses in small parks and elementary schools if the total cost was kept around $1000. IMHO, the number one thing that slows progress of disc golf is the cost of permanently installed baskets. Build it and they will come.

Sorry if this is thread drift. BTW - the best par for disc golf is in the 62-66 range, but that's just another of my humble opinions ;)

IdahoJon...Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! Guess I should've read up a bit more on the EDGE program - I had no idea how much that encompassed...It sounds great.

-Dave

Yes, but as Chris eluded to, it costed A LOT of money to make it happen.

The word is "cost".

And yes, I realize that it takes a great deal of money to do something like that. But that example is the top of the scale. Our club does wonders with nothing more than some mulch, yard tools and enthusiasm. With a few hundred bucks, you can buy plants and go a step higher.

My point is not to necessarily be resigned to settle for what you have at present. There is always room for improvement. Each club or course needs to evaluate their funds and abilities and work within them or aspire to increase them.

The Highbridge complex in Wisonsin is a great example of hows things can be. 3 fabulouse 18 hole courses, 1 lighted campground course and all sorts of family ammenties being put in. It willbe a great test case to see how they do over the long haul.

I dont see how they will ever show a profit.I think this will be a great tax deduction for a long time.But it is good for all.This along with Chris in texas is great for our sport.But it is a big gamble.Along with me on the golf courses.It is making disc golf pay for play and that is great. :cool:

Reese I agree with you on the short to mid-range profitability issue. It sounds like it is far from the owners only source of revenue plus the are diversifying the place into more than just disc golf so heres to hoping she works out.

Let me see if I get this right -

If a person was to buy a piece of property or two and open up a couple Disc Golf Facilities hire a staff and open up for business, it would never work. Well I wish you had told me that before I quit my full time job nine years ago, now I have to tell my staff it won't work. Somehow I thought that if I was supporting my family,having fun doing pretty much as I want and other people depended on me for a source of income it might be working.

Thanks for the info but I think I will keep going with what I do it works for me.

I heard it was originally going to be a ball golf destination. So my guess is that this guy has enough money to not profit for a long time and still be O.K. I also saw on the website that he is offering building sites for homes on the property with basic utilities available(electric, septic). I think as Highbridge grows in popularity and the scope of activities increases, they will find a good market even with the location. They are not that far from the Minoqua/LacDuFlambeu area which is a very popular destination for tourists and outdoor adventureists alike. Can't wait to go there! :cool:

I have been there and would highly recomend it.

I will hopefully make it to Highbridge for the smaller sanctioned events that are this spring before the mid-nationals. Just praying for warm weather and not an April blizzard, lol! :p

If you get a chance come up for the Discraft Fall Open in October I would highly reccomend it. The colors are spectacular and the golf is as well.

That depends on wheather or not I qualify for the USDGC's again ;). If I'm not in Rock Hill, I'll be at Highbridge!

Obviously Mad Town you've not been to the northwoods in the winter, or as you southerners call it April. I went to school in Ashland, about 20 miles from Highbridge and wish it would have been around when I was up there. I moved "South" to get away from the never ending winters, but would have made more of a go at it up there with a facility like that.

All I can say......is that disc golf needs to get away from the par 3 mentality. I mean really, what fun is that??? I think all disc golf courses should move towards true par 4's and par 5's. It only makes you play that much better. It makes the game so much more iinteresting. When you have a hole that you could crush your driver and maybe get a 3...but also maybe a 5 or 6 for a bad shot, or choose to throw your roc for the easy gap shot. I hope that all courses in the future have some par 4's and 5's. And not always because of distance!!

I don't mind long holes, but as a beginner, I believe that it would intimidate me stepping in the box @ a par 5. You can practice your drive for ball golf @ a driving range and most people have done that. I also think that limited space leads to shorter, more "technical" courses.

A par 54 course needs about 10 or 15 acres.

A par 72 course needs about 40 or 50 acres.

The game might/will progress to country clubs and Membership fees...
But I don't want to pay for that.. I like playing in parks and Donating or helping out for upkeep.
The game should never Be totally turned into Ball golf in which YOU HAVE TO PAY a lot to play.
IF this happens i will probably stop playing.
I like the game because i can go to a course and play.. If i wanted to pay to play i'd play ball golf..
Going to a state park and paying $3-10 for the day is fine by me, but i wouldn't want to have to become a member in order to play discgolf..
As long as their are still courses where you can play Free the game will always know where it came from.

-Scott Lewis

a useful model for price comparisons is tennis courts. there are free public courts, courts that charge rates, and private clubs for only members and guests.

the question is whether a player is willing to pay for better and/or more exlusive facilities.

the main reason i quit playing golf on a regular basis after 20 years and became a regular disc golfer was the cost. having said that, i have no problem paying $5 or $10 a round to play on a superior disc golf facility. it's still way less than the $40-$50 a round i used to pay for golf.

it bothers me to hear people crying about paying $5 for a round when they' ve got $200 worth of plastic in their $80 disc golf bag.

the sport of disc golf IS NOT FREE! aside from the initial investment for baskets, pads, signs, benches, and trash cans are the ongoing maintainance costs. all these costs can be borne by cities, counties, sponsors, volunteers, greens fees, or a combination thereof.

there are a variety of existing ways to finance the costs of disc golf. the bottom line is if a facility is well maintained, attractive, challenging, fun, and played by a steady and growing number of players of different skill levels, sex, and age then that financial model is working. if, however, a facility is ugly, dilapidated, and unsafe for young people then that model is NOT working.

thank you to disc golf friendly parks administrators, strong volunteer run clubs, AND to disc golf entrepreneurs for giving us a variety of great places to play and for growing our sport!

What most irritates me in this tendency to lengthen courses, is the designer�s need to make every single hole one which is best thrown right hand back hand (fore hand and lefties need not apply). Why is it no longer desirable to employ a variety of shots?

I would like to know where you are playing where the courses are predominately RHBH shots.

Almost every course I have played if it does not favor multiple throws; backhand, sidearm, overhand and rollers. It favors left handed players.

The newer course at French Creek, and the changes being made to Akron to name the two closest to me. (Both in south central PA). The changes in Akron will most likely result in all holes finishing to the left.

That sounds awfully boring, and too simple unless the holes are +800ft long.

Most of the lefty courses are designed by righties who think they are making it "challanging" by making everybody turn their discs right at the end. Real tricky. They forgot that 20% of players are left handed and don't think it's tricky at all. Also not tricky if you have a side arm.

having said that, i have no problem paying $5 or $10 a round to play on a superior disc golf facility.


For those of you interested in a country-club-like disc golf experience, you might want to check out what's happening in Dripping Srpings, TX. I'm not associated with the place, but I know people who are, and our TX10 Charity Tour is stopping there this year. From what I hear, Twin Parks is going to revolutionize the way DG courses get funded. Moody's is another good example, and has been in operation for quite some time... Circle R, too. Both of those and disc golf "ranches" on private land which require a nominal fee to play, but provide small luxuries that you don't get on your average public course.

I'm all for private, pay-to-play courses. The simple fact is that Disc Golf courses do not require even 1% of the construction costs or maintenance costs of a ball golf course. Any fees to play will never get anywhere close to Country Club rates, and if the DG community gets a little more on board with paying a few dollars to play on a priate course... we might just turn our beloved sport in a very good direction. Imagine a well-kept DG course with a fully stocked, air-conditioned pro shop and a fully-stocked, air-conditioned 19th hole bar. That course would be packed year-round.

I'm all for private, pay-to-play courses. The simple fact is that Disc Golf courses do not require even 1% of the construction costs or maintenance costs of a ball golf course. Any fees to play will never get anywhere close to Country Club rates

Yet. There are already folks out there who are thinking in terms of and planning for a future that includes high-construction, high-maintenance cost courses. A number of years ago, for example, Mike Holgate (of Ching!) won a design competition for a disc golf course held by a CC near Columbus, OH (Muirfield Village, if memory serves), complete with bolf-inspired "move-a-million-cubic-fee-of-earth" landscaping. To date, the course has not built, however, due to construction costs.

What most irritates me in this tendency to lengthen courses, is the designer�s need to make every single hole one which is best thrown right hand back hand (fore hand and lefties need not apply). Why is it no longer desirable to employ a variety of shots?



I think to some extent this is inevitable. It isn't that people want simplicity, it's that today's plastic and talent requires longer courses. The same as there are some wide open short courses, there are going to be some wide open boomer courses. Obviously, a better designer is going to put courses in that challenge every aspect of the game. This includes multiple shot selection, right and left finishes, rollers and distance shots. On the other hand, you develop those areas that are available and sometimes what's available isn't that great.

Take a look at 2003 Worlds; the final 9 covered it all. Tight shots, tricky shots, overhand opportunities, everything but a roller hole. On the other hand, 2004 Worlds had an average final 9; big open fields with few really challenging holes (not that it was easy, just that it wasn't up to the standard set in Arizona - the final 9 in Iowa also was not typical of what occurred during the week). The reality is that poor course design will continue well into the future and in all likelihood will never dissappear (take a look at ball golf). The only way to limit it is by participating and pushing for better.

I must agree that pull carts and caddies are not what I'm about. Disc golf is as much about the hiking and enjoying nature as it is heaving your plastic around. A pull cart is a joke to me. If you need that much crap to enjoy a round or two of DG then your whacked, in my humble opinion.




