We only have 1 disc golf course in Birmingham due to the unwillingness of the city parks department to allow us to install another course, not even if we did it ourselves.

So this leaves us here in a predicament there are about 4-500 disc golfers in town, so it gets really crowded on sunny weekends. But our course, George Ward Park for those of you who have been lucky enough to play it, has 2-3 pin placements on each hole. It can be configured where a top pro (Kenny/Barry) should shoot about 16-17 under or only 5-6 under par 54.

There are about 20 or so serious tournament players that range from top MA2 players to +1000 rated players. These players like to see the course challenging, the other few hundred like the pitch and putt configuration and vocally whine a lot when the course is set up hard for a tournament. The tournament players are the ones that hold the keys to unlock the baskets.

It seems that no one has been happy with any compromised medium setup, top players whine when there are too many short holes, rec players whine when there are too many long holes.

I came up with an idea of rotating the setup, 2 weeks short, 2 weeks medium and then 2 weeks long. This to me seemed to be the least amount of thinking involved in keeping everyone happy at some point.

Does anyone else out there with a similar predicament to ours have a solution. There are two cities smaller then ours in Alabama that have 4 and 8 courses. We are very envious. Any suggestions are welcomed.

Ever thought about mixing up the long and short pin placements? It seems like the easiest compromise rather than having the entire course be either long or short.

Ever thought about mixing up the long and short pin placements? It seems like the easiest compromise rather than having the entire course be either long or short.



"It seems that no one has been happy with any compromised medium setup, top players whine when there are too many short holes, rec players whine when there are too many long holes."

Tried it.

The people will whine and cry no matter what you do. Best thing is to get a committee together of open minded players, discuss the whole "rec player versus tourney player" thing, and come up with a plan that makes sense for the situation. Then stick with it. If you try to think about all the angles and act accordingly, then you will know that you did what was best for the circumstances. You won't hear from the happy people, or the contented people, or the people who realize you made the best choices possible for the circumstances, but no matter what you do you will hear from people who don't like it.

Do your best and expect to hear crap. That's the disc golf way.

Pn2P, what about creating a shorter set of tees for the longer pin positions? Even if they're not permanent, you could set up some flags for the shorter boxes.

...or was this already unsuccessful also?

First set up a few configurations that use a mix of short long and medium pins, give them names and put them on a schedule.

Post the layouts and schedule with a disclaimer that this is the proposed schedule, and the baskets should move within day or two of the schdeuled dates. Let that run for a while and see it the majority of players will acclamate to it.

It should get all of the players to play the longer placements more often, and they may find that they like it that way.

This is an expensive solution, but less expensive than a new course: Buy a set of new/refirbished baskets and put them in the longs. Make sure they are a distinctly different color - maybe all DisCatcher for the longs.

IMO, your club should easily be able to raise the funds since you have very few expenses with only one course in the ground.

The only solution, other than a second course, is adding extra/short tees and putting in dual baskets.

Cedarock Park in Burlington NC rotates pins once a month. Seems to work well.

Your idea of every two weeks sounds fine also. Set the timetable, post the info, and do it. If it is equal time in each position, no one is getting preferential treatment.

Cedarock Park in Burlington NC rotates pins once a month. Seems to work well.

Your idea of every two weeks sounds fine also. Set the timetable, post the info, and do it. If it is equal time in each position, no one is getting preferential treatment.


I like this ideal of posting a schedule, maybe I�ll have to try it at one of our courses where we have the same problem.
What we do is a mix of longs and shorts that change about every three weeks. It keeps the pros happy because there are about 9-10 challenging holes while keeping the recreational golfer happy with the other 8-9 hole being easier deuce hole.

You should explain to the rec's that if they normally play one or more of the easy hole at a 2 or 3 but they both get the same score and a 4 on the hard hole there still shooting with each other it just took one more shot. Par was only setup to make people feel good about them selves, it doesn't matter when your play against some one else.

You should explain to the rec's that if they normally play one or more of the easy hole at a 2 or 3 but they both get the same score and a 4 on the hard hole there still shooting with each other it just took one more shot. Par was only setup to make people feel good about them selves, it doesn't matter when your play against some one else.



Exactly, but we have a lot of people that are of the mentality "this game should be all about the fun, and not difficult at all" They feel that if you cannot get a 2 on the hole, then it is no fun. Of course these are the same people that throw their max weight eagles and cheetas like a frisbee, wonder why it goes too far left, and refuse lessons. But these same people would complain to the parks department about "us tournament players harrassing them" and the course would get pulled. They would get really upset if we told them that even in the hard long setup SSA "par" was 51 and not 54!

