I am setting up a tournament for the spring on my home course. It will be a pro tournament and I am trying to design the course to make it a Gold level course. We are limited on length. The normal lenght is 6200ft with every thing long, and I was able to stretch it out to 7200ft.

I am looking for advice/ideas from people who have successfully done this feat. My course is decently tough from the long placements. SSA 51, but I am looking to make it an SSA of +57 (some of the holes even protected by OB are still reachable in one shot).

Any advice is welcomed.

Suggestions for limited length.

Moving tees to locations that limit choices off the tee is often more successful at creating challenges than moving the pins.

Changing 3 300' holes to 370' does less for scoring than changing 1 300' hole to 510'.

Changing a 350' open hole to a fair but challenging 300' hole can increase difficulty without adding length.

First of all, it's probably not necessary to lengthen every single hole. You're still going to want some holes in the 200-300' range. The most bang for your buck will be lengthening a few into the 600-700' range for legitimate 2-shot holes.

One thing you can look at is combining 2 holes that are in the 275-300' range into one par 4 and then adding a temp hole somewhere else in the course.

There were only 4 holes that I lengthend. I actually made one shorter, but changed the tee box to force a side arm over OB for the duece opp, but left a messy but safe hyzer 3 route.

1 by 40ft but it made a tighter hyzer line which threatened a lot of OB.
Another by 100ft but through a tighter mando gap.
Another by turning a 350 ft hole into a 700ft hole but through a grove of trees at 375ft.
The last one by only 50ft but through a tight sky anhyzer mando route with really tight OB boarders.

I am looking for advice about distances to put artificial OB lakes, how narrow to make the fairways at appropriate landing zones of 275/300/325. How far to make OB lines from pins, is 10ft too close? Is 40ft too far?

In essence, if the player at my tournament makes safe, smart and successful 300ft shots, they should come out at my premature par of 57. I have tried to eliminate any easy 2's. The only one is a 375ft uphill hyzer shot through two trees seperated by 50ft at a distance of 275ft from the tee with only a 40ft wide fairway the entire way.

While I feel I have done a successful job of configuring the course, I am still looking for insight. Our best two players in town with a combined 50 years of disc golf experience are at USDGC right now. I will be picking their brains when they get back but for now I am picking the D-Boards collective brain.

Yellow rope!

OB rope above the teeboxes to avoid the easy thumber shots. or maybe that is only a Texas thing.

It's hard to recommend specifics without seeing the site, so I'd say just make the par (and over) routes nice and safe while the birdie routes difficult, yet inviting. Penalize for poorly thrown shots but be reasonable. When OB is too close, a shot that just misses is just as OB as the shot that misses by 40'.

Yellow rope!



Considering how many feet of rope would be needed. My buddy, a long time friend of Harold Duvall, suggested borrowing the USDGC rope. However with our course being in downtown Birmingham, the rope would get stolen. So we have to opt for painted lines. We are going to need a lot of paint.

But if you have a 250ft down hill hyzer shot, with the pin guarded by a stream 10ft in front of the basket, would 40ft behind the basket be too close or too far of an OB line. Anything on the teebox side of the stream is OB. Kinda like #17 at Winthorp.

But if you have a 250ft down hill hyzer shot, with the pin guarded by a stream 10ft in front of the basket, would 40ft behind the basket be too close or too far of an OB line. Anything on the teebox side of the stream is OB. Kinda like #17 at Winthrop.




I think 40 feet is too close. It makes a landing area even smaller than the 30 ft radius Winthrop 17. I think the hole would be better if you give players a risk/reward scenario with maybe 60 feet behind the basket before OB. This way, a player has a better chance to throw safe. However, the longer they throw past the basket, the more treacherous the putt for a 3 on the comebacker putt. So, there's still a benefit to throw closer to the basket on the tee shot.

think 40 feet is too close. It makes a landing area even smaller than the 30 ft radius Winthrop 17.



Thanks, this was the type of help I was looking for. I have only seen Winthrop in pictures so it is hard to judge distances near pins. I have the caddy guide for this years set up somewhere but I cannot find it at the moment.

Thanks.

How narrow is too narrow to cut a wide open fairway?

I was thinking 30ft wide at distances of 300ft. (Pros can throw controled midranges that far). Or am I expecting too much. Again I want to punish bad throws, the 30ft fairway would be the ideal landing zone if even not OB.