I have a huge gripe about a trend I see playing out in disc golf: the tendency to duplicate the stuff that's done in ball golf.

What originally drew me to the sport (and I am still very new to it) is how similar it is to ball golf and yet how different it is. I like the fact that I can throw from 3-foot tall grass where 3-foot grass in play on a ball course would be reason to ask for your money back. I like that I have not only many different discs to choose from, but many different ways to throw them; hyzer, anhyzer, tomahawk, roller, etc.

But I am seeing pictures in dg magazines that show golfers using caddies. Ok that�s cool, I guess. I have seen pictures of people using pull-carts on some web sites - whatever suits your fancy. But what really blew my mind was a course web site that stated, �We have a par 72 course � JUST LIKE A REGULAR BALL COURSE.� Now I have to draw the line...

Copycat sports rarely work and I do not want dg to become one of them. In football there was the pathetic XFL and the pointless USFL. Arena Football on the other hand is derived from football but has been around for 20 years because it doesn�t try to be like the NFL! The AFL formulates rules and does certain things because it�s good for their particular sport and not because that�s the way the NFL is doing it. All I ask is that people who are designing courses, planning events, changing rules or other things try to keep my point in mind. I think the vast majority of people who are in those decision making positions are doing a good job of avoiding this tragedy but every once in a while I see the urge to make it �like ball golf� creeping in.

I have no issue in using lessons learned from the well-established ball golf world but let�s do everything we can to keep this great sport unique.



-Dave

Well, I generally think of tired old guys when I see pull carts. :p

BUT, there have been many times when I've needed lots of water, an umbrella, a stool to sit on, and of course my discs. During those times, those lame ***** carts look pretty appealing. :D

no they don't

anyone under 40 are not allowed to use pull carts. :mad:
anyone over 40 are allowed and ENCOURAGED to use pull carts. :D

Welcome to Fly 18 bigger and better than any park. ;)

Par 4's and 5's are GREAT. DG should be played with a higher par than 54.

My course was designed by an old man (me) and I made sure to leave lots of stumps all over with the top cut around chair seat height. Nobody needs to bring a stool, there are stumps everywhere to sit on.

And plenty more stumps to rest your beer on. I made sure to cut all stumps level for beers.

I dont think an "old man" is correct while defining a transvestite. :D:D

Here's my 25 cents worth...

I would hate for disc golf to become like ball golf in a couple of ways.

I wouldn't want it to be expensive to play and I wouldn't want disc golfers to be anal the way ball golfers are. One of the things that I like about disc golf is that the players I know are pretty easy going.

As for courses... I think it's great that there is a variety. I tend to like par 4's and 5's because I see them as birdie opportunities. I don't like extremely long holes tho. You can have a par 5 that's not 1000 feet. Of course I don't throw it a long way. If someone wants to make a course with 1000 foot holes let them, just keep the other courses in operation for the rest of us.

The courses need to be better marked. I have been to some courses that are impossible to follow... Two Rivers in Nashville and Basil Griffin in Bowling Green are two examples. The map at Basil Griffin must have been drawn by someone on LSD as it bears little relation to reality.

In addition, benches at each tee are a nice convenience.

As for carts... Come on... I am 48 and I would never take a pull-cart or a driveable cart. Good grief. Part of the appeal of the game is exercise.

Regarding woods, once again a matter of taste. I like courses with strategically placed trees like Kereiakes in Bowling Green. I don't like densely wooded courses.

The coolest course I've played is Jefferson Barracks in St. Louis. And then there's the course where I first played 20 odd years ago, Iroqouis Park in Louisville. I played in a tournament there with a Mold 80 disc in about 1983.

Forgive the digression LOL....

Don't knock pulling a cart until you've tried it for a few rounds when the temperature is over 100. It's like having a caddy and an advantage on most long courses during the summer.

Or during the rainy season when you need to carry rain gear in addition to your chair, aspirin, disc retreiver, extra water, bug repellant, and other equally necessary items. :cool:

Pushing a cart for years, and I'll never go back to a bag.

"I wouldn't want it to be expensive to play"

Agreed. The Red Hawk in Crystal River, FL is $5 or $10 with a cart. A sweet deal for a very fun, challenging course.

"I wouldn't want disc golfers to be anal the way ball golfers are."

Too late. Disc golfers are people too and there are plenty on the retentive side. I was at the oppening of the former fly-18 course in Houston in '03. The city of Houston had asked Reese about the viability of charging $2 a round to play at Moffit Park. Reese was discussing the idea with some locals at the event who were adamantly against it. One guy said, "I will never pay to play in a park. If they make that course pay to play, I will go in there at night and rip all the baskets out of the ground." Talk about being inflexible.

"If someone wants to make a course with 1000 foot holes let them, just keep the other courses in operation for the rest of us."

The Red Hawk has three sets of tees. If you think the blues are too long, then enjoy a round from the whites.

"The courses need to be better marked . . . In addition, benches at each tee are a nice convenience."

Agreed, agreed, agreed . . . if you're pitching a course to a park, PLEASE include multiple sets of cement tees, quality signs, trash cans, benches, etc. in your proposal. At least let the parks know that these amenities are highly recommended and can make the difference between a successful disc golf course that attracts a lot of play and removes negative elements from the park and one that becomes a dilapidated eyesore. Waaay too many courses have been lowball pitched with the "plan" that they'll have fundraiser tournaments for the "extras" later.

" I would never take a pull-cart or a driveable cart. Good grief. Part of the appeal of the game is exercise."

i have a friend that was paralyzed in a diving accident in the late '90's. his first year back playing just grabbing onto the disc was difficult. he loaded down a push baby carriage to help him maintain balance and develop strength. i see him every six months or so and it's been amazing to see his progress.

One guy said, "I will never pay to play in a park. If they make that course pay to play, I will go in there at night and rip all the baskets out of the ground."



what a Jack A S S!

Love those Moffitt Rats... Of course, doing that would require effort, so it wouldn't actually happen as it would cut into his drinking time.

Well, I'm sure he would come out one night with all of the tools needed and the intentions of digging up all of the baskets.

Or come out one night and walk around the course contemplating digging up all of the baskets.

Or stay home and think about going out to dig up all of the baskets.

Or just stay home and mumble something about it.

I believe that disc golf will loose some of its luster if it doesn�t maintain its uniqueness.
Thanks again...
-DaveB


You've got it Dave!! Before something can become it's own publicly it needs to have it's own identity. Riding on the coat tails of the PGA will NEVER accomplish our goals for respect, funding, publicity, etc.. Why? Because we are a BALL GOLFERS JOKE in passing at the club house. We MUST keep our unique properties and culture to prevail. We have already fallen into the trap of copying the PGA, thats what people don't get. I mean, look at the PDGA logo? It has all the properties of a PGA look and feel. When we have to wear colored shirts, have cadies, and hide the REAL DG culture behind some PGA political mask, we loose respect because of our lack of integrity amongst the ones who appreciate and participate in this great sport. On top of that, we're trying to attract an audience (PGA) that doesn't relate to us. It's a waste of time and money on our part, and it's too bad that we can't seem to make it work with a unique branding campaign that shows our true culture!!


Welcome to Fly 18 bigger and better than any park


Whatever dude? If you call throwing a disc into an open manicured field the future, then I quit!!! I think what your doing is a good publicity campaign for DG, THATS IT! Nothing more then getting the awareness out to more people, which is great that you've found a way to do it and fund it all in one venture. What people don't think about is all the local club money you take out of their pockets by being the sole provider of disc sales, basket sales, etc. after installation. We don't need to push DG in ball golf courses more then we need to support our local clubs. That I know for sure!!

Par 3's = 1/3- 2/3 puting
Par 4's =1/4 driving 1/4 laying up 1/2 putting
par 5's = 2/5 driving 1/5 laying up 2/5 putting
Get the picture? :D
The balance of having par 3's, 4's and 5's on each course has to make it a better game.
Well, probably not for the non athletic players, great putters and players who can only throw 250', but I'm thinking courses that require you to use all of your discs in your bag is a natural evolution of the game and somethng needed to keep up with the disc technology.
Do you think high speed drivers are meant for players to throw 200 feet?

There are plenty of par 3 courses already in the ground, so I wouldnt worry to much about them going anywhere soon.
Hey if you dont like playing par 4's DONT go to that type of course or better yet design and install you own little pars 3s so you can go neg 7 every round!

Well theres one thing for sure that will never go away in disc golf its called COMPLAINING!!!!

Does someone actually have some constructive criticism about par 4 golf or is it just I cant throw that far?

BTW,
Theres a big difference between real par 4 type holes and blaster par 3 and a halves.
It really depends on the course designers.

LONG LIVE OZARK MOUNTAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if its length that makes it a par 4 then the hole stinks. if its the impossiblility of getting form the tee to the putt in one shot, then its a good hole. as you said - DESIGN!

i'd rather play a 500 foot par 4 than makes me throw a precise shot off the tee to a landing zone, then bend a turnover to a point that gives me a 100' putt/approach than a 900 footer that lets me go boom boom up and in.

par 4's and 5's should not (always) require a huge arm, just a rock solid game.

I totally agree with you Dave, just don't make them par 4's because of distance? Make them par 4's because of obstacles and distance which equals awesome golf. Golf is a game of intellegence as well as athletic ability in my oppinion. Make me think off the tee on every hole and I love it!!! Souix Passage/Edincott are awsome for that reason so I know you know what I'm talking about. Ball golf is open, disc golf is not. I never got to play the Ozark course, it was before my time, but I'd bet it wasn't a ball golf course; it was a disc golf course?

