It's probably both a tribute to Harold and also his "fault" that temporary and permanent island green holes surrounded by OB have been popping up over the past several years, even though the concept was borrowed from ball golf. The rules for how these are played have also been evolving. The first time out at the USDGC, it was pretty brutal with no mercy. You had to land on the green or continue rethrowing from the tee forever, which lead to several double digit scores on hole 17. Eventually a drop zone was added outside the green after three tries from the tee. Last year, it was two tries from the tee then proceed to the drop zone which was at the far end of the green.

There are two problems with how it's been done so far. (1) All versions have been more brutal than how ball golf has done it for hundreds of years, and (2) The 2-shot penalty creates a funky scoring distribution that doesn't make sense for a par 3 hole when shooting a 3 is the least likely score on the hole.

It's not to say we need to do everything like ball golf. But even though many have heard about "tin cupping" where you continue to hit shots until clearing a water hazard, what most don't realize is that was/is a player choice that is not forced by the rules. In ball golf, after teeing into a water hazard on an island green hole, players may immediately proceed forward to the drop zone if provided or to the edge of the water hazard. Of course, they can always retee but that's a choice, not a requirement.

So, Harold, some other designers and I have been brainstorming a better way to do island holes so they still have a scary effect but produce a smoother range of scoring to demonstrate skill differences. Here's what we've come up with to try this year on the island green at Worlds and potentially on hole 17 if the test works well. There's a possibility it might also be tried at an A-tier in a few weeks.

Here's how it would work, players get up to three tries to land on the green from the tee before moving to the drop zone where they continue trying to land on the green, although the drop zone would be close enough that virtually 100% of players would be on the green on the first try. The innovation is that there's no penalty added for missing the green each time from the tee other than the distance you have to rethrow to try again. In other words, if you miss all three times, you are shooting your 4th shot from the drop zone rather than your 7th which is what it would be using traditional throw and distance penalties.

This isn't going to make the tee shot any easier but the distance penalty will be more fair relative to the fact you threw a less accurate drive than required. The fewer shots it takes to land on the green, the better your score just like you would want to see on any other well designed hole. The cool thing compared to ball golf is that rather than just duplicating their one try from the tee and go to the drop zone, this proposal allows players to have the "fun" of trying the tee shot up to three times for the challenge of it but not be brutally penalized for those three attempts. In addition, many times island holes designs are OK under normal weather, but virtually become unplayable in the wind. This new option keeps the scoring range closer to the same neighborhood more like a regular hole will change in heavier wind.

Comments?

It takes out a lot of the pucker factor, and I think that is what makes the holes interesting.

It's clean and simple. I'd like to see at least one penalty stroke for failing on the first attempt, then no more penalty strokes after that. Maybe moving to the drop zone after two failed attempts (shooting 4).

It is a demanded shot hole, and there should be some penalty for not executing that shot correctly, but it should not become overly punitive.

When I play any hole that has a drop zone but requires more than one OB shot from the tee to use it, it feels extremely gimicky to me. That my opinion. :) It just feels like "putt putt rules" to me.

I liked how USDGC did hole 17 in 2005: land OB from the tee, take your penalty and move to an easier tee. You still get the 2/4 split on scores with very few threes, but it sures seems more like golf to me. It doesn't bother me that a par-3 hole only gets 2% threes scored on it if it is a hole like #17 at Winthrop Gold. It's a good hole that makes you very nervous.

I think it's a fantastic idea. It addresses the issue many of us have pondered for years in that many times OB is too penal in disc golf and comes into play much more often than it should. I would even suggest taking this one step further and consider designating other OB lines, when warranted, with this special condition. Competitors would re-throw from the previous lie but not receive the penalty stroke.

On a regular par 3 that's the same length as these island holes, if you teed off and landed near the hole for a 40-footer, I think you would be upset that you had to go back to the tee because it would feel like 1-shot penalty. While I understand the idea of getting the penalty on the first tee and not on shots 2 & 3, it still means you need an extraordinary shot (field ace) not just a great shot like most holes to save a 3. I think if the chance of going OB off the tee is maybe 1 out of 20 shots, then maybe having the penalty on the first throw makes sense.

The one thing about our island holes is that players have a much higher chance of missing a 10m radius circle than tournament ball golfers seem to have missing their island greens. Seems like they miss maybe 1 in 12 to 1 in 20 depending on wind. It's not uncommon for our Gold players to miss 1 in 2 to 1 in 4. So our challenge and resulting penalties are higher to start with if both the shot and distance penalty is applied.

I would even suggest taking this one step further and consider designating other OB lines, when warranted, with this special condition.



The concept definitely works in other situations. I think it would also be better on hole 3 at the USDGC than the retee that was done last year. Although, I think using a drop zone across the road with the normal 1-shot penalty would also have been better than a forced retee. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Fudging the rules, I don't agree with.

Island greens should have the same OB rules as any other hole. I would always think that any island hole should have a significantly easier drop zone.

I'll try tonight to post a pic of my latest island green that is going to be #18 on the new course being built. I had the rare chance that I got to decide the size of the island and how it is built. It's liver shaped and it's sloped from back to front so that you could possibly run a disc off the water up onto the island. The back side of the island slope up and we are going to make a rock wall around the whole island, but the rocks will be high enough to keep shots on the island.

3 sets of tees...the long tee will be elevated and only about 230, the red(short) tee is only about 110 feet.

Rick its gonna be a COVER SHOT! :D

Island greens should have the same OB rules as any other hole. I would always think that any island hole should have a significantly easier drop zone.




I don't disagree. But TDs haven't been following the design guideline passed down from ball golf which is to go to the drop zone immediately after missing from the tee. If they had been doing that and not brutalizing players, we might not have discovered an alternative. The proposed three shots then the drop zone is an improvement that produces better score distribution, and more opportunity to land a fun tee shot without being brutalized. This new option is allowed by our current rules under special conditions. It just hasn't been obvious.

The one thing about our island holes is that players have a much higher chance of missing a 10m radius circle than tournament ball golfers seem to have missing their island greens. Seems like they miss maybe 1 in 12 to 1 in 20 depending on wind. It's not uncommon for our Gold players to miss 1 in 2 to 1 in 4. So our challenge and resulting penalties are higher to start with if both the shot and distance penalty is applied.



If this was the case, why not just move the tee forward? You would certainly then improve the ratio of players hitting the green. You might not achieve the desired scoring distribution (with too many 2s and too few 3s still) but you'd achieve your hit green ratio.

Or, why not expand the green size? What rule says that it has to be 10m in radius?

The difference in putting skill between ball golf and disc golf leads to the reasons for more creativity in doing island greens to get a similar effect. If you make the hole shorter so only 1 in 15 miss, it truly turns the hole into a par 2, whereas in ball golf they still average slightly under 2 putts in competition on their island greens.

Increasing the green size is exactly what we're recommending so that players who are safe don't always have an easy putt. In addition, we are shifting the pin forward on the green to about 12-15 feet from the front edge so putting is trickier and many more landing in the back are knee knockers from 40 feet with a risk of putting OB. The other thing we've done at Highbridge is raise the pin on a mound about 18 inches higher than the island.

When I play any hole that has a drop zone but requires more than one OB shot from the tee to use it, it feels extremely gimicky to me. That my opinion. :) It just feels like "putt putt rules" to me.

I liked how USDGC did hole 17 in 2005: land OB from the tee, take your penalty and move to an easier tee. You still get the 2/4 split on scores with very few threes, but it sures seems more like golf to me. It doesn't bother me that a par-3 hole only gets 2% threes scored on it if it is a hole like #17 at Winthrop Gold. It's a good hole that makes you very nervous.

Rhett, I didn't ignore you before. I don't disagree with version 2005 as matching BG, just that duplicating BG design ideas in this case doesn't work as well since our putting is much easier. If our putting challenge was like BG, then you wouldn't have the 2/4 donut hole in scoring like you see on #17. On BG island holes, 3 is still the most common score since relatively few miss the island OB and relatively few get the birdie 2 even when landing on the green.

