for all pdga events with ratings posted for 2007:
average last cash in open:
NC (28 events) 976.81
CA (29 events) 976.95
VA (19 events) 978.05

... so it appears that NEITHER NC or CA is the most difficult place to cash. (my guess would be OR- they seem to have a high ratio of top guns to mullets)

average last cash in masters (just compared nc and va for my own curiosity):
NC 958.0
VA 953.02

i wish there was an easy was to extract the data so a look at the whole country could be viewed.

Cali had 38 Pro events last year.

some had no rated rounds, some had ratings taken down for the update- same for the other states.

interesting info biscoe... good job getting all that together and as someone said... it would be interesting to see those #s across the US.

what could some of the contributing factors to this be?
Obvious one would be 'tougher field in state X as opposed to state Z'
I'm thinking more like...
-Do some tournies payout lower than others?
-Some events may draw more of the top tourning pros?

not arguing any side... just interesting to see what may be behind the #s.

If i have time i'll run it but an interesting comparison would be to look @ the average rating needed to win in Advanced in those states (since I think 'last cash' isnt always tracked).... in theory there should be a correlation but it would help rule out the extraneous variables mentioned above.

After the taking the events with no rating I got 33 cali event with an last cash rating avg of (977.33)

What does help Cali is we have two NT events.

... so it appears that NEITHER NC or CA is the most difficult place to cash. (my guess would be OR- they seem to have a high ratio of top guns to mullets)





What about this (http://www.usdgc.com/) place? :D

Not to take anything from the ADV players in NC there are some good I believe it is harder in Cali. I played 3 events in NC and 5 events in Cali last year.

sounds like its spoken from one of the few people that have played in both places topdog! (no sarcasm) I would think it rare to find someone who's played @ the advanced level like that so I would think you would have more incite.

and im not trying to prove any points or anything... just curious how that stat would correlate w/ biscoe's stats. (looking for trending or something like that i guess)

i was actually thinking that the #s might show that it'd be harder win win ADV than get last cash (when comparing a few states and looking @ averages)... #s may prove the other way though. (plus it'd be tough when some tournies they play different courses w/ diff ratings)

What about this (http://www.usdgc.com/) place? :D



FYI... 999.75!!!

5 events in oregon come out to just over 980- i think the main thing we can learn from this is that it is not significantly easier/more difficult anywhere... that and that it is absolutely ridiculous for the cutoff for pros playing am to be 970. even in the big events those players would only need to play about 1.5 strokes per round above their average to cash in open.

Stack

The two NC tournaments I played the avg Adv winners shot 984 rating my third tourney doesnt have ratings. The 5 tournaments in Cali the avg Adv winner shot 996 rating.

yeah... i'd say thats a significant difference topdog :) (and crazy to think they had to shoot almost 1000 to win!)

5 tournaments in Cali the avg Adv winner shot 996 rating.



That is beyond rediculous.

this is sick... Jeremy Koling shooting ~1010 back to back rounds to win the Yadkin Open (only 2 strokes away from MJs win). Its not in the ratings yet but i'm basing it off previous years where his rounds would've averaged out to that...

I did run the #s for all of NC am winners and found the median somewhere around Biscoe's average for last cash in Pro... i'll put up the average in a few but of the 30 events there were 10 w/ 990+ and 6 w/ 969 and lower (lowest was 963 - Salisbury)

After averaging everything out...
'Advanced wins in NC' = 980.9373333333333
(note: I didnt count Jeremy's YO Fall finish since it wasn't official... if I had it would've been ~982)

Highest (aka 990+)
997 - Discourse
995 - King's Cup
995 - Yadkin Spring
994.5 - CLT Open
992.75 - Slappy's
992.5 - Down East
992 - PB Hornet's Nest
991.5 - Big Valley
991 - PB Sugaw
991 - Buckhorn

Lowest (969 and lower)
963 - Salisbury
963 - Hickory
967 - Sanford
968 - Flying Discs
968.66 - Mt Experience
969.25 - Alamance


FYI... im running the #s for Cali now and they indeed are SICK! of the 14 events i've done 8 had 990+ and one was ~1005!!!

On another thread I pointed out that 12 of the top rated players in the world are from Cali while 3 are from NC. This may or may not mean anything with regards to where it is easier to cash. NC probably gets more people playing from surrounding states. I don't have the time or patience to look at all those stats you guys are. That is hard core! If there are any differences I am sure they are slight. I know it's harder to cash in the US than in Europe!

I won the Sf Safari in Aug on the 3rd playoff hole my avg for the 3 rounds was 1004.

MOVE UP :D

topdog... there was that one and 5 others where 1000+ won the tourney (for advanced) w/ the highest being 1011.33 @ the Chuck Freelun (sp?)

CA had 18 total w/ 990+ and only 2 in the 960's range!

CA's average for 38 events was 985.66

I also ran the #s for NY (picked randomly since I used to live there before my DG days) and SC (our neighbor).

I've expanded on Biscoe's list and *'d the ones he ran the #s on...

VA (19 events) 978.05*
CA (29 events) 976.95*
NC (28 events) 976.81*
NY (14 events) 966.66
SC (13 events) 964.79

ADV wins
CA (38 events) 985.66 (+8.71)
NC (30 events) 980.94 (+4.13)
VA (19 events) 976.4 (-1.65)
SC (12 events) 973.59 (+8.80)
NY (14 events) 968.10 (+1.44)

(the #s in (x) is the difference between the Am winning and pro last cash average)

and BTW... VA has to have the record for most all over the place for am in these #s... one as low as 937 (when no other state was lower than 960) and 3 in the 'high' 1000's... 1022, 1016, 1013!!!

I was after last years worlds but was unable to play so I will after this years worlds.

Stack

The two NC tournaments I played the avg Adv winners shot 984 rating my third tourney doesnt have ratings. The 5 tournaments in Cali the avg Adv winner shot 996 rating.


IMO there are a lot more factors that would need to be figured in to really get an accurate account of any state vs. another state. With the population of CA being so much larger than NC there should be a significantly larger # of 1000 rated players. I would also think there are more NT's & A tiers in CA that bring in more 1000+ rated players and this in turn brings up the ratings for those events in general. With that being said having to shoot a 996 average to win in advanced is pretty sick regardless of the state or tournament!

There are 2 NT events in Ca and one A tier. In NC there are 3 A tiers.

lowest was 963 - Salisbury



there were only 3 of us though and 1 dropped out

When is the "Who's Bagging in CA" thread starting? Look what it did for Buckhorn as far as clarifying controversy. ;)


Congrats on the NC record Monty! :D

Another thing to consider when talking about avg. ratings to win an amateur event is the number of rounds played for the event. Although most of the events I played last year were in the midwest, I played 5 events in NC and a few others in the southeast last year, and every one of those had 4 rounds. In the midwest, most of our B and C tiers are 2 round tournaments, while it seems in NC everything is a 4 rounder. I'm not sure how they do it out west. I think it's much easier for an advanced player to shoot well above his rating for 2 rounds than 4 rounds. I don't really know if that means anything or not.

On another note, while in NC many people suggested to me that maybe the advanced players there were better than those in IL or elsewhere in the country. I remember the "Captain" Kirk telling me something like "I've seen people come to NC and not be able to cash in advanced even though they did all the time back home." And this may be the case for some, but I don't think it has to do with a "better than the rest" advanced field in NC. I didn't think it was any different, however I have quite a bit of experience on different types of courses. I think it may have more to do with a different style of golf for some players. Honestly, I also think there are less baggers in NC. It seems like people down there move up faster than in IL. We have a lot of 950-960 guys that play a long time in advanced. I don't care to look up what kind of rating it takes to win advanced in IL, but I'm sure it's probably pretty similar around the country.

Another idea is that it may be harder to play above your rating in NC, many of the courses are tougher and demand you throw a good line or you get penalized with a lot of trees. It's harder to be a little bit off on a shot and have it still work out well enough to gain a stroke and/or not be penalized.