Par 3's = 1/3- 2/3 puting
Par 4's =1/4 driving 1/4 laying up 1/2 putting
par 5's = 2/5 driving 1/5 laying up 2/5 putting
Get the picture?
The balance of having par 3's, 4's and 5's on each course has to make it a better game.
Well, probably not for the non athletic players, great putters and players who can only throw 250', but I'm thinking courses that require you to use all of your discs in your bag is a natural evolution of the game and somethng needed to keep up with the disc technology.
Do you think high speed drivers are meant for players to throw 200 feet?




I agree 100% !! I for one would rather choose to use my roc to lay up than becase the hole is so close it's only logical. I don't think making par 4 or 5 courses has anything to do with ball golf. Ozark and courses of the such is where this game is going even if many who started this game disagree...that's where it is going. I think long, but not just long...it should take two solid shots and a solid putt not "oww I threw that bad but hey I still have a putt at it"..these courses will still be around but we need more scratching awat for par courses, that's how golf was intended, may nor be as exciting as 13 under to some but I get much more peasure out of making a 4 on a difficult hole than a 2 on a par 3....

Jay

Harry,
So your a film maker huh?
What about Video?
Do you have an editing suite or good access to one?

Yep, I sure do. I have a fully uncompressed 4:4:4 Final Cut Pro HD editing suite at home and work. I've got HD, DV, 16mm, 35mm, Beta SP access for mediums to shoot in. You looking for that kind of expertise? Shoot me an email... [email protected]

You are making comments on something you have not played on harry.Options are nice ,better to have and not want ,than to want and not have....CO OP BUSINESS works for all ,we get more for less.Fly 18 will continue to build disc golfs premier courses, where ever that may be.It was a pleasure playing with you at Treasure Cove . ;)I hope you all are enjoying the course....

I enjoyed playing with you to bro, nothing personal on the post, just business. :D

You are making comments on something you have not played on harry.Options are nice ,better to have and not want ,than to want and not have....CO OP BUSINESS works for all ,we get more for less.Fly 18 will continue to build disc golfs premier courses, where ever that may be.It was a pleasure playing with you at Treasure Cove . ;)I hope you all are enjoying the course....



I have played two Fly 18's and I agree with Aaron. The sad part is that I kill most peoploe on those courses because of the "D" but I still don't really care for them.

Aaron welcome to the board. :D

I played that Treasure Cove course a few times. It's pretty good in places and surprisingly bad in others. "Surprisingly" because there is absolutely no reason that the entire course can't kick [I'm a potty-mouth!]. There is so much potential that is unrealized and a few holes that are just plain hazardous.

Totally, that course could've been GREAT! It still can, it just needs a redesign and the man realizing what REAL DG is. They're already making modifications...

Then why dont any of the pros shoot 9 under???

I played that Treasure Cove course a few times. It's pretty good in places and surprisingly bad in others. "Surprisingly" because there is absolutely no reason that the entire course can't kick [I'm a potty-mouth!]. There is so much potential that is unrealized and a few holes that are just plain hazardous.



I got to play this course in early September. I thought it was a great property and was excited to play it. In general, it's a decent course with a few things that could be tweaked to make it better.

-I wish the tees were set flush with the ground instead of 4" above.
-There are a couple of "tweener" holes in the 410-460' distance that could be improved by making them either a more reasonable par 3 or longer by about 100'+ for a legit par 4.
-Holes 1 and 18 cross fairways
-a few holes bring parked cars and a ball court into play
-I wish the woods could have been used more.
-The tee for #13 could use steps or some type of climbing aid to get up the steep slope or provide an alternate tee for those who can't make the climb.

The Good Stuff:
-I like the locking system for the baskets, enabling leaving the poles in the ground and just moving the basket and chain hanger.
-The proximity to the student union (cafeteria) brings good visibility to the course.
-The available elevation is used pretty well.

I have to agree that the course isn't living up to its full potential as it is now. But it is the best thing around in that area.

Steve Kenton #11895
Iowa Coordinator
DGCD #569

Then why dont any of the pros shoot 9 under???



I'm not sure what score has to do with quality of the course.

Then why dont any of the pros shoot 9 under???



I'm not sure what score has to do with quality of the course.



Because some people (not all) are stuck on the par 3 mentality.

Hole 13 is a par 4.Hole 1 and 18 are not crossing they are over 1,000 ft away?Hole 1 and 10 are side by side and not crossing.This course was designed for college students and pros.The reason for not going into the woods is the underbrush was the worst I have ever seen.Players would loose lots of discs, and shed lots of blood, and also get poision oak.I was thinking of the students ,with a backpack ,and sandels and 1 disc, with girlfriend. Chris S shoots -11 at USDGC and he he cant get to -5 at CB?The pads were designed for winter play, and rain ,and to keep away from the mowers, and be visiable.I did enjoy this course.

Hole 13 is a par 4.

And it's not a bad hole. I just had a problem with the tee area being hard to get to.


Hole 1 and 18 are not crossing they are over 1,000 ft away?Hole 1 and 10 are side by side and not crossing.

Sorry. I meant 1 and 10 crossed each other, which they definitely do.


This course was designed for college students and pros.The reason for not going into the woods is the underbrush was the worst I have ever seen.

We deal with underbrush all the time around here. You just have to be adept with a saw.


Players would loose lots of discs, and shed lots of blood, and also get poision oak.

Overly dramatic, but OK. These are all things that have been designed around before. It just takes a little extra time and effort. I just thought a few woods holes would have added more variety.


Chris S shoots -11 at USDGC and he he cant get to -5 at CB?

Apples and oranges. Again, score is not an indicator of course quality.


The pads were designed for winter play, and rain ,and to keep away from the mowers, and be visiable.I did enjoy this course.

How is a pad that is 4" above grade safe from the mower? Now the mower is going to bump into the edges of the pad instead of driving right over it. Plus, they'll have to come back with a trimmer to get the grass that the mower missed. The hazard to the thrower is obvious from tripping on the approach and slipping over the front edge when driving. Maybe it is a good pad for the winter. But it's horrible for the summer, when people are actually playing the course.

My impression of the course is that it was done very quickly. I think the course is pretty good when considering individual holes and how they are sited in the landscape. The use of OB is very effective. However, it seems that little consideration was given to the fact that most of that OB area is where people congregate or park their cars.

So that whole thing about poison oak was your worry, I thought it was the client?? I think your a good guy man but I think you have a few things to learn about golf in the midwest. Most of us are immune to poison ivy which is really whats down there, but regardless, that is no excuse to not use the woods. All the courses out here started like that and it hasn't stopped anybody even for a second? Believe me when I say that is the norm out here bro. I do understand that you had limited time to work with and to skip putting holes where there was that much work involved was probably smart on your part? But if us locals had done the work, there would DEFFINATELY be holes in the woods. Just about every course I've played in this year has had those dangers. I'll take nettle/poison ivy, over those nasty looking tree spiders any day. I'm telling you this with CA blood, born and raised up until 5 years ago. I wish I had known that was the case!?

I'm telling you this with CA blood, born and raised up until 5 years ago.



What's CA got to do with anything?

Relating to flyboy

I've come to disassociate myself with Flyboy's 14-disc limit maxim, as I view [allegorically] the body as the club, and the discs as balls [target-seeking objects]...just so it's one-disc-at-a-time, that's fine. ;)

It was 14 white discs when he started, IIRC.

:eek: :o

i also disagree with the 14 disc idea, but for the reason that having more than 14 discs is not an advantage unless the course has water on every shot. every pro golfer has to make some club sacrifice decisions to make the 14 club limit.

the " the body as the club, and the discs as balls" analogy, however would mean that we can only carry one particular mold of disc, since golfers may not use two different types of golf balls within a round. i believe that the balls must even be the same #.

...since golfers may not use two different types of golf balls within a round. i believe that the balls must even be the same #.


Nope. Just needs to be the same brand/type. They recommend, however, that each player put an identifying mark on each ball to aid in identification during a round

Rhett it was 14 discs, but not only white ,only in the pro shop.You must make decisions before you tee off,this is part of course prepreation.When we have played events ,at my courses ,and a golfer asks how many discs do you carry?We say 14 for tournement play ,they say just like our clubs.Player will also be stroked for extra discs, like clubs ,one stroke per disc per hole.You can say ,golfers dont throw thier clubs in the water ,neither should we.This was a decision we made, and a gamble we took.Risk and reward....Rhett you played your first par 5 3,000 miles away.When you had 4 par 5s in your back yard ,and chose to not play it at all ,thanks for your support.And how did you buy, beg ,or brown nose your way in to usdgc????Did you sell your hair to a cancer clinic :o

No, that was our Sweeney...Patrick. ;)

Rhett it was 14 discs, but not only white ,only in the pro shop.

I said I thought it was white discs only. (IIRC = If I Recall Correctly)



....Rhett you played your first par 5 3,000 miles away.

That is incorrect. I have played the par 5 hole #3 at U.S. Masters a bunch of times in the park at La Mirada.



When you had 4 par 5s in your back yard ,and chose to not play it at all ,thanks for your support.

Support is a two way street, Reese. You are consistently a d!ck towards anything that is not Fly18-exclusive. You do not support disc golf in SoCal. You constantly go to events only to whine and cry that they were held in a park when you knew they were going to be in a park when you signed up.

