God is not loving all the time...he is a vengeful god full of spite and anger and will send you to the fiery pits of hell for not loving your neighbor and cussing.

at least thats what the bible says

....

at least thats what the bible says



Old Testament

Gods word from the old testament has many verses about Gods wrath and his enemies, but that has changed with the new testament..

Dave, god bless the destroyer :DDisc that is.....

God is not loving all the time...he is a vengeful god full of spite and anger and will send you to the fiery pits of hell for not loving your neighbor and cussing.



deadluva,
You are right, God is a jelous and vengeful God. When he sent his people to war, there were no rules of engagement like when I was in the Marines fighting. He instructed his people to kill women, children and all. He did provide a way, through his son for all to escape hell though.
Not only those things that you mentioned are sin, but driving 26 mph in a 25mph speed zone also. We are told to obey the laws of the land. BUT...all the "Christians" that believe they have to "confess" all their sin to be saved are in trouble, because I seriously doubt they confess their speeding problems. When Christ died on the cross, he paid for ALL sin. The difference in a believers prayer life:
I used to pray God, forgive me for these things. (I didn't truly understand what Christ had done)
Now: I pray-Lord HELP me not to do these things. I know now that I have been (past tense) forgiven ALL TRESPASSES.
The real answer is that we are BORN sinners, we get our blood from Adam-out of the garden. No matter how good of a life you live, God Expects you to sin, you are a sinner-just like the rest of us. Should we continue in sin? God Forbid is what Paul says. :D

Anybody see the Mother Teresa special on the news this morning?

I was one of the people who stated the need for indisputable, irrefutable evidence to KNOW something is in fact an absolute TRUTH.

I also stated that there are numerous other things that I EXPECT to be true based on the limited knowledge and understanding available today...not absolute truth, but likely to prove true given comprehensive study.

I know of ZERO Absolute Truths about the spiritual world...yet many people argue that their belief is in fact a truth.

I'm still looking for enough evidence that the spiritual world TRULY exists (and how)....until then, I'll wait to form a conclusion.
AND in the mean time, I'll not tell other people that what I believe/expect, IS absolutely True.



I've been talking to a friend named Dave (mp3) about these messages and he wanted to pass on a message to bpkurt...

"I admire your intellectual honesty in looking and seeking for evidence of the spiritual realm. Here are some questions that you will hopefully consider that might be useful to you:
<ul type="square">
How would you describe the color red to someone born blind?
How would you describe the sense of sight to a remote tribe of people who were all blind? (Ignore the probable language barrier for the sake of this exercise. :) )
Is it probable that they would call you crazy for suggesting that there is a sense out there that they can not perceive?
Would it be reasonable for them to call you that?

Would it change the fact that the sense of sight is an �absolute truth� even if they soundly reject your explanations?
If you told these people, �there is music in the air all around you� would it be reasonable for them to call you crazy if they heard no music?
If you then produced a radio, explained how it worked and showed them that music was indeed in the air, would they not be amazed?

Is it possible that there is a spiritual being (�spiritual� meaning �not able to be perceived by our physical senses�) outside of your realm of knowledge?
Is it possible that this being is supreme, supremely loving and good, and wants you to know him like one would know a good father? (aka God)
Is it possible that he will give you a spiritual �radio tuner� so that you will somehow be able to discern him if you ask him to?

Think about it�."
[/list]

Anybody see the Mother Teresa special on the news this morning?



From what Mother Teresa believed and what she trusted in...she is most likely in torment right about now. She was part of the Catholic "religious" system- where her works were the main key to her salvation.

Torment over what??

By torment, I meant Hell. From what she believed, the Catholic religion is what I was speaking of. The focus of that religion centers on mother Mary, instead of her son, Jesus. It also is focused on works as a part of your salvation-to get it, not because you have it, or out of thankfulness. They also "confess" their sin to a priest, we no longer need to confess to priests, we have direct access to God, through his son. Christ said that he has forgiven me "all" tresspasses, so then tell me what there is to confess? I HAVE BEEN forgiven, it's not dependant on what I do, that's the great part about the whole thing. :DAgain, the difference in my prayer, now I don't pray "Lord, forgive me of ...so on and so on" I now pray, "Lord, help me not to do these things" I have been forgiven already.

Cambagger..you know you are fighting a losing cause no matter the side you are on..

ready for my Jesus Joke???... :p

miss you brother..234 heathens (sp?) at OK Doubles and not a single Sivils, Paske or Steward :D

Any RT's? :D

By torment, I meant Hell. From what she believed, the Catholic religion is what I was speaking of. The focus of that religion centers on mother Mary, instead of her son, Jesus. It also is focused on works as a part of your salvation-to get it, not because you have it, or out of thankfulness.



Wow, you are you? The almighty judger of an individual that gave comfort to thousands? Maybe you should focus on your own faith and spirituality, instead of judging and cutting down religions that you obviously don't understand, noted by your above comments. There's nothing that irritates me more than you holier than thou folks. I thought this was a disc golf forum. Unbelievable.

Who is hollier then thou??? I am not for sure. I sin every day, several times a day. My sin has been paid for.


You can give comfort to thousands or even millions and still burn a nice clear path to hell. It's not what you DO that gets you to Heaven, it's what you put your faith and trust in. 1Cor 15:1-4. We are going to sin every day until the day we die. There is no way to stop, it's in our blood. We are BORN sinners, we don't become sinners. We get our blood from Adam, out of the garden.


The catholic religion focuses on works, and confession to KEEP your salvation. I do the few good things I do out of thankfulness, not because I have to, but because I want to. If you read above in my earlier posts, I was a catholic and know what it is all about. If Mother Teresa trusted in all her "good deeds" to mankind and her daily confession, that will or would not have gotten her to Heaven. Looks at the Cross the Catholics wear, Christ is crucified. With each sin they commit, they are crucifying him over and over, thus the need for confession. I still have family that is being decieved by this. Christ is no longer on that Cross, he was buried and rose again 3 days later-like he said he would. He is alive, not dead on a cross.


Unbelievable? No one forced you to look at this thread, let alone respond. This is a forum FOR disc golfers, not always about disc golf. Have you gone on any of the other threads and told them how crazy it is to be talking about fantasy football and that thier picks are outlandish? That's off the topic of disc golf, just as many of the other threads on this forum. If you don't agree, or am not interested in some of the topics, you don't have to look at them.


Do I or anyone alive know if Mother Teresa is in Heaven or Hell? Of course not, that would be foolish to say you knew for certain. But, I can tell you that if she died and did not trust that Christ PAID for her sin when he died on the Cross, I can assure you, according to the Bible, she is in hell, just like anyone else that doesn't believe.
I have no intent to judge anyone. You can look to what the Bible says about certain things and let that be the final authority. If I tell you what the Bible says about something, am I judging you? Ceratinly not. Some people don't like to look at what thew Bible says, because it differs from what their OPINION is. The Bible is the final authority.
Have a good day! :D

<font color="blue"> post deleted for an innapropriate link </font>

Everyone has to make their own choice. No one can make you believe anything, I don't want to make anyone believe anything. I set the table, it's up to each individual if they want to eat or not.
God hates sin, homosexuality is sin. But God doesn't hate homosexuality any more then he hates swearing, over-eating(gluttony), speeding or anything else that is sin. The difference is the consequences. We reap what we sow. The sin of Homosexuality just has much greater consequences then swearing, etc. The people on that video obviously don't realize this. It's these religious groups that pick and choose which sins they want to harp on. Sin is Sin. The 400 pound preacher preaches against drugs/drinking/smoking etc, when in fact, that sin is no worse then him speeding on the way to church. You won't find them preaching on that (speeding) We are told to obey the law of the land. He wont preach on over eating when he's 400pounds. The people on that video don't realize that no 1 sin is worse then another. God hates sin, that's it. All the crap on the video about cursing people and all that is non-sense. Please don't group me in with these folks, IMO they are way off base. God provided a sacrifice for ALL (gays included). "While we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us" Again, it' does not depend on what we do (works/lifestyle), it matters that Christ died for all.
I did watch that documentary, I don't even know what to say about those people really.

God hates sin, homosexuality is sin. But God doesn't hate homosexuality any more then he hates swearing, over-eating(gluttony), speeding or anything else that is sin.



You seriously think speeding is a sin?

Everyone has to make their own choice. No one can make you believe anything, I don't want to make anyone believe anything. I set the table, it's up to each individual if they want to eat or not.
God hates sin, homosexuality is sin. But God doesn't hate homosexuality any more then he hates swearing, over-eating(gluttony), speeding or anything else that is sin. The difference is the consequences. We reap what we sow. The sin of Homosexuality just has much greater consequences then swearing, etc. The people on that video obviously don't realize this. It's these religious groups that pick and choose which sins they want to harp on. Sin is Sin. The 400 pound preacher preaches against drugs/drinking/smoking etc, when in fact, that sin is no worse then him speeding on the way to church. You won't find them preaching on that (speeding) We are told to obey the law of the land. He wont preach on over eating when he's 400pounds. The people on that video don't realize that no 1 sin is worse then another. God hates sin, that's it. All the crap on the video about cursing people and all that is non-sense. Please don't group me in with these folks, IMO they are way off base. God provided a sacrifice for ALL (gays included). "While we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us" Again, it' does not depend on what we do (works/lifestyle), it matters that Christ died for all.
I did watch that documentary, I don't even know what to say about those people really.



Don't ask me not to group you in with the Phelps clan in Kansas. You are the same. You may be more acceptable in the way you present your opinions, but you are exactly the same. You have the belief that by reading the Bible, you know the expectations of God, and have insight into the true meaning of life.

You are exactly the same as the Phelps', and the suicide bomber in Iraq, and the Shankill Butchers in Ireland. That's what you fail to see. You don't want to be connected to them, because you are nicer? You think the exact same way. You think you know the mind of God, and that others who don't believe what you do are suffering eternal damnation.

You may not take it to their extremes, but don't kid yourself, you are the same.

Nice reply. How does one know the "Expectations of God"? Do you believe in God? Do you believe the Bible is the word of God? It doesn't sound like it. As I said before several times, everyone has a free choice. God has given us that privilage. It's too bad some rely on mans wisdom rather then his. There are several people on this forum that have seen me do waaay worse things then talk like those people on the video about gays that was posted-never about those things, but different things. I never have claimed to be perfect, nor will I ever claim that.

How are we to know God's plan or what he wants from us? You really don't understand anything I've said if you choose to group me with those people, but that's your choice. I guess we will have wait to see in the end, hopefully you will come around before that ;) Till then, have a good day.

How are we to know God's plan or what he wants from us? You really don't understand anything I've said if you choose to group me with those people, but that's your choice. I guess we will have wait to see in the end, hopefully you will come around before that ;) Till then, have a good day.



I think this needs another response, because it is too important to let go. I don't choose to group you in with those groups I've mentioned. You ARE the same as those groups I have mentioned. You may not want to be grouped in with them, but you suffer from the same hubris. You hold up a book, and then proclaim to know the right way to live, and the only way to salvation. You may not bomb a building, but that is only because of rules and norms that have been established in our society. If you had been born in North Africa, you would practice female circumcision as what God wants for you.

Your beliefs are completely based upon language, location of birth, race, and upbringing. Yet you have the presumption to stand up and (with a smiley face in your post) tell people that they are going to Hell, using the possibility of eternal damnation to make people believe what you believe. Its just an American Fundamentalist passive-aggressive way of doing what Islamic extremists do. You can condemn people to Hell, without getting your hands dirty.

I write this not for you, but for other people who can actually think for themselves. I understand your belief structure is so embedded, it will never change. Unless of course you have a revelation where you understand the true mind of God is represented by Ganesha, which you would believe if you were born to a Hindi family in India.

But I guess you never have to worry about that, because, as we know, you have a book that tells you who the real God is, and how to get to Heaven, unlike Mother Teresa and her false book. It's not like people can just interpret the book the way they like to fit their needs and beliefs. Its the word of the real God after all, and we now know the real way to heaven. Not what those false believers were doing the 1600 years before the Anabaptist schism.

All I can hope is that at least one person reads this and finally sees the foolishness in their way of thinking. It's scary for some people to face really hard questions, like death, morality and the self, when there is no book to do your thinking for you. It requires a lot of work. It's also uncomfortable to go against what the people around you believe, which is one of the powers that religion has. The threat of exclusion, not only in the afterlife, but in this life. Families will shun members who don't believe what they do. (Its actually a command from Jesus to love him above even sons or daughters.)

But willingly accepting utter nonsense to feel better or get into the afterlife country club is a waste of your life, not a glorification of it.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Really you don't know anything about what I've said or my up-bringing. I never grew up going to church, as a matter of fact, just about the farthest thing from it.-ask some of the disc golfers on here. I am not pushing a religion, just the Bible, which I do believe. I find it hard to believe that God will judge us one day, but not give us some kind of instruction for our lives. The sad part is, that as much as you disagree with me, the religious people hate me even worse, cause I can take the same book they pack every Sunday and Wednesday and tear their denomination up. The baptists, catholics, methodists, mormons, jehova witnesses, who ever. They carry the Bible, say they believe it, then twist it to fit into their denominational by-laws. The baptists will tell you you don't HAVE to be baptized to be saved, but you should cause Jesus was. Really? Why can't you become a member of their church or hold a position in their church, UNLESS you are baptized? Seems like they think it's pretty important to me. They want to be baptized because Jesus was??? Matthew 3:15 says he was baptized to "fulfill ALL righteousness" Are they fullfilling all righteousness when they get baptized?? I think not. Another reason why there are close to 300 different kinds of "baptist" churches. They can't even agree on how to baptize people, some will sprinkle, others insist it has to be full sub-mersion, some say it has to be in a river, "so your sins can actually be washed away with the current", rediculous. The Bible says we are to be in 1 accord, speaking the same thing, having the same judgement. That's the farthest thing from what is happening today.
I really can't blame you or anyone else for being turned off to the Bible, look what has become of it. Exactly what satan has wanted all along, to dis-credit the word of God. What did he do to Eve in the garden? Dis-credited the word. "Hath God said..." He uses the word, but twists it, same thing he is doing in all these big churches today, from behind the pulpit. That's why I never say I'm "religious". I believe the Bible.

For some people it's just hard to admit that there is a higher power, you are not in charge. Myself, I have no problem with that.

you,re all silly...Dont make yourself so important. We are born, we procreate, and we die. Thats it...
oh, and the bible is not the word of god. The bible was part of an ingenious business plan that has people like you still buying into it. Not that i care...you people just ammuse me.

Obviously you do care, or you wouldn't have wasted your time posting here. Glad to provide some entertainment for you.

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
~ Nietzsche

The bible was written by man....how could it be the word of god? The bible has been interpreted and translated more times than anything ever written, it has sections that have been omitted...how can you put so much faith in it when you yourself admit to man's faults and sinful ways? As you say all men are fallible and sinful, but you put all of your faith into their fables, parables, and metaphors? I'm confused by your logic or lack there of Camerelli

The bible has been interpreted and translated more times than anything ever written,



Hmmm, maybe there's something to it if it gets that much attention. btw Most translations today are first generation, i.e. translated directly from the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Very few are second generation using an intermediate language.

The bible was written by man....how could it be the word of god? The bible has been interpreted and translated more times than anything ever written, it has sections that have been omitted...how can you put so much faith in it when you yourself admit to man's faults and sinful ways? As you say all men are fallible and sinful, but you put all of your faith into their fables, parables, and metaphors? I'm confused by your logic or lack there of Camerelli



God spoke through the writers and editors of the Bible so that they would get it right. Its really simple. God can do anything he wants, especially if you need him to do it in order to back up your religious beliefs.

And how do I know God did this? Because the Bible says it is the word of God, and God is infallible, therefore the Bible is infallible.

Circular arguments are indestructible!!!

/that's sarcasm for those who missed it

The bible has been interpreted and translated more times than anything ever written,



Hmmm, maybe there's something to it if it gets that much attention.



Volume = Validity. By that logic Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings are viable religious texts.

More people believing something does not make it more true.

The bible has been interpreted and translated more times than anything ever written,



Hmmm, maybe there's something to it if it gets that much attention.



Volume = Validity. By that logic Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings are viable religious texts.

More people believing something does not make it more true.



I didn't say volume=validity, what I claimed was volume=some value.

More people reading something does imply that there is most likely some value to it. What that value is depends on the material. The difference is that neither of those works of fiction are making the claims that they should be taken as religious texts (despite the fanatical geeks that are out there).

FYI, LOTR is a fictional account that is based on reiligion
From Wikipedia"

"Tolkien once described The Lord of the Rings to his friend, the English Jesuit Father Robert Murray, as "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work, unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."[10] There are many theological themes underlying the narrative including the battle of good versus evil, the triumph of humility over pride, and the activity of grace. In addition the saga includes themes which incorporate death and immortality, mercy and pity, resurrection, salvation, repentance, self-sacrifice, free will, justice, fellowship, authority and healing. In addition the Lord's Prayer "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" was reportedly present in Tolkien's mind as he described Frodo's struggles against the power of the One Ring"

The total absence of humor in the Bible is one of the most singular things in all literature.
~ Alfred North Whitehead

The bible was written by man....how could it be the word of god? The bible has been interpreted and translated more times than anything ever written, it has sections that have been omitted...how can you put so much faith in it when you yourself admit to man's faults and sinful ways? As you say all men are fallible and sinful, but you put all of your faith into their fables, parables, and metaphors? I'm confused by your logic or lack there of Camerelli



The difference is that the men who wrote it, were in-dwelt or led by the holy Spirit. God says that he has "Magnified his word ABOVE his name" (Psalms 1:38) He also says he has preserved his word, and tells how it has been COPIED down-written in tablets and passed on from generation to generation. From your comments, it appears that you don't believe the Bible. In the 1st chapter of the gospel of John, it says that "In the beginning was the word, and the the word was with God and the word WAS God." It sounds to me like he has placed a great importance on his word. It also says in Paul's epistles, that he (Paul) an apostle chosen by God, has Fulfilled the word of God. If Paul fulfilled the word of God, what was to be added to it? Nothing, it was complete after Paul's epistles. That dis-credits The mormons and jehova Witnesses right off the bat. Do you not know there is a difference in an interpretation and a translation/copy?

Again this is circular logic...you are believing a MAN that says he is guided by god? God didn't write that, a man did...that pretty much discredits anything that you've written, b/c everything that you say is the word of god is documented by man... You might as well believe Joseph Smith when he says that god came to him in his sleep and told him that the bible needed to be modified and resold and that men should have more than one wife.

The bible was written by man....how could it be the word of god? The bible has been interpreted and translated more times than anything ever written, it has sections that have been omitted...how can you put so much faith in it when you yourself admit to man's faults and sinful ways? As you say all men are fallible and sinful, but you put all of your faith into their fables, parables, and metaphors? I'm confused by your logic or lack there of Camerelli



The difference is that the men who wrote it, were in-dwelt or led by the holy Spirit. God says that he has "Magnified his word ABOVE his name" (Psalms 1:38) He also says he has preserved his word, and tells how it has been COPIED down-written in tablets and passed on from generation to generation. From your comments, it appears that you don't believe the Bible. In the 1st chapter of the gospel of John, it says that "In the beginning was the word, and the the word was with God and the word WAS God." It sounds to me like he has placed a great importance on his word. It also says in Paul's epistles, that he (Paul) an apostle chosen by God, has Fulfilled the word of God. If Paul fulfilled the word of God, what was to be added to it? Nothing, it was complete after Paul's epistles. That dis-credits The mormons and jehova Witnesses right off the bat. Do you not know there is a difference in an interpretation and a translation/copy?





The bible was written by man....how could it be the word of god? The bible has been interpreted and translated more times than anything ever written, it has sections that have been omitted...how can you put so much faith in it when you yourself admit to man's faults and sinful ways? As you say all men are fallible and sinful, but you put all of your faith into their fables, parables, and metaphors? I'm confused by your logic or lack there of Camerelli



The difference is that the men who wrote it, were in-dwelt or led by the holy Spirit. God says that he has "Magnified his word ABOVE his name" (Psalms 1:38) He also says he has preserved his word, and tells how it has been COPIED down-written in tablets and passed on from generation to generation. From your comments, it appears that you don't believe the Bible. In the 1st chapter of the gospel of John, it says that "In the beginning was the word, and the the word was with God and the word WAS God." It sounds to me like he has placed a great importance on his word. It also says in Paul's epistles, that he (Paul) an apostle chosen by God, has Fulfilled the word of God. If Paul fulfilled the word of God, what was to be added to it? Nothing, it was complete after Paul's epistles. That dis-credits The mormons and jehova Witnesses right off the bat. Do you not know there is a difference in an interpretation and a translation/copy?



YAWN!

You do see the fault in saying that the bible is inspired by God and his word, but quoting the bible as the source of this belief? Hmmmmm, I can see it now

Apostle writing. "And so, God told me to write down the bible, but he wanted me to point out that I'm only human and it might not be perfect." Nah, that doesn't work. "God ordained me his mouth-piece for the tenure of this writing so you better take this seriously." Now that's much better.

If the bible is "God" inspired, then why isn't it complete? Why has the Christian faith chosen to leave out parts of it? Given that it's "all" God inspired he must of wanted it there. Or is that the Popes and scholars that followed after were God inspired also and so modified the bible? If so, then what happened? Did God change his mind?

"Ah, well ya know, I thought that was going to be important but now I've changed my mind." Perhaps his omnipotence is slipping in his old age (old being relative).

Also, how do you account for the King James rewrite that brought male dominance to the forefront and the right of Kings to rule? Was that also God inspired? Did God feel that Kings should rule and were God ordained? If so, why don't we have a King? Where's my King? A kingdom for a King. I want my King now! :)

You've pointed out the exact point I'm making, that the bible has been modified. How in the world can you guarantee that what now exists reflects God's message?

Somehow the notion that the bible is a manifestation of God's word seems... inaccurate, overstated, simplistic. It's a whole lot harder to think for yourself than to accept that the bible is perfect or really reflects what God wants, as opposed to what numerous subsequent editors think and want. I suspect that God actually thinks of the bible as a below average dime store novel and wishes that Christians would apply a little common sense to the basic concepts of Good, Greed, Evil, and Avarice.

Two things, I just realized I got beaten to the post, oh well. Second, One only has to look at the mega-churches that exist in the South, listen to any televangelist, or look at our President to realize that Christianity has gone astray. I do believe some common sense is in order.

The bible has been interpreted and translated more times than anything ever written,



Hmmm, maybe there's something to it if it gets that much attention.



Volume = Validity. By that logic Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings are viable religious texts.

More people believing something does not make it more true.



I didn't say volume=validity, what I claimed was volume=some value.

More people reading something does imply that there is most likely some value to it. What that value is depends on the material. The difference is that neither of those works of fiction are making the claims that they should be taken as religious texts (despite the fanatical geeks that are out there).



I suspect you've never read either a government report or an insurance policy. Volume, IMO, usually means incompetence. An inability to write what you need to say succinctly. Even in the case of Harry Potter, I think real scholars will admit that Rowling could have written shorter and more clearly and conveyed the same story equally well. Ego does play a role after all.

BTW - the bible can be written much more simply. "Believe in me and worship me or I'm going to burn you in hell!" Disclaimer: I'm a nice God and I love you dearly and want you to be my... friends. Oh, and play nice!

O.K., I admit, I stole that last line from Toy Story. But still, it wasn't that hard... :D

Finally, while the bible is the most read book of all time, the little red book is number two on the list. So, would you argue that is has merit based on the number of readings? Or simply that like God, Mao would kick your backside if you didn't believe?

Again this is circular logic...you are believing a MAN that says he is guided by god? God didn't write that, a man did...that pretty much discredits anything that you've written, b/c everything that you say is the word of god is documented by man... You might as well believe Joseph Smith when he says that god came to him in his sleep and told him that the bible needed to be modified and resold and that men should have more than one wife.



There's always a temptation to say, hey, more than one wife! But once you've had one, it is highly unlikely, that unless you felt God was demanding it, that you'd ask for another spouse, no matter what your sex. :D

FYI, LOTR is a fictional account that is based on reiligion
From Wikipedia"

"Tolkien once described The Lord of the Rings to his friend, the English Jesuit Father Robert Murray, as "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work, unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."[10] There are many theological themes underlying the narrative including the battle of good versus evil, the triumph of humility over pride, and the activity of grace. In addition the saga includes themes which incorporate death and immortality, mercy and pity, resurrection, salvation, repentance, self-sacrifice, free will, justice, fellowship, authority and healing. In addition the Lord's Prayer "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" was reportedly present in Tolkien's mind as he described Frodo's struggles against the power of the One Ring"




FYI, LOTR is a fictional account that is based on reiligion
From Wikipedia"

"Tolkien once described The Lord of the Rings to his friend, the English Jesuit Father Robert Murray, as "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work, unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."[10] There are many theological themes underlying the narrative including the battle of good versus evil, the triumph of humility over pride, and the activity of grace. In addition the saga includes themes which incorporate death and immortality, mercy and pity, resurrection, salvation, repentance, self-sacrifice, free will, justice, fellowship, authority and healing. In addition the Lord's Prayer "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" was reportedly present in Tolkien's mind as he described Frodo's struggles against the power of the One Ring"



However, one could also argue that these themes relate TLOTR to any major religion, or even simply to living a good life and wishing there was more. The fact that JRR included basic themes valued by all people in his books is reflective of his religious experience, but the roots probably go through Christianity into deeper held human values.