I am going to talk to a few people about posting what we are doing on the bulletin board and see how that would work out. I am glad to know we are not the only city with this problem.

How about posting different level 'par' for the different holes; then the Recs can feel alright about getting a "4" on longer/tighter pins? I believe Morley field does this.

How about posting different level 'par' for the different holes; then the Recs can feel alright about getting a "4" on longer/tighter pins? I believe Morley field does this.


Just post the rec par since any pro already knows that course par is 54.

I feel for you Parkntwoputt, I would hate it if I only had one and it was full of rec golfers, but I'm lucky that where I live there are two other course besides the rec course and one of them I have total control over. So it's not as bad for me.
One word of advice is to let your local parks know who does all the work on your course because I'm sure it's not the rec's. This may give you an advantage if they try to get the park removed, and just remember that they probably love the sport as much as you do they just don't want to get better at it or maybe they like their group of friends and fine with them.

My best advice is to move the pens to a mixed lay out and ask people what they think should be moved next so they feel like they had a role in the decision.

We've tried a few different methods here also. What we've been doing the last 6-7 years is rotating the baskets every month after our 1st Sunday monthly. They will be all in the short for one month, then we randomly select 9 baskets (we use 18 golf balls numbered 1-18 in a bag, take turns drawing out 9 balls-that way people feel like they get a part of chosing)to move long for a month. After the next monthly, they go all long. Next month, half short, half long. Then back to all short. I found out the hard way that moving 9 baskets a month is much better on the back than moving 18!
But, no matter what you do as a club (group), there will always be complainers. There are some good ideas on this thread, maybe something will work out.

We only have 1 disc golf course in Birmingham due to the unwillingness of the city parks department to allow us to install another course, not even if we did it ourselves.

.......

Does anyone else out there with a similar predicament to ours have a solution. There are two cities smaller then ours in Alabama that have 4 and 8 courses. We are very envious. Any suggestions are welcomed.



Try getting some courses in the suburbs. Check out Cincinnati (http://cincinnatidiscgolf.com/courses). Most of our ~20 courses are outside of 'Nati city limits. These parks departments seem more willing to work with the club. Colerain recently asked the club what type of grass we wanted for their new course.

Sounds like there might be enough players for someone with an MBA to find investors and open a pay-to-play course with multiple tees?

Actually what would be better then that would be to bulldoze the dilapidated and condemned buildings around Cooper Green Park. Build a 20ft concrete wall around the park and have 24hr security around the place.

I think that would be only way to keep people from getting mugged and cars stolen and broken into at that park. I had a chance to tour it, with a group in broad daylight, there were people scoping us out waiting for us to leave our vehicle.

It was a great course, actually better then George Ward, but the city refuses to patrol the park or mow the grass. It is a waste land now.

Plus, I thought someone in MENSA would know the inflated cost of land here in the surrounding counties of Birmingham. Well it is at least inflated compared to the depressed wages of the workforce.

sounds like your club needs to find someone with land and put in your own private club course. not easy but definatley a logical alternative to using city parks.

We (I) have decided on a bi-weekly rotation.

Every other Tuesday, I will make a trip to the course to change all 18 baskets at once. So it will be two weeks short, two weeks medium and two weeks long. If they don't like the current setup, wait two weeks and it will change.

No one has a better idea that they are willing to implement and do themselves, but they all have opinons. So until someone gets more motivation then I do, it will be setup the way I choose. After all, I have a key, and I am doing the work.

Set the course long and allow the Pros to play from the pads and set dirt tees for Ams. If the Ams whine about dirt tees tell them to stop playing the ladies tees. Works every time.

just keep moving baskets. Thats what matters. You don't wanna get bored of the same hole. Change them at least once a month and people should be happy. If it's too easy for the pros.....tell them to focus their efforts and get a new course in. Believe me, with a few dedicated golfers, you will be able to get another course in. You just have to approach the right people correctly.

A fair course should consist of :

6 - Universal shots : Players both right and left handed can reach with the same level of difficulty.

6 - Left handed holes : Easier for left handed or sidearm throwers , more difficult for right handed throwers.

6 - Right handed holes : Easier for right handed or left handed sidearm throwers , more difficult for left handed throwers.

Balance is key. Prevents players from complaining.