Also, as far as not supporting disc golf, you are the one who chose not to sponsor one of the big events at the LaMa long layout (was it Golden State Classic or U.S. Masters?) and then chose to put a giant Fly18 sign up at tee one after choosing not to sponsor. What the heck kind of support is that, Reese?

It's a two way street. Show some frickin' support and you might see some in return.

I was in no hurry to get out to Mission Trails, and I never made it out there before it closed. Oh well. $30+ bucks and a 5 hour round just didn't sound that inviting, and a mid-week opportunity that I chose to use at MT never came up. My loss, I guess. I kinda wanted to play that course once, but oh well. Many golfers who I respect as long throwers who should've loved that course told me they didn't like it, so I didn't make it a priority. Add in the abuse and crap that many disc golfers reported from the pro shop staff and it really didn't seem like a big deal to not give them my money. My choice.



And how did you buy, beg ,or brown nose your way in to usdgc????Did you sell your hair to a cancer clinic :o

I support disc golf. If you did the same, instead of only looking for ways to get over, you would be able to figure out exactly how I got an invite. It was very straightforward, Reese. No buying, begging, or reese-nosing involved.

And how did you buy, beg ,or brown nose your way in to usdgc????Did you sell your hair to a cancer clinic :o

I support disc golf. If you did the same, instead of only looking for ways to get over, you would be able to figure out exactly how I got an invite. It was very straightforward, Reese. No buying, begging, or reese-nosing involved.



i gave him my spot otherwise he would have never gotten in
:eek:

Welcome to Fly 18 bigger and better than any park. ;)



Thanks for the laugh, I needed it.

Fairy cakes and hearing aids - neither of them anaesthetise me.

Reese...

Please don't ever come to NC to put in a course. We LOVE our park system here, and for the amount of ***** you talk about park-DG, I think your reception here would be equally as profane.

When you want to see REAL disc golf, come to the woods of NC, where distance is just one of the aspects of a complete player.

All disc golf is REAL disc golf..........Pitch and putt all the way to Fly 18. If your throwing a disc on a course its real. The REAL players can play them all. Your tight roc shot woodes courses in NC are real golf and Reeses long open courses are real golf (although I believe that having to put together 3 or more quality shots per hole and not just a drive and a putt is more challenging) its all REAL golf.

This is exactly why disc golf isnt going ANYWHERE right now. Its because instead of everyone working together to further the sport we have a bunch of different groups working against eachother and bashing eachother because they think their idea is the best and dont want anything to do with anyone elses idea.

I have a novel idea. How about we take input from EVERYONE and take the good part of EVERYONES ideas and blend them together into one AWESOME IDEA and market that.

Now if there was only a website where we could do that???

I think I know of one but im not sure...........Maybe ill ask Grunion. He might know :eek:

This is exactly why disc golf isnt going ANYWHERE right now.



This statement is just plain wrong and insulting to all the hundreds of people that devote thankless hours to getting courses installed, running leagues and tournaments, and playing damage control PR-wise because of the infantile actions of a few bad apples.

i do have ideas on how i'd like to see the future of the sport proceed and i'm putting the rubber to the pavement to, hopefully, make a small impact on that future. one thing for certain, though, is that i wouldn't be doing any of it if i didn't find it to be a lot of fun to throw golf discs, to talk about throwing golf discs, and to live in the "now" of disc golf.

just for fun, here is a comparison of the looong history of golf vs. the short history of disc golf:


HISTORY OF GOLF (550+ years) HISTORY OF DISC GOLF (50+ years)

1452 King James II of Scotland bans the playing of the game because it is keeping his subjects from their archery practice.

1954 The Pluto Platter is unveiled with the words "Play Catch; Invent Games" engraved on the back.

1471 King James III of Scotland reaffirms the ban on golf.

1964 "Steady" Ed brings the modern Frisbee to market.

1491 King James IV of Scotland reaffirms the ban on golf.

1975 "Steady" Ed invents the Disc Pole Hole, installs the first course Oak Grove Park, Pasadena, CA, and forms the PDGA.

1502 50 years into the recorded history of golf King James IV repeals the ban on the game of golf and takes up the game.The first-recorded sale of a golf ball takes place.

1977 The first PDGA tournaments are held simultaneously in Northern New Jersey and Mobile, Alabama, the modern era of disc golf competition begins.

1618 King James VI of Scotland grants his subjects the right to play golf on Sundays.

1982 Harold Duvall wins the first Pro World Championship in Irvine, CA

1659 Golf is banned from the streets of Albany, N.Y. This is the first known reference to golf in America.

1983 Dave Dunipace patents the first beveled-edge golf disc and forms Innova.

1744 The Gentleman Golfers of Leith (later renamed the Honorable Company of Edinburgh Golfers) produces the first known written rules of golf.

1984 Disc Golf World News begins publication; the first magazine for disc golf

1754 The St. Andrews Society of Golfers (later to become known as the Royal & Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews) is formed.

1987 Ken Climo joins the PDGA

1767 James Durham plays the St. Andrews links in 94 strokes, a record that will stand for nearly a century.

1993 Lavone Wolfe establishes the PDGA Hall Of Fame. Dave Dunipace is among the first inductees to the Hall of Fame. The PDGA begins to chronicle the history of disc golf.

1810 First known women's tournament held at Musselburgh, Scotland.

1996 3,904 current PDGA members play in 235 events with a total combined pro purse of $368,800. Over 600 total permanent courses worldwide.

1819 Earliest known reference to a professional tournament. It's an event played, of course, at St. Andrews.

1998 The inaugural United States Disc Golf Championship is held in Rock Hill, SC. Ken Climo is the first to win and be crowned the U.S. Champion

1950 The Ladies Professional Golf Association (LPGA) is established

2001 Fly-18 installs the first permanent disc golf course on a ball golf course in Titusville, FL.

1953 The Tam O'Shanter World Championship, played near Chicago, is the first golf event to televised nationally

2004 Ken Climo wins his 4th USDGC and $10,000

1954 Arnold Palmer makes his professional debut in the Miami Open.

2004 8,575 current PDGA members play in 603 events with a total combined pro purse of $1,316,800. Over 1,700 total permanent courses worldwide.

1997 Tiger Woods' first major championship comes with a 12-stroke win at The Masters.

2005 The Players Cup is born! Mike Randolph, Cameron Todd, Dagon Owen, or Nathan Doss will take home the $10,000 first place!

Very informative, thanks for doing that.

Cam Todd winning the Players Cup is a reach...he never plays anymore plus he didn't even play Rock Hill which is close to where he lives.

I have not heard anything about Randolph this season either.

if its length that makes it a par 4 then the hole stinks. if its the impossiblility of getting form the tee to the putt in one shot, then its a good hole. as you said - DESIGN!

i'd rather play a 500 foot par 4 than makes me throw a precise shot off the tee to a landing zone, then bend a turnover to a point that gives me a 100' putt/approach than a 900 footer that lets me go boom boom up and in.

par 4's and 5's should not (always) require a huge arm, just a rock solid game.


Play Highbridge Hills!!

This statement is just plain wrong and insulting to all the hundreds of people that devote thankless hours to getting courses installed, running leagues and tournaments, and playing damage control PR-wise because of the infantile actions of a few bad apples.

i do have ideas on how i'd like to see the future of the sport proceed and i'm putting the rubber to the pavement to, hopefully, make a small impact on that future. one thing for certain, though, is that i wouldn't be doing any of it if i didn't find it to be a lot of fun to throw golf discs, to talk about throwing golf discs, and to live in the "now" of disc golf.




Maybe I should have said Disc golf isnt going where I think it should be as quickly as it should be because there are so many people out there working against eachother. I did not mean to offend all the people that do long hard work for disc golf. Everyone who does something I appreciate I just hate the fact that most of the people who are trying to forward the sport are working against eachother and not together.

Sorry that I didnt express that in the first post. I am sorry if I offended you in any way. Hopefully I will be able to get work off and come down to play the Players Cup :D

thanks for the clarification. i do agree that some of our bigger players in the biz side of the game spend too much time worrying about how to make their piece of the pie bigger than their competitor's and not enough time trying to bake a bigger pie.

hope that you're able to make it down to represent from the wolverine state. any word on any other players from up there planning on signing up: martin, branch, schack, stephens, raley, dischick, etc?

Im tryin to get Scott Slater to travel down there with me. Kevin "I throw way to many Thumbers" Tomasiatis will be down there as he got an invite for his 2nd place finish at USADGC. So if I can get the work off him and I will be down there for sure, and hopefully we will be bringing Slater with us as well.

So if I can get the work off him and I will be down there for sure



Earlier in the year you were planning on being at The Players Cup if you qualified. Now that reg. is open for all, THIS is your chance! I'll see you there!

You could live by one of MaceMan's motto....."Quit your job, play disc golf." Actually, i'd rather you not. The last thing this sport needs is more unemployed pimps and playas! :D

Earlier in the year you were planning on being at The Players Cup if you qualified. Now that reg. is open for all, THIS is your chance! I'll see you there!

You could live by one of MaceMan's motto....."Quit your job, play disc golf." Actually, i'd rather you not. The last thing this sport needs is more unemployed pimps and playas!



The best part about the whole thing is I can go down and play the Playas Cup, cash, accept and still play 2006 AM Worlds in Tulsa :eek: :D

LMAO! :D

If you cash in an open division at the P.C. and accept cash, how could you then play am Worlds in Tulsa? Is the players cup not sanctioned?

