www.pdga.com/course-ratings-by-course

Whatever happened to this page? Did it disappear or move?

In June, the PDGA Board requested that it be removed indefinitely.

why?

Bulk scraping of the data. SSAs are still available by looking at results but not by grabbing a big data file.

This seems odd... PDGA previously had all this info published for free public consumption, but took it down because people wanted to scrape it?

There's a difference between simple consumption and being used for competing commercial enterprise.

There's a difference between simple consumption and being used for competing commercial enterprise.

Of course... But, how do you know what the data was being used for? Also, the data could be used for commercial purposes without having been scraped... Same goes for all the other info currently on the website. By those reasons shouldn't the PDGA just not publish anything for free?

Of course... But, how do you know what the data was being used for? Also, the data could be used for commercial purposes without having been scraped... Same goes for all the other info currently on the website. By those reasons shouldn't the PDGA just not publish anything for free?
I think there's a difference between making it easy for anyone to dump a boatload of data for commercial purposes and making them work for it, and that's what the PDGA is going for. You can certainly take all the data you want, but you can't just get it all in one go.

At the very least, if someone wanted to scrape all the course ratings data, the PDGA at least gets the benefit of all the page hits (ad revenue) of having to go course by course or event by event to get the data rather than doing it in one shot.

As it used to be, you did have to go event by event to get all the SSA data...there was no one-page listing of it all. Nonetheless, the PDGA has not made this info more difficult to get, they have simply made it completely unavailable. What's next, the event schedule no longer available?!?

I just don't understand, maybe I never will. I'm a big advocate of freely available data, where it makes sense. Nevermind the fairly laughable notion that someone could make money from having course SSAs... Maybe I'm wrong, but I just can't imagine someone would be paying any appreciable amount of money for simple SSA numbers (that used to be freely available here). Anyways, not a big deal, but still a step in the wrong direction if you ask me.

I believe one of the key features producing decent sales of the PDGA App is the round rating feature based on actual PDGA data versus some made up rating or handicap system in other apps.

The individual course SSAs had to be looked up by individuals but it was nothing for a script to simply gather all of the courses SSAs without much effort.

OK, thanks Chuck...that makes sense to me. Although, I just realized that a script could still grab the SSAs from pdga.com at the moment...even without the old page that listed them per event.

And thus the problem, not just for PDGA. This problem is out there for theft and commercial use of all kinds of copyrighted or proprietary material on the Internet. With music, it was never a problem for an individual to listen to or gather "free" music. But when it's aggregated and either resold or even given away free by other parties, it's a problem. There's enough money in the music industry to go after pirating. There wouldn't be in disc golf. I don't know what the answer is. As an educator, I would prefer that members and even non-members have access to course related information like it was for a while. But how do you do it in a way that it doesn't get used inappropriately?

Although, I just realized that a script could still grab the SSAs from pdga.com at the moment...even without the old page that listed them per event.

Don't tell them that, next thing you know, our ratings will be in Captcha (http://www.captcha.net/) :eek:

I have the PDGA ratings calculator excel file stored on my hard drive if anyone wants it.

Still seems like no one in their right mind would pay for SSA data when the PDGA provides it (or at least used to provide it) free of charge. That's like saying, "well, we can't provide a list of PDGA tournaments because someone could take that free data and sell it for profit elsewhere". Unless someone is totally unaware that the PDGA event schedule is published by the PDGA for free, no one would pay for such data.

Another thing that comes to mind is...are PDGA's SSA numbers actually copyrightable? I'm curious... Seems like the SSA itself is essentially a fact, a number that simply describes a scoring average for a particular rating for a particular event. This info could essentially be derived from player ratings and scores at a particular event. I dunno, I'm certainly no IP lawyer... Event schedule is certainly more clear cut; surely that info is non-copyrightable, just as you can't copyright "the super bowl will take place on X date at X time at X stadium".

The Board talked to the PDGA lawyer before their vote and apparently he indicated the information was proprietary but I didn't see the document.

I would expect nothing less from a PDGA-retained lawyer... ;-) Sounds reasonable, I suppose. Player ratings are certainly proprietary, so perhaps the SSA's have to be as well, since they basically go hand in hand.