As much about course design. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

park,

tough dilemna! your solution will work but is a fair amount of work. i'm wondering if the suggestion for a short set of tees got any play? many of our courses here have at least one set of long concrete pads and a set of flagged-marked turf tee locations. its works great no matter what configurations the pins are in. plus, some good planning can turn holes that favor one hand or the other completely around... making the overall course quite interesting.

also, since courses are basically circles, on the autumn solstice, gather as many discers as possible at the course and repeat this:

"Equal night and equal day
Soon the light will fade away
Equal day and equal night
This circle fades as does the light
Thus the magick we invoke
Fades anon like wisps of smoke
Until we next decide to play"

Thanks Sandalman,

We had "am" pads. Natural turf, with wooden tee signs with marked length. Well no one used them, not even in the long configuration, and eventually no one bothered to repair the aged signs because they never were used.

Playing from Am pads made even the rec players feel inadequate, I know it baffels me.

Accompanied by any complaints I have had is the statement, "I cannot get any two's in this setup". Well if it is two's you want, go to a putt putt course with your girlfriend and leave disc golfing to people who enjoy the challenge. That is my greif about their complaints. There are no pin placements in "unfair" areas. Some are just longer, and can be dueced, but it just requires a certain shot that alot of rec players do not have, they can always take the safe route, and deal with 3's and 4's and the occasional 5.

I cannot work with people who do refuse to work with me. So far people have just accepted the fact that there will be two weeks every once in a while that they will not like the setup. I think I made the right decision.

That would have been one advantage of a 6/6/6 setup. With some portion of the course always in the shorts, some medium, and some long, everyone would have some holes that they liked all the time instead of having 2 week periods they might stay away.

How about a random assignment of hole lengths?

Take 54 ping pong balls, mark 18 "Short," 18 "Middle," and 18 "Long." Toss them in a bag. Draw out one and assign the length to Hole #1. Continue through all 18 holes. As a "Middle" comes out of the bag, the next hole has a higher chance of being "Short" or "Long," etc. You could possibly get all "Short" or all "Long" but chances are you'll have a good mix of lengths and the course will likely change significantly every time you do this.

Just a thought.

If it were my call I'd keep almost all the holes in the most challenging position almost all the time. Encourage the whiners and babies to grow up! Tell them that par is not what you shoot your third time playing the game. Par is what experts shoot on a good day. [Ooops! I typed the word "par" three times. Here comes Lowe. :)] I want to play a course where par is an accomplishment.

Besides, your expert players are not the ones leaving trash on the course and defacing the tee signs and benches. If you design a course that discourages the riff-raff, you have that much less riff-raff to deal with.

But this is coming from a guy who is tired of playing over-used, trashed, vandalized, crowded courses. You might not have that problem yet.

Unfortunately, the longest position and the most challenging position are not always the same. If a course is well designed, alternate pin positions will give different challenges, not just different lengths. By mixing up course configurations from time to time, players will learn new skills and hone old skills. They will also not tire of playing the same old course and will gain more of an appreciation of what it takes to become a well rounded player. The "babies and whiners" will complain if a hole is too long, or if it's too technically difficult, or if it has too much elevation gain, or whatever.

Those that vandalize, litter, and otherwise abuse course properties, would probably paint graffiti on the tennis court or dump ashtrays in the parking lot, so attempts to run them off by making the course too difficult are likely to be unsuccessful. They will roam around whatever configuration you have, disrepecting the efforts of those that have provided them with the course in the first place.

I like the ping pong ball idea.

Perhaps I can tap into my stat software and come up with a random number generator based on the hole setups. But that requires work, and the next month is dedicated to getting ready for my wedding. So everyone will have to deal with the SML setups for now.

Thanks

Cool......................the wedding sounds more important.

One suggestion to get more courses is to go around the parks department and submit a proposal to the mayor of your city. Maybe even approach the chamber of commerce.
You could also attend a public meeting and make a presentation before the board ( if you have one)
Another idea would be to approach the State or county parks department.
The best bet would be to find a private land owner and set up a play to play facility with a proshop and refreshments..

On the subject of your course lay out and where to have the pin positions, the main problem you are facing is the par of the hole.
For 25 years now, players ( mostly the old school ones who cannot throw far), have been passing along the information that ALL holes are par 3!
This is a MAJOR problem, especially when you are trying to stretch a course out in length and difficulty.
We are in the process of redesigning our easiest flattest course into a par 68-70.
When the recreational players ask us what we are doing we tell them making some of the holes par 4's amd 5's.
VERY VERY few have complained and most agree that disc golf should be more like ball golf.
We have nearly 10,000 people who play disc golf at least once a month and 2000 who play every week on our 13 courses in St Louis. 9,850 of them are not in the club and could care less where the pins are, as long as the course is well marked with signs and scorecards telling the distance, pin placements and par!
If they would like to have a say in how the courses are designed or improved they are more than welcome to join our club and have their opionon heard.
If they do not want to join our club, which finances the work on the courses, they should enjoy what we have done for them and throw there trash in the trash cans while playing!