If you cash in an open division at the P.C. and accept cash, how could you then play am Worlds in Tulsa? Is the players cup not sanctioned?



:eek: :eek: :eek: :D:D:D

We are the urine-soaked water-buffalos. We are here to protect you from the albino Dragon 32 of Steve Mills.

Playing Disc Golf on Ball golf courses is above exceptional.

Those that don't like it , usually have issues with course management.

Playing with a Golf cart is the best , Especially on a long course.

Besides , sponsors will show up at a Real course , before a park event. Most sponsors , hardly come back to park events.

sponsors will show up at a Real course , before a park event. Most sponsors , hardly come back to park events.



i have enjoyed playing fly-18 courses and do believe that a few golf courses have the potential to double as awesome disc golf courses. at the present time i do not, however, agree with your statement about sponsorship.

one of the best displays i have seen of obtaining sponsorship was the texas 10 events i played in 2003. that year the tour was sponsored by ziegenbach. 10 events in parks, 0 on golf courses.

in the long run golf courses do have several advantages that may make it easier to attract big sponsors: room for spectators, grounds crew on site, staff that is used to running big golf tournaments, already established relationships with local media, etc.

one of the best displays i have seen of obtaining sponsorship was the texas 10 events i played in 2003. that year the tour was sponsored by ziegenbach. 10 events in parks, 0 on golf courses.


You just made Donny's point because Ziegenbach and Budweiser did not return as sponsors. Or at least not anywhere near that same level.

rhett, does this mean that you've joined forces with flyboy?

rhett, does this mean that you've joined forces with flyboy?


<font size="5">HE<font color="black">L</font>L NO!!!!!!!!!!!!</font>

rhett, does this mean that you've joined forces with flyboy?


<font size="5">HE<font color="black">L</font>L NO!!!!!!!!!!!!</font>




Now that is funny. All I know is that Reese won't have any support from Houston anymore. :o

Dont forget about US masters in CA, we had michelob and they were told to remove all banners.The facts are hard to swallow. Rhett every time you drive to EI you support me.Think about life before EI ,your drive to morley blood shed park. I hear houston has lost thier cart priviliges :o:confused:...Where are the sponsers banners at usdgc?Rolled up till next year....How much is hours of adtervising worth????I do have nothing but respect for Harrold, and Jonathan ,they have done an awsome job, with what they have to work with.Rhett you deserve a handfull of DUCK BUTTER to the face... :D

one of the best displays i have seen of obtaining sponsorship was the texas 10 events i played in 2003. that year the tour was sponsored by ziegenbach. 10 events in parks, 0 on golf courses.


You just made Donny's point because Ziegenbach and Budweiser did not return as sponsors. Or at least not anywhere near that same level.



Not getting them back as sponsors this year had nothing to do with disc golf, who played, where we played etc. It was purely beer war politics.

It also had to do with the stupid alcohol laws in Texas in regards to money.

There are plenty of other companies that are on my radar for the future.

By the way it's spelt...ZiegenBock. :cool:

one of the best displays i have seen of obtaining sponsorship was the texas 10 events i played in 2003. that year the tour was sponsored by ziegenbach. 10 events in parks, 0 on golf courses.


You just made Donny's point because Ziegenbach and Budweiser did not return as sponsors. Or at least not anywhere near that same level.



Not getting them back as sponsors this year had nothing to do with disc golf, who played, where we played etc. It was purely beer war politics.

It also had to do with the stupid alcohol laws in Texas in regards to money.

There are plenty of other companies that are on my radar for the future.

By the way it's spelt...ZiegenBock. :cool:



Crack open a twelve pack of Boulevard Unfiltered Wheat! Now THAT'S a sponsor!

Dont forget about US masters in CA, we had michelob and they were told to remove all banners.The facts are hard to swallow. Rhett every time you drive to EI you support me.Think about life before EI ,your drive to morley blood shed park. I hear houston has lost thier cart priviliges :o:confused:...Where are the sponsers banners at usdgc?Rolled up till next year....How much is hours of adtervising worth????I do have nothing but respect for Harrold, and Jonathan ,they have done an awsome job, with what they have to work with.Rhett you deserve a handfull of DUCK BUTTER to the face... :D



Only some people lost their cart privledges. Also I can kill that course but I still don't enjoy it all that much dues to the fact that it is very open.

I like that it is quiet out there! So when does the pool go in?

Caddie Day
Caddies welcome 1:00-1:15

Dont forget about US masters in CA, we had michelob and they were told to remove all banners.The facts are hard to swallow. Rhett every time you drive to EI you support me.Think about life before EI ,your drive to morley blood shed park. I hear houston has lost thier cart priviliges :o:confused:...Where are the sponsers banners at usdgc?Rolled up till next year....How much is hours of adtervising worth????I do have nothing but respect for Harrold, and Jonathan ,they have done an awsome job, with what they have to work with.Rhett you deserve a handfull of DUCK BUTTER to the face... :D



Only some people lost their cart privledges. Also I can kill that course but I still don't enjoy it all that much dues to the fact that it is very open.



On the Ball golf courses I have played on , the Ball golfers have been cool to me. They are still amazed at the distance , golf discs fly. :D

i agree that the vast, vast majority of golfers are open to and many are excited by disc golf. every once in a while a golfer is a bit jerky, but that guy is jerky to everyone, not just disc golfers.

Why did you quote that post, Donny? Your comments had nothing to do with the quoted text! What the heck is up with you lately? It seems like you only post to start trouble.

And reese must have a mouse in his pocket, because he didn't do [I'm a potty-mouth!] to help with U.S. Masters yet he says "we" when he talks about organizational aspects of it.

There you go Donny. You wanted to start trouble and it worked.

Why did you quote that post, Donny? Your comments had nothing to do with the quoted text! What the heck is up with you lately? It seems like you only post to start trouble.

And reese must have a mouse in his pocket, because he didn't do [I'm a potty-mouth!] to help with U.S. Masters yet he says "we" when he talks about organizational aspects of it.

There you go Donny. You wanted to start trouble and it worked.



im glad im not the only one who has seen this,not very becoming of the Donny i know :confused:

Rhett I was a coustomer. And when I say we that is all of us.Please dont forget why you had a position there were 4 people who started SOCAL Tim S., Larry Bell , Loren ,god bless him, and Me..If you run events for 2 more years you will catch up with me.You were just seeding your hair at that time.Now you are full grown Repunsell....Throw stones as you may, I have dodged bolders my hole life....Vision Purpose Fly 18 at god speed.... :)

Keep up the PR campaign Flyboy but don't think your going to ever replace a beautiful mountain course that requires actual skill. The people that really get it will never let that happen. I say again disc golf as a professional sport is a combination of the ability to visulize the shot, make intellegent decisions, and have the skill to execute. Not come up to the tee and throw as hard as you can into an open field. Hello, the reason ball golf is open is because they HIT A 2 inch ball with a stick!

That being said I support your cause because of the pricless exposure you give us. The one thing I'd ask of you is to help the local clubs and not dip into their purse. The ODGC for instance built the first DG course here in Omaha by a member raffling his mint condition 1976 Dodge Dart. We uphold that type of commitment and depend on disc sales for revenue, you hearing me?

Rhett I was a coustomer.


Then be a "counsoumer" and vote with your dollars. You should only play tournaments that are run by Fly18 because you are the only one who knows how and where to do it right, right?

don't think your going to ever replace a beautiful mountain course that requires actual skill . . . Not come up to the tee and throw as hard as you can into an open field . . . The one thing I'd ask of you is to help the local clubs and not dip into their purse.



no one (reese included) believes that disc golf on golf courses will replace other types of disc golf. the beauty is that there are more and more choices for disc golfers everyday. if you don't like fly-18 courses, then don't play them.

having said that, i believe that very few golf courses can also be great disc golf courses. i definitely am opposed to designs where you need to throw 450+ in order to have a chance to win. our layout at The Red Hawk gives the long throwers that are willing to gamble several opportunities to take advantage of their d. someone, however, could throw max 350 and win the tournament. we'll see in a couple short weeks what some of the game's top players say about the course during The Players Cup.

i definitely disagree with the notion that reese is harming local clubs by installing another disc golf option in the community. he is not "dipping into their purse".

Can we say left field :confused:Fly 18 is not trying to be a park ,it is my version of disc golf.Once again Mr putter ,you have not played any of my courses.I think you need to build your first one, there is lots of work before you dig a hole..Fly 18 is option B we have 1,500 option As.Both options are growing..I know of 6 courses on golf courses that are not fly 18 and thier version of it...It is still the fewest strokes from point A to point B that wins...VP

I gotcha, and I'm glad to here that.

As far as dipping into their purse, it depends on how you look at it. When Fly 18 is supplying a courses with disc inventory then it puts a dent in the local market right? Wether it's by selling a disc to someone who buys one that is playing a Fly 18 course or by being the wholesaler for the course itself. Thats what I'm talking about.

hey Mitch , do fly pads still suck? ;)

oh yes "flypads still suck"...unless they are wet,then they slip :o

oh yes "flypads still suck"...unless they are wet,then they slip :o



I agree , my knee will probably never be the same!! freakin ACL!!!! :confused:

Can we say left field Fly 18 is not trying to be a park


Alright, the relation is that disc golf becoming a piggy back sport is a bad idea. I'm merely stating that disc golf is it's own sport and should always be embraced as such. Parks or private land designed to be a disc golf course are done so with unique factors such as trees, cliffs, streams, poison ivy, elevation, etc., etc.. These These things are our sand traps in relation to golf. A ball golf course is designed for balls that you hit with a stick. They are two completely different things. Not to sound condensending, but in my strong oppinion the real sport of disc golf does not belong in a ball golf fairway. In fact, I feel that PDGA sanctioned competitions do not belong on a ball golf fairway.

