I'm sure that we have all played our fair share of courses where at one point or another we just simply could not play a certain hole because it would be unsafe to others around us. You know what I'm talking about, the hole with the busy walking trail on the left, or the softball diamond on the right, perhaps the fairway even crosses another fairway... We've all seen it before. Recently I was on a trip and played a bunch of courses down in FL including a park called "Taylor Lake". It was a cute little park, with lots of trees, a little OB and some water, but I felt that at times it was unsafe to throw for multiple reasons.

1. Pedestrians were walking on the track that ran along the majority of the course.

2. The next tee-pad was only 30 ft or so beyond the basket so the group in front of me was at risk if I were to overthrow the basket.

3. One hole played along side of a group shelter were it looked like a kid was having a birthday party. They had strung up a pinata on one of the trees that was in the fairway.

Granted, I was playing this course on a Saturday and it was packed with both players and pedestrians, but I have to wonder about the wisdom of such a design. I've played many other courses that had similar issues to this one, so clearly this isn't an isolated incident.

My question is this... What guidelines should course designers follow to maintain "A safe distance" from other park activities. 100 ft distance from potential danger? No "Blind" shots into danger? What are peoples thoughts on this subject?

Obviously in a perfect world, we could keep our courses completely separate from all other park activities, and perhaps this is the way the sport will develop, but for now how can we keep our sport safer?

In this imperfect world, we're sometimes left with deciding how much danger is acceptable; how much we want to trust the good judgement of disc golfers; or at what point we'd be better off without a particular course.

I suspect most of the dangerous layouts were designed by people with little design experience---or, obviously in some cases, no disc golf experience. But some other factors you may run into:

* Older course designed when very few people were playing disc golf, so conflicts with other park users were expected to be rare.

* Park changes after the course was built, such as intalling walking trails on or near fairways, which is hardly the designer's fault.

At one time just getting a course---ANY course---seemed worth whatever compromises had to be made. Hopefully we're reaching a point that we can get courses designed and installed to certain standards, or just pass on them.

While in many cases dangerous layouts are the result of old designs leftover from when discs were mostly lids, changes to the park years or even decades after the original course was designed & installed, locals deadset on quantity over quality and just getting a new course put in, and persons with little or no design experience, more and more these days I'm seeing that it really comes down to designers deciding to trust the "good judgement" of disc golfers, and/or deciding that the danger risk is low enough / acceptable.

The real problem is that disc golf course designers are typically experienced disc golfers and tournament players and follow Rule 801.01 Courtesy: (http://www.pdga.com/rules/80101-courtesy) A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present.

But have you ever watched novice / reacreational / casual players on the course? They DON'T wait "until the coast is clear." They think "I'll never throw it that far." They DON'T think that a disc golf disc could ever hurt anyone or cause damage. They usually just don't have any clue about that.

A good course design would remove these hazards from the start, and wouldn't put the onus on golfers to wait on others, to know how far they can throw, and to know where their thrown discs will end up. A good course design factors in where errant shots are likely to land, and avoids having others things at risk in these areas like pedestrians, cars, and other parts of the course. Course designers need to factor in these casual players from the very beginning.

A real eye opener for me was a course used at a previous Worlds course and designed by some hall-of-fame course designers and members of the Disc Golf Designers Group. (http://www.discgolfcoursedesigners.org/discgolfwiki/index.php5?title=Main_Page) I played this course on the Saturday before a Pro/Am Worlds started and it was one of the worst I had ever seen. I was appalled at how this 18-hole course was crammed into what appeared to be a very busy public park, and the many many safety hazards I witnessed at this course on the Saturday before the event ruined my enjoyment of it.

True to point, the 2nd and 3rd hole played right next to sidewalks and public roads surrounding the park � any disc that fell left went out onto a very busy public street. The 4th and 5th holes were bunched tightly together so that it was very easy to stray into the other�s fairway. The 7th hole played right along a main parking lot and I saw a few discs hit parked cars while I was playing through a group. The 11th hole was ridiculous, playing on an elevated narrow path by a pond such that any disc that flies left will find water but any disc that turns over right ends up at the 10th basket and risking the safety of golfers on the previous hole. After playing a fun pro par five hole around yet another pond, the rest of the course traversed paths where people walk and bike, near bridges and a river where fishermen sit, and an amphitheatre and tennis courts where people picnic and sunbathe. In discussions with members of the DGCD group, they didn't think there was any hazard there whatsover, which was again, a real eye opener. If the premier designers in our sport don't give much thought to safety, what chance do we have?