Lyle, volume above referred to volume of readership not the size of the tome. I would not have chosen that word, but it was the word used by Boognish to whom I was replying to.

As far as Mao goes, it does have value. For the millions of Chinese that may be required to read it, there is value in understanding how your country got to where it is. If you want to understand Chinese society, it is a must read.

excellent point, but I would still be very careful on considering volume of readership as a commentary of importance, import, or value. How many people watch soap operas? Compare that to the number of people who read up on the current political issues or who have read our Constitution.

BTW - you still didn't answer Boog's real point. Volume does not mean important. The rule isn't universal, but the simple fact that a lot of people read the bible doesn't make it important or "real" in the context of there being a God. That it is important is unquestioned, but that is only because it has the power to do so much damage and cause so much suffering... and good. But any book with serious moral lessons, read and believed by millions, would have the same impact. The bible isn't important because it's a real story, only because so many believe that story. The same goes for the little red book. If everyone had ignored it, and Mao, it's importance would have been zero. Indeed Mao was idiotic as were many of his ideas.

I like your thinking and ability to express yourself Lyle O. Ross.

Hmmm. Soap operas...Good point. Too many people partake in this escapism. I do not find value in that for me, but for others it takes them out of their own life which they find too dull. I feel sorry for them.

Lyle, you seem to have a very negative view of the Bible. Have you read through it or is this based on second hand observations? This is the essence of my point to Boog. If your going to critique Christianity, then at the very least one needs to examine the primary source materials and not be content to base one's opinion on the behaviors of those of us who are not perfect.

I like your thinking and ability to express yourself Lyle O. Ross.



Thank you! On the other hand, my wife thinks I'm an idiot so in the greater cosmic scheme it balances out... :D

Hmmm. Soap operas...Good point. Too many people partake in this escapism. I do not find value in that for me, but for others it takes them out of their own life which they find too dull. I feel sorry for them.

Lyle, you seem to have a very negative view of the Bible. Have you read through it or is this based on second hand observations? This is the essence of my point to Boog. If your going to critique Christianity, then at the very least one needs to examine the primary source materials and not be content to base one's opinion on the behaviors of those of us who are not perfect.




Southern Baptist for 18 years. I'm well versed and might be considered an informed amateur. That experience is supported by two semesters of European and Middle Eastern history taken in college. Of course I also have access to the internet.

On the other hand, given that most (gross overstatement) Christians are flying on notions derived from their personal relationship with their God, I'm not inclined to feel as if my opinions on the topic are invalid.

Perhaps a better way to address your post is to admit that I see a value in many of the moral lessons taught in the bible. I would be the first to admit that my morals were derived there. However, my wife has equal or higher morals and was raised by a fairly non-religious (taoist) family. That is, morals are universal and can be gained in many ways.

Nonetheless, the moral lessons there are valuable. Unfortunately, Christians don't limit their scope to teaching moral lessons. All to often the approach is to shove religion down the throats of the rest of us. Naturally, that gets my goat. If you get my goat I'm very likely to go looking for problems.

BTW - even if I had no history or experience, the fact that there are huge faults in the bible and the way it's interpreted doesn't require an expertise, it is well known and well documented. Christianity opens itself up for criticism because it insists that the bible is the actual word of God and that God is omnipotent. Both points are easily refuted with minor amounts of logic (obviously, if I can do it, not a lot of smarts are required).

As I stated before, if Christians took a bit of humility and realized that as a global concept of being good and spreading love, that God is great - instead of trying to be the moral voice of the entire world; God would probably feel much better served.

Maybe that is an issue for you, being raise as a southern baptist. Myself, I am thankful that I was not raised in e religious family, it was easier for me to see/uderstand the truth when I was old enough to think for myself, instead of being brainwashed as a child in a religious system. The reason that most people (your wife included) have the good morals you spoke of, is that he (God) gave us a conscience. I personally do not choose to, or ever desire to shove religion down people's throats. As I said earlier, you can't force people to believe things. People do need to be saved, whether they WANT it or not. Again, it's their choice. How one reads/studies the Bible is the biggest factor in their understanding.

You mentioned the "big churches" in an earlier post. I personally think that is just show business/fake, just like most of the churches out there today, a social event-fashion show. People walk in those places and check their brains at the door, unable to think for themselves. They sit there like the bobblehead on a dashboard, bobbing away, thinking about where they are going to eat afterwards the whole time. They come out, saying "oh, that was such a great message." If you were to ask them after their lunch, most of them couldn't even tell you what the message was about.

I do, personally believe the Bible is the final word of God, and that it proved itself through and through. It's how you study it that makes the difference. You can't apply the whole thing to yourself and try to live your life accordingly. It is all TO us, but is not all FOR us. Most of it was written specifically to the nation Israel, God's "chosen people". It's not until they reject God's son, and crucify him that he turns to us Gentiles.

Israel crucified Christ?

I think that thought is the basis for a great deal of anti-Semitism throughout history.

Maybe that is an issue for you, being raise as a southern baptist. Myself, I am thankful that I was not raised in e religious family, it was easier for me to see/uderstand the truth when I was old enough to think for myself, instead of being brainwashed as a child in a religious system. The reason that most people (your wife included) have the good morals you spoke of, is that he (God) gave us a conscience. I personally do not choose to, or ever desire to shove religion down people's throats. As I said earlier, you can't force people to believe things. People do need to be saved, whether they WANT it or not. Again, it's their choice. How one reads/studies the Bible is the biggest factor in their understanding.

You mentioned the "big churches" in an earlier post. I personally think that is just show business/fake, just like most of the churches out there today, a social event-fashion show. People walk in those places and check their brains at the door, unable to think for themselves. They sit there like the bobblehead on a dashboard, bobbing away, thinking about where they are going to eat afterwards the whole time. They come out, saying "oh, that was such a great message." If you were to ask them after their lunch, most of them couldn't even tell you what the message was about.

I do, personally believe the Bible is the final word of God, and that it proved itself through and through. It's how you study it that makes the difference. You can't apply the whole thing to yourself and try to live your life accordingly. It is all TO us, but is not all FOR us. Most of it was written specifically to the nation Israel, God's "chosen people". It's not until they reject God's son, and crucify him that he turns to us Gentiles.



There are some issues even with what you've written. First, it is much more likely that morals evolved because without them, a thinking species would not exist for long. The notion that God gave us our morals is questioned by his own actions as seen in the world around us, in his actions as described in the bible, and the actions of his followers. Did everyone but Moses and his family truly deserve drowning? Do new born children really deserve to die of the numerous diseases that kill them?

As for your notion that people need to be saved, I thought we were talking Christianity, not Islam? Hopefully you understand the notion that Christianity isn't the only religion that feels they have the right/responsibility to shove their beliefs down the rest of our throats.

I think I like Ron Paul's political philosophy when it comes to religion. "You don't spread democracy by forcing it on people. You set a good example thus showing them that it is desirable and they come of their own accord."

1) It was Noah, not moses who built an Ark and was saved from the flood not Moses

2) The new testament does not teach to cram anything down anyones throat. It commands us as christian to share the gospel which includes living our lives openly as an example. What you do with the information is up to you. A real christian would not force anything but instead offer the information with a caring and sensitive attitude and by setting a good example.

1) It was Noah, not moses who built an Ark and was saved from the flood not Moses

2) The new testament does not teach to cram anything down anyones throat. It commands us as christian to share the gospel which includes living our lives openly as an example. What you do with the information is up to you. A real christian would not force anything but instead offer the information with a caring and sensitive attitude, by setting a good example and noting that if you don't agree, you'll burn in hell for eternity.

1) It was Noah, not moses who built an Ark and was saved from the flood not Moses

2) The new testament does not teach to cram anything down anyones throat. It commands us as christian to share the gospel which includes living our lives openly as an example. What you do with the information is up to you. A real christian would not force anything but instead offer the information with a caring and sensitive attitude, by setting a good example and noting that if you don't agree, someone specifically will burn in hell for eternity.





So please agree with me and do what you can to save him... Please!

Floods, parting the sea, what's the difference? :)


1. TRANSCENDENTAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. PRESUPPOSITIONALIST (I)
(1) If reason exists then God exists.
(2) Reason exists.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

2. COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. FIRST CAUSE ARGUMENT (I)
(1) If I say something must have a cause, it has a cause.
(2) I say the universe must have a cause.
(3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

3. ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I)
(1) I define God to be X.
(2) Since I can conceive of X, X must exist.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

4. ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) I can conceive of a perfect God.
(2) One of the qualities of perfection is existence.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

5. MODAL ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
(1) God is either necessary or unnecessary.
(2) God is not unnecessary, therefore God must be necessary.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

6. TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I), a.k.a. DESIGN ARGUMENT
(1) Check out the world/universe/giraffe. Isn't it complex?
(2) Only God could have made them so complex.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

7. ARGUMENT FROM BEAUTY, a.k.a. DESIGN/TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Isn't that baby/sunset/flower/tree beautiful?
(2) Only God could have made them so beautiful.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

8. ARGUMENT FROM MIRACLES (I)
(1) My aunt had cancer.
(2) The doctors gave her all these horrible treatments.
(3) My aunt prayed to God and now she doesn't have cancer.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

9. MORAL ARGUMENT (I)
(1) Person X, a well-known Atheist, was morally inferior to the rest of us.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

10. MORAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) In my younger days I was a cursing, drinking, smoking, gambling, child-molesting, thieving, murdering, bed-wetting bastard.
(2) That all changed once I became religious.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

11. ARGUMENT FROM CREATION, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (I)
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
(2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

12. ARGUMENT FROM FEAR
(1) If there is no God then we're all going to not exist after we die.
(2) I'm afraid of that. (3) Therefore, God exists.

13. ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE
(1) [arbitrary passage from OT]
(2) [arbitrary passage from NT]
(3) Therefore, God exists.

14. ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE
(1) Look, there's really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid Atheists � it's too complicated for you to understand. God exists whether you like it or not.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

15. ARGUMENT FROM UNINTELLIGENCE
(1) Okay, I don't pretend to be as intelligent as you guys � you're obviously very well read. But I read the Bible, and nothing you say can convince me that God does not exist. I feel him in my heart, and you can feel him too, if you'll just ask him into your life. "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish from the earth." John 3:16.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

16. ARGUMENT FROM BELIEF
(1) If God exists, then I should believe in Him.
(2) I believe in God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

17. ARGUMENT FROM INTIMIDATION
(1) See this bonfire?
(2) Therefore, God exists.

18. PARENTAL ARGUMENT
(1) My mommy and daddy told me that God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

19. ARGUMENT FROM NUMBERS
(1) Millions and millions of people believe in God.
(2) They can't all be wrong, can they?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

20. ARGUMENT FROM ABSURDITY
(1) Maranathra!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

21. ARGUMENT FROM ECONOMY
(1) God exists, you bastards!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

22. BOATWRIGHT'S ARGUMENT
(1) Ha ha ha.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

23. DORE'S ARGUMENT
(1) I forgot to take my meds.
(2) Therefore, I AM CHRIST!!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

24. ARGUMENT FROM GUITAR MASTERY
(1) Eric Clapton is God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

25. ARGUMENT FROM INTERNET AUTHORITY
(1) There is a website that successfully argues for the existence of God.
(2) Here is the URL.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

26. ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPREHENSIBILITY
(1) Flabble glurk zoom boink blubba snurgleschnortz ping!
(2) No one has ever refuted (1).
(3) Therefore, God exists.

27. ARGUMENT FROM AMERICAN EVANGELISM
(1) Telling people that God exists makes me filthy rich.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

28. MITCHELL'S ARGUMENT
(1) The Christian God exists.
(2) Therefore, all worldviews which don't assume the Christian God's existence are false and incomprehensible.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

29. ARGUMENT FROM BLINDNESS (I)
(1) Atheists are spiritually blind.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

30. ARGUMENT FROM BLINDNESS (II)
(1) God is love.
(2) Love is blind.
(3) Stevie Wonder is blind.
(4) Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

31. ARGUMENT FROM FALLIBILITY
(1) Human reasoning is inherently flawed.
(2) Therefore, there is no reasonable way to challenge a proposition.
(3) I propose that God exists.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

32. ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
(1) God exists.
(2) I don't give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

33. ARGUMENT FROM META-SMUGNESS
(1) [censored] you.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

34. ARGUMENT FROM MANIFESTATIONS
(1) If you turn your head sideways and squint a little, you can see an image of a bearded face in that tortilla.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

35. SLATHER'S ARGUMENT
(1) My toaster is God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

36. ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPLETE DEVASTATION
(1) A plane crashed killing 143 passengers and crew.
(2) But one child survived with only third-degree burns.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

37. ARGUMENT FROM POSSIBLE WORLDS
(1) If things had been different, then things would be different.
(2) That would be bad.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

38. ARGUMENT FROM SHEER WILL
(1) I DO believe in God! I DO believe in God! I do I do I do I DO believe in God!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

39. ARGUMENT FROM NONBELIEF
(1) The majority of the world's population are nonbelievers in Christianity.
(2) This is just what Satan intended.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

40. ARGUMENT FROM POST-DEATH EXPERIENCE
(1) Person X died an Atheist.
(2) He now realizes his mistake.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

41. ARGUMENT FROM EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL
(1) God loves you.
(2) How could you be so heartless to not believe in him?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

42. ARGUMENT FROM SACRIFICIAL BLACKMAIL
(1) Jesus died for your sins.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

43. ARGUMENT FROM INCOHERENT BABBLE
(1) See that person spazzing on the church floor babbling incoherently?
(2) That's how infinite wisdom reveals itself.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

44. OPRAH'S ARGUMENT (I)
(1) The human spirit exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

45. OPRAH'S ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Check out this video segment.
(2) Now how can anyone watch that and NOT believe in God?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

46. CALVINIST ARGUMENT, a.k.a. TERTULLIAN'S ARGUMENT
(1) If God exists, then he will let me watch you be tortured forever.
(2) I rather like that idea.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

47. ARGUMENT FROM CROCKERY
(1) Pots don't go around giving orders to the potter.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

48. ARGUMENT FROM MASS PRODUCTION
(1) Barbie dolls were created.
(2) If Barbie dolls were created, then so were trees.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

49. ARGUMENT FROM PAROCHIALISM
(1) God is everywhere.
(2) We haven't been everywhere to prove he's not there.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

50. ARGUMENT FROM UPPERCASE ASSERTION
(1) GOD EXISTS! GET USED TO IT!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

51. ARGUMENT FROM INFINITE REGRESS, a.k.a. FIRST CAUSE ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Ask Atheists what caused the Big Bang.
(2) Regardless of their answer, ask how they know this.
(3) Continue process until the Atheist admits he doesn't know the answer to one of your questions.
(4) You win!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

52. ARGUMENT FROM INCREDULITY
(1) How could God NOT exist, you bozo?
(2) Therefore, God exists.

53. ARGUMENT FROM HISTORY
(1) The Bible is true.
(2) Therefore, the Bible is historical fact.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

54. ARGUMENT FROM RESURRECTION
(1) Proof of God's existence will be available when you rise bodily from your grave.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

55. ARGUMENT FROM BIOGENESIS
(1) Where did Adam come from, dummy?
(2) Therefore, God exists.

56. ARGUMENT FROM STEADFAST FAITH
(1) A lot of really cool people believed in God their entire lives.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

57. ARGUMENT FROM LONELINESS
(1) Christians say that Jesus is their best friend.
(2) I'm lonely, and I want a best friend.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

58. ARGUMENT FROM ARGUMENTATION
(1) God exists.
(2) [Atheist's counterargument]
(3) Yes he does.
(4) [Atheist's counterargument]
(5) Yes he does!
(6) [Atheist's counterargument]
(7) YES HE DOES!!!
(8) [Atheist gives up and goes home.]
(9) Therefore, God exists.

59. ARGUMENT FROM CREATIVE INTERPRETATION
(1) God is:
(a) The feeling you have when you look at a newborn baby.
(b) The love of a mother for her child.
(c) That little still voice in your heart.
(d) Humankind's potential to overcome their difficulties.
(e) How I feel when I look at a sunset.
(f) The taste of ice cream on a hot day.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

60. ARGUMENT FROM INSECURITY
(1) We have gone to absolutely berserk lengths to establish that Atheists are laughable morons.
(1.5) Actually, we did so in the hopes of curing our own insecurities about theism � but there's no chance in hell we'll ever admit that.
(2) Therefore, Atheists are laughable morons.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

61. ARGUMENT FROM SUPERIORITY
(1) If God does not exist, then I am an inferior being, since I am not "special" in a cosmic sense.
(2) But I am superior because I am a Christian.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

62. ARGUMENT FROM ABSOLUTE MORAL STANDARDS
(1) If there are absolute moral standards, then God exists.
(2) Atheists say that there are no absolute moral standards.
(3) But that's because they don't want to admit to being sinners.
(4) Therefore, there are absolute moral standards.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

63. ARGUMENT FROM HUMAN NECESSITY
(1) Atheists say that they don't need God.
(2) Which just goes to show that they need God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

64. ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN LOGIC (I)
(1) Intellectually, I know that the existence of God is impossible, or vastly improbable.
(2) But I must put on the appearance of being cool and intellectual in front of my Christian apologist peers.
(3) Therefore, I must pretend that (1) is false.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

65. ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN LOGIC (II)
(1) Atheists say that God doesn't exist.
(2) But they only say that because they want to look cool and intellectual in front of their peers.
(3) They don't fool me!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

66. ARGUMENT FROM INDULGENCE
(1) Atheists like to think that they can control their emotional desires.
(2) But they're Atheists, so they can't.
(3) Therefore, Atheists feel the need to indulge in whatever they feel like without worrying about committing sin.
(4) This just goes to show how they need God in their lives.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

67. ARGUMENT FROM HATE
(1) Some Atheists hate Christians and Christianity.
(2) That's why they don't believe in God.
(3) Pathetic, aren't they?
(4) Therefore, God exists.

68. ARGUMENT FROM QUENTIN SMITH
(1) Quentin Smith says that God does not exist.
(2) But God does exist.
(3) Therefore, Quentin Smith cannot be accepted as an expert on the matter, because he is wrong.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

69. ARGUMENT FROM EVIL SPIRITS
(1) I've just had contact with evil spirits.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

70. ARGUMENT FROM KENT HOVIND
(1) I don't want to work for a living.
(2) I don't want to pay taxes.
(3) I can get gullible fundamentalists to send me money.
(4) I can use religious exemption claims to tie the IRS up in court.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

71. ARGUMENT FROM KENT HOVIND'S CHALLENGE
(1) Kent Hovind offers $250,000 (which may or may not exist) to anyone who can demonstrate evolution (defined as a natural, acausal origin of the universe) to a reasonable doubt (meaning with 100% certainty, allowing for no other possibilities whatsoever) in front of a neutral committee (handpicked by Hovind himself) and according to certain criteria (carefully worded so as to rule out any possibility whatsoever of the challenge ever being met).
(2) No Atheist has ever met this challenge.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

72. ARGUMENT FROM INSANITY
(1) No sane person could have thought up Christianity.
(2) Therefore, it must be true
(3) Therefore, God exists.

73. ARGUMENT FROM EXHAUSTION (abridged)
(1) Do you agree with the utterly trivial proposition X?
(2) Atheist: of course.
(3) How about the slightly modified proposition X'?
(4) Atheist: Um, no, not really.
(5) Good. Since we agree, how about Y? Is that true?
(6) Atheist: No! And I didn't agree with X'!
(7) With the truths of these clearly established, surely you agree that Z is true as well?
(8) Atheist: No. So far I have only agreed with X! Where is this going, anyway?
(9) I'm glad we all agree.....
....
(37) So now we have used propositions X, X', Y, Y', Z, Z', P, P', Q and Q' to arrive at the obviously valid point R. Agreed?
(38) Atheist: Like I said, so far I've only agreed with X. Where is this going?
....
(81) So we now conclude from this that propositions L'', L''' and J'' are true. Agreed?
(82) I HAVEN'T AGREED WITH ANYTHING YOU'VE SAID SINCE X! WHERE IS THIS GOING?
....
(177) ...and it follows that proposition HRV, SHQ'' and BTU' are all obviously valid. Agreed?
(178) [Atheist either faints from overwork or leaves in disgust.]
(179) Therefore, God exists.

74. MR. GOODSALT'S ARGUMENT (ARGUMENT FROM GENERAL INQUIRY)
(1) Question for Atheist population: [apparently random question]
(2) Your answer is wrong.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

75. PEACOCK ARGUMENT FROM ORIGINALITY
(1) I have written the following to demonstrate the existence of God.
(2) [insert entire text of a William Lane Craig article]
(3) Therefore, God exists.

76. PEACOCK ARGUMENT FROM LIMITED VOCABULARY
(1) You use lots of big words.
(2) Therefore, I cannot possibly be expected to understand your refutation of my position.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

77. PEACOCK ARGUMENT FROM SELECTIVE MEMORY
(1) [Christian asks "stumper" question.]
(2) [Atheist answers question.]
(3) [A lapse of time]
(4) [Christian repeats question.]
(5) [Atheist repeats answer.]
(6) [A lapse of time]
(7) [Christian repeats question.]
(8) [Atheist repeats answer.]
(9) [A lapse of time]
(10) Atheist, you never answered my question.
(11) Therefore, God exists.

78. ARGUMENT FROM DIVINE ECONOMICS
(1) Protestant Christian nations are rich.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

79. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL SANITY
(1) I've had religious experiences that can't be explained unless I'm insane or God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

80. ARGUMENT FROM INSTITUTIONAL LONGETIVITY
(1) The Roman Catholic Church has been around for a long time.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

81. ARGUMENT FROM INEVITABILITY
(1) I have proof that God exists.
(2) I won't bother to tell you what it is because, being Atheists, you would be hostile to the conclusion anyway.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

82. ARGUMENT FROM "THE MATRIX"
(1) We cannot prove that we don't live in a Matrix-like world.
(2) Therefore we cannot know reality.
(3) If reality is contingent, then everything is possible.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

83. ARGUMENT FROM SUBJECTIVITY
(1) Everything is subjective.
(2) No subjective proof can be superior to any other subjective proof.
(3) Based upon my subjective opinion, your opinion, that if everything is subjective then, perforce, God is subjective, is false.
(4) Therefore, God (objectively) exists.

84. ARGUMENT FROM POSTMODERNISM
(1) I'm going to prove to you that God exists.
(2) [Insert any of the other arguments on this page in here.]
(3) [Atheist refutes argument.]
(4) I cannot prove there is a God any more than anyone of us can prove we really exist in a tangible world.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

85. META-PROOF
(1) This is a proof of God's existence.
(2) If the reader finishes reading this proof, the existence of God will be proven to him/her.
(3) If the existence of God is proven, then God exists.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

86. PROOF BY ANECDOTE
(1) God can be seen by those who believe in Him.
(2) If the God is seen, then He must exist.
(3) I have seen God.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

87. ARGUMENT FROM BIBLICAL HISTORY
(1) Many modern historians think that there probably was somebody named Jesus, maybe.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

88. BENDER�S ARGUMENT (I)
(1) One day, demons were tap-dancing on my roof. I prayed and they went away.
(2) Therefore, demons are really good dancers.
(3) Also, God exists.

89. BENDER�S ARGUMENT (II) (ARGUMENT FROM DAVID BLAINE)
(1) If David Blaine does real magic, then God exists.
(2) It looked real on his TV special.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

90. RANDMAN�S ARGUMENT
(1) This entry from the 1975 World Book Encyclopedia on evolution contains some errors that I claim to have already substantiated.
(2) Mr. Ph.D.-in-Evolutionary-Biology, this proves that evolution is an unsound scientific concept.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

91. ARGUMENT FROM MULTIPLICITY (I), a.k.a. METACROCK'S ARGUMENT
(1) I have a large number of arguments for God.
(2) One of them is probably true.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

92. ARGUMENT FROM FORTUITOUS COINCIDENCE
(1) What are the odds of that happening?
(2) Pretty long, I�ll bet.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

93. ARGUMENT FROM MYSTERIOUS USE OF PREPOSITIONS
(1) It is impossible to disprove God with your puny human intellect unless you are above God.
(2) Are you higher than God?
(3) I�ll take that puzzled look on your face as a no.
(4) Therefore, God (being the highest thing ever) exists.

94. ARGUMENT FROM TEEN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT
(1) God is so totally awesome, dude, and if you would pretend that Creed and POD were good bands, you would realize that.
(2) Also, our Youth Group leader Skip once, like, cured a broken leg using only the power of the almighty Lord.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

95. ARGUMENT FROM SPEAKING IN TOUNGES
(1) My friend here, once started spontaneously speaking some jibberish that sounded to me kind of like Russian.
(2) But neither he nor I know anything about Russian.
(3) The only explanation is God.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

96. ARGUMENT FROM EUROPEAN HISTORY
(1) Many prominent thinkers in pre-modern Europe believed in God.
(2) Let�s just forget about the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

97. ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN (I), a.k.a. PALEY'S ARGUMENT, a.k.a. DESIGN/TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (III)
(1) If there is a designer, then God must exist.
(2) If I find a watch in a forest, there must be a designer.
(3) [Throws watch into forest.]
(4) Therefore, God exists.

98. ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN (II), a.k.a. GOD OF THE GAPS, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (II), a.k.a. DESIGN/TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (IV)
(1) Isn't X amazing!
(2) I don't understand how X could be, without something else (that I don't really understand either) making or doing X.
(3) This something else must be God because I can't come up with a better explanation.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

99. ARGUMENT FROM OFFENSE
(1) God exists.
(2) [Atheist makes counterarguments.]
(3) You know what? I am offended.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

100. ARGUMENT FROM PRAYER
(1) God exists.
(2) [Atheist makes counterarguments.]
(3) You have my prayers.

101. ARGUMENT FROM AGNOSTICISM
(1) I don't know and you don't know either.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

102. ARGUMENT FROM LOVE
(1) Have you ever fallen in love?
(2) [Of course!!]
(3) So what is the cause of love? Isn't it God? Am I right or not?
(4) Therefore, God exists.

103. ARGUMENT FROM IDENTITY (PC ARGUMENT)
(1) Believing in God is a central part of my identity.
(2) You don't mean to deny my identity do you?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

104. ARGUMENT FROM FORMATTING
(1) Behold, foolish Atheists, I present you with an incontrovertible proof of the existence of God.
(2) [Christian posts 10,000 word document without a single paragraph break.]
(3) [Atheist's eyes implode.]
(4) I see that nobody can refute (2).
(5) Therefore, God exists.

105. ARGUMENT FROM NON-CONFRONTATION
(1) I am not here to argue with you Atheists.
(2) But come on, God obviously exists.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

106. ARGUMENT FROM EXODUS
(1) If the Exodus story has any basis in historical fact, then God exists.
(2) Some guy found some chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea.
(3) There is absolutely no other way that chariots could get to the bottom of the Red Sea.
(4) This means the Exodus story is true.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

107. ARGUMENT FROM MARTYRDOM
(1) The apostles would not have died for something they knew wasn't true.
(2) Atheist gives examples of martyrs outside Christendom.
(3) Obviously those examples were fooled by Satan.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

108. ARGUMENT FROM TINKERBELL
(1) I really want God to be real.
(2) If you wish for something really hard, it'll come true.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

109. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF DISPROOF
(1) You can't prove God doesn't exist!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

110. ARGUMENT FROM ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE (I)
(1) I once experienced something I can't explain.
(2) [Atheists offer several possible, natural explanations.]
(3) You're just guessing! I was there.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

111. ARGUMENT FROM ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE (II)
(1) I have experienced feelings of God's presence in my mind.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

112. ARGUMENT FROM NEUROSCIENCE
(1) Scientists say a portion of our brain may be responsible for mystical experiences.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

113. ARGUMENT FROM EYEWITNESS (sometimes follows or combined with Lack of Eyewitness I)
(1) Someone wrote the creation story in the Bible.
(2) That someone must have been an eyewitness to the described events.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

114. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EYEWITNESS (I)
(1) You weren't there to witness abiogenisis/Big Bang/etc.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

115. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EYEWITNESS (II)
(1) No one's ever seen one species turn into another.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

116. ARGUMENT FROM HALF A WING
(1) Half of a wing is useless!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

117. ARGUMENT FROM PREFERRED ANCESTRY
(1) I don't want to be related to monkeys.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

118. ARGUMENT FROM FOOLISHNESS
(1) The Bible says Atheists are fools.
(2) I don't want to be a fool.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

119. ARGUMENT FROM PIG'S TEETH
(1) Some scientists once thought a tooth was from an "ape-man."
(2) Later scientists discovered it was a pig's tooth.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

120. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (I)
(1) Someone made fun of my faith.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

121. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (II)
(1) Jesus said that people would make fun of Christians.
(2) I am an idiot.
(3) People often point that out.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

122. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (III)
(1) You Atheists are mean!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

123. ARGUMENT FROM JESUS SAID STUFF
(1) Jesus said some really cool stuff.
(2) No one else had said that stuff.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

124. ARGUMENT FROM DIFFERENCES
(1) The Christian God is different than the gods of other religions.
(2) Therefore, the Christian God exists.

125. ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN MORALITY (although it could probably be adapted to just about any religion)
(1) Somewhere, someone who called himself or herself a Christian did something nice.
(2) This person was probably not lying.
(3) Therefore, this person was a Christian.
(4) Therefore, Christians do nice things.
(5) Therefore, Christians are moral.
(6) Christians believe in the Bible.
(7) Therefore, the Bible is moral.
(8) The Bible is God's word. It says so.
(9) Therefore, God is moral.
(10) (We are just ignoring all the not-nice things that Christians may or may not have done in the past, it's hard to trust history anyway, there are enemies of God working everywhere).
(11) A moral God would be really nice.
(12) Therefore, God exists.

126. ARGUMENT FROM CRAZINESS, a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (I)
(1) I would go crazy if I didn't believe in God.
(2) I am not crazy.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

127. ARGUMENT FROM CHOCOLATE, a.k.a. MRS. POPE'S PROOF
(1) Chocolate is God's gift to humanity.
(2) Therefore, God exists.
(3) Now class, would anyone like to attempt an Argument From Beer?

128. ARGUMENT FROM WWJD
(1) I have the �What Would Jesus Do?� T-shirt, bracelet, baseball hat, and shoelaces.
(2) I wear them in public.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

129. ARGUMENT FROM INTEREST
(1) If God really doesn�t exist than Atheists wouldn�t spend so much time talking about him.
(2) [Atheist refutes (1).]
(3) Therefore, God exists.

130. REID�S ARGUMENT
(1) You assume that your senses are reliable even though you can�t prove it.
(2) That means I get to assume anything I want.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

131. ARGUMENT FROM INTELLECTUAL SUPERIORITY
(1) [Christian posts argument.]
(2) [Atheist refutes argument.]
(3) Atheist, you obviously didn�t understand my argument.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

132. ARGUMENT FROM CATCH-PHRASE
(1) There are no Atheists in foxholes.
(2) [Atheist points out Atheists in foxholes.]
(3) They don�t count.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

133. TERCEL�S ARGUMENT (ARGUMENT FROM PROBABILITY)
(1) We should believe what probably is true.
(2) I have arbitrarily assigned the proposition �God exists� a probability of 0.75.
(3) That probability came from my [censored], which I know assigns extremely accurate probabilities to propositions concerning the existence of God.
(4) So God probably exists.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

134. ARGUMENT FROM FREE GIFT, a.k.a. Kissing Hank's [censored] (I)
(1) If some guy came up to you on the street and offered you a billion dollars for nothing in return, would you take the money or deny his existence?
(2) Therefore, God exists.

135. ARGUMENT FROM CHARITY
(1) Atheists don�t build hospitals.
(2) [Atheist points out Bill Gates and Ted Turner, who donate millions of dollars to charity.]
(3) Yes, but do they build hospitals?
(4) Therefore, God exists.

136. ARGUMENT FROM SERIOUS ASSERTION
(1) God exists.
(2) No, seriously.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

137. ARGUMENT FROM POSITIVE OUTCOME
(1) Even if God doesn�t exist, it would be better if people believed He did.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

138. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (I)
(1) I believe that if God exists, there will be no evidence for his existence.
(2) There is no evidence for the existence of God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

139. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (II) (MODIFIED SIMPSON�S ARGUMENT)
(1) God, if you exist, please give me absolutely no sign.
(2)
(3) Therefore, God exists.

140. ARGUMENT FROM IDIOCY
(1) I am an idiot.
(2) Even an idiot can see that God exists.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

141. ARGUMENT FROM TERRORISM (I)
(1) Terrorists destroyed the WTC, killing thousands.
(2) One piece of the rubble sort of looks like a cross.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

142. ARGUMENT FROM TERRORISM (II)
(1) A plane was hijacked by terrorists.
(2) The passengers prayed and attacked the terrorists.
(3) The plane crashed into a field, killing all aboard.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

143. ARGUMENT FROM TERRORISM (III), a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (II)
(1) September 11th was really, really bad.
(2) We have bad things happen to us when we're doing something bad.
(3) Therefore, September 11th was a punishment for something we did.
(4) Maybe it was being arrogant?
(5) Yeah, that's it!
(6) God let September 11th happen to teach America humility.
(7) Therefore, God exists.

144. ARGUMENT FROM MASS MURDER
(1) Stalin was an Atheist.
(2) He murdered millions of people.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

145. ARGUMENT FROM TORNADOS
(1) A large tornado hit Kansas City.
(2) The tornado missed a church but destroyed several hundred homes.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

146. ARGUMENT FROM SPAGHETTI
(1) A few people saw something weird in a bowl of spaghetti.
(2) Some Catholics believe that it is the Virgin Mary.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

147. ARGUMENT FROM MONEY
(1) All U.S. currency contains the motto "In God We Trust."
(2) Therefore, God exists.

148. ARGUMENT FROM THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE (I)
(1) The Pledge clearly states that America is "one nation, under God * * *."
(2) The existence of God is thus a necessary condition for the existence of America.
(3) America exists.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

149. ARGUMENT FROM THE FOUNDING FATHERS (I)
(1) Some of America's Founding Fathers wrote favorably about the Bible.
(2) The Founding Fathers were really, really smart.
(3) Accordingly, the Bible must be true.
(4) The Bible says that God exists.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

150. ARGUMENT FROM THE FOUNDING FATHERS (II)
(1) The Declaration of Independence includes the words "God" and "Creator".
(2) Only a Christian would include the words "God" and "Creator"!
(3) Therefore this is a Christian Nation.
(4) A Christian Nation couldn't last over 200 years without God's help.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

151. ARGUMENT FROM THE FALL OF PAGAN ROME
(1) When Jesus was crucified, the Roman Empire was pagan, ruled by a pagan Emperor.
(2) A couple of hundred years later, lots of Romans were Christians, and the Emperor was a Christian too!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

152. ARGUMENT FROM LOTS OF BOOKS
(1) The Bible has lots of books written by lots of authors over a long period of time.
(2) Through centuries of vigorous apologetics we've been able to forge a more or less coherent plot for the whole Bible.
(3) It is beyond human ability for so many authors over so long a time to write so many books from which we could hammer such a plot.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

153. ARGUMENT FROM UNLIKE OTHER RELIGIONS (I) (argument from sacrifice)
(1) The Bible said Jesus died for our sins.
(2) No other religious text describes a god that died for our sins!
(3) Therefore, the Christian God exists.

154. ARGUMENT FROM UNLIKE OTHER RELIGIONS (II) (argument from resurrection)
(1) The Bible said Jesus rose from the dead.
(2) No other religious text describes a god that rose from the dead!
(3) Therefore, the Christian God exists.

155. ARGUMENT FROM BRUTE FORCE
(1) [Christian tears Darwin Fish off car, breaks it in thirds, sticks it to driver's side window.]
(2) Therefore, the Theory of Evolution is wrong.
(3) Therefore, creationism is right.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

156. ARGUMENT FROM TROY
(1) There is little archeological evidence for the events in Exodus.
(2) But look at Troy! It was discovered when people thought the Iliad was only a story! So who knows if there would be a time evidence for Exodus was discovered?
(3) Therefore the Exodus actually happened.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

157. ARGUMENT FROM BIBLICAL PROPHECY (I)
(1) The book of Daniel made some prophecies.
(2) The prophecy was later fulfilled by other records in the Book of Daniel.
(3) The prophecy came true!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

158. ARGUMENT FROM SHAME
(1) The Bible showed a group of people performing embarassing actions.
(2) It must be true if the book describes negative events.
(3) The Bible is describing historical events.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

159. ARGUMENT FROM EQUAL VALUE (PC argument II)
(1) Evolution and the scientific worldview is a worldview. Similarly, the biblical worldview is a worldview.
(2) You are not discriminating against our worldview are you?
(3) The Biblical worldview is as good as the scientific worldview.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

160. ARGUMENT FROM MODERATION (often employed by liberals)
(1) The Creationist side occupies an extreme side of the spectrum.
(2) Similarly, the Atheist side occupies another extreme side of the spectrum.
(3) The liberals are in between.
(4) Therefore, the liberal position on God is the most correct.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

161. ARGUMENT FROM JACK CHICK
(1) I have all these cool Jesus comics.
(2) I also think Eternal is smart with all those great arguments.
(3) Those comics sure convinced me!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

162. ARGUMENT FROM EVIDENTIAL ASSERTION, a.k.a. "Henry Morris' Argument"
(1) God exists.
(2) Therefore all physical evidence (fossil record etc) must show this.
(3) Therefore it does.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

163. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF MEANNESS
(1) If God didn't exist, it would be mean of him to make me believe he did!
(2) God isn't mean.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

164. ARGUMENT FROM WE ALL GOT FAITH
(1) We all believe in something.
(2) Therefore we all have faith.
(3) My faith in God is no different from your faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

165. ARGUMENT FROM COOLNESS
(1) That's really cool.
(2) God must have done that.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

166. ARGUMENT FROM WTC, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM TERRORISM (III)
(1) Terrorists destroyed the WTC, killing thousands.
(2) An intact Bible was found in the ruins.
(3) No, wait, it turns out it was a dictionary.
(4) Oh, well, God exists anyway.

167. ARGUMENT FROM COLLEGE FUNDING (usable by parents only)
(1) You believe in God.
(2) If I ever find out that you don't believe in God, you won't get any money for college!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

168. ARGUMENT FROM SNOWFLAKES
(1) Out of 3,300 pictures of snow-crystals catalogued no two are exactly alike. Each has 6 points crossing at a 60 degree angle. If one is like a fern it has 6 out-pointing leaves; if like a windmill, it has 6 sails; if like a starfish, 6 ribs; or if like a fir tree, 6 stems with plumes set in perfect symmetry. This makes 3 distinct triangles to each flake. The Hebrew word for snow equals 333 (Hebrew letters stand for numbers).
(2) Could it not be that God has set His symbol of the Triune God in each flake? The average snow storm produces about 1000 billion crystals.
(3) Only an intelligent being could design so many forms.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

169. ARGUMENT FROM CUSTODY (used by the parents of a friend of mine)
(1) We have legal custody of your son.
(2) If you don't act as though the Christian God existed, then we won't let you see him.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

170. ARGUMENT FROM FIDEISM, a.k.a. MARTIN GARDNER'S ARGUMENT
(1) Atheists are absolutely right. There is no logical reason to believe God exists.
(2) But He makes me feel good anyway.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

171. ARGUMENT FROM PEPPER'S PHILOSOPHY CLASS, a.k.a. THE ENERGY ARGUMENT
(1) Things that exist have energy.
(2) Energy is alive.
(3) All living things are made from energy.
(4) Therefore, God Exists.

172. ARGUMENT FROM A BAD TRIP
(1) I went to a party and took LSD.
(2) I saw demons attacking me.
(3) Then Jesus came and drove the demons away.
(4) So I joined the Assemblies of God.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

173. ARGUMENT FROM A GOOD TRIP
(1) I went to a party and took LSD.
(2) I saw God and Jesus, and they love me.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

174. ARGUMENT FROM STUPIDITY
(1) I am stupid.
(2) God made man in his own image.
(3) There are all horrible disasters going around the world.
(4) God is omnipotent in power.
(5) God is too stupid to do anything about these things.
(6) Therefore, God exists.

175. ARGUMENT FROM STAR TREK
(1) You will be assimilated.
(2) All your salvations belong to us.
(3) Resistance is futile.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

176. ARGUMENT FROM PRAYER
(1) When I pray, either it comes true or God has a better plan.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

177. ARGUMENT FROM DEMOCRACY
(1) God would never allow a non-Christian to become president.
(2) There has never been a non-Christian president.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

178. ARGUMENT FROM PAIN AVOIDANCE
(1) If I don't believe God exists, I'll go to Hell.
(2) Please don't hurt me.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

179. ARGUMENT FROM MOUNTAINS
(1) People used to think gods lived on Mt. Olympus.
(2) We've climbed Mt. Olympus and there were no gods there.
(3) Therefore, pagan gods are false.
(4) Therefore, the Christian God exists.

180. ARGUMENT FROM FUZZY ANIMALS, a.k.a. DESIGN/TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (V)
(1) Bunnies are cute.
(2) Cuteness is not an evolutionary advantage.
(3) Therefore, cuteness must have been designed.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

181. ARGUMENT FROM POLITICS
(1) The vast majority of the people believe in God.
(2) I'll get elected if I pretend to believe in God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

182. ARGUMENT FROM PRESIDENTIAL IGNORANCE
(1) If I ask God to blesserize Texas, nobody'll mess with it.
(2) Nobody messes with Texas.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

183. ARGUMENT FROM COINCIDENCE
(1) We were driving home with our youth pastor when it started to rain really hard outside.
(2) We pulled over to the side of the road, joined hands and asked gawd to deliver us home safely.
(3) We arrived home safely.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

184. ARGUMENT FROM COMPUTERS
(1) I tried to delete a copy of the TEN COMMANDMENTS from my computer. It would not have mattered as I had another copy on file.
(2) Still the computer malfunctioned.
(3) The computer had more sense than Atheists who made it.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

185. ARGUMENT FROM INVISIBILITY
(1) God is invisible.
(2) I can't see God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

186. ARGUMENT FROM RAIN, a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (III)
(1) I wanted it to be a sunny day.
(2) I prayed it wouldn't rain.
(3) We had two thunderstorms.
(4) Obviously, God didn't want to answer my prayer.
(5) Of course not! What a selfish thing to pray for! How dare I try to compel God to my selfish desires!
(6) The rain was God's punishment for my selfish desires.
(7) Therefore, God exists.

187. METACROCK'S ARGUMENT FOR GOD (I)
(1) I Have a philosophy degree.
(2) Your knowledge in philosophy is paltry in comparison to mine.
(3) Therefore you are unable to comprehend my intense philosophical proofs of God's existence.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

188. METACROCK'S ARGUMENT FOR GOD (II)
(1) I created the term "arbitrary necessity".
(2) It is a golden principle and applies to whatever I say it does.
(3) I say an eternal universe is an arbitrary necessity.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

189. ARGUMENT FROM BEER (I)
(1) "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." � Ben Franklin
(2) Beer exists.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

190. ARGUMENT FROM BEER (II)
(1) Christian: Whatever you believe in is your god.
(2) Atheist: I believe I'll have another beer.
(3) Ha ha.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

191. ARGUMENT FROM MONKEYS
(1) If man came from monkeys, there shouldn't be any more monkeys.
(2) There are still monkeys.
(3) Therefore, God Exists.

192. ARGUMENT FROM C.S. LEWIS
(1) C.S. Lewis had a lot of good arguments in favor of Christianity ... at least that�s what all my Christian friends tell me...
(2) C.S. Lewis wrote some popular books too!
(3) So anything C.S. Lewis said must be right!
(4) Therefore, God Exists.

193. ARGUMENT FROM UNIVERSAL DESTRUCTION
(1) I woke up this morning and found that the universe still exists.
(2) Therefore, its destruction was averted by God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

194. ARGUMENT FROM DEAD FIREFIGHTERS
(1) All those dead firefighters were blessed by a Catholic priest before they gave their lives.
(2) For people they didn't even know!
(3) Yes, they were TOO mostly Catholics!
(4) I just know!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

195. ARGUMENT FROM TODD BEAMER
(1) Todd Beamer prayed "Our Father" with a switchboard operator after his flight was hijacked.
(2) Todd Beamer was a hero.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

196. ARGUMENT FROM FALWELL
(1) Jerry Falwell said some really stupid things after September 11th.
(2) Then he apologized!
(3) He was inspired by God to repent!
(4) No, it had nothing to do with the public outcry!
(5) Why? Because God told me so!
(6) Therefore, God exists.

197. ARGUMENT FROM SCIENTISTS
(1) Some famous scientists believed in God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

198. ARGUMENT FROM FLOWERS, a.k.a. DESIGN/TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (VI)
(1) That flower is pretty.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

199. ARGUMENT FROM INSTRUMENTATION
(1) You are an Atheist.
(2) You did something kind.
(3) You are an instrument of God.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

200. ARGUMENT FROM QUANTUM PHYSICS
(1) Quantum physics uses an uncertainty principle.
(2) There is room for God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

201. ARGUMENT FROM THE 2nd LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS (I)
(1) The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that a closed system tends to disorder.
(2) The universe is closed and ordered.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

202. ARGUMENT FROM SONG
(1) The song "America the Beautiful" has the line "God shed his grace on thee."
(2) Therefore, God exists.

203. ARGUMENT FROM APOLOGETICS WEBPAGES
(1) I was surfing the Net and came across this really cool webpage of apologetics.
(2) Their arguments were stunning. I couldn't refute them.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

204. ARGUMENT FROM COMFORT
(1) All kinds of people have found comfort in religion.
(2) That means there must be something there to give comfort to them.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

205. ARGUMENT FROM BILL O'REILLY
(1) Atheism is challenging this country's Christian roots!
(2) We are Christians!
(3) We will make a big stink about this, and not let Atheists win!
(4) We will win because God is on our side!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

206. ARGUMENT FROM EXISTENTIAL LONELINESS
(1) This can't be all there is to existence.
(2) I mean it's so horrible, pointless, brutal and nasty.
(3) It's all so depressing.
(4) I'm lonely.
(5) There has to be something else out there.
(6) I mean it, there just has to be.
(7) THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING ELSE OUT THERE!
(8) ARRGGGG!!! THERE JUST HAS TO BE!!!!
(9) God! He can be out there for me.
(10) I'm not so lonely now!
(11) Yay!
(12) Therefore, God exists.

207. ARGUMENT FROM SINS I LIKE, a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (IV)
(1) I don't like abortion.
(2) But this is just my opinion.
(3) I want my opinion backed up with facts.
(4) But in the absence of facts, morals will do.
(5) Christians say abortion is a sin! Yeah! I have allies!
(6) But for a sin to exist and Christians to be right, God must exist.
(7) Therefore, God exists.

208. ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN SOLIPSISM
(1) Nothing but Jesus is real.
(2) See #1.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

209. The ARGUMENT FROM THE THRONE ROOM
(1) Would you stand in the presence of a mighty king and demand that he prove he exists?
(2) No?
(3) That's what you're doing with God, you arrogant bastards.
(4) I don't CARE that you can't see him!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

210. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF IMAGINATION
(1) I couldn't imagine not believing in God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

211. ARGUMENT FROM WOW
(1) When I look into the sky and see all the pretty stars, all those galaxies...
(2) Wow.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

212. ARGUMENT FROM ARMCHAIR PSYCHOANALYSIS
(1) You say there's no God?
(2) Ah, someone calling themselves Christian must have really hurt you in the past.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

213. ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN EXPERTS ARE IGNORED
(1) Dembski, Behe and Plantinga are ignored by mainstream intellectuals.
(2) Only a fear of the truth could explain this.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

214. ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN EXPERTS ARE NOT IGNORED
(1) Mainstream intellectuals are paying some attention to Dembski, Behe and Plantinga.
(2) Only a growing recognition of the truth could explain this.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

215. ARGUMENT FROM COUNTERFACTUAL EVIDENCE
(1) You claim the evidence for Jesus' divinity is non-existent.
(2) But if there were lots of evidence, you would still not be convinced.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

216. ARGUMENT FROM UNSEEN MIRACLES
(1) Atheists wouldn't believe in God even if He showed up and performed a miracle for them.
(2) See! There was a miracle right over there! Didn't you see it?
(3) No?
(4) You must be an Atheist. Therefore, you cannot see miracles.
(5) But miracles happen. You just can't see them.
(6) Likewise, God exists. You just can't see Him, because you are so determined not to.
(7) Therefore, God exists.

217. ARGUMENT FROM WIND
(1) You believe in wind.
(2) But you can't see it.
(3) God's the same way.
(4) It IS TOO analogous!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

218. ARGUMENT FROM WARREN ROBINETT
(1) There's a secret message in the video game "Adventure."
(2) It reveals that the game was Created By Warren Robinett.
(3) It's the same way with the world.
(4) Look for the secret messages, and you will find the world's Creator.
(5) Therefore, God Exists.

219. ARGUMENT FROM OFFENSIVENESS, a.k.a. GOODY2SHOES' ARGUMENT
(1) You keep making statements that I think are generalizations, hypocritical, and bigoted.
(2) I will only agree to stay if you stop that.
(3) [Non-believer tries to be non-offensive.]
(4) You're still offending me because of [insert random statement here].
(5) [Non-believer rereads her posts before posting, posting when she thinks she is not being offensive.]
(6) I'm offended!
(7) [Non-believer tears her hair out trying to figure out how to be non-offensive.]
(8) This conversation is just the two of us. I think we should stop this conversation.
(9) [Non-believer figures '[censored] it' and posts what she really thinks.]
(10) WOW! WHAT A BIGOT! I'm leaving!
(11) I have a spiritual victory.
(12) Therefore, God exists.

220. ARGUMENT FROM MULTIPLICITY (II), a.k.a. TERCEL'S ARGUMENT (II)
(1) I have a large number of arguments for God.
(2) There is a small chance that at least one of them is true.
(3) Using voodoo probability calculations, this means that there is a much greater chance that all of them are true taken together!
(4) And this ISN'T just the mathematical version of the Ontological Proof; I'm a real mathematician and you obviously can't understand this proof because you don't know as much about math as I do.
(5) Oh, and don't confuse things by mentioning how many Atheistic arguments there are, and the probability of each of them being correct...
(6) Or the fact that I basically pulled the probability of each of my arguments being correct out of my [censored]...
(7) And admit that I know more about math than you, and you'll see that...
(8) Therefore, God exists.

