What is the infatuation with designing courses where water comes into play all the time?

Water hazards are simply not necessary at all in DG. It was never a part of ball golf for 200 years.

St. Andrews is the greatest course ever designed, and it has no water at all.

You could make the argument that Augusta is the greatest American course, and it only has tiny streams. The water itself is certainly not the hazard.

All water hazards do is force people to lose discs, look for discs, creates a market for disc divers, etc.

MOSTLY WHAT IS DOES IS SLOW THE PACE OF PLAY AND RUIN THE EXPERIENCE FOR NEWBIES!!!

People, please stop designing using water. Try to have a little imagination. OB in the woods or across line on the ground counts the same as water on the scorecard.

This possibly may be the dumbest thread I have ever read.

Disc Golf is more than you losing your disc's , and being upset about it. The earth is composed of mostly water, your complacient arse is composed of 98% water, it is the basis of all life on this planet. And you wish to dismiss it as an element of course design....... Here is an idea, stop throwing your plastic in the water. Water is perhaps the greatest asset to course design outside of elevation . For example : http://www.stillruns.com/edith/fountain_hills.jpg

or

http://www.disclife.com/photos/mem02_04.jpg

How could you play this course with out water ?
This is one example of one million.

Water rocks!

Learn to stay out of the water, and find better things to complain about . :D

You could make the argument that Augusta is the greatest American course, and it only has tiny streams. The water itself is certainly not the hazard.



Ask the numerous golfers who have to make the decision to go for it or lay up if the water is not the hazard.


And then look at Pebble Beach, the TPC at Sawgrass, Bay Hill...

Steady Ed scolded every designer for years if they designed courses used by beginners with any water crossing. His concern was as much for safety and liability versus losing discs. In keeping with that, most DGCD designers I believe try to make sure those playing from the short tees will not have to throw over or be "forced" to throw too near water, especially if it's deeper than 18" or so (it's stated in the PDGA guidelines under 4. Hole Notes www.pdga.com/makecrse.php (http://www.pdga.com/makecrse.php) ) That's the case on the new Steady Ed course at the IDGC from the shorter Red tees.

From the Blue or longer tees, I don't think players find most water holes unfair or inappropriate as long as they have a longer route available where they can play safe if they choose. At least on courses where I've designed optional water crossings, players are more upset with themselves than me if they lose a disc in the water because they made the choice of the riskier route and I didn't force them. On the IDGC Steady Ed course, there are several forced water crossings from the long tees. However, we're looking at having a policy where the player may immediately proceed to the Red tee and be playing their third throw without having to tee off from the Blue tee and risk losing a disc. The rule is that players going OB off the Blue tee must go to the Red tee as the drop zone anyway, so it works out to be a neutral option.

As a general comment, my preference would be to have all water OB be shallow and easy enough to retrieve discs. Unfortunately, we can't always control mother nature to serve our needs. However, I would hate to lose the aesthetic quality of water holes as part of the fabric that makes our sport one of the most beautiful.

BTW- this is a disc golf MB, not ball golf .
But my buddy Tony makes a great point .

However, I would hate to lose the aesthetic quality of water holes as part of the fabric that makes our sport one of the most beautiful.



Brilliant!

This possibly may be the dumbest thread I have ever read.

Disc Golf is more than you losing your disc's , and being upset about it. The earth is composed of mostly water, your complacient arse is composed of 98% water, it is the basis of all life on this planet. And you wish to dismiss it as an element of course design....... Here is an idea, stop throwing your plastic in the water. Water is perhaps the greatest asset to course design outside of elevation . For example : http://www.stillruns.com/edith/fountain_hills.jpg

or

http://www.disclife.com/photos/mem02_04.jpg

How could you play this course with out water ?
This is one example of one million.

Water rocks!

Learn to stay out of the water, and find better things to complain about . :D



Tell me how you really feel... not to mention you really made some great points... like, "water good".

I never said a course should not have water. Obviously, for a course to have grass, you have to have water. It simply does not need to come perilously into play on every other shot (which is very common in Texas and Oklahoma).

I noticed a nearly complete absence of water on a lot of the big WC course, which are set on ball golf courses. Instead, all manner of hazards are employed BESIDES water.

My point, which apparently was not stated clearly is that OB counts the same as water, why not use it more? Stop making people fetch their discs from the water so they can take a penalty.

I noticed this site plan for a new course. No water that comes into play.

http://www.sfdiscgolf.net/construction/docs/Site%20Plan.pdf

However, there is water in the area... maybe even has a fountain.

Ask the numerous golfers who have to make the decision to go for it or lay up if the water is not the hazard.

And then look at Pebble Beach, the TPC at Sawgrass, Bay Hill...



You are talking about a hazard penalty. You do not need water to create hazards. If we are talking about score, they all count the same.

