Cam tells the BHMO TD that it was one of the worst run tournaments he'd ever attended. Someone complains to the PDGA saying Cam was out of line in voicing his complaints to the TD. Then the PDGA suspends him and tells him that he must leave the TD with a "happy and positive impression". The letter goes on to say that Cam's points were valid, but he should have handled it differently, like in a letter.

Did they get Cam's side of the story? Of course not, they just assumed he was guilty and didn't even give him a chance to defend himself. He didn't even get to see the complaints that were laid against him. All he got was a letter and a warning from a board member to be careful because there were a few guys on the board that would like to see him out of the sport. Probably the same guys that suspended him.

So the message the PDGA is sending is if you are unhappy with your TD or anyone in the PDGA, do not express yourself or you could be suspended.

Kickball,

uh-oh........for how long?

Hope your wild child is doing well. Let's get together the next time you're in DFW.

How long was this suspension for???

Obviously not very long because he played at Worlds

4 month supension, 2 years probation, effective last weekend.

So he can't play the USDGC?

It looks that way..................

Cam tells the BHMO TD that it was one of the worst run tournaments he'd ever attended.



Hey Iqbal,

Did Cam "tell" or did Cam "yell"? It seems to me that the PDGA Disciplinary Committee does not arbitrarily suspend people without proper investigation.

There are many ways to express one's feelings about an event to a TD. It seems the most appropriate way to express complaints would be in a calm and rational manner AND in a private setting to show respect for the person/people who put so much effort into the event you consider to be sub-standard.

I meet him a few times up in Wisconsin and he seems like a great guy. Why won't they explain the whole thing out? Why won't they at least explain what he said? To me that is unfair and unsportsmenlike not to be able to view both sides of the event. I hope he can appeal, good luck.

If you review the BHMO thread under the Tournament topic, the marshal in attendance there, Jay Svitko, provided a synopsis of this episode.

Ya I got that ESP thing going. huh

i just read the entire thread, and geez, 4 months suspension sounds way too harsh according to how the Marshall described. if someone cant complain to the TD, even if it is a bit load and angry, without facing a suspension in the middle of the season, then thats BS. how many F-bombs have ya seen Tiger drop on national tv. i wasnt there, but from all of the descriptions thats a very harsh sentence.

Here's Jay's report: Jay's BHMO missive (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=207104&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1) His tagline is "Tygerprez".

What I'm not clear about: Was there any problem with crowd manegement? I'm sure crowds can be a distraction, but isn't that expected? :confused:

It seems to me that the PDGA Disciplinary Committee does not arbitrarily suspend people without proper investigation.




That is the funniest thing I have heard all day! PDGA actually talking to the defending party seems rare from what has gone on down here.

But you can still threaten a fellow player and get probation and a new sponsor.

if you can't do the time then don't do the crime :(
boycott the pdga

careful buddy or you'll be the unforgiven one (for four months) :D

lmbo :D

There is an appeals process. I'm told that the Disciplinary Committee highly recommends that Cam files an appeal.


So the message the PDGA is sending is if you are unhappy with your TD or anyone in the PDGA, do not express yourself or you could be suspended.



I can't speak for the Disciplinary Committee or the PDGA, and while I wasn't in Columbus to witness the tirade, I think the message the PDGA is sending is that profanity-laced, angry outbursts in a TD's face in full view of tournament central will not be tolerated.

I cannot speak for the Board either. I can speak for the Oversight Director. I was consulted about the suspension process in my role as Oversight Director, but not the suspension itself. So far the suspension procedure has meticulously followed the 804.05(C) procedure. At this time the issue of Cam Todd's suspension has not come before the Board. If you read the rule you will see what I mean.

I think this suspension is quite harsh, and if Cam said the things he did than the must have been true. This past weekend I had the privledge of playing the MSDGC which cam attended, and while his playing wasn't as great as he thought it should be he was more then professional about it. I also sat with him and leslie during the awards ceremony in which he was more than friendly. Since the BHMO is such a high class tournament professional players of Cam's calibur have come to expect things to be done quickly, properly, and efficently. He said he had a great time at the MSDGC and seemed in a good mood despite not winning any skins and taking 4th place behind Ron Russel, Steve Brinster, and Walt "Snoop" Hanely. Also if this suspension effects the USDGC thats going to hurt Cam but the tournament which spectators expect the top players in the world. I think this suspension is a joke and the pdga needs to rethink this decision. They're only hindering themselves and the DG community.

I wasn't going to post b/c my mouth (esp on here) gets me in a lot of trouble - most people who know me realize that 99% of what I say on this board is jokes and meant for fun. In all seriousness, this post is my serious thoughts on the matter.

I know Cam - never played with him. All i know about him is what I know from seeing him at NC tournaments when he is not touring. Now, most people will say that Cam is a great guy - just not fun to play with. I've never even played a casual round with him, so I can't go that route.

My longest conversation w/ Cam came at the Mountain Disc Golf Experience this year in Asheville. It was both of our first times at the course, and neither one of us enjoyed the course. We started putting together and he asked me how I shot and I told him poorly and told him of a branch that I hit that cost me about 5 strokes that EVERYONE was not happy with. He agreed and said he had hit it as well. Well, one thing lead to another, and we talked and putted for about 30 min. about disc golf, great course and bad courses. I found that his opinion of good hole and bad holes was very similar to mine. In fact, at worlds this year, we both hated a course that many people liked. I started to really value Cam's opinion, not only b/c in most cases, it was similar to mine, but b/c he said something I will never forget about cam. He siad "A lot of people don't like me b/c I voice my opinion. My mother taught me to always voice my opinion. And, while my opinion my differ from others, I want to help disc golf grow and for everyone to love it the way I do" I figured his reasoning for voicing his opinion was b/c he was upset about not playing well and he would not make as much money, but that was the last thing on his mind.

In light of this recent suspension, I guess I have to go both ways. While I totally agree that Cam handled a very legitament gripe in the totally wrong way, I also think the PDGA handled a very legitament gripe in the totally wrong way. I understand why the PDGA chose to suspend him, but I do not agree with the time. This man has chosen disc golf as a career choice. The PDGA has now said this man cannot work for the next four months. This is not some middle of the barrell advanced weekend golfer like myself, this is a man who is trying to make a living as a professional athlete. When professional football players are suspended for drug use, they are only suspended for a few games - not 16 like Cam is (4 weekends in a month, 4 months).

Taking a man's life away for four months is a little harsh. Of course, the PDGA did suspend someone for 2 months b/c the added a score card up incorrectly.

when was this decision reached, and where is the testimony that led to this decision?

when was Cam notified of his right to appeal, and why shouldn't he be allowed to play while his suspension is on appeal?

i have searched the PDGA rules and constitution and am unable to find anything which says a player appealing a suspension should not be allowed to play.

i would advise the BOD to be very very careful in how this matter is handled; i would hate to see the PDGA have to pay a lawyer to get the PDGA out of a legal jam if Cam decides to take this to court. you are messing with the man's livelihood, on what could be construed as questionable evidence.

while it is not acceptable to yell at any TD or player, it is even more unacceptable to suspend a player without giving him a chance to present any evidence in his favor, which is exactly what seems to have occurred.

do correct me if i'm wrong.

I've met and talked a bit with Cam Todd at some tournaments and he seemed like a great guy, for whatever it's worth.

:)

Wasn't he already on probation for similar outbursts? Or had that already expired? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Was he suspended for rule #1 of 804.5?

804.05 DISQUALIFICATION & SUSPENSION
A. A player may be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.
(2) Willful and overt destruction or abuse of plant life, course hardware, or any other property considered part of the disc golf course or the park.
(3) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play.
(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol. Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct. An official warning of disqualification may be issued by a director where appropriate.

B. Disqualified players shall forfeit any prize money and shall not receive a refund of entry fees.

C. A player in violation of any section under 804.05 A is also subject to suspension from the PDGA Tour. Suspension from the PDGA Tour may only be assigned by the PDGA Commissioner. A player may appeal his or her suspension to the PDGA Board of Directors. The determination to suspend, and the length of the suspension, shall be based on the severity of the action and the extent to which the player may have committed repeated violations.

Cam tells the BHMO TD that it was one of the worst run tournaments he'd ever attended. Someone complains to the PDGA saying Cam was out of line in voicing his complaints to the TD. Then the PDGA suspends him and tells him that he must leave the TD with a "happy and positive impression". The letter goes on to say that Cam's points were valid, but he should have handled it differently, like in a letter.

Did they get Cam's side of the story? Of course not, they just assumed he was guilty and didn't even give him a chance to defend himself. He didn't even get to see the complaints that were laid against him. All he got was a letter and a warning from a board member to be careful because there were a few guys on the board that would like to see him out of the sport. Probably the same guys that suspended him.

So the message the PDGA is sending is if you are unhappy with your TD or anyone in the PDGA, do not express yourself or you could be suspended.




Iqbal,

I'm sorry, were you there? No you were not. He did not just tell Dan he thought it was a bad tournament. If Cam told you that, he straight lied to your face, and you bought it hook line and sinker. The Jerk belittled Dan in front of 2 Major sponsors, A hole slew of Volunteers, and worst of all for him in front of the NT Marshal. It was a temper tantrum like a 3 year old! Please refrain speaking about any of this crap you know nothing about! By the way I was the person who complained along with others. I spoke with the PDGA about it. You got anything to say to me like I have an agenda? Do you wish to slander me? What he did was wrong and will ALWAYS be wrong. If Tiger did what he did to a TD in public he would not be playing either. If you wish to speak to me in private PM me and I will call you on my dime! I'm still disappointed he got to play in the worlds!

The worst is:

He insulted Dan by saying and I quote �the only reason you do this tournament is to get your name on the check to the Leukemia Society� He confirmed that to me to my face after he said it to Dan.

I don�t know about you but if you were to insult me buy dragging my best friend for 20 or more years that died 7 years ago, I don�t know how I would keep myself from tearing in to you like Dan did not. Dan is a bigger man than I am.

Please tell me I am not telling the truth��

Benjamin Botte
#7968

Wow the **** fight continues.

Rhett, to answer your question...Cam was previously on probation but that period had expired prior to this incident.

If Tiger did what he did to a TD in public he would not be playing either.



Im going to go ahead and say that they might fine Tiger but they arent going to stop him from playing. Even if they did it wouldnt affect him as much as its going to affect Cam.

Touring players barely make it on tour as it is. Now your going to tell the man he cant work for 4 months because he told someone what he though??? That doesnt seem right to me. If he physically assualted the TD or something along those lines then maybe a 4 month suspension is in order but because he yelled at a TD because he thought the tournament sucked (which in my opinion is completely the opposite of how the tournament was) is kind of rediculous. Now one of the best players on tour cannot participate in the best tournament of the year because he YELLED at someone. There is something severly wrong with that.

Ive talked to Cam before and hes not a bad guy. He may have a bad temper from what i have heard (never seen it mind you and ive played more then a few tournaments he was at) but so do alot of players in this sport. Ill be the first one to admit that I MYSELF have a bad temper and a short fuse. I would hate to think that if I told a TD what i thought about a tournament that i would get suspended for 4 months. Granted i prolly would wait till everyone left to have my disscusion but its still not a fair suspension in my opinion. I think the PDGA needs to rethink this suspension.

So he can't play the USDGC?



I didn't think USDGC was sanctioned.

http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=4038

didn't think USDGC was sanctioned



The USDGC is a Major PDGA Event this year.

I didn't think USDGC was sanctioned.





The USDGC is sanctioned at the highest level, a Major! A players does not receive points for Majors, but all monies earned DO count towards a PDGA players stats.

The USDGC is sanctioned at the highest level, a Major!




Well BLAMO! :D

^^^^^ he said BLAMO! :D^^^^^

Please, spare us the arguments that

"I think he's a nice guy" or "It's food on the table for him."

Those are so lame.

However, I did find that the argument that "If Cam said those things, they must be true" to be quite persuasive. ;)

Kharma strikes again :D:o.

MtL, what you failed to mention in your heartstrings-tugging ramblings was what cam said to the newspaper after the tourney was over. this is what seperates you from the angry clown; you both agreed that there was some unfair holes, limbs, etc, however you didn't go ***** to the local newspaper about how it wasn't disc golf and blah, blah, blah therefore undermining countless hours of hard work put in by the good volunteers in the asheville area.

what you, discpunk, and others fail to realize is that there is a difference between simply voicing your opinion and being a tactless [*****]. the TDs and everyone who works at or on these courses are volunteers and should not be subjected to such uncontrolled, ill-timed berratements. also, the BHMO was not an isolated incident, there have been similiar and other incidents before (anyone remember the angry clown thread). i don't know how you can read the BHMO TD's statements and the statements by booty on this thread and not agree that a suspension is justified. these aren't people out to get cam. he should take his suspension and try and work to become more clown, less angry.

He is not on "The List" http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary_actions.php

I don't know how to feel about the fact that the PDGA Marshall for the event was "watching the known troublemakers." Sounds to me like certain people are being singled out for past transgressions.

Sounds to me like certain people are being singled out for past transgressions



Past Transgressions or "Repeated Violations"?


C. A player in violation of any section under 804.05 A is also subject to suspension from the PDGA Tour. Suspension from the PDGA Tour may only be assigned by the PDGA Commissioner. A player may appeal his or her suspension to the PDGA Board of Directors. The determination to suspend, and the length of the suspension, shall be based on the severity of the action and the extent to which the player may have committed repeated violations .

I'm beginning to be confused by the thinking that goes on behind these threads. This is, I believe, the fourth "the PDGA screwed up in disciplining this player" thread I've read this year. Every time some player got wronged horribly by the PDGA and then � schazam � the PDGA parties involved come on this site and tell you exactly what the player did and its obvious the player blew it. In every case we find that the PDGA's disciplinary committee spent hours looking at and discussing the situation before coming to their decision. I've seen this enough now to skip over the �did Cam do it or not� and go straight to the �I'd bet money the PDGA is correct.� They have my belief because every time they do their research and prep correctly and then take an action. Credibility comes with doing the job right.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

more clown, less angry


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I want this on a t-shirt

What would you find more appropriate Tafe? If ANY player were known to be prone to outbursts, pencil whipping, or any other undesirable behavior - you wouldn't find it appropriate for an official to be aware of their actions? I don't think that description fits what happened at BHMO (at least by Ben's account).

I wasn't there - can't comment on how real or egregious Cam's actions may (or may not) have been. It's disheartening to ever have to hear any of this - both from the side of the BHMO folks, who work their butts off, and from the competition side - of even having to deal with inappropriate behavior from top players.

If what has been said of this incident is true - I feel the PDGA is merely making a statement that there are certain lines that cannot be crossed (and I totally agree with that premise). I can only hope that due process is followed, and that all sides get to be heard - so that justice is served.

I really don't understand some of you people. Put yourself in the TD's position and tell me what Cam did would be OK. We are trying to become a more PROFESSIONAL sport, with Pro's that act like adults and not children. If he wants to throw temper tantrums over and over and over and over and over again then find another sport. Cam could have easily ruined sponsorship for our tournament just by his actions and you guys think this is OK?????
I think the PDGA did the right thing and on top of the suspension he should be required to run a few tournaments, just not in Columbus.

He is not on "The List" http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary_actions.php



I don't believe this is an updated list as Steve Rico is still listed, despite his probation having ended.

I was asked to post this for Dennis Janney:

Main Entry: 1pro�fes�sion�al
Pronunciation: pr&-'fesh-n&l, -'fe-sh&-n&l
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions
c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession
(2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace

2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer>
b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

3 : following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>

I think the PDGA did the right thing and on top of the suspension he should be required to run a few tournaments, just not in Columbus.



Nice thought Adam :)

For the record, Jay was not watching him at the time of the temper tantrum; cam was so loud and un-professional that he drew the attention of the marshal (Jay) that was 80-100ft away. I wish I had it on video.......I would share it and let everyone see.......

Give me a minute, I am just trying to catch the drift of this thread.

If I become a touring pro, and manage to become one of the top dogs on the tour, then I can insult anybody I wish and belittle their efforts in front of their friends and other disc golfers with no real concern over punishment? The PDGA shouldn't do anything that would hurt my chance to make money and put food on the table.

I think that is what I am hearing from a few posters. That my situation(job)allows me some leeway in my actions. What if this had been some touring middle of the pack advanced guy with a history, and according to the rules history does play a part in this, should he be suspended?
Shouldn't the players that have reached the top of the sport be held to a higher standard than the average player?

Try this spin on it.
You are a business man, you need a temporary worker(players to attend your event).
You go to a temp agency and ask for help and they send someone over(The TD can not choose which players will attend his event).
This person shows up and does the job(just attending and completing the tournament are all that is required).
Upon finishing the job, the worker comes over and tells you in not too polite terms how bad your business is run and how disgusted he is with having to do a job there.

Do you as a consumer have a right to complain to the agency about the verbal abuse you received from the worker?
Does the agency have the right/responsibility to suspend the worker?
Should the worker be surprised that there are repurcussions to his actions?

How is this different?

Here is a bit of information for the people. The Pdga has e-mailed Cameron a private address that will be used in the appeal process. If anyone out there would like to lend support by writing a letter pertaining to this case it must be sent to [email protected] The people are the Pdga and your voice in this matter is significant in leading to a proper and fair judgement. I find it a little odd that letters submitted on Cam's behalf are not finding there way to the proper department. Isn't that what the Pdga website is created for and how will the people ever know to send there comments to a private address if it is kept a secret? It seems very clear that this case is based on preconceived judgement and has been handled inproperly and would most definitely not be considered a fair trial in any court in this country. The complaint that was submitted has still not been sent to Cam after several request and that is just the beginning of the unfairness that Cam has experienced.

Iqbal,
While I appreciate your wanting to stand up for Cam -as he is obviously a friend of yours and you hold him in high esteem. You appear to be approaching this issue with a greater degree of "one sidedness" (or at least an equal amount) to that which you accuse the PDGA of doing.

The specifics of this incident aside - the principle of holding all players (regardless of their skill level) accountable for their actions while attending sanctioned events - is essential, basic, and absolutely necessary. I'll stand by my first post - and hope that appropriate opportunity to be heard, and due process produce the proper result.

Nice, so the accused is sent a private address which he then shares with a buddy, who then shares it with the world. You'd think we were dealing with Kobe Bryant.
Take it like a man, be responsible for your own actions.

If the outcome of the appeal has been predetermined, then it would be best to make sure that every possible effort is being made to collect information pertaining to the event. :)

I have not had to contend with galleries, but I have had to contend with bikers, joggers, impromptu socccer games, sunbathers, picnicers, and even freestylers (frisbee type) in my fairway before my throw.

There is nothing that says you can't wait until the fairway is clear, in fact the rules require you to wait until the fairway is clear for safeties sake (801.01.A). If the gallery is in the way, just wait, they will catch up and be there for your drive soon.

Nothing that the TD did or didn't do gives a player the right to become loud, rude, or offensive. If there were inequities in the competition, they should be brought to the TD's attention calmly (it's not easy, but it is your job as a professional player) and then to the competition director if you are not satisfied with the results.