Consider this, if Winthrop hole 17 is 60 feet wide by the pin for Gold level players throwing 250 or so, I wouldn't go any narrower than that if you're talking about OB on both sides of a fairway. Hole 13 fairway is probably just 50 feet wide or less and I think many feel it's just too narrow for fairness, especially since it's also sloped. I know Harold would prefer it would be wider but that's what he had to work with unless he actually marked a line that was outside the walkway.

What about 'bottlenecks'? Areas where the fairway gets really narrow (~25-30ft wide and about 15-20ft long), dividing what would be a spectacular drive (+350ft slightly up-hill and slightly left) from a safe and cautious lay up at 300ft. The bottle neck would punish mediocre attempts at a great drive. Effectively if the player would have sucked up their pride and layed up (still giving them a fairly simple three with a 100ft approach) they could have been very happy with the hole.

I am torn about where to make the OB areas. Do you punish blantant horrible errors, or do you punish mediocre attempts at greatness while leaving pride swallowing lay up and placement shots?

Try looking at it like this.

Make the par shots safe.

Anticipate the types of shots that will be attempted to go for birdies. (annie, big air over a tree, etc) make those landing areas fair. Now look for the most likely failures in execution of the birdie shots. Make those areas OB.

If the "heroic" shot (to use a phrase from John Houck) is a big hyzer over or around a set of trees 300' down the fairway, the most likely error is to hit the tops of the trees going over, or hyzer in before getting around them. Make the area under the trees and short left OB.

If the "heroic" shot is a big sweeping annie, the most likely failures are having the disc come out of the turn too early, or putting too much turn on the disc and it turning into a roller or going too far right. Make the area on the far left side OB, and past the basket on the right. Hole 16 at the USDGC is a great example of this.

Yes, you punish failed attempts at greatness.

Yes, you punish failed attempts at greatness.



Sweet /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

muhahahahahahaha <----(evil course designer laugh)

Big trees right in front of the tee pad right in the middle of the fairway. Yep. Trees. Lots and lots of trees. Have the fairway go right through a jungle with vines and dense growth.

Yep, that ought to do it

Gary, explain Houck's desire to put cacti in the middle of safe zones. :)

I think John just has a strong affection for cacti in general. :)

I don't think he showed any preference to placing them in the safe zones as opposed to anywhere else on the course. :D

Tony...maybe you should look for different safe zones :o

Funny Mitch. :)

My example - Live Oak - fairway on #25. The safe shot is a blind shot into a cacti mine field. I know I can't clear the gateway to the second landing zone, so I lay up. It's slightly better than a coin flip if it lands in/next-to cacti or in the open (favoring the open). It's still a usually easy par 4, as I take relief from the cacti, but still...

John has recognized that no matter how safe you make the environment, you occasionally have to deal with a few pricks... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Gary, explain Houck's desire to put cacti in the middle of safe zones. :)



It wasn't a safe zone, I was in the rough. But while at this past years Am World Dub's, we were stuck in the middle of a cati patch when I reached to pick up my mini and poked my finger with a needle. I thought I pulled out the 1 inch needle that was embedded 1/4 inch into my finger.

However, 2 weeks later when my finger was still hurting and swollen, I dug around with a pocket knife and tweezers, and pulled out an additional 3/4 inch piece of needle! :eek:

That freakin hurt, luckily it was not on my throwing hand. But my finger felt instantly better.

Funny Mitch. :)

My example - Live Oak - fairway on #25. The safe shot is a blind shot into a cacti mine field. I know I can't clear the gateway to the second landing zone, so I lay up. It's slightly better than a coin flip if it lands in/next-to cacti or in the open (favoring the open). It's still a usually easy par 4, as I take relief from the cacti, but still...



Tony, that is an excellent criticism. You're right -- that cactus is in exactly the wrong place.

Of course, nobody "put" it there. It was there before the course was.

It's the biggest cactus on or near the course, so I understand the parks department's reluctance to take it out. But I'll mention it to them again, along with a few other changes I'm recommending.

John,
What is your feeling on making recreational courses play to a par 36 for 9 holes?
What I am talking about is 2 holes under 200 as par 3's. 2 holes over 400 as par 5's and 5 in between as par 4's.
Of course for pro's it is stil your basic "good par 3" type course, but All signage and scorecard info is listed with these pars and also as a recreational course.