Now, if there were two completly different area's at a standard country club/public golf course where one could play disc golf through the terrain it needs, and ball golf on the terrain IT needs, than that would be cool!

Sounds like that horse needs to go to pasture :oBirds of a feather flock together......Mr putter, selling discs at the proshop is part of how I make money, and provide a service.Like used discs ,and rental discs, most of my discs are usaly $1 or 2 over what you would pay in a park.Most park sales are ileagal, no vendors licence ,no taxes and so on.The coustomer has options, show up on thursday between 2 and 5 pm, and there will be a brown toyota at the end of the lot ,with out of town tags,he has some discs that he will sell you, his name is Bubba :eek:Or come any day ,7 days a week ,between 6am ,and sunset, and pick what you need.And then there is the internet...24 hrs.

I gotcha, the internet is one thing at least you have to ship internet purchases so we have the generation ADHD need it now as a selling point. Bubba is only around for a few days, fly 18 is around for the life of the course. Why not make a deal with local clubs and put wholesalers on the hot seat, instead of us. We can help you sell more discs because we can market eye to eye.

Can you say vegas i say las...In 4 hrs lots of gambeling and discing have a graet weekend wherever you play.Fly on ;)

Now, if there were two completly different area's at a standard country club/public golf course where one could play disc golf through the terrain it needs, and ball golf on the terrain IT needs, than that would be cool!



that's exactly what i'm looking for in any golf course property i check out. $5 or $10 greens fees on a manicured, par 60-70 layout with 3-4 sets of tees to accomodate different levels of players plus pro-shop, 19th hole, refreshment carts and no groups of 10 smashing beer bottles on the baskets - woo woo!

you deserve a handfull of DUCK BUTTER to the face... :D



Geez, I wonderwhere you got that from? Frank Da TanK Maybe?

I new 9 hole layout is being designed THREW the woods of Treasure Cove DGC. It will be everything it could've been.

I am NOT a fan of elevated tee-pads. We have had 2 broken ankles in less than 6 months. That problem has been fixed.

I will play a fly 18 course someday before I make an educated assesment asfar as playing DG on a ball golf course, but as far as I am concerned. I would rather chase my plastic through the woods.

Ken Franks

I haven't played a fly 18 course but I have played a lot of ball golf over the years and the courses are so wide open it seems like it would make for boring disc golf.

I haven't played a fly 18 course but I have played a lot of ball golf over the years and the courses are so wide open it seems like it would make for boring disc golf.



I am sick and tired of people getting on here trying to dog people who are promoting the sport.
Especially the ones who haven't even played on a ball gaolf course. :o

Not trying to dog anybody. I think it's best to have a variety of courses. That way we can all be happy. And I have played a lot of ball golf on ball golf courses so I know what the courses are like. Let me ask a question... Do you put the basket near the ball-golf green on every hole?

Nope in fact the course he put in Houston was a cheap pitch and putt that you payed $9 for 9 holes and $12 for 18. BTW it was only a nine hole course. :confused:

Nope in fact the course he put in Houston was a cheap pitch and putt that you payed $9 for 9 holes and $12 for 18. BTW it was only a nine hole course. :confused:



That's pathetic. And it really brings us back to the topic at hand, I really don't want to have to pay greens fees for disc golf like you do ball golf.

if you don't mind paying $5 or $10 for a better course without groups of 10 breaking beer bottles on the basket then you've got options.

when i lived in austin i'd occassionaly hear people say they wouldn't pay a meager $5 to play all day on the awesome courses at circle r. whatever makes them happy, i guess, but they certainly missed out on sweet disc golf.

I personally will play to play a course that provides a challenging yet fair experience but I have yet to see that in the F-18 type courses.

if by unfair you mean that fly-18 courses reward big arms without much risk, then i would tend to agree.

i don't know if you would consider The Red Hawk to be a fly-18 "type" course or not with its hybrid nature. i do think it is challenging and fair. it does give big arms some opportunities to exploit their d, but they do have to assume additional risk in the process.

in order to have a likely chance at winning The Players Cup someone will need 370-380 ft. distance. someone who has 450 ft. distance has 3 or 4 opportunities to save strokes, while someone who throws 350 ft. could conceivably win. i will go out on a limb, however, and say that someone with 300 ft. max d. cannot win the event, but the blue tees were created for top professional players.

No by fair I mean the course has "good" fairways that can be hit with a decent throw and it isn't a "spray and pray" type course with trees all over the fairway. Of the DG courses on BG holes I have played are pretty boring and all I do is let out some "D" drives and easy approaches while people who cannot throw as far just throw two drives and I assume it is even less fun for them. I am a fan of two-shot holes but the kind that you must throw a 300-350 accurate shot to a landing area and then another 250' or so to the basket

I agree with you Matt. I also do not like holes that are even drive-drive holes.

IMO, long holes should be dual rewarding. Ideally starting out with a big booming drive where lateral placement on the fairway is rewarded. Then followed by controlled shots to the green.

One of the best long holes I have played was at John Houcks CR2 ranch. It is on the strawbale course and is about 925ft long. OB on right and left. But gracious landing zone around 400ft from the tee. Following an equally long second shot, the player has to navigate short trees guarding the green for the remaining 150-250ft. The hole was designated a par 5, but it can be easily 4'ed.

I can see this working out on a ball golf course where the basket is placed between an OB golf green and sand trap.

But if a hole, regardless of terrain went like this long-placement-manuever/approach-putt it would be a great golf hole regardlss of distance. These are types of shots needed to throw the hole.

parkn: just wondering why you would start your post with " I also do not like holes that are even drive-drive holes" and then go on to describe john's sweet par 5 that is played driver-driver-putter.

one of the beauties of disc golf design is that you can have a par 4 hole that is best played driver-putter or one that is best played putter-driver. the main reason that golf par 4's aren't played 7-iron-driver is that it is difficult to control distance with a driver and most greens aren't designed to receive driver shots, not to mention that it's just plain tough to hit driver off the deck. disc golf does not have this problem.

as far as putting a basket between the green and a bunker, it's not really do-able. the baskets on a golf course need to be far enough from greens and bunkers that normal golf shots do not end up next to the basket. greens should come into play as infrequently as possible.

I am a fan of two-shot holes but the kind that you must throw a 300-350 accurate shot to a landing area and then another 250' or so to the basket



yes, i like holes like that. i really like par 4 holes where a 300 ft. "safe" shot leaves 425 ft. and a fairly difficult par, a 350 ft. "moderate" shot cuts the corner and leaves a 350 ft. second shot and a birdie opportunity, and a "risky", crushed 425 ft. shot really cuts the corner and leaves a 175 ft. second shot and a great chance at birdie.

Denny, Johns par 5 has obstacles around the green, which require placement on that second long drive (which only comes into play for big arms).

More or less what I was describing is holes that are 700-800ft and wide open, no obstacles, no penalites. Those are very boring.

I am not against holes that go, putter-driver-approach-putt.

But it is more fun to take a booming shot off the tee box then to play a short controlled shot. But forcing short controlled shots off the teebox is one of the beautiful things in the game. I just do not prefer it. However it is fun being tested on your course management skills.

i got bored with all the rollers and played the back 9 with air shots...but luckily there was a beverage cart or two out there...the best part was no flypads...we used this stuff called grass(grows right out of the ground) :o

Par 60-70 courses are the way to go. You have to throw multiple good shots and make a putt per hole to score well. The people who dont like those types of courses are people who cant play them. Anyone can get good enough to make make a good drive and a putt on on given hole under 400 ft. But its alot tougher to throw that 350-450ft drive and 150-250 ft upshot and hit the 30 ft putt for birdie then it is so throw the 370 ft shot and make the 30 ft putt.

The long par 60-70 courses really seperate the men from the boys which is why I think alot of people dont like them. They dislike them because they can hang and compete on the pitch and putt courses cant hang when they get out on the longer higher par courses because they have no midrange or upshot game. Either that or they dont have the focus or course management skills to hang on the longer courses where multiple good shots and more concentration is required.