However, there is water in the area...



Like the Pacific Ocean maybe? Anyone who's played the San Francisco Safari will recall a few "forced" water crossing holes. I played it in the 90s and it seems like I remember a similar rule where you could proceed to a drop zone on the other side and be playing your third shot instead of teeing from the long tee.

You do not need water to create hazards.



No you don't. However, water provides one of the easier "lines" to delineate whether you are in the hazard or not. On public courses where it's hard to maintain say sand traps, it's one natural feature that usually provides a decent OB line. Anyone who has played the USDGC would agree that if the two miles of yellow rope wasn't needed, it would improve the aesthetic experience immensely.

You do not need water to create hazards.



No you don't. However, water provides one of the easier "lines" to delineate whether you are in the hazard or not. On public courses where it's hard to maintain say sand traps, it's one natural feature that usually provides a decent OB line. Anyone who has played the USDGC would agree that if the two miles of yellow rope wasn't needed, it would improve the aesthetic experience immensely.



Certainly, I can see the point of the aesthetics of water.

I just think a short line of railroad, ties, bricks, grass, anything really can serve the same function in terms of marking an OB. It is simply not necessary for creating penalties, and many times cause more problems in that regard than is needed.

Most courses that have water in play do not force players to cross that water. You normally have a perfectly good par route to the basket that doesn't take you too close to the water.

However, if you want to play for a birdie, you are forced to control a tougher shot and prevent it from coming to rest in the water. This is the essence of risk and reward. Normally shorter tees (when available) avoid crossing water.

The same risk/reward potential is there with roped or lined OB areas, but they don't have the beauty or drama of potentially deep water.

I suspect what triggered your initial post is perhaps encountering holes where water hazards were not done well? Holes with water hazards aren't inherently bad but have a wide continuum in terms of how well they were done from sadistic to serene. At the sadistic end might be a hole where it required a 320 ft throw to cross a pond with trees lining both sides of it so there was no bail out and no policy that allowed you to take two and go to the other side. At the serene end it might be a 4 ft wide sandy bottom creek bed with 6 inches of clear, babbling water running along the edge of a fairway. There's a wide range of water hole quality in between those with several that several experienced designers and players might find fault with.

Water also plays into the mental aspect of the game. It forces you to focus on the shot and try to forget that you could lose a disc. In that respect, a marked off OB is not the same. Sure, it counts the same on the score card, but it doesn't play the same in the mind (at least not in my mind).

How do I overcome water phobia?
I, for one, have extreme disc-golf water phobia. I throw far enough to make it over most water holes, unless I am throwing the water hole. Then it lands just short.
How do I overcome this phobia?
My husband suggested I take a bunch of discs out and throw (perhaps I should wait until the water warms up a bit and throw where they can be fished out, but then similar to artifical (rope) water, it is not the same.)

I've heard of situations where players were not allowed to retrieve their discs from an artificial OB area and use them the rest of the round to emulate losing them in deep water. Unless they had a spotter holding your "lost" discs, I think they really allowed players to retrieve them but just not use them the rest of the round on an honor system.

Don't consider your normal drive what you are able to throw over water. I'm sure you 'short arm' some drives on dry land just like we all do. Measure your weenie drives and consider that in your calculations of your chances to clear water. Unless a shot over water will most certainly reduce your score by one throw versus going around, don't worry about going over water and risking the penalty and lost disc. More egos have cost shots than conservative play.

Exactly. Take a simple 300 ft. shot, then place a big pond smack in the middle. That can get in your head. Some players will park the hole, some who ordinarily would park it, lock up and go in the water. I have played courses in CA., AZ. and FL. that have shots either along or over water. I love those shots!!! It's all about confidence in your abilities, and knowing your limits.

Hey Laura , I will buy you some floaties for your b-day.
That should help. Now all you need is to take your wet beaver out to cedar hill , and throw over the pond. Problem solved !

Thanks, Lee. Next time I'll just take my beaver to the pond with me. She usually boosts my confidence, especially when she's wet.
I played my first full round of 18 holes yesterday. First full 18 in 15 months (since I got pregnant). I threw in the beaver pond 3 times on hole 17 on the beaver course. (even when I went around it)
Ask anyone and they will tell you that my problems with disc golf are almost completely mental. It's always been that way. Just as I was beginning to overcome some of them, I took a year off. So, it will take much, much longer to work on it.

If there is anything I can do to help, just let the discboomer know! Perhaps you should spill a little bit of water in front of the tee pad, where ever you are. It will get you acclimated to throwing over water. :D

"Why water at all?"

Because it's great, pure and simple. Why should designers and those that maintain disc courses go out and string a bunch of rope, lay bricks, or lay railroad ties? That's a waste. Water has aesthetic value, and psychological powers. People don't choke throwing over grass, they choke throwing over water. That's a powerful thing. It weeds out the good from the bad. Step up and make the throw. Just as much as putting is a mental game, so is playing near water.

