So I ran my first B tier this weekend. First round a guy takes a 17 on an easy par 3. When we check his card, we can't believe it so we ask him if the score is accurate and he confirms it. I find out later from a player in his group that round, that he did it on purpose to drop his round rating 100 points below his average so it doesn't get counted. Is there any rule in place against this? Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't seem right to inconvenience his group by making them wait while he makes a farce out of the round. Also it has to be against the "spirit of the game" and that bothers me even more. I checked the competition manual briefly but didn't see any concrete rule against it.

TD has the right to DQ the player for subverting the rules of play which would result in removing the round and having the player dropped from the event. Tanking a round to prop up your rating doesn't hurt other players if it keeps that player in a higher division than their actual skill. But the courtesy violation is where an infraction like this should probably be handled.

It's too late now and was probably too late at the time I found out since it was after the second round that I was told about it. It just struck me as wrong since it's nothing I'd ever consider doing myself.

TD has the right to DQ the player for subverting the rules of play which would result in removing the round and having the player dropped from the event. Tanking a round to prop up your rating doesn't hurt other players if it keeps that player in a higher division than their actual skill. But the courtesy violation is where an infraction like this should probably be handled.



Yes, it does hurt other players ratings. It hurts the other players ratings who are playing in tha that tournament, since his score no longer becomes a propogator. It helps players ratings in other tournaments, since that player's rating is artificially inflated. I had brought up a similar thing when a player took a DNF because he didn't want his bad round to affect his ratings.

If a propagator shoots more than 60 points below their rating, their score isn't used for propagating anyway. So, it's not clear "tanking" will make any difference unless he's one of only five props and only four remain, preventing the round from being rated.

Chuck, I have not been updated for a new rating as of April 29, 08. I have not played any tourneys this year, is that why?

Chuck, I have not been updated for a new rating as of April 29, 08. I have not played any tourneys this year, is that why?



Correct, your rating and the "as of" date will remain the same until you have more rounds to update with.

in retrospect, i have thought about doing this same thing. my rating would be 9 points higher if i had tanked one stroke in a tourney in april. obviously i wouldn't sit there and take a 15 or some such nonsense but a couple to insure that it doesn't count seems plausible.

To me if you tank a round, you're essentially tanking the tournament. If its worth it to you to have a bottom finish to keep your meaningless rating up them go ahead. To me it's all about where you place every event. Wow your rating is great but what's with all those DFL's.

I agree with Montell. Tanking a round to preserve a rating number is pretty immature. If you're going to do that, speed things up a little. Instead of missing your putt 15 times, putt up to drop in distance and then drop in your entire bag, taking a stroke for every disc in the bag!

Unless the tournament is lightly attended the impact on everyone else will be miniscule.

If a propagator shoots more than 60 points below their rating, their score isn't used for propagating anyway. So, it's not clear "tanking" will make any difference unless he's one of only five props and only four remain, preventing the round from being rated.



Those who "tank" do it when they believe their round is bad, but not bad enough to not count for their rating. By tanking, they remove themselves as a propogator. If they played and completed the round, they would have a low (maybe 30-60 points below their rating) score which would boost others in that tournament. By tanking the round and insuring their round isn't a propogator, yes, they are impacting the other players at that tournament. There are likely few scenarios when a player tanks that it doesn't impact the others at that tournament - a player would have to be playing so bad that he was already more than 60 points worse than his rating (so as not to be a propogator), but less than 2.5 standard deviations from his rating (so his round doesn't count toward his rating).

Is 60 points generally less than 2.5 std devs for most players?

A player shooting 30-60 points below his rating improves the calculated round ratings for others at the event. If one of these players decides to tank to prevent that round from coutning toward their rating, effectively hurts the other players by having them not count as a propogator.

The impact of poor play by a gator is that other player's ratings may go up slightly. If there are 10 gators, where 9 gators shooting their rating and one tanks it at 50 pts below, then ratings are inflated by at most 5 rating points. If the gator tanks his round, then the ratings are not inflated. So how again does a player intentionally tanking hurt other players? By not contributing to inflated egos for ratings points that are in the noise?

