Ive come across a subject that I find rather interesting and it opened up some legal questions regarding discs used in tournament play.

Here's what happened.....a friend came over and wanted to weigh his discs on my triple beam scale out of curiosity due to not knowing what the weights were on some old ones he uses. (btw I use it for legal buisness purposes :) so we ended weighing everything he had.......come to find out his store bought eleven time 175 tbird is actually a 179. Now that he knows what it weighs, can he still use it competition or is it illegal?

I also became intrigued and began weighing my own discs(all innova)....and to be honest not all were what they said, though most were within the legal weights of the manufacturers specifications not all were, the biggest shockers were a 178 firebird and 178 xd.

So what are the standards in our sport concerning equipment? Should I be allowed to use these on a windy day at the world championships? Does my friend have to retire his number one teebird?

Im not trying to knock innova ( I think theyre discs are sweet) Im just curious what the rules are about this kind of stuff.

Aloha -- Al

From what I understand when the Cyclone was the hot disc there were known to be quite a few that were heavier than the legal 176 weight even though they were marked 176. Max weight for a T-bird is listed as 176.0 (see tech standards at: http://www.wfdf.org/ruladi.htm Based on those tolerances, a T-bird at 177.4g could be allowed since the weight and measurements are rounded (8.349x21.249) to the nearest decigram and mm. When you consider that 5 grams is about the weight of a sheet of printer paper, it's understandable.

Second, I believe that as long as you don't do any post production modification, you can accept the disc as meeting the specifications if sold as a PDGA approved production disc. Third, players throw discs that are a few grams heavier than max weight all the time, especially in winter when the snow isn't all wiped off or spring when there may be extra mud not wiped off. So, it would be difficult to justify making a call for a few extra grams.

The standards indicate that a player can request a ruling from the director on a disc standards issue. However, the rules also don't require the TD to have a balance to handle such questions so I'm not sure how a marshal would handle this one. And, what if a player wanted the director to rule whether a specific disc passed the flex standard (just to be difficult)? As a TD, if it was a production disc, I would allow the disc. If it was a special hotstamp, I might be willing to disallow it with enough proof of a problem but I'm not sure what proof that would be onsite.

When you consider that 5 grams is about the weight of a sheet of printer paper...



A sheet of printer paper weighs the same amount as a US currency nickel??? I don't know why I know this, but a nickel weighs 5 grams.

I think I might know why you know that. Now put away your postage scales. :D

ROFL.....

Bring on my 180 G MONSTER!!!!!

;)

I do not believe that you can ethically throw a disc in PDGA sanctioned competition that is known to be above the maximum allowable weight for that mold. I am quite sure that you would never be caught or prosecuted per the rules of our game, since you can make blatantly obvious rules errors like missing your lie by a foot and a half to the side on a fairway runup where everyone in your group actually sees it and not get called.

But to use that an excuse to cheat is lame. You can weasel word it all you want like Chuck did, but if you know that your disc is above the legal limit and you use it in PDGA competition then you are intentionally circumventing the rules. i.e. cheating. People make mistakes, including those that make discs and weigh them. If your car's speedometer is broken and shows that you are doing 60 when in fact you are doing 90, you can bet that the ticket will still stick.

So that's why I say ethically. I am positive you will never get busted. But you know it is illegal. This is the exact mind-set of our "game" that pisses me off. Cheat if you can get away with it. It's prevalent out there. This isn't the NFL and we aren't offensive linemen, people!

Don't weigh your discs if you can't put them aside if they prove to be illegal. Screw the weasel words. :mad:

Was the disc weighed brand new or broken in, I own a few discs with trash imbedded in the rim, (due to playing outside) unless you plan to build sterile courses free of debris, I would think weight can change from throw to throw.

Rhett
What you are saying is DISCER'Z should have ETHIC'Z when they play. Just like in B.G. were they call stroke's on themselve'Z. I do not belive all player'Z in our sport belive that. :( :( :(

KARMA WILL RULE IN THE END /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Rhett,

I have a Super Puppy I have been using in strong winds with the numbers "192" written on the bottom.

As long as I believe that that number was the PDGA # of the previous owner, and not the weight, I'm ethically OK, right?

jk

Rhett,

I agree with you. It's a hard call, to want to weigh your "legal" discs out of curiousity (I don't have any business purposes for which to use my triple-beam, at least not any biz I can discuss (just kidding)), and then find out that one weighs more than the legal max, especially when it is marked "PDGA Approved".

