Ok, we had our last tournament of the year in Switzerland last weekend and there were some complaints about a mando.

The hole looks like this:

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R.....T....fxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

R is a road - on or left is OB
f is a small wooden fence
F is a tall steel fence
T is the tee
M is the mando - disc must pass on the left side
B is the basket
x is OB

There are a couple of not so great pics here (http://www.swissdiscgolf.ch/4_Galerie/Chlausgolfen2005/photos/photo20.html) and here (http://www.swissdiscgolf.ch/4_Galerie/Chlausgolfen2005/photos/photo21.html).

The idea was that people with really big arms could not go out over the soccer field and over the big fence in an attempt to park the hole in one shot. We envisioned that someone would have to play a straight low shot (because of the trees) about 220 feet and then go for the green with the second shot. (To the mando, it's about 205 feet. To the end of the small fence, it's about 290 feet.)

Someone (who missed the mando but ended up in-bounds and bitched about having to go back to the drop zone because he didn't pay attention at the players' meeting and didn't realize the mando was there!) complained that the hole was hard enough and that the mando shouldn't have been there.

His argument is that a mando is supposed to make you change direction on the hole. My argument was that a mando forces you to play a hole in a certain way, but not necessarily change direction. For example, the 'Clown's Mouth' at Winthrop doesn't force a change of direction, it just forces you to play low and straight down the fairway.

My question: Is this a good mando or not?

seems like a safety designed mando. so that people don't "get used to" going over the SOCCER FIELD on the right, you are restricting their options. This seems to be a safety based mando, not merely to add challenge. those that can turn it around that second to last pole can still have a chance at getting to the basket (lefty hyzer) but cutting the corner there looks like a low chance of hitting folks, just hitting the corner of the fenced area, whereas people are more likely to be playing in a direct line to the basket, making a right hyzer breaking the mando a safety issue. Do I understand it correctly?

It's not really a safety issue. If the soccer field is in use by the local team we can't play that hole (or another one for that matter). Soccer has priority over all other outdoor non-mountain sports in Switzerland. They (soccer players) attempt to drive their spikes through our discs if we end up on their field. :mad:

The idea was simply to make the hole more challenging. I don't know if a lefty hyzer or a righty sidearm can get the disc under the tree branches, around the mando AND over the tall fence in front of the basket. I'd respect the guy (or gal?!) that could do it.

wow! that sounds like an AWESOME hole. i wanna play it!!

The idea was that people with really big arms could not go out over the soccer field and over the big fence in an attempt to park the hole in one shot. We envisioned that someone would have to play a straight low shot (because of the trees) about 220 feet and then go for the green with the second shot. (To the mando, it's about 205 feet. To the end of the small fence, it's about 290 feet.)



How about a backhand roller (for a RH thrower) to the end of the fence and around the corner? :cool:

just out of curiosity, how long did it take you to type that?

p.s. that hole is "(quote on quote) hard-core" perfect for a short asian lefty, like me :) :)

If the mando was just for challenge's sake, why not make the carry over the fence in the 400-500 ft. range and let the big arms rip at it if they choose to take the risk. Was there anything prohibiting you from backing the tee up?

How about a backhand roller (for a RH thrower) to the end of the fence and around the corner? :cool:



Yes, this could be done - but not in the snow! :D

If the mando was just for challenge's sake, why not make the carry over the fence in the 400-500 ft. range and let the big arms rip at it if they choose to take the risk. Was there anything prohibiting you from backing the tee up?



Unfortunately, we can't back the tee up more than 10-15 feet.

Good mando. I see nothing wrong with that hole myself, even though I don't have a 300' backhand and couldn't park that hole.

Don't let any whining no-attention-paying losers change it.

If the only person who complained wasn't listening during the mando announcement at the Player's Meeting then it sounds like his real problem wasn't the mando :eek:

I'm no design expert, but trying to get rid of mandos and only using them when no other option is available seems to be a good practice. could you move the basket closer to the fence so that over-the-top attempts are less likely to lead to birdies (higher risk vs. reward ratio)?

ps: nice drawing. i usually have a lot of trouble aligning things when trying to do that in a post.

I've played a lot of courses and it seems to me that you have way too many ob's and mando's; to have some is ok as long as they make sense. There is a private course that I will never play again because the guy who designed it (not a real course designer) made all of the holes favorable to his game by making holes that are only reachable by a roller and holes where you cant throw over the top for the sole reason that he couldnt do it himself.Its his course in his backyard so I guess that he can do what he wants but you wont catch me giving him $5; and I play Red Rock, Twin Parks, and all of Houcks courses a lot so it has nothing to do with the money.

How far is it horizontally from the end of the fenceline to the polehole - how far over laterally is it? 100 feet? 200 feet?

Also, how high is the "big fence?"

If we assume that it's 320 feet straight ahead to reach pin-high with the basket, and it's only 200 feet over to the polehole, then that "big arm" shot over the soccer field is only about 375 feet. That shot isn't over 400 feet until the lateral distance reaches 240 feet.

Now, if that "big fence" is 15 feet high, then it's a different story. :D

It's about 125 feet laterally to the polehole.

The 'big fence is at least 15 feet high!! :p

For anyone that's interested, here's a map of the entire course. There are OB's that come into play on 4 of the holes - 5 if you hit an early tree on hole 1. There are two mandos - holes 4 and 5.

Space is limited in Switzerland and we have to do what we can to make challenging courses. We can't simply petition the Parks Dept. to give us 20 acres to build a disc golf course. All of our courses are in very public places and we almost always have to wait somewhere because of bicyclists or walkers. Sometimes we can't even play certain holes because of picknickers and such. No, it's not ideal. But, that's the way it is here.