If that player tanks out on a round rated 30 to 60 rating points below his rating, and you have 30 to 60 'gators at the tournament, it costs you one rating point at the tournament. If your current rating is based off 10 rated rounds, that rating point is going to affect your rating by 1/10th of a point. The number of players actually doing this seems to be pretty small. So on some rare occasion, your rating might be affected by a tenth of a point. You should worry more about your blood sugar.

If I ever have that happen on my card (or, even worse, the card ahead), I will also "tank" the round by peeing in the offender's bag once for each "tank" shot, thereby incurring one courtesy violation penalty stroke for each of his "tank" strokes, save the first. :D

Yeah, right on Ray!!
I don't think I drink enough fluids in any given round to cover his 17 on the hole though. What would that come out to, something like a 5 gallon bucket of Gatorade? I wonder if they sell Gatorade in buckets at Sam's Club or Costco. I might have to look into that.

There are likely few scenarios when a player tanks that it doesn't impact the others at that tournament - a player would have to be playing so bad that he was already more than 60 points worse than his rating (so as not to be a propogator), but less than 2.5 standard deviations from his rating (so his round doesn't count toward his rating).

Is 60 points generally less than 2.5 std devs for most players?

__________________________________________________

the reason i was, in retrospect, thinking of doing this is because my round that was rated 77 points below my rating is still counted as being within 2.5 standard deviations. so to answer your question, yes.

If necessary, I'll resort to other bodily waste products ;). For vegans, those can come pretty much on demand & potentially 17 times in the time it takes to play one hole (though I doubt it would take that many "applications" to stop the behavior).

i think that the main impact is not necessarily about the tanking players rating or propagating, but the affect it has on the others in the group. its not fair to them to play in a group and give an honest effort, while someone else is making a mockery of the game. id bet that the others in the group, either from playing slow or from being annoyed, on average would shoot worse.



If necessary, I'll resort to other bodily waste products ;). For vegans, those can come pretty much on demand & potentially 17 times in the time it takes to play one hole (though I doubt it would take that many "applications" to stop the behavior).



disclaimer: vegan ray's views and actions involving vegan bodily waste, in no way represents vegans as a whole. simply, vegan ray and his own personal views, fluids, and actions.

disclaimer: vegan ray's views and actions involving vegan bodily waste, in no way represents vegans as a whole. simply, vegan ray and his own personal views, fluids, and actions.


AMEN! Anybody who knows me will attest that my views & actions in absolutely no way reflect those of vegans as a whole. If they did, I'd be in the unfortunate position of hating myself!

true that!! VR manages to be neither sanctimonious nor annoying (well, at least in respect to veganism).

If that player tanks out on a round rated 30 to 60 rating points below his rating, and you have 30 to 60 'gators at the tournament, it costs you one rating point at the tournament. If your current rating is based off 10 rated rounds, that rating point is going to affect your rating by 1/10th of a point. The number of players actually doing this seems to be pretty small. So on some rare occasion, your rating might be affected by a tenth of a point. You should worry more about your blood sugar.



Gotta agree. The guy who tanks a round because of poor play should have only one guy miffed at him...the guy in the mirror. He only impacts the other players insofar as they have a good story to tell about that tournament. My mg/dl was 95 this morning. So far so good. I don't know what it is about disc golf. No matter what I eat on the day of a tournament I am always very low sugar when I get home.

It might not affect you rating wise but having to stand around while the guys finds ways to take a 17 on an easy par 3 can definitely throw you off your game. I may finish bad but it has nothing to do with quitting or worrying about a rating.

You don't think that if you have a 25-footer for the win (or last cash, or personal best, or whatever) that some idiot intentionally missing 17 times on purpose ahead of you is going to adversely effect you?

Really, I think you should have stroked him courtesy violations for the gratuitous display -- first one is a freebie, and after that, keep adding strokes -- that way, if would have only taken him half as many shots to tank his score, saving everyone some time.