Maybe I am just a Safety Zealot. But one thing is for sure, beveled edge driver discs hurt (I�ve been struck by one from a distance) and in the wrong circumstances, I think one could seriously injure or even kill, and the fallout and negative publicity and removal of courses from such an incident could be very damaging. I do not believe in disc golf courses sharing the land with other park activities. If a course plays through or near playground equipment, shelters or picnic tables, fishing ponds, parking lots, park roads, streets outside the park, or any other park facility, or has holes too close to each other, then I�m going to blast it for unsafe course design. Again, I believe by taking these factors into account during the design and seeing where shots end up, we can avoid these situations to begin with. If a mildly poor shot can easily end up on a pedestrian walking track, or a park road, or a shelter, or the the next teepad, then it does not belong, no matter how infrequently you think said park facility is being / will be used. If it is impossible to design the course in the land given without the presence of safety hazards, then the course shouldn't go in at all. Period.

Gosh. I agree in principle but by those absolute standards, we'd never have any courses around here. Off the top of my head I don't think there's one within 75 miles that meets those standards. There are certainly some that my disc golf life would be much poorer if they'd never been built.

I do like Harold Duvall's statement to the effect of, "Imagine the worst possible throw. Then imagine one even worse."

I think we're stuck with making compromises (though I wouldn't on the playgrounds) until we can demand and get disc-golf-only property.

When I first started in this sport over fifteen years ago, I would have certainly argued for quantity over quality. But I think now we are at the point where dangerous designs do more harm than good. Plus, even ignoring all the safety aspects, these designs usually fail to get adopted by the local disc golf community and can become neglected and fall prey to vandalism, theft, etc. and can become an eyesore for the local parks department and the sport of disc golf. When the neighboring township with 50 acres of primo land for a world class course calls up the township who had to pull a course 5 years later after installing it, one can easily imagine what kind of recommendation the former is going to get from the latter.

Most people seem to think that I envision "the worst possible throw" and incredibly rare ones. That is not the case! Check this piece on disc golf from Iowa Public Television (http://www.iptv.org/simplepleasures/story.cfm?id=2885&type=story&video=video) and fast forward to 2:00...the hole where Mcluen gives the instruction absolutely astounds me - gotta love how a walking path & road runs the entire right side, and a playground sits on the left, where all the bad shots from right-handed novice & recreational players will end up. In fact, while it looks like McLuen parks the hole at the end of the instruction, they also show at the beginning another throw which seems to fly straight towards the playground. If a 988-rated player (a player rating I would kill for, btw) is throwing there by accident, where do you think novice's shots will end up?!? I don't care if that playground and those walking paths are used once a year, that hole just shouldn't be there. It actually says on DGCourseReview that "the playground is OB when children present." Are you kidding me?!? For a Forest City course that otherwise looks really, really nice, this is an unacceptable safety hazard and very poor course design, imo.

A good course design factors in where errant shots are likely to land, and avoids having others things at risk in these areas

I'd edit that to say "where errant shots might possibly land, even if it is very unlikely".

With thousands of players per year throwing dozens of times each, the 1-in-100,000 bad throw will happen once a year.

Here's a tool that can help visualize where you need to worry about: http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/ThrowSimulator.aspx

Also, it's not just the casual players you need to worry about. The best players can make the worst shots. A well-aimed 500 foot "good" throw can be blown farther off course by a gust of wind than a 150 foot grip-lock.

Jeff, your shadow is right behind you! Don't be scared of it too!

To me, the biggest dangers in course design relate to terrain that players are expected to traverse. We're not all nimble and quick, and many of those who are youthful and quick are h|gh as xz|t. I've suffered worse injuries from trip and falls playing disc golf than in any other sport (except basketball, which is the bane of my existence).

Safety of disc golfers themselves is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. A course designed where a clumsy, brittle person like myself couldn't get hurt would be a dull course indeed.

(Though I wouldn't mind a little attention to the first few feet off the teepad, where my flailing followthrough sometimes encounters drop-offs, roots, mudpits, and the odd illplaced sign).

One of the local reps in are area has installed several courses and places tee-signs very close to the left side of the tee-pad. I'm not sure he realizes there are lefties that also play this game. On one course flag poles were put on the very edge of the left side of the teepad and I ended up wacking one full force on my follow-through. Needless to say, I since have realized to take down the flag poles when I'm on the tee. Tee-signs should allow plenty of room away from the tee-pad for both righties and lefties to be able to follow through without concern of an obstruction.

