Feb 19 2004, 07:01 PM
Copied below is the first posting made to the message board on 1-28-2004. Following this first posting is another posting that further explains the origins of the USDGC


I've just read the Harold Duvall interview article (page 27) about the USDGC that was in the most recent Disc Golf World News (#68). Mark Ellis(interviewer), Harold Duvall and Rick Rothstein(publisher) ALL know who came up with the concept of the United States Disc Golf Open! (which morphed into the name of USDGC because the United States Golf Association, USGA, put up legal roadblocks to the name, US Disc Golf Open). It was NOT Harold and NOT Dave and NOT Jonathon that originated this concept as the article misstated.

I brought the idea of a United States Championship to the PDGA Board in 1993, five years before it was "invented" by the Innova boys. I had been working with the Minneapolis Aquatennial Association in 1993 and 1994 to be a part of an annual summer celebration in Minneapolis that attracts thousands of people to the various entertainment venues. There was a change in upper management in early 1994 and the Aquatennial Association informed me that they were not going to honor their committment to have the event.

The one course and one division idea was mine. The qualifying events in the same year was my idea. I spent about $20,000 of my own money and about 2 years of my time in trying to bring this idea to fruition. I've still got all my documents relating back to that time and find it a little bit disingenuous that no recognition was given to me in the article.

SPECTATORS, SPONSORS AND THE MEDIA are still the MISSING ELEMENTS for success at PDGA tournaments. The one course, one division idea was driven by the need to have one course to focus on (not multiple courses at multiple locations) and that one division focus was to be on the best players because of the entertainment value of having the best players in the world compete (not multiple divisions where the level of play in other divisions is not of entertainment value to spectators).

Unfortunately, in 1997, Harold did not take my advice about NOT LOCATING a major event in a SMALL TOWN in South Carolina or a small town anywhere. The USDGC, in its current location, has proven to be a site that does not attract spectators and that 's been a death-knell to have any kind of credible sponsorship that's not disc related. The USDGC has apparently "proven" to potential sponsors that it is NOT a place to put your sponsor dollars because nobody is going to see the message. A sponsor always asks how many people were there last year. And what are you going to tell the sponsor? Well, hardly anyone showed up, but, we'd like you to give us some sponsor money? Spectators beget sponsors that beget media coverage. No spectators, then no sponsors, then no media.

The challenge for the PDGA(Innova) is to SHOW that we can do more than be good at accomodating players and staff at the USDGC. Absolutely the USDGC is the best run tournament with the best players in the world. But, tournaments have been conducted since the 1970s and we should have that part of players and staff down pretty good by now. Put the USDGC in a major metropolitan area that has a strong and long disc golf history. Locate the one course where there is public access (major roads or freeways adjacent), public parking and public amenities. Design the one course with spectators in mind (natural amphitheatres, ample room between holes to allow for pedestrian traffic). The USDGC will continue to be a small time tournament in a small town in its current state. And it's the National Championship of the United States and that's all the better we can do in terms of spectators, sponsors and media? Better keep your day jobs, players.






This is the start of the second posting





I want to give some additional facts about the origin of the United States national championship tournament that was originally sanctioned by the PDGA in 1993. I proposed The United States Disc Golf Open to the Board of Directors of the PDGA in August, 1992. Over a period of 8 months there was back-and-forth, give-and-take and lobbying done to hammer out and convince the Board of the merits of a new type of event that was revolutionary. A sanction was finally awarded to me in the spring of 1993 to use the name and this different type of tournament format in conducting the first ever PDGA championships in Disc Golf for the United States.



I had to overcome an institutional change of attitude in order to earn the sanction. Multiple courses and multiple divisions were the norm of the day. The only major tournament for professionals at that time was the Pro Worlds. All other tournaments were either regional or local in nature. The significant change proposed to the competitive format was to do a knock-off of traditional golf and do our own version of the US Open. Hence, the one division, one course tournament with a list of exempt and same-year qualified players with a cut after 36 holes to halve the field.