If you apply courtesy strokes to his 17, he should have come out closer to 30 for that hole... :-)

Wow, I never imagined this would generate 3 pages on the DB! First off it didn�t have any impact on the players in my group as we were on the last hole of our round and they had already putted out. The tourney wasn�t full so we only had 3 players and open holes between groups. It actually took very little time and a couple of the extra strokes were due to foot faults.

With that being said it obviously doesn't justify doing it. I would like to apologize to the TD and the other players because it was just a stupid thing to do. I was having a horrible round and as much as I tried to fight it off it just ended up getting the best of me. My actions showed bad sportsmanship and a lack of respect for the �competitive spirit� of the game.

First off, I found a disc of yours Chad in possession of some newbies and convinced them to give it to me to return. I will have it at the Clash to either give you if you are there, or someone to head it up to Chapel Thrill for ya. Star sidewinder. Also got a Star Teebird of Alex Kiels's from the same group of people.

Second, I personally believe that those who do such an act should be reported and DQ'd, thus donating to the purse with no rewards (ratings for the rounds they take seriously). A recent tourney I attended and played in was to me tarnished by the same behavior. This time unfortunately, it was the TD of the Raleigh Winter Jam, and a former Amateur World Champion and now elite sponsored player. Their behavior severely impacted my game that day, as it was much harder to putt with these guys performing shenanigans in my line of sight and hearing, so that the final round of a tourney where they didn't perform well, didn't count. To this day, an apology for their behavior has not been made, which would be enough for me to forgive them of the negative impact they had on myself, the people on my card, and the several others that identified the poor sportsmanship.

Mad props to you Chad for your ownership and sincere genuineness of accepting the full responsability of your behavior.

Would you ever do it again Chad?

Mad props to you Chad for your ownership and sincere genuineness of accepting the full responsability of your behavior.


Tru dat! To screw up & then man up is often harder than not screwing up in the first place.

Thanks Craig, I won�t be doing that again. I didn�t see the error nearly as much at the time because it�s been done many times before. You can call it �reindeer games� or whatever but it�s the SAME thing when you intentionally eliminate a rated round over the course of one hole or multiple holes. I guess it just usually goes unnoticed because it�s done from the bottom or a lower level card and the players are not in contention. Plus the use of funky shots like rollers, skip putts, etc� are being used to inflate the scores over a number of holes.

That was very cool of you to get our discs back as well. Those were lost about 8-9 months ago at Sugaw. That Sidewinder was wedged about 60 feet up in a tree so I never thought I�d see her again. M. Keatts will be at the Clash so if you can give Alex�s & mine to him that would be awesome.

First off, I found a disc of yours Chad in possession of some newbies and convinced them to give it to me to return. I will have it at the Clash to either give you if you are there, or someone to head it up to Chapel Thrill for ya. Star sidewinder. Also got a Star Teebird of Alex Kiels's from the same group of people.

Second, I personally believe that those who do such an act should be reported and DQ'd, thus donating to the purse with no rewards (ratings for the rounds they take seriously). A recent tourney I attended and played in was to me tarnished by the same behavior. This time unfortunately, it was the TD of the Raleigh Winter Jam, and a former Amateur World Champion and now elite sponsored player. Their behavior severely impacted my game that day, as it was much harder to putt with these guys performing shenanigans in my line of sight and hearing, so that the final round of a tourney where they didn't perform well, didn't count. To this day, an apology for their behavior has not been made, which would be enough for me to forgive them of the negative impact they had on myself, the people on my card, and the several others that identified the poor sportsmanship.

Mad props to you Chad for your ownership and sincere genuineness of accepting the full responsability of your behavior.