If you have been warned about this in the past, you have no leg to stand on if you are subject to disciplinary actions. You should know how to handle the situation, and know that getting loud and offensive with the TD is not the correct way. Not for anyone at anytime regardless of the situation.

Even if the TD really does have it out for you and wants to arrange things so you fail (just a hypothetical worst case scenario, I can't imagine this being real), bringing it to him in this fashion will just give him more ammunition to bring you down.

Play cool, be polite, always, always thank the TD and volunteers for their time and efforts. You do not have to praise them for a great event if you do not believe it was a great event.

It is important that every player realize they should always be grateful for the time, effort and sacrifice required of any TD to host a tournament.

The complaint that was submitted has still not been sent to Cam after several request and that is just the beginning of the unfairness that Cam has experienced.



Lie!

I received an apology over 1 and a half months ago from CAM that was initiated by an e-mail he received, BTW it was half hearted I will post it if I need proof! He said I'm sorry but........ There are no real apologies that contain the word "but"! Anything else you would like to talk about that you have no idea about.................


Do I need to post this?

I didn't think USDGC was sanctioned.



The USDGC is sanctioned at the highest level, a Major! A players does not receive points for Majors, but all monies earned DO count towards a PDGA players stats.



At least in the past the USDGC was a major but it was NOT sanctioned. Further, the TD/Harold made it clear that under the right circumstances he would NOT uphold a valid and current PDGA suspension namely that of Aaron Wield.

Maybe it's different this year, but that's how it was in the past.

By the way Cam is a repeat offender Angry Clown and deserves whatever suspension he gets. Talk of what a great guy he is is irrelevant. Talk of taking away a guy's income is laughable.

It is important that every player realize they should always be grateful for the time, effort and sacrifice required of any TD to host a tournament.



That is all we have ever expected, we welcome criticism, and like I told the PDGA he had some valid points. He did it in a manor that is counter productive.

Actually his suspension is one week longer, he is not welcome in Columbus anymore, he gets to skip the BHMO weather he wants to or not. He stated he was never coming back anyway.

Actually his suspension is one week longer, he is not welcome in Columbus anymore, he gets to skip the BHMO weather he wants to or not.

any sanctioned tournament MUST accept all players who are in good standing. if cam is not suspended at the time, he can enter and play in any tournament he wishes.

the tone of your messages is lending credibility to those who believe there is a pre-ordained nature to the punishment.

any sanctioned tournament MUST accept all players who are in good standing. if cam is not suspended at the time, he can enter and play in any tournament he wishes.




Who would go to a place where they have been told they are not welcome?

any sanctioned tournament MUST accept all players who are in good standing. if cam is not suspended at the time, he can enter and play in any tournament he wishes.


There's no reason the BHMO couldn't move down to a B or C-Tier next year... It wouldn't be the first time an event of A-Tier or higher sanctioning willingly changed to a lower level of sanctioning.

One question I have is will Dan continue to TD the event next year? A man who loves the sport, the golfing community, and the passion to see a vision continue to grow... every day is clearer as to why more people play casual rounds then get involved in running or competing in tournament play.

... And to parents out there, when you teach your children to openly speak their minds and voice their opinions, also teach them to respect the persons they are speaking to, and to also be responsible for their words... All too often today, I hear that same terrible excuse...

My impression of the PDGA this year is that a few hardliners on the Board are intent on showing the disc golf world who's boss. The result has been a subtle shift away from promoting the sport of disc golf to a questionable and almost mandatory promotion of the PDGA itself. Frankly, I don't trust the PDGA anymore. The decision-making is murky and limited to a few people, and it's hard for us players and TDs to figure out not only where the new rules are coming from, but what the new rules are.

1st weird thing that happened to me this year with the PDGA: During a conversation with Dave Nesbitt, it becomes apparant that Dave himself does not know that the new format rules forbid drinking during rounds at ALL PDGA events. Once I point this out to him, he proceeds to explain the "logic" of the rule. I ask for an exemption for my annual Pyramids tournament, and am summarily rejected.

2nd weird thing: After I back out of the NT Tour (I made a huge mistake; I read the NT contract carefully) and post several rants critical of the PDGA on nefa.com, Brian Hoeniger requests a formal apology from me to the PDGA and Board and NT Staff, and I think the Easter Bunny, too. I deliver, without any "buts." The PDGA DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE MY APOLOGY.

3rd weird thing that happened to me this year regarding the PDGA: They attempt to stop the MSDGC from being a USDGC Qualifier, eventually forcing me to apply for PDGA Sanctioning, against my will.

4th weird thing that happened to me this year regarding the PDGA: Theo Pozzy calls me the night before the MSDGC and asks that I deliver a document on its way to me at home to Cam Todd. Turns out Cam is a hard guy to get ahold of. Theo won't tell me what it's all about, but I can tell it's not good news. Another copy is sent to Drew Smith, the New Hampshire State Coordinator, who will also be at the MSDGC. I call Brian Hoeniger. I tell him I don't like the situation, that if I tell Cam AFTER the event it'll be bad and wrong and I'll feel two-faced. Brian says its my responsibility as a State Coordinator and PDGA TD to deliver the envelope. I say this reflects poorly on the PDGA. Brian hangs up on me. I call Theo back and tell him I don't want to do it. We have a long conversation about the PDGA. Theo seems to be enjoying this situation even less than me. At one point in our conversation, Cam appears at Hole 18, and I ask Theo if he wants to talk to him RIGHT NOW. Theo declines.

Drew and I decide it's the right thing to do to deliver Cam the bad news Friday night. Thank goodness, too, cause I can only imagine how rotten it would have been to "serve" Cam PDGA papers after his and Leslie's awards speeches, which were heartfelt and complimentary and wonderful.

5th and most recent weird thing involving me and the PDGA this year: Yesterday Brian Hoeniger tells Steve Dodge that the PDGA will get a percentage of any profits we make from the MSDGC DVD. Funny thing is, we never signed any document agreeing to this. Turns out there are two reasons: We would never have signed such a document (the NT Agreement, for instance, had similar terms about profits that we never would have agreed to). The other reason is that this document, the one that says we owe the PDGA a cut of our DVD profits: IT DOESN'T EXIST YET.

So when I hear that the PDGA has suspended Cam Todd for telling a TD his tournament was bad, my first question is, "WAS it a bad tournament?"

Actually, the video portion is mentioned in the Sanctioning agreement, and was discussed on a thread here earlier this year just after it came out.

part of the basic sanctioning agreement:

The TD:...

� agree that PDGA has the sole right and responsibility, in working constructively with HOST, to award or limit audio and video taping, broadcasting and still photography rights and privileges at the Event, hereinafter called "Media Rights."
The PDGA will work constructively with HOST to share profits from the sale of any product marketed that is based on the
results of this individual event. PDGA shall negotiate such rights on behalf of the Event with local, regional, national, international or independent news or media organization(s). HOST agrees to work constructively with PDGA to obtain a signed PDGA Recording Authorization Agreement with any media organization requesting Media Richts at the Event.

Oh wait, you're saying that everything Jason wrote might not be acurate! NO! Say it isn't so...

Once again, I've found over and over that when I hear the BOD has made snap judgements and hasn't followed the rules that indeed they have. These guys aren't stupid, not perfect I agree, but they rarley (dare I say almost never) jump on people, even when they have been provoked.

What does any of that have to do with the topic at hand? Which is as it appears, that Cam is being suspended NOT because he voiced his opinion, but because of the tone/manner/method he delivered his opinion.

The PDGA leadership is asking players to be respectful of TDs. How rude.

So when I hear that the PDGA has suspended Cam Todd for telling a TD his tournament was bad, my first question is, "WAS it a bad tournament?"



O.k., this is just me speaking in my unofficial capacity as me:

I played the tournament. I posted on the tournament thread that I thought the event was well run with one exception that has nothing to do with this discussion. I left before the incident happened. At this point in the process I do not know what the allegations are or what Cam Todd's response was or will be.

I do know that iqbal's posts are half fact, half hyperbole and half cheap shots. I would treat iqbal's posts the same way I might treat anything from moveon.org or the Swift Vets. Obviously he has a point of view and a preconceived conclusion.

If you were a witness to whatever happened in Columbus, feel free to compose your recollections and send them to the e-mail address iqbal published, or to [email protected], or even to me. Obviously you will need to identify yourself. I don't think anyone on the Board is pre-judging this matter. I know I am not. I think everyone on the board is giving this matter the serious attention it deserves.

I'm just speaking as me, though, and not attempting to represent the board's view in this matter.

jason, would you please run for a position on the PDGA BOD with me this year? what you experienced is unfortunately standard operating procedure for the PDGA these days. while there are a couple good apples on the BOD like terry calhoun, it seems that the BOD is pretty much dominated by the "answer to no one" mentality of nesbitt and non-BOD member guru. it's sad.

i have been trying to get answers from the BOD regarding this suspension, but haven't been given very satisfactory answers.

mr.brakel, did you get the e-mail i sent? i sent it through the "oversight director" e-mail link.

why would a player who allegedly physically threatened another player get only a year of probation, while another who was obnoxiously rude, but didn't threaten anyone with bodily harm, get 4 months suspension and 2 years of probation? if this doesn't show that the current BOD has no clue about what they are doing i don't know what does. when handing out discipline, it must be done equally, and there must be written rules to follow to handle these situations.

jason, if all else fails, we can start our own tour. i think that is why the BOD has it out so bad for Cam, because he has suggested just that. they get really upset when they perceive a threat to their finances, as you have witnessed.

I think its BS he got suspended.. If youre ****** and the TD costs you money by allowing circumstances to get into the way of playing fairly and normally then Cam had the right to yell at the TD.. You people are forgetting here, that the fact the TD allowed for the crowd to be in the way of him while he was shooting and not the lead card, is unfair and cost Cam money. This is his job and when someone costs him money he has the right to get ******. This whole situation sucks for Cam, here he is making a living, and some ******* TD costs him money so he gets ****** and rightfully so yells at him, and then gets laid off from work to where he cant cash for 4 months. I wonder if he can collect unemployment and have the PDGA flip the bill for it. Besides whats the big deal if he did yell at the TD in front of people, thats his right to do so as an american citizen, theres no tv audiance here, our sport isnt that big yet to where you can just start suspending people becasue someone gets yelled at and then cries about it becasuse his feelings got hurt. the PDGA needs to spend more time and effort promoting the sport and getting it bigger not wasting there energy suspending people for voicing there opinon loudly...as long as there werent fists being thrown, no harm no fowl. FREE CAM TODD

I think its BS he got suspended.. If youre ****** and the TD costs you money by allowing circumstances to get into the way of playing fairly and normally then Cam had the right to yell at the TD.. You people are forgetting here, that the fact the TD allowed for the crowd to be in the way of him while he was shooting and not the lead card, is unfair and cost Cam money. This is his job and when someone costs him money he has the right to get ******. This whole situation sucks for Cam, here he is making a living, and some ******* TD costs him money so he gets ****** and rightfully so yells at him, and then gets laid off from work to where he cant cash for 4 months. I wonder if he can collect unemployment and have the PDGA flip the bill for it. Besides whats the big deal if he did yell at the TD in front of people, thats his right to do so as an american citizen, theres no tv audiance here, our sport isnt that big yet to where you can just start suspending people becasue someone gets yelled at and then cries about it becasuse his feelings got hurt. the PDGA needs to spend more time and effort promoting the sport and getting it bigger not wasting there energy suspending people for voicing there opinon loudly...as long as there werent fists being thrown, no harm no fowl. FREE CAM TODD



What? I have a right to yell at people? I don't remember that one in the Bill of Rights. Do you expect to be able to yell at someone and get away with it at YOUR place of work?

cam todd = mike tyson

http://www.born-today.com/Today/pix/tyson_m.jpg

The word "RESPECT !"
DO ON TO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE ON TO YOU!
This is not the first time Cam is be involved in a lack of respect.
There are ways to get your point accross without dis-respect.

A while back I had a run-in with a top player that was acting like a chump on the course. Next time I was at the same event as him - I had a little mantra in my head that said "nothing anybody does, can affect my game".

The point is that blaming somebody or something for how you perform on the course is what is BS. From the accounts given about the gallery at the BHMO - Cam's play was affected for one hole. Later on in the same round he ended up taking a 6 on a hole that was totally unaffected by the gallery - and then he got ******.

Mr Westa - your attitude is equally unacceptable if you feel it is your right "to yell at" anyone during a sanctioned event (espcially the TD of a major event - in front of major sponsors). Do me a favor and go look at the rule book - you don't have to read anything but the first topic in the index - I'll save you the trouble - it's "COURTESY"!!!! If you feel that holding people accountable for acting like a-holes is not or should not be a priority for a sanctioning body trying to oversee 400 events a year, stay home.

You people are forgetting here, that the fact the TD allowed for the crowd to be in the way of him while he was shooting and not the lead card, is unfair and cost Cam money.


You are wrong, the hole he was on makes it physically impossible for a crowd to be ON that hole or even spectating. The small crowd was on the previous hole about 200' away outside of the woods.

LOL, If I do decide to yell at someone or a TD then fine ill take my penalty stroke for a courtesy violation, but if youre sayn its ok to suspend someone for it then thats just dumb... Who hasnt lost there temper before, you train and practive and try to do the best you can for an event and then something stupid like that happens, and he gets into trouble because C-Bus has it in for him, screw that, if thats how it is fine, im sure Cam wont be the only one who will boycott this tourny anyways.

you train and practive and try to do the best you can for an event and then something stupid like that happens



It just HAPPENED? Interesting choice of words. I wonder if that defense will work in his appeal?

mr.brakel, did you get the e-mail i sent? i sent it through the "oversight director" e-mail link.



I did not receive your e-mail. I don't know if that link is working. I sent myself test e-mail Monday night and never got it. Click on my name at right and use that e-mail address: [email protected]

Laugh if you like idjit. One of the few offenses specifically sited in the rule book for DQ or suspension is overt rudeness. If that's how you want to behave - or if you think it's ok for anyone - especially top players to behave that way - me and every other TD out there will welcome your boycott. Like I said - stay home.

Wait a minute, westa. You just said that the PDGA should be concentrating on growing the game instead of picking on someone who is screaming at a TD in front of players and major sponsors?

Hmmm.....

There's a contradiction in there somewhere.

I am a T.D. and I hope I am put into this position, cause this T.D. will be setting a example.
Player comes to me a yells and T.D. knock player out without yelling.
This would be treating someone the way they treat others :D

There are ways to get your point accross without dis-respect.

so the pdga is our mama?

The crowd was only in the way on hole 5 but since the angry clown deuced hole 5 I don't see how they affected him. I was there and watched his whole round and from his actions he should have been suspended from play, there was even talk in his group about courtesy violations being called.
If I talked to my boss the way he talked to Dan I would be looking for another JOB and maybe Cam should be too.

I am a T.D. and I hope I am put into this position, cause this T.D. will be setting a example.
Player comes to me a yells and T.D. knock player out without yelling.
This would be treating someone the way they treat others :D



yeah buddy!!!!!!

Please start another tour. We need all the tours we can get. That would be great for the sport. I love what the boyz on the Southern National Tour are doing. It's like having more choices for president...it provides choice. I have nothing against the PDGA, but then again I don't run tourneys, so I don't see the ***** that goes on behind the scenes. I do not like monopolies!

I just got this from Brian. I'm not sure but I don't think he liked my last post:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Hoeniger writes:

You posted, as part of a larger diatribe:

The PDGA DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE MY APOLOGY.

- You know Jason I have no difficulty in remembering acknowledging and
accepting your apology by phone at my early convenience which may have
not been immediate ... but the apology was sincere and I recall (do
you?) it being gratefully accepted.

3rd weird thing that happened to me this year regarding the PDGA: They
attempt to stop the MSDGC from being a USDGC Qualifier, eventually
forcing me to apply for PDGA Sanctioning, against my will.

- We did not attempt to stop you being a qualifier. You wanted drinking
during the round which is against the rules. A Board member who also
works closely with Harold Duvall felt obliged to advise Harold of this
and Harold wasted no time in advising you to abide by the rule if you
wanted to be a qualifier. You agreed. End of story. Perhaps Harold is
next on your hit list given he insists that all qualifiers be PDGA
sanctioned events (per the comment in your TD report)? Good luck if you
decide to play that card ...

5th and most recent weird thing involving me and the PDGA this year:
Yesterday Brian Hoeniger tells Steve Dodge that the PDGA will get a
percentage of any profits we make from the MSDGC DVD. Funny thing is, we
never signed any document agreeing to this. Turns out there are two
reasons: We would never have signed such a document (the NT Agreement,
for instance, had similar terms about profits that we never would have
agreed to). The other reason is that this document, the one that says we
owe the PDGA a cut of our DVD profits: IT DOESN'T EXIST YET.

- I asked Steve Dodge yesterday to confer on this issue with Dave
Nesbitt which according to Nez he did not. I spoke to Dave this morning
on this issue, and 20 minutes ago advised Joe Proud (who had a call into
the office and who asked me about the same issue) that the PDGA has no
interest in a portion of the $ from your DVD. The agreement will not
apply to events below the NT level, ie those events which are
financially supported by the PDGA. Note that the agreement is also meant
to protect you and your rights, by giving you evidence of formal
approval should you wish to take footage of a PDGA Tour event to a
network (who is likely to ask you for exactlysuch approval from the
governing sports body). Again you have demonstrated a remarkable lack of
professionalism by publicly denouncing us without having completed the
consultative process requested ie Dodge to call Nez on the issue. In
doing so you not undermine the PDGA but also all the good work you and
yours have just completed. If that is your intent, then please don't
expect us to kowtow to you. Perhaps the best idea is for your event to
be independent, non-PDGA, non-USDGC qualifier because frankly why would
anyone want to work with you whom you treat publicly in such bizarre and
unenlightened fashion ?

Maybe you will now delete your post. Maybe you think you are the centre
of the universe today, as rarely have I read such a self-centered post.
Maybe tomorrow will be a better day for you. Either way its all entirely
up to you.

Brian Hoeniger
Executive Director

OK, you are at your place of employment, and the Boss has allowed a few visitors to wander around and look the place over. They are standing in a location that impedes the immediate completion of the task you are working on. For a few minutes only then they will be moving on.

Do you:
A. get upset and yell at the visitors.
B. get upset and allow that to make you ruin the project you are working on.
C. get upset and yell at your boss for letting the visitors interfere with your project.
D. get upset, ruin your project, and then yell at the boss telling him it's his fault because he let the visitors in.
E. take a break and finish when the visitors are no longer in the way.

BTW, none of this is directed at Cam Todd since I was not a witness to the incident and have nothing personal against him. It is directed to the type of actions described as having happened after that event and to the perception that it should not be considered a serious offense.

For someone looking for respect and consideration, you are showing very little of either by posting a private communication with no indication of requesting permission.

And here's my reply to Brian:

Brian, such a pleasure communicating with you. I've decided to post this exchange of ours on the discussion page to bring it out into the open? Instead of having everything be a secret, like the circumstances of player suspensions.