Sorry for the rambling, I don't know if any of this makes sense or means anything, just some observations from playing in different parts of the country.

All this talk about NC and Cali.........What about MI???

Oh and PS the average last cash rating spot has ALOT to do with how many players were in the Open division at that tournament!!!

Throw Discraft!!!

Oh and PS the average last cash rating spot has ALOT to do with how many players were in the Open division at that tournament!!!




not really in what direct looking at it i did (about 65 events). all generalizations hereafter:
nt's and a tiers were around 985 give or take regardless of whether they were in nc, ca, or va.with other events with even decent attendance falling in about 10 points lower give or take. there was actually much less variance than i expected. events with very few players varied pretty wildly encompassing both the high and low ends but there were few of those events.

someone with 5 minutes time should run the numbers for their own states. i would like to see them but i'm done with the grunt work myself.

Really the score to win advanced vs. the last cash open isn't really the best indicator of how good advanced is... Pretty much every state has those one or two "career ams" that win tournament after tournament and never move up and annoy a lot of people.

The score of the winner in advanced can be greatly affected by how good that one "stud" who won't move up is in any given state. Back in the 90s, were California amateur ball golfers markedly better that any others in the nation when one of them won three straight amateur championships? (Tiger) Well, one of them was...

One thought would be to compare what it takes to finish in the top 20% of the advanced players at a given tournament... what it takes to finish 4th out of 20... For 4 random Virginia tournaments that was 950 on average. In NC it was 956. (But last cash open for those 4 was 974 in VA and 969 in NC.) The variance is so high that none of the difference is significant.

Its kind of like middle of the cash, but since payouts for ams aren't displayed, its easier to figure out.

All this talk about NC and Cali.........What about MI???



The Adv winner shot an avg of 982.79 in 44 events in MI.

All this talk about NC and Cali.........What about MI???



The Adv winner shot an avg of 982.79 in 44 events in MI.



What about last cash in Open???

The biggest difference I observed when I moved from the DC area to San Diego back in 2001 was the huge jump in the number and the quality of the SoCal Masters and Grandmasters players. The relative ease of cashing is difficult to compare since larger fields equates to deeper payouts.

One thing I remember from my Maryland days...we loved going over to VA and taking their money. I imagine the NC folks feel the same! Three cheers for VA!!! ;)

Last cash in MI was 983.15 rated round for 40 tournament. There were about half of those tournments that had less than 10 players in Open.

The biggest difference I observed when I moved from the DC area to San Diego back in 2001 was the huge jump in the number and the quality of the SoCal Masters and Grandmasters players. The relative ease of cashing is difficult to compare since larger fields equates to deeper payouts.

One thing I remember from my Maryland days...we loved going over to VA and taking their money. I imagine the NC folks feel the same! Three cheers for VA!!! ;)



you've been gone to long... va is easy money no more.

for all pdga events with ratings posted for 2007:
average last cash in open:
NC (28 events) 976.81
CA (29 events) 976.95
VA (19 events) 978.05

... so it appears that NEITHER NC or CA is the most difficult place to cash. (my guess would be OR- they seem to have a high ratio of top guns to mullets)




Last cash in MI was 983.15 rated round for 40 tournament. There were about half of those tournments that had less than 10 players in Open.



So what your saying is it harder to cash in MI than any of these states where people thinks its hard to cash??? :o:eek: :D

No I am saying that in MI they payout less spots than any of those other states. Atleast half of the tournments had 10 players or less and 8 tournments had 5 people or less so there were only one or two players that cashed. I learned that MI has a lot of small tournments.

here's an update with some #s run by _mp3_ who can no longer post on the message board but finds this stuff interesting...

�What it would take to win 2007�:

To get last place cash � calculated for 40% payout
CA Pro � 980
MI Pro � 982
NC Pro � 982

To get 2nd place (must beat this to win)
CA Am � 979
MI Am � 972
NC Am � 971


Also, average field size
CA Pro � 21
MI Pro � 13
NC Pro � 17

CA Am � 27
MI Am � 22
NC Am � 24

What about Florida? I would think they might have a pretty solid Pro field.

the thing about most places is small fields.

It is much harder to cash in a field with 5 top players and 12 total players than it is a field with 10 top players and 50 total players.

I would say NC was a lot harder to cash in 3 years ago back than it is now. 3 years ago, you had Frizzaks, Schweb, JJ, LL, Walt, McRee, Johansen, Hofmann, CLee and GTW among others. Nowadays, it's pretty much Schweb, Hofmann (who isn't playing as much), Johansen, and the rest are simply either not playing, or not playing as much. Plus Bard isn't here, Walt isn't playing, LL can play Masters....

It's EASIER to cash in NC than it has been. So I don't think your theory holds water.

Calculating the last cash rating isn't necessary. Just take the average rating of each field since the last cash rating will on average be in the same relation to the field average rating. Statistically, a player at or below the average rating of the field is more likely to cash the fewer the number of rounds. Based on the states being discussed here, it should be easier to cash in Michigan which has quite few more 2 versus 3 or 4 round events than NC, CA, TX, OR or FL with VA being second to MI. Of course, most states in the midwest and northeast have many more 2 round versus 3 or 4 round events making it easier to cash in these areas.

Now, if you're a player who is better than the average of your field, it's better to play in events with more than 2 rounds to increase your odds. Thus, the best players should cash more often in places like NC or CA.

Chuck do you have that really long post you made about why it is harder to cash in NC than anywhere?

Kirk refers to it all the time and I've never seen it and it def. would apply to this discussion.

I might have said that but I don't remember in what context or thread topic I might have done it. I know I've occasionally done yearend stats by state taking the average of the top 10 player ratings and maybe NC was a hair higher than CA that year I did it. I'm going to try and do more yearend comparison stats for the new mag and the updated website when it's ready.

for all pdga events with ratings posted for 2007:
average last cash in open:
NC (28 events) 976.81
CA (29 events) 976.95
VA (19 events) 978.05

... so it appears that NEITHER NC or CA is the most difficult place to cash. (my guess would be OR- they seem to have a high ratio of top guns to mullets)




Last cash in MI was 983.15 rated round for 40 tournament. There were about half of those tournments that had less than 10 players in Open.



So what your saying is it harder to cash in MI than any of these states where people thinks its hard to cash??? :o:eek: :D


Ohio... 974, 32 events, averaged 13 per event. I noticed that the lower the number of Open players in Ohio, the easier it was, the bigger the field the tougher it was. Number really dragged down by the D-Tiers which all averaged around 940ish, and I think Ohio was the only state with any more than 1 D-Tier for developmental new communities.


-Chris.

of course, this all assumes that the skill level of a 990-rated golfer is the same across the nation... I personally believe that different areas have different levels of participation, so the ratings you're looking at could potentially be skewed one way or another.

My theory is supported only by other theories... but the circumstantial evidence makes sense, at least to me. In some areas of the country, lower-skilled players register with the PDGA and play many tournaments. Other areas have relatively few players like that, if any. This affects rated rounds because of the variance in the number of lower-end propagators factored into the equation. The scores of newer, less skilled and less experienced players are more likely to fluctuate greatly based on factors that wouldn't affect a seasoned pro. The more of that type of player you have being factored into your ratings, the less accurate they can be.

It's not a bad thing, but it *definitely* plays into the ratings calculations, by the sheer math of the thing. It's entirely probable that an area of one type might have a lower average cash rating simply because of the type of golfers that typically play in that area's rated events. I'd be very interested to see some stats that compare rated rounds from the game's most consistent players, as they travel to different parts of the country. It's not an absolute, but I would be very surprised if a trend didn't pop out of those numbers.