Why not give them a penalty stroke after the third miss? So it would be three shots and penalty stroke for going to the shorter tee so they would be shooting 5 from the drop zone. You give them the stroke for going to the drop zone.

The difference in putting skill between ball golf and disc golf leads to the reasons for more creativity in doing island greens to get a similar effect. If you make the hole shorter so only 1 in 15 miss, it truly turns the hole into a par 2, whereas in ball golf they still average slightly under 2 putts in competition on their island greens.

Increasing the green size is exactly what we're recommending so that players who are safe don't always have an easy putt. In addition, we are shifting the pin forward on the green to about 12-15 feet from the front edge so putting is trickier and many more landing in the back are knee knockers from 40 feet with a risk of putting OB. The other thing we've done at Highbridge is raise the pin on a mound about 18 inches higher than the island.



I agree with this post with two comments:

1) The "skill" difference between disc golf putting and ball golf putting is due to course design. The 10 meter radius circle, that many players still consider to define the "green" is the equivalent of a flat, 5 foot radius circle on a golf green, so I strongly agree that we need to increase the size of the "green".

2) Having elevated baskets that require getting the nose of the disc up makes putting, particularly when it's windy and there are drop-off's, more interesting. I'd like to see the standard basket have the bottom of the cage be about five feet off the ground. Having mounds that are even a bit higher (5-10ft.) will create the additional score variance due to putting that many of us would like to see. The game will be a lot more dynamic when picking a drive or approach route will require considering which side of the basket will afford the best chance at birdie and/or the most risk of bogey. I believe our game will have taken a huge step forward when budgeting in money for moving dirt to create real greens is the norm. Just another reason for designers to use their budgets to fully create 18 great holes instead of 24-27 good holes.

If you're going to do this format at all, there's no place nor need for a 2-shot penalty in the mix. However, I wouldn't be against making it four shots before going to the drop zone versus taking the extra penalty on the third. I could see doing the 4 shot version before drop when you have a widely varying skill level playing the same tee so it gives lower rated players who might struggle potentially one more shot at it. In the case of Highbridge, we're planning up to three tee shots then drop for all divisions. But there are two tees and some divisions will be starting from the White rather than Gold tee so it should work well from both.

Some players will be pressed to have three discs in their bag appropriate for a tee shot. Making them carry four would also be an additional burden. Or maybe that should be the challenge for players to be forced to use a disc they are less comfortable with if it gets to the fourth shot?

Having elevated baskets that require getting the nose of the disc up makes putting, particularly when it's windy and there are drop-off's, more interesting. I'd like to see the standard basket have the bottom of the cage be about five feet off the ground. Having mounds that are even a bit higher (5-10ft.) will create the additional score variance due to putting that many of us would like to see. The game will be a lot more dynamic when picking a drive or approach route will require considering which side of the basket will afford the best chance at birdie and/or the most risk of bogey. I believe our game will have taken a huge step forward when budgeting in money for moving dirt to create real greens is the norm. Just another reason for designers to use their budgets to fully create 18 great holes instead of 24-27 good holes.



I don't like the idea of all basket heights at 5 ft. because it will pretty much kill the approach game. No one is going to make runs at the chains from 100 feet or more out because after the miss, the return putt would be all the more difficult. Even standards putts from 30 feet and in that miss on 5 ft. high baskets would end up with comebackers almost as far away. This would be akin in ball golf to all putts from 10 feet either going in, or ending up at least 10 feet out again. And that's just not right.

If anything, I wish baskets were lower so that people could be more aggressive from longer distances, one of the most exciting parts of our sport. You'd also have the chance for more skip shots holing out, and holing out rollers in places that receive significant snow in winter. :cool:

Rhett, I didn't ignore you before. I don't disagree with version 2005 as matching BG, just that duplicating BG design ideas in this case doesn't work as well since our putting is much easier. If our putting challenge was like BG, then you wouldn't have the 2/4 donut hole in scoring like you see on #17. On BG island holes, 3 is still the most common score since relatively few miss the island OB and relatively few get the birdie 2 even when landing on the green.


Actually, I said nothing about ball golf. :)

I think the 2005 version of USDGC Hole #17 was excellent, and it doesn't bother me at all that 3s are rare. Actually, odd scores are rare. Most common are going to be 2/4/6 and then probably 3. I think it is okay. It's not a super tough shot to put it inside the hay bales, but the water behind and OB in front, and the fact that you are trying to bring home a decent score with just two friggin' holes left, all make for great drama.

Going to the short tee after landing OB is really good IMHO, as it's get's rid of anyone having to take something ridiculous like a 17 on the 2nd to last hole, which I think is "not okay" in course design.

Like I said, having a drop zone and saying "you must go OB from the tee 2 or 3 times before you can move to the DZ" is just too gimmicky for my tastes. Having 2 or 3 DZ would be better if you want to punish the players but don't want anyone to take 17s. Make the 1st DZ a little easier, the next quite a bit easier, and the 3rd an 80 footer. Nobody that gets to the 3rd DZ and is throwing 8 has "gotten over on the course" by ending up with the 80-footer, they earned it.

If anything, I wish baskets were lower so that people could be more aggressive from longer distances, one of the most exciting parts of our sport. You'd also have the chance for more skip shots holing out, and holing out rollers in places that receive significant snow in winter.



We could take that a step further and make sure every basket has a back-stop 10 ft. behind it so that every putt could be run hard without any concern at all about three-putting.

The threat of the three-putt provides much of the drama in ball golf on TV. When an aggressive 20 footer to win lips out and rolls 5 feet away, everyone feels the the player's dread of that come-backer to force the play-off.

Par 4's and 5's have finally been accepted by the masses in disc golf and are being incorporated into more and more new course designs. To complete our break-away from the deuce-or-die mentality we need to make the three-putt a much more common threat.

Actually, I said nothing about ball golf. I think the 2005 version of USDGC Hole #17 was excellent, and it doesn't bother me at all that 3s are rare.



I know you didn't say ball golf but the 2005 version was at least one year where hole 17 was played like conventional ball golf, and I explained why that's not necessarily the ideal format for DG, primarily because of the putting differences. Regardless what method you use to set par, whatever it is, it should probably be the most common score if the hole is played properly, although the rounded average score doesn't necessarily need to be the same.

Regardless what method you use to set par, whatever it is, it should probably be the most common score if the hole is played properly, although the rounded average score doesn't necessarily need to be the same.




I agree that, given a defined sample pool, par for that group is the mode. Chuck, can I interpret your statement to mean that it's OK to have a par 4 that averages 4.6?

Yes, especially when the average has been boosted by OB penalties. Even then, we've talked about how holes averaging in the X.33 to X.67 range could have par set higher or lower based on the what the designer feels is appropriate in terms of wanting a tough par X or an easy par Y at that point in the course.

sweeeet! looking back on a hole's tournament performance sometimes calls for making minor adjustments to get it out of the "tweaner" range and sometimes calls for leaving it the way it is, but being sure to balance the hard holes (relative to par) with the easy ones, so that even par rated round is close to the player rating that the particular set of tees was designed for.

a fine example of a relatively difficult par 4 is the 18th on the blue monster for this week's pga tour stop. with no wind, that hole's a tough par 4, but when the wind whips up it could easily be considered a par 5. whatevery you call it, though, it definitely forces players to make tough decisions and serves as one of the most dramatic finishing holes in golf.

Probably would be a good idea to have a "special condition" sign next to the tee sign for the island hole so that players are on notice that the OB, re-tee, and drop zone procedures are slightly different for the hole.

That's true for just about every island green hole, few which follow ball golf's sequence.

It sounds like we need a "Best Practices" manual to standardize these type of things.

IMO:
Tee shot goes OB? Go to the DZ, shooting 3.

Simple, clean. No chance of rewriting the OB rules.

"Fun shots" are for practice. During the round, it should be more serious.

Tee shot goes OB? Go to the DZ, shooting 3.




If only our shot characteristics were like ball golf. We can borrow their concepts but need to adapt them to produce a better version for our game. That's what people have been trying with varying levels of success.

Actually, I said nothing about ball golf. I think the 2005 version of USDGC Hole #17 was excellent, and it doesn't bother me at all that 3s are rare.