Point one, my apology. If you remember my e-mail "Apologizing into a black hole," you may be able to unearth other buried memories. You bullied me. I said I was sorry. You responded with silence.

You DID try to stop me from being a qualifier. Why would the PDGA want an agreement with Harold to force all of his qualifiers to be PDGA sanctioned? The behind the scenes warning to Harold about my wanting drinking was itself a not so subtle attempt to let Harold know that I'm not to be trusted.

As for Harold being next on my hit list, that'll never happen. He unvariably treats me with respect, and he listens to my concerns seriously. He also understand how important it is for a TD to call the shots at his own events. You and Nesbitt could take a lesson from Harold about how to treat your volunteers.

You suggest my post undermines the PDGA. My position is that whoever's in charge at the PDGA this year is undermining the PDGA. You've raised fees, added rules, stripped PDGA TDs of some of their power, replacing it with yours. And in your effort to control the direction the game is taking, you've created a growing perception of the PDGA as arrogant and uncompromising.

And you constantly use the words "Professional" and "Professionalism" to tell me what I don't have. Collared shirts are "Professional." Conduct you don't like lacks "Professionalism." Those words begin to lose their meaning if you talk to the PDGA enough. What I think is really telling is how you've reacted to this and prior criticisms from me. A strong organization should be able to take my criticisms with stride, especially if I'm the nutcase you make me out to be.

As for the DVD profit sharing, again you misrepresent the facts. YOU brought it up to Steve. He didn't take you seriously, so he didn't see any need to talk to Nesbitt, especially since talking to Nesbitt is a colossal waste of time anyway. At any rate, you yourself quickly realized the senselessness of demanding money from us for our DVD sales. The PDGA had nothing to do with the DVD that doesn't exist yet.

What other nonesense should I address? You kowtow to me? You're not even civil.

Me having a bad day? I'm having a splendid day.

What I think you need, Brian, is either a vacation or a larger staff or a sudden epiphamy that disc golf will thrive even without your management, even if lunatics like me rip you apart in public, even if non-sanctioned events are USDGC Qualifiers.

Or maybe you can convince your buddies to suspend me in secret session, for conduct detrimental to the PDGA. I bet you're already mulling that one over.

Jason Southwick

HAPPY B-DAY GARY :D

Thanks,

Just a few more 'til GM.

Posting private emails and private messages is always a low-class move.

Moving your debate with Brian to a public forum at this point is equally low-class.

hey bumple, we would actually be better off if we could gather all the people together who have been disc-gusted with the error of the PDGA BOD's ways, and make the PDGA stronger instead of splintering disc golf into a bunch of smaller tours which seems to be happening. i'd rather only start a new tour as a last resort.

please vote for a change when you get your PDGA ballots this year. i am running for competition director and will do my utmost to bring the PDGA to the glory it would have attained years ago if it weren't for our executive director and current competition director's absolutely unacceptable poor attitudes towards the people who try to build this great sport.

i wish everyone could have been to mr. southwick's MSDGC tournament last weekend...it was one for the ages; it saddens me that hoeniger asked mr. southwick to do his dirty work of informing Cam of his suspension instead of having the courage to do it himself. while i as a TD do not condone anyone berating TD's, Cam is not the greatest enemy of TD's at the present time...it is Brian Hoeniger himself. he is not more valuable than any TD and he should show more respect for TD's like mr. southwick who are doing the work to make a great tour and pay Brian's salary.

how much longer will we tolerate this? VOTE FOR CHANGE!!!

As much as I don't really want to get into any of this, I feel compelled to respond to part of your post, Mikey.

it saddens me that hoeniger asked mr. southwick to do his dirty work of informing Cam of his suspension instead of having the courage to do it himself.


From what I gathered from Jason's first post, Jason was asked to deliver a letter to Cam. Whether it was a letter of suspension or a fat check for Worlds that Cam forgot to pick up, Jason did not know what was in it nor was he at liberty to ask what was in it (it really is none of his business). The PDGA, via Theo and Brian, asked Jason to deliver a letter to a touring pro who was known to be at his tournament (and who otherwise has no way to receive mail while on the road). To me, that does not seem to be an unreasonable request and by no means is it getting Jason to do some kind of dirty work. The phrase "don't shoot the messenger" comes to mind.

As for the rest of this discussion, I'm going to resist comment. It's a headache I've had before, and I'd prefer to avoid it this time.

--Josh

I generally try to stay out of the manure hurling contests on this discussion page as it is rare that something good ever comes out of it, but in light of some of the idiotic comments I am reading, I feel compelled to make a few comments.

Having worked very closely with the current Board of Directors and office staff on several projects including the National Tour and the National Disc Golf Center, I can say in no uncertain terms that we have never in the history of our organization had a more competent and effective board and office staff as we currently have. Brian and Lorrie brought a new level of professionalism and organization to the PDGA office at a very critical time in our evolution. Brian is without a doubt the most effective administator / executive director that we have ever had. We are very, very lucky to have both of them working on our behalf and representing our organization.

The rapid growth of our great sport and our organization is bringing many new issues to light that previous Boards were not forced to address. It is only rational to expect growing pains. I have not encountered a single Board member who does not have our best interest at heart. I am amazed that they are willing to volunteer so many hours on our behalf and put up with so much unwarranted abuse from some of our members. Change is not an easy pill to swallow for many. It is a shame that a very vocal minority feels compelled to trash reputations and make ridiculous accusations against the fine people we have elected to lead us because they have a differing opinion on a matter. I challenge these people to channel this negative energy into doing something positive for the sport instead of using it to cause divisiveness and slow our progress.

I just want to say,,,Thanks Board members and office staff ! You are all the reasons that I am proud to be a member of the PDGA.

well i was responding to a post by the executive director, but it has been deleted, so if the following seems a little out of context, i apologize:

people can change, can't they? i do wish i could do better controlling my angry outbursts on this website. i want to help, but it is hard to work with those who sometimes won't concede that things could be better. i think that the ED could do a better job of uniting us into a more powerful organization if he would use his considerable influence to persuade the BOD to allow up and coming TDs the ability to run their tournaments in a way which the TDs feel is in the best interest of the sport. This would mean more flexibilty on the part of the PDGA competition committee to allow for greater creativity by the TDs. i think it is obvious that the BOD and ED have done a poor job raising sponsorship in comparison to what the TDs across america have done in this arena. would we turn down a major sponsorhip if say budweiser wanted to sponsor us, or would this current BOD say it would be a bad image for our sport? we can't afford to turn anyone away.

i regret that the voters did not have more choices than they did in the last election; i really hope this year there are five or ten candidates running for each position on the BOD each more qualified than i. i may not be the politest or smartest candidate on the ballot, but i keep an open mind. i also regret that our rules and constitution are so outdated and vague that the BOD is writing new procedures in haste to handle situations they have let get out of control, such as the cam suspension and last year's rico fiasco. i'm not sure if steve's case was handled appropriately either at a worlds that was made stressful by nesbitt's decision to not shuffle all the pro pools and to have players continue rounds 4 days after suspending play and having these players try to figure out where their discs were. or maybe a player other than cam stretched the rules and steve was angry about that? was it any wonder steve was stressed out?

the competition director needs to put rules in place so that players know exactly what is expected of them. if players need to be disciplined to enforce proper behavior, the rules, including how discipline is assessed, need to be much clearer than they are now.

I would like to second what Brian is saying here. I have been involved in several small organizations and clubs and have watched them grow and evolve. I am frankly amazed at what the PDGA and its volunteers have accomplished given their numbers, backing and funding. When I first saw some of the harsh criticism that gets thrown their way I wondered if it was merited. With time I learned that in every case I witnessed they were correct and acted with great professionalism and restraint given the personal attacks leveled at them. No they do not respond perfectly but they do pretty good given that I've seen them called liars, bullies, braggarts, power junkies, and incompetent amongst other things.

Kudos to the BOD, Brian and Lorrie for your professionalism and what you've done for the sport.

Just as an aside, as a manager, whether managing up or down, I have always been told that even if you are going to lose, you should treat those you are trying to influence with respect. It pays off the next time you have an issue. This may be why I tend to support the BOD, they treat me, and others, with respect even when we sometimes don't deserve it.

On a different note, I have seen several posts here directed straight at some board members. I don't know all of them but I do know Dave Nesbitt, not well, but some. I have found him to be professional, even when he disagreed with me. The idea that he is somehow not, goes straight against my personal experience.

Finally, I have always been under the impression that e-mails sent privately were meant to be private. I have sent some pretty stupid e-mails to other posters who have treated me with the common curtsey of not placing them here. Given what has happened here, all I can say is thank you for that regard.

Posting private emails and private messages is always a low-class move.

Moving your debate with Brian to a public forum at this point is equally low-class.

Hear, hear!

Very well put, Brian Graham.

Guru and Lorrie have always been extremely accomodating to me, even when I screw up and forget to get sanctioning or whatever until the last second. :o I find it amazing that they are able to keep any sanity dealing with all of us.

Thank you Guru and Lorrie! Thank you PDGA BOD! You are actually doing something, and that's worth a lot. I don't even care if some of the stuff doesn't work out as long as you/we are trying. If we knew the right answers to everything, we'd multi-million dollar purses already. Until then we need to keep trying, and our current PDGA leadership is doing that.

Attention PDGA BOD's: I have a question concerning the integrity of this sport I love dearly. Only the BOD will be able to provide true answers to this. How come such a severe discipline was given to Cam, but yet in a situation that happened in OK with Mr. Huffman, barely anything was said, and the consequences were nothing but a probationary slap on the hand. The incident I am referring to stems around alleged stealing of PDGA monies, and what could be viewed as fraud surrounding a tournament. If that is not a severe crime, and one punishable to the highest degree, then what is? Please BOD, enlighten me and the rest of the people in PDGA who want to have this sport be at the next level. I know I am not a 1000 rated player, or member of any committees, but do know I actively represent this sport with dignity, do my part in maintaining any course I play, and in fact pay my dues and tournament fees to compete within an organization that is supposed to guide and enforce policies without bias. Please enlighten me.

i will take the opportunity here to apologize to mr. hoeniger for saying he asked mr. southwick to do his dirty work. it was actually theo. sorry for the confusion, and for my continued poor choices of words on this forum. i just have the utmost respect for mr. southwick after attending his incredible tournament (the best non-major since mr. graham's 2003 Hall of Fame Classic) and it bothers me that the PDGA hasn't been more welcoming of his talent as a disc golf promoter. it also bothers me that it took almost two months for mr. pozzy to make a decision on cam's suspension and it doesn't appear cam was ever able to present any testimony that might have helped him; now that the suspension is on appeal everything is being rushed...it's obvious that the PDGA wants to make a statement by suspending Cam...but what is it? is it, we will do things unequally, and make things up as we go?

In such a pissing fight everyone usually ends up covered in urine. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

See that looks like a good trigger post that will later be edited into a harmless post. After everyone starts posting about it though.

Without knowing the specifics of this incident or this player's history, or whatever happened in OK, it is impossible for me to agree/disagree. However, I have had similar feelings based on my knowledge of two totally different scearios and how they were handled.

The point that the board may want to consider is: right or wrong, there is a perception of unequal treatment amongst those dealt with by the PDGA. Part of this can be attributed to the fact that we see things in isolation and aren't privy to all the discipline cases. However, I also suspect that part of this perception is due to the lack of a clearly drafted policy on how to handle different infractions.

It seems to me that it would be good for both the Board and the membership to try to "codify" a list of actions and the associated penalties. Also include how penalties are stiffened for second and third, etc. offenses. By creating and publicizing the final product (and hopefully gathering input before final adoption), you have taken much of the "apparent subjectivity" out of the decisions. I mean, it would be kind of clear cut. The committee simply says "Player X has done this X times and this is the penalty."

Craig, by board policy, and I think it's sound policy, the why or why not of disciplinary decisions relating to 804.05C, other than in very general terms and without specific reference to individual instances, is something that people in PDGA leadership roles should not publish about in venues such as DISCussion. It's absolutely a matter of being responsible for fairness to members and member privacy, and it's a pretty standard policy for nonprofit association elected leadership.

I doubt if anyone on the board is sitting out here without an urge to post. I can assure you that I experience that urge frequently. But it's part of our responsibilities not to, no matter how difficult that may be.

...it doesn't appear cam was ever able to present any testimony that might have helped him;



Actually, Cam spoke with the head of the Disciplinary Committee the weekend before Worlds while in Des Moines, IA.

For the future Competition Director nominee, I recommend getting your facts straight before swinging away.

<font color="blue"> Mr. Westa.... Whoa....Whoa...easy there big fella....
Did you come to the BHMO this year, or any year for that matter?
Have you ever even met the TD that you so graciously slammed?
I think you are way out of line here because most of what you say is toally unsubstantiated. I saw an earlier post that you made concerning CBus'rs out to get Cam...PLEASE....do you really hold him in that high of regard to think that? All of us have much better things to do other than go after a touring player that comes to town once a year...maybe... he is not worth that effort. Most of us have nothing personal against him, but his actions were not appropriate. As long as he plays in the PDGA, he, like the rest of us, agree to play by their rules...if we don't like them, then we can choose not to play in their events, or if there is so much corruption in the PDGA, why don't you and Cam run for office so you can start making a change, instead of just complaining about things. </font>
"I think its BS he got suspended.. If youre ****** and the TD costs you money by allowing circumstances to get into the way of playing fairly and normally then Cam had the right to yell at the TD.
<font color="blue"> The right to yell was already addressed by someone else so I'll leave that one alone.
</font>
You people are forgetting here, that the fact the TD allowed for the crowd to be in the way of him while he was shooting and not the lead card, is unfair and cost Cam money.
<font color="blue"> You weren't even here to know what took place, but at anyrate, Cam has and had every right to complain if his experience was not good. We even supplied a tournament feedback survey so that we could get information on how to keep making this a better tournmanet.He also has the right to hold up play if he needs to ask someone to hold still or be quiet... BTW...those were given to players, not sponsors, volunteers etc... so that we can continue to make this a stop for all the top players....(go look at the history of this tournment and you'll see that a good percentage of top players come back every year) </font>
This is his job and when someone costs him money he has the right to get ******. This whole situation sucks for Cam, here he is making a living, and some ******* TD costs him money so he gets ****** and rightfully so yells at him, and then gets laid off from work to where he cant cash for 4 months. I wonder if he can collect unemployment and have the PDGA flip the bill for it.
<font color="blue">Here in America we are lucky because we get to CHOOSE what our profession is.... it is not mandated by anyone, what your job is....It is a privilage for anyone to be able to say " I make a living playing disc golf". If were not for the efforts and dedication of many many people, there wouldn't be a PDGA, tournaments, etc... Where do you think the money comes from that he gets to collect if he plays well...in the real business world you make money because you are vaulable and contribute to your company, which in turn makes a profit which pays for your salary. No one held a gun to his head and said....you have to play disc golf for a living...he has the choice to enter whatever profession he chooses, however, with the attitude that gets displayed, it's no wonder that this is how he would have to try to make a living. </font>
Besides whats the big deal if he did yell at the TD in front of people, thats his right to do so as an american citizen, theres no tv audiance here, our sport isnt that big yet to where you can just start suspending people becasue someone gets yelled at and then cries about it becasuse his feelings got hurt. the PDGA needs to spend more time and effort promoting the sport and getting it bigger not wasting there energy suspending people for voicing there opinon loudly...as long as there werent fists being thrown, no harm no fowl. FREE CAM TODD" -
<font color="blue"> That's what I love about the 1st admendment....it gives so many people the chance to step up and put their foot right in their mouth..
I honestly hope that you would consider coming to the BHMO next year so you can see first hand, the kind of event that we host. Form your own opinion from that instead of what someone else has told you.
Cam was right about one thing...we do try to make money for charity.....is that a bad thing? did you see what his payout was...it's obvious that not only do we make money for a charitable organization, but we also have a killer purse!!!
We had 140+ golfers this year, and most years we fill up, so we must be doing something right..... </font>

It seems to me that it would be good for both the Board and the membership to try to "codify" a list of actions and the associated penalties. Also include how penalties are stiffened for second and third, etc. offenses. By creating and publicizing the final product (and hopefully gathering input before final adoption), you have taken much of the "apparent subjectivity" out of the decisions. I mean, it would be kind of clear cut. The committee simply says "Player X has done this X times and this is the penalty."



I second that. While it would be impossible to list every possible infraction, it seems to be viable to list a range of punishments that are viable for various offenses. I think it would be wise to develop a set standard of punishments as every other sports league has. I also believe that the whole process should be better laid out in the rules, and more clearly defined in the constitution.

While I agree that some clarification is probably necessary and the power to levy fines being an obvious addition, I don't think we should make these rules a sort of menu of bad behavior. Individual incidents should be treated individually. If you have a menu of how to handle each situation then you will inevitably be confronted with a situation in which the person being punished does not deserve the punishment. Relate it to the "three strikes, you're out" types of punishment rules. A gang member gets 2 felony convictions when he is 20 years old. Does time, gets out and cleans himself up. Then 20 years later he goes to a bar, has too much to drink and gets into a brawl. Someone is cut bad and he's charged with felony battery. Now a judge has to put him away for the rest of his life for one bad night on the town.

Now, I'm not saying that any incident in disc golf is ever as serious as the above. But still we don't want to force someone to make too strong of a punishment just because the menu says they have to.

Is the PDGA providing what the BOD want or what Disc Golfers want? This is yet another example of 22000 members but only 8000 active. Only 8000 members are in the PDGA actively, that is the true crime here. As a fairly new member I don't trust the BOD or TD's in general, my apologgies to those who do it right, don't get mad this isn't directed at you just the others I have heard or seen. And yes word of mouth perspection IS REALITY folks.,There are probably 8000 bowlers in any large city in the US, and that many casual Disc Golfers just in the state of Texas. Do you honestly think that the old timer's of the PDGA are going to get this sport where it needs to be? They couldn't even retain 70% of the members who once were part of the organization. Can't get the BIG sponsorship money or TV or etc. etc. etc. how many years in the White House are we going to give them?

Bad boys exist in every sport because "THEY ARE COMPETITIVE" not because they are BAD PEOPLE. By the way they tend to attract TV audiences, just ask Rodman or McEnroe, The TD could have handle this differently, the BOD could of handled it differently, Cam could have handled it differently. BUT MAKE THE PUNISHMENT MATCH THE CRIME and document the LAWS and provide for a FAIR TRIAL wtih a jury of my peers or some impartial party. one word here ARBITRATION. These concepts work for our society and murder tirals which are way more important than any of this.

So what does this all mean, Hell I don't know!

ps
Cam, come to the OCTOBERFRIZ, 5 days of peace LOVE & plastic, the way disc golf was meant to be, BTW it isn't sanctioned & there is FREE BEER.......... and great payouts

...it doesn't appear cam was ever able to present any testimony that might have helped him;



Actually, Cam spoke with the head of the Disciplinary Committee the weekend before Worlds while in Des Moines, IA.

For the future Competition Director nominee, I recommend getting your facts straight before swinging away.



According to an EMAIL I just recieved from the PDGA, because I have an event upcoming....

