hopefully this has not been discussed before, but I could not find any information on this

What is the opinion of course designers when it comes to pin placements close to water/other OB (say within 20 ft.)?

I understand that most of the time, you want to give players a standard putting green, but as disc golf continues to grow and players continue to get better, having tough pin placements will force more precise up shots, or much tougher putts. I understand the Renny Gold course is using these ideas, but was curious if other course designers agree and if more championship caliber courses should start incorporating these ideas.

Water and OB both up the level of risk vs. reward which is a good thing to have on a course.
One thing to be aware tho is that with OB next to the pin that a player can purposely throw OB next to the pin to take a drop in 3 (that is if the pin is reachable on the drive. In which case at least in tournaments (where it can be enforced) you can implement drop zones wherein the OB is behind the basket on a long put or call for a re-tee.

that is a good point, but I was thinking more along the lines of the premier/gold level courses - in which case any pro would hopefully not purposely cost themselves a stroke, but it is certainly something to consider if the required shot is really hard, or they are happy to take the stroke for some given reason

That's why they had OB drop zones at Winthrop on Hole 17, and this year, the Buncr rule and no drop zone. Other wise, it would be easy for a drop in three.

I generally like this feature and have a couple on my private course. I think designers must keep in mind the type of O.B. and the skill level of the course, though---if the O.B. is a lake and the course frequented by beginners, they may be losing a lot of discs.

We get a little bit of criticism but a lot more approval for exciting pin placements (based on anonymous surveys after tournaments). I was pleased to see Houck, in an article in FDM about great holes, praising one whose basket was 5' from an O.B. creek.

But for some reason, you never see OB on a ball golf green. I wonder why?

It's a different sport?

Come to think of it, ball golf greens seldom have trees...or boulders....or cliffs.....or steep slopes....

And now that I think of it, our greens don't....uh....do we have greens? We have a "no-falling-putt" 10-meter area we sometimes call a green. We have a much larger area in which we use putters. Both of which are often brown and eroded, not green. And quite different from ball golf greens.

Sport has nothing to do with it. Both sports are based on game dynamics that provide a fair balance of risk/reward characteristics relevant to the equipment and player capabilities in the game. If you used ball golf dynamics to set our OB parameters, it wouldn't be anywhere near the green. We discussed on another thread that the 50% point for BG pros making putts is about 5 feet away and for disc golf maybe 40 feet. If OB is no closer than say 15 feet in BG, which is three times farther than their 50% putting position, DG would have OB no closer than 120 feet using that same metric.

So borrowing ball golf parameters doesn't always make sense. On the other hand, from a gaming standpoint, you need to look at factors that affect the potential for a fluky penalty versus one a player "deserves." We have an elevated basket versus the BG hole in the ground. That means a shot having a chance to hole out will usually have to fly past the target if it misses whereas a putt in ball golf can be hit with exactly the right amount of energy and end up next to the hole left or right if it misses and not go past.

We also have a much higher fluke factor for rollaways on misses than BG. Yes, they have a few rimmers that accelerate away. But every miss in DG that hits the basket has an unpredictability to where it lands.

The point is these differences need to be taken into account for our game design versus BG regarding OB positioning. For example, OB can be closer to the pin on the tee and or one side than the back side because we have an elevated basket. If a player throws short, it's their own fault if they don't go far enough to clear OB. If they throw pin high and miss, they are going to land 15-20 feet past the pin even with the most exacting control using just enough power to hole out if they were on line. Designers need to give them this over flight safe area behind the pin of at least 20 feet and preferably more since the comeback putt for pros at least gets close to automatic.

And speaking of comeback putts, if the player lands safely 20 feet behind the pin with OB in front of it, the putter needs some safe area so they can try to make that 20 footer. Based on experience and potential for rollaways, it seems like 10 feet is not unreasonable.

Using the beach hole 6 on Winthrop, they follow these guidelines pretty well plus we're talking about a set up for elite players. OB is in front and beside that pin even though the pin is maybe 7 feet from the water. The flight path mostly comes in from the right side. The key that makes this hole work pretty well is the fact the pin is in sand. That directly reduces almost all rollaways so near miss putts usually don't go OB. Personally, I think a few more feet from the water would be more fair overall. But this is an example, of doing things well with OB for the highest level players. It's a little too extreme for daily play.

"So borrowing ball golf parameters doesn't always make sense". Which was my point. There's much we can learn from ball golf....but areas where we should diverge.

Does the Designers Group (I forget the correct name) have standards for baskets near OB?

I'm just one disc golfer and private course owner, so the world's in no danger of my installing dozens of courses to suit my tastes. Which are that a hole be fun and fair and challenging. Which are, admittedly, rather subjective.

You've pretty well covered the fairness issue. Personally, I don't know if I've played many that I considered unfair; even with OB right behind the basket, I always have the chance to lay up or go for it. If I miss from 20' and go OB, I consider it a poor shot. It's not much more punitive than a hole with a big slope behind the basket; with OB the miss always costs me 2 strokes; with the slope it almost always does (unless I make a great return shot).