I know you didn't say ball golf but the 2005 version was at least one year where hole 17 was played like conventional ball golf, and I explained why that's not necessarily the ideal format for DG, primarily because of the putting differences. Regardless what method you use to set par, whatever it is, it should probably be the most common score if the hole is played properly, although the rounded average score doesn't necessarily need to be the same.


Whatever.

I disagree completely with you on this one. I think it is fine to have a fair hole in disc golf that doesn't blindly follow the most desired ball golf scoring distribution.

That's fine. There just happen to be differences between adequate versus better design. That's why we borrow solid BG concepts, see how they work and adjust them according to our game vs BG.

I think it is fine to have a fair hole in disc golf that doesn't blindly follow the most desired ball golf scoring distribution.



I think that the right combination of distance to the polehole, size of the green, and distance from the drop zone to the polehole could likely achieve a scoring distribution similar to ball golf using our standard OB rules if we really wanted to adhere to that. But I also think that making a special condition for that island hole as Chuck is suggesting, and elsewhere when used properly, should be allowed if desired. The thought of changing our OB rules shouldn't be considered hallowed ground not to be treaded upon.

It doesn't require any rule change, just notification that special condition rule 804.01B is being used. The no-penalty drop zone (the tee) is to be used for the first two misses. On the third miss, the closer drop zone is used. It's all legit by our current rules albeit a creative way to use them.

or we could design island greens with some fat on them instead of the do-or-die variety. make the green itself such that a decent "safe" shot played for the fat of the green will make it almost all the time and leave a putt of, say, 60-80ft. as players attempt to get closer to the basket, the odds of landing safely decrease. at the extreme, if a player attempted to leave a drop-in, the odds of landing safely might fall to 30-40%.

the island green in golf that started it all, at tpc-sawgrass, is actually a pretty large green for a wedge shot. if the field all played for dead center of the green, they'd land safely over 90% of the time. as they attempt to get closer to the pin, that percentage drops

Chuck,

Interesting concept but one which "muddies the waters" (with complexities, etc.). The island greens that I've seen (so far) in disc golf have all been "circular" or "oval" with the basket at the center. To have a true island hole have "lots of 3's" (but rewards a great shot with a 2 and punishes a bad shot", I believe all you have to do is make the green in the shape of a triangle (or fat teardrop) and place the basket "in the corner". This way, if you want to deuce, you "go for it" (miss and retee). If you want to "play safe", throw into the fat section. This then poses 2 scenarios...either then lay up and drop in for a 3 or THEN "go for" it (the 2), knowing if you "blow by" you'll have an easy 4. The key here is to make the island big enough - especially the fat part of the teardrop. This concept / shape also has the "benefit" of dictating (or sort of) the shape shot into the green; i.e., if you want it RHBH-friendly, you make the "point" at 4:30 and widen it toward 10:30 (allowing all RHBH's an ace run...the high over the basket'ers have a long putt coming back, the low over the basket'ers have a deuce try), etc.

Karl

Karl, I don't disagree with the different shaped green concept. Placing the basket in the center of a circle just isn't difficult enough for putting. Shifting the pin forward, raising it and trying different green shapes all help produce a better scoring pattern. If you make the landing area of the green too large, the hole doesn't play much different from an easy par 3 which loses the intended effect of an island green. It just requires properly blending the elements available in disc golf for us to get a similar effect that island greens have in ball golf.

or we could design island greens with some fat on them instead of the do-or-die variety. make the green itself such that a decent "safe" shot played for the fat of the green will make it almost all the time and leave a putt of, say, 60-80ft. as players attempt to get closer to the basket, the odds of landing safely decrease. at the extreme, if a player attempted to leave a drop-in, the odds of landing safely might fall to 30-40%.

the island green in golf that started it all, at tpc-sawgrass, is actually a pretty large green for a wedge shot. if the field all played for dead center of the green, they'd land safely over 90% of the time. as they attempt to get closer to the pin, that percentage drops



I think Denny and Karl hit the nail out of the park. Do or die island greens are not good design, in my opinion. Well designed island greens should have a relatively easy chance for par, if you are an expert. This especially comes into play when the wind is different at different times of the day. A group with still wind, not only has an easier time of getting on the green, but also has an easier time of hitting the putt, once on. In wind, a do or die green becomes unfair in comparison. If there were a landing area that was fatter to land, but much more difficult to putt, the windy group would only lose one stroke on average instead of 2, 3, or more, as I have seen with do or die island holes. Losing one or so strokes, because of wind is normal.

I think there is certainly a place for do or die greens, as long as they are reasonably fair, and a reasonably fair drop zone prevents tin cupping it. There is something special about the anticipation and the excitement of pulling it off.

They are also great for spectating. I watched a lot of ams shoot a relatively easy island-type shot this weekend. It was fun as a spectator watching the excitement they had when the shot was safe.

Additionally, a difficult island hole seems better on a course where there are lots of other punishing OB holes; then the do or die nature is dampened by many other similar holes.

Denny, Karl, And Dave are confirming the point that island greens need to achieve the right combination of distance to the polehole, size of the green, and distance from the drop zone to the polehole.

Right now it seems like island green designers are stuck on the concept of a circle 10m in radius.

Right now it seems like island green designers are stuck on the concept of a circle 10m in radius.



One of several ways in which the popular conception that the 10m line defines a "putt" in disc golf is holding us back, design-wise.

10 meters = 5 feet in ball golf. A disc golf "island green" of radius 10 meters is the equivalent of a ball golf island green shaped like a giant catcher's mitt with a flat circle of 5 ft. radius in the middle containing the only hole location.

Denny,

I kind of agree with your disc golf = ball golf ratio of 10m = 5ft (actually I'm sticking my neck out and saying 27ft = 5.48ft), but the island "green" in bg is a "2-putt green" not a 1-putter. Therefore, the ratio would have to be dg:bg equaling ~110ft:~80ft...and that's not practical (certainly not much of a challenge for the dg'er).

Karl

Ps: I'm "going" on the basis that a 1000-rated dg'er makes a 27ft'er half the time (remember, this is ALL conditions, 1 putt per hole, and not grooving 10 putts at a time), just as a PGA touring pro (per 2005 stats) makes a 5.48ft'er half the time. Conversely, a PGA pro uses up ~1.8 putts per green and I'm guessing that a 1000-rated dg'er comes home from 110ft in a little under 2 per time.

but the island "green" in bg is a "2-putt green" not a 1-putter.


that's my point exactly. i don't know the exact putt percentage of 27 footers made by 1000 rated players. i'd guess it's a bit better than your 50% guess, but not 80%. if you take all the putts from within the haybales on winthrop #17, though, the 1000 rated player would probably average 1.1ish

Gold level players sank 87% of their putts landing within a 10m circle based on Winthrop and Highbridge data. Since one quarter of the tee shots would be expected to land within 5m (since it's 1/4 of the area), let's assume they make 100% of those. That means they sink ~82% of the 3/4 of tee shots that land between 5m and 10m. It makes me think that the 50% mark for 1000-rated average putting might be outside 10m.

Right now it seems like island green designers are stuck on the concept of a circle 10m in radius.

that completely depends on which designers you hang with. not all of us are so staid (http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/keohana2/island_green_web/pages/DSC00867.html). this island isnt even on a par 3.

Not all of us have bulldozers at our disposal ..... :cool:

are they using shovels instead?

hey Karl - your 110' number is remarkably similar to the 120' number used by advocates of Close Range Par (i think thats the correct moniker). this approach solves most every known problem that disc golf has related to par and greens.

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/keohana2/island_green_web/images/DSC00867.jpg

I like that this island green isn't the standard 10m radius circle, but the polehole seems to be at widest and safest portion of the green with even a backstop to catch shots. The perfect location would be to have the polehole almost dead center in the picture which would put it closer to the peninsula and make for some dramatic risk/reward. Golfers would then be fored to choose whether to risk landing near the polehole, or throwing to safer landing zone, kind of where the polehole is now.

The perfect location would be to have the polehole almost dead center in the picture which would put it closer to the peninsula


That'd be a good one or on the raised mound to the right of the basket with the drop-off to water behind. (depends on how fish-able to water is, i'm not really a fan of bringing the possibility of lost putter into play.)