Cam Todd is NOT currently SUSPENDED...His case is under APPEAL and a decision on the matter will be forth coming :o

I know I just read that.
1. During this appeal, this disciplinary action is not in effect, and the player may continue to play in sanctioned PDGA tournaments.

Do most professional sports follow this same policy? I really don't know and am curious.

What!?


And yes word of mouth perspection IS REALITY folks.,



So, those stories I hear about guys waking up in a bathtub full of ice with their kidney missing are true? Or even better, the black helicopters our government has spying on us do exist?

Word of mouth is gossip, I prefer facts.


Do you honestly think that the old timer's of the PDGA are going to get this sport where it needs to be?



I presume you are referring to the current BOD and others. Just an FYI, some of those guys have been in the PDGA less than 10 years. They aren't old timers, they're simply older than you. Am I to assume that because they are over 30 they are therefore old timers or out of touch? The reality is that they have molded the PDGA into a credible organization that is beginning to show phenomenal promise. Is it that you somehow expect that a volunteer organization is going to be rich overnight? You need to look at the growth of other sports. What the PDGA (i.e. those old timers /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) has done is fantastic.


Bad boys exist in every sport because "THEY ARE COMPETITIVE" not because they are BAD PEOPLE. By the way they tend to attract TV audiences, just ask Rodman or McEnroe



You need to take a closer look. Rodman was a jerk, he couldn't get sponsorships or any real recognition. Compare him to Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Tiger Woods or Magic Johnson all of whom have more credibility and make/made a ton more money. McEnroe did better but compare him to Pete Sampras. There's no one who doesn't respect Sampras; McEnroe was a pain and didn't get near the sponsorships.

There is a reason the major sports in this country aren't making money like they used to. They had this notion that fans would tolerate the "bad boys." They now realize this is wrong. That's why they fine the heck out of those bad boys when they act up.

I was questioned last night on the disciplinary process - and could not provide an answer. I will agree that a laundry list of punishments is perhaps not the best course of action. However, I have heard an awful lot of comments here that highlight the lack of information available to the membership about the disciplinary process.

After reading the section in the constitution regarding discipline - I have only a little better understanding of the process than before. Perhaps having something available in the info section of this website would be appropriate to help avoid people claiming - "that guy got hosed", or "why did it take so long".

My understanding from the snippetts I have seen, and from what I've read in the constitution is that for disciplinary action to be taken - a petition from at least 20 members (or witnesses maybe?) needs to be submitted - and reviewed by the disciplinary committee for review. Once reviewed, they make a recommendation to the commissioner - who renders a decision. I have seen no mention of how long this is supposed to take, or at what point the accused gets the opportunity to defend themself. This sort of info would go a long way in making members more comfortable with the disciplinary process IMO.

I have seen no mention of how long this is supposed to take, or at what point the accused gets the opportunity to defend themself. This sort of info would go a long way in making members more comfortable with the disciplinary process IMO.


I agree.

10 years is an old timer,

good & evil exist in all sports Rodman v Jordan, Sampras v Mc Enroe, Dale v Gordon, Hulk Hogan v Andre the giant, Tyson v Holyfield, Tiger v John Daily, Daily has walked off the course swearing at Pro Am events, thrown his driver in the bay etc etc, So do you not like him, because thousands of golf fans do. It is a simple reality, and there is room for both in any sport.

shown promise? Where are the RESULTS?

Word of mouth is what the USA was built on "The British are coming, The British are coming..." fact or fiction? Glad they didn't wait for the whites of their eyes to bear arms just waited to pull the trigger....... where's my musket anyways?

ps I'm a Master so this isn't an age thing!

In addition to the petition method,
DQs automatically go before the DC to determine if suspension is also warranted.

If we are talking about improvements to the PDGA we can start here.

I think EVERY competing AM and Pro should sell 4 Disc a year and buy a NEW player a Membership to the PDGA. If we want out numbers to grow and we want more people to participate then WE need to get off OUR ACES and stop waiting for the PDGA to do something. Just imagine what kind of PR and image that would be if 8000 of our active members each bought a membership for a newbie. Then we would have 16000 active members instead of 8000. Then if they did the same thing the next year with some of their merch winnings then we would have 32000 active members. If that cotinued for 5 years our numbers would be HUGE.

I know that almost everyone that competes actively in the PDGA wins atleast 4 disc a year that they can sell and buy a membership with. That would be the best thing we could do for our sport is bring NEW people in OURSELVES and not just expect the PDGA to go out and get new members.

I agree that the process should be more clearly stated. In a related thread, it appeared difficult to understand, but after some time, my recollection is that it appears fair, on paper at least.

However, I still maintain that we, the members and potential bad actors need guidance on this matter. Most of us probably agree on many things that are unacceptable, but I suspect we weigh the severity differently. For example, is pencil whipping worse than smoking pot during a tournament? I say it is far worse. I suspect there are others that don't agree. How does the committee feel. None of us know.

It does not have to be a "laundry list," or necessarily a "menu of bad behaviour." There will (and should) always be some discretion. It's no different than the laws we all live by. They're written down for guidance and to express a collective will of the populace. However, discretion and common sense reflection (appeals/human judgements) will always be part of the process.

The alternative is far worse and is what we apparently presently have. The boundaries are unclear. Though they may be clear to the disciplinary committee, my experience is that the boundaries are too-often defined by individuals acting on their own idea of unacceptable behaviour and their own hierarchy of wrongs. The collective result of these individual decisions appears arbitrary and confusing to those on the sideline.

As long as we lack clear guidelines, threads like these will always have traction.

Millz, what a great idea. And NOW is the time to do it, 'cause any brand-new member can join now through the rest of 2004 and their initial membership lasts throughout 2005 as well.

I just called and spoke with Lorrie Gibson, in the PDGA office, and we would like to ask you to be involved with such a campaign, maybe even head it up :D with assistance from staff, of course. I envision it as some kind of contest running from now through December, with rewards of various kinds.

If there anyone else who would like to work with Millz on planning and implementing something like this? If so, let me, Steve, or the office - [email protected] - know by the end of the USADGC next weekend. And we'll kick this puppy into gear.

You need to take a closer look. Rodman was a jerk, he couldn't get sponsorships or any real recognition. Compare him to Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Tiger Woods or Magic Johnson all of whom have more credibility and make/made a ton more money. McEnroe did better but compare him to Pete Sampras. There's no one who doesn't respect Sampras; McEnroe was a pain and didn't get near the sponsorships.




Totally clueless assumptions there. Rodman was sponsored (by Nike - they had some great commercials) and did just fine. He didn't get the recognition that the others did because he wasn't a scorer, he was a defender and rebounder (actually, he was THE rebounder in the league). It's the same reason Jonathan Ogden doesn't make the same money Jamal Lewis does.

McEnroe was arguably as good if not a better player than Sampras (he faced much tougher competition) and did just fine with sponsorships (and is doing well now).

Like it or not, bad boys attract fans, and fans attract sponsors.

I just called and spoke with Lorrie Gibson, in the PDGA office, and we would like to ask you to be involved with such a campaign, maybe even head it up with assistance from staff, of course. I envision it as some kind of contest running from now through December, with rewards of various kinds.



Sounds great just let me know what you guys are thinking and we can get something going on this. Your right Terry this would be the month so do it because they would get the rest of this year and ALL of next year.

I think this is heading in the right direction, but as far as launching a campaign, it may need to be looked at more. If you are looking to gain membership, then do what the majority of businesses do worldwide. You have a sort of pro-rated entry fee. Example: Why should a new beginner pay the same fees as a new to join pdga touring pro? If you have the rates a little lower for a beginner, they may actually want to join and play in sanctioned events. I do not know too many beginners that are willing to drop $40 or more on a tournament, then join pdga on top of it. This is why I believe there are an abundance of golfers out there, and good ones to boot, that just don't join or play in pdga events. It also makes sense to me that if a new player wants to start playing tournaments, that as long as they pay to play in a pdga sanctioned event, to give them a three month or so window where they can play in pdga events, get their feet wet, and then decide whether or not to join. No additional pdga fees for not being a member. After the grace period, you join or throw in an additional $5. Who's got two cents to throw on this?

I just called and spoke with Lorrie Gibson, in the PDGA office, and we would like to ask you to be involved with such a campaign, maybe even head it up with assistance from staff, of course. I envision it as some kind of contest running from now through December, with rewards of various kinds.



Sounds great just let me know what you guys are thinking and we can get something going on this. Your right Terry this would be the month so do it because they would get the rest of this year and ALL of next year.




I guess you did'nt notice the sarcasm..

The thing is that you are getting 5 dollars off every tournament you play in when your a member. You play in 8 tournaments and the membership pays for itself. You also receive 4 issues of DGWN which in my opinion is worth Atleast 20 Dollars in itself. So you figure if you get a membership now for 40 Dollars you get: A Brand new disc. A Mini with your PDGA # Stamped on it and you get the next 2 issues from this year and all 4 issues next year. You get all your points from your tournaments tracked online. You receive a PDGA player rating and some disc stores even give you a discount for being a PDGA member. There doesnt need to be any discount. All that for 40 bucks a year is a great deal already. We just need to get more people to sign up for it so that they know what its all about and the benefits of it. Once they become a member and get out to some tournaments they will be hooked and will WANT to buy their own membership. Most of the NEW casual semi tournament golfers you speak of dont even KNOW about becoming a member of the PDGA which is more of the reason they arent members then the 40 dollar fee. I dont know anyone who would complain about gettin 5 dollars off your entry fee a disc a mini and 4 issues of a great Disc Golf mag for 40 bucks a year.

We just have to get out there and start promoting the sport on our own. The PDGA is busy doing all the great stuff they already do for us that i mentioned above: Ratings, Points, sending out information updating rules, setting up tournaments. They dont really have to to PUSH the membership issue so WE as players and members NEED to do it.

I guess you did'nt notice the sarcasm..



Guess not.

Hey atleast i am willing to do something that NEEDS to be done instead of just complaining like a bunch of little girls on the message board about what needs to be done and then never doing anything. :o

discpimp: explain to me then why so many golfers don't jump on the huge bargain of $40 to join pdga so they can have their magazine subscription. If you open your eyes and look around, you will notice that there are way more golfers not in pdga, then the number of pdga members enjoying their magazine. Seriously, think about it for a minute before you respond.

Man, I didn't notice any sarcasm. I just assumed we were given a glimpse of the behind-the-scenes policy making.

Man, I didn't notice any sarcasm. I just assumed we were given a glimpse of the behind-the-scenes policy making.



LMAO!

discpimp: explain to me then why so many golfers don't jump on the huge bargain of $40 to join pdga so they can have their magazine subscription. If you open your eyes and look around, you will notice that there are way more golfers not in pdga, then the number of pdga members enjoying their magazine. Seriously, think about it for a minute before you respond.



If you read my post you would have read that most of those GOLFER dont even KNOW the PDGA exists. Id have to say maybe 10-20% of the people who play disc golf even know what the PDGA IS let alone know that you can be a MEMBER of the PDGA and get all that stuff for 40 bucks a month.

Seriously, read my posts before you respond to them.

Having the opportunity to live on both coasts, I disagree with you entirely. I have met so many people who have been playing for years, but refuse to pay so much to join the pdga for whatever reason they have. Go to club events in most cities and you will see in person what I am talking about. These people exist, they play in local events, some even pdga events, but do not join the organization. I do agree that targeting people by education is a great way to do it. How do you target people who do know of pdga?

How about giving memberships away as a mandatory prize at every sanctioned event. What did Guru say 547 events this year? It's not doubling the membership - but it also takes zero work.

9/1/2004 12/31/2006 12827
Cameron Todd AL 4 Month Suspension, 2 Year Probation (currently under appeal1)

Notes:
1. During this appeal, this disciplinary action is not in effect, and the player may continue to play in sanctioned PDGA tournaments.

Cam will be playing this week-end in the Hickory Classic

Go to club events in most cities and you will see in person what I am talking about. These people exist, they play in local events, some even pdga events, but do not join the organization.



Do you realize what you are saying. CLUB EVENTS. These people dont even make up 20% of the population of disc golfers. The people at club events OBVIOUSLY already know about the PDGA and tournaments and all that because they go and maybe even belong to a club.

Im talking about going out to the course on a beautiful day and asking every person you see if they know what the PDGA is and if they know they can become a MEMBER of the PDGA. I would bet that 10-20% of the people at best would know what you are talking about and 80-90% of the people on that course would look at you like your a crazy person and have NO CLUE what the PDGA is or anything of the sort. Go ahead and try for yourself. Then youll see what IM talking about.

(What does it all mean?)


(What does it all mean?)
Difficult preaching is Notorius' pleasure
Pleasure and preaching starts in the heart
It means you care, along with myself and a lot of other people...the situation is in appeal, so it looks like the beat goes on...

The error on the PDGA Disciplinary Actions (http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary_actions.php) page has been corrected - thank you for pointing it out. Mr. Huffman has been suspended for a minimum of six months.

I am working very closely with the Disciplinary Committee to ensure that our disciplinary actions are as consistent as they can be, which is more challenging when many of the cases involve situations that we are dealing with for the first time.

Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner

Maybe I can shed a little light on some of this. I am in my late 30s with a steady job (disposable income) and took up disc golf 11 months ago. Since then I've purchased 30+ discs, a bag, basket, 2 DG videos, and a book. I joined the local DG club for 2004 and I'll renew at the end of the year. I've obviously found this webside so I know the pdga exists. I've read that for $40 I can become a member and play in pdga sponsored events but at this point I have not intention to do that. That's not why I play disc golf. So someone would need to show me the value I would receive for my $40. I don't know what a pdga membership has to offer me. I've read a few things today that I wasn't aware of (magazines, minis, etc.) but is it enough to dig in my wallet? Let's say next year I decide I want to play in a pdga tourney, can't I get a $5 temporary one? Still cheaper than $40. See what I'm saying? In my case I don't see the value I would be getting from a pdga membership for the $40 I would be paying.

I like Mills idea about selling discs and buying memberships, but only because I've been doing that for four years for the Waterford Junior Girls' Club. Every kid playing league who says they want to go to tournaments gets a membership every year we've been running the club.

But I am maxed out on time with what I've got going right now. Ask me to donate and dye trophy discs for the top three new membership donors. I'll do that.

Well if you want to play in a PDGA event you will have to pay 5 dollars EVERY time you play in one. So if you play in 8 you might as well have paid the Membership fee and gotten you PDGA stamped disc your free mini with your Number on it and 4 issues of DGWN. So if you want to play in any PDGA events next year you might as well spend the 40. Dont you think that 40 dollars is worth Getting a Rating, Getting all your stats kept track of all year. A new Disc a new mini with your very own number on it and 4 issues of what i think is the best disc golf magazine around???

I played 23 PDGA event this year. Had i not been a member thats 115 dollars in fees i would have had to pay. So in my eyes this years membership just paid for my renewal for the next 3 years plus i got that magazine and a rating and a disc and a mini.

I myself believe it is worth it just to get the DGWN all year. It always has great info in it. Good tips and advice about how to improve your game. It has the up to date PDGA tournament schedule in it.

From my point of view i dont see why EVERY disc golfer isnt a member. I know for a fact that just about EVERY disc golfer is going to buy 4 discs that they are not going to use. Why not spend 40 bucks on a membership to the PDGA???

(What does it all mean?)


(What does it all mean?)
Difficult preaching is Notorius' pleasure
Pleasure and preaching starts in the heart
It means you care, along with myself and a lot of other people...the situation is in appeal, so it looks like the beat goes on...



Three... that's the magic number, yes it is, it's the magic number...

De La Soul, baby! And well, Schoolhouse Rock before that.

I wasn't even playing tournaments very much when I joined. I, too, had some disposable income. I'd been playing one-disc disc golf for years and years, and had played a total of one tournament.

I figured, what the heck. I'll support the National organization for disc golf. So I signed myself and my son up.

Like it or not, bad boys attract fans, and fans attract sponsors.



That's not the complete story. You mention McEnroe, but Ivan Lendl also had a bad temper, and he didn't attract fans. What McEnroe did was attract fans IN SPITE OF his temper. He added style to the mix, style that came through in his tennis playing, so that even his outbursts could be occasionally entertaining. He wasn't simply angry. That would've been unpleasant to watch -- and sometimes still was. When his talent and style diminished, it became unbearable to see him get angry on the court, and he quit before he lost his sponsors.

Now I don't know Cameron Todd. Maybe his outbursts, if that's what he's having, are entertaining to spectators, even if they are painful to the TDs who receive them. But I'd hate to bank on that to get lucrative sponsors, and I doubt that someone with a bad temper would ever get a chance at oodles of money until they've demonstrated that their displays of dark emotion connect with an audience. My guess is that's the exception rather than the rule.

Stopping now before I start using worse words than oodles.

NOTE TO THE ENLIGHTEN WHO ONLY SEE THINGS THEIR WAY.

You do not represent EVERYONE, just yourself, there are others who DO NOT agree with you thoughts or beliefs.

You are entitled to yours, I'm entitled to mine & WE both are the PDGA.

Bad boys appeal to some of us & I know that pains you to the core, but that's what makes AMERICA great.

so
The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests; we did. But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few sick, perverted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg! Isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do what you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you bad-mouth the United States of America! Gentlemen!



PEACE OUT ROG

Iqbal runs Cam's online website so there lies his undying devotion to Cam. If Cam gets suspended then there is a loss of income, thus taking money out of Iqbal's pocket.

This isn't the first incident involving Cam, merely the latest. "but he does this for a living and it will take income from him" This has to be the absolute lamest excuse I've ever heard. Your occupation is your choice and lest I'm mistaken this is not a communist society and we are free to choose where we're employed. That being said, if Cam had a normal job and pulled this crap with a customer, business partner or vendor he'd be happy to get off with a mere 4 month suspension.

Anyone who trully wants to see this sport grow can not in good faith come on here and defend him. These tirades do nothing but drive away those who suppoort the sport. Watch what will happen if and when he gets away with this. TD's and the volunteers who bring you the tournaments will disappear. I sure as hell don't want to VOLUNTEER hundreds of hours of my life trying to make something good happen only to have one person with emotional control problems ruin it.

When all the good ones are gone who's gonna take over? mikeynoclue, Jason IneedaSWIFTkickintheass and Notorius Idiot? Gimme a break. When that day comes it's time to take up another sport...full contact oragami maybe??

NOTE TO THE ENLIGHTEN WHO ONLY SEE THINGS THEIR WAY.



Well, that's a self-contradictory statement. You can't enlighten someone who only sees things his way. But that's moot, because you're not describing me (and I'm not sure why you think you are).


You do not represent EVERYONE, just yourself, there are others who DO NOT agree with you thoughts or beliefs.



Well, duh. Do I have to append a disclaimer to that effect in every post? I haven't noticed that in others.


You are entitled to yours,



Yes.


I'm entitled to mine



Yes.


& WE both are the PDGA.



Well, no. Not yet, at least. I'm thinking about it, though... just started playing a few months ago, and the 9/1 date has just passed for getting a new year's subscription.


Bad boys appeal to some of us



That's my understanding, too.