On a related note...if the PDGA ever stops listing their event schedule...well, I'll just have to... Well, you know those "do not remove under penalty of law" stickers on mattresses? Well, I'll just have to rip one of those off! Seriously, though... I'm glad the PDGA is OK with scraping things like the event schedule. And, I'm sure all my dgmapper.com users are glad as well! Although, I would certainly prefer a tournament-schedule RSS feed...

I'd go for the buyout possibility as a win-win.

I'd go for the buyout possibility as a win-win.

You mean, as in the PDGA buying out dgmapper.com? Heh...I'd be really surprised if anything like that ever came up. Considering dgmapper.com runs itself (I literally don't have to do anything on a daily basis), and pdga.com can't serve an html page in a timely fashion...do I really want PDGA taking over my rather technical baby? Things that make you go, hmmm... Like others have said, until I see PDGA running smoothly in the digital realm, I'll probably pass (unless there are enough zeroes on the check).

Hehe, seriously though, I know a lot of pdga.com's problems had to do with outsourced tech stuff not going well, etc. I'm sure David is hard at work with the new website, can't wait to see it!

SSAs are still available by looking at results but not by grabbing a big data file.

Those SSAs are meaningless without knowing the number of holes, which tees were used, and pin positions. The layout for each round is no longer available at all. So please stop insisting that we can still assess our personal round performances by referring to tournament round results manually. It's simply not true. The PDGA is forcing us all to buy iphones and the PDGA app if we want to determine round ratings for our personal round scores. And that's the point, isn't it?

If they are your personal round scores and ratings you're interested in, you know what course layouts were used and how many holes you played, correct? The specific layout names in the existing data many times still does not provide enough info for many courses where multiple tee and pin combinations can vary widely.

The plan is to provide a web app on the new website at some point where you'll be able to enter scores and get ratings that will work similar to the app. You'll be able to track your non-tournament scores and do stats online. It will work with a mobile app if you have one but it won't be needed.

If they are your personal round scores and ratings you're interested in, you know what course layouts were used and how many holes you played, correct? The specific layout names in the existing data many times still does not provide enough info for many courses where multiple tee and pin combinations can vary widely.

The plan is to provide a web app on the new website at some point where you'll be able to enter scores and get ratings that will work similar to the app. You'll be able to track your non-tournament scores and do stats online. It will work with a mobile app if you have one but it won't be needed.

Sounds like it could be pretty sweet, Chuck! I look forward to this new website...

So do I...

If they are your personal round scores and ratings you're interested in, you know what course layouts were used and how many holes you played, correct?

I mean something different by "personal round ratings." I mean "casual round ratings." As a PDGA member, I have enjoyed going to new courses and playing them, perhaps in preparation for a PDGA tournament to be held there, and assessing my performance by figuring out what rating might have been assigned. Now I can't do that anymore unless I buy an iphone, or someone can tell me how many holes at least were played in the tournaments for which ratings are provided. I'm rather the opposite of happy about that.

I wrote a more interesting answer. But I think "The tribe has spoken" does the job.

That Round Rating Calculator for the iphone APP is Pure Trash!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I shot a 50 this weekend and was rated 981 on the PDGA Events page, and then I put it in my phone using the CORRECT layout and it was calculated at 1020 almost 40 points off.

I mean I could GUESS closer than +-40 ratings points.

You may want to work on being slightly more accurate than 40 points

You're presuming the 981 is accurate and yet those are unofficial ratings correct? The iPhone App relies on the quality of tournament results for that course. If the course does not have any results or the results were incomplete (no or inaccurate course lengths) then the App isn't smart enough to do anything but use default values for the course rating. If it's using default values for your course, then 40 points out of 1000 still isn't too bad but could certainly be better if we get better data for your course.

It was Jones Park in Emporia Ks that is used yearly at the Glass Blown Open which was an NT two years ago and an A tier every other year so the lack of data shouldnt be the issue.
And this tourney had Eric Mccabe a 1028 rated player as well as many other top pros.

So you are saying that since its still unofficial that it has the possibility of going up multiple points say around 20 points because it should have been at least 1000+ rated round based off past rounds played there.

That's a possibility. Check back and let us know when the results go official. I've asked the App guys to insert a caution note in there to let people know when default values are being used instead of actual values from events in the ratings calculation, even though it looks like there should be actuals in there for Jones. At this point, temp layouts are not in the PDGA directory so the Jones tournament values might not be in there.