Pat, please remind us, what are the dimensions of that island.

This isn't an island green in the same way we've been discussing since it's at the end of a par 4/5? hole where the fairway is in play all the way up to the water crossing. The challenge has more to do with placing your shots prior to the water and knowing when your shot to cross the water is in range.

i dont have the exact dimensions handy. the approach is from the left of the pic. (the foot bridge is perpindicular to the fairway.) if you are at waters edge in front of the pin, its no more than 30' left-to-right you have 40-50 feet.

the back is sloped up like that for two reasons. first, it hides the basket from the road (a design requirement of the owner). second, it provides a stop for discs that come in high or hot. a flat green would result in skips into the water. the burm actually makes things easier cuz it prevents skip-aways that would cost a stroke. there is far more latitude left-right, but you really need to get the distance correct.

i think i'm going out in the next coupla weeks... i'll get specific measurements and some new pics... it is starting to look nice and green there.

Is the water at your expected design height in the photo or will it vary much seasonally?

a pumping system can raise and lower the water height at will. the pic shows it a few inches below "full".

jeff, the pic doesnt show it well, but its a kidney shape. the green is no deeper in the middle than on the left or right. from the approach it is 3-4 times wider than it is deep.

a pumping system can raise and lower the water height at will. the pic shows it a few inches below "full".

jeff, the pic doesnt show it well, but its a kidney shape. the green is no deeper in the middle than on the left or right. from the approach it is 3-4 times wider than it is deep.



But if you move the polehole closer to the front of the green, you bring the water into play more and make for the dramatic risk/reward choice. If the polehole is at the front, I can either chose to risk the water but put my shot close for the tap-in, or safely land back where the current polehole is now, but have a much longer putt to hole out. Or even lay-up from the back of the green if I must.

Seems to me that the polehole is at the center of the green and the absolute easiest spot on the island to hit, which kind of takes all the excitement out of it.

a pumping system can raise and lower the water height at will. the pic shows it a few inches below "full".

jeff, the pic doesnt show it well, but its a kidney shape. the green is no deeper in the middle than on the left or right. from the approach it is 3-4 times wider than it is deep.



But if you move the polehole closer to the front of the green, you bring the water into play more and make for the dramatic risk/reward choice. If the polehole is at the front, I can either chose to risk the water but put my shot close for the tap-in, or safely land back where the current polehole is now, but have a much longer putt to hole out. Or even lay-up from the back of the green if I must.

Seems to me that the polehole is at the center of the green and the absolute easiest spot on the island to hit, which kind of takes all the excitement out of it.



What you forget Jeff, is that this hole doesn't exist. The whole course is really a stage set in Hollywood. :)

pictures can be decieving :) on this shot you are begging to get the D correct. if you are more than 200' the pucker factor is significant. i'm not opposed to moving the basket forward (or left or right for that matter). there is plenty of excitement on this hole no matter where the pin is. perhaps a wee bit too much even.

ooops, i just looked at that pic again... that water is a good foot or so low. when full it covers most of the rock retaining wall in front, and the slopes on the side... just under the footbridge.

pictures can be decieving :) on this shot you are begging to get the D correct. if you are more than 200' the pucker factor is significant. i'm not opposed to moving the basket forward (or left or right for that matter). there is plenty of excitement on this hole no matter where the pin is. perhaps a wee bit too much even.



So basically, it sounds like the challenge to begin with is just hitting the island in the first place? Wow.

pictures can be decieving :) on this shot you are begging to get the D correct. if you are more than 200' the pucker factor is significant. i'm not opposed to moving the basket forward (or left or right for that matter). there is plenty of excitement on this hole no matter where the pin is. perhaps a wee bit too much even.



So basically, it sounds like the challenge to begin with is just hitting the island in the first place? Wow.



No not really. Having played the hole i can say that if you BOOOOOM a drive, BOOOOM another drive, and all goes perfect on your 1st and 2nd shot then you are faced with a 400-450' downhill shot onto the island. Most people would lay up, but a few may go for it.

The 2 times i have played it, i messed up either my 1st or 2nd shot, and by the time you are shooting for the island on your 4th shot, it's a much more managable 150-250' shot. Then a one putt for a 5 on the hole.

Two tries for me, 2 5's for me. VERY HAPPY with that.

Imaginary 5's on an imaginary hole ...

Lay off the crack pipe! :D

Yep. That picture looks photoshopped to me. :p Just tell all of my discs laying at the bottom of the LAKE ON LEFT holes that the course is imaginary. ;)

The 2 times i have played it, i messed up either my 1st or 2nd shot

does the course punish errant shots?

as far as LAKE ON LEFT, now i know its imaginary. only 1 and 17 are really that way. (i know i know, you're gonna ask about 2 and 18... but on those the lake on left/behind/far-right of basket is far more of a pucker.)

Does it punish errant shots? There's no need for me to even comment on that inane question. :D

Yes there is a pucker factor on the island, but it's not too hard to hit the center of it from 150-200'. The real pucker hole for me is the one in your avatar. My best of 2 tries is a TRIPLE bogey! The tee shot makes me pucker, the narrow landing zone makes me pucker, the "what is supposed to be your 2nd shot" makes me pucker (although it's always been my 3rd shot b/c of a wet disc) :DIt's (your avatar hole) a par 4 right? Which should be 3'd if you throw 2 above average shots.

The thing i've noticed with the imaginary course is you have to link 2, 3, and sometimes even 4 ABOVE AVERAGE to PERFECT shots CONSECUTIVELY to score well.

sounds like fun... A course that rewards good golf shots ... Now I know for sure this place does not exist.
Nobody designs a course like that /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

aw shucks, just think of the landing zone as a must-get duece and you'll be fine.

LL, i imagine it as more like a punishing links style hole/course. it may be too purist to appeal to the tastes of the par-2 crowd though.

aw shucks, just think of the landing zone as a must-get duece and you'll be fine.



Yea....do you remember the wind coming off of the lake the last time i was there. 20-25mph left to right cross wind. Throw something stable (RHBH) without committing or getting the nose up....it's wet. Throw something understable, turn it too much watch it hit the center of the LZ and then watch roll...then bounce into the wetness. Good stuff. I always welcome a challenge.

Speaking of virtual courses, I wonder who will be the first to design and open a pay for play DG course in the Second Life world? Maybe Houck's new venture if Wimberly gets sold? Easier for course maintenance.

is wimberly for sale?

is wimberly for sale?


d'oh, i hope not!

also, the hole being discussed sounds like a par 6 to me. it's not the first, though, with that old "quarter mile" hole at winthrop and chuck's new "quarter mile and then some" hole at highbridge.

John posted that things are being reassessed there on the Am Doubles thread. Not sure if the Wimberley sale is just being thought about or planned for sure.

also, the hole being discussed sounds like a par 6 to me. it's not the first, though, with that old "quarter mile" hole at winthrop and chuck's new "quarter mile and then some" hole at highbridge.



Don't know about Chuck's hole :eek:, but i've played the other 2 in question. With 3 GREAT shots, you CAN be on the "green" in 3. Most will choice to be on in 4 with a chance at 5.

Could be a par 6 Pat. Which means i shot 1 stroke closer to par both times i've played Ke'Ofairytaleland :D

its par 5, if for no other reason than its my mythical place so i get to say whats par :D

all you need is a straight shot 330 feet up the old road, then bust a long gentle hyzer another 420 out into the field. from there its a wide open 390 to the pin. its not really all that complicated.

its par 5, if for no other reason than its my mythical place so i get to say whats par :D

all you need is a straight shot 330 feet up the old road, then bust a long gentle hyzer another 420 out into the field. from there its a wide open 390 to the pin. its not really all that complicated.



Oh, is that all? :)


Ke'Ohana translated means "Nothing to see here, move along, move along."

its par 5, if for no other reason than its my mythical place so i get to say whats par :D

all you need is a straight shot 330 feet up the old road, then bust a long gentle hyzer another 420 out into the field. from there its a wide open 390 to the pin. its not really all that complicated.