With regard to the above mentioned tournament group, I also was to blame for silly antics along with those that you described. At one point during that round, I realized I was very disruptively finishing out the previous hole from the next holes fairway (where you and the rest of the adv lead card were teeing). After an embarrassing stroke call from Captain, I quickly banged my 45 ft'r through a tight gap to card a penalty 3 for the hole :cool:and quickly bowed out of the tournament to the rear of your groups tee pad (to rescue my stash of 90 min's :Dand to deliver a fine LBT TTrim taTToo masterpiece:eek:)

I sincerely apologize to you, Carter, Paul and especially Yahn (who's tee shot I nearly blocked).

I hope this adds at least a little authenticity to your well-deserved win over a very stout advanced field. Nice Win PP!

Thanks Matt for your say on this and the kind words. Don't know if you remember, but you actually said sorry to me at Carter's afterwards (you must have drank a combined 360 mins by then), which is why I didn't call you out directly. ;) It also helped that I went on to birdie seven of the last eight holes to jump Carter. :D

Now if the TD and the former World Champion could post on here and acknowledge the negative impact they had on others that day, I would be impressed! :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Thanks Matt for your say on this and the kind words. Don't know if you remember, but you actually said sorry to me at Carter's afterwards (you must have drank a combined 360 mins by then), which is why I didn't call you out directly. ;) It also helped that I went on to birdie seven of the last eight holes to jump Carter. :D

Now if the TD and the former World Champion could post on here and acknowledge the negative impact they had on others that day, I would be impressed! :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif




Looks like they shot hoTT!

Chad, Your remarks were noble. Anyone including myself can make an error in judgment when having a bad round. This thread is your "reward" for that, so please don't take my further remarks personally. You have done the "stand up" thing.

The point I think is that such activity, while arguably causing little or no harm to anyone else, is still in a philosophical sense cheating and poor sportsmanship. Once one has violated those principles it is much easier to continue down the "slippery slope" where it does affect others more. Technically, it is cheating against the rules determining player ratings which in an ideal situation must take into account ones propensity to have a semi-horrendous round which will count against one's rating.

More importantly, the goal of an athletic event is to do one's best. I feel that an important part of the sports experience, especially for young people, is to instill the desire to do ones best at all times - especially when things are not not going well or when the odds are against us. This mentality is exceptionally valuable in all aspects of life, not just the particular sporting event one is doing at the time. To maintain ones resolve and ones dignity when (temporarily) getting ones butt kicked is truly the definition of courage and integrity, and will lead in the future to many more victories than losses.

There was a phrase I learned while at West Point that I believe is very well said, so I'll repeat it here even though I have since adopted a philosophy of non-violence that many West Pointers would not agree with.

"On the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other fields on other days will bear the fruits of victory"

A certain user has called me out. I am just now responding b/c of 3 reasons.
1. I haven't read this thread
2. The person calling me out is on my ignore list b/c I do not care to read his posts and it wasn't until it was quoted I saw them.
3. I don't appreciate being called out.

First off, did I intentionally take a high number on a hole? Yes. Did I do it so my round rating would be dropped? No. Did I / do I feel bad about it and realized it was something I shouldn't have done? Yes.

However, I don't really appreciate JUST calling myself and my best friend out when there was someone else in our group doing it most of the round as I only did it the last hole when there was no one still playing anywhere near me, when a notable top pro was drunk on the course (not playing) and players were acting like this all day.

I also find it hilarious that the player calling me out talks about it disrupting him, yet, he still won. This player has not said a SINGLE word to me or to my best friend about my unprofessional actions for the very last hole of the tournament and chose to in a public setting simply to make me look bad. Also, if you read the tournament thread under PDGA tournaments (topic Raleigh Winter Jam) you will see no mention of this from him.

This player was also very rude to me at the tournament bugging me about getting his payout early. For anyone who has helped with a tournament or ran one, you know that is one of the rudest things a player can do. I have always viewed that request as the player saying "You are moving to slow for me".

If this truly bothered him I'm sure he would have said something to me sometime between the tournament and now (a 4 month period) and find it highly hypocritical to only call me out rather than all players in a similar situation. Heck, one of the guys in my group posted that he was the one that pretty much started everything. Was he called out? Of course not. It also is interesting that he continually made efforts at a tournament to start a conversation with me two weeks ago. He randomly told me that the hole I was playing was the bowl hole and some other things simply trying to get in my head. To me if he was truly upset by this, he wouldn't be trying to make casual conversation with me.