221. ARGUMENT FROM TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES
(1) One time, I was in deep emotional pain.
(2) I prayed to God, and felt His presence.
(3) You aren't going to deny my emotional pain, are you?
(4) Therefore, God exists.

222. ARGUMENT FROM ABUSING THE BODY
(1) One time, I fasted for three days straight, prayed on my knees for hours, and didn't sleep, either.
(2) At the end of that time, God answered me.
(3) You see, you just have to mortify the flesh and accept the things of the spirit in order to meet God.
(4) No, there is no possibility that it was a hallucination!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

223. ARGUMENT FROM ECSTASY (used by a number of saints)
(1) I woke up last night with a feeling of indescribable pleasure and joy.
(2) It couldn't have been sexual; I'm holy and never have thoughts like those.
(3) So the ecstasy must have come from God.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

224. ARGUMENT FROM FEELING LOVE ALL AROUND, a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (V)
(1) I can just feel love all around me. I know the world is a good place, that people are essentially good, and that that comes from God.
(2) I don't know how I know. It's just there. You've never felt it?
(3) I don't know how I know. Stop pestering me!
(4) [Sheds tears until nasty non-believer goes away.]
(5) Therefore, God exists.

225. ARGUMENT FROM MUSIC (could also be used for art)
(1) You like classical music.
(2) Classical composers wrote for God.
(3) [Non-believer points out that they had to compose for the Church or they would have been executed.]
(4) But they wrote for God and you like the music.
(5) Therefore, God Exists.

226. ARGUMENT FROM SADISM (I)
(1) I enjoy beating children.
(2) I find some justification for it in the Bible.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

227. ARGUMENT FROM SADISM (II), a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM MISOGYNY
(1) I enjoy treating women like dirt. It makes me feel powerful.
(2) I find some justification for it in the Bible.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

228. ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE (II)
(1) The Bible says the Bible is true.
(2) Therefore the Bible is true.
(3) The Bible says God exists.
(4) Therefore, God exist.

229. WILLIAM JAMES' ARGUMENT
(1) We should give people the benefit of the doubt.
(2) When someone says God exists, we should believe them.
(3) A lot of people say God exists.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

230. PASCAL'S ARGUMENT, a.k.a. PASCAL'S WAGER
(1) If God exists, it would be really cool. (And I would win big-time.)
(2) If God didn't exist, it would really suck. (But I wouldn't lose much.)
(3) Therefore, God exists. (Or, at least I should believe in God because it's the best bet.)

231. THE BIBLICAL PRESERVATION ARGUMENT
(1) The Bible hasn't changed much since it was written.
(2) Therefore everything in it must be true.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

232. ARGUMENT FROM BIBLICAL PROPHECY (II)
(1) Jesus clearly fulfilled all the prophecies of the Jews.
(2) I don't care if many stories were created to fulfill prophecy.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

233. THE STEWARDSHIP ARGUMENT
(1) God gave us the earth to take care of.
(2) We take care of it.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

234. ARGUMENT FROM THE 2nd LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS (II)
(1) All systems become chaotic.
(2) The Universe, too, will become chaotic.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

235. ARGUMENT FROM UNICORNS
(1) Unicorns don't exist, especially invisible pink ones.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

236. ARGUMENT FROM THE MEANING OF LIFE (I)
(1) What's the meaning of life?
(2) [Atheist gives her answer.]
(3) That's not what I believe.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

237. ARGUMENT FROM LOGIC
(1) There are some things in logic that you can't logically demonstrate.
(2) Therefore you have to take them on faith.
(3) Your faith in logic is the same as my faith in God.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

238. VELIKOVSKY'S ARGUMENT
(1) If you twist the details enough, you can make a case for Venus or a comet causing the Biblical catastrophes.
(2) Therefore the Bible is true.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

239. ARGUMENT FROM CAN'T-BE-A-RACIST
(1) Martin Luther King, Jr. believed in God.
(2) I don't think you want to say Dr. King was a fool, do you?
(3) That's what I thought.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

240. ARGUMENT FROM JESUS� TORTURE
(1) No one ever, ever suffered as much as Jesus did on the cross.
(2) No, not the victims of the Inquisition.
(3) No, not the women burned at the stake or hanged as witches.
(4) No, not all the people who died thinking they were going to Hell!!!
(5) Who but God would suffer like that for us ungrateful, unworthy humans?
(6) Therefore, God exists.

241. ARGUMENT FROM SEVERABILITY, a.k.a. THE TRUE SCOTSMAN ARGUMENT
(1) Lots of ridiculous statements are made by people who only claim is to be Real Christians.
(2) They just give Real Christians a bad name.
(3) Real Christians don't believe &lt;insert Biblical reference&gt; is literally true.
(4) But that doesn't mean the Bible isn't still mostly true.
(5) And the Bible is the Word of God.
(6) Therefore, God exists.

242. ARGUMENT FROM BECAUSE
(1) Because.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

243. ELABORATED ARGUMENT FROM BECAUSE
(1) Because.
(2) Because why?
(3) Because!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

244. ARGUMENT FROM "LET'S JUST BELIEVE," a.k.a. TAFFY LEWIS'S ARGUMENT (I)
(1) All belief systems should be treated the same as the scientific one.
(2) [non-believer: Why?]
(3) Because they have their own grounds.
(4) Anyway, that's my experience of how the world works.
(5) [non-believer: It's not mine. And why should you treat claims of unicorns less seriously than claims of gods?]
(6) I don't believe there are unicorns.
(7) But I believe there are gods.
(8) Therefore, God exists.

245. ARGUMENT FROM UNIQUE EXISTENCE
(1) God exists but not in a way that anything else that exists exists.
(2) Since there are no other things that exist as God exists, we are free to make up things about God's state of existence that ensure his continued non-observability
(3) Therefore, God exists.

246. ARGUMENT FROM POSITIVE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE, a.k.a. TAFFY LEWIS'S ARGUMENT (II)
(1) More people have had positive religious experiences in the context of Western theism.
(2) Therefore, God is kind, just, and all-loving.
(3) [non-believer: What about the people who have had negative experiences? Or experiences of God's non-existence?]
(4) They don't count.
(5) Therefore, God is just the way I describe him to be.
(5a) Oh, yeah. And God exists.

247. ARGUMENT FROM RIGHTS
(1) The Declaration of Independence founded the U.S.
(2) Therefore, the Declaration of Independence is true.

Lyle..... here is an argument for you.....

248. Arguments of lyle.....

1) Lyle posted 247 arguments,
2) Therefore Lyle must exist to argue.....

Maybe that is an issue for you, being raise as a southern baptist. Myself, I am thankful that I was not raised in e religious family, it was easier for me to see/uderstand the truth when I was old enough to think for myself, instead of being brainwashed as a child in a religious system. The reason that most people (your wife included) have the good morals you spoke of, is that he (God) gave us a conscience. I personally do not choose to, or ever desire to shove religion down people's throats. As I said earlier, you can't force people to believe things. People do need to be saved, whether they WANT it or not. Again, it's their choice. How one reads/studies the Bible is the biggest factor in their understanding.

You mentioned the "big churches" in an earlier post. I personally think that is just show business/fake, just like most of the churches out there today, a social event-fashion show. People walk in those places and check their brains at the door, unable to think for themselves. They sit there like the bobblehead on a dashboard, bobbing away, thinking about where they are going to eat afterwards the whole time. They come out, saying "oh, that was such a great message." If you were to ask them after their lunch, most of them couldn't even tell you what the message was about.

I do, personally believe the Bible is the final word of God, and that it proved itself through and through. It's how you study it that makes the difference. You can't apply the whole thing to yourself and try to live your life accordingly. It is all TO us, but is not all FOR us. Most of it was written specifically to the nation Israel, God's "chosen people". It's not until they reject God's son, and crucify him that he turns to us Gentiles.



There are some issues even with what you've written. First, it is much more likely that morals evolved because without them, a thinking species would not exist for long. The notion that God gave us our morals is questioned by his own actions as seen in the world around us, in his actions as described in the bible, and the actions of his followers. Did everyone but Moses and his family truly deserve drowning? Do new born children really deserve to die of the numerous diseases that kill them?

As for your notion that people need to be saved, I thought we were talking Christianity, not Islam? Hopefully you understand the notion that Christianity isn't the only religion that feels they have the right/responsibility to shove their beliefs down the rest of our throats.

I think I like Ron Paul's political philosophy when it comes to religion. "You don't spread democracy by forcing it on people. You set a good example thus showing them that it is desirable and they come of their own accord."



It is most likely that morals evolved? Is it that hard to believe that God gave us a conscience? People would rather rely on Man's wisdom and guessing, then the written word of God. :confused: God gave us a conscience, that is what causes us to have those morals. I do understand that Christianity is not the only religion that wants it's belivers to "spread the word". Christianity is also the only religion that serves a LIVING God. Christ rose again the 3rd day like he said he would. If it would have been the 2nd or the 4th, he would have been a liar. But he is alive, and seated on the right hand of the father. Where are all the other religions's gods? Dead.
Everyone that did not do as God instructed, and did not head to Noah's warnings about what was going to happen DID deserve to drown/die. God gave everyone the oppotunity to get on that boat, or believe what he was teaching and obey. The same goes for today, God has given us his word, and the instructions for our purpose and life are included there in. If someone dies a non-believer and goes to Hell for eternity, they deserve that. God has given us a free choice, he is not forcing us to believe, it's a choice, an easy one if you ask me. He's not asking you to do anyhting but believe that his son paid your sin debt on the cross, was buried, and 3 days later rose again. It's not about our lifestyles, habits, etc, it's all about what Christ has already done.

Is it good that there are babies that die of diseases and such today? Of course not, but God is not doing that. The Bible says that satan is the "God of this world" right now. He is in control over the earth, that's why things are getting worse and worse. First satan corrupted the heavens and then he was kicked out and came down and corrupted the earth (deceiving adam/Eve) causing sin here on earth. In Colossians, God says that through his son, he will reconcile back to himself both the heaven and the earth. He has a different plan for each. The earth has always been promised to the nation Israel-his favored or chosen nation. We (the Body of Christ) are promised the heavens. Everything from Genesis 12 to mid Acts is focused on the nation Israel and their bleesings/curses, the land and so on. When you come to the apostle Paul, he says to set your affections on "Things above" All Paul's teachings are about focusing on things above, and he says we've already got those things spiritually, it doesn't depend on our performance. The nation Israel has to perform good works to get all their blessings: If you do this...then I will bless you, but if you do not...I will curse you. There is a huge difference. Most Chrsitians today that say they are saved, will tell you they are saved by the DBR (death, burial and ressurection) Look in Matt, Mark ,Luke and John, you can't even find it in those books. The last chapter of each book tells about Christ's death, but they had NO UNDERSTANDING of what was accomplished. The last chapter of Luke talks about this, and says that he(Christ) had to open their understanding. Look at Peter's reaction when Christ tells him that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer of the chief priests, elders and scribes, then be killed and raise again 3 days later: He (Peter) said "be it far from you Lord"-or don't do it. He had NO understanding of what the cross was going to accomplish. What was Christ's reply to him? "Get thee far behind me satan" He called his own apostle satan.
God is a just and fair God, it's us that screw things up.

As far as your thoughts on Ron Paul, that fits in with the things you've written here so far. Let me ask you this. If you knew for sure a tornado was coming down the road, wouldn't you call and warn everyone you could of the wrath to come? Why? Because you care about them right? The same goes for me. I care about my friends and family, and even strangers. Again, all I can do is warn them, I can't make them take shelter. And if it depended on watching others actions to get believers, then we are in trouble. Me and the rest of the people of this world sin every day. Should we do some of the things we do? No. I do several things I know that I shouldn't do. Should I? No, and I can't or won't give you or anyone any excuses either. Thank God his Son has died for me. I'm not cursed for those things, but it does hurt my witness. How hard is it now for me to talk about God/Bible to some of the folks on here that I have participated in illegal activities with? They may not want to hear about it from me now because I have done those things with them. I can't blame them, I have set a bad example. We reap what we sow here today.

88. BENDER�S ARGUMENT (I)
(1) One day, demons were tap-dancing on my roof. I prayed and they went away.
(2) Therefore, demons are really good dancers.
(3) Also, God exists.

89. BENDER�S ARGUMENT (II) (ARGUMENT FROM DAVID BLAINE)
(1) If David Blaine does real magic, then God exists.
(2) It looked real on his TV special.
(3) Therefore, God exists.




I would just like to point out that I have made no such arguements.
Therefore, God exists.

:)

"People would rather rely on Man's wisdom and guessing, then the written word of God."

Ummm...definitely. There is no written word of god just some men that said this is the word of god. God never picked up a pen and wrote anything....there is no book of Jesus chapter 3 verse 10...just some men living in world, that you say is ruled by Satan, that wrote a book about how to positively live your life with good morals and actions and they explained these through parables, metaphors and tales about a man named Jesus

And yes I have 12 years of Catholic schooling and bible knowledge in my past and more importantly 12 more years experience of thinking for myself without any religious affiliation

Hey Pat, hows it going... Don't worry, I am not judging you.... Have a nice day... God loves you unconditionally just the same today, as he did 12 years ago.....

now i feel all warm and fuzzy inside

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?
~ Epicurus

32. ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
(1) God exists.
(2) I don't give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
(3) Therefore, God exists.



Amen. :D

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?
~ Epicurus



God has a plan that he will not deviate from. If he does, he would be a liar. He has allowed satan to reign over the earth until the return of his Son.
~Cam-(quote) :D

So that's why there is evil in the world. ;) :)

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?
~ Epicurus



God has a plan that he will not deviate from. If he does, he would be a liar. He has allowed satan to reign over the earth until the return of his Son.
~Cam-(quote) :D



Brilliant plan :o Let Satan rule for a while? Great idea...It will never fail to amaze me what Christians come up with to coerce reason....create some fantasy story to make their ideas right, instead of actually thinking.

Personally I would rather be a liar than let millions of innocent people die every year...but thats just me :confused:

Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.
~ Robert Heinlein

If you pray for rain long enough, it eventually does fall. If you pray for floodwaters to abate, they eventually do. The same happens in the absence of prayers.
~ Steve Allen

211. ARGUMENT FROM WOW
(1) When I look into the sky and see all the pretty stars, all those galaxies...
(2) Wow.
(3) Therefore, God exists.



This is not absolute proof, but evidence for the existence of God used in inductive reasoning. I agree with this one, because I've experienced it myself. Psalm 19:1 says the same thing, "The heavens proclaim the glory of God. The skies display his craftsmanship."

"So I ask you, when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry, or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death, or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trauma from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? No, you go ahead and read your Bible, Dennis, and you go to your church and with any luck you might win the annual raffle. But if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17th, and he doesn't like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex?
Let me tell you something: I AM GOD."

Alec Baldwin Malice

No matter who is right or wrong here, at least it's being discussed. I for one believe in Jesus Christ!

Look forward to seeing you next week Lowe.

agreed...accept I believe in Santa Claus

Look forward to seeing you next week Lowe.



Noputtin,

I agree with you.

I sure wish I could you see you next week, but I won't be able to make it down to Rock Hill. Rats!

Lowe

Lyle, you seem to have a very negative view of the Bible. Have you read through it or is this based on second hand observations? This is the essence of my point to Boog. If your going to critique Christianity, then at the very least one needs to examine the primary source materials and not be content to base one's opinion on the behaviors of those of us who are not perfect.



Sorry it took so long to reply. Don't even start to think that I don't know my "source materials." I know the Bible well (as a work of literature, not to quote text), the Qu'ran (a bit less), LDS materials (that I can get), have talked with Jehovah's Witnesses, Hare Krishnas, tons of Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (I live in the South) and have read the Bhagavad Gita. I don't know Buddhist texts as well, but there are also thousands of them, much like the Vedic writings, and I don't do this for a living.

So don't try and say that you have a stronger position because I don't know what I'm talking about. I have given very specific examples in all of my discussions. All of the responses from "believers" have been vague or completely switched the subject.

Don't assume because people point out how silly your beliefs are that we don't know what you believe. I would argue I can see your beliefs more clearly than you can. You are hindered by the need to prove your beliefs and defend them. If I examine something I believe and find that its wrong, I can simply cast it aside. I don't constantly struggle to make my world view fit into a mold so that I can feel like I know the mind of God. I don't have a mold. I only seek knowledge.

It is most likely that morals evolved? Is it that hard to believe that God gave us a conscience? People would rather rely on Man's wisdom and guessing, then the written word of God.



Morality is not exclusive to Homo Sapiens. It exists in most large apes, chimps, and even other mammal species. A variety of tests and been performed that support this idea, and even more are being conducted as we learn more about the function of the brain.

Morality is also directly linked to self-awareness, which is also not exclusive to Homo Saipens, but has only been shown in a measureable way in chimps and apes.

Morality evolves over time in social groups of animals, meaning it in not an immutable fact that is imprinted in us at birth, but a perception that is developed over time. Beneficial behaviours will be encouraged (such as helping other people so that they can help you), and harmful behaviours will be discouraged (such as hoarding food). You can break those rules, but there are consequences, not just biological consequences, but consequences from the other members of your society.

You can choose to just sit back and answer "God" for everything if you like. You can say all the languages came when God smote the tower of Babel and made people speak in foreign tounges. You are just choosing to be a fool. You choose belief with ignorance. Luckily, there are fewer and fewer people like you each successive generation. People are waking up an thinking for themselves. Slowly but surely.

You stated that you read the Bhagavad Gita but avoided actually answering the question. Have you read the Bible cover to cover? or have you just read the cliff notes? I have seen many who think they know the Bible well only to read it and find out that there's a lot more there that they weren't aware of. (or to think that Moses built the ark. ;) )This goes both for those with favorable and unfavorable opinions approaching it.

If I'm going to argue one way or the other about Darwin's theories, I'm not going to base it on my high school science classes. I will read Origin of the Species itself.

Just as you believe you can see my beliefs more clearly than I can, I can easily argue the reverse. You are so hindered by your need to convince yourself that you don't need God, that you need to prove your beliefs and defend them.

You say you seek knowledge. Knowledge alone does not make a man wiser.

Here's the problem with the position you're taking Cam. God is omnipotent. Do you know the definition of omnipotent? That means all powerful. If there is a devil, it is because God allows there to be a devil. If kids die of horrible diseases it's because God allows them to die. If the only way to salvation is through suffering and overcoming the temptation that Satan tosses at us, it's because God set it up that way. That's what it means to be omnipotent. If God wanted to make it such that we could sit around, watch football, and drink Coke to achieve salvation, that would be it; he writes the rules. Therefore, one has to draw one of two conclusions, logically speaking that is: 1) God is not omnipotent or 2) God's not very nice aka the dead kids suffering etc. are part of what he wants - again, because he's omnipotent.

Now, I don't care how you slice it one of those two has to be true unless you live in some alternate universe where logic doesn't apply.

If God is omnipotent, he's a jerk. First, there's the suffering thing, second there is all the physical evidence that he placed in the world around us that doesn't support the bible, i.e., someone lied to fool us, that is, unless you're willing to believe in a lie, you can't believe in me.

If God isn't omnipotent, there is something going on in the world/universe around us that God doesn't control. Who does control those things, i.e. who made the physical laws, who built greed into us, who made evolution and natural selection work, and on and on?

Now, I understand what it means to have faith, but faith in the face of common sense just means you don't want to deal with reality. Given the horrible things done in the name of Christianity and other religions, this doesn't surprise me. But it does make me feel that you should keep it to yourself and leave the rest of us alone.

Joke of the thread: What happens when a Christian meets a Muslim and an atheist? The Christian and the Muslim kill each other trying to show the atheist how good their religions are.

You stated that you read the Bhagavad Gita but avoided actually answering the question. Have you read the Bible cover to cover? or have you just read the cliff notes? I have seen many who think they know the Bible well only to read it and find out that there's a lot more there that they weren't aware of. (or to think that Moses built the ark. ;) )This goes both for those with favorable and unfavorable opinions approaching it.

If I'm going to argue one way or the other about Darwin's theories, I'm not going to base it on my high school science classes. I will read Origin of the Species itself.

Just as you believe you can see my beliefs more clearly than I can, I can easily argue the reverse. You are so hindered by your need to convince yourself that you don't need God, that you need to prove your beliefs and defend them.

You say you seek knowledge. Knowledge alone does not make a man wiser.



Yawn, I've read origin of species and numerous other books on the topic including the selfish gene. In this, I am an expert as I have a Ph.D. in Genetics in a classical genetics program that required a broad founding in evolution. I goof up their facts on occasion also (By the way, you do realize that Moses is a modern name, as is Noah, and Job, the other ocean going believer who had problems with belief and was swallowed whole). Your sanctimonious attitude that unless you can quote the bible word for word that you don't understand it is one that the religious wear with arrogance. This is part of what is wrong with Christianity today. You've got this attitude that you have the right to shove your beliefs down our throats, and that only you get it. Read what you guys are writing here. I've stated a number of times that I'm fine with religion as long as it is kept private and in every case you guys come back on here and proselytize.

So, let me be clear, I know the bible well enough, I've read it cover to cover, it's a great mythology but not even that accurate. It doesn't take knowing it verbatim to understand it's shortcomings. One only has to go to the scholars who do know it verbatim to get that information. Even believers who study the bible admit it has problems. Only those who want to live in a perfect world refuse to believe that the bible is imperfect.

BTW - Darwin, and his contemporary supporters were all believers. They were dumbfounded by what they saw. All of them reconciled Darwin's observations with the bible because they believed, and knew what they observed to be true. It is incredible to read today's current religious who lack the courage that they had, living in a world where there was much less counter evidence to religion, to accept novel ideas and fold them into their beliefs.

Final point, you believe, and in part because you arrogantly think you know the "bible" better. Shall we get a religious scholar, one who has read and knows the dead sea scrolls, to show you how little you really know? I would guess that Boog and I know more about the documents on which the modern bible is based than you do.

I can't see the wind, but I believe it is there. What I don't understand is why everyone feels that they need to argue over what other people believe in?

Faith in something that everyone chooses for themselves. I don't try to push my choices on anyone else, that is why they are "my choices".

Well said, Craig. See you in Rock Hill...

Your sanctimonious attitude that unless you can quote the bible word for word that you don't understand it is one that the religious wear with arrogance.


I'm not quite sure how you read what I have written as sanctimonious. I have not claimed that you need to quote the bible word for word. I have claimed that if you dismiss it without actually have read it, you would be basing your opinion entirely on second hand info which is inferior to first hand info if available. You claim to have read it, and thus you have done due diligence.

This is part of what is wrong with Christianity today. You've got this attitude that you have the right to shove your beliefs down our throats, and that only you get it. Read what you guys are writing here. I've stated a number of times that I'm fine with religion as long as it is kept private and in every case you guys come back on here and proselytize.


The more impassioned writing seems to come from yourself who feels the need to push your own views.


Final point, you believe, and in part because you arrogantly think you know the "bible" better. Shall we get a religious scholar, one who has read and knows the dead sea scrolls, to show you how little you really know? I would guess that Boog and I know more about the documents on which the modern bible is based than you do.



You would guess incorrectly. I could discuss the text in either the Hebrew or Greek (the Aramaic not as well), but the fonts don't make it easy, and (at this level of discussion) unnecessary.

"So I ask you, when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry, or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death, or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trauma from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? No, you go ahead and read your Bible, Dennis, and you go to your church and with any luck you might win the annual raffle. But if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17th, and he doesn't like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex?
Let me tell you something: I AM GOD."

Alec Baldwin Malice



Typically, I invoke Carl Sagan, on occasion Darwin, but usually, I go with the Doctor at hand, "Please Doc, don't be thinkin' about your next round instead of my operation!" the only time I pray to God is when the religious at hand can hear me. "Please God, don't let your children beat me to death in their fervor to prove your existence. Don't let them starve and punish those who don't believe in the same God. But most of all, please show them that the best way is the humble way, the quiet way, not screaming and yelling on the boob-tube."

I can't see the wind, but I believe it is there. What I don't understand is why everyone feels that they need to argue over what other people believe in?

Faith in something that everyone chooses for themselves. I don't try to push my choices on anyone else, that is why they are "my choices".



I think if you go back and look at the list of why God exists you will find one appropriate to your analogy...

Your sanctimonious attitude that unless you can quote the bible word for word that you don't understand it is one that the religious wear with arrogance.


I'm not quite sure how you read what I have written as sanctimonious. I have not claimed that you need to quote the bible word for word. I have claimed that if you dismiss it without actually have read it, you would be basing your opinion entirely on second hand info which is inferior to first hand info if available. You claim to have read it, and thus you have done due diligence.

This is part of what is wrong with Christianity today. You've got this attitude that you have the right to shove your beliefs down our throats, and that only you get it. Read what you guys are writing here. I've stated a number of times that I'm fine with religion as long as it is kept private and in every case you guys come back on here and proselytize.


The more impassioned writing seems to come from yourself who feels the need to push your own views.


Final point, you believe, and in part because you arrogantly think you know the "bible" better. Shall we get a religious scholar, one who has read and knows the dead sea scrolls, to show you how little you really know? I would guess that Boog and I know more about the documents on which the modern bible is based than you do.