Shenanigans! LOL. The 330' is UPHILL through a 30' wide natural fairway. The gentle 420' hyzer can be problematic b/c of the blindness that the rolling terrain creates, plus there's a few trees you want to stay right of. The wide open 390' shot to the crescent ISLAND green isn't even an option in my book... Sure i have the D and most likely the accuracy, but when faced with it..it'll make you pucker up so much that you taste it. Lay up, pitch across, 1 putt = 5. :D

all you need is a straight shot 330 feet up the old road, then bust a long gentle hyzer another 420 out into the field. from there its a wide open 390 to the pin. its not really all that complicated.



Sounds Dreamy.....

http://www.ananova.com/images/web/82586.jpg

happy bday LL.

I see your basket, Island honey so sweet
In the field where the front nine turns up the heat
She�s a big green, she�s plenty wide but tight
Turning pars into doubles; day into night

Island green
How to reach you when I�m in between
Island green
Designer makes you hit the island clean
He want to make you nail a perfect toss
He says bogey and your round is lost
Island green, Island green, Island green
Tell me how to reach you when I�m in between

She�s full of curves and she wet at the edge
And she makes you want to nail her with a well-placed wedge
You feel her par wreck your round with one mistake
There�s one disc gone, and still four holes to go at the lake

I see your basket, Island honey so sweet
In the field where the front nine turns up the heat
She�s a big green, she�s plenty wide but tight
Turning pars into doubles; day into night

Island green
How to reach you when I�m in between
Island green
Designer makes you hit the island clean
He want to make you nail a perfect toss
He says bogey and your round is lost
Island green, Island green, Island green
Tell me how to reach you when I�m in between

She�s full of curves and she wet at the edge
And she makes you want to nail her with a well-placed wedge
You feel her par wreck your round with one mistake
There�s one disc gone, and still four holes to go at the lake



Bravo!! Encore!!!

It could only have been better if it were a "scrolling marquee." :D

It's so good I give it a par 6! :D

Here are some pics of the new island green at ThE LoDgE in Pawhuska that I am building...we still haven't put the finishing touches on the green yet but you can see its progress


http://a318.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/100/l_bb0d90e658b037a0733918f51d19759d.jpg
The NEW bridge to get to the island


http://a179.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/105/l_16d6bf2d2b424c9adcf4281fa3f21e8a.jpg
View from the Island


http://a417.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/71/l_11e84152a15575cb114f840e04153fa8.jpg
View from the BLUE tee


http://a265.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/65/l_23bc28f4d8e5ab513d27d3fe39d5d770.jpg
The Drop Zone will be from the red tee if you miss.

nice! a very makeable throw for all skills levels into a tight little island green... very tasty, Kev!

just wait until this place has grass all over it. Gonna be a phenomenal course....of course I may be a little bias :D

5 years from now when the ball golf course inner mingles with it, could be one of the finest ALL GOLF facilities in the world. Already has a real nice driving range. ;)

Is this course still going to be used for the Twisted Flyer Open? it doesnt look like I am going to be able to make it for the TFO but it looks very worthy of making the drive to Tulsa a day early before the OO.Nice looking course BTW.

yes this course will be used in the TFO.....still some areas where the grass hasn't completely grown in yet but it's getting in better shape every time I'm there.

The owner has 4 guys working on it every day, so it should be in great shape by the TFO

Here are some pics of the new island green at ThE LoDgE in Pawhuska that I am building...we still haven't put the finishing touches on the green yet but you can see its progress


http://a318.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/100/l_bb0d90e658b037a0733918f51d19759d.jpg
The NEW bridge to get to the island


http://a179.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/105/l_16d6bf2d2b424c9adcf4281fa3f21e8a.jpg
View from the Island


http://a417.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/71/l_11e84152a15575cb114f840e04153fa8.jpg
View from the BLUE tee


http://a265.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/65/l_23bc28f4d8e5ab513d27d3fe39d5d770.jpg
The Drop Zone will be from the red tee if you miss.



Looks very nice Kevy! Can you say thumber?

Looks ke'Ohana-esque minus the waterfalls.:DAlthough if i remember correctly from my 2 visits, you're on your 3rd or 4th shot at ke'Ohana throwing to the island. Yikes!

There are trees on the white tee that takes the thumber out of the picture.....I hate the thumber shot so i try all I can to eliminate that shot....no waterfalls yet but he has created some real cool small ponds that are natural spring fed that will be very picturesque. ;)

Can't wait until everyone gets to experience it.

you ans stan...always hating the thumber....

Funny thing is Kev has a great thumber and the thumber is not a great shot for Island greens since once it hits the ground you have no control of where it goes!!! I would say SPIKE HYZER or just a nice straight putter shot!!!

Kev is the grass on the island going to be pretty long so that when you hit the island it shouldnt get a crazy wild skip???

We have been contemplating adding bushes. There is so much limestone at the place that we may build a rock wall around the back side of the island that will keep discs safe that land on the island.

With the tee elevated as much as it is, it is going to be hard to throw a disc in a way to get an angle in which the disc will skip too far. The front of the island is level with the water and the back of the island is elevated to make it less fluky. But you can skip a disc off the water onto the island. The best shot I have found so far is a spike. The water is VERY shallow around the island just in case you miss, your more than likely going to get your disc back.

Even if you miss the island, the drop zone is only 80ft so it's gonna be almost impossible to make worse than a 5 on the hole.

I know it still looks a little rough but it will be very TPC at Sawgrass like when we are done with it. ;)

Can't wait until everyone gets to experience it.



Awesome to read that Everyone can experience it. That's one bad thing about ke'Ohana.....it's extremely private.

Funny thing is Kev has a great thumber



Preaching to the choir again Pimp.J/K I've competed/golfed with Kev since 1997. In my mind Kev was the best player region 11 had. What, you don't know what/where region 11 is? Showing my age again. J/K. LOL.

As i struggled through the Pecan Grove courses at the Friz year after year i always was a little jealous of Kevy and his magic thumber skip shots! :D

hey kev, ya need a rock?

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/dreamland/rock.jpg

Kevin -

A video tour of this place seems like a good idea. What are your thoughts?

Joe

a video tour is a great idea.....probably gonna make that happen whenever we can get the grass to grow.....we have monster industrial sprinklers trying to get at least a thin layer of grass on all the holes by the TFO sept 1-2

thanks john for the kind words about region 11......region 11 had to be the biggest region there was in land mass.....it was always a goal of mine to be the mexican champ :-D :D

Nice rock Pat, but this is my new fav pic


here's a pretty fairway
http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/dreamland/hole6fairway.jpg



Maybe one day Ryne McCoy, Ryan My_Hero and Samantha My_Hero will get to play on courses like ke'Ohana and the course Kevin is working on. Fingers Crossed.

what about Wan Ji Cha??? :(

what about Wan Ji Cha??? :(



Are you and your better half expecting? :D

yes - expecting my friends to know the name of my 4 year old :)

I'm just a dumb, ignorant American by birth and Southern by the grace of God peon. :DYou could have just used her other real name. :D

i would have but i am afraid someone might think that because she exists she is public property

i would have but i am afraid someone might think that because she exists she is public property



Now thats funny :D

:)

i hope you will find these before and after shots just as amusing :D

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/dreamland/hole6/10-10-10-02-1-10Gc.jpg
http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/dreamland/hole6/hole6fairwayc.jpg

(the top one is the before)

:)

i hope you will find these before and after shots just as amusing :D

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/dreamland/hole6/10-10-10-02-1-10Gc.jpg
http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/dreamland/hole6/hole6fairwayc.jpg

(the top one is the before)



Before and after images like that are bad for the sport. :D

Outstanding!

Looking at the various photos, the posts I have read and from what My_Hero has told me, this course has sky-rocketed toward the top of my "wish list".... and I don't even know where it is...

Only the Shadow knows :cool:

Outstanding!

Looking at the various photos, the posts I have read and from what My_Hero has told me, this course has sky-rocketed toward the top of my "wish list".... and I don't even know where it is...



I heard it is in texas. I live in texas. What do i have to do or how much do I have to donate to get to play this course?