I noticed this site plan for a new course. No water that comes into play.

http://www.sfdiscgolf.net/construction/docs/Site%20Plan.pdf

However, there is water in the area... maybe even has a fountain.



This is a map of the permanent course currently being installed in Golden Gate Park.... :D :D :D :D

There is NO useable water in THIS region.........BUT as chuck eluded to.
Go play the SF Safari....there are 2 other TEMP courses that DO make a player throw over water OR take a stroke and go to a drop zone. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
:D

Check out some of the photos from Hawaii, those guys do not have a problem with water .
http://www.hcdc.us/video02.gif

I know the pic sucks, but u get the idea

If you want to design in the option to concede the water and go to the short tee, and you don't want to bend or break any rules, designate the area immediately behind the long tee as out of bounds for that hole, and the short tee as the drop zone. Then a player can simply set his disc down out of bounds and head to the short tee.

If you are running a tournament where there are not enough gators in the lesser-skilled divisions for them to get ratings playing short tees, this is a humane way to let them play the long tees but not sacrifice their discs on the long throw over water.

"Why water at all?"

Because it's great, pure and simple. Why should designers and those that maintain disc courses go out and string a bunch of rope, lay bricks, or lay railroad ties? That's a waste. Water has aesthetic value, and psychological powers. People don't choke throwing over grass, they choke throwing over water. That's a powerful thing. It weeds out the good from the bad. Step up and make the throw. Just as much as putting is a mental game, so is playing near water.



OB is OB....

Anyway, I digress.

Local drainage creeks in the DFW area are not picturesque pools, with fountains, breaking surf and hula girls. Mostly, they are festering, motor oil soaked poison ivy infested breeding ground for mosquitoes, the the black plague, etc. Unfortunately, these drainage creeks also seem to be the areas that are offered for disc golf courses by the local parks departments.

So, just because they are there does not mean that they need to be used. There are alternatives that can be equally punitive (or more so really).

My point is that in 100 degree heat of the summer it is no fun to go traipsing off into the creek bed bush to get your disc only to come out covered in poison ivy or bug bites just to make the hole more "challenging" (which is BS to begin with--isiland greens now there is a challenge---and all you need is a mark on the ground).

I do not think that you see the big picture here .
Our beloved sport revolves around the generosity of local parks and recreation dept's . If they see fit to allow disc golfers to install a public course on their property, we should be eternally grateful. Most cities consider disc golf a fringe activity, the fact that we have any interaction with the city still blows my mind. You may want to take your limited knowledge of disc golf, and visit some other courses.
Veterans Park- Garbage dump @ one point in time , today it plays as one of the best courses in the metroplex.
Z-Boaz- another dump for construction materials / jungle of ivy, thorns , and the deepest darkest rough you may have ever seen , today one of the best courses in TEXAS.
Cedar Hill- Never a dump, this property was private for many years, but the landscape was awful. I left a couple pints of blood on that course when we were installing it , not to mention the poison ivy I provided a nice home for, for the better part of 2 months. Today, disc golf paradise.

For you to post such things is an insult to those whom have put forth their TIME , EFFORT ,BLOOD , SWEAT, TEARS , PASSION ... You need to spend some time not throwing plastic in the water , and working on a course. Attend a city council meeting , give back, put forth the time and then open your mouth. I noticed you live in the N.Dallas area. Hook up with Ron Sillman out in McKinney , he will give you some work to do .

BTW- Bradley, MAN UP

I have seen people dive into those festering pools of lovliness just to fetch a disc for somebody else. NOT EVEN THEIR OWN PLASTIC, that is what it is all about . Brotherhood / Sisterhood, good times, battle scars, and first and foremost DISC GOLF BABY, YEAH !!!!

Good day to you sir !

BTW- Bradley, MAN UP

I have seen people dive into those festering pools of lovliness just to fetch a disc for somebody else. NOT EVEN THEIR OWN PLASTIC, that is what it is all about . Brotherhood / Sisterhood, good times, battle scars, and first and foremost DISC GOLF BABY, YEAH !!!!

Good day to you sir !



You are taking my dislike of water hazards very personally...

I think YOU need to LIGHTEN up.

I fetch discs for folks all the time. Especially Greenbelt, because I have a very long pole. :D

You said long pole. :D

And no, you are incorrect. I have not a problem with your dislike of water. I have a problem with you jumping on this MB and disrespecting what disc golf in North Central Texas has to offer. Let's just say that a potential sponsor was on this MB and read your post . What image does that convey ? People work to **** hard for somebody jump on this MB and disrespect their efforts. Efforts that yeild nothing but a sense of accomplishment and pride from giving back to their community.