You would guess incorrectly. I could discuss the text in either the Hebrew or Greek (the Aramaic not as well), but the fonts don't make it easy, and (at this level of discussion) unnecessary.



Please read my post script. So Doc, give us some Hebrew and Greek. I'm dyin' to hear it. Aramic would work too.

If you were really that well versed you'd realize the problems that exist in the King James version of the bible; rather, you nit pick general arguments instead of going to specifics. It's a standard debating technique uses when you don't have a leg to stand on.

As for my need to prove otherwise. Go back through the thread. First, who started the thread? Did an atheist start a thread to prove there was no God or did someone start the thread to proselytize? Second, you will see that in every case, I responded to those selling. Again, if the religious here are willing to keep it to themselves, I'd happily drop the topic.

BTW - I consider selling religion as sanctimonious. Whether it's Christianity or Islam makes no difference to me. I rather prefer Judaism, even for the evils of the state of Israel. For the most part they aren't hawking. That, Krup makes the religious sanctimonious. As for you specifically, well, your concept is basically that those, in this case Boog and myself, can't have read the bible or don't properly understand it. That's pretty sanctimonious.

I've not even argued that God doesn't exist, just that he isn't what the bible says based on logic, and that the bible has some severe factual problems based on human rewrites.

The KJV used the Latin Vulgate as a primary text rather than the Greek or Hebrew manuscripts. So what?

Standard debating techniques: I think you've used most the classic ones.

If the original poster hijacked the Ask Dave D thread then your indignation is warranted. He asked a very specific question looking for pointers to a disc golf club with a specific focus. This was in the "General Club Topics" area. Since you don't seem to have anything to add to that question and seem intent on sitting on your own soapbox, stop reading this thread and go resurrect that other thread.

The KJV used the Latin Vulgate as a primary text rather than the Greek or Hebrew manuscripts. So what?

Standard debating techniques: I think you've used most the classic ones.

If the original poster hijacked the Ask Dave D thread then your indignation is warranted. He asked a very specific question looking for pointers to a disc golf club with a specific focus. This was in the "General Club Topics" area. Since you don't seem to have anything to add to that question and seem intent on sitting on your own soapbox, stop reading this thread and go resurrect that other thread.



What, such as pointing out some real errors in the bible? You're right, that is a standard debating technique, used if you want to prove a point. Soapbox aside, again, go back and read all the posts. I will respond but if you'll drop it so will I. I am a strong believer in the American notion of freedom of religion. I believe that part of that is freedom from religion if I so choose. I'm not forcing my way on you nor arguing for it; simply for my right to it. I don't raise the point in general because I feel it is sanctimonious to force my ways on others. But, if confronted with something like this that should be kept personal, I will respond.

So Krup, can you keep your religion to yourself? Can you relate to the founding fathers who were tired of having the Church of England thrust their ways on everyone? Or like our current President, who feels that the Constitution is no longer relevant, do you think you know better?

You stated that you read the Bhagavad Gita but avoided actually answering the question. Have you read the Bible cover to cover? or have you just read the cliff notes? I have seen many who think they know the Bible well only to read it and find out that there's a lot more there that they weren't aware of. (or to think that Moses built the ark. ;) )This goes both for those with favorable and unfavorable opinions approaching it.





Yes, I've read the Bible cover to cover. Then again in piecemeal, I've probably read the Bible 3 times over. I spent 18 years in the church.


If I'm going to argue one way or the other about Darwin's theories, I'm not going to base it on my high school science classes. I will read Origin of the Species itself.



I'll assume then that you have read the Origin of Species. Good for you. I'll remember that going forward.


Just as you believe you can see my beliefs more clearly than I can, I can easily argue the reverse. You are so hindered by your need to convince yourself that you don't need God, that you need to prove your beliefs and defend them.

You say you seek knowledge. Knowledge alone does not make a man wiser.



I'm not trying to convince myself I don't need God. In case I wasn't clear previously, I have no thought in my head for God. He is not a factor in any decision process I have. It is a non-issue because there is no God. I don't think about God anymore than I think about Zeus or Shiva.

The concept of God, however, I think a lot about. How people and their perception of God shapes society and our world around us is of great importance to me. When a school board votes to teach "Intelligent Design", or the President gives money to churches to run government programs, its concerns me a great deal. I have no illusions that suddenly people will cast aside their religious beliefs. I know you aren't going to change your mind.

But I will continue to speak out against nonsense in any form that I see it, especially when it comes to religion. There is no other idea that has caused more delay in knowledge or suffering among people than when a group decides that they know the real God. And I will educate myself and others so that knowledge and learning trumps fiction and myth.


You say you seek knowledge. Knowledge alone does not make a man wiser.



Yes, it does. Belief, however, does not make you wiser.

I can't see the wind, but I believe it is there. What I don't understand is why everyone feels that they need to argue over what other people believe in?

Faith in something that everyone chooses for themselves. I don't try to push my choices on anyone else, that is why they are "my choices".



Not argue, discuss. Through exchange of ideas, you should be able to change and grow.

And though this is turning into a Science vs. Religion response, we will go with your example of wind. You may not understand the wind, but it has been explained now, and if you want to educate yourself you can. You don't have to just call it a belief, you can make it a fact.

And this is a great analogy actually, because people of faith are content to just believe in the wind. Why learn more about it? God makes wind, and that should be enough. Even better, we can tell kids they are Angel Kisses from the guardian that follows you around and keeps you from getting hurt or sick.

But its not enough, because that is not the answer. Wind does have an explanation and can be defined, measured, and examined. It has opened doors of understanding that have led to advancements in travel, energy, weather study, and more.

So I will challenge superstitions, including religion, and encourage everyone to think, learn, and expand their understanding of life. People who sit back and let belief do that for them can choose to waste their life, but I won't let it spread unchecked to others.

Freedom of Religion does not mean freedom from having those beliefs challenged.

I can't see the wind, but I believe it is there. What I don't understand is why everyone feels that they need to argue over what other people believe in?

Faith in something that everyone chooses for themselves. I don't try to push my choices on anyone else, that is why they are "my choices".



217. ARGUMENT FROM WIND
(1) You believe in wind.
(2) But you can't see it.
(3) God's the same way.
(4) It IS TOO analogous!
(5) Therefore, God exists

Well what do ya know!

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?
~ Epicurus



God has a plan that he will not deviate from. If he does, he would be a liar. He has allowed satan to reign over the earth until the return of his Son.
~Cam-(quote) :D



Brilliant plan :o Let Satan rule for a while? Great idea...It will never fail to amaze me what Christians come up with to coerce reason....create some fantasy story to make their ideas right, instead of actually thinking.

Personally I would rather be a liar than let millions of innocent people die every year...but thats just me :confused:



That's why you're not God.

Without trying to be dis-respectful, really there is nothing to be discussed with Boog and Lyle. We have different stances and beliefs. I believe the KJV is the final word of God, and that we will be judged accordingly. You two do not. That is the basis of my dscussion, and if you do not agree on that, then we can't get anywhere. No problem , as I said earlier, everyone has to make their own choices. It really is funny though, it seems the smarter or more educated (book/school) smart a person is, the harder it is for them to see a need for a savior. Pride is a dangerous attribute.

As much as you have said we are shoving this down people's throats and that we can't think for ourselves, the same is to be said of you two. I didn't go looking for a thread of Non-Believers to jump into and try to get everyone saved. If there is such a thread, I have no desire to go to, or let alone waste my time replying or trying to convince someone there is a God. Does it offend you that much that someone believes in God? I posted on here thinking I was discussing the scriptures, with believers. Someone taught you to believe what you are trying to convince us of. By nature (the moon/sun/stars/trees, etc) we know there is a God, you have to be TAUGHT otherwise, again, the wisdom of men at those nice colleges you have so graciously given your money to. Funny, reminds me of the Kanye west CD about the dad hoarding degrees. Your gonna be the smartest deadman, whata they gonna say about that? :D

Your sanctimonious attitude that unless you can quote the bible word for word that you don't understand it is one that the religious wear with arrogance.


I'm not quite sure how you read what I have written as sanctimonious. I have not claimed that you need to quote the bible word for word. I have claimed that if you dismiss it without actually have read it, you would be basing your opinion entirely on second hand info which is inferior to first hand info if available. You claim to have read it, and thus you have done due diligence.

This is part of what is wrong with Christianity today. You've got this attitude that you have the right to shove your beliefs down our throats, and that only you get it. Read what you guys are writing here. I've stated a number of times that I'm fine with religion as long as it is kept private and in every case you guys come back on here and proselytize.


The more impassioned writing seems to come from yourself who feels the need to push your own views.


Final point, you believe, and in part because you arrogantly think you know the "bible" better. Shall we get a religious scholar, one who has read and knows the dead sea scrolls, to show you how little you really know? I would guess that Boog and I know more about the documents on which the modern bible is based than you do.



You would guess incorrectly. I could discuss the text in either the Hebrew or Greek (the Aramaic not as well), but the fonts don't make it easy, and (at this level of discussion) unnecessary.



Please read my post script. So Doc, give us some Hebrew and Greek. I'm dyin' to hear it. Aramic would work too.

If you were really that well versed you'd realize the problems that exist in the King James version of the bible; rather, you nit pick general arguments instead of going to specifics. It's a standard debating technique uses when you don't have a leg to stand on.

As for my need to prove otherwise. Go back through the thread. First, who started the thread? Did an atheist start a thread to prove there was no God or did someone start the thread to proselytize? Second, you will see that in every case, I responded to those selling. Again, if the religious here are willing to keep it to themselves, I'd happily drop the topic.

BTW - I consider selling religion as sanctimonious. Whether it's Christianity or Islam makes no difference to me. I rather prefer Judaism, even for the evils of the state of Israel. For the most part they aren't hawking. That, Krup makes the religious sanctimonious. As for you specifically, well, your concept is basically that those, in this case Boog and myself, can't have read the bible or don't properly understand it. That's pretty sanctimonious.

I've not even argued that God doesn't exist, just that he isn't what the bible says based on logic, and that the bible has some severe factual problems based on human rewrites.



Lyle,please help me with all of the problems with the King James Bible.

Science has done more for the development of western civilization in one hundred years than Christianity did in eighteen hundred years.
~ Jeff Burroughs

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?
~ Epicurus



God has a plan that he will not deviate from. If he does, he would be a liar. He has allowed satan to reign over the earth until the return of his Son.
~Cam-(quote) :D



Brilliant plan :o Let Satan rule for a while? Great idea...It will never fail to amaze me what Christians come up with to coerce reason....create some fantasy story to make their ideas right, instead of actually thinking.

Personally I would rather be a liar than let millions of innocent people die every year...but thats just me :confused:



That's why you're not God.



i.e. Cam exists in that alternate universe where logic does not function. Your loss.

Google King James Bible errors. You don't even have to go to the sites by non-believers, just go to the ones by the faithful. Now, speaking of pride...





Your sanctimonious attitude that unless you can quote the bible word for word that you don't understand it is one that the religious wear with arrogance.


I'm not quite sure how you read what I have written as sanctimonious. I have not claimed that you need to quote the bible word for word. I have claimed that if you dismiss it without actually have read it, you would be basing your opinion entirely on second hand info which is inferior to first hand info if available. You claim to have read it, and thus you have done due diligence.

This is part of what is wrong with Christianity today. You've got this attitude that you have the right to shove your beliefs down our throats, and that only you get it. Read what you guys are writing here. I've stated a number of times that I'm fine with religion as long as it is kept private and in every case you guys come back on here and proselytize.


The more impassioned writing seems to come from yourself who feels the need to push your own views.


Final point, you believe, and in part because you arrogantly think you know the "bible" better. Shall we get a religious scholar, one who has read and knows the dead sea scrolls, to show you how little you really know? I would guess that Boog and I know more about the documents on which the modern bible is based than you do.



You would guess incorrectly. I could discuss the text in either the Hebrew or Greek (the Aramaic not as well), but the fonts don't make it easy, and (at this level of discussion) unnecessary.



Please read my post script. So Doc, give us some Hebrew and Greek. I'm dyin' to hear it. Aramic would work too.

If you were really that well versed you'd realize the problems that exist in the King James version of the bible; rather, you nit pick general arguments instead of going to specifics. It's a standard debating technique uses when you don't have a leg to stand on.

As for my need to prove otherwise. Go back through the thread. First, who started the thread? Did an atheist start a thread to prove there was no God or did someone start the thread to proselytize? Second, you will see that in every case, I responded to those selling. Again, if the religious here are willing to keep it to themselves, I'd happily drop the topic.

BTW - I consider selling religion as sanctimonious. Whether it's Christianity or Islam makes no difference to me. I rather prefer Judaism, even for the evils of the state of Israel. For the most part they aren't hawking. That, Krup makes the religious sanctimonious. As for you specifically, well, your concept is basically that those, in this case Boog and myself, can't have read the bible or don't properly understand it. That's pretty sanctimonious.

I've not even argued that God doesn't exist, just that he isn't what the bible says based on logic, and that the bible has some severe factual problems based on human rewrites.



Lyle,please help me with all of the problems with the King James Bible.

Lyle..... here is an argument for you.....

248. Arguments of lyle.....

1) Lyle posted 247 arguments,
2) Therefore Lyle must exist to argue.....



No cigar

249.

1) Lyle Cut and Pasted 247 arguments
2) Therefore Lyle must exist to Cut and Paste.

"The path to enlightenment is Cut, then Paste."

Buddha

I was wondering when you would see that Lyle..... :D

Lyle, King of the run-on, super long , my scroll wheel is over heating, kind of thread......

Hail to the king of five mile long threads!!

Lyle, I am in awe....... :D

Without trying to be dis-respectful, really there is nothing to be discussed with Boog and Lyle. We have different stances and beliefs. I believe the KJV is the final word of God, and that we will be judged accordingly. You two do not. That is the basis of my dscussion, and if you do not agree on that, then we can't get anywhere. No problem , as I said earlier, everyone has to make their own choices. It really is funny though, it seems the smarter or more educated (book/school) smart a person is, the harder it is for them to see a need for a savior. Pride is a dangerous attribute.

As much as you have said we are shoving this down people's throats and that we can't think for ourselves <font color="red">I'm pretty confident I didn't say this, that is that you can't think for yourself. As for the shove it down our throats, well yeah, but isn't that pretty evident? </font> , the same is to be said of you two. I didn't go looking for a thread of Non-Believers to jump into and try to get everyone saved. If there is such a thread, I have no desire to go to, or let alone waste my time replying or trying to convince someone there is a God. Does it offend you that much that someone believes in God? <font color="red">Absolutely not, read my posts. It does bother me that you're selling here. Do you really feel some need to discuss scriptures with other disc golfers at the PDGA web site? Please read my post script. And all this time I thought lying was a sin. </font> I posted on here thinking I was discussing the scriptures, with believers. Someone taught you to believe what you are trying to convince us of. By nature (the moon/sun/stars/trees, etc) we know there is a God, you have to be TAUGHT otherwise, again, the wisdom of men at those nice colleges you have so graciously given your money to. Funny, reminds me of the Kanye west CD about the dad hoarding degrees. Your gonna be the smartest deadman, whata they gonna say about that? :D



<font color="red"> I was taught not to believe, quite the opposite. The problem was, the more I learned, not in college, but in church, the more it didn't make sense. I kept seeing more and more contradictions and problems. Most of all, I kept seeing huge amounts of arrogance and judgmental behaviors all of which appalled me. After about 5 years of that I started actively researching the bible and religion and what I found, from both religious and non-religious scholars, appalled me.</font>

Now Cam, as I said to Krup, religion should be a private thing between you and your God. If you really want to discuss religion, it's called e-mail. It is simple enough to post a thread saying "I'm dying to talk about the scriptures with other disc golfers, please PM me." But I suspect we both know different.

I was wondering when you would see that Lyle..... :D

Lyle, King of the run-on, super long , my scroll wheel is over heating, kind of thread......

Hail to the king of five mile long threads!!

Lyle, I am in awe....... :D




Actually, when you cut and paste it's quite easy and requires little effort.

Wow! in awe. Does religion allow for sarcasm or is that the devil's territory?

Sarcasm is a tool for the intelligent being! A Christian is striving to be in tune to those around them and to be sensitive to the best method of communication. If that method includes a little sarcasm, what the hey, do it. The devil may have a use for it, but so does a man of God. It can be used to bring about good. That is the case with most forms of language. Tone is everything. :eek:

I personally don't refer to my belief as religion. It is my faith. I also appreciate everything people have to say good bad or indifferent.... Lyle you are included in that and I think you have some very good points.... :D

I do have trouble figuring out how you do it.... I mean You must have a real knack at cutting and pasting, because I have seen posts appear only seconds after in reply that would take me an hour to put together!!! Nice..... :D

Without trying to be dis-respectful, really there is nothing to be discussed with Boog and Lyle. We have different stances and beliefs. I believe the KJV is the final word of God, and that we will be judged accordingly. You two do not. That is the basis of my dscussion, and if you do not agree on that, then we can't get anywhere. No problem , as I said earlier, everyone has to make their own choices. It really is funny though, it seems the smarter or more educated (book/school) smart a person is, the harder it is for them to see a need for a savior. Pride is a dangerous attribute.

As much as you have said we are shoving this down people's throats and that we can't think for ourselves <font color="red">I'm pretty confident I didn't say this, that is that you can't think for yourself. As for the shove it down our throats, well yeah, but isn't that pretty evident? </font> , the same is to be said of you two. I didn't go looking for a thread of Non-Believers to jump into and try to get everyone saved. If there is such a thread, I have no desire to go to, or let alone waste my time replying or trying to convince someone there is a God. Does it offend you that much that someone believes in God? <font color="red">Absolutely not, read my posts. It does bother me that you're selling here. Do you really feel some need to discuss scriptures with other disc golfers at the PDGA web site? Please read my post script. And all this time I thought lying was a sin. </font> I posted on here thinking I was discussing the scriptures, with believers. Someone taught you to believe what you are trying to convince us of. By nature (the moon/sun/stars/trees, etc) we know there is a God, you have to be TAUGHT otherwise, again, the wisdom of men at those nice colleges you have so graciously given your money to. Funny, reminds me of the Kanye west CD about the dad hoarding degrees. Your gonna be the smartest deadman, whata they gonna say about that? :D



<font color="red"> I was taught not to believe, quite the opposite. The problem was, the more I learned, not in college, but in church, the more it didn't make sense. I kept seeing more and more contradictions and problems. Most of all, I kept seeing huge amounts of arrogance and judgmental behaviors all of which appalled me. After about 5 years of that I started actively researching the bible and religion and what I found, from both religious and non-religious scholars, appalled me.</font>

Now Cam, as I said to Krup, religion should be a private thing between you and your God. If you really want to discuss religion, it's called e-mail. It is simple enough to post a thread saying "I'm dying to talk about the scriptures with other disc golfers, please PM me." But I suspect we both know different.



Sorry to hear about your church experience, that is what is wrong with these "Mega" churches, and even the small churches here today. I live in the so called "Bible Belt" where there is a church on just about every corner. Each one has their own doctrinal statement and bend and twist the scriptures to their liking. Farmer Ted didn't like the way farmer Tom planted his tamaters, so he spun off and made a new church.

You are also right about the arrogance and judgemental behaviors, which I am also guilty of at times. I do disagree on the "finding contradictions" in the bible. There are contradictions if you do not "Rightly Divide the word of truth" as we are instructed to do in 2 Tim 2:15. -Recognize where God has placed his divisions in the scriptures, or who he is talking to at that particular time. Example is the first verse of the book of James: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, <font color="red"> </font> to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad,greeting. <font color="red"> </font> This tells us who this particular book is written to. From your earlier posts, I gather that you do have Bible knowledge, and that knowledge tells you that we are Gentiles, not Jews. For someone to try to apply the rules in the book of James to their "Christian walk" today would be wrong, according to the scriptures. There are many more examples. I believe all of the bible is FOR us, but not all TO us. Thats why people aren't being miraculously healed and such today. God promised those things to Israel, not us Gentiles. 1 Cor 1:22 says "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom" It was a foretaste of the coming Kingdom to be set up here on earth. Today if you ask any "believer" if they were to die, they would say they were going UP to heaven. From Gen 12 when God calls out Abram, to mid-Acts, ALL of the focus and promises are focused on an EARTHLY kingdom. When you come to Paul, he has the message for the "Body of Christ" and says to focus your sights on "things above" or on Heavenly Places. These 2 things contradict if you do not rightly divide them.

As I said earlier, I do believe the KJV is the inspired word of God, and it tells me that my beliefs and the bible are not supposed to be a private thing. I am not ashamed of it for sure. I do respect your opinion, and you have the right to believe otherwise, it's your choice. <font color="red"> </font>

I personally believe in the Sun. I can see the Sun. The Sun provides all of the energy on earth either indirectly or directly, and is the cornerstone of life on Earth, and without it life could not exist on earth. All worship the Sun!

In all seriousness ... the reason many non-religous people feel that people who believe relidion force it down their throat is because of how religosu people are represented publically. Most times they are represented by the extreme fanaticals who want everyone to follow their beliefs and want laws structured to impose their morality on all. That is wrong, laws shouldn't be based on the morals or religion.

Also, onto another point of contention with religion. Many of the relgious leaders, at least those on TV, are hipocrical idiots that preach the bible and then get busted for smoking meth with their [censored] boyfriend. I personally don't what you do, but don't get on a soapbox and tell me what is right and wrong, only to get busted for doing what you say is wrong, and then go the old cop out of I've sinned and I'm sorry. That is totally killing the cred of the religous right.

I don't believe in Santa Claus although millions of people do! There's stories and photos and books and movies about him, yet I still don't believe he exists....

That's how I see man-made religion....just images and stories (which differs from religion to religion) of something or someone adults created to keep children "in line." Unfortunately, when children get older, they're told Santa doesn't exist but are told Jesus/God still does!

Clearly, we went wrong somewhere....

...just images and stories (<font color="red">which differs from religion to religion</font>) of something or someone adults created...



I was surprised that they don't differ near as much as I originally thought; raised as a Catholic it doesn't surprise me that I was so surprised.
Watch part one of Zeitgeist...Thanks Bryan: Don't Watch This (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=712116&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Post7 12116)

interesting flick...I had my doubts about its authenticity but I did a little research and all of their sources are credible and real...

How to Believe in God
Six Easy Steps
1. First, you must want to believe in God.
2. Next, understand that believing in God in the absence of evidence is especially noble.
3. Then, realize that the human ability to believe in God in the absence of evidence might itself constitute evidence for the existence of God.
4. Now consider any need for further evidence (both in yourself and in others) to be a form of temptation, spiritually unhealthy, or a corruption of the intellect.
5. Refer to steps 2-4 as acts of �faith.�
6. Return to 2.

How to Believe in God
Six Easy Steps
1. First, you must want to believe in God.
2. Next, understand that believing in God in the absence of evidence is especially noble.
3. Then, realize that the human ability to believe in God in the absence of evidence might itself constitute evidence for the existence of God.
4. Now consider any need for further evidence (both in yourself and in others) to be a form of temptation, spiritually unhealthy, or a corruption of the intellect.
5. Refer to steps 2-4 as acts of �faith.�
6. Return to 2.


Well Spoken. I totally agree with you.
The Lord Jesus Christ resides within my HEART
and I am proud to share his Word.
Cheryl Eldridge~

How to Believe in God
Six Easy Steps
1. First, you must want to believe in God.
2. Next, understand that believing in God in the absence of evidence is especially noble.
3. Then, realize that the human ability to believe in God in the absence of evidence might itself constitute evidence for the existence of God.
4. Now consider any need for further evidence (both in yourself and in others) to be a form of temptation, spiritually unhealthy, or a corruption of the intellect.
5. Refer to steps 2-4 as acts of �faith.�
6. Return to 2.



<font color="red"> Next, understand that believing in God in the absence of evidence is especially noble. </font>
How self aggrandizing of you. Noble is defined as, "of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence". And when you talk about God I'm assuming you are referring to the Judeo Christain God. So because you choose to believe in something without evidence you are somehow noble and thus are better and more moral than people who do not. I have another word for those who believe in things despite a lack of evidence. It called iggnorant.

<font color="red"> Then, realize that the human ability to believe in God in the absence of evidence might itself constitute evidence for the existence of God. </font>
That is completely flawed logic. Let me put it this way. Then, realize that the human ability to believe in David Koresh in the absense of evidence might itself constitute evidence for the existence of God. In addition the idea is to believe in absense of evidence, not to believe because of evidence. That is why it is called faith, there is no evidence. This is typically of biblical science. Trying to use lack of evidence to fill in holes.

<font color="red"> Now consider any need for further evidence (both in yourself and in others) to be a form of temptation, spiritually unhealthy, or a corruption of the intellect. </font>
Oh I get it, if people question your faith (as in most of the world that doesn't belive in my god) then they are spiritually unhealthly and their minds are corrupt. I thought as Christains you where not to judge others and that god is the ultimate judge. Sure sounds like you are judging those that require logically evidence.

Let me make it simple for you. Most of the world does not believe as you do. You are wrong. There is no "god" as you have defined it. The reason humans believe in god is because they are so evolved as a species that they have gone past the point of mere self survival and are looking for enlightened thoughts like why are we here. What is our purpose. The void is filled in iggnorant by god. There may be some spirit, or force that governs the universe and create us all. But I am 100% that it isn't the Judeo Christain God as defined by those religions today.