When the design of our new course is done and the baskets are moved there will be a big sign on each hole informing the players of the layout, distance and par for that hole.
When they are making 5's on a par 5, the psychology of their round will be much more enjoyable.
I'm sure the area you have for the birmingham course isn't enough for a par 70, but if you stretch out a hole to more than 500 it should be called a par 4 on the tee sign and scorecard. If your course layout is a par 58 or 60 than it would help and could eliminate your problem if the pars were accurate instead of telling them all holes are pars 3's!!!!
I'm willing to to bet that more of the complaining is coming from the club members who cannot throw that far than from the recreational guys who mainly compete against their 3 other buddies or small group of friends.

In our new design all par 3's are between 200 and 375, there are NO holes between 375 and 525.
The 10 par 4's are all between 525 and 700 and the 3 par 5's are 700-900 feet.
This way all you would really need is 300 distance and you can birdie or par every single hole.

A fair course design and one that is state of the art should be designed this way so every single aspect of the disc golf game and its long range disc's are incorported.

Most disc golf courses take way more putting skills than driving skills and very few require 150-250 foot approaches.
I know this wont sound to fair, but ONLY TOP advanced and pro players should make more than 2 or 3 birdies in 1 round

If you play ball golf and shoot around 90 you are considered to be average and a 90 is averaging a bogey on every single hole!

I hope this helps and if you would like any direct questions answered or help in putting together a letter or proposal feel free to contact Gateway disc sports for help!,,,David

david: very well put. i strongly agree that beginning players shouldn't go out expecting to make birdies right out of the gates. i like your analysis of distance relating to par. i also believe that the majority of pin positions currently on disc golf courses are much too easy. if you watch a major golf championship on tv much of the commentary will focus on which pin positions are green lights and which ones are sucker bets. especially on sunday those guys will rarely fire at all of the pins. they have to earn birdies by hitting good, smart drives, then good, smart iron shots, and finally making a putt.

disc golf courses need pin positions where an agressive approach or putt that is misplayed can lead to a bogey. i don't mean holes where the basket is up on a giant ant hill and a shot that lands flat two feet from the bucket rolls all the way down the hill, but situations where, for example, there's a smart landing zone 40-60 ft. from the basket and to get closer means taking a large gamble with water, a dropoff, or heavy shule. in golf pros do make bogeys.

David,

Thanks for the input, and I agree fully about your thoughts on par, distance and relative skill. I played John Houcks courses in San Saba TX, and felt that they were the toughest courses I have ever played, yet they did not demand more then 300ft shots to get par, but it demanded accuracy and punished bad shots.

Unfortunately we have a poor situation here in Birmingham when it comes to disc golf courses. Our course has been in the ground for nearly 15 years and it was bought, installed and maintained soley by the players themselves. The city of Birmingham wants nothing to do with disc golf, mainly because it is not a money making activity. They do not wish to allocate any more park land dedicated to disc golf.

Local top pro Joe Thacker was one of the initial people behind installing our current course. Tom Monroe has headed up efforts to install new courses in the surrounding suburbs and at the State parks for the past 8 years. Unfortunately without success. Nobody wants anything to do with disc golf. We have heard excuses ranging from, "It is too dangerous" and the best one, "We do not want THAT kind of activity going on, with THOSE type of people in our neighboorhood".

Right now, a local community college and a distant suburb is interested in installing a course. However, the suburb has been mulling over the idea for the past 5 years.

Thanks for the advice though.

What is a "fair" course...

A boring one!

A fair course is designed by a Right Handed Player !!!!! :eek:

Just kidding !!!!!