This festering oil infested creek surrounded by Ivy that you speak of ( I am assuming you are refering to Jimmy Porter ) , somebody put their heart and soul into that place to make it what it is today. You just took a big ol' steamy dump on somebodys hard work and efforts. Not to mention questioning the course designers integrity . Think b4 you speak. ( or type )

Go play with your long pole , and have a nice day . Perhaps we can play a round some time . I would love to show you how to throw over water .

. Not to mention questioning the course designers integrity.



Oh, Lord, give me a break...

If anyone was insulted, it was me. Did you read your first response? Nowhere did I mention anything about any course, designer, area, etc. and you felt it was necessary to insult the entire idea of the thread just based on me stating my opinion.

I did not attack or direct any comments to ANYONE. Yet, you haven been attacking ME non stop for some reason.

I will meet you anytime you want BTW. I am not hard to find.

All OBs are not the same.

Contemplating an iffy water crossing, versus a safe route, brings disc selection into play in a way no yellow rope ever could. You think you can make it....but do you risk your #1 driver? Or do you pull out a more expendable disc....and perhaps miss the shot because you were afraid to risk your #1?

And watching the throw over or near water and wondering if it will make it is EXCITING!

Acknowledging, of course, those who pointed out that there should be no forced crossings that exceed players' skill levels for those particular holes, and a wide safety margin for newbies and rec players to minimize lost discs.

All OBs are not the same.

Contemplating an iffy water crossing, versus a safe route, brings disc selection into play in a way no yellow rope ever could. You think you can make it....but do you risk your #1 driver?



I acknowledge what you say here, but I frankly do not like the idea at all.

Can you imagine someone losing a club for the entire round if they hit a ball in the water? Leaving there set of clubs compromised? The idea is silly outside of the realm of DG.

Jack Nicklaus once said he never wanted to win by taking the club out of the other guy's hand. That meant he never wanted to win if the other player met with an unfortunate event (like breaking or losing a club). Jack only wanted to win when he beat you with everything you had.

I think that this "losing discs is punitive punishment that adds excitement to the game" attitude is really most advantageous to the sponsored players who have stacks of plastic and do not pay for any of it to begin with.

Losing discs is simply not necessary, in my opinion.

Water is not handled the same in BG and DG nor is the club and ball the same as our disc, which is a combination of both. Water in DG is usually OB but "only" a hazard in BG. So, you really have to evaluate water hazards in terms of DG course design and how it fits in without reference to BG as a valid way to discount how it works in DG.

While it's true that sponsored players have a steady stream of new discs to replace those lost or damaged, I'd be surprised if they didn't have several discs that they rely on that have been broken in and aren't immediately replaceable with a new one if lost. They also earned the right to be in that position and had to work their way to that level just like any of the rest of us faced with losing a key disc at the "wrong" time.

My point is that the possibility of losing a key disc based on your judgment for whether to use it for a throw (whether water or schule is involved) is part of the game of disc golf that's different from BG, not worse than BG. I still believe that good designers do the best they can to design holes so it's your own fault if you lose a disc than the fault of the designer. Since designers usually aren't the ones mowing and grooming the site, it many times doesn't work well at least in terms of schule if the site isn't maintained by the owner in the long run. But assuming water hazards don't increase in size or change position from the original design, it should hold up as a valid challenge for the long haul.

My three cents:

Make sure recreational tees are set up so that beginners will rarely throw their discs into unretrievable water.

Give advanced players option(s) that take the water mostly out of play.

Utilize water diagonally for advanced players so that they have to choose how much to try and cut off. Great risk reward shots involve shades of grey and not just "should I try to make this 400 ft. carry or throw 250 safe to 250 in".

[quote
I did not attack or direct any comments to ANYONE. Yet, you haven been attacking ME non stop for some reason.



[/QUOTE]

Attack, nope .
U R a sensative dude.
I am only pointing out the error of you logic.
You may have noticed that a lot of regulars have chimed in on this topic... there is a reason for that . You will see the light. Good day to you sir :D

Water is not handled the same in BG and DG nor is the club and ball the same as our disc, which is a combination of both. Water in DG is usually OB but "only" a hazard in BG. So, you really have to evaluate water hazards in terms of DG course design and how it fits in without reference to BG as a valid way to discount how it works in DG.



There are no "hazards" in DG. Everything is counted "OB", but results in a penalty the same as a "hazard" in BG.

BG requires re-teeing for OB, and a drop outside of the hazard for a hazard.

I do not discount water as much as I support alternatives.

It is not the water that bothers me so much, it is the poison ivy, bugs, sink mud, shear cliffs, flooding, broken glass, residential pollution, etc that typically comes with it.

In the summer, my dog loves it BTW. ;)

Can you give us any clues as to where this magical, inexpensive piece of property is? Most of us have to work with what is available. :(

There are no "hazards" in DG. Everything is counted "OB", but results in a penalty the same as a "hazard" in BG.