If you don't like that theory... think about the types of courses/terrain that exist across the country and how that could easily play into how a given 990-rated golfer plays at each course. is he used to that type of terrain? did he have to adjust? how did that affect his play and therefore the ratings given to everyone else's rounds? Does this area typically have a large number of traveling (playing "blind") players? makes ya think... well at least it makes me think :D

aside from the affected ratings, the skill-level balance of tournament players in different areas also affects the number of players "playing up", which in turn directly affects how hard it is to place or "cash". more food for thought :cool:

I've been to different parts of Ohio with distinctly and completely different groups of propagators, same for parts of Michigan, and as far north as Wisconsin... and usually I can tell, regardless of region, what my rating will come in at based on how I felt like I played. There might be some validity in what you're saying, but it doesn't feel like it to me based on personal experience.

florida is pretty hard to cash in also. every event is at least 3 rounds, and with kenny,johne mccray,gg, bubis, and hosfeld, occasionaly playing open, not just cashing is a problem, but it is super tough to win!

I've been to different parts of Ohio with distinctly and completely different groups of propagators, same for parts of Michigan, and as far north as Wisconsin... and usually I can tell, regardless of region, what my rating will come in at based on how I felt like I played. There might be some validity in what you're saying, but it doesn't feel like it to me based on personal experience.


I wonder if your "seat of the pants" rating would be as accurate in Texas, CA or NC (the areas that people claim are harder to cash in)... plus, if you guess 975 and it ends up being 980 or 970, you were close and probably would accept that as an accurate-enough guess. It definitely is accurate enough for that purpose, but a 10-point variance in rating would weigh heavily on the calculations attempted in this thread :)

I've been to different parts of Ohio with distinctly and completely different groups of propagators, same for parts of Michigan, and as far north as Wisconsin... and usually I can tell, regardless of region, what my rating will come in at based on how I felt like I played. There might be some validity in what you're saying, but it doesn't feel like it to me based on personal experience.


I wonder if your "seat of the pants" rating would be as accurate in Texas, CA or NC (the areas that people claim are harder to cash in)... plus, if you guess 975 and it ends up being 980 or 970, you were close and probably would accept that as an accurate-enough guess. It definitely is accurate enough for that purpose, but a 10-point variance in rating would weigh heavily on the calculations attempted in this thread :)


You make a very good point, acknowledged. I am usually off 3-5 points in one direction or the other, an in this thread it would definitely make a huge difference.

Missouri came out 981 (last cash) for Open, and 968 for Masters, at least with quick math. Only 10 events, one of which was an NT, and one was an A-tier. Only 8 rated events for Masters....two of the events did not have Masters divisions. The Wide Open helped out a great deal....1000 average rated rounds needed for last cash there (ok, 999.75).

Chap

There are many places where I believe the hardest place to cash is where ever I'm playing :)

Missouri came out 981 (last cash) for Open, and 968 for Masters, at least with quick math. Only 10 events, one of which was an NT, and one was an A-tier. Only 8 rated events for Masters....two of the events did not have Masters divisions. The Wide Open helped out a great deal....1000 average rated rounds needed for last cash there (ok, 999.75).

Chap


Ohio actually had five events right up near that 1000 line, problem is we had just as many at 945 level lol.

It is harder for me to cash in California since I have not been there in about 6 or 7 years and have never played a complete course there either.

It is harder for me to cash in California since I have not been there in about 6 or 7 years and have never played a complete course there either.



That's okay, Se�or Mule.....you just keep building places to cash in NC. :D

what about TX, I have seen sponsored and unsponsored players from the Carolinas come here and not cash. It could work vice versa there as well but thats my observation.

what about TX, I have seen sponsored and unsponsored players from the Carolinas come here and not cash. It could work vice versa there as well but thats my observation.



I think a lot of the difference in TX vs. NC scores could easily be due to the differences in courses between the two places. I know that after learning to play disc golf in Texas, I found myself getting beat up by courses in NC, MA, VA, WV, etc... the first times I played them. There is an art and finesse to playing through tight woods/elevation shot after shot after shot that is hard to learn in Texas.

I'm not saying there aren't wooded holes in Texas, but the woods are different and the shots needed to play consistently well there are different.

I think the same is true going from the Mid-Atlantic/East-Coast to Texas. There is just a different mentality needed to go into the courses and play well because -- as a whole -- they have a different feel to them. Some of that is the physical landscape, some of that can be the Texas heat in the summer (vs. the cold of Mid-Atlantic in the winter), some of that can be Texas wind kicking up during a tourney in a way you seldom see in NC... etc... playing conditions as a whole are different.

I just remember how much it messes with my game every time I play in Colorado -- so much less air resistance at altitude that I am always misjudging where my drives will go. Local pros have a huge advantage there over visitors who haven't acclimated to the differences in flight and/or changed their disc weights accordingly.

I think the degree of variance from state-to-state is lessening as course designs continue to advance and more and more top tier players come to the game who have broad experience playing courses across the country. Playing different terrains and conditions improves your mental game at both the conscious and subconscious levels, and helps you make much better decisions coming on the course.

Even just little things that come out of experience can help a lot as you travel different places. The first disc golf roadtrip I made I was terribly unprepared for. But my game has improved as I've learned to keep better equipment in the car -- cleats for nasty mud and teeboxes, a couple of DX discs for rainy days, extra layers (that don't restrict my throwing motion) and good mittens for cold rounds, etc... Even just the difference in players being away from home -- and therefore being away from their full choice of gear if conditions change -- can affect tournament outcomes. And I think TX vs. NC is a great example of two places with very different courses and conditions that would translate into making it harder to cash away from home.

While the title of this thread is rather low-brow, the conversation is really quite interesting. Of course, I live in one of the areas being discussed...

Doc what are you doing back in the NC?

Whats up Mikey! I moved back here to open a practice near Fayettenam. Looking forward to relearning the game and seein' the peeps!

I am sure to see you in Charlotte soon.

Peace

glad to hear you are back in the are. it ought to be interesting when you get to charlotte to see all that has happened and changed on our courses
mj

Texas is just as tough as NC currently is if not tougher. In any given B-tier you have 5-10 1000 rated players as well as having Coda at nearly every event as well as McCabe and Yeti. Nolan is also great and is playing more and more mow and JD Ramirez is just a putting fool

Oh and if this was a toughest to win we would be way up there too at probably 1030 avg.

Well I guess that Nate Doss, Steve Rico, Josh Anthon, Jim Oates, Micah Dorius, Kyle Crabtree, Dallas Albright and Gregg Barsby are nobodys.

The avg rated round by the winners in Tx was 1015
The avg rated round by the winners in NC was 1019
The avg rated round by the winners in Ca was 1020

Well I guess that Nate Doss, Steve Rico, Josh Anthon, Jim Oates, Micah Dorius, Kyle Crabtree, Dallas Albright and Gregg Barsby are nobodys.

The avg rated round by the winners in Tx was 1015
The avg rated round by the winners in NC was 1019
The avg rated round by the winners in Ca was 1020




Where did you get that and are you including all events or bigger ones?

Those are just Norcal guys anyway.

Well I guess that Nate Doss, Steve Rico, Josh Anthon, Jim Oates, Micah Dorius, Kyle Crabtree, Dallas Albright and Gregg Barsby are nobodys.

The avg rated round by the winners in Tx was 1015
The avg rated round by the winners in NC was 1019
The avg rated round by the winners in Ca was 1020




Where did you get that and are you including all events or bigger ones?

Those are just Norcal guys anyway.



1030 is about right for b-tiers and above here of the ones have played.

I included all events. Last time I checked Steve Rico, Kyle Crabtree and Micah Dorius were all Socal.

I included all events. Last time I checked Steve Rico, Kyle Crabtree and Micah Dorius were all Socal.



Ah you are right. Anyway I think b-tiers and above are a better reference because there are more pros.

Also I would put the top guys who play TX events up against pretty much every state.

Ok I did B tiers and higher

Tx avg winning round 1023
Ca avg winning round 1027

Jim Oates was added to that list above but he only played Masters last year.

Ok I did B tiers and higher

Tx avg winning round 1023
Ca avg winning round 1027

Jim Oates was added to that list above but he only played Masters last year.