Belief in the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based on:
1) Faith -- because we know in our heart the Invisible Pink Unicorn exits
2) Science -- she must be invisible since we cannot see her

http://www.invisiblepinkunicorn.com/download/ipulogoblack_small.gif

Well, well. Quite the detailed response.

You may call it "iggnorant" but I can assure you that it is spelled <u>ignorant</u>. You might want to look into that if you're interested in gaining a bit more credibility for your position.

Credibility = the power or ability of inspiring belief.

Now, back to the Flying Spaghetti Monster

People used to believe the Earth was flat, too.

BaggerVance, you are my new hero! a Texan who doesn't believe in the Bible! (bowing down to you on my knees). You are one of a kind!!

\mm/ \mm/

ROCK ON!

Well, well. Quite the detailed response.

You may call it "iggnorant" but I can assure you that it is spelled <u>ignorant</u>. You might want to look into that if you're interested in gaining a bit more credibility for your position.

Credibility = the power or ability of inspiring belief.

Now, back to the Flying Spaghetti Monster



It's called a typo. Please feel free to critque the post based on content and not grammer.

Grammar. :D

Finally someone who gets my humor. :D Upon further review I unintentionally had a typo on the word Critique too. When is this thing going to be updated into the 21st century with a spellcheck feature. I've become so lazy I never re-read my posts.

Well, well. Quite the detailed response.

You may call it "iggnorant" but I can assure you that it is spelled <u>ignorant</u>. You might want to look into that if you're interested in gaining a bit more credibility for your position.

Credibility = the power or ability of inspiring belief.

Now, back to the Flying Spaghetti Monster



Honestly I am sick of the Christian enthusiasts throughout my entire life replying to a validating argument with a critique on grammar, punctuation, or exact scripture knowledge not the validity of the statements made! My priest used to do this when I was 10 and asked a completely logical question that had no answer!!!


How I view the bible...
Your believing in a story WRITTEN BY MEN, about a god that says ALL MEN ARE UNTRUTHFUL SINNING BEINGS that can't be trusted...oxymoronic? How could you then believe these passages? I know i know....its the word of god :D

anyone see any flawed logic there? Oh I forgot blind faith concurs all logic, reason, fact, science, and research

How I view the bible...
Your believing in a story WRITTEN BY MEN, about a god that says ALL MEN ARE UNTRUTHFUL SINNING BEINGS that can't be trusted...oxymoronic? How could you then believe these passages? I know i know....its the word of god :D

anyone see any flawed logic there?



I DO! I DO! (hand waving in air!)

Who Wrote the Bible ?

�Who wrote the Bible� is a question that is undoubtedly asked by many who are familiar with the impact this book has made on people around the world. The Bible gives guidance in our journey through life to eternity, as well as leads us to a relationship with the God of the universe. It is a historical book that is backed by archeology, and a prophetic book that has lived up to all of its claims thus far. In light of all these facts, asking, �who wrote the bible,� is a vital question that deserves serious investigation and a serious response. The Bible is God�s letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers. These writers come from all walks of life (i.e., kings to fishermen) and spans over a period of 1,500 years or more. These claims may seem dramatic (or unrealistic to some), but a careful and honest study of the biblical scriptures will show them to be true.

Who Wrote the Bible - Evidence of Divine Inspiration
�Who wrote the Bible� is a question that can be definitively answered by examining the biblical texts in light of the external evidences that supports its claims. 2 Timothy 3:16 states that �All scripture is inspired by God�.� In 2 Peter 1:20-21, Peter reminds the reader to �know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one�s own interpretation, � but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.� The Bible itself tells us that it is God who is the author of His book.

God does not leave us with just claims of His divine handiwork in the Bible, but also supports it with compelling evidence. The design of the Bible itself is a miracle. Written over more than 1,500 years by vastly different writers, yet every book in the Bible is consistent in its message. These 66 books talk about history, prophecy, poetry, and theology. Despite their complexity, differences in writing styles and vast time periods, the books of the Bible agree miraculously well in theme, facts and cross-referencing. No human beings could have planned such an intricate combination of books over a 1,500-year time span. Bible manuscripts (remember, there were no printing presses until 1455) have survived despite weather, persecution and time. Most ancient writings written on weak materials like papyrus have vanished all together. Yet many copies of the Old Testament scriptures survived. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls contain all books of the Old Testament, except Esther, and have been dated to before the time of Christ. Consider Julius Caesar�s Gallic Wars. Only ten copies written about 1,000 years after the event are in existence. In comparison, there are over 24,000+ New Testament manuscripts, the earliest one dating to within 24 years after Christ.

The Bible also validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). An honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the divine authorship of the Bible. Further, archeology confirms (or in some cases supports) accounts in the biblical record. No other holy book comes close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its divine authorship.

Who Wrote the Bible - A Question of Eternal Significance
�Who Wrote the Bible� is indeed a question that everyone must ask. If indeed it is the Word of the living God, then no other book gives us more insight into our lives, more hope for our future, and a true path to a relationship with God. Search the Bible with openness and honesty and see for yourself what the Creator of the universe wants to tell you!

Nice Post.

<font color="red">YAWN! No really, even though I'm writing this book, you can trust me when I tell you it was inspired by God.

Look, I've got some land in Florida that God is telling me that you need to buy...

Listing the item in question as the source of it's relevance is poor logic at best. Even if you credit the original writings as God inspired, what we have in the KJV of the bible strays far from the original writings. So, are you saying that every shlep that came along after the original guys was also divinely inspired? That's fine but why then did God change his mind so frequently? That is, why is so much of the original material left out or modified (can you say consistency achieved through rewrites...)?

Any examination of any major religion that has taken any action that was "divinely" inspired has shown the fallacy of going with that concept. Personally, I think it's all a practical joke on the part of God. One day he was having a beer with Gabriel and Joseph and he said, hey, I bet I could get those dumb schmucks down there to spend oodles of time worshiping me if I slip a couple of guys some tainted mushrooms. Even now they're taking odds on how the whole thing is going to come out. Of course Shiva, The Great Spirit, some Chinese ancestors, Buddha, MGod (Muslim God) and Stalin are all having the same bet. I bet you could get a tenner down on it in Vegas...

BTW - Nostradamus has higher accuracy than the bible. Does that mean he's God? Oh man, I am so confused.

The ability of the religious to ignore the obvious possibility that miracles and calamities are easily predicted truly is a testament to their faith.

1) A pestilence will strike down those on the earth killing one in 10 in some areas (can you say avian flu or even better, one day ebola gets on a plane).

2) Earthquakes and floods will visit large parts of the earth killing thousands (this one was really tough to predict).

3) Lights in the sky will be seen by millions confirming God's benevolence (darn those spot lighters).

4) Locusts will destroy millions of acres of crops (Oh wait, that one is already happening, again).

5) Fires will ravage the forests (darn it that one is happening too, oh well, it'll happen again).

6)A great King of a mighty nation will be assassinated (wanna bet).

Now, you want to show me a real prophesy. Show me one of them televangelists walkin' on water. That shouldn't be too hard to accomplish.</font>



Who Wrote the Bible ?

�Who wrote the Bible� is a question that is undoubtedly asked by many who are familiar with the impact this book has made on people around the world. The Bible gives guidance in our journey through life to eternity, as well as leads us to a relationship with the God of the universe. It is a historical book that is backed by archeology, and a prophetic book that has lived up to all of its claims thus far. In light of all these facts, asking, �who wrote the bible,� is a vital question that deserves serious investigation and a serious response. The Bible is God�s letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers. These writers come from all walks of life (i.e., kings to fishermen) and spans over a period of 1,500 years or more. These claims may seem dramatic (or unrealistic to some), but a careful and honest study of the biblical scriptures will show them to be true.

Who Wrote the Bible - Evidence of Divine Inspiration
�Who wrote the Bible� is a question that can be definitively answered by examining the biblical texts in light of the external evidences that supports its claims. 2 Timothy 3:16 states that �All scripture is inspired by God�.� In 2 Peter 1:20-21, Peter reminds the reader to �know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one�s own interpretation, � but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.� The Bible itself tells us that it is God who is the author of His book.

God does not leave us with just claims of His divine handiwork in the Bible, but also supports it with compelling evidence. The design of the Bible itself is a miracle. Written over more than 1,500 years by vastly different writers, yet every book in the Bible is consistent in its message. These 66 books talk about history, prophecy, poetry, and theology. Despite their complexity, differences in writing styles and vast time periods, the books of the Bible agree miraculously well in theme, facts and cross-referencing. No human beings could have planned such an intricate combination of books over a 1,500-year time span. Bible manuscripts (remember, there were no printing presses until 1455) have survived despite weather, persecution and time. Most ancient writings written on weak materials like papyrus have vanished all together. Yet many copies of the Old Testament scriptures survived. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls contain all books of the Old Testament, except Esther, and have been dated to before the time of Christ. Consider Julius Caesar�s Gallic Wars. Only ten copies written about 1,000 years after the event are in existence. In comparison, there are over 24,000+ New Testament manuscripts, the earliest one dating to within 24 years after Christ.

The Bible also validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). An honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the divine authorship of the Bible. Further, archeology confirms (or in some cases supports) accounts in the biblical record. No other holy book comes close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its divine authorship.

Who Wrote the Bible - A Question of Eternal Significance
�Who Wrote the Bible� is indeed a question that everyone must ask. If indeed it is the Word of the living God, then no other book gives us more insight into our lives, more hope for our future, and a true path to a relationship with God. Search the Bible with openness and honesty and see for yourself what the Creator of the universe wants to tell you!

People used to believe the Earth was flat, too.



Uhhhh, some of us still do. Please don't denigrate my beliefs you infidel.

BTW Senior, the notion that the archaeological record supports the bible is classic blinder mentality. It looks at the handful of archaeological records that support the bible (ignoring the possibility that the bible is based on real archaeological events that had nothing to do with religion, but that got incorporated into the Christian myth, sort of like Christmas and other pagan holidays did) and ignores the thousands of archaeological events that contradict the bible.

Hey Pat, I'm not sure which it is, but I use Firefox and Open Office and one of them provides a universal spell check that operates here. Of course it won't stop me from using You're when I want Your but still.

Fanatics fall back on anything they can when it is obvious that they don't have a leg to stand on. If you can't deny the facts, point out that the presenter is wearing Santa Claus boxers, it works every time.

When is this thing going to be updated into the 21st century with a spellcheck feature. I've become so lazy I never re-read my posts.



When will you see the light and use Firefox? Built-in spellcheck :^:

Who Wrote the Bible ? ...



And more from the same web site (http://www.allabouttruth.org/who-wrote-the-bible.htm) from which Senior copied his post:

Creationism (http://www.allaboutcreation.org/creation-evidence.htm)
Debunking the Geologic Time Scale (http://www.allaboutcreation.org/geologic-time-scale.htm)
Young Earth (http://www.allaboutcreation.org/age-of-the-earth-c.htm)
Dinosaur Extinction due to flood 4400 years ago (http://www.allaboutcreation.org/dinosaur-extinction.htm)

and more ... (http://www.allaboutcreation.org/)

ahh the truth...using some random guys horribly inaccurate and biased web-site to contradict all reason and logic to make yourself feel better about what you believe...There is also a web-site out there more convincing than that one that states that we are all a scientific experiment put on Earth by aliens...I tend to put them both in the same category

For the most part I've stopped posting here or even reading it because it's a waste of time.

You might want to check out a new thread that I just started called Disc Golfers for Something?? (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=747040&amp;page=0&amp;vc=#Post74 7040) That would be a great place to have some discussion about what you spiritual beliefs are. The humanists here can also share why there is no such thing as a spirit in the first place anyway.

Lots of you have been having a field day lambasting Christian belief. All I can say is that there are legitimate answers to every question you've asked. People far more intelligent and learned than you have asked the same questions and found logically satisfying answers. Is there 100% certain irrefutable proof? NO. As with law or history Christian belief is inductively reasoned.

Here's a challenge for all of you who scoff at Christianity: What do YOU believe? Do you have 100% proof that your beliefs about God, the spirit, whether or not there is an after life... are true? NO. All I ask is that you put your beliefs about the spiritual realm to same rigor that you've subjected the Christians too.

I do have to say though, that some of the views expressed by Christians on here have done more harm than good. Their beliefs are odd or fringe and given y'all endless fodder to poke fun at. I've often cringed myself at what some of the Christians have said. Some of the views have been solid truth, though.

Later,
Lowe

well put

<font color="red">YAWN! No really, even though I'm writing this book, you can trust me when I tell you it was inspired by God.

Look, I've got some land in Florida that God is telling me that you need to buy...

Listing the item in question as the source of it's relevance is poor logic at best. Even if you credit the original writings as God inspired, what we have in the KJV of the bible strays far from the original writings. So, are you saying that every shlep that came along after the original guys was also divinely inspired? That's fine but why then did God change his mind so frequently? That is, why is so much of the original material left out or modified (can you say consistency achieved through rewrites...)?

Any examination of any major religion that has taken any action that was "divinely" inspired has shown the fallacy of going with that concept. Personally, I think it's all a practical joke on the part of God. One day he was having a beer with Gabriel and Joseph and he said, hey, I bet I could get those dumb schmucks down there to spend oodles of time worshiping me if I slip a couple of guys some tainted mushrooms. Even now they're taking odds on how the whole thing is going to come out. Of course Shiva, The Great Spirit, some Chinese ancestors, Buddha, MGod (Muslim God) and Stalin are all having the same bet. I bet you could get a tenner down on it in Vegas...

BTW - Nostradamus has higher accuracy than the bible. Does that mean he's God? Oh man, I am so confused.

The ability of the religious to ignore the obvious possibility that miracles and calamities are easily predicted truly is a testament to their faith.

1) A pestilence will strike down those on the earth killing one in 10 in some areas (can you say avian flu or even better, one day ebola gets on a plane).

2) Earthquakes and floods will visit large parts of the earth killing thousands (this one was really tough to predict).

3) Lights in the sky will be seen by millions confirming God's benevolence (darn those spot lighters).

4) Locusts will destroy millions of acres of crops (Oh wait, that one is already happening, again).

5) Fires will ravage the forests (darn it that one is happening too, oh well, it'll happen again).

6)A great King of a mighty nation will be assassinated (wanna bet).

Now, you want to show me a real prophesy. Show me one of them televangelists walkin' on water. That shouldn't be too hard to accomplish.</font>



Who Wrote the Bible ?

�Who wrote the Bible� is a question that is undoubtedly asked by many who are familiar with the impact this book has made on people around the world. The Bible gives guidance in our journey through life to eternity, as well as leads us to a relationship with the God of the universe. It is a historical book that is backed by archeology, and a prophetic book that has lived up to all of its claims thus far. In light of all these facts, asking, �who wrote the bible,� is a vital question that deserves serious investigation and a serious response. The Bible is God�s letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers. These writers come from all walks of life (i.e., kings to fishermen) and spans over a period of 1,500 years or more. These claims may seem dramatic (or unrealistic to some), but a careful and honest study of the biblical scriptures will show them to be true.

Who Wrote the Bible - Evidence of Divine Inspiration
�Who wrote the Bible� is a question that can be definitively answered by examining the biblical texts in light of the external evidences that supports its claims. 2 Timothy 3:16 states that �All scripture is inspired by God�.� In 2 Peter 1:20-21, Peter reminds the reader to �know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one�s own interpretation, � but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.� The Bible itself tells us that it is God who is the author of His book.

God does not leave us with just claims of His divine handiwork in the Bible, but also supports it with compelling evidence. The design of the Bible itself is a miracle. Written over more than 1,500 years by vastly different writers, yet every book in the Bible is consistent in its message. These 66 books talk about history, prophecy, poetry, and theology. Despite their complexity, differences in writing styles and vast time periods, the books of the Bible agree miraculously well in theme, facts and cross-referencing. No human beings could have planned such an intricate combination of books over a 1,500-year time span. Bible manuscripts (remember, there were no printing presses until 1455) have survived despite weather, persecution and time. Most ancient writings written on weak materials like papyrus have vanished all together. Yet many copies of the Old Testament scriptures survived. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls contain all books of the Old Testament, except Esther, and have been dated to before the time of Christ. Consider Julius Caesar�s Gallic Wars. Only ten copies written about 1,000 years after the event are in existence. In comparison, there are over 24,000+ New Testament manuscripts, the earliest one dating to within 24 years after Christ.

The Bible also validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). An honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the divine authorship of the Bible. Further, archeology confirms (or in some cases supports) accounts in the biblical record. No other holy book comes close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its divine authorship.

Who Wrote the Bible - A Question of Eternal Significance
�Who Wrote the Bible� is indeed a question that everyone must ask. If indeed it is the Word of the living God, then no other book gives us more insight into our lives, more hope for our future, and a true path to a relationship with God. Search the Bible with openness and honesty and see for yourself what the Creator of the universe wants to tell you!





Hey, I can cut and paste with the best of them! Except Lyle of course.... He still reigns supreme!

Well, well. Quite the detailed response.

You may call it "iggnorant" but I can assure you that it is spelled <u>ignorant</u>. You might want to look into that if you're interested in gaining a bit more credibility for your position.

Credibility = the power or ability of inspiring belief.

Now, back to the Flying Spaghetti Monster



Honestly I am sick of the Christian enthusiasts throughout my entire life replying to a validating argument with a critique on grammar, punctuation, or exact scripture knowledge not the validity of the statements made! My priest used to do this when I was 10 and asked a completely logical question that had no answer!!!



I may be wrong, but I think that the guy who wrote the post you quoted, Mike August, is a neutral party. If I remember correctly he is not a Christian. Mike, did I get that right?

How I view the bible...
Your believing in a story WRITTEN BY MEN, about a god that says ALL MEN ARE UNTRUTHFUL SINNING BEINGS that can't be trusted...oxymoronic? How could you then believe these passages? I know i know....its the word of god

anyone see any flawed logic there? Oh I forgot blind faith concurs all logic, reason, fact, science, and research



I see a flaw in your logic. I'll lay out my thinking:
1. Before the Big Bang there was no matter or energy in the Universe. There was nothing.
2. Something cannot come from nothing. So there had to be something or someone outside of the universe to create it.
3. Only God could create the mass/energy of the universe. (Admittedly a statement of faith. I wasn't there and it can't be repeated to be scientifically verified.)
4. If God did create the universe then he has unimaginable power.
5. There are approximately 10 to the 200th power (how do you do exponents on here?) stars in the universe, so the earth is a very tiny speck in that vastness and man is even tinier.
6. People are fallible and corrupted.
7. This powerful God has enough power to work through fallible and corrupted people to create an infallible book that is His Word to mankind. With God's power I just don't think it's that hard for Him to do.

OK, Lyle and the Lions, I'm sure you'll rip this apart.

I really don't know why I'm back on here again. I guess it's to encourage the readers that haven't made up their minds yet.

I really don't have the time for this, so I'll get back as I can.

BTW, the first question to answer is "Who is Jesus?" If He really is God then most of the other questions fall into place.

Respectfully and cordially,
Lowe

Yes, I would say I'm neutral. I'm all for good morals and treating each other with kindness, human dignity, and respect. I'm not so keen on organized religion and those who would use it as a means of gaining wealth or promoting a political agenda.

I see a flaw in your logic. I'll lay out my thinking:
1. Before the Big Bang there was no matter or energy in the Universe. There was nothing.



When you talk about the Big Bang you enter the realm of science. It is improper to say "before the Big Bang" as there was no before. Time begins with the Big Bang. It is improper to say "no matter or Energy in the Universe" as our universe is the matter and energy in the Big Bang. Science is empirical and cannot see "before" the Big Bang, so your entire premise is flawed.

This is the problem with trying to invoke science to either prove or disprove God. The frame of reference is totally wrong.

I'm not so keen on organized religion and those who would use it as a means of gaining wealth or promoting a political agenda.



I couldn't agree more! That's why Jesus is so attractive to me. He lived a life of total humility and sacrificial love. He rejected both wealth and politics.

For the most part I've stopped posting here or even reading it because it's a waste of time.

You might want to check out a new thread that I just started called Disc Golfers for Something?? (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=747040&amp;page=0&amp;vc=#Post74 7040) That would be a great place to have some discussion about what you spiritual beliefs are. The humanists here can also share why there is no such thing as a spirit in the first place anyway.

Lots of you have been having a field day lambasting Christian belief. All I can say is that there are legitimate answers to every question you've asked. People far more intelligent and learned than you have asked the same questions and found logically satisfying answers. Is there 100% certain irrefutable proof? NO. As with law or history Christian belief is inductively reasoned.

Here's a challenge for all of you who scoff at Christianity: What do YOU believe? Do you have 100% proof that your beliefs about God, the spirit, whether or not there is an after life... are true? NO. All I ask is that you put your beliefs about the spiritual realm to same rigor that you've subjected the Christians too.

I do have to say though, that some of the views expressed by Christians on here have done more harm than good. Their beliefs are odd or fringe and given y'all endless fodder to poke fun at. I've often cringed myself at what some of the Christians have said. Some of the views have been solid truth, though.

Later,
Lowe



Lowe, you ought to know better. That's what science is all about. It doesn't mean selectively applying the scientific method to some things and not others, it means applying it to everything and the chips fall where they will.

This is the problem I have with religion, it applies hyper-critical analysis to science, based on non-factual information, while dogmatically accepting "religious facts" based on "faith," i.e. it makes me feel good.

I believe what science shows me, and apply the scientific method to everything in my life. Guess what Lowe, life is hard and we get one shot at it. That means what I do here is important and I had better do a good job at it. That said Lowe, because I accept science I understand that the impetus to do a good job in this life-time is built into my genes. Competition makes me want to do a good job and it makes me debate this point with you guys.

Accepting that life is what we have here and now is tough. Those who chose religion, IMO, have real problems accepting that.

Marx had "some" good points and one of them is that religion is the opiate of the masses. That it has been used effectively by the rich to keep the poor from realizing they've been hooked. Some things don't change.

BTW - there are many questions asked here for which there are no legitimate answers. It's easy to say what you've said Lowe, but no one is giving answers. If it were easy, then the religious would answer those questions.

Yes, I would say I'm neutral. I'm all for good morals and treating each other with kindness, human dignity, and respect. I'm not so keen on organized religion and those who would use it as a means of gaining wealth or promoting a political agenda.



Best and most pertinent point made here!

How I view the bible...
Your believing in a story WRITTEN BY MEN, about a god that says ALL MEN ARE UNTRUTHFUL SINNING BEINGS that can't be trusted...oxymoronic? How could you then believe these passages? I know i know....its the word of god

anyone see any flawed logic there? Oh I forgot blind faith concurs all logic, reason, fact, science, and research



I see a flaw in your logic. I'll lay out my thinking:
1. Before the Big Bang there was no matter or energy in the Universe. There was nothing. <font color="red"> This is a religious view of the big bang. The theory doesn't tell us what was there before. Instead it is based on the concrete observation that the universe is expanding from a single point. That observation is so easy to make that no one disputes it. Science, unlike religion, doesn't try and explain everything, instead it looks for answers. That everything came from one point is observationally correct, what was there before is one of the questions that scientists continue to pursue. Does it bother you Lowe that not everything has an answer yet?

It is very easy to say that God made matter and all energy. But then you run into the axiom that God is omnipotent. If so, why is the world we live in such a mess? Omnipotence means the ability to make it better, well perfect actually. </font>
2. Something cannot come from nothing. <font color="red"> This is classic! So... what did God come from if something can't come from nothing? It is, pardon me, humorous that you can accept that God was always there or that he came from nothing, but not that there could have been a mass of energy there that came from nothing (not that I'm advocating that). </font> So there had to be something or someone outside of the universe to create it.
3. Only God could create the mass/energy of the universe. (Admittedly a statement of faith. I wasn't there and it can't be repeated to be scientifically verified.)
4. If God did create the universe then he has unimaginable power. <font color="red"> This I agree with. Think about a being that could create the universe. What would it be like? Would it really have anything in common with mankind? Such a being would be much more like a computer than us. Why would he have created mankind? He'd of created computers! </font>
5. There are approximately 10 to the 200th power (how do you do exponents on here?) stars in the universe, so the earth is a very tiny speck in that vastness and man is even tinier.
6. People are fallible and corrupted.
7. This powerful God has enough power to work through fallible and corrupted people to create an infallible book that is His Word to mankind. With God's power I just don't think it's that hard for Him to do. <font color="red"> Again, why? </font>

OK, Lyle and the Lions, I'm sure you'll rip this apart.

I really don't know why I'm back on here again. I guess it's to encourage the readers that haven't made up their minds yet.

I really don't have the time for this, so I'll get back as I can.

BTW, the first question to answer is "Who is Jesus?" If He really is God then most of the other questions fall into place.

Respectfully and cordially,
Lowe

Two things Senior,

The first is that sarcasm and ridicule are the tools of someone who can't address your points. YAWN!

Second, I thought the religious were supposed to be polite and accepting? Are you sure God approves of your behavior? I suggest reading Lowe's posts. He is respectful and polite. IMO he is the real face of the religious and it's saving grace. He's what religion is sold as and all to often falls short of. I respect Lowe and his intelligence even though I disagree with him. He's the kind of guy that you are honored to have as a friend.