One of the questionable holes is on my own course---with the basket on a steep mound near OB, where laying up is difficult. But we've got construction going to make the layups much easier, and players can take their chance going for it.

golf greens do not have OB, but they do have hazardous slopes that the players are well aware of when putting, which can usually force at least 2 putts to get back near the hole and to hole out...

in disc golf, the disc rolling away is partially being unlucky, but in golf, the players understand the slope of the green, and knows if they miss the putt by a certain amount, the ball will almost certainly start rolling, and in some cases, this roll away can lead to OB

as for the discussion, I am mostly interested in gold level courses, with multiple shot holes, so that the player should be aware of what the putting area is like from the tee and can therefore throw a well executed drive to a favorable landing area that will make their up shot a little easier - if said player makes a so so drive off the tee, then their up shot becomes that much more difficult while having to approach the putting area from an unfavorable direction

The concepts still hold true for gold level versus other levels. You look at where the good landing area is on a par 4 tee shot and orient your OB challenges near the pin according to that direction. You can't really make a steep slope that will require the player to take two throws just to get back to the pin. If a player lands there, they can always take an unplayable penalty and play from that lie again which maybe is a 15 ft putt that rolled down the hill.

Getting those design guidelines written up is a project that hasn't gotten underway, just the discussions.

Ball golf courses seldom have any OB anywhere.
A lot of them have water hazards that border the greens with slopes that draw balls toward those areas.

In many cases the Sunday positions of many tournaments bring the hazards very much into play while putting. Rolling by on a downhill 10' (like our 20') putt near a pond can quite easily roll on down the slope into the water on several holes I can think of.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but WGAF about ball golf?!

It's sad that we draw so many parallels to it, while the mainstream ball golf crowd would spit on a disc golfer if ever actually looking our way.

So, that said, design what you like, design what's unique, design what's different. Push the envelope, who cares? You're bound to offend someone, not everyone can be pleased. I try to offend those who can't throw a disc straight through some trees for 200 feet, and those who need a flat clear green for 50' radius so they can rifle a putt with no risk if they miss (yeah, I LOVE risky greens and hallway shots!). I do agree with the fact that a drop zone must be designated, otherwise as stated, you can purposely drop your disc in the OB and take a drop near the pin with only a loss of a stroke (think Tin Cup, right - keep going for it!).

I'm just looking for other people's opinions on how close is reasonable and at what point does it become petty when it comes to having OB near the pin? or do you even have a preferred limit for how close OB should be to a pin?

depends on the shot that gets you there. if the hole is 200ft then i think the ob can be closer even within 10, if the hole is 350 i think there should be a little more leeway, but then if the hole is 450, where most would go drive, upshot, putt,... the pin could be closer again.

i dont think youll get an answer about distance as it has to do with many factors, level of play, course layout, other hazzards, elevation, etc...

i think that you will always run into resistance when the OB is within the circle, that doesnt mean its wrong, that just means it makes people uncomfortable. and when designing holes like that, you have to be prepared for a number of people to be unhappy.

But for some reason, you never see OB on a ball golf green. I wonder why?

its because the ball is usually rolling on the green. the surface of the BG green is our air. the green's undulations are our obstacles in the area of the basket. BG bunkers can be next/very close to greens. DG OB is not a lot different. a drop in putt plus a penalty stroke is not a lot different from a short up-n-down out of a trap.

you want OB close to a green? great! in fact, slope towards it. they'll call it a fast green with a higher than usual premium on accuracy and control. maple hill, one of the finest courses ever, offers examples on holes 1,2,5,6,8 and 18.

here's a nice interview about bunkers from a qualified BG guy (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewrandquistno1.html). bunker maintenance for BG usually translates into foliage maintenance in DG. as course design improves, we'll see more frequent examples of extreme foliage management along with more design attention on the alternatives to foliage for bunkers. considerations at the upper end of the aesthetic scale will make a huge difference.

Where is there OB near the green on hole#2 at Maple Hill?

Hole 2 has 2 pin placements. When it's in the right pin placement there is an OB stone wall that is in play the entire length of the fairway, and comes to within about 20' of the basket.

I like having the possibility of OB near a green or three on a course. One thing, however, is that I don't always like the OB shot to be rewarded with a 20 footer or shorter putt. Every now and then that works, but I typically like to force the shot that missed the basket and went OB to be forced to nail something in the range or 27' to 30'. It just seems to be a good pucker factor putt after taking an OB stroke to me.

That's 'cause your just evil...

Why, thank you my misplaced southern friend. I'll bet your not playing in short sleeves today! Well, me neither, but low 40's aint bad.

Stan seems to lean more toward the "elevated pin with steep dropoff hazards on some sides" versus "OB near greens" in his designs.

Hole 2 Web green slopes down 30' to water. Hole 4 Nest and Web greens slope down 30' to OB. Hole 5 Nest/Web green slopes down to OB. Hole 18 Web Island green with diameter of 50'.Hole 1 Sugaw green slopes 28' to OB. Hole 2 Sugaw green is 20' from OB. Hole 3 Sugaw green is 18' from OB. Hole 8 Sugaw green is 20' from OB. Hole 11 Sugaw green is 20' from OB. Hole 18 Sugaw green is 25' from OB. Renny #1 green slopes 25' down to OB. Holel 4 Renny slopes sharply down toward OB. Renny #6 slopes down sharply to OB. Renny G 18 island green is easily putted into OB.
VERSUS

1 elevated basket at Renny, 2 at Sugaw and 2 at The Nest.

I aint skeert.