cgkdisc
Sep 20 2008, 12:37 PM
With the advent of buncrs at the USDGC, I thought it would be worthwhile to list the various types and the reason for the spelling. Buncrs are designed to provide additional challenges for players without as much penalty as OB which is similar to the purpose of hazards and bunkers in ball golf.

Ball golf bunkers, typically sand traps, make the player play a tougher shot but don't directly penalize the player if they can execute a save. We could have similar bunkers in disc golf but it's unusual to have the money and property to duplicate sand traps by digging a big enough hole that would alter the shot type a dsc golfer could throw. Our closest equivalent might be something like a fence or hedge where a player has to play a shot other than than their more common forehand or backhand if they land behind it.

The concept for buncrs is to create challenges where the player loses distance but does not get a penalty if they land in them. Since that is similar to how we play Casual Relief, we created the name bunCR where the C and R stand for Casual Relief but still sounds like and plays similar to ball golf bunkers.

The three types of buncrs we've identified are as follows:
1) The line of play relief buncr is a marked area typically near the pin. If a player lands in it, the player must move back from the pin on the line of play to the edge of the buncr. There's no penalty other than distance. This type of buncr creates the equivalent of an artificial slope by the pin that works like a slope by the hole in ball golf where one side of the hole has a slope where a ball cannot land and rolls away if approached from that direction.

2) The fairway buncr provides a challenge on par 4 and par 5 holes where maybe there aren't that many trees. The idea is to place a marked buncr area where shanked drives might land. The player who lands in it must move to a marked drop zone which is farhter from the pin than the buncr. The drop zone is located in a position where the player will have to throw around a tree or two so the route isn't straight at the pin.

3) The special buncr is primarily feasible on layouts with a bunch of spotters such as the USDGC. It could sometimes be used within 100 feet of the pin or where the full buncr area is visible from the tee. If a player lands in the buncr, they rethrow from the same lie again just counting the throw but no penalty other than the distance they didn't get to move forward. Having spotters is important because you don;t want players to have to walk 300 feet to check to see if they landed inbounds or in the buncr than have to walk back to their lie.

Since marking areas for buncrs or OB is typically done only for tournaments at public courses, one way to provide them for daily play is to work with the mowers. Just mark where the mowers should not cut and pass the word that players landing in the high grass do not play from it and move back on the line of play to the cut grass with no penalty.

stack
Sep 21 2008, 12:04 AM
what about not allowing a run up if you landed in a certain area as a bunker? or in the USDGC case if they threw and went beyond an 'OB/bunker' line they would get it back along the line of play from the last point they went out but they can't run up. (basically limiting movement like being within 10m of the basket)

I've heard several people talk about the idea of fences/hedges/holes and think that could be cool if money was no object as you had mentioned but would think that not allowing a run-up could help do the same thing.

was this option ever mentioned?

really interested to see how this works (guess doubles will be the guinea pig and i'll get to see first hand).

pnkgtr
Sep 21 2008, 12:08 AM
I always thought a large area of river rock would be a good obstacle. No run-up, just plant your feet the best you can and throw. I think a large area of sand would be problematic too.

cgkdisc
Sep 21 2008, 12:11 AM
Any rule that restricts a thrower's shot motion or style has been tried a few times in the past but doesn't appear to be the right direction to take among designers who have been polled on this various times. If a bunker naturally restricts a run-up such as an area of boulders spaced a foot or two apart, then that type of bunker is fine because a rule doesn't prevent the run-up.

cgkdisc
Sep 21 2008, 12:15 AM
Yes, sand, pebbles and even mud (which doesn't get relief as in the older rules) areas can reduce traction if someone lands in that area. There's still a skill to locating these types of bunkers and buncrs so they produce the appropriate challenge and risk/reward scenario.

keithjohnson
Sep 21 2008, 02:08 AM
You are saying there is no penalty, but technically there is in the aspect of OB, in that you are adding a stroke to the score without moving anywhere (on hole 10), which is almost the same as last year and in '06 where you just moved up to the tree if you missed landing inbounds.