Not too bad considering there are quite a few B-tiers in areas without many good pros or without any at all. Compared to what TX was in ratings a few years ago I would say it is much tougher and all together the pro quality has risen quite a bit. Out of our top guys only one or two were on top 3 years ago.

plus I'll go back again to the regional differences in rating propagators. this ratings system is a good one, but it simply cannot account for the variances that come with each region. a 4-point ratings difference in an average is meaningless. he[/b]ll, even a 20-point difference can be questionable. round ratings are based on who plays the event and what they were rated when they played it. When you have completely different groups of players in completely different regions on completely different types of courses and in completely different types of weather... 1000 in CA does not and simply cannot exactly equal 1000 in TX or 1000 in VA. they're close, sure... but not the same.

There's no proof either way that 1000 is the same or different in different places since there's no independent reference point. And even identical robots calibrated to 1000 rating wouldn't shoot identical scores all of the time on the same course. What stats we do have show that 1000 or 950 or 900 are essentially the same everywhere based on analysis of several events that bring in players from all over like Worlds and USDGC. What is true is that players at the same rating level WILL have slightly different skill sets that can be highlighted or exposed based on the type of holes being played. But this still is not more than 20-25 points different (~2%) unless a course is so unbalanced that the course itself is "unfair" or inappropriate for competition by itself versus being paired with another course of contrasting holes and terrain.

I think we're on the same page :). I was trying to make the point that a 4-point difference in average winning rating doesn't mean much, if anything. If it was 20-25 points, there may be some validity.

What about down here in the land of bikinis, margaritas, and 3 days of winter? AKA FLorida? More world champs live here than anywhere else. As a donating pro I can assure you that it is a bit difficult to cash against Kenny, Garret, John E, Aleksy, Hossfeld, Russel, and the host of other 1000 pluses.

Many of my fellow donators travel out of state to get their first pro cash, it can be a rewarding trip to GA, AL, SC, NC, heck some of the folks I beat regularly go up and qualify for usdgc.

I was trying to make the point that a 4-point difference in average winning rating doesn't mean much, if anything.



I agree, especially when many of those events involve players from more than one state anyway. Also, who's to say that every state will have the same distribution of ratings per 100 PDGA members. There can easily be variances in that.

I think you'll find that it varies quite a bit based on region. Here in TX, it's very common to see ratings in the 700s and low 800s playing lots of tournaments. I've heard from many people around the nation that it'es either very common or almost unheard of. It seems that DG culture in some regions tends to encourage the lower-skilled whereas in other regions it scares them away from sanctioned play. I can say personally that I've played an out-of-state event where Ams were treated very much as second-class golfers (at an A-tier, no less!) yet at every event I play in this area, Ams and Pros are treated as equals (except for the obvious skill differences). If I were an am living in that other state, I wouldn't want to play any events at all... it just wasn't fun.

Ok I did B tiers and higher
Tx avg winning round 1023
Ca avg winning round 1027




For whatever it's worth, I ran the numbers for VA for 2007 B-Tiers and above. Average winning score was 1019 for 7 tournaments, but that was brought down several points by a B-tier that only had four pros show, where the winning average was 993. But that was a fluke. For a fluke on the other side of things, the 2007 Hawk Hollow C-Tier had 20 pros and the winning average was 1026.7.

Hawk Hollow made me curious how the C-tiers would stack up, so I ran the numbers for those for VA as well. Across 11 C-Tier tournaments in 2007, the winning average was 1004, but that ranged from a high of 1027.5 to a low of 977.5 -- a full 50 point spread in what it took to win a C-tier.

The spread on B-tiers and above ranged from the low of 993.0 to a high of 1037.3 -- a 44.3 point spread.

Ok I did B tiers and higher
Tx avg winning round 1023
Ca avg winning round 1027




For whatever it's worth, I ran the numbers for VA for 2007 B-Tiers and above. Average winning score was 1019 for 7 tournaments, but that was brought down several points by a B-tier that only had four pros show, where the winning average was 993. But that was a fluke. For a fluke on the other side of things, the 2007 Hawk Hollow C-Tier had 20 pros and the winning average was 1026.7.

Hawk Hollow made me curious how the C-tiers would stack up, so I ran the numbers for those for VA as well. Across 11 C-Tier tournaments in 2007, the winning average was 1004, but that ranged from a high of 1027.5 to a low of 977.5 -- a full 50 point spread in what it took to win a C-tier.

The spread on B-tiers and above ranged from the low of 993.0 to a high of 1037.3 -- a 44.3 point spread.



of the ten I did 3 were 1044 and one was 1040. McCabe shot well this weekend with a 1081 round.

the HHO is a c tier in name only.

...man there are so many different factors that come into the ratings they truly mean nothing, however they are good for conversation. (ie; all weather related issues, wind, cold, warm... it will be a never ending process to keep the ratings accurate, its up to the TD to report them correctly. some tds don't know how to do that I don't think... maybe they all do.) there are a lot of 1080+ rounds out in texas... cuz ONE guy, like coda or eric gets hot and smokes everyone a round here or there... you cant just smoke people in california, i shot a -16 on a medium setup @ bijou park in tahoe in 05... so did Nate Doss, our rounds were completly opposite, because he was driving like a maniac and i putted like a maniac. the next best score was -9 by anthon... i think there were 8 WCC players there. The ratings we got were beyond rediculous, 1059 if I remember correctly, and I do.
I've played in pretty much everywhere BUT texas... but if I play as good in texas as I did that day... i'll put a 1090 on the board, and so would have nate, its pathetic Its called COURSE statistics, not player v player... there is a Oats has the record at bijou -18 not exactly sure of the setup.. but I think it was the first round he pulled that in mostly shorts. that was the year cam & worm came around McRee & shweb too I think. I am from California, and I can cash anywhere. I will prove this.

...man there are so many different factors that come into the ratings they truly mean nothing, however they are good for conversation. (ie; all weather related issues, wind, cold, warm... it will be a never ending process to keep the ratings accurate, its up to the TD to report them correctly. some tds don't know how to do that I don't think... maybe they all do.)

I see there are a lot of 1080+ rounds out in texas... cuz ONE guy, like coda or eric (or lots of other good players) gets hot and smokes everyone a round here or there...(or that one time coda just played killer every round?) you cant just smoke people in california, i shot a -16 on a medium setup @ bijou park in tahoe in 05 (27 holes)... so did Nate Doss, our rounds were completly opposite, because he was driving like a maniac and i putted like a maniac. the next best score was -9 by anthon I think... i think there were 8 WCC players there. The ratings we got were beyond rediculous, 1059 if I remember correctly, and I do. (27 hole bs is weak....thats what punished the rating)
I've played in pretty much everywhere BUT texas... but if I play as good in texas as I did that day... i'll put a 1090 on the board, and so would have nate, its pathetic Its called COURSE statistics, not player v player.

"Well how could you both shoot so good... we cant give em BOTH high ratings that would be WRONG!"

Oats has the record at bijou -18 not exactly sure of the setup.. but I think it was the first round he pulled that in mostly shorts. (nobody get offended now) that was the year cam & worm came around Mcree & shweb too I think. I am from California, and I can cash anywhere. and to prove my points truth, look at last years CSUMB billings played hot one round, and everyone else played... umm not so good (whole leader card) and he now has A higher rating than I have ever had. and I'm sorry, I watched myles shoot the same score (-12) on the same course as billings and (imo) it cant touch 5 or 6 rounds I remeber. so whatever. ratings are stupid.

you wanna end the feuds once and for all?

I'd bet I can put together a california team.
who knows if I'D even be on it!

...man there are so many different factors that come into the ratings they truly mean nothing, however they are good for conversation. (ie; all weather related issues, wind, cold, warm... it will be a never ending process to keep the ratings accurate, its up to the TD to report them correctly. some tds don't know how to do that I don't think... maybe they all do.) there are a lot of 1080+ rounds out in texas... cuz ONE guy, like coda or eric gets hot and smokes everyone a round here or there... you cant just smoke people in california, i shot a -16 on a medium setup @ bijou park in tahoe in 05... so did Nate Doss, our rounds were completly opposite, because he was driving like a maniac and i putted like a maniac. the next best score was -9 by anthon... i think there were 8 WCC players there. The ratings we got were beyond rediculous, 1059 if I remember correctly, and I do.
I've played in pretty much everywhere BUT texas... but if I play as good in texas as I did that day... i'll put a 1090 on the board, and so would have nate, its pathetic Its called COURSE statistics, not player v player... there is a Oats has the record at bijou -18 not exactly sure of the setup.. but I think it was the first round he pulled that in mostly shorts. that was the year cam & worm came around McRee & shweb too I think. I am from California, and I can cash anywhere. I will prove this.