One of the local reps in are area has installed several courses and places tee-signs very close to the left side of the tee-pad. I'm not sure he realizes there are lefties that also play this game. On one course flag poles were put on the very edge of the left side of the teepad and I ended up wacking one full force on my follow-through. Needless to say, I since have realized to take down the flag poles when I'm on the tee. Tee-signs should allow plenty of room away from the tee-pad for both righties and lefties to be able to follow through without concern of an obstruction.

This is one of my biggest gripes too, tee posts or signs are always in the way. Golden Gate park has a nice solution to this, their tee signs are stumps on the ground.

I think it's much preferable to have tee signs near the BACK of the tee. There's nothing on the sign that I need to see while on the tee, that I couldn't remember from just before I stepped on the tee.

On a wet day at Trophy Lakes (pre-concrete pads), I slipped on the tee pad, spun around, and fell full-speed, my head barely missing the 4x4 post with the tee sign in front of the tee.

One of the local reps in are area has installed several courses and places tee-signs very close to the left side of the tee-pad. I'm not sure he realizes there are lefties that also play this game. On one course flag poles were put on the very edge of the left side of the teepad and I ended up wacking one full force on my follow-through. Needless to say, I since have realized to take down the flag poles when I'm on the tee. Tee-signs should allow plenty of room away from the tee-pad for both righties and lefties to be able to follow through without concern of an obstruction.

Yes, Patrick, I do realize that left-handers play disc golf - haven't you ever seen me throw leftie? (I'll assume you're talking about me since I'm the "local rep in are [sic] area [that has] installed several courses"). Unfortunately, this is one of the things that can happen when a designer isn't allowed to do the installation - you get grounds crews (non-players, usually) who don't follow directions explicitly.

Luckily, I saw your post just before I played a school-year-end round of golf at one of the local courses with the campus recreation director - we were playing together so we could inspect the course for maintenance issues before the summer break. There are a few pads on the lower course area where the sign is too close to the rubber mat, so I've asked the maintenance crew to move the mats further away from the tee signs. Since several of the Facilities workers have taken up disc golf recently, they're motivated to help out.

I'll also be talking to the head groundskeeper at the municipal golf course that has the removable flags installed near the pads, to see if we can get them moved away from the pads. We're meeting to talk about placement of some additional basket sleeves, and I'm sure once I explain the increased liability of having the flags too close to the tees, they'll make that change.

Some advice: next time, why don't you contact the person who can fix things directly, rather than complain on a public message board? You're more likely to be heard so the problem can get fixed (that's the point, correct?)

Oh, and until the repairs are made, you might stand closer to the middle of the pad when you throw. That worked for me.

Steve with all the info you have on disc golf ,spread sheets,formulas, and scoring.

Why did you design 2,,, 9 hole golf courses, in you back yard, and force 18 baskets on both courses, that will guarntee a disc golferes gets hit on by a golfer.. ???

Every hole even the par 3s has 2 places to tee from and 2 baskets to play to.This is a intercetion with no traffic light....Each hole we play a minimum of a par 6 and it goes up.
Golf has a natural flow this will be a beaver dam at best...

These courses will not last long, because of design.

This is not a disc golf course.!!
This is what happens when a discgolfer gets paid, and has no ramanifactions for his actions.

When I install a course, its success is based on design, challenge,location,value, and par.
The golf course has trusted me, the disc golf designer, to install a course that will fit with what they are presentaly doing.

There are some things that I cannot be in controll of, like precieved image.
I have seen 4 golf courses that have followed this blueprint ,none are around today pulled...


This is not good for me, when they fail we fail.

After 21 golf courses, I have never pulled 1 because of flow of play or or safety reasons.

I dont get paid up front, I have a performance clause,i get paid monthley, no rounds for them, no check for me...

As far as goat hill ,one of the worst designs on a golf course......

Boring ,no risk, to long for most players to reach the par 3s, baskets too close to golf tee boxes,and bad design......plenty of tweener holes.

I use distance on a hole that has nothing to work with, they use it every other hole so you cant get it...

This course has a lot of potential, that was not used in design.

I do know, that they did not want baskets by greens, but that was not the problem....

Coffee was the culprut ....

But my comments, are from experience.....

Measure twice cut once.......