Not so. Read some of the other threads on hazards and you'll see the new hazard options being developed for DG. Players will see at least one example of these at Highbridge for Pro Worlds. We have marked areas where there's no penalty if you land in it but you have to move your lie back to the edge of the hazard on line with the pin. Or, another version is you have to go to a drop zone if you land in an area. No penalty. Or, creating areas that's a sand pit or filled with gravel such that you can't get good footing and may have to throw an overhead shot to escape. In a way, they are similar to casual relief areas we have now but done intentionally and stategically from a design position standpoint.

In addition, we have a hemlock tree near a basket where if your disc is suspended at any height in it, you must proceed to the drop zone 30 feet away from the basket but no 2m penalty. So, you can see we are borrowing the concept of hazards from BG but doing them in a way that works for DG.

Can you give us any clues as to where this magical, inexpensive piece of property is? Most of us have to work with what is available. :(



Obviously.

I really have no idea what that has to do with anything at all.

There are no "hazards" in DG. Everything is counted "OB", but results in a penalty the same as a "hazard" in BG.



Not so. Read some of the other threads on hazards and you'll see the new hazard options being developed for

DG. Players will see at least one example of these at Highbridge for Pro Worlds. We have marked areas where there's no penalty if you land in it but you have to move your lie back to the edge of the hazard on line with the pin. Or, another version is you have to go to a drop zone if you land in an area. No penalty. Or, creating areas that's a sand pit or filled with gravel such that you can't get good footing and may have to throw an overhead shot to escape. In a way, they are similar to casual relief areas we have now but done intentionally and stategically from a design position standpoint.

In addition, we have a hemlock tree near a basket where if your disc is suspended at any height in it, you must proceed to the drop zone 30 feet away from the basket but no 2m penalty. So, you can see we are borrowing the concept of hazards from BG but doing them in a way that works for DG.



There you go!!!! That is what I am talking about!!!!

That is ALL I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!!

That is someone using a little imagination... and a little variation.

It means that most course designers don't have the opportunity to create a utopian paradise. Usually the piece of property that is avaialable for Disc Golf is not suited for much else.

Do you have a project we could look at to see what you think a Disc Golf course should be? It seems you are disappointed with most of the courses you have played, maybe you can provide a model for the courses of the future to strive for?

It means that most course designers don't have the opportunity to create a utopian paradise. Usually the piece of property that is avaialable for Disc Golf is not suited for much else.

Do you have a project we could look at to see what you think a Disc Golf course should be? It seems you are disappointed with most of the courses you have played, maybe you can provide a model for the courses of the future to strive for?



Did I ever say that? No.

Did I say "my local courses suck". No.

Did I say, "I am so disappointed with my local courses". No.

I said "could we please stop using water as a hazard and use something else?"

I suppose saying "stay away from the water when designing" is the same as saying "please provide a utopia".

I will give you an example of a local course that uses water perfectly. Lake Lewisville. It is on the lake. How many times does the lake come into play? None really. Even the holes by the lake have non-lake routes.

The course is has almost zero water influence at all, yet it is one of the most picturesque water courses around. Looking around, it could also be made SUPER hard by designating the railroad tie areas as island greens, designating some landing areas OB, etc.

Now I suppose someome will say that if I like Lake Lewisville, I am "dissing" Course X, Y or Z.

[

It is not the water that bothers me so much, it is the poison ivy, bugs, sink mud, shear cliffs, flooding, broken glass, residential pollution, etc that typically comes with it.



Disc golf may not be the best thing for you to invest your time in, you just described conditions found on almost every disc golf course in the world.

You need to find a fly18 course, you would love it .

The question I have is where is water a nearly unavoidable part of playing any course in the area ?

I can only think of a few holes that do not provide a safe route to the basket that avoids the water, and I have been trying to get a patch of OB designated near the Tee Box on a few so it's within the existing rules to take a stroke and move to the drop zone when no alternate route is available.

If water comes into play only when you are attempting to birdie a hole, then it is a test of skill and accuracy with a known consequence. You throw your disc in the water, you will lose it. This is the same as getting it stuck in a tree.

Hey smasher, listen to GNDUKE, he knows his schtuff.

[

It is not the water that bothers me so much, it is the poison ivy, bugs, sink mud, shear cliffs, flooding, broken glass, residential pollution, etc that typically comes with it.



Disc golf may not be the best thing for you to invest your time in, you just described conditions found on almost every disc golf course in the world.

You need to find a fly18 course, you would love it .



I deal with it.

I would just rather not. Anyway, the point seems to be lost.

I would just rather not. Anyway, the point seems to be lost.



Hard to lose something you never had ! :D:cool::) :o:eek: :D :p :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

No ke'Ohana for CitySmasher......