To accept and mitigate the downsizing of the playing experience I had to convince the Board that the other fundamental elements for tournament success would be greatly enhanced: real spectators, sponsors outside the sport and media attention. By bringing all these groups together, as we had never done before, the sport would benefit immensely.



I also had to convince the Board that I had the ability to put together an event of this magnitude. I had considerable Frisbee tournament directing experience going back to the 1970s and early 1980s. I was the director of the Sky of 10,000 Frisbees Tournament. The Sky of 10,000 Frisbees was part of the Minneapolis Aquatennial Association�s summer fun festival in Minneapolis and over a period of 5 years I was able to develop this event together with the Minnesota Frisbee Association and it drew thousands of spectators. Check out the photos from 1979 (http://www.svdgc.org/history/sky10000-1979.htm) and 1980 (http://www.svdgc.org/history/sky10000-1980.htm).



I had the Minneapolis Aquatennial Association�s approval to conduct the United States Disc Golf Open in 1993. However, because of the extended and protracted PDGA sanctioning process I was forced to postpone the 1993 version with the Aquatennial because I couldn�t deliver the official sanction from the PDGA. I began advertising and merchandising for the 1994 event in June of 1993 immediately after receiving the sanction from the Board. Check out the flyer and logo (http://www.svdgc.org/history/usopenflyer.jpg) and merchandise

(http://www.svdgc.org/history/USOpenMerch.htm).




Fast forward to the first part of 1994 and by then two qualifying tournaments for the 1994 US Disc Golf Open had been conducted. Then, under new management, the Aquatennial Association informed me that they would not honor their commitment to complete the tournament in 1994. Wow! It was the PDGA that caused the initial delay for one year when the Aquatennial was ready and then the Aquatennial came in with the news that put the sanction on the shelf. Not a good day.



Now I�ll take you to 1998 when I was the Commissioner of the PDGA. The Board received two proposals in late summer of 1998 and they both wanted to have the permission from the PDGA to call their respective tournament the official championship for the United States. Well, it didn�t take the Board 8 months to discuss the merits of this event. It was more like 8 minutes (well, a few minutes longer than that) to look at the bids and dust off the dormant sanction and award one tournament the exclusive rights for the United States championships. The PDGA allowed Innova to use the PDGA name in promoting the event as the ONLY legitimate and credible championship of the United States, i.e. the sanction.



My personal position at that Board meeting was to not award any bid because I felt that the location of both sites was poor in terms of attracting spectators. I had no desire to see yet another tournament that only catered to the players to the exclusion of those critical groups that were needed to market the PDGA. The desire of the membership of the PDGA, revealed through the survey in 1997, was to have greater sponsorship and media attention. Spectators by the thousands are what the sponsors are looking for to expose their message. Spectators by the thousands attract the media. I felt that the ability to say to a sponsor and the media that you had the US Championships gave you the greatest marketing tool available that the PDGA had to offer. Tell the sponsor and media that your tournament is regional or local in nature and you know the response as we�ve seen years of that already. I�ve always had the faith that, if presented properly, disc golf could and would attract thousands of spectators. This isn�t tidily-winks were talking about here.



Looking at the fundamentals of marketing you always deal with the 4 Ps: Product, Pricing, Promotion and Place of distribution. You can�t market effectively if you�re missing one of the 4Ps. Take, as an example, a snow shovel. You have absolutely the best snow shovel product in the market with its high tension steel construction and diamonds embedded at the bottom of the shovel so that you can scrape through anything. You promote your superior snow shovel on TV, radio and in the newspaper. It�s the lowest price snow shovel in the market. Three of the Ps are in place: great product, great promotion, great price. However, your Place of distribution for the snow shovel is in Florida and your marketing plan has failed. And you don�t sell bikinis in Nome, Alaska.



Harold wrote that they have �tried to copy (traditional) golf in every way possible, and we�ll continue to do so.� In golf, golf-related equipment manufacturers are NOT EXCLUDED as sponsors of the US Open, as is the case with the USDGC and their treatment of the other disc makers and vendors of the sport. In golf, the local club that has the PRIVILEGE of hosting the US Open has NO EXCLUSIVE claim to the intellectual property rights of the nation�s championship, as is the case with the USDGC and their posture towards the PDGA.