Is there a list of still-existing Fly18 courses somewhere? When I click the link on your website, nothing comes up.

*

And back to our theme......I just played a newly-installed course, reputedly designed by parks dept. personnel who had never played disc golf. Though on a property with an enormous amount of land, many of the tees were in putting range of the previous basket....or even where, in playing a hole, you might be throwing over the tee to the next basket. Yikes! The danger is only mitigated by the fact that the course is unlikely to get too much play.

Back from fla for a week, my father passed away last wendsday.He had respority problems from smoking those dam ciggs....I am flying back this week for the funeral.My site has been down for 2 months it is working but the tabs dont work.I am doing an overhaul on it.Union sc is the last course i did in oct 2010 it is awsome.Par 71 3 sets of tee on every hole 12,664ft from blue 9,708 white tees 8,301yellow tees. Carts and it has its own hotel on site.If i can help out in any town that neeeds a course bags are packed.

Chow for now..
fly18

My condolences. The list is not that important---not THAT important---I was just curious. I've played River Chase, which is the only Fly 18 around here, and just wondered about the others.

I'll also be talking to the head groundskeeper at the municipal golf course that has the removable flags installed near the pads, to see if we can get them moved away from the pads. We're meeting to talk about placement of some additional basket sleeves, and I'm sure once I explain the increased liability of having the flags too close to the tees, they'll make that change. Good to hear.

Some advice: next time, why don't you contact the person who can fix things directly, rather than complain on a public message board? You're more likely to be heard so the problem can get fixed (that's the point, correct?) It's not just Goat, it's also the other courses that you have overseen installed, such as CSUSM. Sometimes the purpose of bringing these ongoing issues to light is that hopefully other course designers will also think twice when installing tee signs. My advice, insure that safety is paramount for all players, including lefties.

Oh, and until the repairs are made, you might stand closer to the middle of the pad when you throw. That worked for me. Lefties living in a righty world, always having to make adjustments. I got an idea, how about just install the teesigns on the very right side of the teepad next time.

As far as goat hill ,one of the worst designs on a golf course......

Boring ,no risk, to long for most players to reach the par 3s, baskets too close to golf tee boxes,and bad design......plenty of tweener holes.

I use distance on a hole that has nothing to work with, they use it every other hole so you cant get it...

This course has a lot of potential, that was not used in design.

I do know, that they did not want baskets by greens, but that was not the problem....

Coffee was the culprut ....

But my comments, are from experience.....

Measure twice cut once....... Yes, this course (Goat Hill) does play long, thank god, I can finally throw full power at a course in San Diego. I think the fact that the course is very challenging and requires you to step up your distance is an element that depends more on performance of a well executed distance shot than merely risk/reward.

The overall theme of the course, is yes, throw far, but also learning how to throw into strong headwinds/tailwinds/crosswinds, using the right discs. I've learned more about my discs on this course than of any other course (so far).

Hey Patrick - which flags at Goat Hill caused you problems? I was out there last week with the super, and the only one that we thought might be close was #9. I gave him a full demonstration of the issue, so you shouldn't see that happening again (on that course).

Hey Patrick - which flags at Goat Hill caused you problems? I was out there last week with the super, and the only one that we thought might be close was #9. I gave him a full demonstration of the issue, so you shouldn't see that happening again (on that course). I have noticed the flags have been moved around now. Prior to this, I whacked my hand on hole 12. After this happened, I took notice of the adjustment I was having to make on several holes, standing more to the right of the teepad. So I started removing the flags on several holes. Hole 13 was another hole, and I think a few others, i can't recall.

We lefties live in a righty world and out of constant habit, it becomes second nature to always have to make adjustments. For example, going to the bank teller and the pen attached to a cable is on the right side. So usually I slide over without even thinking about it.

At the CSUSM course, at some of the beginning holes the teesign is really close to the leftside of the teepad. It's just another thing that goes through my mind when I'm driving, making sure I'm more to the right of the teepad to insure my follow thru doesn't whack one of the metal signs. Where as a righty can use more of the teepad without any worry. Just another minute benefit for a righty.

There are also several holes at Morley, hole 12 and hole 15, where my follow thru whacks the trees on the left side.

Maybe someday I'll make a course that every drive favors the lefty hyzer, and put teesigns and trees next to the right side of the teepad!

Maybe someday I'll make a course that every drive favors the lefty hyzer, and put teesigns and trees next to the right side of the teepad!