Thats just my opinion I could be wrong and I may be biased because I used to be a ball golfer before I play disc golf and to me most disc golf courses are like playing 18 holes of par 3 ball golf which isnt very exciting and anyone can get good enough to compete when you only have to hit/throw short shots and make putts.

you can not lump us all together like that...i mainly play 2 par 63 courses(Circle R)...and i avoid pitch and putt courses...but golf courses are for ball golf...not much in the way for disc golfers...Coda and Joe set the course record the first time on the course(63)...that was better than any golf team had ever done...1200 ft rollers(coda) are not disc golf...we birdied a 1200 ft hole with my wife's drive(600ft roller) and my second shot(air shot) and a 5ft putt...too easy...Coda could have driven that hole...get back in the woods people...over developed land is great for certain people...i will pass :o

you can not lump us all together like that...i mainly play 2 par 63 courses(Circle R)...and i avoid pitch and putt courses...but golf courses are for ball golf...not much in the way for disc golfers...Coda and Joe set the course record the first time on the course(63)...that was better than any golf team had ever done...1200 ft rollers(coda) are not disc golf...we birdied a 1200 ft hole with my wife's drive(600ft roller) and my second shot(air shot) and a 5ft putt...too easy...Coda could have driven that hole...get back in the woods people...over developed land is great for certain people...i will pass :o



Im not talking about wide open holes from the ball golf tee to the ball golf green. Im talking about well designed disc golf holes on a ball golf course or any piece of land that creates a challenging par 60-72 type course. Of course from ball golf tee to ball golf green is easy, but thats not what I am talking about. Thats like putting a tee pad and a basket in a wide open field and having 18 of them with no obstacles to negotiate. Thats just a poorly designed hole in general. Im talking about well designed par 60-72 courses not just ball golf courses where you tee off from the side of the ball golf tee and play to the side of the ball golf green. Thats not a well designed disc golf hole. That is pathetic and if thats what Fly 18 is ( i have never played one) then I would not like that type of course either. Im talking about courses like Winthrop Gold and Renny Gold and the Toboggan and the Course out in Oregon for the Beaver State Fling and the Blue to Blue layout in Warwick and the Red Hawk and other courses like that.

More or less what I was describing is holes that are 700-800ft and wide open, no obstacles, no penalites. Those are very boring.



i totally agree.

about throwing driver off the tee and then midrange or putter: i prefer those holes, because of the shades of grey they present on the tee shot. it's not hit a target or else and it's not wide open with no penalty. it's tempting someone to take greater risk as they seek greater reward. i also like to see that if someone takes 0 risk on their tee shot then they have a long difficult shot remaining and not a gimmee par.

this is my favorite tee shot from the you-know-what course, the 660 ft. par 4 third hole. the harder you try to throw, the more the low ceiling and shule right come into play.
http://www.playerscup.org/images/cs_03_01.jpg

Let me ask a question... Do you put the basket near the ball-golf green on every hole?



The "Typical" Fly-18 course (that is one that was installed by Reese, not an imitation) will have the Baskets Short of the green and off to the side of the fairway. The Tees are usually slightly forward of the "Red Tees" This allows for "Smooth" interaction with "Ball Golfers" on the course.

A Disc Group can typically tee off behind a Ball Golf Group and end up playing though while they are approching the grreen and putting out.

All Greens and Bunkers are played as OB for Discs.......

Sure it is a "Different" style of play, BUT a majority of those who have participated will do so AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN, Not because we "Love" Reese but because it IS different and where other than Round Rock do you get to throw MAX D on nearly every hole........ /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The concept is AWESOME the "Brain Child" isnt the greatest people person :p

alright...you guys get it...and I do pay to play most of my casual rounds(so money is not an issue rollboy)...the private courses with real golf holes(disc that is) are where the future lies...not in the park and not on a ball golf course...and not with Flypads :p

the future of disc golf is in parks, on golf courses, on ski resorts, on private property, and on once-a-year temp courses in places you could never have a permanent course (can anyone say: WATERLOOOOOOOOOOO!)

the bottom line is: IT'S ALL GOOD!

and even though reese and i have a slight difference in philosophy about course design on a ball golf course, i continue to applaud him for having the guts to run with his vision and persevere.

as far as flypads: i think they're good, but i'd rather throw from grass with cleats than anything else. that can only work, though, if the tees are moved around frequently to avoid excess wear. without doubt the worst tee of all is a deep, muddy pit.

or crushed granite! please no more marbles to tee off of.

I agree Denny, variety is what's best. As for tees... What I HATE are concrete tees with a board at the front. Eagle Valley has these and I stub my toes on the board once or twice every round.

or crushed granite! please no more marbles to tee off of.



Moffitt!!!!!!!! :D

Would this topic be, without Fly 18??If fly pads suck why do I get reorders.Why does worlds since 1999 have pads. Why does Usdgc use fly pads??In some cases without fly pads there would be no course at all.Or removed because or erosion.When installed right they rock.My vision, all will see ,as we look back.I have done this task ,with my and other parteners moneys.I took a gamble on our sport ,with my family ,my money, and my time. I only gamble, when I am in controll of the outcome,even my game ,sad as it is There has been many mitches, in my life.Take away the M and add a B and that and thats what they are to me ... :eek:

There has been many mitches, in my life.Take away the M and add a B and that and thats what they are to me



Dude how old are you again??? No wonder you can't sign the big lucrative endorsement deal like you've promised all along. Any Co. PR person with half a degree would laugh your [I'm a potty-mouth!] out of town.

There has been many mitches, in my life.Take away the M and add a B and that and thats what they are to me ... :eek:


Are you bad-mouthing one of your partners???

How soon we forget No that Mitch was the seed for fly 18.Nothing but respct.. ;)

When installed right they rock.




Who installed the pads @ White Mountain Rec Center in Tinley Park?

I like crushed marbles :D

doesnt that hurt Vinnie :o:D

Fly pads have tooooo much grip, I about twisted my knee cap off at the USDGC on hole 14...I'm sure they are loved by many, but I've heard complaints about them from more than one pro.

I don't like them. I don't want top have artificial knees by the time I'm 30 you know. There's another one. :D

Copy that big fella!

fly pads suck!!!!

3 blind mice :DOld horses need to go to pasture.....Gotta go my flight to Fla is tommorow.......I just sent another order to texas today, fly pads on the way ;)

Suckers!

lol :cool:flypads = injury

how are you counting to 3 rollboy :o...man can ya feel the love on this thread...nothing but props for the rollboy(talking about old horses) :D

just got done playing the discraft team challenge. we invented a format that was very fun and recommend playing on any golf course that will let you.

it's a scramble that involves hitting golf balls and throwing discs. on each tee the team will decide whether to hit balls or throw discs. all members of the team will hit a ball or all members will throw a disc. the team will then select it's best lie. on the next shot the team will switch from balls to discs or discs to balls.

shots will continue to alternate until the chosen lie is on the green at which point all players will putt golf balls until they've holed out.

the only other rule is that only disc putters may be thrown onto the greens. disc drivers and mid-ranges are OB if they end up on the greens. bunkers are not OB.

highly recommend you find an open-minded golf course and give it a try.

would you like to be a part of a site without paying the dough? dub dub dub dot united+discgolf.com (no plus symbol required)

I'm taking bets on how long it will take them to ban me from their tricycle of a site...

i've been trying my best to ignore this untiemyshoesandfallonmyface.com controversy,
but enough is enough!

you're not funny, we don't want to read your posts, seriously just go off on your little trip with your three followers and don't come back.

Hey Denny. That was fun!!!!!! I heard that my team (J.Maiuro, R.Converse, and P.Wyngard) tied for 1st place with a 3 over par. Who did we tie?

the funny thing is that it was so much fun i forgot to find out what other people shot. dagon, emily, and i shot +4.

Hmmm..... No sign of Reese since the board went members only. He's probably having a hard time figuring out how to spell his password correctly. What would this board be without the man responsible for the future of disc golf?

I am sure rollboy is busy pushing his rubbers off on some un-suspecting golf course that has not heard of him yet :D

He's probably having a hard time figuring out how to spell his password correctly.



Especially if it happens to be a real word... :D

i think he's still working on some changes over here in fla. it'll be interesting to see what happens on the 2005 fab-fly-tour.

He's probably having a hard time figuring out how to spell his password correctly.



Especially if it happens to be a real word... :D



Chuck, you come over here right now and wipe the coffee off of my monitor! :D:D

i think he's still working on some changes over here in fla. it'll be interesting to see what happens on the 2005 fab-fly-tour.


I hope it turns out better than the "Worlds Richest" Fly18 Tour of a few years ago.

You have been warned.

i think he's still working on some changes over here in fla. it'll be interesting to see what happens on the 2005 fab-fly-tour.




well since 2005 has only 30+ days to go even reese couldn't f up a tour in that time frame :eek:

I still love the golf cart !!!!!! Disc Golf on a ball golf course is fun and challenging. I miss Mission Trails , but we still have Emerald Isle's !!!!!

Fly-18 has just installed a new course on an executive golf course just north of Tampa in Lutz.

The course is fantastic. The beauty of the layout is that the three tee lengths make it fun and challenging for truly all levels of players. A pro can be challenged from the long tees while playing with an intermediate player from the whites and a junior from the shorts.

Each of the 9 golf holes has two basket that play off the same tees. Each basket location makes for a unique hole that require power, accuracy, shot selection, and the best element is PUTTING.



All but one or two of the 18 baskets are on rounded mounds with drop-offs at various points around the basket making three putts a possibility on most holes. The mounds are fair, however, in that it is easy to lay up under the basket without getting weird roll-away bounces.

The owners of the course are VERY disc golf friendly. 18 holes cost $6 and you can play all day (even with taking a break and coming back to the course) for $10. Golf carts are neither available or needed on this short golf course. There is one par 4, making the course par 55.

The locals are already planning on starting a regular handicap or doubles very soon.

I'll shoot pictures for my website over there in the next week or two.

Congratulations and thanks, Reese!
Lutz Executive is a GEM!

I can attest to Reese's new course in Tampa. It is awesome. Playing disc golf along the side of "ball" golfers is a trip. They're more than willing to accomodate us and actually marvel at what we're doing. It seems just another, albiet obvious, way to expand disc golf into other people's recreational agenda.