It was dis(c)ingenuous to not acknowledge the history of my efforts of time, money and action to change the mind set of the disc golf community starting in 1992. My efforts were driven by the benefit(s) that the sport would receive. I assigned all rights, title and interest to the name US Disc Golf Open to the PDGA in 1994. No one person, partnership or corporation should own the nation�s championship tournament in any sport and that�s the case in all sports EXCEPT disc golf. What�s good for the sport of disc golf is good for all the players and vendors. What�s �good� for a vendor in disc golf is not necessarily the best for the sport.



So, DGWN, a correction and clarification about the origins of the USDGC is in order as the membership has been given an incomplete and misleading history through the article published in the most recent edition. So, Innova, an acknowledgement on your part is in order in recognizing that the intellectual property rights of the PDGA's United States national championship for disc golf belong solely to the PDGA. Do the right thing.





Jim Challas

PDGA # 160

PDGA Commissioner 1998-2001

wit
Feb 21 2004, 07:46 PM
the DGWN and the USDGC still rock! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Feb 21 2004, 08:59 PM
Jim, thanks for sharing this information, and also for the vision and work you provided to bring the US Championship to disc golf. Maybe you could write an article, or someone could interview you for an upcoming edition of DGWN. I'd be interested in hearing your vision and suggestions for the sport of disc golf's future as well as your contributions of the past.

Is the present plan to move the tournament to Augusta in the future?, If so maybe PDGA installation of a championship course nearer Atlanta would be best for the sport since it could tap a much larger market for an audience. (Great courses built in Augusta would still be a must of course.)

dgconsultant
Feb 22 2004, 10:18 AM
Awesome Jim. I remember all of this very well because the bottom line was we were going where the spectators are--the missing component for sponsors. Still is and always has been. Hopefully the current board will heed the message.

Thanks for giving us the facts. It's not the first time I've seen credit for "planting seeds" not appropriately credited to the true founder. Believe me.

Feb 22 2004, 10:50 AM
Harold? Dave? Rick? Theo? Comments? It would seem there's a spot for commentary from each of you on at least some parts of this. We'd all like to read 'em.


(Gotta read more before posting my comments. Lord knows, I don't wanna be accused of ever flying off the handle without having all the info... :D)


Jim, thanks again for your original post and for the rest of the story further explained here.

Feb 22 2004, 12:25 PM
Let's look at a couple of facts before some of you get all worked up.

"Unfortunately, in 1997, Harold did not take my advice about NOT LOCATING a major event in a SMALL TOWN in South Carolina or a small town anywhere."

Please dont' forget this small town is within 10 Minutes of Charlotte, NC one of the largest and fastest growing cities in the country as well as a true disc golf mecca. That takes care of the metropolitan part. But if you still have a problem with that let's look at other sports and where they take place. LA Lakers do they play in LA? no they play in Englewood, the burbs. Rock Hill has this same affiliation with Charlotte, the burbs. Most NASCAR Events take place in small southern towns and they are the 2nd most watched sport out there. Ball Golf our distant cousin. Take a look at how many events are actually held in the city. None they're held in small towns or communities close to major metropolitan areas. you set up events where you have the space to accomodate them and there's no space left in the cities. It's all in the burbs.


"The USDGC, in its current location, has proven to be a site that does not attract spectators and that 's been a death-knell to have any kind of credible sponsorship that's not disc related. The USDGC has apparently "proven" to potential sponsors that it is NOT a place to put your sponsor dollars because nobody is going to see the message. A sponsor always asks how many people were there last year. And what are you going to tell the sponsor? Well, hardly anyone showed up, but, we'd like you to give us some sponsor money? Spectators beget sponsors that beget media coverage. No spectators, then no sponsors, then no media."