This same player has also started false rumors about my sexuality and has continually ragged me simply b/c he thinks it bothers me when in reality, it makes me laugh. He has also lied to me about some actions that would happen to me at tournaments that never did - the tournaments he mentioned I was in 2nd going to Sunday and he said something to me about the next day Saturday night and the 2nd time was for a team tournament where a team from his home town was competing. Both of these scenarios were where he was literally trying to work me so I would fail. The first so I wouldn't finish high (and I still got 2nd) and the other where I was competing against his local team.

I've been told by many people that this person basically gets off on messing with peoples minds and the best thing to do is ignore him, which is what I have chose to do at this point.

So with that in mind, I would like to apologize for my actions that day. I honestly felt bad about it as soon as it happened and still feel bad about it to this day. I in no way had any intention of getting my round dropped or messing with anyones head or anything like that. It was simply a momentary lapse of judgment. As a pro and a TD, I should not act like that simply b/c I naturally set examples for people. Trust me, I learned my lesson that night when I felt horrible for my actions.

I've made peace with myself about it which is why I almost didn't post this post. However, I don't appreciate my character being attacked by someone who is simply looking for some reason to say something negative about me.

I would say that I would look forward to his response, but since he is on ignore, I will not read it. It is amazing what happens when you hear both sides of a story isn't it?

Thank God I just broke out the chedder wedges while enjoying all that wine!

BOBert, if things truly bothered you and you had remorse, you and only you should have initiated an apology. YOU HAVE STILL NOT DONE SO. Don't think you reflected that at all in the last four months. If there wasn't a thread created for just this topic, you would have gone unscathed. But alas, it just didn't go that way. Integrity meter didn't budge while you were writing that one. Good luck in the future impairing others.

Oh, and why didn't you mention how you blatantly disrupted Matt King during your temper tantrum in Yadkinville? The hypocrasy may be that somebody is disrupting people due to their intentional misbehavior week after week. Maybe we could call it social inefficiencies, and create a disability protected division next year!

And for the record, what is your sexuality?

*** You are ignoring this user ***

I wish I had that option at a sanctioned PDGA! :D


And since you are obviously doing everything in your power to not read my posts and get all paranoid, at least read Big Wiggie's post a couple of ten times more until something is absorbed. Try sleeping on a print out of it if you can!

*** You are ignoring this user ***



This is the best feature on the message board.

Wow, how did that last post get there since I was on a beer run? Hmmm. Is that your work Bard, I'm not Sjur? I could ask Brent, but I can't remember BS's password.

If it is green, they will come.

Just to be clear, I was referring to certain actions in my post, not individuals. I can say without reservation that I respect every person posting on this board, and that I have made mistakes in the past as we all have. Lets learn from them, not dwell on them.

I'm looking forward to seeing you all bright and early. G'night :-)

G-Night Johnboy! ;)

I tanked a round this year and believe me guys it feels awful afterwards. I took a 29 on a par 3 out of frustration- on the last hole.
I regret it and am sorry to the players around me it may have affected.
I'll assure you guys it won't happen again. Sometimes the frustration gets the best of you out there, but tanking around does nothing for the integrity of the sport, or yourself.

See you all on the course!!!

Scott.Rief.

When do your round ratings not count? I recently had the biggest round blowup ever and shot 117 below my rating? Will this count or do I have to wait a whole year before that stain goes away?

If I recall correctly, all rounds 100+ points below your rating are automatically dropped.

If I recall correctly, all rounds 100+ points below your rating are automatically dropped.



Thank goodness!!!

When do your round ratings not count? I recently had the biggest round blowup ever and shot 117 below my rating? Will this count or do I have to wait a whole year before that stain goes away?