A fair course is difficult for everyone !!!!!! :D

re righty vs. lefty...

i devised a quick technique for rating the "fairness" of a course from a lefty/righty perspective.

look at each hole, and test it according to the following guide. each criteria awards either 0 (totally balanced), .5 (slightly favors) or 1 (strongly favors) to one hand or the other. add up the scores for all holes and you get the course value.

here's the criteria:

A - relatively easy hyzer line, but no or very difficult annie line (well protected knife hyzers lines)... score: +1

B - hyzer line, but also reachable with an S ball using other hand... score: 0

C - straight, or very close to straight... score: 0

D - longer, flat hyzer line, also reachable with a steady fading annie... score: +.5

E - opposite shots available, but one side is noticably more acheivable than the other... score: +.5

F - two shot hole where excellant tee shot can set up either hand, but average or worse tee shot more strongly favors one hand (ie results in case A or D)... score: +.5

G - two shot hole that requires two A or D type shots, both favoring one side... score: +1


here's how this assessment works at Veteran's Park. i'll show the score and the reasoning:

hole 1: left +.5, E
hole 2: 0, C(long)... left +.5, F(short)
hole 3: right +.5
hole 4: 0, C (both)
hole 5: right +.5, E(both)
hole 6: 0, B/C (both)
hole 7: 0, B(short), C(long)
hole 8: right +.5,A(short), 0,C(long)
hole 9: 0, C(short), right +1,A(long)
hole 10: right +.5,A(both)
hole 11: left +.5,D(short), right +.5,D(long)
hole 12: 0,C (both)
hole 13: left +.5, D(short), 0,B(long)
hole 14: 0
hole 15: 0, C
hole 16: 0,C(short), left +.5(long)
hole 17: 0,C(both)
hole 18: 0,C(both)

total when all short: left 2.0; right 2.0 - perfectly balanced
total when all long: left 1.0; right 3.0 - right favored by 2.0 - still very balanced

now look at Lake Lewisville:

hole 1: 0,C
hole 2: 0,C
hole 3: left +.5, D
hole 4: 0,B
hole 5: 0,C
hole 6: 0,B
hole 7: right +.5, D
hole 8: right +1, A
hole 9: right +.5, D
hole 10: right +1,A
hole 11: 0, C
hole 12: 0, C
hole 13: right +1, A
hole 14: right +1,A
hole 15: 0,C
hole 16: right +1,A
hole 17: 0,C
hole 18, right +.5, D

course score: left .5; right 7.5... right favored by 7.0! this is probably the highest score in the DFW metroplex. a very unfair course from lefty-righty view.

anyway, food for thought. i'd be interested in hearing how this model works on other courses around the country. it is a good way to force yourself to remain objective when evaluating lefty-righty situations.

So......Sandalman throws left-handed?

yep

In a world of "righty courses" it's no wonder he's so paranoid... LOL! ;)

So......Sandalman throws left-handed?

btw, i believe most courses are overall fair. and a huge percentage of holes that have a reputation as favoring one or the other actually are the reverse. i would guess most courses come in around 1.5 - 3.0 in favor of the righties. thats not a big deal. its the ones that do things like stay on one side of a stream for nine holes, cross over, and come all the way back on the other side that get unbalanced. i would say a course has to be above 6.0 before it provides an advantage to the side it favors.

the funny thing is lefties are aware of how it all works and tend to take it in stride. but righties, faced with anything resembling an annie, invariably start moaning about the leftiness of the hole :)

And as many lefties point out, a right turning hole many times isn't a "lefty biased" hole when the reality is that a righty turnover flight path matches the shape of the fairway better than a lefty hyzer.

Personally, even as a right-handed player, I prefer courses with more right-turning holes. (which usually favors southpaws except in the scenario Chuck describes) I just enjoy throwing anhyzer shots - there's something I really dig about releasing an understable disc with hyzer and watching it slowly flip into a long turnover flight, or throwing an overstable disc with anhyzer and watching it flatten, or throwing sidearms.

I also absolutely love to throw backhand rollers, which can achieve right-turns like no air shot can.

In another thread Chuck wrote this.


This question points up one of the key differences between BG and DG- we don't have the capacity to capture and track details like BG so that some of these rankings would be possible. BG tracks number of putts per round, fairways hit, greens in regulation, sand saves, etc. Some of our road warriors are the only ones who have seen enough of these players to make an assessment and usually they are more concerned about their own games and only play in one group at a time and can't watch all of the top players like a sports commentator.

One of the failings in our course designs is the inability to truly test a player's skills with a variety of shots similar to BG. Players can get to the top in our sport by mastering a limited number of throws. Good putting and a strong backhand throw will take you far. Top players on most courses can cash without ever throwing a roller, thumber or forehand, even though several do.....



My question is this.

Why are there not courses that force and reward all over skills, as in forcing multiple throws? Or why are there not more. I know some people talk about Winthrop Gold, but according to a friend of mine who just placed 20th this past fall, said you can play the course with well managed Rocs, maybe not win, but play very well.