Scared of island greens, eh? :D
http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/keohana/1024/FC09P_8.jpg


or lake on left, lake on left, lake on left for 3 or 4 holes.

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/keohana/images/banner.jpg
http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/keohana/310x233/04-30-10-04P.jpg

These pics are actual DG holes on an extremely private yet imaginary course. :D

Incidentally, i'm thirsty now.

How do I overcome water phobia?



Laura, check out the new thread I just posted here:
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=641827&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1

Hey smasher, listen to GNDUKE, he knows his schtuff.



Yah, I know, we played Sunday and talked about it...

except for island green and a small water feature 60 feet in front of the tee on hole 16, red players never have to throw over water at ke'Ohana, so i have no idea why it is even mentioned here. water is flirted with a lot, but not thrown over.

So it boils down to not getting enought REM sleep? If I artificially induce REM all will be better? I'll give it a try.
I think practice might work better, but since time with my discs is limited these days, I'll try inducing REM instead.

So it boils down to not getting enought REM sleep? If I artificially induce REM all will be better? I'll give it a try.
I think practice might work better, but since time with my discs is limited these days, I'll try inducing REM instead.



Hey Laura, when you win the Nostradamus Stack from Pat, you will have plenty of extra plastic to practice with. :D

BTW- Go colts! ( sorry laura )

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2121

No ke'Ohana for CitySmasher......

Scared of island greens, eh? :D
http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/keohana/1024/FC09P_8.jpg




Where is this?

That is uptown, brother. Should be beautiful. Is that a bulldozer?

Is this course being "built"?

Bradley, that is ke'Ohana. No you can not play there, nobody can, unless you sit with the cool kids @ the cool kids table . It is a totally private facility, currently being designed by pat ( sandalman ) . My player rating is too high to play there ( according to pat ) , but your rec status should get you in the doors! :D

CitySmasher's rating put's him above DocB on the invite list. :D

Hero , you have a PM.

Bradley, that is ke'Ohana.



Where is it?

I recently played 2 courses with water in Houston TX.

1) Oak Meadow (in Cypress) has 4 water holes (6 and 8-10) that are some of the most majestic I've ever seen. The lake on 8-10 is gorgeous, but it's opaque with a muddy steeply sloped bottom, so if you're more than 2 ft from the edge your disc is hopelessly gone. I absolutely loved these holes and I thought that they made the course. Andi Lehmann did a great job out there.

2) The second course was the Spring Valley finesse course (north of Houston). It had more holes with water, but the holes were nowhere near as scenic. Also the water was usually only a small part of the hole. These disc eating holes included muddy ditches, brown streams, swamps, and black pools. They weren't very pretty and it would've really helped to have a spotter. They were also scattered all around, and just a bad kick off the many trees could put you in the water and your disc was easily lost. Since I was traveling I only had a few discs with me, so I didn't even throw many of the holes for fear of losing a disc. Frankly this left a bad impression of this course, so some kinds of water can be negative too. This was one of the first times that water has been a negative factor for me. The combination of bouncing off trees into murky water on the finesse course is what I didn't like.

So for me, the moral of the story is that the amount of beauty that water adds to a hole is a determining factor for how much I like a hole. The OM holes are very beautiful, and they also have shorter routes that you can bail out on if you can't make it across the water. I didn't find the SV holes to be as scenic, so the disc eating water traps got annoying. (To be fair, if I was a local, and I had a bag full of discs that I didn't care about losing I probably wouldn't have minded as much.) Also, another key element is the amount of foliage. If there are too many trees that make an errant shot get a bad luck kick and be lost then it's more frustrating. OM didn't have as much foliage problems that came into play as SV.

Bradley, that is ke'Ohana.



Where is it?



It's imaginary...... :D

So for me, the moral of the story is that the amount of beauty that water adds to a hole is a determining factor for how much I like a hole.



I couldn't agree more.

So for me, the moral of the story is that the amount of beauty that water adds to a hole is a determining factor for how much I like a hole.

wonderfully expressed < applauding heartily >

I can only think of a few holes that do not provide a safe route to the basket that avoids the water



I know of 3 holes on 1 course where water is unavoidable from the long tees and mostly unavoidable from the short tees. For 17, there is some bail out to the left, but to MAKE SURE that you make it dry...your second shot is a pretty lengthy up-shot. Hole 18 and 1 gives you NO choice. I dont have a problem with water, but this example is poor design. That part of their course could (should) be better.

In defense of water holes, I havent seen or heard of any other examples such as this one.