It may not count but its there for all to see for a year. The stain remains, its just not a very obvious one. ;)

When do your round ratings not count? I recently had the biggest round blowup ever and shot 117 below my rating? Will this count or do I have to wait a whole year before that stain goes away?


It may not count but its there for all to see for a year. The stain remains, its just not a very obvious one. ;)



I guess it's time to repress another memory.

When do your round ratings not count? I recently had the biggest round blowup ever and shot 117 below my rating? Will this count or do I have to wait a whole year before that stain goes away?


It may not count but its there for all to see for a year. The stain remains, its just not a very obvious one. ;)



I guess it's time to repress another memory.


Check out two of the older rounds in my profile. I had to become quite adept at blocking out those memories during my less... um... consistent... times.

If I recall correctly, all rounds 100+ points below your rating are automatically dropped.



Incorrect....100+ below usually meets the formula to get dropped, but it's not a guarantee. Tank it up!

Chuck can probably tell you for sure but it is probably something like more than X # of standard devisations from your median round doesn't count.

2.5 standard deviations

100 pts below your rating average of rounds in the next update or 2.5SD, whichever is smaller. And your lowest rated round is now not part of the SD calc starting with the Sept update.

Sorry, but what is 2.5 standard deviation??

Calculate the standard deviation of all of your rounds. Multiply that number by 2.5. If the number is smaller than 100, any round THAT many points below your rating is dropped. It rewards more consistent golfers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/6/3/3/6336e4c48fd253b7a6f552fa2579525b.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/6/3/3/6336e4c48fd253b7a6f552fa2579525b.png


Ahh! The physics/math nerd in me rejoices!

nanook

Sorry, but what is 2.5 standard deviation??



A statistical volatility measure indicating the dispersion of returns, representing the square root of the variance of data points from the mean.

If I remember stats correctly ...
68% of all of your scores fall within 1 standard deviation from the mean of your scores.
95% of all of your scores fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean of your scores.
99.7 of all of your scores fall within 3 standard deviations from the mean of your scores.

Therefore if you completly tank a round or shoot rediculously hot there is a good chance it will fall outside of 2.5 standard deviations from your mean score.

Therefore if you completly tank a roundthere is a good chance it will fall outside of 2.5 standard deviations from your mean score.


Particularly if Chuck's mathematically bankrupt new policy:

And your lowest rated round is now not part of the SD calc starting with the Sept update.


is implemented.

Sorry, but what is 2.5 standard deviation??



A statistical volatility measure indicating the dispersion of returns, representing the square root of the variance of data points from the mean.

If I remember stats correctly ...
68% of all of your scores fall within 1 standard deviation from the mean of your scores.
95% of all of your scores fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean of your scores.
99.7 of all of your scores fall within 3 standard deviations from the mean of your scores.

Therefore if you completly tank a round or shoot rediculously hot there is a good chance it will fall outside of 2.5 standard deviations from your mean score.



What?

Particularly if Chuck's mathematically bankrupt new policy:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And your lowest rated round is now not part of the SD calc starting with the Sept update.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


is implemented.



Of course we know what a math wizard Vegan Ray is when he doesn't know how to measure 10m from the basket...

Of course we know what a math wizard Vegan Ray is when he doesn't know how to measure 10m from the basket...


Emoticon definition of the day: = I know I'm wrong & am attempting to bait my intellectual superior.

I know I'm wrong & am attempting to bait my intellectual superior.



Why thank you!

You are the one who used it to punctuate your post, not I. :D

Sorry, but what is 2.5 standard deviation??



A statistical volatility measure indicating the dispersion of returns, representing the square root of the variance of data points from the mean.

If I remember stats correctly ...
68% of all of your scores fall within 1 standard deviation from the mean of your scores.
95% of all of your scores fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean of your scores.
99.7 of all of your scores fall within 3 standard deviations from the mean of your scores.

Therefore if you completly tank a round or shoot rediculously hot there is a good chance it will fall outside of 2.5 standard deviations from your mean score.



What?


Read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation) or take intro to stats 101.