I think I heard first born or swearing allegiance to the "Sandal" ask MyHero he had to do one or the other :D:o

It's in TX, right around the corner from everybody. :cool:

Mr. B was just using me as a data pawn. The pawn always goes home when on the chopping block. Though I did get an eagle "3" on old #8(par 5), a wicked left to right arcing narrow tunnel. Gave him good data there. I have thrown a disc in the water every time on old hole #4(woods right, narrow landing area, lake on left the entire way), never parring it and giving him bad data like double circle 7's on the par 4.

I think I heard first born or swearing allegiance to the "Sandal" ask MyHero he had to do one or the other :D:o



Now that's funny!

The only way you will make it out there is if you are rated
1000+ of sub 875

Not true. Pepper and ClaydoggyDog have visited the enchanted grounds. Their ratings fall somewhere between 875 and 1000. :D

The BASKETS ARE IN!!!!! Here is pics of 17 and 18's greens, The Island and The Bunker


http://a783.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/107/l_403e62ee8712bb7788b250a690a17716.jpg

http://a472.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/91/l_5e5a280735ce940ea7237f583470c1a7.jpg

http://a336.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/127/l_9d1d03eb1e339ae5ecf6202307aa701f.jpg

The grass is coming in nicely, all we need now is for you to come play the Twisted Flyer Open Sept 1-2

Wow. That is awesome. I was just walking through some sand the other day and thought "What if someone put in a giant sand bunker? I bet not being able to get good footing in that stuff would make it a veritable hazard." Excellent-looking course!

Wow. That is awesome. I was just walking through some sand the other day and thought "What if someone put in a giant sand bunker? I bet not being able to get good footing in that stuff would make it a veritable hazard." Excellent-looking course!



exactly, I was in there today trying to do a jump putt because the basket is a good 15 feet above your head, and about 45 feet away. Each time the footing gave way as I was trying to jump.

Got to learn the overhead upside down putt from those positions just like I showed Val how to do on the dreaded elevated triple tree basket at Worlds.

That looks great, Kevin. ( BTW congrats on the new McCoy )
I have got to make it up there as soon as possible to see that one. Is the water shallow enough to get your disc back? I'm sure I'll be finding out sooner or too later. :D

wow thats an incredible final two kevin! very nice.

Video of some of the holes at the LODGE including the ISLAND HOLE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=D7UsbRoaAyE)

Kmack couldn't stick the island?!? :o

It was pretty funny, after that he went to the drop zone and only cleared it by a few inches. :D

At least now I can use the video to locate my wizzard. :o

Can you actually throw short somewhere to lay up, like near the drop zone, in case it's really windy and you want to try for a safer three?

You can lay up to the drop zone

but even a short arm like me can reach it from the blues with my putter. I just shanked it a little right on the drive.

Its not as far as it looks in the video, just a straight downhill shot.

IT's a short drive. I barely threw my putter and it cleared the green.

That may be true for blue and gold players. But sometimes lower divisions will be playing those tees and I just wanted to know there was a lay-up play. I've also played in conditions not uncommon to Oklahoma where the winds were wicked on some days and a lay-up might look good even for blue and gold players.

There is plenty of room to lay up short of the water...One of our local am ladies has stuck the green with no problem...185 ft down hill, makes it play about 120.

That's excellent. I realize that 99.9% of the time, players will want to go for it. But you guys have those windy days when some might think twice about it...

Lower divisions know about laying up? I thought that was for advanced. :D

Wow. That is awesome. I was just walking through some sand the other day and thought "What if someone put in a giant sand bunker? I bet not being able to get good footing in that stuff would make it a veritable hazard." Excellent-looking course!



exactly, I was in there today trying to do a jump putt because the basket is a good 15 feet above your head, and about 45 feet away. Each time the footing gave way as I was trying to jump.


I need to make it down to this course. A couple of Oklahoma kids, Daren Miller and Justin Smith, made it up to Toledo, Ohio for some rounds this weekend and they could say nothing but awesome things about this course! Congratulations on creating something that is spreading via word of mouth all over the US!

I just read the first post on this thread.

I like the idea of a layup zone where a 3 would still be a challenge, but a lot easier to get a 4.

Regarding the no penalty for missing the drive, here is my idea. Give the player the choice of throwing again off the tee for their 2nd shot or taking it to the drop zone for throwing the 3rd shot.

What I'd really like to see is some kind of par 4 hole with multiple islands. If there were several ways to play this kind of hole, it would be pretty cool.

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/dreamland/hole9/islandgreen.jpg

(referring to the above image)
Now Pat. You're only teasing the very few that have played it. The rest of the community has no idea that the rest of the place is on the same level. :eek: :D

Why do you keep doing this to us Pat?

Why? :D

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/dreamland/hole9/islandgreen.jpg



Where is this and how can I play it?

Are there concrete tee pads on this course?

max, its in texas. for better or worse, it is a guy's back yard, his private resort/residence. its friends/invitees only, as are most backyards. there's security everywhere, including cameras both hidden and obvious, and T1 level bandwidth to security operators in dallas and more local. its not entirely playable at the moment anyway. there's three buildings under construction, two more that are being finished, so its a heavy construction zone. we only have one half of three fairways/greens done, one fairway/green completed, and 3/4s of another done. no teepads are formally complete. its prolly 2 more years til its wrapped up.

snarf, no, absolutely no concrete anywhere. we considered it but only briefly. we looked at four different levels of artificial surfaces, installing two type before rejecting them all. we also looked at several different other surface types before deciding on 100% natural turf.

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/dreamland/hole9/islandgreen.jpg




(referring to the above image)
Now Pat. You're only teasing the very few that have played it. The rest of the community has no idea that the rest of the place is on the same level. :eek: :D




Why do you keep doing this to us Pat?

Why? :D






Where is this and how can I play it?




Are there concrete tee pads on this course?




Right now it's a fairy tale course (meaning EXTREMELY PRIVATE) located somewhere in NeverNeverLand, Texas. The last 2 times i was there the island was just dirt, not even a blade of grass, and there were no concrete tee pads. I wouldn't expect to see concrete tees either, they don't look natural enough for the resort area. ;) If i ever get the chance to play it again i think the waterfalls will be my favorite obstacles to view.

http://www.animationplayhouse.com/rasp1.gif

Will this one day be pay-to-play? Or will it always be completely invite/friends only?

^^^^
Another one bites the dust. :D
http://www.kidssundayschool.com/Gradeschool/Stories/Images/Dont%20get%20hooked.jpg

Pat, Is it possible to give us a hint about how much is being spent on the Disc Golf portion of this project? You know, in case Boone Pickens comes and asks how much it would cost to do something similar at his ranch here in the Panhandle, which is a fabulous piece of property on the Canadian River.

I said it more than a year ago, aesthetically it's the best course in the universe. (.....and it wasn't even landscaped then)

a cost estimate is tough, for a variety of reasons. lemme think about that for a coupla days.

cjwojputtttttj, always private. def NOT for pay for play. unfortunately, its not me who gets to issue invites at this point.

It's going to take you a few days just to figure out how many zeroes and commas were needed to build that island let alone stonehenge, the waterfalls, the other ponds, the landscaping, the generators, the water feature pumps, irrigation, or the rest of the "attractions" not listed. :cool:

a lot of those dont really have anything to do with the golf course tho.

By the way, Pat, I am still rated 885. :D

:)

enjoy the pic now. it goes away in the morning. palm trees are out to get less "vegas". we'll go more native and beef up the other stuff.

By the way, Pat, I am still rated 885. :D



<font color="red"> Now that was funny. </font>


:)

enjoy the pic now. it goes away in the morning. palm trees are out to get less "vegas". we'll go more native and beef up the other stuff.



<font color="green"> ehhhh....just relocate or throw away a few thousand dollars in palm trees. </font> ;)

they'll find a home, i'm sure.