So Citysmasher, how do you feel about this hole! :D

http://www.milehighdiscgolf.org/random_photo.php?photoID=813

Expo Park was a just a bit tough to play until the flood waters receded. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Note the creek overflowing the bridge in the background, usually that brigde clears the creek's surface by 4-5 feet. :eek:

nanook

2) The second course was the Spring Valley finesse course (north of Houston). It had more holes with water, but the holes were nowhere near as scenic. Also the water was usually only a small part of the hole. These disc eating holes included muddy ditches, brown streams, swamps, and black pools. They weren't very pretty and it would've really helped to have a spotter. They were also scattered all around, and just a bad kick off the many trees could put you in the water and your disc was easily lost. Since I was traveling I only had a few discs with me, so I didn't even throw many of the holes for fear of losing a disc. Frankly this left a bad impression of this course, so some kinds of water can be negative too. This was one of the first times that water has been a negative factor for me. The combination of bouncing off trees into murky water on the finesse course is what I didn't like.



I bring old beater discs when playing new courses on business trips or vacations for the very reasons you describe. Without a spotter, and playing unfamiliar courses with possible hidden water and areas of heavy foliage, it just doesn't make sense to risk losing treasured plastic. I'm usually never playing competitively in those situations, so it's not critical to have my regular discs. It's usually a course that I've never played before, so without any history, it's impossible to shoot a personal best. The goal of those visits is to check out a new course, not shoot your best competitive golf.

Bring you discs you don't care about losing and then you never risk a negative course review. :cool:

http://www.milehighdiscgolf.org/random_photo.php?photoID=813




Cool picture. If you threw a Dragon on that hole you'd probably have some interesting lies when it came to rest. You'd better make sure your shot went in the basket or you'd end up way farther away than when you last threw. :eek:

It is true you can achieve OB without having water, but there are limitations.
- Ropes � don�t work on a permanent public courses, only good for tourneys and private courses.
- Bricks and RR ties � Have fun getting the city or parks department mow around them. They will #$*&$! then have you pull them. I�ve seen it happen.

Plus water challenges your game. One of the best courses in Iowa is a temp course used for the River Cities Rumble. The course is going to be permanent this summer. Oh yeah it has tons of water. There must be something great about water and what it does for the course seeing how the tourney is going to be an A-tier this year.

Take a look at this course. Then have fun roping off these holes, and imagine the esthetics with out the water. You Can�t.

West Lake Park - River Cities Rumble (http://qcdiscgolf.com/Chads/WestLake/index.html)

West Lake Park - River Cities Rumble (http://qcdiscgolf.com/Chads/WestLake/index.html)



Man, I enjoyed just taking the pictorial tour! From what I saw, the water holes make the course. I love water holes, and it appears that the designer made excellent use of the lake. From what I saw it looks like the water holes elevate the course to a quality level several notches above what it would be without them. Let me put it this way-- because of the water holes I've now logged this a course that I'll try to play if I'm ever in the vicinity. I'd definitely drive out of the way and seek it out. Without the water it would be just an average course, and wouldn't have left much of an impression.

Thanks for sharing the pictures.

P.S.- I can't tell for sure, but it looks like the water is shallow enough near the shore that you can get your disc back. That's the best kind, and a bonus.

What courses have the most water holes?

As much as I love water holes, I've been wondering if it can be overdone. I think variety is essential to a good course. For example, if there were 18 holes where you might lose a disc in deep murky water with an errant shot, I think that might wear on me, and eventually frustrate me. Frustration foils fun.

For those who like water, have you ever played a course with too much water?

The course that got me thinking was Oak Meadow in the suburbs of Houston TX. I absolutely loved the water holes 6 and 8-10. I think they carried the course. But if your disc goes in then it's gone if it's over 2 ft from the bank. I started wondering if I would like 18 holes like this, even if each hole was great individually.

Looks like a beautiful course. However, some of those water hazards are going to be challenging for properly marking OB lines. It looks like high grass goes right to the water's edge on several of those holes making an OB call difficult. Looks like there's some nice rock/water boundaries making the call much easier on those holes. For PDGA majors, most water holes are marked rather than rely on a potentially difficult call at the water boundary.

It's a tough challenge with 2 miles of shoreline on the new Steady Ed course at our IDGC. We're trying to figure out effective ways to provide a permanent OB line because the water level in the lake, which is controlled with a dam, can shift the water/land boundary up to 80 feet in the shallow areas. This creates a huge difference in how challenging holes will play if the OB line changes that much.

West Lake Park - River Cities Rumble (http://qcdiscgolf.com/Chads/WestLake/index.html)



So, on Hole #5, what is the point to point distance from tee to pin? Is it just right to make some of the big arms thing about it (450-500ft)? THAT would make it much more awesome - an deuce to reward a very nice drive, or a standard 5-6 for not "going for it".

West Lake Park - River Cities Rumble (http://qcdiscgolf.com/Chads/WestLake/index.html)



So, on Hole #5, what is the point to point distance from tee to pin? Is it just right to make some of the big arms thing about it (450-500ft)? THAT would make it much more awesome - an deuce to reward a very nice drive, or a standard 5-6 for not "going for it".