I'd love that...especially if the ground allows RHBH rollers. While not exactly the same thing as a lefty hyzer, my favorite shots in disc golf are hyzer flips to turnover with a very flippy disc, throwing overstable discs with extreme anhyzer and watching them flatten, straightforward L-to-R turnover shots, and backhand rollers.

I'd love that...especially if the ground allows RHBH rollers. While not exactly the same thing as a lefty hyzer, my favorite shots in disc golf are hyzer flips to turnover with a very flippy disc, throwing overstable discs with extreme anhyzer and watching them flatten, straightforward L-to-R turnover shots, and backhand rollers. Just make sure you don't whack your follow thru on the metal teepad I plan to install on the very right edge of the teepad alongside a row of thorn bushes :-)

...........snip................

Most people seem to think that I envision "the worst possible throw" and incredibly rare ones. That is not the case! . It does seem to be case this time...

Check this piece on disc golf from Iowa Public Television (http://www.iptv.org/simplepleasures/story.cfm?id=2885&type=story&video=video) and fast forward to 2:00...the hole where Mcluen gives the instruction absolutely astounds me - gotta love how a walking path & road runs the entire right side, and a playground sits on the left, where all the bad shots from right-handed novice & recreational players will end up.. I have not seen a Novie or Rec player throw 330' (the distance to the first piece of playground equimpent). FYI Justin was throwing from the white tee for IPTV... the Blue Tee he normally would play from was another 100' back.

In fact, while it looks like McLuen parks the hole at the end of the instruction, they also show at the beginning another throw which seems to fly straight towards the playground. If a 988-rated player (a player rating I would kill for, btw) is throwing there by accident, where do you think novice's shots will end up?!?. Short of the playground equipment

I don't care if that playground and those walking paths are used once a year, that hole just shouldn't be there. It actually says on DGCourseReview that "the playground is OB when children present." Are you kidding me?!? . I am unware that we have a OB rule like that ..... The only think close to that is ...for tournaments we have painted on OB line around the playground equipment. It would be a rare for a disc to make it into the playground equipment and even more rare for a child to be there. To my knowledge this has not happened in the four years we have had the baskets installed.
For a Forest City course that otherwise looks really, really nice, this is an unacceptable safety hazard and very poor course design, imo.

First I totally agree about the playground issue as it relates to disc golf course design. I would like to clarify a lot of thought was given to pole 10 and the playground equipment. Safety through-out the course was considered on every pole.

What you may not know that pole 10 is in a secluded back corner of Pamel Park that is found at a park road that dead ends there. While there certainly is playground equipment to the west of fairway 10 it would be difficult to call it a playground. The equipment does not get used most likely to this remote location which in its self is more dangerous than any disc golfer errant throw. You have a deep pond just a few feet away from the equipment and the Winnebago River on the other, not to mention 95% of Forest City children would have to cross highway 69 to get to this park. Not a place a parent would want their child to play. This is more a case of playground equipment being mis-located than the disc golf tees.

This being the case the course was designed for a tee shot to fall just short of the playground equipment. The first piece of equipment is the slide and that is over 430’ form the blue tee, 330’ from the white, and 200’ from the recreational tee. For your second shot I assumed everyone would be throwing toward the basket and the playground area would be to your near left and you would actually be throwing away from this area. That was the thought behind this placement. For tournaments an OB is also painted around this area ( I don’t see where in disc-golf scene it says “when children are present” and that is not the case ).

You also mention the walking path… if it were not for that and the disc golf course this area of the park would not see anyone except for an occasional fisherman. Keep in mind Forest City is not a big metro area with a hundred or more people using the park on a daily basis. Forest City population is 4,000 some people, and only a small percentage of those use the park, the vast majority of the walkers go thru the park between 5-6 AM for their morning walk before work. Does not really interfere with a disc golfer’s schedule. While some people do walk the path in the afternoon it is not a lot of foot traffic and every disc golfer I’ve seen has been courteous to them and vis-versa. It flat and wide open it not like we don’t see each other coming.

The point I want to make is this is a safe installation and much thought went into pole as well as the other 20 and soon to be 26. My every day job involves product safety and safety was a main concern during the design of this course. Having equipment in this area does not make it dangerous…what would cause concern is having children or other people in this area and as I said this is a remote area of the park, that up to a few years ago only saw the occasional fisherman.

Sometimes you can use really short tee signs. Most players only look at them once.