They do attract spectataors, even numbering in the 1000's but that's not the issue. Sponsors are not always looking to see how many spectators show up at your event. It's how many people will their message reach, mostly through the media. The course in Rock Hill is set up for media coverage. So how do we attract sponsors and the media then. Become a true professional sport for one. Clean up the bad image our "grass roots" forefathers started. The PDGA needs to adopt a no tolerance policy dealing with this. Not only during competition but outside of it as well for those competeing. Every other major sport has drug testing because it helps with the image of that sport. Until the PDGA starts this, no prime time media wants to touch us. No meida, no big sponsor money. It's that simple. Put the pipe down.


"The one course and one division idea was mine. The qualifying events in the same year was my idea. I spent about $20,000 of my own money and about 2 years of my time in trying to bring this idea to fruition. I've still got all my documents relating back to that time and find it a little bit disingenuous that no recognition was given to me in the article."

Thanks for the concept but the fact remains that you didn't pull it off and the "Innova boys" did. Whatever the case it's all relevant now. Innova has taken it to another level and is primed to be the one that finally achieves the goal of the national spotlight. Instead of seeking ancient glory, everyone involved in this Sport should embrace that and give them their full support. That's your core demographic group that the media and sponsors are looking for. 10 million strong and growing.

discette
Feb 22 2004, 05:13 PM
Jim, I am very glad you had vision and foresight when you were the PDGA Commissioner. It is unfortunate that you could not get your event off the ground. You deserve credit for all you did for this sport and for trying to make a National Tournament to showcase the best. However, please don't make light of those who had the ability to make the National Championships a reality. Not just a reality, but the most premier event in our sport. Perhaps you were just ahead of your time? For anyone who is interested, quite a few people already responded to Jim's statements on the DGWN thread. I think most agree with the above position, but say it better than I do.

Thanks to all your contributions to disc golf in Minnesota and the world. :D

larrywhitson
Feb 23 2004, 10:15 AM
Discette, where is the DGWN thread of which you speak?

LW

Feb 23 2004, 10:45 AM
I attended last years USDGC as a spectator and had the blessing from our corporate office of getting a $5,000 sponsorship for this years USDGC. But due to a few individuals, ( you know who you are) who refused to acknowledge my complaints and questions concerning the
process of notification and purchasing of USDGC Rocs, I will donate this money when available to the local and surrounding disc golf community. If the USDGC and Zonedriven are commited to promoting this event then let me suggest that you give the time of day to people who can make it happen, the spectator and the sponsor's. My questions and concerns were important to me but your lack of
customer service and professionalism really ticked me off. Any reply would have been better than no reply at all. :mad:

discette
Feb 23 2004, 01:34 PM
Larry the thread is at:

New DGWN (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showthreaded.php?Board=Other%20PDGA%20Topics&Number=134730&Searchpage=0&Main=133963&Search=true&#Post134730)

That link is to Jim's post on January 28th. There is more on that thread than just this topic however.

Some people were being post-hos. :p

Feb 23 2004, 02:18 PM
don't ya just love how truth is such a solid concept that it always seems to need the foundation of anonymity to keep itself righted?

sincerely,
mark atwood
pdga #16523
830-385-9682

anonymous posters weilding truth as their weapon have as much credibility as an al-queda day care facility.

Feb 23 2004, 02:22 PM
oh, and by the way, i'm not wanting to get "all worked up," but myself and i'm sure others, would still be very interested in hearing from some of the other principals involved here.

ya know, posting under their real names and stuff...

Feb 23 2004, 02:33 PM
I have attended all but the first USDGC as a spectator with no ties to the event other than cheering on the awesome group from Georgia that qualifies each year.
With Charlotte being a skip away, it is wonderful to plan a family vacation around the event. It gives you the opportunity to play Rennaissance Park and then see a showcase of the greatest golfers of the year!

I applaud Harold and his dedicated staff for pulling off this incredible event and making it better and better each year.
In 2003 I actually heard coverage of the event on a Rock hill radio station during Saturday tee offs.
If you don't believe an average ******* like me, ask the USDGC players how much they love Rock Hill!