I know I am on probation but http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachments/month_0603/wtf_cat.jpg.w300h371_HeOTTJstzM5Z.jpg I am blown away /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I'm sure T. Boone Pickens doesn't care if there are more commas and zeroes than what's posted on most gas store signs these days. ;) It's my understanding that the latest project at the "Ranch" included lengthening his airplane runway to make it easier for larger jets (think Air Force 1) to land and take off in seclusion, instead of using the Perry LeFors Airport in Pampa. Sattelite pictures show the "Ranch" and a lot of it's features (just type in "Pampa, TX" and scroll North along Highway 70 until right before you get to the Canadian River, then look for the roads heading West. You can easily see the runway, several lakes/ponds, many trees, and most of the ranch buildings).

Maybe we can convince him to build Disc Golf courses instead of his proposed pipeline to pump Panhandle water to you guys in the DFW area.

So this course is being built by T. Boone Pickens or one of his children or something?

No, it's just on the "Wish List". Most Texas Panhnadle residents wish TBP would get involved in positive projects for our area like he used to do when Mesa Petroleum was based here in Amarillo. Building a pipeline to send Panhandle water down South doesn't seem very positive to this area. Maybe he will drill a well under the new TBP athletic facility at OSU in Stillwater, OK and send it South. ;)

Ah, I assumed from the fact that he was mentioned there that it was his (or one of his children's) course.

these images are up for a day or so. this green is just about finished, and is settling in quite nicely. the palms stayed after all. enjoy...



http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/hole9/9_closeb.JPG


http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/hole9/9_closeup.JPG


http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/hole9/9_sideview.JPG


http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/hole9/9_viewb.JPG


http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/hole9/9_viewa.JPG

Holy Frijoles! That's what an Island green is supposed to look like! Please tell me the rest of the place looks the same. Wow!

You're torturing me here! God that is BEAUTIFUL.

Must see more pics....PLEASE!!

Can't believe I missed sandalman course pics...NOOOO!

repost? :D

It sounds like we need a "Best Practices" manual to standardize these type of things.

IMO:
Tee shot goes OB? Go to the DZ, shooting 3.

Simple, clean. No chance of rewriting the OB rules.

"Fun shots" are for practice. During the round, it should be more serious.



I couldn't agree more. The course that I designed has a basket situated on an actual island. The length of the hole is only 262 ft, but the island is only about 60 ft deep. When a player is OB short of the island, they retee with one throw penalty from the shorter tees (160 ft). The fun aspect is in the initial tee shot, but the round should not be defined by one hole. Take another hole that has an OB that is lateral to the hole. If you continually throw OB, it is because you have not adjusted your throws. Yet in that case, you continually advance towards the hole. You are punished for not making the correct shot each time. That is not usually the case in the island green holes. Your punishment is for not making the same shot, over and over. I think that you should take the drop and move up. If you have issues beyond that, make adjustments to size of the island (can't in our case), location of the drop zone, or pin placement. #17 at USDGC should play significantly different with the pin closer to the waters edge than closer to the forward OB.

http://www.ldga.org/17.html

Just a little bit of home.

http://www.ldga.org/images/17g.JPG
http://www.ldga.org/images/17w.JPG

I agree that island shots look cool and are fun but; how cool is it to lose discs in a pond or lake. It can be a very expensive hole it 3 out of 4 people on the card throw into the water. My family and I just played Emerald Isle in Oceanside CA and both kids and the wife threw into the pond. I talked to a local who said that pond didn't have water in it last week.

get the Quest discs that float. they fly every bit as good as any other discs, and some of them especially the ultralights are extra-perfect for young'ns and rec women.

....keeping in mind that floating discs tend to bob around in the middle of the lake, smirking at you. Unless you've got a boat, it can be a long wait until you get them back. Of course, it comes in handy that on windy days they get to the shore much quicker---and it's those windy days that you're more likely to put them in the lake in the first place.

Solution for island holes: Get a retrieving dog (we'll loan you ours) with a soft mouth and an endless appetite for swimming. We play at lot at Trophy Lakes in Charleston SC ... yes, there's a lot of water on the course. We taught Cleo the dog to retrieve from the water a few years ago when our sons were learning how to play. They threw Dragons in, she went and got them out. They threw Dragons back in, she went and got them out again. Cleo thinks this wonderful game is about the most fun a dog can have!

Whenever we take her to Trophy, she retrieves something for someone ... there's no counting the number of discs shes gotten back for perfect strangers as well as family and club members.

Only problem is, she knows where all the "likely retrieving spots" are on the course, and she whines and begs and barks when we get to those holes so that we'll throw something in and she can go do her appointed job. On balance, however, she sure saved us a lot of money when the kids were a little bit younger and threw a little more wildly! Maybe even enough to cover her food bills...

David, we'll have to bring her to Stony Hill once you've got the pond in. When you have events there, you can just station her at the pond holes and let her retrieve during the rounds!

I've got a better deal. I'll jump in the pond if the dog will pull discs out of the briars!

get the Quest discs that float. they fly every bit as good as any other discs, and some of them especially the ultralights are extra-perfect for young'ns and rec women.



The only difference between a floating disc and one that goes to the bottom is that you can see the floater.

At my home course we have a hole that is relatively boring-straight 310 ft from the pro teepad that plays across a small valley. This hole is easy, with no trees and very little to think about. However recently at our last tournament we 'island' the green off with electrical flags and rope, thereby creating an island for players to think about. It worked out so well that we are going to make the island permenant by digging a foot wide trench around the basket that is approx. 1 ft. deep with a 100ft (approx.) diameter. The ditch will be filled by nearby mulch and will give players the option to playing an island green.

Consider reading the article on the evolution of hole 17 at the USDGC and reconsider the dynamics of your hole if you're planning an "all or none" type hole versus having an optional lay-up area which works better, especially for a hole that long.

For a longer island hole I like the idea of an island that is relatively narrow horizontally but very deep, say a 280 foot hole with a 50 foot wide island that begins about 80-100 feet short of the pin and extends 20 past the pin. A course up in Michigan, Independence Lake, has an island similar to that. Plays very nicely.

We have a very short course in my home town. We are trying to do some things to make the course unique and a little tougher.


We have already made a USDGC type elevated basket.

My idea I had today was this. Make an "Island type" green. Similar to the bamboo hole at USDGC. The fence would be much smaller and much lower. It may be made out of normal chain link type fence. Then plant some kind of plantlife that would grow and overtake the fence.

Are there any of these type greens out there. I would like to see a picture of it if you have one.

I have had luck with abelia. It hedges well and is somewhat resilient. It is a little brittle for this application though.

I'm in the early stages of design for my "Oasis at Warwick" course.

I am planning on having a few "island greens" in between some semi-marshy areas where I can control the location of the green and the tees, as well as the shape of the green and drop zones.

i've got plenty of ideas and have played plenty of courses with island greens over the years, so I'm not a novice.

but i would be curious to know if there are "formulas" or ratios whereby the size/shape of a green corresponds with the distance from the tee.

E.G. our first hole (Pro Tee) will probably play 275 feet to the pin. i want to locate the pin in the front left corner of the island, with the depth of the green being deeper as one goes further away (to the right) from the pin. for a 275-foot carry to an island green, what sort of perimeter dimensions make sense? im thinking the green will be 75 feet wide; 50 feet deep on the left (pin) side of the green and 75 feet deep on the right side.

thoughts?

That seems plenty big for me.

Can you go out in a field and stake out a green that size, get a bunch of golfers, and figure it out?

Try it out in a field. My guess is you'll need a much bigger island.

According to my throw simulator, for a circular island with the target in the center and the front lip 275 feet from the tee, the island needs to be 180 feet in diameter for 2/3 of advanced players to land on the island with their first throw. (This places the target at 365 feet from the tee, 90 feet in from the front of the island.) That's about 25,000 square feet, where your proposed island is only about 5,000.

Now, if the distance to the target is 275 feet, you can get by with a 140 foot diameter - or 15,000 square foot � island. (The front lip will be 205 feet from the tee.)

http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/ThrowSimulator.aspx

It's my belief (and via practical experience) that most "decent players" - who can throw 275 feet and not have to execute a full throw - will miss "left and right" by more than they will miss "short and long" (especially if the prevailing wind is l to r or r to l). Thus if your goal is to have a "fair" but minimal-sized green, make it wider than deep (for equal dispersion of splash-downs).
This, of course, is for bh'ers and fh'ers; if considering oh'er (...and who might that be? ;) ), the opposite is true (will miss long and short probably more than left and right).