So in essence it is MORE punitive, because at least from the tree you had the ability to end up at the basket with your next throw for a chance at par.

I like the way they were used at Worlds in Highbridge, but don't like how it seems they are going to be used at USDGC.

Was there any thought given to making landing in the bunCR's next shot from the tree?

cgkdisc
Sep 21 2008, 09:14 AM
I think Harold wanted to use just one type of buncr to keep things simple for the first year they are used at the USDGC. Maybe other types will be used in the future based on how it goes this year. We talked about a few other potential buncr locations when we played such as the line of play type used at Highbridge on the high side of the hole 8 basket for example. On 10, you can "easily" throw a short shot up to the left side of that tree and be inbounds with no penalty and then try to park the second shot for a three.

ChrisWoj
Sep 22 2008, 12:41 AM
I don't like it :( I liked the strict punishments for inaccurate shots at USDGC. Gave the course a really special feel. I liked the idea at High Bridge at MidNats a few years ago with the green BunCRs... but this doesn't seem to be an improvement. Everyone plays the same course anyway, Winthrop Gold was badass as it was.

Can't wait to play it next year in a tournament setting and hopefully its back to normal.

cgkdisc
Sep 22 2008, 12:52 AM
It's interesting that some feel it will be more strict so I guess we'll see. It's really little different from earlier USDGCs where on 888 you had to retee with the penalty. In recent years only some holes have had reteeing with penalty such as 3 and 17. The type of buncrs they are using are limited to events with lots of spotters which is mainly the USDGC. I prefer the greenside LOP and drop zone buncrs which are the only ones that would be functional for any other events besides the USDGC.

sandalman
Sep 22 2008, 10:37 AM
whatever happened to play it where it lies? in some ways, reading the descriptions made me think of candyland.

cgkdisc
Sep 22 2008, 10:54 AM
You mean like how ball golfers get to move their ball out of water hazards and play them on the line of play as far back as they want or play from the original lie? Or how they can move a lie up to two club lengths to the side taking an unplayable? Yes, those actions involve a penalty to go with it.

We don't throw it where it lies in our sport so that ship sailed long ago. The fact we don't play the shot from the ground dictates development of alternative structures to enrich the design elements to provide similar challenge in our game. We haven't had the resources to duplicate the types of bunkers available and slopes on greens that are available in ball golf. However, those elements enrich their game and buncrs are a way to fill that challenge gap in disc golf and do it in a way that can be emulated at low cost.

sandalman
Sep 22 2008, 11:04 AM
its just frustrating cuz all of these "problems" could be solved with design/landscaping. the way we're headed, we'll need a convoy of 18 wheelers to transport our courses from town to town. more like a circus.

Sep 22 2008, 05:20 PM
like a circus.



Sounds like the pdga to me.....

Drew32
Sep 23 2008, 12:34 AM
We used the Buncrs on one of the holes during the Nicholasville open this last time around. (Lyle is a big Chuck Kennedy fan). It was on one of the temporary holes we made to expand the local 9 hole course into 18 for the tournament. It was your run of the mill long wide open hole with houses on the left. We created a large buncr on the left to steer people away from the houses and made a drop zone in the middle of the fairway lined up with the tee side edge of the buncr. It didn't create much of a penalty unless you happened to land near the leading edge toward the basket. Then you might be looking at your shot being moved back 150 extra feet. There were also 2 Buncers by the pin, one to the left and one behind which if you landed in them you'd be moved back 40 feet from the basket. The end result was that it added color to an otherwise average hole.
The main complaint was not that it was gimmicky but that some people could not see where the line was ,even with flags and paint , from the tee.

cgkdisc
Sep 23 2008, 12:38 AM
The main complaint was not that it was gimmicky but that some people could not see where the line was ,even with flags and paint , from the tee.


Of course, the same issue could occur when trying to mark OB. At least the penalty wasn't as high with buncrs. ;)