Yes, I would say I'm neutral. I'm all for good morals and treating each other with kindness, human dignity, and respect. I'm not so keen on organized religion and those who would use it as a means of gaining wealth or promoting a political agenda.



Best and most pertinent point made here!



Just to set the record straight.... This threads title is:

Disc Golfers for Jesus.....

The statement quoted above IMO is in accordance with what a disc golfer for Jesus would want. There are many in the world who have abused people in the name of organized religion. I do not support that.

As a christian disc golfer, I support my fellow players and do not try to force anything on them about my beliefs. I do try to conduct myself with a caring nature, and I would do everything in my power to help my friends who are in need. No matter what their beliefs are. I accept each and everyone of you for who you are and would never condemn you for having different beliefs.

At the same time, my hope is that when we get to know each other, that you would see in me an inner light that attracts you to the love of God, Jesus. I do not try to force this in any way. I simply offer my unconditional friendship to the people I have come to know and care for over many years of playing this sport.

Occasionlly this leads to discussions about our personal beliefs. But even then I do not proffess to be the bearer of absolute truth, I am simply sharing what is in my heart......Take it or leave it....

Two things Senior,

The first is that sarcasm and ridicule are the tools of someone who can't address your points. YAWN!

Second, I thought the religious were supposed to be polite and accepting? Are you sure God approves of your behavior? I suggest reading Lowe's posts. He is respectful and polite. IMO he is the real face of the religious and it's saving grace. He's what religion is sold as and all to often falls short of. I respect Lowe and his intelligence even though I disagree with him. He's the kind of guy that you are honored to have as a friend.



Lyle, I'm not sure where I went wrong, but my intent was to have some light hearted fun.. I really do appreciate what you have offer, and I am truly amazed at some the information you access and post and at the small amount of time it takes you. So, in all honesty I was trying to conect and compliment, not be sarcastic... So please, try to understand me..... :D

Anyone who is open minded may find some good answers at Probe Ministries (http://www.probe.org/)

I suggest reading Lowe's posts. He is respectful and polite. IMO he is the real face of the religious and it's saving grace. He's what religion is sold as and all to often falls short of. I respect Lowe and his intelligence even though I disagree with him. He's the kind of guy that you are honored to have as a friend.



Lyle, thank you very much. That was very gracious of you! You made my day to know that at least I've come across as I've hoped. I respect you, too, and I'd sure enjoy throwing a disc with you.

[Thread drift on]
Sorry to bring in a new topic like...disc golf.

Mike A-
What courses have you designed? I know of Walnut Creek (team effort) and New Quarter. Any others?
Even if it's only those 2 you've contributed some of the best in VA!

Lowe
[/Thread drift off]

I see a flaw in your logic. I'll lay out my thinking:
1. Before the Big Bang there was no matter or energy in the Universe. There was nothing. <font color="red"> This is a religious view of the big bang. The theory doesn't tell us what was there before. Instead it is based on the concrete observation that the universe is expanding from a single point. That observation is so easy to make that no one disputes it. Science, unlike religion, doesn't try and explain everything, instead it looks for answers. That everything came from one point is observationally correct, what was there before is one of the questions that scientists continue to pursue. Does it bother you Lowe that not everything has an answer yet?

It is very easy to say that God made matter and all energy. But then you run into the axiom that God is omnipotent. If so, why is the world we live in such a mess? Omnipotence means the ability to make it better, well perfect actually. </font>
2. Something cannot come from nothing. <font color="red"> This is classic! So... what did God come from if something can't come from nothing? It is, pardon me, humorous that you can accept that God was always there or that he came from nothing, but not that there could have been a mass of energy there that came from nothing (not that I'm advocating that). </font> So there had to be something or someone outside of the universe to create it.
3. Only God could create the mass/energy of the universe. (Admittedly a statement of faith. I wasn't there and it can't be repeated to be scientifically verified.)
4. If God did create the universe then he has unimaginable power. <font color="red"> This I agree with. Think about a being that could create the universe. What would it be like? Would it really have anything in common with mankind? Such a being would be much more like a computer than us. Why would he have created mankind? He'd of created computers! </font>






Lyle et al,

I just don't have time to debate and go into this point by point, but please don't take my silence as agreement or capitulation. Sorry I can't say more now.

Lowe

Two things Senior,

The first is that sarcasm and ridicule are the tools of someone who can't address your points. YAWN!

Second, I thought the religious were supposed to be polite and accepting? Are you sure God approves of your behavior? I suggest reading Lowe's posts. He is respectful and polite. IMO he is the real face of the religious and it's saving grace. He's what religion is sold as and all to often falls short of. I respect Lowe and his intelligence even though I disagree with him. He's the kind of guy that you are honored to have as a friend.



Lyle, I'm not sure where I went wrong, but my intent was to have some light hearted fun.. I really do appreciate what you have offer, and I am truly amazed at some the information you access and post and at the small amount of time it takes you. So, in all honesty I was trying to conect and compliment, not be sarcastic... So please, try to understand me..... :D



Good Enough.

"Does it bother you Lowe that not everything has an answer yet?"

Doesn't bother me a bit. God has all the answers and I'll just leave it to him. There are tons of mysteries in life and things we'll never understand. Not to mention that we probably know such a small percentage of the scientific facts that there are.

BTW - Just to be clear, Senior makes a good point, if you can't laugh at yourself, or enjoy others laughing at you, you've probably missed the point, and God, if he exists, would expect better.

I believe what science shows me, and apply the scientific method to everything in my life.



Lyle,
Notice that you've just made a statement of faith. Is this belief of yours 100% verifiable? Don't you have to rely on science to prove it? Can one really say, "I believe in science because science says that only science is reliable?" (That sounds vaguely familiar.)

How does the scientific method help you make moral decisions?
How does the scientific method teach you about love?

Cordially,
Lowe

I won't get drawn back into this...I won't get drawn back into this...won't get drawn back into this...won't get drawn back in...won't get drawn back...won't get drawn...I won't...I won't...I won't...

Awww nuts!

It is very easy to say that God made matter and all energy. But then you run into the axiom that God is omnipotent. If so, why is the world we live in such a mess? Omnipotence means the ability to make it better, well perfect actually.



(It's fun to talk when no one else is around!)

Why would God be logically obligated to make the world perfect? That's a very man centered view.

Add to it that people chose to rebel and become enemies of God. God is merely allowing people to reap the consequences of their choices, and that means a messed up world.

God has given people the freedom to choose His ways or not, to choose good or evil. He is still omnipotent. I'm giving my teenage kids more and more freedom and it's so hard to watch them get hurt by their choices. I have the power to regulate their lives more but I let them make their own choices. Freedom of choice does not negate God's omnipotence.

Lyle et al, I know that you've broken even your own moral standards b/c everyone has. You've done wrong. It would be logically possible for an omnipotent God to have set up the world so that he could override any wrong doing, but would you want God to control your mind and will like that?

Respectfully,
Lowe

P.S.- I believe that speeding is a sin. It's breaking the law. Call me looney if you want. :D

Most of the Earth is patriarchal...and yet the only thing a man can give birth to is a turd.

God, in all her infinite wisdom......is having quite a chuckle at our ineptness...because she has the greatest sense of humor of all.


Would Ken Climo seek DG advice from a Rec/Enthusiast player? So why would newlyweds' seek marital advice from their Priest?


I'm chucklin'! :D

It is very easy to say that God made matter and all energy. But then you run into the axiom that God is omnipotent. If so, why is the world we live in such a mess? Omnipotence means the ability to make it better, well perfect actually.



(It's fun to talk when no one else is around!)

Why would God be logically obligated to make the world perfect? That's a very man centered view.

Add to it that people chose to rebel and become enemies of God. God is merely allowing people to reap the consequences of their choices, and that means a messed up world.

God has given people the freedom to choose His ways or not, to choose good or evil. He is still omnipotent. I'm giving my teenage kids more and more freedom and it's so hard to watch them get hurt by their choices. I have the power to regulate their lives more but I let them make their own choices. Freedom of choice does not negate God's omnipotence.

Lyle et al, I know that you've broken even your own moral standards b/c everyone has. You've done wrong. It would be logically possible for an omnipotent God to have set up the world so that he could override any wrong doing, but would you want God to control your mind and will like that?

Respectfully,
Lowe

P.S.- I believe that speeding is a sin. It's breaking the law. Call me looney if you want. :D



How does the bolded part apply to the thousands (millions?) of infant deaths that occur each and every year?

Edit: The world average is 50 infant deaths for every 1,000 births.

The wages (or payment) of sin, is death. Because of 1 man, (Adam) sin has reigned. We reap what we sow. Those infants that die, die because we are in a sin-cursed world. Things are going to get much worse before they get better.

abcd-
I agree with Camerelli's answer #748154 - 10/04/07 11:35 AM. The Fall of Man is also the cause of natural disasters, disease, and death.

So because Eve ate an apple from a "forbidden tree", God purposefully kills select babies every hour?

So because Eve ate an apple from a "forbidden tree", God purposefully kills select babies every hour?



No, God does not kill them. They experience death because the whole world is in a fallen state.

(original post deleted because of poor timing)

[abcd-

I only sent the origianl post as a reply to you b/c you were the last person on the list b4 me. I just didn't want to reply to myself, and it had nothing to do w/ your point. It was just sth that popped into my head. No disrespect intended.

Lowe]

Glad to see this is amusing to you.

So because Eve ate an apple from a "forbidden tree", God purposefully kills select babies every hour?



No, God does not kill them. They experience death because the whole world is in a fallen state.



He/She/It could save them from death but choses not too, correct? How is that not murder?

Why doesn't god smite someone who deserves it? Like maybe a priest who molests hundreds of children.

Why doesn't god smite someone who deserves it? Like maybe a priest who molests hundreds of children.



For the "really bad" cases like that, I don't know. No one has a good answer for why the evil prosper, or even allowed to get away with it. Even the writers of the Bible struggle with it.

But one question is "what is bad enough to smite?" Have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever lusted after a woman? If so, you've committed adultery b/c to God the thoughts of the heart are the same as the action. How "bad" are those things? Are they worthy of being "smitten" by God?

So because Eve ate an apple from a "forbidden tree", God purposefully kills select babies every hour?



No, God does not kill them. They experience death because the whole world is in a fallen state.



He/She/It could save them from death but choses not too, correct? How is that not murder?



God is not the causal agent of death. He has chosen to restrain His power and to allow people to experience bad things.

If people have rebelled against God then why should be obligated to do anything for them? A great many people have said, in effect, "God, leave me alone. I don't need you, I don't want you, I want to run my own life." God has given these people exactly what they've asked for.

Why doesn't god smite someone who deserves it? Like maybe a priest who molests hundreds of children.



Because whether it be for good or bad, God is NO respecter of persons.

We all deserve hell, but in my mind, child molestors/pedaphiles are the worst of the worst- Just my opinion.

Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all
~ Grahm Nash - cathedral

Why doesn't god smite someone who deserves it? Like maybe a priest who molests hundreds of children.



Wow, surprised to see you got different answers and even an "I don't know"! Usually the standard schpeal is: "Because god gives man free will" crap....

But yeah, hard to believe Cardinal Mahoney is loved by god, and all of his pedophiles he CAUSED to be shipped from location to location to continue their evil....

The "I don't know" really shocked me since most bible thumpers have ALL the answers... or would like us to believe they do.

On that note, I have a question. Most religions believe THERIS is THE ONLY WAY to get to Heaven. What do you humble folks have to say about that - Is YOUR religion the ONLY ONE that matters? The ONLY way to get to Heaven?

Just curious...

If one believes that Jesus is God, then you must accept Jesus's claim that "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."

But yeah, hard to believe Cardinal Mahoney is loved by god, and all of his pedophiles he CAUSED to be shipped from location to location to continue their evil....



God hates evil and is disgusted by it being perpetrated. I suspect that there is greater punishment in hell for religious people who abused their role in the church and used it as a cover to do evil. I can't speak definitively of Cardinal Mahoney since only God knows the true state of a man's soul. I do know that a person who allows evil is inconsistent with being a follower of Jesus.

How about a humorous interlude from all this heavy stuff... C'mon. we all need a laugh...

"Maybe in order to understand mankind we have to look at that word itself. MANKIND. Basically, it's made up of two separate words �mank� and �ind.� What do these words mean? It's a mystery and that's why so is mankind."

(From "Deep Thoughts" by Jack Handey)

most bible thumpers have ALL the answers... or would like us to believe they do.



Michelle,

On behalf of all Bible thumpers I offer an apology for all of the smug attitudes you've experienced. (That could be read as sarcasm, but I mean it sincerely.) We don't have all the answers. I know I've got lots of unanswered questions. All I cling to, though, is the Jesus is the Truth. So Truth is actually a person not an intellectual concept. He has all the answers, so I just entrust all my questions, and doubts, to Him.

With sincerity,
Lowe

I'm not so keen on organized religion and those who would use it as a means of gaining wealth or promoting a political agenda.



Instructions to Christians- "Don't be selfish...Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourself."

Christians are to do this because Jesus was our example. "Though He was God, he did not demand and cling to His rights as God. He made Himself nothing; He took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. And in human form He obediently humbled Himself even further by dying a criminals death on the cross." (Phillipians 2:3, 5-8)

This is the love and humility that drew me to Jesus 31 years ago and continues to do so today.

I guess 4 posts in a row is enough for now while no one else is around. :cool::oOoops, 5 now.

(Where's Lyle?)

I'm not so keen on organized religion and those who would use it as a means of gaining wealth or promoting a political agenda.



Instructions to Christians- "Don't be selfish...Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourself."

Christians are to do this because Jesus was our example. "Though He was God, he did not demand and cling to His rights as God. He made Himself nothing; He took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. And in human form He obediently humbled Himself even further by dying a criminals death on the cross." (Phillipians 2:3, 5-8)

This is the love and humility that drew me to Jesus 31 years ago and continues to do so today.



Jesus had so many good things to say and thoughts to consider. His teachings of love, peace, compassion, and respect for others should be heeded by all people, not just Christians.

I think organized religion and its antics are what turn so many people off. People such as Jim Jones, Warren Jeffs, Joseph Smith, Pat Robertson, The Pope, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggert, Al Sharpton, Ernest Angley, etc., have done so much to destroy the credibility of organized religion that it just can't be taken seriously anymore. Better to just read and understand the moral guidance that Jesus preached and forget the hocus pocus abracadabra "send me your money" mumbo jumbo.

I think organized religion and its antics are what turn so many people off. People such as Warren Jeffs, Joseph Smith, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggert, Al Sharpton, Ernest Angley, etc., have done so much to destroy the credibility of organized religion that it just can't be taken seriously anymore. Better to just read and understand the moral guidance that Jesus preached and forget the hocus pocus abracadabra "send me your money" mumbo jumbo.



Sad to say, you're right. And lets not forget one of the most egregious members of that group...Benny Hinn-- the master deceiver.

A few on that list are Christians lapsed into sin, but looking at the fruit of their lives I find it hard to imagine that the others could be Christians-- Benny Hinn most of all. I cringe at what they've done in the name of Jesus.

If there really is a spiritual enemy (Satan), wouldn't it be like him to send in his agents and do evil in the name of Christ? He is a deceiver. What better way would there be to turn people off to Jesus than to have people who claim to be Jesus' followers do evil things?

Jesus had so many good things to say and thoughts to consider. His teachings of love, peace, compassion, and respect for others should be heeded by all people, not just Christians.



Mike,

I agree with you, but Jesus also said, "I am God". If he made that claim, and it's not true then he's either a Liar or a Lunatic. If He was a Liar then he's deceived hundreds of millions (prob billions) of people over 2000 yrs. If he was a lunatic then we shouldn't listen to anything he said. (But he had some profound sayings and actions. Nowhere else does he speak or act like a madman.)

If Jesus is not a liar or a lunatic then He is Lord.

Lowe

None of these clowns turned me off to Jesus. But they did help turn me off to organized religion.

Lowe, I'm not sure where you're coming from; I said nothing about Jesus being a liar or deceiver. Nonetheless, I'm going to give Jesus the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he lied or deceived. However, there have been many who have done so in his name.

And with that, I think I'm done with this. Everyone seems set in their views on the topic and it is pointless to try and convince one side or the other that they are right or wrong.

Lowe, I'm not sure where you're coming from; I said nothing about Jesus being a liar or deceiver.



Mike.

I wonder if you read my post too quickly. I never said that you said that. I was the one who said that Jesus might be a liar. If Jesus said "I am God" and he isn't then he's a liar or a lunatic.

Lowe

And with that, I think I'm done with this. Everyone seems set in their views on the topic and it is pointless to try and convince one side or the other that they are right or wrong.



Amen to that! (Hope you don't mind the Bible thumper language.) I need to follow you out the door.

[Thread drift on]
Sorry to bring in a new topic like...disc golf.

Mike A-
What courses have you designed? I know of Walnut Creek (team effort) and New Quarter. Any others?
Even if it's only those 2 you've contributed some of the best in VA!

Lowe
[/Thread drift off]

Mike,

Are you still there? Mike? Oh Mike...HEY MIKE!

Before you go would you pls answer the question I asked earlier. I can't believe that it's actually abt DG!

Lowe

Lowe, thanks for your response.

Can you answer this question:

Most religions believe THERIS is THE ONLY WAY to get to Heaven. What do you humble folks have to say about that - Is YOUR religion the ONLY ONE that matters? The ONLY way to get to Heaven?

Michelle,

I'm wondering why you asked me that question. What point are you trying to make?

Lowe

I'm asking anyone who cares to respond. you're the only one who responded to my prior post so I addressed it to you.

I don't think typing it twice will help. It's a simple question. In your belief, is your religion the only way to get to Heaven?

Everyone thinks their way is the ONLY way. Do you feel this to be true? that your religion is the ONLY way to get there?

Frisbee girl,

As a christian, I have no problem being honest about this question. I have a feeling that you won't like my answer. According to the teachings of Jesus, the only way to heaven following his death and resurection is through believing in Him. Even a follower of Judaism cannot make it to heaven without accepting Christ. It is the Only way, and as a christian I belive this to be true. If we didn't believe what jesus teaches, then why would we waste our time being a christian. I understand that many people wonder why it isn't fair..... Or how God could deny someone who was born in the jungle with no knowledge etc...

Well, that just the way it is. God only gave His laws to the jews in the beginning. Back then, non of the rest of the world outside of judaism had a way to heaven. Not very fair is it. Likewise, after God sent his son to die for our sins, and opened up the kingdom of heaven to whoever would acccept that savior, we still have follow jesus and his word to go to heaven. It's just the way it is.

Michelle,

I don't think you caught my meaning. My main point was to ask you why. You seem to have and agenda so I wonder what point are you trying to make?

Lowe

Senior,

I'm not sure that you meant to use these words:


we still have to earn the right to go to heaven.


That can easily be misunderstood.

Senior,

I'm not sure that you meant to use these words:


we still have to earn the right to go to heaven.


That can easily be misunderstood.



In reviewing my post I agree. That is not correct. I meant you still have to follow Jesus and live according to his word in order to be saved and go to heaven.

I meant you still have to follow Jesus and live according to his word in order to be saved and go to heaven.




Senior,

I think you should go back an edit the original post, too, b/c if it's quoted the error will be perpetuated and misunderstandings will arise.

Lowe

I did.... BTW, do you agree with my basic answer to the question?

Christ died, was buried and rose again the 3rd day (as promised) I believe that trusting in this is the only way to get to heaven. Believing that he paid our sin debt that day on the Cross.

Here is a little study for the believers on here:

Following Jesus is not as simple as it sounds, or like most churches say to follow him. How do you follow Jesus...his teachings in Matt-John, the "4 Gospels"? Or....his teachings THROUGH the Apostle Paul, and the revelation of the MYSTERY. Paul tells us to follow Christ as HE followed Christ, not after the way the 12 followed him. (1Cor 11:1)
Paul says in 2Cor 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth (from now on) know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, (Matt-John) yet now henceforth know we him no more" Look at Gal 1:11-12. Paul says that the gospelwhich was preached of him(Paul) is NOT after man. He goes on in verse 12 to say that neither he recieved it of man, neither was taught it by man, but by Revelation of Jesus Christ.
We are to follow Jesus the way Paul says to follow him. Paul knew the "risen" Christ, and got his message from the risen Christ. The 12 got their message from the earthly Jesus, who was here teaching and preaching the law. We are not under the law, but under grace. The Dispensation of the Grace of God. Paul says that we are saved by HIS gospel (1Cor 15:1-4), we are established by HIS gospel, according to the revelation of the Mystery (Rom 16:25), and he says that we are JUDGED by HIS gospel (Rom 2:16) He also goes on to say that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead according to his gospel (2Tim 2:7-8)
Paul makes a big deal about "HIS" gospel. It is very different then the 4 gospels of Matt, Mark, Luke and John. Several times throughout his epistles he says "MY GOSPEL". He also says in 1Tim 1:16, that in "ME FIRST" (who got it before Paul if he says me first, no one), he goes on to say that HE is a "pattern" to or for them which should hereafter (from now on) believe on Christ for everlasting life. Paul says in 1Cor 3:10 that he is the WISE Masterbuilder, and that HE has laid the foundation, but take heed how you build there upon. In the next verse he tells who or what that foundation is...Jesus Christ. There are several other verses where Paul tells us that we are to follow his teachings of Christ. In 1Cor 4:16, he says "I beseech you (or beg you), be ye followers of ME.

Most of the churches today are teaching to live your life according to the 4 Gospels. That is putting people under the law. Although there are good teachings (the law is good, man is the problem) in those gospels, it is the Law. Christ was teaching the law to "his choosen people" You cannot fully understand the Grace we have and appreciate it until you get to Paul's epistles. Paul says that if you are under the law, you are under the CURSE of the law (Galatians 3:10) In Gal 1:8-9, he says "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Sounds pretty serious to me. Paul definately clarifies what is to be taught.

This is a big bite to chew, I am open to discuss all of the above post. I expect some disagreement, but you are not disagreeing with me, I just showed you the verses.

Because the mormans think their way is the only way; catholics think the same; christians think the same; witnesses think the same, etc. Everyone thinks their way is the only way.

Nevermind. It's not that important to me.

Frisbee girl,

As a christian, I have no problem being honest about this question. I have a feeling that you won't like my answer. According to the teachings of Jesus, the only way to heaven following his death and resurection is through believing in Him. Even a follower of Judaism cannot make it to heaven without accepting Christ. It is the Only way, and as a christian I belive this to be true. If we didn't believe what jesus teaches, then why would we waste our time being a christian. I understand that many people wonder why it isn't fair..... Or how God could deny someone who was born in the jungle with no knowledge etc...

Well, that just the way it is. God only gave His laws to the jews in the beginning. Back then, non of the rest of the world outside of judaism had a way to heaven. Not very fair is it. Likewise, after God sent his son to die for our sins, and opened up the kingdom of heaven to whoever would acccept that savior, we still have follow jesus and his word to go to heaven. It's just the way it is.



So in short, the answer is Yes, christian way is the only way. I completely expected that answer. Thanks.

I did.... BTW, do you agree with my basic answer to the question?



Yes. I might have said "trust Jesus as your Savior" just to be precise that there are no works involved, though. But I think you meant that.

Frisbee girl,

You have to take the issue up with Jesus. He's the one who said "I and the Father are One" meaning "I am God." He also said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me." This is not man's doctrine, but Jesus's words.

Just because others may claim that they are the only true way doesn't invalidate Jesus' claim. You have to ask, "was Jesus right in what he claimed, or not?"

Our pluralistic world may not like that, but the only question is "Is this true?"

Lowe

LOL.. I was asking you for your opinion, not jesus... whom I do not believe in by the way. That'd be like asking Santa Clause... to me.

Thanks. Have a great weekend!

Because the mormans think their way is the only way; catholics think the same; christians think the same; witnesses think the same, etc. Everyone thinks their way is the only way.

Nevermind. It's not that important to me.



Don't say that. It is important. By just ignoring an obsolete, grossly inaccurate belief structure, you allow it to go unchecked. Giving up and just ignorning religious ideology just allows it to perpetuate. It is why an out spoken atheist can't be elected to office, or run a school district.

It is important that you challenge this nonsense.

so, please correct me if i'm wrong. as i read it, jesus is more concerned with my label than my actions. as long as i have a jesus bumber sticker, i'm homefree for heaven. if i'm the most pious, humble, christ-like hindu in the world, it doesn't matter i'm going to hell. is jesus really this shallow?

Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
~ Nietzsche

All,

As a Christian, the grace of getting to heaven is not based upon being the most pious, most sincere, most compliant. In fact according to the Bible (NIV), many who fit into this category did not reach heaven (Pharisees as an example). It is based on understanding that we all sin, and that Jesus died to forgive all of our sins.

Now, I can see how the idea of faith bothers everyone. I am not one to prostlytize on the course, I do set limits as to what I accept. I do not like F-bombs, and if there is abuse of the course, I will call it. But I do not mention my faith in bringing it up with other players.

If they bring up why I do not care for those things, I bring up respect. However, I will also mention my faith, and let it go at that.

I also respect that others have different opinions/beliefs, and respect others wish to not discuss.

Thank you,

Steve

[Thread drift on]
Sorry to bring in a new topic like...disc golf.