Karl

How about some real world data? Hole 16 on Highbridge Gold is a wide open 270 feet with an 8 foot net drop to a roughly circular island green around 70 ft diameter. The pin is on a 2' elevated mound located 15' from the front edge. The moat surrounding the green is about 20' wide. Only the moat is OB so players can play up short of the moat and then attempt a long putt/short approach at the pin. If players go in the moat off the tee, they next play from the white tee 185' out as the drop zone.

For Blue level 950 rating, the scoring average was 2.86 with 36% 2s, 37% 3s, 21% 4s and 5% 5s. For Gold level, it's 2.60 average.

those dimensions sound pretty close to what i have initially carved. it is 275 feet to the front of the island from the pro tee. (this is the PRO tee, not the advanced tee).

the pin is 25 feet from the left side and the front side. it is 50 feet from the back side and the right side.

the drop zone is 180 feet from the closest corner of the green to the drop zone and the approach to the green is from the side rather than from head-on like the pro tee is.

i only carved the green last weekend so there is limited playability to tweak dimensions and tee and pin locations. havent yet figured out what happens if one misses the green on the initial or subsequent drives. i.e. when does one go to the drop zone... also havent figured out yet what to do about the short tee (aka the drop zone) as a total novice cant be expected to throw 180 feet to an island green. the reason for the design of this hole is to utilize a big wet area with random dry areas (islands) that sits right at the entrance to the 47-acre property so the hole will be very visible from the main road and the 3rd hole of the warwick course across the street. its too wet to allow for a fairway between the drop zone /short tee and the green.

any thoughts on how to handle play from the short tee are welcome.

Chuck �

Wow, that's some scoring spread! Perhaps having only 1/3 of the players land on the island is OK.

Assuming all (and only) the "2's" are players who landed on the island on the first try, that is a few more than my throw simulator would come up with. Not surprising, since my throw simulator is mostly based on full-power throws, as it was designed as a tool for course safety, not to predict scores.

Dan �

From Chuck's data, and running the throw simulator, it would seem there is little difference between Pro and Advanced in hitting an island, just a few percent more Pros will make it.

As for the short tee, you could allow the player to "concede" that the first throw would have gone in the drink, and have another drop zone on the island (or perhaps on the path to the island). That way, players who don't want to waste a disc can play from the on-island drop zone for the price of a throw and a penalty.

I once played a golf hole where you drive your cart onto a boat that takes you from the men's tee to the rest of the hole. The carry over water was too far for a lot of people, so the rules let you play the women's tee+2 without wasting equipment.

Dan, I forgot to mention that hole 16 has a drop zone only 60-70 feet from the pin that's only used for those who go OB from the white tee either as their initial tee shot or heaven forbid if they first went OB from the gold tee and had to throw again from the white tee and went OB again. No one starting from the gold tee ended up going OB again from the white tee since 5 was the worst score recorded from the gold tee. So not gold tee players ended up on the shorter drop zone.

chuck / steve....

i like the idea of a 3rd drop zone halfway to the green from the short tee, therefore approx 90 feet away.

i am pondering which of the three following rules of play makes most sense for this hole:

1. If you miss the green from the pro tee you proceed to the short tee, aka the drop zone for missed shots from the pro tee. if you miss from the short tee you then advance to the weenie tee 90 feet from the green.

or

2. since it is the pro tee you keep throwing from the pro tee until you do land in bounds on the island green, no matter how many times you have to re-throw from that tee

or

3. a compromise between # 1 and #2 is that if you miss your first two attempts from the pro tee, THEN you advance to the drop zone / short tee. this would eliminate the possibility for a double digit score on Hole #1. an 18-hole round could be fugly if you score a 10 or more on your first hole.

which of these 3 scenarios makes the most sense? is there a 4th way to play the hole that makes the most sense?

Read the version I posted for hole 16 as version 4. I don't think you want to force players to land on the green from that distance for a long tee, ever. Have a layup area option similar to Winthrop 17 that doesn't allow a tee shot to land safe any closer to the pin than maybe 60 feet or so if they don't go for the island. You get a much better scoring spread with a version where players can get more 3s than any other score rather than mostly 2s & 4s which is a problem with pure "island only is safe" designs.

Another way to do it would be to use the buncr rule (no OB penalty) where the player has to throw twice from the long tee to land on the island then advance to the shorter tee and continue from there using buncr rule.

In my head, I see this as a body of water with small patches of land here and there, so a lay-up zone is not possible.

Based on that, I would prefer ratcheting drop zones. Miss from one, move up to the next shorter. That's not based on scoring spread analysis, it's just how I would like to play it.

I don't like the complication of a counter-loop-escape-box in the flow chart of how to play the hole. Throw two, then go to the next drop zone, for example. If the rules change based on the number of throws you already made, that's too complicated for me.

The penalty throw for missing the island is punishment, as is the loss of the disc underwater. Making them do it over again is more - and in my view, too much - punishment.

Also, if you play it as "go to the next tee if you miss" then all the players are basically playing the hole the same way, except that the players that start from the white tee get a little head start.

One more note, not everyone can throw accurately 90 feet. For example, if you had all the female PDGA members play, 27% would miss a 75 foot wide island on the other side of a 90 foot water carry. (Most of the misses would be left, right, or beyond.)

So, if you still have a forced 90 foot carry over water from the weenie tee, make yet another drop zone on the island.

And still give everyone the option to concede OB without pointlessly tossing a disc into the water. They can advance to whatever tee they want to play from for the appropriate amount of +2's.

i agree that different rules from different tees based on the number of misses is way too complicated.

one note: the O/B areas on this hole are not bodies of water where one loses their disc. it is a wetlands area that seasonally gets extremely mushy. but getting your footwear and feet wet and muddy on your first hole of a difficult course is not the experience i want players to have. we will have walking paths and a boardwalk system and possibly the option to concede O/B and play from the next drop zone for folks (especially casual players) that have no desire to sink ankle deep in squish.

here's my current thought:

im thinking we will have 4 "tees" (90ft, 180 ft, 270 ft, 360 ft that plays 300 ft).
they play as pro, advanced, am, rec tees as well as being drop zones. the wetlands / OB area would be defined as a bunCR, i.e. a shot from any tee / drop zone landing in the wetlands / OB area results in the player playing their next shot from the next shorter drop zone, WITH NO PENALTY stroke assessed.

i think one thing this accomplishes that i like is that it offers any player that plays from the pro tee the opportunity to nail a "memory shot" - if your tee shot from the pro tee is O/B it's a shot you'll remember when the round is over, and you'll be rewarded on the scorecard because the majority of players wont land on the green from this tee. but if you miss it, like most players will, you are not overly penalized.

if you land on the green from the pro tee and 2-putt you end up with the same score as the player that missed from the long tee, made it from the 275-foot zone and 1-putted. the player that is long and accurate and can putt gets rewarded vs the inaccurate long thrower that putts poorly. but if you have a good approach game you can salvage the hole with an accurate shot from the 275 foot drop zone.

and i suppose for the total beginner that cant throw 90 feet they could start on the far corner of the green. maybe from the 90-foot tee one incurs a penalty stroke for advancing to the green, thereby shooting their 3rd shot from the corner of the green?

and i suppose for the total beginner that cant throw 90 feet they could start on the far corner of the green. maybe from the 90-foot tee one incurs a penalty stroke for advancing to the green, thereby shooting their 3rd shot from the corner of the green?

I like it. If it were me, I wouldn't add the penalty stroke for advancing to the green from the 90-foot tee. It's a complication to the rules. It might be rare, but on really windy days some pro and advanced players will get to that 90-foot tee and miss the green, too. I'd maintain the buncr pattern.

Also, beginners don't need any more throws added to their score. Let them shoot 2nd shot from the green. They already are penalized by being put as far away as possible for missing the island.

Please keep track of the scores by rating on this hole. And, if possible, note which throw made the green. This will be vary valuable data for future hole designs.