It just keeps getting better and better and on behalf of my club, I want to say THANKS HAROLD AND JONATHAN

Feb 25 2004, 01:06 AM
Mark don't let an anonymous name fool you. For better or for worse sometimes it makes more sense to post under a ficticous name rather than upset the powers that be. And being one very heavily involved in this sport and it's growth. I've found this to be easier than stepping on too many toes. Unlike alot of aspects in life disc golfers seem to be more sensitive and don't take kindly to any type of criticism or questioning of the "establishment".

But know that I know you and you know me. And I know everyone involved. The facts still remain no matter who the poster is and I spoke the facts.

Sometimes the truth isn't what you want to hear.

prairie_dawg
Feb 25 2004, 01:40 PM
... Unlike alot of aspects in life disc golfers seem to be more sensitive and don't take kindly to any type of criticism or questioning of the "establishment".

... The facts still remain no matter who the poster is and I spoke the facts.

Sometimes the truth isn't what you want to hear.



The truth may hurt :o

So why are the Innova boys so reluctant to give Kudos since it appears to me that Jim jumped through the hoops first so that they didn't have to do as much work with the PDGA. Or did they jump through the PDGA hoops first to get the special Sanctioning :)

Truth is universal, the facts sometimes become skewed or overlooked. Now let this thread die /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

wander
Jul 01 2004, 09:16 AM
I'm hoping to include a segment on the USDGC in the next issue of Disc Golf Live and I'm looking for folks who captured video during previous USDGCs who might want to share what they have with others.

I'd like to do a piece that shows something about the course- what makes it unique and challenging, something about the ammenities - again, what makes this event the BEST, and finally, something about the competition. Not a full recounting of the action, but a recap of the outcome of the tourney. Footage doesn't have to be from '03.

If you have something to share, please let me know.

(oh yeah, if you want to arrange for DGL broadcast in your area, give me a shout as well!)

Jul 01 2004, 11:13 AM
If I remember correctly, the USDGC doesn't let you share any personal video from the tournament. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember someone tried to put footage on their website so people could see what the holes looked like and he was asked to take it down by the USDGC folks :confused:

wander
Jul 01 2004, 04:24 PM
Thanks for the heads up, Danny.

With Innova as a national underwriter for my project, I don't anticipate too much flack. I've chatted already with Mr. Duvall about the segment and some folks on his end may have material to add to the mix.

Joe

flyboy
Jul 15 2004, 12:02 PM
Fly 18 is golf for disc golf.I do not imulate the game with ropes and gimics ie clowns mouth.It is the most fairst game you will play on the most professional venue out there.All of my courses are made for spectators sponsors and TV.When you change the venue you will change the coustomer.When USDGC is over so is your sponsorship.Beer comes out of the tap 365 days a year we serve gatorade snickers and other major potential products at all of my courses.This is what sponsors are looking for a professional venue that all players can find holes 1 through 18.Have a scorecard a pencil and a his and hers bathrooms in 2 locations . After the USDGC is over go to the course as a family of 4, that saw it on tv.Try to find the basics, it is back to a park good luck family...Where is all the sponsors banners???Sponsorship is still supported by disc golfers FACT.If you did not get invited you can buy a disc that you already have not with that stamp oooooooh dont believe the hype rember Flava Flav .Disc golf is being built for dics golfers talk about the minority.Think of the family....think of women, think of kids ,this is the 90% who say what is disc golf ?USDGC is by far the best we have and I am happy for that but there is better FLY 18.

underparmike
Jul 15 2004, 01:06 PM
so reese, where's the new cars you promised for the winners of your Fly18 series this year? looks like they were one of your paranoid delusions. get yourself a shrink and some medication and then tell us if you really think fly18 is better than USDGC.

by the way, thanks for building a few courses. hope you get some therapy, then fly18 might really fly.

briangraham
Jul 15 2004, 02:12 PM
Disc golf on a ball golf course definitely has its advantages as Reese is always willing to remind us, and I wish him luck with this venture as it will expose our sport to people who have never heard of it before.