Mike A-
What courses have you designed? I know of Walnut Creek (team effort) and New Quarter. Any others?
Even if it's only those 2 you've contributed some of the best in VA!

Lowe
[/Thread drift off]

Mike,

Are you still there? Mike? Oh Mike...HEY MIKE!

Before you go would you pls answer the question I asked earlier. I can't believe that it's actually abt DG!

Lowe



I'm never here on the weekends unless I'm sick, so I wasn't ignoring!

In addition to my involvement with the two courses mentioned above, I designed a very private disc golf course on 22 acres between Richmond and Charlottesville. In order to keep it very private, that's as much as I'm giving out on location. It is 18 holes and is more difficult than New Quarter.

For your enjoyment:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch2.html

Good to know that the religious are powerfully into bringing on Armageddon.

BTW - watch all the pieces here, especially the last one on the Amish.

The first piece shows a modern protestant church and it's messages. Notice how it's leader shows two faces, one of support Israel to the larger public, and one of how supporting Israel will lead to Armageddon to his followers. Basically, to achieve his larger goal, he's willing to lie. The second part is an evaluation of this modern movement and what is wrong with it. The final piece, IMO, shows what religion should be. Accepting, open where it can be, generous at all times.

As I said, enjoy it.

Because the mormans think their way is the only way; catholics think the same; christians think the same; witnesses think the same, etc. Everyone thinks their way is the only way.

Nevermind. It's not that important to me.



Don't say that. It is important. By just ignoring an obsolete, grossly inaccurate belief structure, you allow it to go unchecked. Giving up and just ignorning religious ideology just allows it to perpetuate. It is why an out spoken atheist can't be elected to office, or run a school district.

It is important that you challenge this nonsense.



I already know the answer.... every religion thinks their belief is the ONLY way. Standard, stock answer....

Lyle,
I read the transcript and listened to the message. I for one, totally disagree with Mr Hagee in most points.-except for Israel being God's choosen people- They were in the Old Testament, not now like he claims. Now there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile.

"BILL MOYERS: Christian Zionists believe Jews are God's chosen people...that God promised the land of Israel to their patriarchs and their descendants." - Israel WAS God's choosen people. See Gen 12:1-3. Rom 1:16 says: "to the Jew First" Also see Rom 9:4. He has set them aside for now, and NOW, there is no difference in God's eyes betweeen Jew/Greek/Gentile. See Rom 10:12-13. Also, Rom 11:11 tells us about Israels fall, and that how salvation has come to us Gentiles to provoke them to jealousy. Look also at Rom 11:25, 1Cor 12:13-14. God is NO longer a respecter of persons.

"They say that the Bible requires Christians to give unconditional support to the Jewish people, to be a "good friend" to Christianity's "big brother." -- The bible says this in the Old Testament. We Gentiles had to bless Israel to get in on their blessings from God.-called a proselyte, taking up all of the Jewish customs, literally becoming a Jew. This person is twisting the scriptures saying this, trying to put people undet the OT Law. Again, today in this present time, there is NO respecter of persons with God.

"JOHN HAGEE: The biblical mandates for supporting Israel began with Genesis 12:3. I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you. Secondly, David said in Psalms 122:6, "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. They shall prosper that love you." - Again, this is Old Testament, God is no respecter of persons. We do not have to bless Israel, we are now saved by believing something, NOT doing something. Works goes with the OT program.

"Because of the fact that in history, if Jerusalem is at war, the world is at war. If there's peace in Jerusalem there's peace in the world. "-- There will not be peace on Earth until after the tribulation. What does God want us to pray for? Spiritual things, not physical. Eph 6:18-20, Col 4:2-4, 1Thess 5:17, Phil 1:9-11 and Col 1:9-12.

"BILL MOYERS: According to John Hagee, devastating consequences await those who violate God's word. God, he says, may already have sent Hurricane Katrina to punish the U.S. for its role in helping Israel remove Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip"---- Religious crap. God does not punish people, we reap what we sow. I think I've heard it all concerning the hurricane from the religious crowd. Talking about how bad that area is and God sent the hurricane to destroy all the bars and bad things there. Well, there were more churches destroyed there then bars??? What can they say about that.

Disc Golfers for Jesus... yes... yes i am! :)

Stack- welcome to the fray!

I am also...


http://discgolfers4christ.com/

Is that really a 40 Mold, or is it a 40C or possibly a 40C* ?

Is that really a 40 Mold, or is it a 40C or possibly a 40C* ?



40F and 40G*

40 F...
Still have one in the Bag..Ya never know..

Spin iTT

Pulled up next to a pickup today. The gentleman had a cross hanging from his mirror. He was sucking on a Marlborough and had a bumper sticker that read:

"Jesus loves you, but I'm his favorite!" And I thought, "yes, that's the problem!"

For those that don't believe in Jesus, just read the book and forget those TV bible banging money grubbers. People have been latching on to good things for money and power for millenia, why should they be any different because they choose to latch on to Jesus? People will do bad in the name of good forever more. It is human nature.

Evil almost always starts with a kernal of good turned in the wrong direction. Hitler starting his politcal career preaching reform in a country that was in need. Stalin started with the idea that communities working together and sharing everything could make for an ideal life for all.

Ignore the crazy so-called Christians that call for doom and gloom. Just read the book.

Excellent point. The problem is that those guys are the ones driving the movement. Soooooo, now we come to the crux of it. when are you rational Christians going to step up, kick the nut jobs out, and go back to being the Christians I remember from my youth?

what book?

Excellent point. The problem is that those guys are the ones driving the movement. Soooooo, now we come to the crux of it. when are you rational Christians going to step up, kick the nut jobs out, and go back to being the Christians I remember from my youth?



Most of us don't associate with those folks anyways. I've got family in the Mormon church, I still love them , but they are wrong, dead wrong. People can choose to do as they like, including claiming to heal "in Jesus name" and all that junk. It's up to each individual to search the scriptures to see whether those things are true or not.

Satan is not in the bars, whorehouses, etc, most likely those people are lost anyways. He is where the word of God is being preached, behind the pulpit, deceiving the people. The word of God is pure, but he is confusing the masses by preaching to them what was for Israel back when, in times past (the Law)-Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. 99% of the churches today teach and preach these books for your Christian life/walk, when those books actually teach the Law. Paul says that we are no longer under the Law, but under Grace. Galatians says if you are under the Law, you are under the CURSE of the Law. (Gal 3:10) Paul also says in Galatians 1:8 " But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach ANY other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed". Sounds pretty serious to me. Look at Gal 2:2-9. It's obvious that Paul had a different gospel and was to go to different people then Peter, James and John.
IMO, most of the churches out there today are businesses. They want your money. Today under Grace, we are to be "cheerful givers" it says. Thats not the same as in Malachi 3:8, when it says " will a man rob God?" First of all, go to the first verse of chapter one of that book (Malachi) What does it say, who is that book to? Mal 1:1 "The burden of the word of the Lord TO ISRAEL by Malachi". It's to Israel, not us gentiles. But mainstream churches preach this to their members so they can pay for that new 2 million dollar building program that they are in. Then they tell the people "look what God has blessed us with". If you went down to the bank, you'd see the deacon's names and people in the churchs' names on the paperwork, not God's. Its all religious stuff, to make peoples flesh feel good, and for people to feel like they "doing something for God". It pleases their flesh and they feel good when they leave there Sunday morning. Yet, when you sit down with them, and the same Bible they pack around all week, and claim is "the word of God" and show them discrepencies in their "religion" (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Mormon and many more) They don't care enough to read the word and believe it. They would rather remain ignorant of the truth, then to admit they have been wrong all this time. They will tell you it is a parable or "it doesn't really mean that, it means..." really? Was God constipated when he had that written, and couldn't figure out what to say? Or "does it mean what it says, and says what it means" like they claim for other verses. Religion is a return to bondage. We are free IN Christ if you are saved. You don't EVER have to attend church, ask for forgiveness, or DO anything. Christ did it all on the Cross, it is Finished. The hardest thing for us, is to believe that. We don't have to do anything , but believe. People want to add confession, works, baptism all those works take away from the Cross.1 Cor 15:1-4 says how to be saved today. ;)

Pulled up next to a pickup today. The gentleman had a cross hanging from his mirror. He was sucking on a Marlborough and had a bumper sticker that read:

"Jesus loves you, but I'm his favorite!" And I thought, "yes, that's the problem!"



can't help but laughing @ what you said you saw and where you're from. You forgot to mention the gun rack in the back window and fake cow testicles hanging from the trailer hitch :D

I still love them , but they are wrong, dead wrong.



This is the problem with organized religion. It's the 'my way or the highway' syndrome. What makes you so sure you are right? A book written my men? Why is the Bible any more relevant than the Qur'an or the Torah? Are they wrong, dead wrong too? After reading the first chapter of the Book of Mormon, I can see both sides: Yes it's outlandish to think a guy stuck his head in a hat full of stones and read the Word of God, and that Salt Lake City is the Promised Land, but it's no more unbelievable than a guy herding two of every animal on earth for a 40 day boat ride.

If the stories are read as guidelines, a sort of direction to live by, then that's one thing, but taking a literal interpretation of stories a couple thousand years old just doesn't work. I like to keep an open mind, but blind faith in the words of men seems a little sheepish to me.

and fake cow testicles hanging from the trailer hitch :D



Cow testicles? Things must really be mixed up there....

Lyle,

I thought about this one for a while before I answered and I think that I am doing what I should; denouncing the wrong and stressing what the individual should be doing and that is reading the bible and making up their own mind about Jesus.

I will go one step further, if anyone asks for your money and promises you mircles, these are just the old time snake oil salesmen ( or women) wrapping themselves in fake Christianity to seperate the gulable from their savings.


Excellent point. The problem is that those guys are the ones driving the movement. Soooooo, now we come to the crux of it. when are you rational Christians going to step up, kick the nut jobs out, and go back to being the Christians I remember from my youth?

but it's no more unbelievable than a guy herding two of every animal on earth for a 40 day boat ride... I like to keep an open mind, but blind faith in the words of men seems a little sheepish to me.



I always feel a little sheepish when I tell people that I believe the story of Noah's Ark... but I'm bullish on the Bible! I realize that statement will make me seem like a raven' lunatic to some, while others may lionize me.

If you don't believe the words on the page, what good is any of it??? You're right Lowe, people do think we are crazy for believing the Bible. But, the majority NEVER followed Christ. Just look at the first church, there were only 8 people on that boat :D

Well and good, but you didn't answer my question:

Why is the Bible any more relevant than the Qur'an or the Torah? Are they wrong, dead wrong too?

My opinion is yes, they are wrong, dead wrong. I know, I know, who am I to say this and what authority do I have? My Bible tells me those are false religions and decietful. The Bible (KJV) proves itself through and through. (that's if you believe the words on the page)


All of the "other Major" religions serve a DEAD god. My God is alive. If their god cannot ressurect himself, what hope do they have of eternal life? :confused:

Cam, you need to stop and read the question. The Torah hardly talks about serving a dead God. God in the Torah is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God who established his covenant with the people of Israel. The God who fulfilled his promises with the root of Jesse. Pay attention.

and fake cow testicles hanging from the trailer hitch :D



Cow testicles? Things must really be mixed up there....



never seen these before then eh?
http://www.bulls-balls.com/img/dodgeballs.jpg

Lots of haughty postin' goin' on 'round here.

Picture didn't help any. I still have never heard of cow balls, bull balls yes.......




and fake cow testicles hanging from the trailer hitch :D



Cow testicles? Things must really be mixed up there....



never seen these before then eh?
http://www.bulls-balls.com/img/dodgeballs.jpg

I hope that everyone realizes that the main purpose of my post about Noah's Ark was merely to add some humor here. (OK, a very small amount.) IMO everyone posting here needs to lighten up and laugh a little.

Yes, I know that this topic has eternal consequences, but it's OK to laugh too. I'm sure that Jesus laughed A LOT!! (How could He not find so much of what we little humans do to be absurd?)

Lowe

The Torah is considered correct by Christians and is incorporated into the Bible as the first five books of the old testimate. The history of the Torah and the requirements for scribes in copying it were very strict. In terms of historical correctness, it is the most accurate copy of any historical book. I am not argueing if the events written about are historically accurate or not, only that the strict rules for scribes in copying it make it the closest representitive of any document that old. Most Christians believe the Torah is correct.

As for the Qu'ran, there are many deviations from the Bible, so if a Christian accepts the Bible as true, they have little choice but to reject the Qu'ran. There are also many questions among scholars about it's historical accuracy. As an example, the Qu'ran says that Jesus was not crucified, but instead Pontius Pilot alowed him to go free and another was crucified in his place. It then goes on to say that Jesus was a great profit/teacher for God. Historically, there is quite a bit of evidence that validates the crucifiction of Christ. Few historians argue otherwise. Most historians wil argue against the resurrection, but not the crucifiction. Some will even argue the theft of Jesus's body or that Jesus only swooned on the cross, but history tends to suggest the crucifiction took place.


Well and good, but you didn't answer my question:

Why is the Bible any more relevant than the Qur'an or the Torah? Are they wrong, dead wrong too?

I am far from the most serious person you'll ever meet. I do joke/kid around quite a bit. I also know that there are some things that are to be taken seriously though.

Where in the Bible do you find Christ laughing? I don't know that he would have laughed at the absurdness, rather then prayed for those and preached to them. I do know that the scripture says that "The though of foolishness is sin" Christ never sinned, so I wonder about that part of your post. I can't say one way or another, but again The thought of foolishness is sin. I've never read where he is jesting/laughing and kidding around with his followers or even non-believers.

If I put a smiley at the end of my post, does it make it a little nicer and light hearted? :D

Cam,

I am a Christian and I believe that Jesus laughed. You are right it is not recorded in the Bible, but I am not sure that the Bible ever speaks of Christ bathing or drinking wine, yet he turned water to wine as his first miracle. The old testimate records God as having laughed at things. Through the Trinity this implies that Jesus also laughed. Regardless, how can you not read about Jesus stating that someone needed to "remove the plank from your eye" and not see this as a rebuke with a bit of humor in it? Just friendly discussion, not meant as an attack.


I am far from the most serious person you'll ever meet. I do joke/kid around quite a bit. I also know that there are some things that are to be taken seriously though.

Where in the Bible do you find Christ laughing? I don't know that he would have laughed at the absurdness, rather then prayed for those and preached to them. I do know that the scripture says that "The though of foolishness is sin" Christ never sinned, so I wonder about that part of your post. I can't say one way or another, but again The thought of foolishness is sin. I've never read where he is jesting/laughing and kidding around with his followers or even non-believers.

If I put a smiley at the end of my post, does it make it a little nicer and light hearted? :D

I have to say that this thread has had me laughing out loud at work multiple times a week...

I can't really say whether or not he laughed, I've never seen a verse where it remotely implies that he did. I've never seen a verse where it says that God laughed, but then again, I can't remember every verse in the Bible either.
As far as the "removing the plank form your eye" is concerned, I don't look at that as humorous. I can understand that WE sinners may think it's humorous, because it is a bit different, but I don't see it as Christ meaning it as funny in any way. he seemed to be quite serious when saying that. I guess it is one of the things that we will never know until we are "caught up", kinda like the question, Who wrote the book of Hebrews? It never says, but the key factor is not who wrote the book, but who the book is written to??? The Hebrews, obviously. :D


No offence taken, I do enjoy discussing Bible with anyone, preferably a saved person who is open to discuss things. I had no intention to offend you Lowe by saying what I said, that is just my opinion...with a verse. :D

I had no intention to offend you Lowe by saying what I said, that is just my opinion.



Camerelli,

You didn't offend me at all, so don't worry about it. (You might notice that I edited that post.) Since so much of good communication is lost in a medium such as this MB, I just wanted to make sure that my meaning was clear. That post was totally constructed to fit around certain words, so any meaning conveyed was just secondary.

BTW, I'm convinced that Jesus laughed. He must've been one of the most joyful, fun loving people you'd ever meet. Hey, when you're totally without sin you could experience a level of freedom that we won't know until Heaven!

Lowe

P.S.- The NT is by no means exhaustive about every single incident. I once added up an estimate of the amount of time it would've taken for Jesus to do the things he did, and it wasn't a whole lot. The Bible is selective, so just b/c it doesn't say something doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened if it's consistent with what we do know.

one example of 'humor' would have been in the story of 'the good Samaritan'... backlog of the story... a jewish lawyer who 'knew everything' about God's law was trying to make a point in asking Jesus a question. He was trying to prove how smart he was and prove that the Samaritan (who were 'half breeds' and considered dirty and unholy) aren't as good as 'God's chosen people' such as he.

The lawyer asks "Master, how do I gain eternal life"... Jesus turns the question back on him and the Lawyer answers (properly) with "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."

Jesus exclaims that he is correct but then the Lawyer questions the definition of 'neighbor' (most likely in hopes that Jesus will once and for all say that it is just someone who is like you and wouldn't include the Samaritans in this case).

Jesus then tells the Parable of the Good Samaritan...
<font color="red"> A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. </font>
he then speaks of 2 separate people that walked "all the way to the other side of the road to go around this beaten man" and didnt help.

This is where the humor comes in (humor in context not necessarily humor in our times)... the road from Jerusalem to Jericho is so narrow that there really is no 'other side' and the people practically had to step over the fallen man to go around.
http://www.followtherabbi.com/ttwmk2/images/df_Jericho_Trail.jpg

There is a lot more to the story (obviously) in Luke 10:25... and this isn't a glaring example but its almost a sarcastic kind of humor.

I wont argue if you dont find this as an example (or maybe I will ;) ) Just trying to contribute to the question/challenge.

Perhaps the early scribes needed a lighter approach!

http://www.superherostuff.com/bush_sucks_tshirts/images/buddy_jesus.jpg

one example of 'humor' would have been in the story of 'the good Samaritan'... backlog of the story... a jewish lawyer who 'knew everything' about God's law was trying to make a point in asking Jesus a question. He was trying to prove how smart he was and prove that the Samaritan (who were 'half breeds' and considered dirty and unholy) aren't as good as 'God's chosen people' such as he.

The lawyer asks "Master, how do I gain eternal life"... Jesus turns the question back on him and the Lawyer answers (properly) with "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."

Jesus exclaims that he is correct but then the Lawyer questions the definition of 'neighbor' (most likely in hopes that Jesus will once and for all say that it is just someone who is like you and wouldn't include the Samaritans in this case).

Jesus then tells the Parable of the Good Samaritan...
<font color="red"> A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. </font>
he then speaks of 2 separate people that walked "all the way to the other side of the road to go around this beaten man" and didnt help.

This is where the humor comes in (humor in context not necessarily humor in our times)... the road from Jerusalem to Jericho is so narrow that there really is no 'other side' and the people practically had to step over the fallen man to go around.
http://www.followtherabbi.com/ttwmk2/images/df_Jericho_Trail.jpg

There is a lot more to the story (obviously) in Luke 10:25... and this isn't a glaring example but its almost a sarcastic kind of humor.

I wont argue if you dont find this as an example (or maybe I will ;) ) Just trying to contribute to the question/challenge.



Nice try, but I fail to see the humor in that story. A Valiant effort though ;)

well it was funny when my pastor was telling it (as jesus) and acting it out ;)

We do know that Jesus told others to be glad and dance for joy (Luke 6:23), certainly laughter is the pure expression of joy.

The Bible also never says that Jesus had a haircut or bathed himself but we can assume that He did. An argument from silence that Jesus didn't laugh holds no weight. I bet he laughed A LOT! He was the most winsome person ever.

Alacrity- great point!

Jesus said, "These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full." (John 15:11)

OK, lets add to the controversy...

I bet that Jesus also drank wine (the real fermented stuff-- see John 2). And I bet that he also danced, especially at weddings (also see John 2).

Now I have no biblical proof of either of these conjectures, so I won't waste time debating it. It's just a reasonable inference.

I don't believe I ever said that Christ NEVER laughed. I said that I think he would not have laughed "at the absurdness of us humans"
Yes, he did drink wine, but is that a sin? In Excess is what makes drinking wine/beer a sin.

The Bible also never says that Jesus had a haircut or bathed himself but we can assume that He did. An argument from silence that Jesus didn't laugh holds no weight. I bet he laughed A LOT! He was the most winsome person ever.



I understand your arguement, it is true that not everything Jesus did was documented. But knowing that Jesus was God in the flesh, and seeing his creation deny him day in and day out, and all of the false teachings, etc, makes me think there were very few things to smile about. I think he would be constantly in prayer for the people around him, concerned for their future.-Just my opinion.

Alacrity- great point!

Jesus said, "These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full." (John 15:11)


What was Christ's joy here? He is talking about keeping his commandments. Their Joy might be full. (I use KJV) I find little joy in the commandments as a sinner

For Jesus the joy of the commandments was not in the failure to keep them, but in the joy they give:

'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (NIV, Mark 12:28-31).


Both were full of love, and if the love required by these two commandments is kept, all of the 10 commandments are kept and exceeded. A law kept with love is much stronger and rewarding then one kept from obligation. Note he did not talk of the consequences of failing to keep them, but instead discussed what love is for a neighbor and what a neighbor is. Which ties us right back to the story of the Samaritan. :cool:

This is not to say that Jesus is not saddened by what the charlitans of yesterday and today are doing in His name, just that He expressed love constantly and told us to be joyful.

LETS GO ROCKIES LETS GO

LETS GO ROCKIES LETS GO

Here are some of the reasons why Jesus experienced deep abiding joy...
...He never did anything wrong, so he had a perfectly clean conscience.
...He loved people unconditionally
...He saw people enter His Kingdom with child like faith
...He spent time with young children
...He exulted in the glory of God as displayed in the beauty of His creation
...He did His Father's will perfectly
...He knew that He would defeat Satan and redeem those who believed in Him
...He knew that He came from Heaven and that He was going back there!

LETS GO ROCKIES LETS GO

whassup Kel? Wish I were joining you at the OO this weekend. have fun and good luck!

Now, back to the Flying Spaghetti Monster



Religious scholars mull Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/personal/11/16/flying.spaghettimonster.ap/index.html)

George Carlin on Jesus

I find it discouraging- and a bit depressing- when I notice the unequal treatment afforded by the media to UFO believers on the one hand, and on the other, to those who believe in an invisible supreme being who inhabits the sky. Especially as the latter belief applies to the whole Jesus-Messiah-Son-of-God fable.
You may have noticed that, in the media, UFO believers are usually referred to as buffs, a term used to diminish and marginalize them by relegating them to the ranks of hobbyists and mere enthusiasts. They are made to seem like kooks and quaint dingbats who have the nerve to believe that, in an observable universe of trillions upon trillions of stars, and most likely many hundreds of billions of potentially inhabitable planets, some of those planets may have produced life-forms capable of doing things that we can�t do.
On the other hand those who believe in an eternal, all-powerful being, a being who demands to be loved and adored unconditionally and who punishes and rewards according to his whims are thought to be worthy, upright, credible people. This, in spite of the large numbers of believers who are clearly close-minded fanatics.
To my way of thinking, there is every bit as much evidence for the existence of UFOs as there is for the existence of God. Probably far more. At least in the case of UFOs there have been countless taped and filmed-- and, by the way, unexplained-- sightings from all over the world, along with documented radar evidence seen by experienced military and civilian radar operators.
This does not even begin to include the widespread testimony of not only highly trained, experienced military and civilian pilots who are selected for their jobs, in part, for their above-average eyesight and mental stability, but also of equally well-trained, experienced law-enforcement officers. Such pilots and law-enforcement people are known to be serious, sober individuals who would have quite a bit to lose were they to be associated with anything resembling kooky, outlandish beliefs. Nonetheless, they have taken the risk of revealing their experiences because they are convinced they have seen something objectively real that they consider important.
All of those accounts are ignored by the media.
Granted, the world of UFO-belief has its share of kooks, nuts and fringe people, but have you ever listened to some of these religious true-believers? Have you ever heard of any extreme, bizarre behavior and outlandish claims associated with religious zealots? Could any of them be considered kooks, nuts or dingbats? A fair person would have to say yes.
But the marginal people in these two groups don�t matter in this argument. What matters is the prejudice and superstition built into the media coverage of the two sets of beliefs. One is treated reverently and accepted as received truth, the other is treated laughingly and dismissed out of hand.
As evidence of the above premise, I offer one version of a typical television news story heard each year on the final Friday of Lent:
Today is Good Friday, observed by Christians worldwide as a day that commemorates the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whose death redeemed the sins of mankind.
Here is the way it should be written:
Today is Good Friday, observed worldwide by Jesus buffs as the day on which the popular, bearded cultural figure, sometimes referred to as The Messiah, was allegedly crucified and-- according to legend-- died for mankind�s so-called sins. Today kicks off a �holy� weekend that culminates on Easter Sunday, when, it is widely believed, this dead

�savior�-- who also, by the way, claimed to be the son of a sky-dwelling, invisible being known as God, mysteriously �rose from the dead.�
According to the legend, by volunteering to be killed and actually going through with it, Jesus saved every person who has ever lived-- and every person who ever will live-- from an eternity of suffering in a fiery region popularly known as hell, providing-- so the story goes-- that the person to be �saved� firmly believes this rather fanciful tale.
That would be an example of unbiased news reporting. Don�t wait around for it to happen. The aliens will land first."