& I know that pains you to the core,



Does it? I'm not even sure where my core is, but I know it doesn't hurt, because I'm not hurting anywhere. I'm feeling pretty healthy right now, in fact. (Pausing to knock on wood.)


but that's what makes AMERICA great.



What, my imagined "pain to the core" makes America great? I had no idea America was so sadistic.

No, I understand, differences of opinion make America great. Well, that sounds right to me, too.

I was talking about getting and keeping sponsors, though, not whether or not some people like bad behavior. Sponsors usually need someone who not only entertains a lot of people, but also doesn't offend too many people. I think if someone demonstrates a bad temper and doesn't having anything else to compensate for that, then that person will have trouble getting or keeping a sponsor. If all you bring to the table is a bad temper, you may have fans who appreciate your openness and candor and your passion for the sport, but a sponsor really likes it if your not hated by anyone who spends money in their stores. That's because if those people walk in and see a name on a disc they don't like, they may not buy the disc. I didn't say that person would have no fans at all.


so
The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests; we did. But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few sick, perverted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg! Isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do what you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you bad-mouth the United States of America! Gentlemen!



Took me a few seconds to recognize the Animal House quote! But I don't understand its relevance. I ain't dean o' nuttin'. Like you said, just voicing my opinion, which I understand is what this discussion board is for.

The reference is for anyone who cheered for the bad guys, did you cheer for the Animal House bad guys or Nedemeyer & Dean Wormer? The parallels are there folks.

I have yet to name call or blast your opinions of what is right & fair or good for DG, just noted that there are some who disagree... So name call and attack away, small minded Fools you are only proving my points....

So let it be known that Cam & his supporters are probably all on double secret probation. Rock the Vote!

NOTE TO THE ENLIGHTEN <font color="red">WHO ONLY SEE THINGS THEIR WAY</font>.




Bad boys appeal to some of us & <font color="red">I know that pains you to the core,</font> but that's what makes AMERICA great.




I have yet to name call or blast your opinions of what is right & fair or good for DG, just noted that there are some who disagree... So name call and attack away, <font color="red">small minded Fools</font> you are only proving my points....



Seriously? No name calling? No blasting someone else's opinion?

How about giving memberships away as a mandatory prize at every sanctioned event. What did Guru say 547 events this year? It's not doubling the membership - but it also takes zero work.

In days of yore, RADL gave PDGA memberships to winners of monthlies. (If memory serves, Walter Haney (#6001) and Kirk Yoo (#6161) became members in that way. It is possible, and perhaps even likely, that both would have joined eventually anyway, but it's also possible that both joined significantly earlier than they would have otherwise.) Not sure when or why RADL stopped.

If the goal is to gain new members, it should probably be stipulated that the membership prize(s) passes down to the highest-finishing non-member(s) or non-current (2 year min.) member(s).

The reference is for anyone who cheered for the bad guys, did you cheer for the Animal House bad guys or Nedemeyer & Dean Wormer? The parallels are there folks.



I thought Nedemeyer and the dean were the bad guys. Especially in the temper department. And the bad guys lost everything. Guess that's another reason I'm missing the parallel.

They (Wormer or PDGA) applied rules to Otter & company (Cam) differently than to other Fraternities (Rico, Ken, Barry etc.) and did it behind closed doors for their own Truth's! But this is just an idiots opinion, I dare say!

I can sum up my views with a couple of quotes
LOVE THE SINNER HATE THE SIN!
WE ARE ALL SINNERS!
Thou shalt not judge but that ye be judged.

Cam is a great disc golfer, I challenge anyone who thinks otherwise, so be fair, be nice & I hope the next poster has an audience as nice as you were tonight. Don & Mike rule the airways let Cam rule the fairways.

You could only take offense to my words if you are doing the things I critized, so if you do, I'm still right, I pointed out your flaws, didn't call you names! Well not until I refered to the small minded fools, Why are you one of them?

How about all of you stop wasting your time debating it...let cam appeal and see what happens

The 20 member petition is a great way to work with the situation. i.e. see Huffman...

You do offend me by implying through association that elected officers of the PDGA have a secret agenda focused on getting Cam thrown off campus.

I am also offended that I am berated for having the opinion that guests at an organized public event are expected to conduct themselves in a civil and dignified manner.

I hear what you are saying and can see how you've received a great return on your $40 membership and if I were you I would have done the samething. The difference is I do not have any intentions of playing in any PDGA events this year let alone 8 so I could justify the $40. The other difference is I have not been educated by someone like you as to the other benefits of being a PDGA member. All I knew up until now was if I ever wanted to play in a PDGA event I'd need to become a member and pay the fee to get my number. What would probably sell me on a membership is the magazine you are talking about. I can't get enough information on disc golf for when I'm not on the course.

You ask the question of why wouldn't players buy a membership when they will buy 4 - $10 discs over the course of a year. That's easy. They will use the 4 discs everytime they go out on the course but they may not use the membership # for a single PDGA event.

I'd like to make one more point. If up until now I have not seen the value/benefit of getting a PDGA membership for which I would have little trouble paying for what do you think it is like for a teenager or younger adult just starting out? I would think they would be more reluctant to fork out $40. Now if they plan on playing a number of PDGA events I'm sure they'll find a way to come up with the cash.

Don't sell me a membership. Sell me the benefits of having a membership.

Thank you chainiac! Very nicely said, and I agree 100% with you.

Well, if all you want is a magazine....

http://www.discgolfmag.com/

where is the link to the suspended players at?

http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary_actions.php

thank you. Look at all them trouble makers in TEXAS :D

don't mess with texas!!!!! :cool::cool::cool:

I did not see steve rico's name?????

thank you. Look at all them trouble makers in TEXAS :D


What did all the Texas guys do?

By appealing the suspension/decision of the disciplinary committee, Cam Todd is, in essence, saying:

1) All PDGA players bully other people at sanctioned events.
2) All PDGA players disrespect TDs.
3) All PDGA players have emotional outbursts that negatively effect other humans.
4) All PDGA players have a right to openly yell at volunteers in front of sponsors.

By appealing the decision, Cam is saying that he did nothing wrong. That his behavior is not only acceptable but expected. Cam is saying that he is undeserving of any sort of reprimand because he did nothing outside of the scope of acceptable/expected behavior. Cam is saying that he is being singled out for no good reason.

I take issue with this as I have witnissed more than one of Cam's "outbursts" during my weekend warrior PDGA tour over 2003 and 2004 and I find his behavior in certain instances to be not only unacceptable, but also not behavior/attributes that I would like to be associated with personally.

I understand the argument of equal treatment being necessary for all offenders, but that equal treatment can start now - with this precedence and from the "Cam suspension forward" be applied equally in all future cases. Inequity in the past is not a reason to allow this type of behavior to go un-realized IMO.

Nobody likes to be the example, but what an example to set and hold!

Disclaimer: I like Cam as a person.

These thoughts lead me to the following questions: Why does all of this controversy follow Cam? Why does Cam feel people are "out to get" him? Is Cam being singled out because he is behaving like all the other PDGA players out there attending tournaments?

The Texas trouble makers got in trouble for misplaying the course during sanctioned play and not notifying the TD until after the event. that was the 3 guys that got the same penalty. I beleive one was smoking the GOOD herb and another was drinking at World DUBS

No matter who somebody is, what they stand for, whatever their intentions are...there is somebody waiting/wanting to kick them in the teeth.
This DISCussion Board is living proof...and is **** entertaining!!

I'm sure the appeal was made so that he can continue to cash in tournaments (maybe USDGC) and then ride out the suspension when a majority of the country is enjoying a tournament free winter.

:o

I'm not sure but i think cam plays disc golf for a living and to take that away from him is unfair



It would be a privlidge to play disc golf for a living - not a right. Play by the rules or don't play.

Why should disc golf sets their sights so low as to emulate the "crybaby ethic/I'm never responsible for my errors" prevalent in other sports? Why not let it be known that in disc golf, professionalism means something different than it does in other popular sports? We can set the bar at any level.

Just food for thought. ;)

I see it more of a choice, not a privilege. Privilege should not cost anything, playing in pdga does however. With membership comes acceptance and agreement to follow rules and regulations. Although this is the point of controversy surrounding violations of the rules, it must also be addressed that pdga has responsabilities for tournaments in lieu of the collected membership fees and tournament entry fees. Thus said, one should follow the rules, but should be privilege to a good tournament where rules are enforced without bias, based on paying for it!

Good point. You don't see this in ball golf.

I'm sure the appeal was made so that he can continue to cash in tournaments (maybe USDGC) and then ride out the suspension when a majority of the country is enjoying a tournament free winter.


I also see that and think it's crap. Isn't an appeal something that is made after the verdict is over? Why wouldn't the suspension stand during appeal?

Innocent until proven beyond a reasonable doubt comes to mind.

I'm not sure but i think cam plays disc golf for a living and to take that away from him is unfair.



Just out of curiousity, Don't Brian Scweberger, Kevin McCoy, Des Reading and Julianna also do this for a living?
Why do they seem to be able to do it with style and grace?
Think they ever get upset at something that may happen at a tournament? Pretty sure they have. Then why don't we hear about thier tirades here?

Ummm...We all know he isn't completely innocent or he wouldn't be on the Disciplinary Page. So the suspension isn't real? These are just charges against Cam in the PDGA Court? Again, I thought you could only appeal to something after the decision was made.

Each person is their own individual. Different coping skills, different environmental factors within their ecology, and past bases of experiences that shape or mold behavior. To compare each disc golfer to one another is completely out of line, as they are simply different.

There are several things in this thread, and others that are typical and a recurring downfall of our group in general.

The first thing that needs to be pointed out is this, this is not the first time that some of the touring players have gone into your town and showed their arse. It will not be the last. It has gone on and will continue to go on as long as the reaction stays the same. You may be wondering what the reaction is???... it is nothing. That's right it is nothing, do nothing, say nothing, and nothing will happen.

This means that it is up to you to stop the BS that has lead to this again. It is no secret that Cam is a very disruptive person when wants to be, and he has found that he can get away with acting that way because not more than a few players have shown they would not put up with that kind of behavior. So many of the players have acted in an inappropriate manner and nothing has happened beyond a bit of parking lot complaint and then it all gets swept away. So they continue to act as they please because the rest of the players allow them to get away with it (you are the rest of the players).

The action that you all call for has to start with you. The PDGA can not step in because they heard a rumor from Waco or BHMO or somewhere else, where was that?....... They respond to you and your complaints. But you have to do some work and write a letter and file a complaint and by that time you may have had a couple of beers and fellowship with your friends after the rounds and then........it doesn't seem so bad now, I'll just let it slide it will be ok. That is the road block. These actions have continued not because of the lack of action on the part of the PDGA, it is because most of us want to say "I don't want to be a richard.... and stop him from being a richard".

The next inherent problem with most if not all of us is that we hear a story from one person and jump quickly to thoughts that are based on a perception of having all the facts. But all you have to do is read some, or even all of the posts on this thread and you can find out for yourself that Iqbal has only been told one side of the story. This goes on all of the time in this sport, from the course parking lot to this forum there has been countless sessions of Kangaroo Court to convict or pardon all of our little black sheep hero's. Then later all of the facts are laid on the table and everyone goes back to the other thread that they hang out on very quickly without a word. Many of the people who jump into the ring on these things have never read the rule book let alone know those rules well enough to discuss them in a factual manner. I will admit that I have never read the PDGA constitution, but I read the rule book every year so I know when I am playing with someone who hasn't.

Please give it a rest and get your facts together before you open your mouths again. Those of you step up and say the things that you do and you don't even do half of your home work are really amazing, and you want to represent some or even all of us???? Good luck, I would love to be a fly on the wall as you eyes are opened to the facts as they are not as you perceive them.

We are in a time of growth and with that comes pains and turmoil's that will seam stupid, maybe tough, or redundant. We have to go through that, learn the lessons and them move forward from there. We can not move to the levels in all of our dreams until we pay our dues and this is part of that.

The final thing is that everyone has to realize is this, it takes time for all of this. The decisions on punishment take time just like the decisions on the schedule layout for the year. Progress in the functioning of the process of the PDGA board improves each time as does the operation of a tournament from year to year. None of the solutions we are all looking for will be delivered with UPS Saturday service so you can all think it over this weekend. It will take time, and it will always seem too long, but that is how long it takes.

Brian you are one of the good guys. Hope to see you sometime this year. :D

Brian, there you go bringing sense, logic, and intelligence into this discussion....


Thanks. :)

Again, I thought you could only appeal to something after the decision was made.


uhh.. A decision was made. The PDGA disciplinary committee handed down their ruling, and a 4 month suspension was invoked. After that, Cam appealed.

Actually... (one more time for those following along at home) ;)

804.05 C. A player in violation of any section under 804.05 A is also subject to suspension from the PDGA Tour. Suspension from the PDGA Tour may only be assigned by the PDGA Commissioner. A player may appeal his or her suspension to the PDGA Board of Directors. The determination to suspend, and the length of the suspension, shall be based on the severity of the action and the extent to which the player may have committed repeated violations.

Could that remotely be considered punishment??

Are you saying that because of these factors that he is not responsible for his behavior? Please tell me this isn't your point.

The above is directed to Polish Power, given his response to the question of why other pros don't behave the way Cam is reported to have behaved.

September 3, 2004

To: PDGA Board of Directors; Disciplinary Committee
From: Kelley Southwick; CO-TD Marshall Street Disc Golf World Championship; Former NEFA President

Dear PDGA;

I would to write to you about Cameron Todd; a PDGA professional recently placed on suspension that played at our msdgc tournament this past week. Cam not only competed in the msdgc; he camped on our property for the duration of the tournament. Rarely have I met a touring pro with such graciousness. Cam not only helped us in the preliminary check-in and the after tournament clean-up but also stayed long after awards to help with a review of course design and plans for the msdgc 2005. The entire time he was here he was a consummate professional. He acted as a role model to other players; encouraging and teaching; always positive. He helped us as TDs to improve and fine-tune details to make the tournament the best ever. His presence was a true enhancement to the entire event. His speech at awards was brilliant and inspiring. His sportsmanship and attitude was exemplary. He helped me as a Co-Td and organizer to run the most successful event ever in New England�and did not even mind staying an extra day to help us plan for next year and make improvements to our courses.

His decorum, language, behavior and etiquette was always well above par. I was so glad to meet him and get to know him�his help and contribution was invaluable. I hope you will weigh my words and reconsider his suspension. Here in New England we view Cameron Todd as a role model of how a touring pro should behave. His presence truly enhanced out tournament.

Thank you for our consideration

Best Regards in Disc,

Kelley O Southwick
NEFA/MSDGC

Thanks Brian for your thoughts on this. I met Cam once and he was cool to me. As far as all of us being more responsible , you are correct. Myself Included because I also didn't want to be , as you call it , a richard. I have alot of cool people I enjoy playing rounds with and it really is up to EACH player to show respect for the sport and the players playing.
I don't have any information what really happend to Cam , so I will not make any statements.

I hope things work out for the best.

A Quick phrase by :
Woodrow Wilson
I would rather lose in a cause that will some day win, than win in a cause that will some day lose.

Again, I thought you could only appeal to something after the decision was made.


uhh.. A decision was made. The PDGA disciplinary committee handed down their ruling, and a 4 month suspension was invoked. After that, Cam appealed.



If a 4 month suspension was invoked than why can he still play tournaments? Am I wrong?

While under appeal the suspension is put on hold pending the outcome of the appeal process... Not to take sides but just because someone files an appeal doesnt mean he thinks what he did was alright.

Its like getting a speeding ticket. You should always plead not guilty and go through the courts because you always in most cases get less of a fine/points/punishment by going through that process. Sometimes you can even get the fine dropped. Just a thought.

Its like getting a speeding ticket. You should always plead not guilty and go through the courts because you always in most cases get less of a fine/points/punishment by going through that process. Sometimes you can even get the fine dropped. Just a thought.



Really? I thought this added more court costs to your fine if you were found guilty.

We've got a Prayer for Judgment Continued process here in NC that, if the judge grants it, keep the points off your license as long as you don't speed again in the next 3 years. But you still have to pay the fine.

Here in wisconsin you are given a pretrial with the DA and most of the time you get your points dropped lower or the ticket is changed to a nonmoving (no points) violation. You can also take a traffic class to get the points back. In county courts the fines cannot be changed but in city, and villages the fines can be lowered, and dropped. The only way its goign to add more court costs if you dont take the plea deal that the district attorney works out with you.

shown promise? Where are the RESULTS?




Hey Roger,

I thought I would give you a little perspective on what I mean by shown promise.

First, my background so you can see why I feel I can judge what the BOD, Brian and Lorrie are doing. I am a technology liaison. That means I implement technological change at the company where I work (a small insurance company). The first project I was given was to implement a scanning system. Insurance companies are all about paper. We have 500 million pieces of paper and generate over 20,000 new pieces every week. To get that material scanned I had to implement two projects, one to scan all the old paper and one to scan all the new incoming paper. I had to find a scanning package, and equipment; hire or recruit technicians, train them; design and implement procedures to get the paper prepped and scanned; set up backups for if we had a system crash; produce a budget and convince the executive committee to accept that budget and the project; and then convince 150 people they should do this; train them to do it; and finally do it.

Hopefully, I�ve managed to convey, in my own inept way, the complexity of doing something like this. Now lets look at what the PDGA does. This organization, run by two people and a handful of volunteers, sets up all the structure to maintain a profession sports organization. They track all the players, their scores and ratings and keep them informed about the rules and all events that occur. They do this on an international scale communicating around the world. They have built a National Tour out of the most prestigious events in the country giving the TDs of those events backing and logistical support. If I read the minutes of their meetings correctly they are generating enough revenue to help support the purses of those events (Keep in mind, they don't make money out of this, anything extra and there hasn't been a lot of that, they feed back into the organization.). They evaluate nationwide sites for the Worlds, and help local organizations carry out the event by providing logistical support. They have structured ratings and rules that are being pushed at major events by marshal�s (another program they have set up) so as to give our sport credibility making it possible for local TDs to raise money for their events. This also has the desired effect of making things fair for all players.

Remember also that in many states what we do is considered gambling; The PDGA maintains a structure that allows us to compete worldwide without running afoul of the law. On top of this they pay taxes and keep track of all of our legal information that keeps the PDGA running as a legal and out of dept organization.

Finally, they listen to players and TDs and do their best to modify our rules structure and competitive structure according to our desires and they actually do a pretty good job of it, sometimes at the loss of time with their own families and lives.

I hope you are starting to understand that what these two full time employees and several volunteers do is run an incredibly complex company and they do so very well and for relatively little compensation. At 2003 Worlds, Brian got entry into the DG Hall of Fame; most CEOs get huge bonuses and don't get yelled at.

That's what I mean when I say these guys are doing a phenomenal job.