However, disc golf on a ball golf course also has its disadvantages. Why have there not been any large scale, top level disc golf events hosted on a Fly-18 course? Where are all of the big money sponsors that will supposedly flock to sponsor one of our events on a ball golf course? The biggest problem, as I see it is that a disc golf event cannot afford the fees to reserve a ball golf course for a tournament except for maybe on a Monday and I don't foresee Monday tournaments becoming a norm in our sport anytime in the near future.

neonnoodle
Jul 15 2004, 03:39 PM
USDGC is by far the best we have and I am happy for that but there is better FLY 18.



Who needs enemies with a delusional ego like that? :D

exczar
Jul 15 2004, 06:23 PM
USDGC is by far the best we have and I am happy for that but there is better FLY 18.



Who needs enemies with a delusional ego like that? :D



Kinda like being the poster boy for, "One-track mind, but derailed!"

keithjohnson
Jul 15 2004, 08:29 PM
Disc golf on a ball golf course definitely has its advantages as Reese is always willing to remind us, and I wish him luck with this venture as it will expose our sport to people who have never heard of it before.

However, disc golf on a ball golf course also has its disadvantages. Why have there not been any large scale, top level disc golf events hosted on a Fly-18 course? Where are all of the big money sponsors that will supposedly flock to sponsor one of our events on a ball golf course? The biggest problem, as I see it is that a disc golf event cannot afford the fees to reserve a ball golf course for a tournament except for maybe on a Monday and I don't foresee Monday tournaments becoming a norm in our sport anytime in the near future.



come to tucson at the end of august(saturday)the 28th and you will see a pdga sanctioned b-tier on a "ball" golf course that is set up as a par 62 on their par 72 because of playing 2 rounds there.i am crossing fairways to take advantage of trees and water that would NEVER come into play(or seldom)following the "ball golf" fairways without making them wide open short shots.
it is only a 65 dollar entry fee with 25 green fees total for both rounds ....
even though this isn't on a fly 18 course i think it will(and already has as everytime i'm out there preparing the regulars say "hi disc golf guy!") expose people to disc golf
whether this ever translates into something larger may or may not happen, but i enjoy the challenges and the designing
so as long as i am able to run tournaments in tucson i'll try to make them as nice as possible
keith

MTL21676
Jul 15 2004, 11:08 PM
Sarasota Sky Pilots A Tier has a round on a fly 18 every year - par 72.

I played it, while it was extremly unique, it got old and tireing

flyboy
Jul 16 2004, 12:48 AM
I have held many events on my courses and others have ran them.No major sponsors have added large cash to my events yet .They were not perm courses most.This is all part of conditioning .When I finish some more courses I will have something to offer sponsors .I dont have time for events I build courses. Iwill have to hire someone when that time comes.No the car deal did not happen to many strings attached.I have to go see my shrink, I have visions of grandure.Keith the courses you are working on I anwsered all the legal issues on the last event,with the city along with my business plan .We all want something better lets work together .The facts I brought up about USDGCwere are about family, women, and design along with sponsorship.I should have said USDGC pays out the most to disc golfers but lacks the basics.I am not a large coropration like Innova not lots of extra cash.Dont bash the messenger.sorry for the typeos :o

bruce_brakel
Jul 17 2004, 12:01 AM
Huh? Was somone looking for USDGC video or a debate about the merits of Fly 18?

I know, I know, Reese started it.

Troll monkeys! :D

gnduke
Jul 17 2004, 12:30 AM
And then someone responded and another and before you know it...

haroldduvall
Jul 17 2004, 11:37 PM
After a lot of hard work, the 2003 USDGC DVD is finally close at hand. The master is at the production house. The duplication should be finished, and the DVD's ready by the beginning of August.

We'll keep y'all posted as progress develops.

Take care,

Harold

rob
Jul 18 2004, 01:55 AM
Thanks Harold!

haroldduvall
Aug 18 2004, 10:01 PM
The 2003 USDGC Video is complete.

Take care,

Harold

idahojon
Aug 19 2004, 12:00 AM
The 2003 USDGC Video is complete.

Take care,

Harold



And available here for $19.95. (http://www.zonedriven.com)

Aug 19 2004, 02:12 AM
Thanks for the link!