Thanks, Reese.

The new course sounds exciting - congrats, Reese.

I look forward to 2006 when Fly18 will hopefully make its first appearance in the Northeast section of the United States.

Good job Reese on the new courses !!!!!

Love the golf carts !!!!!

Any word yet on any new courses , here in the southland ?

Thanks it was a bussy year.I will be back in fla to put 2 more courses in this year 1 on east coast the other in orlando....The new course in Lutz is lots of fun at all levels of play just north of tampa...My course in dunedin got a facelift with new 1/2" pads and some pad and basket changes.I did pull Wellington and Sarasota sad to saythe beauty and the beast are gone.. :( I am working hard on the north east this year Mass Connicut Deleware Philly and so on..2006 we will see more golf couses with baskets on them....Look forward to playing this year a little more.Fly 18 15 courses in 5 years.Plenty more to come.

who ate all the flippin chips Kip :D

Reese,
Maybe you should update your website with a list of current courses, directions, prices and such.
While you may have put in 15 courses, I here there are only 5 that remain in the ground.

The whole fly 18 thing seems like a mystery to most players

Not sure this would be considered a slam dunk :confused:

What is your plan for back up marketing once you get a course installed? Do you have nay literature, at leasta web page would help!

I may be willing to give fly 18 a try down here in St louis but what do you do as a company to market and advertise a course to attract the players once it's in.

I want you to know that I hope your course are more succesful in the future than the past. Installing courses and having them pulled back out seems more negative than positive.
Do you have suport from one or more of the current disc manufactures?
What products are you selling at your current proshops?
.
I know we have done some cross promotions, but I haven seen any orders from you for Gateway discs for any of your new courses.

I dont want you to take this the wrong way as I hope you sell 50 course this year and make tons of money.

I am willing to help, like I sais in the phone conversation, and maybe we can help keep you from having to pull every other course you put in.

You should hire a PR person, your not that good at it :o

Hi Dave some of your points are well taken.I do agree with the web site issues this is one of my weak areas.I am going to making some changes soon to correct the problem, per your suggestions, thanks.Yes 15 is the number I have installed on golf courses permament, there are 8 standing today 2 will be insatall in the next 2 months CA and FLA..None do I consider a failure...All , I have learned from. Like in a park, our future is never, forever.I do have a lot of forces aginst me ,when I open these courses, anyone can come, scary sometimes.Like anything new we are under a magnaifing glass.The only mystery to players ,are those that have not experienced fly 18.This is my version of disc golf you have yours ,and Harold has his, and so on........This slam dunk, was posted by one of my coustomers ,not me, but I do agree :)This post is long enough I will anwser later this is sunday....Fly 18 wears 12 caps ,they all fit my head, for now ,..I will help in any way, to get a course in ,The only problem in the past is, we are both chefs, and have a hard time in a small kitchen.We both serve up great food ;)

That was a very nice response, Reese. I'm looking forward to working with Jon and the Billy Casper people this year at the Chicago Fly 18 courses. If disc golf continues to grow at a 15% per year clip, I suspect we will see more privately owned pay-to-play options. Every time I've played a Fly-18 course or a disc golf course on a golf course, it has been a blast.

Actually you have installed 14.5 fly 18 courses. The one we got here was a Fly-9

With dual baskets ;)

I think I was just dual tees.

nah, it was duel baskets also scooter.

Oh well. Stll it is better to have 18 DIFFERENT fairways.

I , personally like the Fly18 courses I have played.

All the stuff I could want or need when I'm playing.

First...............Love the golf cart...............always have !!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Provides a shaded , padded place to sit down , while waiting your turn. Holds your Heavy Golf bag , drinks , scorecards , cigars and friends !!!!!! :D

Clean Public Restrooms !!!!!!!

Lounge and or dinning area. Hot and cold food.

Hot and or Cold Drinks.

Golf Discs for sale.

Beer Cart that comes out and around the course , bringing you food and drinks so you don't have to even leave the hole your currently playing !!!!!! Usually a pretty lady with a great attitude !!!! :D

The reason the Houston course never took off is because it was on the other side of town which is about an hour away from most DGers and it was put in on a Par-3 course that was not too much different than your typical DG course besides the greens fee.

It was pretty cool to be able to play under the lights, though. Wasn't the main reason it came out that the course had changed ownership?

No clue but nobody played it. :confused:

The reason the Houston course never took off is because it was on the other side of town which is about an hour away from most DGers and it was put in on a Par-3 course that was not too much different than your typical DG course besides the greens fee.



Hey Scooter , how much were greens fees there ?

I am not quite sure as i only played it once but I think like $9 for 9 or $13 for 18.

Golf Carts ?

Yeah but I think those were walking fees. BTW it was a short course so no carts were needed.

Understood. Thanks !!!

...to bring this thread full circle

I agree that par 68-72 SHOULD be top priority. The joys of par 4's and par 5's is truely rewarding. Whereas, it takes 2 great shot to have a shot @ a bird.
I personally love it because I feel it really gives you more opportunity to shine. I hope to see the days of "2 or die" golf just as a building block to a better product.

Long Live par 72 golf!

TanK

...to bring this thread full circle

I agree that par 68-72 SHOULD be top priority. The joys of par 4's and par 5's is truely rewarding. Whereas, it takes 2 great shot to have a shot @ a bird.
I personally love it because I feel it really gives you more opportunity to shine. I hope to see the days of "2 or die" golf just as a building block to a better product.

Long Live par 72 golf!

TanK



I am all for that kind of golf as well and the best example of that kind of course that i have played is the Highbridge complex in WI. It is not quite par 72 but most holes require two accurate shots to get to the basket.

Thanks Matt. I think there will be a reason to come back in 2007 and check out what will be our new Gold course called The Bear and the enhanced Gold course you played.

I still liked Granite ridge the best. :DWill there be a event there? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Keep posted. Something is percolating that will make it worthwhile to come.

Schweeeeet!! :D

Ahoy!

The Island Hoppin', Cocktail Sippin', Disc Golfin' Cruise if FILLING FAST!

The passenger list has swollen to 88 having paid deposits, 59 of which have registered for the tournament on Royal Caribbean's private island, CocoCay! THAT LEAVES ONLY 13 REMAINING TOURNAMENT SPOTS!

If you're on the fence, then you'd better act quickly if you'd like to be a part of this fun, inaugural event! Check out the cruise website for more info:
www.etherbinge.com/cruise.htm (http://www.etherbinge.com/cruise.htm)

Once the tournament fills Cruiseworld will still be reserving cabins for those that'd like to be a part of the group. For those that aren't a part of the tournament, the course will be open for 45-60 minutes in between rounds if you just want to get a quick round in.

For those that aren't able to make this cruise: we have begun to plan for the second disc golf cruise in 2007. Any feedback on dates and destinations will be taken into consideration as we work through the planning process.

Also, as Shawn mentioned earlier, we are considering doing a casual one-day event on Sunday, December 3rd as a Bon Voyage Party! We'd like to get some feedback on this one. Basically our options are:
1) Play the original Fly-18 Space Coast layout in Titusville with Mach-Lites
2) Play Wickham Park in Melbourne
3) Play Turkey Lake or Barnett Park in Orlando

Ahoy!

The Island Hoppin', tail Sippin', Disc Golfin' Cruise if FILLING FAST!

The passenger list has swollen to 88 having paid deposits, 59 of which have registered for the tournament on Royal Caribbean's private island, CocoCay! THAT LEAVES ONLY 13 REMAINING TOURNAMENT SPOTS!

If you're on the fence, then you'd better act quickly if you'd like to be a part of this fun, inaugural event! Check out the cruise website for more info:
www.etherbinge.com/cruise.htm (http://www.etherbinge.com/cruise.htm)

Once the tournament fills Cruiseworld will still be reserving cabins for those that'd like to be a part of the group. For those that aren't a part of the tournament, the course will be open for 45-60 minutes in between rounds if you just want to get a quick round in.

For those that aren't able to make this cruise: we have begun to plan for the second disc golf cruise in 2007. Any feedback on dates and destinations will be taken into consideration as we work through the planning process.

Also, as Shawn mentioned earlier, we are considering doing a casual one-day event on Sunday, December 3rd as a Bon Voyage Party! We'd like to get some feedback on this one. Basically our options are:
1) Play the original Fly-18 Space Coast layout in Titusville with Mach-Lites
2) Play Wickham Park in Melbourne
3) Play Turkey Lake or Barnett Park in Orlando



Sounds like a blast !!!!!

It would be nice if the 07 cruise could be in the summer. I could definitely get the wife to sign on then.

making par 4 and 5 dosen't mean that they have to be wide open. We have a few holes in TULSA designed by Kevin McCoy at the new hakey creek that are par 4 and 5 right through the woods now you either have to have an arm like Kev or you have to play smart. 4 and 5 are the way to go

We have so many more options to increase the difficulty of our holes.

At our new course in Trussville, #17 will be a par four or five, depending how one of the tunnels shapes up. It is barely over 400ft, but considering the fairway winds through thick privet, around some really big old dogwoods, along the side of a hill with some boulders changing the topography of the landing zones.

It is almost impossible to get to the green in two shots. One has to be really risky throwing a sky hyzer side arm or backhand to clear some brush, but with the hill and narrow fairways, it is best to lay up.

It is basically a midrange, midrange, putter, putt hole.