What I mean when I say they are showing promise. Well, lets see, all that work they've put in has resulted in credibility. That credibility has shown up as publications in Forbes and other highly credible magazines and newspapers. That recognition is what brings in sponsorships. Businesses don't much care about organizations with 20,000 members, 8,000 active, but they care when you have a write up in Forbes. I've seen sponsorships from Coke, Clark Bar, Dairy Queen, Red Bull, Gallery Furniture, Budweiser, and other major manufacturers. You might think that comes easy but it requires the reputation and structure put in place by the PDGA (along with a huge amount of work by local TDs and volunteers). And if you think this stuff happens over night remember that it took baseball 50 or 60 years before they went pro. If took football the same. The PDGA did it in 20 under a much more complex legal system with many more sports and entertainment venues to compete against. That's what I mean when I say they've shown promise.

Let me return to my own experience. What I do at my company is complex and difficult, what the PDGA past and present is doing makes my job look easy. I respect what they've done because I have perspective on it. I hope this gives you some perspective on it also. As a final point. Nobody who does something this complex does it perfectly. If that is your measure, these guys are going to fail. On the other hand, my experience is that very few do it anywhere nearly as well.

ok heres a question to all you rule junkies out there.....say Cam DOES get suspended for 4 months or whatever. After his four months which would be sometime next year/season, what would happen if he DIDNT renew his PDGA membership, would he then be allowed to play in events as long as he paid the 5 dollar fee?

ok heres a question to all you rule junkies out there.....say Cam DOES get suspended for 4 months or whatever. After his four months which would be sometime next year/season, what would happen if he DIDNT renew his PDGA membership, would he then be allowed to play in events as long as he paid the 5 dollar fee?

Only if he wants to risk a significantly longer suspension and/or possible expulsion from the PDGA. [Note: a suspended player could, of course, attempt to compete under a false name, povided (s)he were willing to run the risk of being recognized.]

A suspension remains in effect, whether or not the player's membership is current.

In response to a situation in which a suspended player whose membership was not current competed in a PDGA-sanctioned tournament, the Discipline Committee, Commissioner, and BOD established by precedent a policy whereby a member, whether active or non-active, who attempts to evade a suspension is subject to further disciplinary action. Furthermore, a TD who knowingly permits a suspended player, whether active or non-active, to compete in a sanctioned tournament�and there is no excuse for not knowing since the PDGA Office mails TDs lists of members currently under suspension prior to their tournaments�are subject to disciplinary action. See the thread To all the PDGA Board Members, Competition Committee Members, Discipline Committee Members, PDGA Administrator and PDGA Commissioner (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=33178&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1), particularly the post by Terry Calhoun (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Other%20PDGA%20Topics&Number=33471&Searchpage=0&Main=33178&Search=true&#Post33471), for details.

ok heres a question to all you rule junkies out there.....say Cam DOES get suspended for 4 months or whatever. After his four months which would be sometime next year/season, what would happen if he DIDNT renew his PDGA membership, would he then be allowed to play in events as long as he paid the 5 dollar fee?



Sure he could play in B-tier and below for a $5 fee per event after his suspension. He could not play in a Super Tour (A-tier) or National Tour (NT) event without a current PDGA membership. :)

Remember also that in many states what we do is considered gambling; The PDGA maintains a structure that allows us to compete worldwide without running afoul of the law.



drifting here slightly but, no. competing in a disc golf tournament is not gambling. not here there or anywhere. likewise, competing in a ball golf tournament is not gambling either.

stroke play, match play, doubles , singles, team play where you are competing against others in your division is not gambling.

the pdga has nothing to do with the gambling nature of competition, and does not keep us from "running afoul of the law".

a non-pdga sanctioned event is just as law abiding a competition as a sanctioned event.

[/QUOTE]
And if you think this stuff happens over night remember that it took baseball 50 or 60 years before they went pro. If took football the same.

[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree with your post. However, I wanted to get some facts straight.

Baseball rules first set down - 1845
First Professional Team - Cinncinnati Red Stockings - 1869
First Professional League - National Association - 1871

First Football rules - 1867
First Football game - 1869
First Professional Football game in the US - 1895 (town teams)
First Professional League - 1920

For football you could make the argument because the formation of the first league was 51 years after the first game. However, the first players were paid by 1895 - only 26 years.

Keep in mind that we would barely recognize that 1869 game as football - it was much closer to rugby than American football.
In 1879 the number of players was reduced to 11 and the field size was settled. In 1882 the system of downs was introduced.(At first it was 3 downs and 5 yards! In 1906 it was changed to 10 yards and in 1912, the 4th down was added) Before 1888, tackling below the waist was forbidden. So, the question is, when did football really start?

For baseball, the argument doesn't hold any water. The first professional league was founded only 26 years after the beginning of baseball. The first players to be officially paid came only 24 years after the founding. However, players were being paid under the table before 1869.

Again, no disagreement with the main point of the post. The PDGA guys have a lot to do. Just wanted to get a few facts straight.

drifting here slightly but, no. competing in a disc golf tournament is not gambling. not here there or anywhere. likewise, competing in a ball golf tournament is not gambling either.

Are you a lawyer enrolled at a state bar in the US, and have you researched federal, state, and provincial gambling laws, to know that competing for purses consisting of players' monies does not constitute gambling in every jurisdiction in the US and Canada, or is that just your opinion, based on your personal definition of "gambling"?

The fact is that in many states, disc golf tournaments DO fall under the definition of gambling. To cite a few examples:

Arizona Revised Statute 13-3301. Definitions
4. Gambling" or "gamble" means one act of <font color="red">risking or giving something of value for the opportunity to obtain a benefit from a game or contest of chance or skill</font> or a future contingent event but does not include bona fide business transactions which are valid under the law of contracts including contracts for the purchase or sale at a future date of securities or commodities, contracts of indemnity or guarantee and life, health or accident insurance.



Michigan Gaming Control and Revenue Act
750.301 Accepting money or valuable thing contingent on uncertain event.

Any person or his or her agent or employee who, directly or indirectly, takes, receives, or accepts from any person any money or valuable thing with the agreement, understanding or allegation that any money or valuable thing will be paid or delivered to any person where <font color="red">the payment or delivery is alleged to be or will be contingent upon the result of any race, contest, or game</font> or upon the happening of any event not known by the parties to be certain, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $1,000.00.



Florida Statute 849. Gambling
849.14 Unlawful to bet on result of trial or contest of skill, etc.--Whoever <font color="red">stakes</font>, bets or wagers <font color="red">any money or other thing of value upon the result of any trial or contest of skill, speed or power or endurance of human or beast</font>, or whoever receives in any manner whatsoever any money or other thing of value staked, bet or wagered, or offered for the purpose of being staked, bet or wagered, by or for any other person upon any such result, or whoever knowingly becomes the custodian or depositary of any money or other thing of value so staked, bet, or wagered upon any such result, or whoever aids, or assists, or abets in any manner in any of such acts all of which are hereby forbidden, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.



California Penal Code, sec. 337
Every person
4. Who, whether for gain, hire, reward, or gratuitously, or otherwise, at any time or place, records, or registers any bet or bets, wager or wagers, upon the result, or purported result, of any trial, or purported trial, or <font color="red">contest, or purported contest, of skill, speed or power of endurance of man or beast</font>, or between men, beasts, or mechanical apparatus, or upon the result, or purported result, of any lot, chance, casualty, unknown or contingent event whatsoever;

is punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than one year or in the state prison.

Are you lawyer? I have studied business law & work for an attorney who used to handle the Microsoft account no less, and I'm NO expert by any means,

but aren't those laws (Florida & California) for betting on Cam Todd to win an event, not entering a contest with entry fees to have the opportunity to earn a cash prize in the end.....

Because if you were indeed right, there would be no bowling leagues, car racing, golfing, etc. allowed to provide cash prizes for contestants in those states, cuz it would be GAMBLING. But all those activities are happening in those states with cash prizes?

Are you sure your interpretation is right?

Because if you were indeed right, there would be no bowling leagues, car racing, golfing, etc. allowed to provide cash prizes for contestants in those states, cuz it would be GAMBLING. But all those activities are happening in those states with cash prizes?

Are you sure your interpretation is right?



Just because its not enforced, doesn't mean it isn't right. "Foot fault!" /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

actually, i'm an Enrolled Agent and since there are probably all of two people that frequent this board that understand what that means i'll share that i'm enrolled to practice before the Internal Revenue Service.

In laymans terms , that means i am as qualified to discuss gambling and the nature of gambling before the people that are there to collect monies from gambling as anyone. if any of you were gambling by "competing" in a disc golf tournament you can bet you would be receiving w-2 g's instead of potentially receiving 1099's.

i also prepare income tax returns for professional athletes who ply their trades in various sports from bowling and disc golf to sailing.

have you ever sat across from an irs agent at an audit?
i have, over 500 times. next time you meet an irs agent, ask them why they haven't taken the Enrolled Agent exam and gone into private practice. most of the time the response i've heard from them is akin to "i'm not that familiar with the tax code yet" or something to that effect.

i think i am qualified to make that statement.

Are you lawyer?

No, but I know where to find the experts and how to avail myself of their expertise.


but aren't those laws (Florida & California) for betting on Cam Todd to win an event, not entering a contest with entry fees to have the opportunity to earn a cash prize in the end.....

Depends on the state. Some states prohibit wagering on both one's self and on third parties, others prohibit only wagering on third parties. In the specific cases of FL and CA, there is no question that the pool format is contrary to the statute (see below).


Because if you were indeed right, there would be no bowling leagues, car racing, golfing, etc. allowed to provide cash prizes for contestants in those states, cuz it would be GAMBLING. But all those activities are happening in those states with cash prizes

The Michigan and Florida statutes contain paragraphs that specifically exempt bowling tournaments. Most states exempt particular, named sporting contests within the language of the statute.


Are you sure your interpretation is right?

Yes. The Fl, AZ, CA, and MI statutes can be found on-line on the individual state government's websites. In the case of AZ and CA, the gambling statutes are also explicated in FAQs on the AG websites. In the case of FL, the issue came up in an earlier thread. The relevant post is here (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Other%20PDGA%20Topics&Number=33318&Searchpage=0&Main=33178&Search=true&#Post33318).

if any of you were gambling by "competing" in a disc golf tournament you can bet you would be receiving w-2 g's instead of potentially receiving 1099's.

What the IRS deems gambling and the various states deem to be gambling are not necessarily commensurate, so you err in defining "gambling" primarily, if not entirely, in terms of the IRS's definition of "gambling" rather than in terms of the various criminal and statutory definitions of "gambling." For some reason, I doubt that a judge is going to dismiss the charges against Corey Fuller (Baltimore Ravens' DB) for running a private, high-stakes poker tournament among his friends, because he wasn't issuing w2-gs. :D

if any of you were gambling by "competing" in a disc golf tournament you can bet you would be receiving w-2 g's instead of potentially receiving 1099's.

What the IRS deems gambling and the various states deem to be gambling are not necessarily commensurate, so you err in defining "gambling" primarily, if not entirely, in terms of the IRS's definition of "gambling" rather than in terms of the various criminal and statutory definitions of "gambling." For some reason, I doubt that a judge is going to dismiss the charges against Corey Fuller (Baltimore Ravens' DB) for running a private, high-stakes poker tournament among his friends, because he wasn't issuing w2-gs. :D



were they playing in a disc golf tournament in between hands of hold em? if not, what does that have to do with anything i said about competing in a disc golf tournament being gambling?

you will not find one single instance, anywhere in the united states , where competing in a disc golf tournament against others in your division is gambling. you can certainly try. here, i'll help...

betting on a player during a ring of fire? gambling? YES
betting on a players finishing position in a tournament? gambling? YES.
betting on yourself to finish in a particular position at a tournament? gambling? YES

paying a stated entry fee, participating in a tournament against others that have done the same? gambling? NO.

you will not find a single instance where state statute conflicts with federal on this.

look man , my father is an attorney who just won a case before the california supreme court and my mother is an attorney named as one of michigans top ten attorneys. i'm not just throwing this out to be confrontational and i'm certainly not trolling.

my clients pay me $200 per hour for tax consultations, thank you for allowing me to advertise my valuable services here.

were they playing in a disc golf tournament in between hands of hold em? if not, what does that have to do with anything i said about competing in a disc golf tournament being gambling?

The point is that that the MD statute prohibits the sort of thing Corey Fuller was doing while other states permit it as a form of "social" or "amusement gambling." Therefore, one cannot generalize for the entire US whether or not a particular activity is or is not gambling based on what is or is not permissible in one, or even multiple, states.


you will not find one single instance, anywhere in the united states , where competing in a disc golf tournament against others in your division is gambling.

According to Bruce Brakel's prosecutor friend in FL (see link in earlier post), the pooled money system absolutely IS considered gambling under the FL statute. The fact that the bowling industry in FL had a specific exemption written into the FL statute to allow "participation in or the conduct of a bowling tournament conducted at a bowling center which requires the payment of entry fees, from which fees the winner receives a purse or prize" (http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=CH0849/Sec141.HTM) supports that interpretation. (Note: the Michigan statute also contains a specific exemption for bowling tournaments (Act 328, �750.310a Applicability of chapter; bowling game or bowling card game (http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-750-310a&highlight=gambling)).)


look man , my father is an attorney who just won a case before the california supreme court and my mother is an attorney named as one of michigans top ten attorneys. i'm not just throwing this out to be confrontational and i'm certainly not trolling.

Then perhaps you can do the PDGA and the rest of us a favor and ask your parents whether the system of pooling competitors' monies to make up the purse is or could be construed as gambling under the CA and MI statutes.

Bruce Brakel's prosecuter friend in FL says that under FL law it absolutely is. The Consumer FAQ on the AZ AG website strongly suggests it is. Jon Brakel's research into the MI statute suggests that it is (see up-thread in the thread linked in my earlier post).

i can, and have. have also spoken at length with revenue agents at both the federal and state levels regarding this very topic since a good deal of my work comes from state depts of revenue and taxation , not just federal. at last count i had prepared state tax returns for 39 of the 43 or so states that assess a tax on income (florida for example has no state tax but does have an intangibles tax that individuals still need to prepare and file if required)

apparently this topic will require a thread of its own and i am happy to contribute what i can to that thread.

i am sure that you are aware that asking an attorney for a legal opinion is similar to asking a home appraiser how much your house is worth, are you buying it or selling it? no attorney is going to sign their name to anything until they have exhausted all possible arguments against (or for, depending of course on who is paying their fee).

attornies will also tell you that laws stay on the books until specific challenges to them cause them to be amended, revoked etc. this has resulted in some very well publicized laws such as not striking your wife with a stick any larger than your thumb, not walking a pig down main st on a sunday etc. for whatever reason, "gambling" is held near and dear to the chests of our more conservative lawmakers in order to prevent us from being fleeced by unscrupulous gambling houses, back room poker games and most importantly, to prevent gambling monies from being unaccounted for and ultimately un-taxed.

the argument i began with, and have had many discussions with attornies and revenue agents, is that paying an entry fee to compete against other people in your division does not fit state or federal requirements to be classified as gambling. why hasn't florida or michigan or any other state for that matter cracked down on these "illegal gambling disc golf tournaments"? many arguments can be made , one of the most important imo is that if they did, they would not successfully argue their case against us and would then have to modify currently existing laws which would then cause a sort of domino effect weakening their grips on our activities and pocketbooks. on a side note, it is possible in michigan to have a completely legal poker night in your house, FOR MONEY, as long as the "house" does not collect a fee for the "service".

so, why is there a specific mention of bowling in the statutes and not dg? is there a difference in paying a fee to enter a bowling tournament in order to use your bowling SKILL to EARN a cash prize and paying a fee to enter a dg tournament in order to use your dg skill to earn a cash prize? no, attornies for the state and fed know this, revenue agents know this and probably all of three bowlers in the world know that this exemption exists.

no one that has the intent to make a profit playing dg tournaments in florida michigan or any other state is going to be arrested for gambling (provided of course they arent wagering on themselves or others blah blah blah) they aren't going to face legal repurcussions, they aren't going to be limited to deducting "gambling" losses up to the amount of their "gambling" winnings etc. they may face tax evasion charges for not reporting , they may suffer for not reporting their expenses in the correct amounts on a SCH C where they belong therefore offsetting their EARNINGS and potentially claiming a loss which can be used to offset other earned income they report on their 1040 amongst other things.

before this becomes the additional thread that this topic may require , (might i suggest we start it in the "soon to fall asleep" index because apart from you and me fore, that will be the end result of any average golfer reading this) , let me sum up my stance from revenue agents around the country and directly from the irs...

pay an entry fee to enter , use your dg skillz to play, then cash, and you have EARNINGS.

pay to pull a slot machine , flip a card, roll dice etc and you have
WINNINGS.

no matter how much we try, we can never earn money by placing wagers in casinos. we may win occassionally, even though every time we "win" the house takes their percentage before we get our winnings. we can , however, practice our dg skills and apply them to competition formats and "earn" monies that will of course be reported and taxed. after all , that's all the state and fed wants anyway.

if the intent is to argue that dg "can be argued to be gambling" then i can't, and won't help.

if the intent is to demonstrate that dg tournaments require skills that have been earned, the monies are earned etc, i'll be glad to help.
imo, one of the first and best things to do at this point would be to find a dg attorney in each state that would work pro-bono towards having dg added the same way bowling has been. the other options are to pay large retainers to a non-dg'ing attorney to have them do it, or...

just continue playing in tournaments and earning money and reporting it on your tax return because you do not fit the intent of the gambling laws when you play.

avg_Joe,

I don't know if it makes any difference to you, but the point I took from other threads on this subject is the thing that makes it illegal according to some state laws, is that the prize money is almost exclusive funded by the pooled entry fees.

If I ran a tournament, and announced ahead of time that the payout would be $100 for first, $75 for 2nd, and $50 for 3rd, that'd different than running a tournamnet and announcing that "top 1/3 of the field will be paid, and total pay out will be whatever is paid in minus expenses".

The other thing I got from those threads is that running the tournament in the pooled entry fee format is what will get you in trouble, not participating in them.

In this field of thought, can you deduct your entry fee and other expenses (motel, meals, mileage, golf discs etc.) If you must report earnings, can these be considered as losses?

before this becomes the additional thread that this topic may require , (might i suggest we start it in the "soon to fall asleep" index because apart from you and me fore, that will be the end result of any average golfer reading this)...


I disagree with that sentiment because I believe this is an important issue that needs to be put to bed. The Brakel's believe we are at risk on this issue and you believe we are not. I do not want to be "a believer", but instead would hope that we could form a PDGA committee to investigate this issue and figure out "what really is".