I feel this is the best way to help the players transition to actually playing disc golf on championship( new age) course that play to true par! ( whether thats 60-72 or whetever it actually plays to)

Maybe Johns new contract wont alow him to post anymore :confused:
Sometime I wonder if I'm back in High school :o

Some courses do not have available land space / property lines.

John,
What is your feeling on making recreational courses play to a par 36 for 9 holes?
What I am talking about is 2 holes under 200 as par 3's. 2 holes over 400 as par 5's and 5 in between as par 4's.
Of course for pro's it is stil your basic "good par 3" type course, but All signage and scorecard info is listed with these pars and also as a recreational course.

I feel this is the best way to help the players transition to actually playing disc golf on championship( new age) course that play to true par! ( whether thats 60-72 or whetever it actually plays to)


My name's not John, but I do agree ;)

Back to the topic on hand.

I have noticed that other Gold courses: Renny, Idlewild, Winthrop have pars in the 60's.

Considering the limited length and foilage we have to work with on our really great pitch and putt course, we are only able to stretch it out to 7200ft, and without making fairways 10ft wide, have par set at 58.

In my own opinion, and we will see when round ratings come out for the event, my course par 58 will likely be a 980-990 rated round, in opitmal conditions.

I feel the best score will be 55-56 out of the top pros playing.

So my question is, does par have to be set really high to be considered gold. Or does "gold" really depend on the difficulty of the design and likelyhood of punished shots throughout the course?

Because it would not be as appealing calling my event "The Blue George" instead of "The Golden George".

Par should be set for the players the course is designed for.

If it's a gold course, the par should be set for gold players.
The difficulty of the course would be measured by how the players shot the course compared to par.

If the Par is 62 and the average "Gold" player shoots 52, it is a very easy course.

If the par is 54 and the average "Gold" player shoots 60, then is it a very difficult course.

Ideally, the average player for the course design should shoot within 1-2 strokes of the par under ideal weather conditions.

JMHO
GnDuke

There's not really a total par requirement but it has to do with the lengths of the holes and where doglegs are located and carries across water. If a hole has mostly 3s by Blue level players then it's likely a Gold level hole. No course with an SSA under 49 should be considered a Gold course.

If the SSA for my event ends up being a 49, then I will be extremely shocked.

Only absolutely perfect drives will be able to award 2's on the 10 holes that will be reachable from the tee box, some of these "reachable" shots are over 350ft and navigating through trees, they are not impossible, only perfect. There will be two holes which I guarantee will yeild scoring averages above 4, and two more holes should yeild scoring averages really close to 4. There are 4 holes which are par threes that will have to be well played 3's, driving to the correct landing zone, and then making accurate upshots to well guarded greens. So I am setting up the course has 14 par 3's and 4 par 4's.

I expect the average Gold player to shoot between 56-59, and Blue players to shoot between 60-65. This will make up the predominate players at the event.

There are 4 opportunities for a duece that have a negilible risk unless a horrible shot is made. But at distances of 370, 351, 274, and 282ft I do not expect all to be made except by the winner. Add our normal April wind to the course, and I will expect SSA to be closer to 60.

After the event, I will break up the players by rating into their respective divisions and compare scoring averages with par between divisions.

AH HA!

I did it. It was an incredible turnout for our event. 66 players with 33 total pros.

Top score on the "short" set up was 53, and the "long" being 54.

SSA's judging on the unofficial results were 60 for the short and 62 for the long.

Here is the Pro Scoring Distribution. I did not do the Am's, it was too brutal for them to be written down on paper.

http://www.discgolfbirmingham.com/files/TGG_2006/tgg_scoring.JPG

Hmm, if you've got pros scoring well into the teens on individual holes, I'd guess that there's something wrong.

I witnessed what happend on holes three, four, and eight. The guy refused to take a drop and continued to re-throw. He was throwing thumbers at the basket on a really small green from 100ft away. As for the other hole, the player had to re-tee until their disc hit inbounds. Not impossible, but highly unlikely if they kept going for the basket 410ft away. Both players were rated above 975.

#16L was just like 888 at Winthrop excpet the trees were on the sides of the fairway instead of the middle. It was very tough, but also manageable if you stuck a 400ft sky anhyzer tee shot.