A hole that forces a roller either backhand or forehand, it has a low celing that you cannot go over or through. Or a shot facing large, thick and tall hedges that you must overhand over. Or a hole that is on a 30ft diameter island with the pin in the center with a slight slope down to the edges, the hole is only 250ft long.

While I feel that these types of courses are not "fair" to beginners or Rec players, but as Disc golf becomes more mainstream and popular, and hopefully have TV coverage (with announcers) that the television audience would enjoy seeing someone trying to land on that sloped island hole throwing a relative short distance. This would have to be setup in towns like BG courses are; A good number of "rec/Amateur courses, and one championship monster course that is only played by the really good or the really brave.

Oh how I wish for those days to come. Does anyone know of a city that is blessed like what I described above?

Most of the time, the natural features on a site don't lend themsleves to forcing a particular type of throw. Ball golf can spend the money to do the types of design things on courses to force (encourage) certain types of shots. The cost to do it in disc golf is usually prohibitive. I look for opportunities like low ceiling situations where a roller is the best choice. However, lots of times the ground is rough in places where you find those low ceilings (pine, needles, cones, rocky ground, etc.) so it doesn't always work. On private sites like Highbridge, there's more potential to do some of these things but even there it takes money and usually some time for things to grow in the way you want them to create these shot scenarios.

A good number of "rec/Amateur courses, and one championship monster course that is only played by the really good or the really brave.
Oh how I wish for those days to come. Does anyone know of a city that is blessed like what I described above?



Charlotte

2 Rec courses (with alt pads and tees for Pro/Adv) - Kilborne, Reedy
3 Pro/Adv courses - Hornet's Nest, Renaissance Original, Sugaw Creek
1 Championship par 70 course - Renaissance Gold
and....then you can add in a couple of fun private courses that allow the public in for free.
And there are also another two 9 hole courses.
and.....30 minutes from Winthrop.

Highbridge would be the smallest town to meet that criteria. :)

A hole that forces a roller either backhand or forehand, it has a low celing that you cannot go over or through. Or a shot facing large, thick and tall hedges that you must overhand over. Or a hole that is on a 30ft diameter island with the pin in the center with a slight slope down to the edges, the hole is only 250ft long.




Holes that force any one particular shot should be avoided at all costs. Top notch course design is making holes that offer choices, and possibly reward a particular shot or skill. A hole with a low ceiling and no other options, forcing a roller, is awful. But imagine that same low ceiling hole where there are both an anhyzer lane and a hyzer lane around the outside where a safe 300 foot airshot can be made. But if you've got the skill, a 400+ foot roller can be achieved. Being rewarded for having a certain skill but not punished for lacking it - that's good course design.

I disagree. Why should a normal height air shot always be available? It's rare to see a hole where an air shot can't be made. However, there are vast numbers of holes where a thumber or roller are not feasible, usually due to poor ground conditions in the case of rollers. There's nothing in the rules or design guides that say a normal air shot must be available.

Granted, "normal" airshots have some variety with forehands, backhands and wrist flips. However, rollers can also be forehand, backhand and scoobers. There's nothing wrong with a wall of trees with groomed ground ideal for rollers. A thumber and/or high knife hyzer routes could or could not be available.

I've never seen it but I wouldn't give the hole a poor evaluation score if it was done well with sight lines and other elements, not just a wall for a wall's sake.

It doesn't have to be a normal air shot. It could be a hammer, a scoober, whatever. There should just be at least one other option, and the more, the better. Golf is exciting when there are choices to be made, each with varying amounts of risk/reward involved, and you can weigh your options.

A hole where the only option off the tee is a roller is bad. Just because you can throw a forehand, backhand or thumber roller on the hole doesn't count, it's still forcing a roller. A hole that gives you an advantage with a properly executed roller, while still allowing other type(s) of shots, is much better.

Again, no one considers a hole bad if you can't roll it. It's also not bad if you can't air it. But it's moot since there's not a single hole I've seen or heard about that blocks air shots off the tee, but hundreds that deny a roller. Discs are hi-tech wheels that rolled before they flew... :)

There's not a single hole I've seen or heard about that blocks air shots directly off the tee, but I've seen ones where there was foliage as little as 40-50 feet from the tee and a low ceiling. Basically there was an extremely tight window and it was a really poor choice to throw anything but a roller, so it was almost "forced."

I wish too that more holes allowed rollers. But clearing the forest floor of debris and otherwise preparing the ground for rollers is likely too labor intensive for most course designers and maintainers.