Yeah Coda has a habit of shooting ok and then killing the course record the next round. Also it used to be really tough to get high ratings in TX but that has faded with the introduction of a lot of new players in our Pro fields. I have seen 6-7 rounds 1060+ (4 or 5 by Coda)in TX snd all of those were worthy if you ask me and many of those events had good players from out of State like Cale, McCabe, or Barry.

I would say Kenny was able to smoke Cali players at De la not too long ago.

6th Annual Coastal Plains Winter Open
February 24-25, 2007
PDGA C-Tier event
Pro divisions $55.00 Am divisions $30.00

Saturday Feb. 23 @ Steed Park in Richlands, NC.
Late registration/check in 8:00am till 9:30am
Players meeting at 9:30am
Round 1 tee time 10:00am
Round 2 tee time TBD

Sunday Feb. 24th @ Steed Park in Richlands, NC
9:00am players meeting
3rd round tee time 9:30am
4th round tee time TBD

$5.00 late registration fee will apply for registrations taken after February 22nd. Add $10.00 for non-PDGA members. Field limited to 90 players. There will be a 1 hour lunch break in between rounds each day. Awards will be presented after 4th round tabulations are done. Waiver forms required. All PDGA rules apply.

You can send yor registrations to:
Melissa Knapp
243 Zachary Ln.
Hubert, NC 28539
Make checks payable to Melissa Knapp. Please do not make your checks out to "Moe Knapp". Although it is a suiting name for her, the banks wont recognize this and not allow her to cash the checks .

When sending in registrations in please include:
Name
Phone #
PDGA #
Division

Online registration is available right here as Donnie mentioned

Right now the parks department for Steed Park is having issues with opening the gates early enough for those start times listed above. They don't seem to want to cooperate with us. If the times listed above change I will do my best to let everyone know. Unfortunately the parks people won't let us know until friday.

...man there are so many different factors that come into the ratings they truly mean nothing, however they are good for conversation. (ie; all weather related issues, wind, cold, warm... it will be a never ending process to keep the ratings accurate, its up to the TD to report them correctly. some tds don't know how to do that I don't think... maybe they all do.) there are a lot of 1080+ rounds out in texas... cuz ONE guy, like coda or eric gets hot and smokes everyone a round here or there... you cant just smoke people in california, i shot a -16 on a medium setup @ bijou park in tahoe in 05... so did Nate Doss, our rounds were completly opposite, because he was driving like a maniac and i putted like a maniac. the next best score was -9 by anthon... i think there were 8 WCC players there. The ratings we got were beyond rediculous, 1059 if I remember correctly, and I do.
I've played in pretty much everywhere BUT texas... but if I play as good in texas as I did that day... i'll put a 1090 on the board, and so would have nate, its pathetic Its called COURSE statistics, not player v player... there is a Oats has the record at bijou -18 not exactly sure of the setup.. but I think it was the first round he pulled that in mostly shorts. that was the year cam & worm came around McRee & shweb too I think. I am from California, and I can cash anywhere. I will prove this.




Yeah Coda has a habit of shooting ok and then killing the course record the next round. Also it used to be really tough to get high ratings in TX but that has faded with the introduction of a lot of new players in our Pro fields. I have seen 6-7 rounds 1060+ (4 or 5 by Coda)in TX snd all of those were worthy if you ask me and many of those events had good players from out of State like Cale, McCabe, or Barry.

I would say Kenny was able to smoke Cali players at De la not too long ago.



I could say I Didn't lose to kenny the first time I played him in florida LOL!

haha, sorry i had to... ya keen y blew everone out... but thats dela... have you played dela?

This is slightly askew of topic, but for what it's worth, I was looking at the top finishing scores from the two A-Tier Am-tournaments last weekend. The Dogwood Crosstown Classic in Raleigh, NC, and the Memorial in AZ.

The winner in Advanced in NC averaged 1002.5 (would have been 1007.25 if he hadn't gotten stroked for miscounting his score). The next six people (2nd, plus a 5-way tie for 3rd) all averaged above 970. The total number of advanced players was ~55.

The Memorial had twice as many advanced players, and yet there were only three people above 970, with the first-place winner in the mid-980s...

As another interesting note, there were only three rounds above 1000 at the Memorial, and 11 rounds (from 8 different players) above 1000 at the Dogwood Crosstown.

t stands to reason that there would have been more high scores at the Memorial, with twice as many advanced players...

The easiest logic is that golfers in and around NC play advanced longer before moving up -- or that more of their sub-970 pros took advantage of the option to play-down to Advanced. Thoughts?

(open the floodgates of crack-monkey hypotheses and coastal rivalry. wheee.)

It's easier for me to cash in the poker tournaments on Saturday night in Cali. I didn't cash in the only poker tournament I played in NC.

What was the average rating of the Advanced division at both places? The Memorial doesn't offer Intermediate so many more of them play up for the experience let alone the fact that every Am who entered this year got their money's worth in the player pack so your skill level or how well you played made less of a difference there.

interesting thoughts tim...
these arent the best indicators but if you look at the average pdga # (helps dictate how long they've been playing) they are comparable for both events (would be a bit different without yours and yahn's 20000s # in there)

all #s are for top 10 of both events

XTOWN MEMORIAL
28435 28365

Showing that on average the top 10 was newer than the memorial

Average rating of the top 10 (note 2 guys are so new in the crosstown that they didnt even have ratings)

XTOWN MEMORIAL
955 948

This shows that on average the xtown had higher rated ams

Basically it would lead me to believe that the top 10 from both events are comparable with the NC event having slightly newer and higher rated guys on average.

Finally... here are the average ratings for the entire top 10 for all rounds for each event...

XTOWN MEMORIAL
964 973

So as someone who has played in a few different places what do you think Tim... is the competition level harder/higher in NC? I know the crazy wind changed things a bit from the norm im sure.

didnt see your question chuck... not sure if it helps to look at the whole field like you said since theres no intermediate offered at the memorial but there still doesnt appear to be too big of a difference

Average rating for everyone in the tourney...
Memorial - 911 (93 w/ rating 9 without)
Crosstown - 928 (49 with rating 7 without)

Well, since I've only played in a dozen PDGA tournaments -- though that spans years 2002-2008 and in seven different states -- I don't know that I am the best judge, but I would initially say that I was very impressed/surprised by the level of play in NC for the Dogwood. It also may be that it was the first A-tier I've been to, and that upped the level of play considerably.

I took a four year hiatus from disc golf -- summer of 2003 through summer of 2007 -- and I also don't know how much that gap affects my perception of places. Before I took a break, I won a couple of advanced b-tier tournaments up in Massachussetts -- and there, the level of competition was definitely a lot lower than in Texas, or VA/NC/MD -- but that was pre Marshall-Street days. There in 2002/2003, if you had a hot day and shot 950-level golf, you would likely win advanced and might even cash in pro.

I thought about moving up to Pro at the time, but knew I was moving away to places where that wouldn't begin to cut it. Then, between devotion to playing Ultimate and various injuries, I took my break from disc golf. So it was just as well I didn't move up at the time.

So while I've played in a lot of places, there are too many variables and too few data points for me to feel like I can make any valid, grand observations. However, anecdotally, I'd say NC, TX, VA/MD, MA, in descending order of difficulty to win advanced/cash in pro. In large part, you could also look at that as a descending order of disc golf player density in each region as well...