And how often do you have to deal with throwing around a fisherman like the one in the picture?

West Lake Park - River Cities Rumble (http://qcdiscgolf.com/Chads/WestLake/index.html)



So, on Hole #5, what is the point to point distance from tee to pin? Is it just right to make some of the big arms thing about it (450-500ft)? THAT would make it much more awesome - an deuce to reward a very nice drive, or a standard 5-6 for not "going for it".



It's not reachable in one shot. 4 is a birdie.

And how often do you have to deal with throwing around a fisherman like the one in the picture?



Or picnic tables, grills, volleyball courts, park roads, etc?

Don't get me wrong, that's looks like one hell of a great course, but I wonder about potential safety considerations if it were to go permanent.

And how often do you have to deal with throwing around a fisherman like the one in the picture?



Or picnic tables, grills, volleyball courts, park roads, etc?

Don't get me wrong, that's looks like one hell of a great course, but I wonder about potential safety considerations if it were to go permanent.



The objects you speak of are removed or closed for the tourney and the areas of the park were the course is located is closed to the public. The pictures were taken when the park was open to all.

West Lake Park - River Cities Rumble (http://qcdiscgolf.com/Chads/WestLake/index.html)



I can't tell for sure, but it looks like the water is shallow enough near the shore that you can get your disc back. That's the best kind, and a bonus.



Most spots it drops off with in a few feet. I lost 5 discs in two rounds of 24. That was a fairly average amount. During the second round a dude on a kayak was roaming the shores fishing out discs on a few of the holes.

I lost 5 discs in two rounds of 24. That was a fairly average amount.



sure makes the "free" aspect of the game take on a new meaning. a $10 greens fee doesn't seem that bad when you're talking about $20-40 worth of plastic per round. I bet Dave, Dave, and Jim would drool over having more courses like that.

I lost 5 discs in two rounds of 24. That was a fairly average amount.



sure makes the "free" aspect of the game take on a new meaning. a $10 greens fee doesn't seem that bad when you're talking about $20-40 worth of plastic per round. I bet Dave, Dave, and Jim would drool over having more courses like that.



Keep in mind that this is just one data point; others' mileage may vary. Some golfers are more aggressive; I might play more conservative and throw safer shots in areas where losing a disc is a real possibility. As a 956-rated player, Denny, you might not lose any discs.

I lost one in my two rounds there. The water is definitely deep enough that if you are not within arms reach around the dam, you're lost. #5 is challenging enough without a "deuce or die" mentality for anyone. You can carry as little or as much water as you dare. I think I heard 600 in relation to straight point-to-point disctance.

I think I heard 600 in relation to straight point-to-point disctance.



That looks about right. The hole strikes me as a mirror image of the par-5 sixth hole at the Bay Hill Club &amp; Lodge in Orlando Florida. John Daly once famously took an 18 :eek: on this hole during the Bay Hill Invitational in the late 90s.

I lost 5 discs in two rounds of 24. That was a fairly average amount.



sure makes the "free" aspect of the game take on a new meaning. a $10 greens fee doesn't seem that bad when you're talking about $20-40 worth of plastic per round. I bet Dave, Dave, and Jim would drool over having more courses like that.


Almost all of my lost discs were due to poor decisions. This is the purpose of the course; it challenges your arm, technical skills, and most importantly your mental game.

This course is going in as a Championships caliber course made to punish mistakes. I can hear it now, disc golf is supposed to be for everyone; we already have a course in each of the Quad Cities for that.

Large metropolitan areas with multiple existing courses should design new courses that can keep up with disc technology and the rapid improvement player skill.

It truely is the best mix of golf I have ever played. Wait til you play the Dam hole.

Can't wait for the "A" Tier this year

Almost all of my lost discs were due to poor decisions. This is the purpose of the course; it challenges your arm, technical skills, and most importantly your mental game.

This course is going in as a Championships caliber course made to punish mistakes. I can hear it now, disc golf is supposed to be for everyone; we already have a course in each of the Quad Cities for that.

Large metropolitan areas with multiple existing courses should design new courses that can keep up with disc technology and the rapid improvement player skill.



I think that most pieces of land can accomodate courses that cover a wide range of player skill sets. I'd love to see new players be introduced to the game by playing the short tees on a course with par 4's and 5's that also has several other sets for intermediate, advanced, and "expert" ;) players. At this point in our development I think it's better for an area to have fewer courses that are designed for a wider range of players, have complete amenities, and are frequently used than to fragment our small player base.

Specifically regarding water shots: I've got absolutely no problem if players lose their discs due to greed or throwing a horrible shot, but want to minimize the chances that a beginner will lose a disc simply for throwing a bad shot.