And yes I am willing to serve on that committee. I am not a lawyer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I do believe this is important and should be addressed. I think it would be better to know if we are legal or not instead of hoping that we are.

pooled monies means a lot of different things, for example we could all get together, pool our money and each receive an eye dropper full of colored water that we each squirt on a pane of glass, with the first drop of colored water that hits the bottom becoming the "winner" and that colored waters owner collects money from that wager, or bet . in jamaica i used to go to the holiday inn to have a few drinks and bet on the crab races. they would put ten or so crabs with colors on their backs into a square box in the middle of a painted circle, everyone makes a bet on the colored crab of their choice and once they lift the box (and you've killed a drink or two) the crabs finally start making it to the finish line with all holders of winning tickets cashing in on the pooled money.

i give you these bizarre or extreme examples to demonstrate the difference between gambling and earning, and yes, people have bet on water drops and crab races but the only people that earn any money from it are the hotel owners. everyone else wins or loses.

i am not an attorney, and can't give you a legal definition of pooled money, i can however, as an enrolled agent give you an idea of the difference between earning and winning (hey i just learned how to use italics here, lookout board here i come.)

on the same note, i cannot give you an idea of the legalities and ramifications of running a tournament(unless you have a potential tax issue arising from it, say, you are a td that actually made two dollars from running an event,or are a td that spent money out of pocket to host an event which, when all is said and done you lost money even though it was your intent to profit from running it), and that hasn't been my intent.

next, as a professional disc golfer, it is your responsibility to report the amount of disc golf money that you
earn each year. you can do a few different things on a tax return with these earnings, however, only one will benefit you and the irs and state gov'ts will only ***** if you don't report these earnings, not report them incorrectly. you can report your earnings as ordinary income on the front page of your 1040, the burger flipping front lines people at the irs will type it in and there you go, you have satisfied your requirement to report. doesn't help you in the long run though because technically speaking, it has been reported incorrectly, the irs can and may tell you that you need to move them to the sch c where they belong as self employment income which happens to be subject to self employment tax , ordinary income is not subject to this tax and so even though you may have reported the correct amount on the front page of your return you may, if they call you on it, have to pay them some extra coin for your transgressions.

you could, if you choose, report it as gambling winnings , if you choose this option, you can deduct gambling losses (losing lottery tickets, keno cards etc) up to the extent of your gambling winnings . there are very real problems with this option, as above in the ordinary income example the irs will tell you that you did not report self employment income and they will shift this gambling winnings amount over to a sch c for you, then tell you after the fact along with a bill. most people would then just pay the new bill without asking why , where, how etc. this also means that they won't account for all legitimate expenses incurred to earn that money to begin with, giving you a double whammy.

the most appropriate course of action to take, and this may shock and surprise lots of you, is to report all of your disc golf earnings from tournaments every year! why? first of all because it is the technically correct thing to do, second because it allows you to offset your total amount of earnings during the year with all of your legitimate expenses to earn that income.

every entry fee, all the miles driven to the tournament and back, hotels, food (see your tax guy or hey, ask me) airline tickets and shocker golf discs and equipment as well.

to answer your question, these items are expenses not losses however, once you me or your tax guy adds them up, they may be a net loss from self employment activities that will carry over to your 1040 and offset your earned income from working at wendy's.

and for the last question , or statement, it was not my idea to put this topic to rest, i love to talk about tax as much as i love to talk about ultimate fighting and disc golf, i can talk about it until you all are blue in the face and even sleeping, my intent was to move it to another thread because ultimately, it has nothing to do with cam todd's apparent suspension.

...i love to talk about tax as much as i love to talk about ultimate fighting...



So there I was in Vegas on Super Bowl weekend, walking out of Man-to-Man Bay in the middle of the crowd Saturday night, wondering how the heck you train to punch only an eyelid. It must be a Brazilian thing that they don't cover until about level 9 black belt. But it sure as heck worked that night.

:)

lol. then the brazillians start with the excuses. if its not vitor its arona or nogueira etc. love to watch them fight just hate hearing the excuses afterwards...

ok, before i get hated on by some obscure brazilian dg'er, i edited this message to add that bustamante and babalu are two of my favorite fighters. actually rewatching the IFC 8 man tourney right now and babalu is absolutely amazing in this event.

the argument i began with, and have had many discussions with attornies and revenue agents, is that paying an entry fee to compete against other people in your division does not fit state or federal requirements to be classified as gambling. why hasn't florida or michigan or any other state for that matter cracked down on these "illegal gambling disc golf tournaments"? many arguments can be made , one of the most important imo is that if they did, they would not successfully argue their case against us and would then have to modify currently existing laws which would then cause a sort of domino effect weakening their grips on our activities and pocketbooks.

So, essentially, it appears that your argument boils down to a pragmatic one, [i.e.[/i], that while existing statues may very well encompass activities such as dg tournaments under the definition of gambling, for practical reasons, state and federal authorities choose not to enforce them.


so, why is there a specific mention of bowling in the statutes and not dg? is there a difference in paying a fee to enter a bowling tournament in order to use your bowling SKILL to EARN a cash prize and paying a fee to enter a dg tournament in order to use your dg skill to earn a cash prize? no, attornies for the state and fed know this, revenue agents know this and probably all of three bowlers in the world know that this exemption exists.

Whether or not one can successfully defend the proposition that dg tournaments are analogous to bowling tournaments and should therefore also be exempt, the very existence of a written, statutory exemption for bowling tournaments does rather seem to beg the question of why the FL and MI legislatures deemed it necessary to create a statutory exemption for bowling tournaments if, in the absence of that exemption, bowling tournaments would not have violated the statute in the first place. The question is sharpened by the fact that some states, such as AZ (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/search/oop/qfullhit.asp?CiWebHitsFile=/ars/13/03301.htm) (see also, �13-3302 (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/search/oop/qfullhit.asp?CiWebHitsFile=/ars/13/03302.htm&CiRestriction=gambling&CiBeginHilite=&CiEndHilite=&CiHiliteType=Full)) specifically permit "amusement gambling" (provided that certain conditions set forth in the statute are met), the definition of which encompasses "athletic event[s]" in which "Skill and not chance is clearly the predominant factor in the game and the odds of winning the game based upon chance cannot be altered], while other states, such as GA (http://www2.state.ga.us/GaOCA/Gambling.htm#16-12-20), specifically exclude "offer[ing] of a prize, award, or compensation to the actual contestants in any bona fide contest for the determination of skill, speed, strength, or endurance or to the owners of animals, vehicles, watercraft, or aircraft entered in such contest" from their definition of gambling.

Maybe Bruce can shed some light on this when he gets back from Luddington. When Bruce and I were doing more research the MI law started to get foggy--in a good way. Bruce always says that the foggier the law is, the better chance you have to form an argument to support your side. The IL law is clear and allows winning pooled money when it is a prize for a test of skill or strength.

Ave Joe, your argument that no one is prosecuting this doesn't fly. MI prosecutors, like most of the people in this country, have no idea what we're doing. All you can say at this point is that it is a situation that has not gone to trial in MI.

my argument is not about whether or not we are similar to bowling, and it is certainly not one of they just dont know about us . hasn't michigan hosted the dg world championships? arizona? how long has florida been hosting big events in the winter? revenue agents across the country have a book on every single occupation except for maybe porn set fluffer and they know where money comes from and how it is possible to hide it.

i will try and make this as clear and succinct as possible....

no matter how you try and classify monies that flow to players who compete at dg tournaments, the end result is that a player has some money. it is that players responsibility to report that money to the state (if a resident of a state that taxes income) and also to the fed.

ok, so now a player has some money, how do you report it? in the examples i used previously and will recycle here for brevity, you can list it as ordinary income, gambling winnings or self employment income. i guess that you could put it on a sch e and call it rent, you can put it on a sch f for farming, hell you could put it on a sch b , d , or j if you wanted to but the end result is always the same, if a human beyond the entry level data entry person at the state or federal level looks at your return, it will end up on a sch c and you will pay self employment tax on that money.

deduct all of your legitimate expenses that you incurr to generate that money you are paying self employment tax on. all of them. you are self employed professional disc golfer. doesn't matter if you only tour for the spring and summer, or maybe just the winter in florida, whatever.

the key point i am trying to make here is that ultimately, the IRS and State Dept of Rev (or Taxation however you state decides to call it doesn't matter they take your money from you is all that matters) will MAKE YOU PUT THE MONEY ON A SCH C.

you can be self employed in many many different trades, professions, etc but you they have set up very specific rules to PREVENT YOU FROM BEING A SELF EMPLOYED GAMBLER.

i can state , with almost absolute certainty, that of all the people that frequent this board, 0 or none of you file Sch C's for the money you make going from casino to casino, SoCal cardroom to indian reservation making enough coin to have enough extra at the end of the year with no other source of income to keep you going.

if you do not file a Sch C for self employment income on the money you make from competing in disc golf tournaments YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW.

this brings up an interesting scenario where the state lawmakers will be at odds with state and federal revenue agents and who do you think will win?

I doubt that there are any prosecutors in MI that know that the disc golf world championships have been held there, because they don't know what disc golf is.

I think that it is probably possible to break a state law but still be compliant with federal tax code.

"Please give it a rest and get your facts together before you open your mouths again. Those of you step up and say the things that you do and you don't even do half of your home work are really amazing, and you want to represent some or even all of us???? Good luck, I would love to be a fly on the wall as you eyes are opened to the facts as they are not as you perceive them."

mr. mace, i have done my homework. i might not get a gold star for it, but i've been around. i have a great deal of respect for your work as a TD and promoter of our sport, and wish that you were on the ballot with me this upcoming election. let's talk about discipline though since that's what this thread is about.

i went to maceman's "Big Show" supertour this past january. a great event. there was an issue that came up with rules where mr. mace and i disagreed about what should have been done (i'm pretty sure the details can be found elsewhere for those who'd like to know the exact issues). the point is, our rules, TD agreements, and constitution are vague enough that two highly intelligent people such as mace and i can read them and come to different conclusions about proper handling of things that happen at a disc golf tournament.

i say again, as a TD i do not condone what Cam did at the BHMO. the PDGA should not condone this behavior and they did the right thing by taking action...however, they overreacted. for someone to say i don't have all the facts, i say to you, i have all the facts i need. to give one player probation for threatening another player but to suspend another for 4 months for yelling at a TD just isn't fair. put cam on probation, review the rules governing the sport, and let's move on.

the PDGA BOD has indeed put us all on notice that yelling at TDs in front of spectators, staff and sponsors will not be tolerated. i applaud this greatly. it is my belief that Cam should be put on probation. that seems fair. if he gets out of line again, give him a suspension.

cam, if you are reading this, i hope you realize that what i am saying is for the good of the sport and is not me saying that i would defend you and now i'm selling you out. i'm not selling you out. if what you told me is true, i know you won't ever shout at a TD so you'll never have to worry about getting suspended. the people in columbus feel you've done them wrong and i know that you were not the only player that was upset by how the BHMO was run, but if you get only probation, which is all you should get, show us all that you are the man who can be a great ambassador for the sport as well as a great champion on the course. if you get more than probation, we'll know the PDGA really was out to get you personally, and i'll do eveything i can to remove from power those who didn't give you a fair chance to present your case.

any questions?

You may have done your home work on this specific BHMO incident, but I think, as others have pointed out, the suspension was not only for this incident but an accumulation of other incidents that lead to this suspension. It's like our rules where you get a warning first and then get stroked the next time. With me knowing none of the details of this or other incidents, it simply looks like the Disciplinary Committee decided it was time for Cam to get 'stroked.'

I think that it is probably possible to break a state law but still be compliant with federal tax code.

Thank you, Jon. You've said in 20 words what it's taken me several hundred, if not thousand, words to attempt to say. Maybe I need to hire you to be my editor. :D

Ave_joe, I'm not disputing the tax implications of competing in disc golf tournaments. For my part, I think the PDGA needs to do more to ensure that both TDs and players comply with reporting provisions of the tax code. I am disputing the contention that disc golf tournaments, as currently structured, do not fall under definition of "gambling" as defined by individual state statutes.

Under the definition spelled out in the AZ statute (cited above), dg tournaments clearly qualify as "amusement gambling" (presuming that they conform to the other provisions of the statute). Notwithstanding the fact that the statute explicitly permits "amusement gambling," the statutes still defines the activity as "gambling." In contrast to AZ, GA's statutes (see above) explicitly excludes competing for prizes or compensation in constests of skill from its definition of gambling. Two different states: two very different understandings of what "gambling" is.

"I doubt that there are any prosecutors in MI that know that the disc golf world championships have been held there, because they don't know what disc golf is."

yet the Governor of the State of Michigan decrees that June is Disc Golf Month?

"I think that it is probably possible to break a state law but still be compliant with federal tax code."

and in other news, california allows for medicinal marijuana use in spite of the federal ban on possession...

thanks for that brilliant bit of insight there chief, had i known we were going to stay in the shallow end of the pool i would have left my floaties on my recliner. next comment like that and we are going to have to meet behind the cafeteria after school and settle this like boys.

"I think that it is probably possible to break a state law but still be compliant with federal tax code."

and in other news, california allows for medicinal marijuana use in spite of the federal ban on possession...

thanks for that brilliant bit of insight there chief, had i known we were going to stay in the shallow end of the pool i would have left my floaties on my recliner. next comment like that and we are going to have to meet behind the cafeteria after school and settle this like boys.



I'm following this discussion because I'm interested in the result, but I don't understand why avg_joe is getting so upset here. I think people are saying what they mean to say, not trying to be cute. Some think that there is a gambling violation going on and are concerned about that, citing how bowling had to write an exemption into the law to get around it. And avg_joe is saying that because the income from a disc golf tournament is not reported as gambling income on a tax form, then the disc golf tournament is not engaged in gambling.

Instead of getting hot under the collar for no reason (or if you're not wearing a collared shirt, hot under something else), one might answer the question being raised.

Question: would prize money from bowling tournaments be considered gambling money on a tax form? If not, then maybe there is a separation between what a tax form considers gambling and what anti-gambling laws are trying to stop. If income from bowling tournaments is also reported on Schedule C, then why were bowling tournaments given a special exemption from anti-gambling laws in one or more states? If this can be answered, then parallels can be drawn with disc golf tournaments, and we can move forward.

I think avg_joe has ample tax code knowledge and might be able to shed some light on this. But if he won't, then does anybody else have any info they can share that would help resolve this?

"I doubt that there are any prosecutors in MI that know that the disc golf world championships have been held there, because they don't know what disc golf is."

yet the Governor of the State of Michigan decrees that June is Disc Golf Month?

"I think that it is probably possible to break a state law but still be compliant with federal tax code."

and in other news, california allows for medicinal marijuana use in spite of the federal ban on possession...

thanks for that brilliant bit of insight there chief, had i known we were going to stay in the shallow end of the pool i would have left my floaties on my recliner. next comment like that and we are going to have to meet behind the cafeteria after school and settle this like boys.



I thought we were having a conversation. I'm done talking to you now. Have a nice life. :p

Maybe Bruce can shed some light on this when he gets back from Luddington. When Bruce and I were doing more research the MI law started to get foggy--in a good way. Bruce always says that the foggier the law is, the better chance you have to form an argument to support your side. The IL law is clear and allows winning pooled money when it is a prize for a test of skill or strength.

Ave Joe, your argument that no one is prosecuting this doesn't fly. MI prosecutors, like most of the people in this country, have no idea what we're doing. All you can say at this point is that it is a situation that has not gone to trial in MI.



Ludington was good fun, although I'm not certain whether it was legal! Kira tied Sarah for first for the tournament and lost on a two-hole sudden death. Kelsey backed into an Intermediate Women State Championship by being the only one to show up to play that division. I think the scores will show that she played just as well as the winner in the pro women's division. I played credible advanced amateur disc golf and finished tied for 6th for the tournament and 4th or 5th overall for the series. It did not rain except a passing sprinkle at night. The lake was refreshing.

If it were poker, Fore has a full house and Average Joe is bluffing. I have no doubt that Average Joe knows what he knows, tax law, but he has not actually read Florida, Michigan, California, Arizona, Illinois and South Carolina gaming statutes. I have.

Gambling is a state law issue, and the answer depends upon the laws of the state where you do it.

Last time I spent a couple of weekends on this project, what we do seemed to be completely legal in most states, including Illinois, Texas and South Carolina. It is subject to quirky regulations in Arizona. If Arizona is enforcing that law, an Arizona TD would be well advised to read it.

What we do is prohibited three times in three different statutes in Michigan, but then there is this murky exception that depends upon the definition of a number of terms that are not defined by the statute, like "purse," "pool," and *providing services relating to the event.* My lawyer thinks I should change my tournament format to get on the clearly legal side of the line, and I think I will take her advice starting in 2005, if I find myself running Michigan tournaments in 2005. One of the lawyers I do consulting work for who practices criminal law and is an avid and successful gambler, thinks we have a compliance problem in Michigan. The other lawyer I do criminal law consulting work for thinks we do not. Michigan law is just that murky.

Bowling does the exact same thing that we do with entry fees and graduated payouts in cash or prizes. They have used their lobbying power to get statutes written allowing them to do it in Florida and Michigan. We have not. I'm not certain why they are ignoring some of the other states where there is a problem. Maybe it is just a matter of resources and time.

Disc golf gets by for the same reason Diana and I got by going 60-65 on state routes most of the way home today. Every state has far more laws than law enforcement resources. Every law enforcement agency makes decisions about what laws merit enforcement. Outside Carson City we were going 60 and we went right by a cop with radar. That's just the way it is. 55 was not *really* the state route rural speed limit today. Sometimes we are under the radar and other times we are not worth chasing.

avg_Joe,

I don't know if it makes any difference to you, but the point I took from other threads on this subject is the thing that makes it illegal according to some state laws, is that the prize money is almost exclusive funded by the pooled entry fees.

If I ran a tournament, and announced ahead of time that the payout would be $100 for first, $75 for 2nd, and $50 for 3rd, that'd different than running a tournamnet and announcing that "top 1/3 of the field will be paid, and total pay out will be whatever is paid in minus expenses".

The other thing I got from those threads is that running the tournament in the pooled entry fee format is what will get you in trouble, not participating in them.



Some states make it illegal to run pools, and they rarely define the term.

Some states make it illegal to play a game for any kind of payout. Some make it illegal to run the game. Some do both.

Some states distinguish between games of skill versus games of chance. Some don't.

Some states care how much is in the pot. Others don't.

There are 50 states that have about 30 different answers to the question. There is no one general answer.

You have to begin by getting out a road map and seeing what state you are in.

there was not even an ounce of anger in my reply. it was simply a response to either incredible naiivete on his part or the perception of the same on mine. notice the reference to settling this out behind the cafeteria, like boys, rather than discussing things, like men.

i was fortunate enough to learn my trade in much the same manner as danny larusso learned his karate, with a very very wise and battle hardened enrolled agent as my miyagi-san and as many attorneys in my family as i have fingers
.
perception always wins out over truth, and the letter of the law will always submit to the intent of the law.

bruce, thanks for joining the fracas. as a long time gambler myself with gambling trips from california to atlantic city, missouri to michigan, amsterdam to illinois and over 100 gambling trips to vegas , i have begun a modest gambling collection from old west memorabilia to simple casino chips and my collection is expanding to online casino websites with servers in foreign countries and undergoing the application process for land based casino licensure in both belize and jamaica. i also have an interest in hosting prize fighting events and have had conversations with gambling luminaries from danny sheridan to marc ratner of the nsac. i've read a thing or two about gambling statutes.

my contention , from the beginning, has been that a disc golfer who has an intent to make a profit by travelling to and competing in disc golf tournaments against others in the same division will face no gambling repurcussions, provided they don't make separate wagers on their own finishing position or that of others as well as making bets in various side activities like jumbo tosses etc.

if i were an individual or group who wishes to host , promote, td or otherwise arrange for these events to take place i would research my own individual circumstances and locations first, no different than if i decided to promote my own backyard ultimate fighting event or bar room punch game or football pool.

regardless of gambling or not, my experience leads me to believe that less than probably 5 percent of dg'ers are tax compliant. we can work towards raising that number or we can get out the rulers and start measuring.