Reitplatz - 31 (http://www.swissdiscgolf.ch/4_Galerie/ReitplatzKurs/RPS31.htm)

Whaaat maaan?? Oh you're taking a picture... (http://www.swissdiscgolf.ch/4_Galerie/DudesOpen2005/photos/photo38.html)

Our photographer / internet guy finally got some good pics of the course together. He added the red lines to mark the OB and the mando and the yellow circle to show where the basket is. In this pic you'll have a really good idea of what I was trying to describe with the fence and everything.

The Strip (http://www.swissdiscgolf.ch/4_Galerie/ReitplatzKurs/Pics/RP31/photos/photo9.html)

If the trees weren't on the left or the limbs were higher, I would like the mando better. As it is, it looks like most players are forced to play a safe low shot up the pipe, make an easy approach and drop in for a 3. I would think scores for good players were mostly 3s except for those who tried to get cute and went OB.

It doesn't look like there are any alternative tee shots that make any sense from a risk/reward standpoint. Maybe a forehand or lefty hyzer can be powered higher hoping to miss the limbs and get there for a possible 2. Or maybe a power righty can use a beat up flippy disc and rip one low down the pipe with lots of hyzer and have it turn late to get in position for a 2. That's what it looks like at least.

From what I see you could drastically improve score spread on this hole by moving the basket to where it is sitting where you can see it between the first section of the tall fence(inline with the the bottom of the angled piece of fence pipe) This would encourage people to run at the basket. Of cousre since i beleive you said you are tryingto keep peopel out of the feild , my idea would cause many more shots to RHBH annie into the feild (it appears anyway)

From what I see you could drastically improve score spread on this hole by moving the basket to where it is sitting where you can see it between the first section of the tall fence(inline with the the bottom of the angled piece of fence pipe) This would encourage people to run at the basket.



We can't move the basket because we use that pin position for at least 3 other layouts in the same park. We only have 9 baskets, but with the various layouts, we have over 30 different holes! That basket has 3 different 'tees' which we throw from depending on which course we are playing.

Looks like the fairway is a bit tight. I suppose it is short enough. If there is a decent big hyzer shot I will take it every time. Does playing the shot over the fence make the hole easier?


This thread makes me compare two different types of holes.

One hole has plenty of trees in a huge fairway. There are several different good angles to the hole as long as you don't hit an early tree. Creativity can certainly earn a bird.

The other is similar to this hole. There is only one shot available with OB, mando's, or thick rough controling where your shot must land. Nothing in the fairway, but a demanding shot required. With this kind of hole, a 2 is sometimes impossible, espescially when a dog-leg is required. The hole might be made a little more difficult and called a par 4.

My personal preference is to have more options off the tee, but I can see the merit of both types of holes. Dog-legs are pretty rare though, and fun to play when you get the opportunity.

Like Risk and or Reward ?

...Space is limited in Switzerland and we have to do what we can to make challenging courses......All of our courses are in very public places and we almost always have to wait somewhere because of bicyclists or walkers. Sometimes we can't even play certain holes because of picknickers and such.


Why don't you put the courses out in the yodelling [AKA, Coughdrop] country, where they wear those keen hats with short, colourful feathers, dance around cheese, and blow those 15-foot trumpets? Always lots of Cliffs, and Glaciers around for Obstacles, too. The only competition for space would be the Cows, and I'll bet their hooves would prove less damaging. :D

...Space is limited in Switzerland and we have to do what we can to make challenging courses......All of our courses are in very public places and we almost always have to wait somewhere because of bicyclists or walkers. Sometimes we can't even play certain holes because of picknickers and such.


Why don't you put the courses out in the yodelling [AKA, Coughdrop] country, where they wear those keen hats with short, colourful feathers, dance around cheese, and blow those 15-foot trumpets? Always lots of Cliffs, and Glaciers around for Obstacles, too. The only competition for space would be the Cows, and I'll bet their hooves would prove less damaging. :D



I heard that some courses offer sunbathing !!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I like mando's for only two reasons.

1) They are safety mando's preventing shots from flying over/across fairways, teepads, greens, specators, or other park goers in general.

2) They make the hole a true par X.
These mando's eliminate the "easy" route to the basket. They force the player to play smart and/or ultra risky to get the birdie. Just look at Harold Duvall's reasons for making #15 at Winthrop a triple mando instead of a double. Perfect example of making a mando for the sole purpose of taking away the way too easy shot.

The triple mando started as a double mando. Players were going over the top of the trees, and it was very difficult to judge if the mando had been made or missed.

The top bar was added to force a low shot that was easy to judge and probably in line with his design for the hole.

The triple mando started as a double mando. Players were going over the top of the trees, and it was very difficult to judge if the mando had been made or missed.

The top bar was added to force a low shot that was easy to judge and probably in line with his design for the hole.



Right, while adding the top bar made the judgement easier, and it aligned with the hole design. It also took away the easier over the top shot.

what about trimming the first tree on the left a little to allow for a rhbh anny or a big lefty hyzer?


I like the mando in general, wierd since I am sure I would have the shot to go over the field.

We only have one mando hole in Topeka, it is mando since there is a softball field that you would throw ove rif not for the mando, so in general it is good.

Overall I agree that mando should be used for saftey. I am not a big proponent of using mandos to make holes more difficult, when was the last time you teed up at the local munie for a round of stick and had to play a forced flight path? The other thing that I really disagree with is using rope to define fairway, it is neat for a novelty, but in general I think the sport should be more natural, if you want a tight fairway on the course plant trees, dig ponds and streams, or plant shule. I would think that this is the way things will tend to go in the future, but who knows every year more and more courses go with the rope,,, Last year one of my beloved KC courses was strung out, neat course, couldnt stand to play it more than once.