Which leads me to think that a general theory of difficulty cashing/placing may be in order: the greater the density of disc golf players in a given region, the harder it is to winAdv/cashPro at any given tournament.

Which leads me to think that a general theory of difficulty cashing/placing may be in order: the greater the density of disc golf players in a given region, the harder it is to winAdv/cashPro at any given tournament.


I ran these numbers recently, which shows the density of players rated > 969 per capita of the states:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Players Pros/
&gt;969 Million State
1 126 3.5 Delaware
2 57 2.4 Oregon
3 43 4.9 Colorado
4 42 2.3 Iowa
5 38 3.8 Oklahoma
6 27 5.7 Kansas
7 26 7.0 North Carolina
8 26 4.7 Wisconsin
9 26 3.4 Minnesota
10 23 4.5 Kentucky
11 21 3.5 South Dakota
12 21 2.2 Michigan
13 21 1.6 Tennessee
14 19 5.3 California
15 19 3.0 Virginia
16 19 1.7 Alabama
17 17 4.0 North Dakota
18 16 5.4 Washington
19 15 3.3 Utah
20 14 5.1 South Carolina
21 14 2.3 Texas
22 14 2.2 Florida
23 13 1.0 Arizona
24 12 2.1 Maine
25 12 2.1 Georgia
26 11 2.5 Indiana
27 8 9.4 Maryland
28 7 2.7 Missouri
29 6 1.7 New Mexico
30 6 0.7 Nevada
31 6 0.3 Connecticut
32 5 2.0 Nebraska
33 4 2.0 Ohio
34 4 1.4 Illinois
35 4 1.4 Vermont
36 4 0.6 Arkansas
37 3 3.8 Mississippi
38 3 2.3 Idaho
39 3 1.7 Montana
40 3 0.7 Pennsylvania
41 2 3.1 Rhode Island
42 2 1.4 New Hampshire
43 1 1.6 Louisiana
44 1 1.1 New Jersey
45 1 0.9 Massachusetts
46 1 0.8 West Virginia
47 1 0.5 New York
48 0 0.0 Wyoming
49 0 0.0 Hawaii
50 0 0.0 District of Columbia
51 0 0.0 Alaska
</pre><hr />

where in the world did you get those numbers from?

I count three in DE.

Where did you get 126?

I used the PDGA site and queries which get all but the top ranked person in a state. For example, this gets 2 thru 24 Pro Men in MD (ignore the web page when it says 1 thru 23):
http://www.pdga.com/player_ratings.php?offset=1&amp;division=MPO&amp;order=rat ing&amp;state=MD

I did this to get the number of Pro Men, Pro Women, Am Men and Am Women who had a rating &gt; 969. This data was retrieved sometime in the end of November, 2007.
Then grabbed the population from Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population)

I put this together during a discussion about wether the move to the new 970 break made sense. I had a theory that in states with a high density of Pros that it made sense, but in states with low density of Pros that it did not. However, I am not sure the data proved anything.

To me there were two interesting statistics. First, I was very suprised that DE had such a high density of top players. I posted a questions about that on the Stick Board (http://forums.stickitdg.com/smf/index.php?topic=2435.msg39078#msg39078), but did not really get any insight as to why. Second, was how hard NY got hit in the numbers due to the population of NYC and the relative lack of courses for that population.

My conclusion was that I should probably look at top players per course density; however, I never ran that data.

I count three in DE.

Where did you get 126?


That number is clearly wrong, It is probably supposed to be 6. I think the 1&amp;2 got added when I was trying to figure out the table conversion.

I was thinking about updating the statistics and realized that right now is a really bad time. A lot of players are not current on their memberships, and probably will not be current until they have to play in a PDGA tournament this year.

December was the ideal time to run those numbers.

Sorry :o.... I resorted the data in excel prior to posting it, and I think it sorted the first few columns, but not all the columns.
I will try to repost corrected data tonight. Here is the summary I can get to today (from another post):

Rank ... Players / Million Residents ... State
============================
1 ..... 9.4 ... Delaware
2 ..... 7.0 ... Oregon
3 ..... 5.7 ... Colorado
4 ..... 5.4 ... Iowa
5 ..... 5.3 ... Oklahoma
6 ..... 5.1 ... Kansas
7 ..... 4.9 ... North Carolina
8 ..... 4.7 ... Wisconsin
9 ..... 4.5 ... Minnesota
10 ... 4.0 ... Kentucky
11 ... 3.8 ... South Dakota
12 ... 3.8 ... Michigan
13 ... 3.5 ... Tennessee
14 ... 3.5 ... California
15 ... 3.4 ... Virginia
16 ... 3.3 ... Alabama
17 ... 3.1 ... North Dakota
18 ... 3.0 ... Washington
19 ... 2.7 ... Utah
20 ... 2.5 ... South Carolina
21 ... 2.4 ... Texas
22 ... 2.3 ... Florida
23 ... 2.3 ... Arizona
24 ... 2.3 ... Maine
25 ... 2.2 ... Georgia
26 ... 2.2 ... Indiana
27 ... 2.1 ... Maryland
28 ... 2.1 ... Missouri
29 ... 2.0 ... New Mexico
30 ... 2.0 ... Nevada
31 ... 1.7 ... Connecticut
32 ... 1.7 ... Nebraska
33 ... 1.7 ... Ohio
34 ... 1.6 ... Illinois
35 ... 1.6 ... Vermont
36 ... 1.4 ... Arkansas
37 ... 1.4 ... Mississippi
38 ... 1.4 ... Idaho
39 ... 1.1 ... Montana
40 ... 1.0 ... Pennsylvania
41 ... 0.9 ... Rhode Island
42 ... 0.8 ... New Hampshire
43 ... 0.7 ... Louisiana
44 ... 0.7 ... New Jersey
45 ... 0.6 ... Massachusetts
46 ... 0.5 ... West Virginia
47 ... 0.3 ... New York
48 ... 0.0 ... Wyoming
49 ... 0.0 ... Hawaii
50 ... 0.0 ... District of Columbia
51 ... 0.0 ... Alaska

Hera are the yearend counts by state for current members with ratings over 969 which does include a handful of ams;
<table> <tr> <td>State</td><td>Count </td></tr> <tr> <td>AL</td><td>15 </td></tr> <tr> <td>AR</td><td>1 </td></tr> <tr> <td>AZ</td><td>18 </td></tr> <tr> <td>CA</td><td>129 </td></tr> <tr> <td>CO</td><td>29 </td></tr> <tr> <td>CT</td><td>6 </td></tr> <tr> <td>DE</td><td>7 </td></tr> <tr> <td>FL</td><td>46 </td></tr> <tr> <td>GA</td><td>24 </td></tr> <tr> <td>HI</td><td>1 </td></tr> <tr> <td>IA</td><td>18 </td></tr> <tr> <td>ID</td><td>2 </td></tr> <tr> <td>IL</td><td>19 </td></tr> <tr> <td>IN</td><td>16 </td></tr> <tr> <td>KS</td><td>14 </td></tr> <tr> <td>KY</td><td>15 </td></tr> <tr> <td>LA</td><td>3 </td></tr> <tr> <td>MA</td><td>6 </td></tr> <tr> <td>MD</td><td>13 </td></tr> <tr> <td>ME</td><td>3 </td></tr> <tr> <td>MI</td><td>38 </td></tr> <tr> <td>MN</td><td>22 </td></tr> <tr> <td>MO</td><td>11 </td></tr> <tr> <td>MS</td><td>5 </td></tr> <tr> <td>MT</td><td>1 </td></tr> <tr> <td>NC</td><td>50 </td></tr> <tr> <td>ND</td><td>3 </td></tr> <tr> <td>NE</td><td>4 </td></tr> <tr> <td>NH</td><td>1 </td></tr> <tr> <td>NJ</td><td>6 </td></tr> <tr> <td>NM</td><td>6 </td></tr> <tr> <td>NV</td><td>4 </td></tr> <tr> <td>NY</td><td>6 </td></tr> <tr> <td>OH</td><td>21 </td></tr> <tr> <td>OK</td><td>23 </td></tr> <tr> <td>OR</td><td>28 </td></tr> <tr> <td>PA</td><td>16 </td></tr> <tr> <td>SC</td><td>9 </td></tr> <tr> <td>SD</td><td>3 </td></tr> <tr> <td>TN</td><td>24 </td></tr> <tr> <td>TX</td><td>65 </td></tr> <tr> <td>UT</td><td>8 </td></tr> <tr> <td>VA</td><td>24 </td></tr> <tr> <td>VT</td><td>1 </td></tr> <tr> <td>WA</td><td>20 </td></tr> <tr> <td>WI</td><td>26 </td></tr> <tr> <td>WV</td><td>1 </td></tr> </table>

Actually, the counts might be higher because I only included propagators whose ratings were based on at least 8 rounds. However, consider that those with fewer than 8 at this level in a year are probably not active enough to impact the analysis being done.