Thanks, Bruce.

there was not even an ounce of anger in my reply.



I'm sorry, but your post read as if it had plenty of anger, born out of frustration, to me.


my contention , from the beginning, has been that a disc golfer who has an intent to make a profit by travelling to and competing in disc golf tournaments against others in the same division will face no gambling repurcussions, provided they don't make separate wagers on their own finishing position or that of others as well as making bets in various side activities like jumbo tosses etc.



Yes, I've understood you from the beginning, too. But you still haven't addressed the question. If what you say is true for disc golf tournaments, then it should be true for all tournaments.

So why were bowling tournaments given a specific exemption in anti-gambling laws in some states?

Seems unnecessary, based on your argument. Will you address this discrepancy or not?

my contention , from the beginning, has been that a disc golfer who has an intent to make a profit by travelling to and competing in disc golf tournaments against others in the same division will face no gambling repurcussions, provided they don't make separate wagers on their own finishing position or that of others as well as making bets in various side activities like jumbo tosses etc.

What????


drifting here slightly but, no. competing in a disc golf tournament is not gambling. not here there or anywhere. likewise, competing in a ball golf tournament is not gambling either.

stroke play, match play, doubles , singles, team play where you are competing against others in your division is not gambling.

the pdga has nothing to do with the gambling nature of competition, and does not keep us from "running afoul of the law".

a non-pdga sanctioned event is just as law abiding a competition as a sanctioned event.



Nothing here about "intent to profit." Nothing here (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Players&amp;Number=233032&amp;Searchpag e=0&amp;Main=231237&amp;Search=true&amp;#Post233032) either.

Paul, i can't answer your question regarding bowling tournaments being given a special exemption as i wasn't privy to the proceedings and as i've stated previously, i'm not an attorney and cannot give you legal information for that reason. i do have a client who is a professional bowler, makes his entire annual income from bowling tournaments around the country and i will ask him at the next opportunity for any specific bowling legislation insights he may have.

Mclaugh, intent to profit is inherent in the schedule c , and applies to any occupation, profession or business endeavor. why do i have a feeling you already knew that?

i say again, as a TD i do not condone what Cam did at the BHMO. the PDGA should not condone this behavior and they did the right thing by taking action...however, they overreacted. for someone to say i don't have all the facts, <font color="red"> i say to you, i have all the facts i need </font> . to give one player probation for threatening another player but to suspend another for 4 months for yelling at a TD just isn't fair. put cam on probation, review the rules governing the sport, and let's move on.





This is exactly what I am referring to Mike. You said you have all the facts you need, and then go on form there. I have witnessed many TD's strung up for whatever reason in the parking lot at any given event in the entire history of this sport based entirely on "Having all the facts I need". All the facts I need is not all the facts and there is far toooooooooooooooooo much of this in this sport.

I do not care who is reading this and if they are offended by what I have to say here. The bottom line is this, there is a lot of people who are talking about what is going and there is a few people that are making what is going on happen.

I was not on tour this year for many reasons. The first was a finance reason and the second was that I am sick and tired of the way the touring part of this sport is going. I made one appearance for one day this year and was immediately reminded and discussded with the conduct that I saw and heard about in Columbus (I was there on Sunday). Not to mention the things I heard about all year long. I have not been anywhere near the tour form the majority of the year and I hear this crap. I hear it from local people that have never toured. I hear it from friends that talked to someone who was at the event and they say "I talked to so and so and he played in Bowling Green and you should have seen.... or you should have heard"...... and this is all the biggest bunch of dumb ***** crap I have ever heard. Disc Golf Touring is one of the coolest things I have ever done in my life. It was great fun and it is one of the coolest things that you can do for yourself. But just because it is what a player chose to do and he is good at it doesn't mean he has the right to act one way now and another way later, especially if that means lashing out at many TD's, not just one.

As a TD I have been an indirect recipient of this lashing. This lashing out at TD's is not new to the tour. It is what prompted me to get into being a TD. I heard the touring players ripping on events every week. I was one of the people who did some ripping, not to the TD just to the touring players. Then I thought, I must think that I can do it better so I better get busy. I will not say that I have nothing to learn in this department, but I have learned from my mistakes and those others have made as well. I run good events, but there is always room for improvement and I will listen to sugestions and input when I am approached with the proper conduct. However I am completly unwilling to take a lashing from someone who has come into town to collect what he see's as his before he rips me an new one and rides off to the next stop.

The reality of what is going on is rarely portrayed completely by the people who are watching. These are the people who act on the "I have all the facts I need" statement and then drag the people who are putting out their best efforts into a pit of sh#@.

I wish you well in your quest Mike, but you better open your eyes and ears completely. Listen to and or find all of the facts before you act, not just "the facts you need" because you need ALL the facts before you can make the right decision. I have jumped to conclusions in the past pertaining to action and activities pertaining to the PDGA and I have had my eyes opened and I found quite a different reality then the "all the facts I need" approach will give.

Very well said Brian!! You hit it right on the head!

Well said Brian.

Mclaugh, intent to profit is inherent in the schedule c , and applies to any occupation, profession or business endeavor. why do i have a feeling you already knew that?

And exactly where do your first two posts reference intet to profit or schedule c??? :confused:

However I am completly unwilling to take a lashing from someone who has come into town to collect what he see's as his before he rips me an new one and rides off to the next stop.



Would it make any difference if you knew he had complied with all state and federal tax regulations?

here is the official wording for Michigan Governor Granholm's proclamation making June 2004 Disc Golf Month...

notice the emphasis on professional tournaments...

Disc Golf Month
Whereas, It is estimated that Michigan has over 3,000 recreational disc golfers and 59 public disc golf courses currently operating throughout the state; and,

Whereas, Disc golf is an excellent �lifetime sport� sport for all ages and can be found in 20 countries worldwide; and,

Whereas, Disc golf conditions the upper and lower body, providing a wonderful opportunity to improve our health; and,

Whereas, Disc golf provides an opportunity for residents and visitors to enjoy Michigan�s beautiful natural environment; and,

Whereas, The Professional Disc Golf Association�s 2004 National Tour will include two competitive events in Michigan, including the Discraft Great Lakes Open in June 2004; and now therefore be it,

Resolved, That I, Jennifer M. Granholm, Governor of the State of Michigan, do hereby proclaim the month of June 2004, as Disc Golf Month in Michigan.

I have also contacted the Governors office to enquire about the official state stance on organizing and hosting a professional event where professional players compete against one another for a cash prize, as well as the players who pay an entry fee for a chance to compete.

i had to give the impression that i am a resident of michigan, when in fact i am not even a resident of this country. i suggest a concerned individual from any other state who may be concerned about this topic contact their respective governors in order to be certain to receive an official state response. the main reason i started my query directly with the governors office in michigan is specifically due to her proclamation referenced above and the emphasis on professional tournaments. you will probably find resistance at your states gaming control board level, simply because most states don't recognize what we do as gambling and they will not know how to respond. press for a specific exemption if you feel it is necessary based on your states wording .

Wow I just got back from Neptune on a detour from Saturn and just found out about this today. I must say I AM SHOCKED! I never thought the PDGA would actually suspend him for a substancial time period, especially for USDGC.

I was right beside CAM when he began his rampage on the TD, I witnessed it all and laughed because I figured the PDGA wouldn't do anything again. His comment about Dan running the tournament just to get his name on the Lukemia Society's check was worth 4 months in itself. I thought everything that he said to Dan was a bunch of BS. The BHMO has always been a good event and sure the course is hard but what's wrong with that.


I have seen that side of Cam many of times. I have played with Cam dozens of times and we all know of my past run-ins with him. For the arguement that Cam is a good guy, well Cam is an alright guy OFF the course. ON the course, if he's not shooting the course record or in first, he can be the worst person in the World to play with, well except that other guy that is also on my team. There will never ever be anyone as bad to play with than "Sunshine" aka "Mr I just shot -13 and I'm still Grumpy". Sometimes I wish he would just suck on a revolver and put himself out of his own misery. Sorry I drifted a bit. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

For you guys bashing the PDGA. I must warn you, I once made accusations and claims that the PDGA members were a bunch of yayhoos and I saw some repercutions because of it. 1st tee-time at WOLRDS in AZ 7:30am, 2nd tee-time at USDGC 7:40am. Coincidence? :confused: I think not, so watch what you say about the PDGA. :D

Come on PDGA guys PLEASE forgive me. PLEASE give me a later tee-time this year at USDGC. :p

nina fo I think the tee times after the first round are in your hands :D GOOD LUCK

What's the saying? "Forgiveness is easier to get than permission."

In Texas (if Texas had a similar statute), I'm pretty sure that the attorney general would have to decide such a question. I'd bet that the Attorney general's staff would never officially take this question up since it is so insignificant. I also bet (since I'm a disc golfer :D) that noone from the Attorney General's staff would ever waste a dime (even in conservative Texas) prosecuting such a "violation" since is doesn't smell like "gambling" in the common understanding of the word.

1st tee-time at WOLRDS in AZ 7:30am, 2nd tee-time at USDGC 7:40am.



Yeah, you would've been much better off to start at 9:30, not finish your round, hang out in the hail for an hour, gotten a ride down the mountain in the back of a pickup, possilby breaking your thumb, then having to climb up the mountain to finish your round 3 days later.

Paul, i've done a little bit of searching on my own here to try and find an answer that may possibly bring some closure to the specific bowling exemptions, it just as easily may not but the only way to get there is to eliminate the impossibilities so here i go...

gambling statutes, in general and across the board were designed with two things in mind, either allowing some types of gaming and making sure the State gets paid off the top or disallowing gaming altogether in our more conservative states. in general, games of amusement, also called amusement games, are machine based , typically where you push a button, pull a lever etc and in most cases chance is the biggest factor keeping you from the cash.

one game in particular that most people will recognize by substance, if not by name, are the bowling games typically found in arcades where the bowler tries to put the ball into a ring or series of rings and collects tickets which are redeemable for prizes of very small value depending on the state or jurisdiction. these are not the bowling contests where bowling athletes, if it is possible to call them athletes, compete for large cash purses on national tv. these bowling games are amusement gambling.

in a perfect world, an amusement arcade which features these bowling games, crane games etc would also feature a pole hole which the amusement gambler would throw discs into in order to "win" a small cash prize. in that world you would almost certainly see a specific disc golf exemption to allow the amusement gambling house to offer that game, and of course the house would be raking.

the bowling games i mention are prevalent in chuck e cheeses and arcades around the country and have to be mentioned specifically due to the fact that the original wording of the gaming laws didn't take into account the idea that someone would actually want to toss a bowling ball into a series of rings for a chance to win a stuffed animal. original gaming laws start out with dice and cards which are the oldest means of gambling, then machines where you pull levers , then branch out to cover the bowling games. keep in mind that all of these things i mention typically fall under the category of amusement gaming or gambling and are not the same as an athletic contest where the outcome is determined by a series of factors not limited to learned skills, eye hand coordination, strategy and on and on and on.

FYI... These bowling "amusement" games you refer to are also known as "Skee Ball" games.

attorneys general are even worse than an average attorney when it comes to getting a stance. the reason i questioned the governor was because she had already taken a stance. she has already recognized the game, recognized the professional athletic events that were taking place as well as all the other benefits. AG's may have the last word on prosecution (save of course a stay by gov etc) but getting an attorney to answer a question , especially one where the word "gambling" is mentioned is going to be quite a difficult row to hoe. i agree with the rest because you know what, we're not gambling. ok include caveats about jumbo tosses, calcuttas, pools etc on and on so that no one jumps my [*****] about not including every conceivable type of "gambling" format that could be related to the outcome of a dg event.

the bowling games i mention are prevalent in chuck e cheeses and arcades around the country and have to be mentioned specifically due to the fact that the original wording of the gaming laws didn't take into account the idea that someone would actually want to toss a bowling ball into a series of rings for a chance to win a stuffed animal. original gaming laws start out with dice and cards which are the oldest means of gambling, then machines where you pull levers , then branch out to cover the bowling games. keep in mind that all of these things i mention typically fall under the category of amusement gaming or gambling and are not the same as an athletic contest where the outcome is determined by a series of factors not limited to learned skills, eye hand coordination, strategy and on and on and on.



Sounds to me like you're saying the bowling tournament "exemption" was actually a clarification to make sure that real bowling was never intended to be considered gambling. That makes a whole lot more sense to me. Thanks!

paul, i can't say that IS the answer you were looking for, again i'm not an attorney and to tell you the truth, while i love to wager i don't ever gamble on amusement games, lotteries etc, so i'm not really interested in breaking down amusement game statutes line by line. the most prominent item i found in my search for bowling exemptions was, for example, that the prize had to have a retail value of like $3.75 or less, that kind of stuff tells me right off the bat that we are not dealing with an athletic competition, what we are dealing with is an ever watchful state that doesn't want to see its good citizens fleeced by unscrupulous bowling game operators who of course may manipulate the throwing area, ring size, etc in order to make it nearly impossible for someone to win a prize. if the state limits the prize value in these amusement games, an average person is not going to put dollar after dollar after dollar into the machine to win a pencil eraser or cotton candy, unless, of course, they are using the machine as a babysitter and little joey keeps running back and forth for more change while dad is mackin on his new gf.

Off-topic, are you in Jamaica now? I saw that Hurricane Ivan was now a Cat 4 and about to roll right over that island.

no im in metro detroit now, i've been travelling to and living in jamaica since 81 though and this is the most active hurricane season i can remember. will be moving back down there within the next month though once hurricane season is over. every caribbean island and a good portion of the u.s. feels the effects of these things but thankfully they rarely turn out as bad as forecast. i own vacant lands and rent housing so the most i really suffer is loss of some snorkelling opportunities. i wish everyone else on the island was so lucky.

For you guys bashing the PDGA. I must warn you, I once made accusations and claims that the PDGA members were a bunch of yayhoos and I saw some repercutions because of it. 1st tee-time at WOLRDS in AZ 7:30am, 2nd tee-time at USDGC 7:40am. Coincidence? :confused: I think not, so watch what you say about the PDGA. :D


Kevin,

As tournament director and official in charge of setting the tee times at the USDGC, I can assure you that your early morning tee time last year had absolutely nothing to do with any criticism you may have had of the PDGA. Initial tee times and foursomes are completely random with one exception. I generally check all of the groupings to make sure players from the same cities or foreign countries are not grouped together in round 1 if at all possible. I personally do not like travelling to a distant tournament only to end up in a group with the same people I play with at home every day.

Past history shows that the wind usually gets stronger later in the day at Winthrop, so an early tee time might be construed by some as an advantage.

See you in Rock Hill and good luck.

Regards,

BG, I know that its random and I was actually just trying to put some fear in to the people about bashing the PDGA, kinda like the boogie man is in the closet. I am keeping my fingers crossed for a 11 am tee-time, I'm sure I'll be up late watching CUBBIE playoff games again. Do you accept bribes? :D

See ya soon!

Do you accept brides?



Interesting misspelling (or was it?) :eek:

Do you accept brides?



Interesting misspelling (or was it?) :eek:



More interesting was how quickly he can edit! :D

paul, i can't say that IS the answer you were looking for, again i'm not an attorney and to tell you the truth, while i love to wager i don't ever gamble on amusement games, lotteries etc, so i'm not really interested in breaking down amusement game statutes line by line. the most prominent item i found in my search for bowling exemptions was, for example, that the prize had to have a retail value of like $3.75 or less, that kind of stuff tells me right off the bat that we are not dealing with an athletic competition, what we are dealing with is an ever watchful state that doesn't want to see its good citizens fleeced by unscrupulous bowling game operators who of course may manipulate the throwing area, ring size, etc in order to make it nearly impossible for someone to win a prize. if the state limits the prize value in these amusement games, an average person is not going to put dollar after dollar after dollar into the machine to win a pencil eraser or cotton candy, unless, of course, they are using the machine as a babysitter and little joey keeps running back and forth for more change while dad is mackin on his new gf.

Your interpretation of "bowling" [may[/i] (and I emphasize, "may") be valid for MI, but it does not come close addressing the FL statute:


849.14* Unlawful to bet on result of trial or contest of skill, etc.--Whoever stakes, bets or wagers any money or other thing of value upon the result of <font color="red">any trial or contest of skill, speed or power or endurance of human or beast</font>, or whoever receives in any manner whatsoever any money or other thing of value staked, bet or wagered, or offered for the purpose of being staked, bet or wagered, by or for any other person upon any such result, or whoever knowingly becomes the custodian or depositary of any money or other thing of value so staked, bet, or wagered upon any such result, or whoever aids, or assists, or abets in any manner in any of such acts all of which are hereby forbidden, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

History.--s. 1, ch. 5959, 1909; s. 1, ch. 6188, 1911; RGS 5514; CGL 7672; s. 1069, ch. 71-136; s. 1366, ch. 97-102.

849.141* Bowling tournaments exempted from chapter.--

(1)**Nothing contained in this chapter shall be applicable to participation in or the conduct of a bowling tournament conducted at a bowling center which requires the payment of entry fees, from which fees the winner receives a purse or prize.

(2)**<font color="red">As used in this section, the term:

(a)**"Bowling tournament" means a contest in which participants engage in the sport of bowling, wherein a heavy ball is bowled along a bowling lane in an attempt to knock over bowling pins, 10 in number, set upright at the far end of the lane, according to specified regulations and rules of the American Bowling Congress, the Womens International Bowling Congress, or the Bowling Proprietors Association of America.</font>

(b)**"Bowling center" means a place of business having at least 12 bowling lanes on the premises which are operated for the entertainment of the general public for the purpose of engaging in the sport of bowling.

History.--s. 1, ch. 85-24.

The FL statute expressly prohibits staking, betting, or wagering on "any trial or contest of skill, speed or power or endurance of human or beast." Presumably, dg tournaments are a "trial or contest of skill ... of human[s]," and therefore covered by the statute.

The FL bowling exception explicitly defines the object, equipment, venue, and conduct ("according to specified regulations and rules of the American Bowling Congress, the Womens International Bowling Congress, or the Bowling Proprietors Association of America) of exempt "trials or contests of skill." Again, why create an exemption for a specific athletic competition if athletic competitions are not covered by the law in the first place?

Why is it that the excuse that our sport is not a valid one (ie - we're just gambling anyway) comes up anytime someone has been or is about to be "punished" for something by the governing body of our sport?

Is it the...

Well, we're not even a sport so we have no right to punish anyone for their actions (albeit said actions are detrimental to the worlds perception/acceptance of our sport) ... argument?

The gambling/sport argument should be moved to the "true am class" thread IMO. Until we completely re-vamp the way DG tournament play is conducted - these issues will not go away NOR will we have a true class of amateurs competing. AND until the PDGA gets a huge and un-ignorable reason to completely re-vamp the competitive structure - it won't happen (again - just my opinion).