Hera are the yearend counts by state for current members with ratings over 969 which does include a handful of ams;
&lt;table&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;State&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Count &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;AL&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;15 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;AR&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;1 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;AZ&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;18 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;CA&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;129 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;CO&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;29 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;CT&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;6 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;DE&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;7 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;FL&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;46 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;GA&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;24 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;HI&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;1 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;IA&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;18 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;ID&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;2 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;IL&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;19 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;IN&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;16 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;KS&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;14 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;KY&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;15 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;LA&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;3 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;MA&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;6 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;MD&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;13 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;ME&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;3 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;MI&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;38 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;MN&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;22 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;MO&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;11 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;MS&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;5 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;MT&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;1 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;NC&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;50 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;ND&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;3 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;NE&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;NH&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;1 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;NJ&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;6 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;NM&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;6 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;NV&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;NY&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;6 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;OH&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;21 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;OK&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;23 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;OR&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;28 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;PA&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;16 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;SC&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;9 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;SD&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;3 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;TN&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;24 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;TX&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;65 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;UT&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;8 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;VA&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;24 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;VT&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;1 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;WA&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;20 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;WI&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;26 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;tr&gt; &lt;td&gt;WV&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;1 &lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt; &lt;/table&gt;


I believe his whole premise was based on ratings per capita.... not the number of players with a certain rating. ??

Sorry about the first post, the data was definitely sorted wrong. However, I did have a backup of the file. I changed the Players > 969 to Chuck's numbers, but they were pretty close to the numbers I was already using. I also tracked down the Pros / Course / State. I am not sure they mean anything, but at least MDs numbers look better :D.

All the numbers are here so I will leave it up to the interested reader to double check my work.

<table> <tr> <td></td><td>Pros/</td><td>Pros/</td><td>Players </td></tr> <tr> <td></td><td>Capita</td><td>course</td><td>> 969</td><td>Courses</td><td>State</td><td>Population </td></tr> <tr> <td>1</td><td>3.5</td><td>1.1</td><td>129</td><td>121</td><td>California</td><td>36,457,549 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2</td><td>2.3</td><td>0.8</td><td>13</td><td>16</td><td>Maryland</td><td>5,615,727 </td></tr> <tr> <td>3</td><td>2.5</td><td>0.8</td><td>46</td><td>57</td><td>Florida</td><td>18,089,888 </td></tr> <tr> <td>4</td><td>8.2</td><td>0.8</td><td>7</td><td>9</td><td>Delaware</td><td>853,476 </td></tr> <tr> <td>5</td><td>2.9</td><td>0.7</td><td>18</td><td>25</td><td>Arizona</td><td>6,166,318 </td></tr> <tr> <td>6</td><td>5.6</td><td>0.7</td><td>50</td><td>72</td><td>North Carolina</td><td>8,856,505 </td></tr> <tr> <td>7</td><td>1.7</td><td>0.7</td><td>6</td><td>9</td><td>Connecticut</td><td>3,504,809 </td></tr> <tr> <td>8</td><td>1.6</td><td>0.7</td><td>4</td><td>6</td><td>Nevada</td><td>2,495,529 </td></tr> <tr> <td>9</td><td>4.0</td><td>0.6</td><td>24</td><td>38</td><td>Tennessee</td><td>6,038,803 </td></tr> <tr> <td>10</td><td>3.3</td><td>0.6</td><td>15</td><td>24</td><td>Alabama</td><td>4,599,030 </td></tr> <tr> <td>11</td><td>2.6</td><td>0.6</td><td>24</td><td>41</td><td>Georgia</td><td>9,363,941 </td></tr> <tr> <td>12</td><td>3.1</td><td>0.6</td><td>24</td><td>42</td><td>Virginia</td><td>7,642,884 </td></tr> <tr> <td>13</td><td>7.6</td><td>0.5</td><td>28</td><td>56</td><td>Oregon</td><td>3,700,758 </td></tr> <tr> <td>14</td><td>0.7</td><td>0.5</td><td>6</td><td>12</td><td>New Jersey</td><td>8,724,560 </td></tr> <tr> <td>15</td><td>6.4</td><td>0.5</td><td>23</td><td>47</td><td>Oklahoma</td><td>3,579,212 </td></tr> <tr> <td>16</td><td>3.1</td><td>0.5</td><td>20</td><td>41</td><td>Washington</td><td>6,395,798 </td></tr> <tr> <td>17</td><td>3.1</td><td>0.5</td><td>8</td><td>17</td><td>Utah</td><td>2,550,063 </td></tr> <tr> <td>18</td><td>2.8</td><td>0.4</td><td>65</td><td>153</td><td>Texas</td><td>23,507,783 </td></tr> <tr> <td>19</td><td>3.8</td><td>0.4</td><td>38</td><td>97</td><td>Michigan</td><td>10,095,643 </td></tr> <tr> <td>20</td><td>6.1</td><td>0.4</td><td>29</td><td>81</td><td>Colorado</td><td>4,753,377 </td></tr> <tr> <td>21</td><td>2.5</td><td>0.3</td><td>16</td><td>47</td><td>Indiana</td><td>6,313,520 </td></tr> <tr> <td>22</td><td>0.9</td><td>0.3</td><td>6</td><td>18</td><td>Massachusetts</td><td>6,437,193 </td></tr> <tr> <td>23</td><td>3.6</td><td>0.3</td><td>15</td><td>48</td><td>Kentucky</td><td>4,206,074 </td></tr> <tr> <td>24</td><td>3.1</td><td>0.3</td><td>6</td><td>21</td><td>New Mexico</td><td>1,954,599 </td></tr> <tr> <td>25</td><td>1.3</td><td>0.3</td><td>16</td><td>58</td><td>Pennsylvania</td><td>12,440,621 </td></tr> <tr> <td>26</td><td>1.9</td><td>0.3</td><td>11</td><td>43</td><td>Missouri</td><td>5,842,713 </td></tr> <tr> <td>27</td><td>2.1</td><td>0.3</td><td>9</td><td>36</td><td>South Carolina</td><td>4,321,249 </td></tr> <tr> <td>28</td><td>1.8</td><td>0.2</td><td>21</td><td>87</td><td>Ohio</td><td>11,478,006 </td></tr> <tr> <td>29</td><td>5.1</td><td>0.2</td><td>14</td><td>65</td><td>Kansas</td><td>2,764,075 </td></tr> <tr> <td>30</td><td>4.7</td><td>0.2</td><td>26</td><td>125</td><td>Wisconsin</td><td>5,556,506 </td></tr> <tr> <td>31</td><td>0.8</td><td>0.2</td><td>1</td><td>5</td><td>Hawaii</td><td>1,285,498 </td></tr> <tr> <td>32</td><td>4.3</td><td>0.2</td><td>22</td><td>115</td><td>Minnesota</td><td>5,167,101 </td></tr> <tr> <td>33</td><td>0.7</td><td>0.2</td><td>3</td><td>16</td><td>Louisiana</td><td>4,287,768 </td></tr> <tr> <td>34</td><td>1.5</td><td>0.2</td><td>19</td><td>104</td><td>Illinois</td><td>12,831,970 </td></tr> <tr> <td>35</td><td>0.3</td><td>0.2</td><td>6</td><td>33</td><td>New York</td><td>19,306,183 </td></tr> <tr> <td>36</td><td>0.8</td><td>0.2</td><td>1</td><td>6</td><td>New Hampshire</td><td>1,314,895 </td></tr> <tr> <td>37</td><td>1.7</td><td>0.2</td><td>5</td><td>31</td><td>Mississippi</td><td>2,910,540 </td></tr> <tr> <td>38</td><td>6.0</td><td>0.1</td><td>18</td><td>130</td><td>Iowa</td><td>2,982,085 </td></tr> <tr> <td>39</td><td>2.3</td><td>0.1</td><td>3</td><td>22</td><td>Maine</td><td>1,321,574 </td></tr> <tr> <td>40</td><td>4.7</td><td>0.1</td><td>3</td><td>23</td><td>North Dakota</td><td>635,867 </td></tr> <tr> <td>41</td><td>2.3</td><td>0.1</td><td>4</td><td>40</td><td>Nebraska</td><td>1,768,331 </td></tr> <tr> <td>42</td><td>3.8</td><td>0.1</td><td>3</td><td>34</td><td>South Dakota</td><td>781,919 </td></tr> <tr> <td>43</td><td>1.6</td><td>0.1</td><td>1</td><td>12</td><td>Vermont</td><td>623,908 </td></tr> <tr> <td>44</td><td>0.5</td><td>0.1</td><td>1</td><td>13</td><td>West Virginia</td><td>1,818,470 </td></tr> <tr> <td>45</td><td>1.4</td><td>0.1</td><td>2</td><td>29</td><td>Idaho</td><td>1,466,465 </td></tr> <tr> <td>46</td><td>0.4</td><td>0.1</td><td>1</td><td>17</td><td>Arkansas</td><td>2,810,872 </td></tr> <tr> <td>47</td><td>1.1</td><td>0.0</td><td>1</td><td>26</td><td>Montana</td><td>944,632 </td></tr> <tr> <td>48</td><td>0.0</td><td>0.0</td><td>0</td><td>12</td><td>Alaska</td><td>670,053 </td></tr> <tr> <td>49</td><td>0.0</td><td>0.0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>District of Columbia</td><td>581,530 </td></tr> <tr> <td>50</td><td>0.0</td><td>0.0</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>Rhode Island</td><td>1,067,610 </td></tr> <tr> <td>51</td><td>0.0</td><td>0.0</td><td>0</td><td>13</td><td>Wyoming</td><td>493,782 </td></tr> </table>

So NC is top then. Considering population and state size. California and Texas are too big to count fairly.

Not so. NC is too small to consider a state.


So NC is top then. Considering population and state size. California and Texas are too big to count fairly.

Consider this. In two weeks I'll be playing the St. Pattrick's Classic where three of the top five pros in the world will be playing. Of the 57 open players(as of now)there are 34 competitors that are rated 970 and higher. There are 10 1000+ rated players and a bunch of players that aren't rated how they should be, ie: I'm rated 966 but until last update I was 985. I know numerous players who are in the same boat that I am. I'm sure competition is very fierce in N.C. and many other places but I think California is the hardest to cash in. I also think Oregon, Texas, and Florida are difficult as well.

i havent been following this that closely but without question i would have to say florida is the hardest to cash in. kenny, gregg hosfeld, aleksey bubis, garrett gurthie, johnny mccray,bryan moore, and recently dean tannock, are just a few of the people that almost automatically take cash in just about every tournamemt they play. on average a florida tournament gets about 15-20 pros. the 7 guys i named are a third of the average field and 3 of them are in the top 15 in the world.

You forgot one person in Florida. YOU (cashing in 13 events between last year and this year). Comming in behind KC with GG, and Bubis following you at Melbourne less than a week ago. Keep it up.

Done some number crunching and all the tournaments last year and all so far this year average player rating for LAST CASH has been 987.52
This was 19 Pro Events total of 70 rounds

NC

You had to shoot 1007 golf at DGLO to cash this last weekend. Daemon Stahlin shot 3 rounds over 1000 and didn't cash. I was curious if anyone knows if there has ever been a harder tournament to cash in or if anyone else has ever shot every round over 1000 in a tournament and not cashed.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournamen...eRatings=1#Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7569&amp;year=2008&amp;incl udeRatings=1#Open)

Not quite 1000 but harder than NC

I was curious if anyone knows if there has ever been a harder tournament to cash in or if anyone else has ever shot every round over 1000 in a tournament and not cashed.



Maybe USDGC 2006
www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5528&amp;year=2008&amp;incl ude_ratings=1#Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5528&amp;year=2008&amp;incl ude_ratings=1#Open)
I know there are other A-tiers since some people checked on that several years ago and posted somewhere on here.

no cash for 1006 avg... www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=2963&amp;year=2008&amp;incl ude_ratings=1#Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=2963&amp;year=2008&amp;incl ude_ratings=1#Open)

no cash for 1006 avg... www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=2963&amp;year=2008&amp;incl ude_ratings=1#Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=2963&amp;year=2008&amp;incl ude_ratings=1#Open)




RheTTro MulleTT

so far the only 2 posted DGLO and peoria both payed out less than 45% of the field

props to dglo (paid 44%) still though since 50% would've gotten Daemon which still would've been over 1000.... peoria (paid only 35%) would've had an average around 994

I think this was brought up before somewhere else and people decided the only fair/true way to compare would be to pick the same percentage instead of actual last 'cash' since some tournaments pay 45, 50, etc

Charlotte Open 05 i think the first person out of cash had like a 1002 or so average for the weekend.Also i remember Sneeky Pete that year being the same way as well

Cuz' that's what we all really want know:

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournamen...eRatings=1#Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7940&amp;year=2008&amp;incl udeRatings=1#Open)

2005 Zeb cha-ching &amp; zing, Jeff Cahill avg 1001 = no cash
another NC event

easiest of all cash...

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7967#Open

the unofficial round ratings were 915 and 911. i think it had a little to do with the pool of players being so low rated. the craziest part is that it would have brought my 937 rating lower had it been included in the previous update.

i'd have rather my first sanctioned cash be a little more challenging though. i was proud of myself for not giving up after i took a double circle 7 on the first hole of the second round. i shook it off and continued to try to play well while my cardmates starting falling apart and letting it get in their heads.

2005 Zeb cha-ching &amp; zing, Jeff Cahill avg 1001 = no cash
another NC event



2008 B- Tier Zeb Cha-Ching &amp; Zing Jackie Small Avg 1006 = No Cash North Cakalak

Cha Ching (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7387&amp;year=2008&amp;incl udeRatings=1#Openhttp://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7387&amp;year=2008&amp;incl udeRatings=1#Open)

2005 Zeb cha-ching &amp; zing, Jeff Cahill avg 1001 = no cash
another NC event



2008 B- Tier Zeb Cha-Ching &amp; Zing Jackie Small Avg 1006 = No Cash North Cakalak

Cha Ching (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7387&amp;year=2008&amp;incl udeRatings=1#Openhttp://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7387&amp;year=2008&amp;incl udeRatings=1#Open)



12 people with 5 over 1000 what do you expect?

2005 Zeb cha-ching &amp; zing, Jeff Cahill avg 1001 = no cash
another NC event



2008 B- Tier Zeb Cha-Ching &amp; Zing Jackie Small Avg 1006 = No Cash North Cakalak

Cha Ching (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7387&amp;year=2008&amp;incl udeRatings=1#Openhttp://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7387&amp;year=2008&amp;incl udeRatings=1#Open)



12 people with 5 over 1000 what do you expect?



Just iterating that it is hard to cash in NC. I am glad I play Masters most of the time, I don't have that snap you younger pro's do.

well that what happens when everyone else ends up in Easley that weekend!

Easley for you to say.

plus the 4th ended up on the weekend this year, so more folks were out of town.

Easiest cash in the PDGA this weekend:

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7937