I can't imagine a mfr is underweighing the discs, though. As a member of the PDGA Technical Standards Committee, I would like to examine these discs to determine their weight, and then contact the mfr with this "issue".

Getting back to ethics, I know where you are coming from, but I hate to penalize someone for knowing the rules, if you know what I mean.

If I was a TD, and a disc was called into question, and it turned up too heavy (who has a 3-beam at an event anyway?), if it was marked "PDGA Approved", I would take no action against the player for having a heavy disc. If it did not have this designation (as almost all custom stamps do not), I might want to take a stronger stand.

To the owner of the discs,

If you are sure about the weights, send them back to the mfr with a note stating what the problem is, and that you want replacement discs that are of legal weight, and I'm sure they will send you new ones.

That's all I'm saying, Bill. I didn't want to weigh my CFR CE Aero because I heard a bunch of them were 182g and I didn't want to take it out of my bag. But when I weighed it it came out to 178g so it got to stay. If it was over it wouldn't have.

If you know it's illegal, don't use it. Even though you know you;ll never be caught. That's the "ethical" part of it.

And BTW, I hate the "ball golfers have ethics" argument. Go to any course and watch the hacks kick their balls to better lies and cheat against their friends! You can't compare it to the PGA Tour guys who have so much potential money to win at next week's stop that even thinking about cheating or "bending the rules" this week would be retarded. It's a sound business decision to call penalties on yourself so that a remote TV camera doesn't get you DQ'd and threaten your livelihood.

That's a far different scenario from our touring disc golfers. Cheating or "bending the rules" might be the difference between eating or not, having enough gas money to get to the next stop or being able to stay on tour another week/month. You can't compare th etwo and say that ball golfers are "better". They are in a totally different situation.

Thanks for the feeback fellas.....I agree one solution is not to weigh them. Only problem with that is the fact that you wouldnt truly know the equipment youre using. This is one of the key factors that contribute to the decision making process on the golf course....especially in tough, windy conditions. Any professional or serious amatuer should know exactly what they are using.

And if you do weigh your discs and find out some are heavy....then what? You either have to play knowing its not exactly honest or you wasted your money on discs. Either way thats not right.

I agree though, its usually not that big of a deal but it is a gray area in our sport that creates an advantage for some at times......I'd bet money that a couple touring pros have won using discs that are above max weight, in windy conditions, knowingly or not.....someday our sport will have to tighten it up if we truly want an equal playing field.

About the debris.....its a good theory but that wasnt the case with these...mine were new and my friends tbird wasnt scuffed at all.

I've weighed my discs out of curiosity in the past and they do seem to vary somewhat (even from day to day). But what are we to do, have a 3-beam balance at the registration table at check-in? Register each disc with its weight that day?

Luke

there is a legal use for a triple beam??? :D:D:D

If your car's speedometer is broken and shows that you are doing 60 when in fact you are doing 90, you can bet that the ticket will still stick.




Actually if you have your speedometer calibrated by a licensed dealer, and it is determined that in fact the speedometer is off by 30mph, then the court dismisses the charges. You just have to prove that you had no knowledge of the fact :D

Sorry to drift.

Now back to the real legal issues at hand! Disarm those weapons of 180 grams or more! :D

[QUOTE]
If you know it's illegal, don't use it. Even though you know you;ll never be caught. That's the "ethical" part of it. [QUOTE]



I TOOK A CHING BOMB out of my BAG in the middle of a tourney because it flew into a BLACKBERRY BUSH and a THORN put a hole in the FLIGHT PLATE not visible to anyone cause it was in the lettering, but i new it was there so i pulled it out of my BAG.

You are correct about HACK'Z in general though RHETT

Well that sure posted STRANGE.
How can I QUOTE MYSELF???

Rhett, you are talking about recreational ball golfers. It is the same way with DG, rec players will throw two or three shots, putt until they make it, and make numerous other rules infactions. Golf is golf is golf, don't try to say Dg'ers don't do it, you know they do.

Another aspect to consider is the fact that many plastics are hygroscopic ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=hygroscopic ). I'm not sure if typical disc plastic falls under this category. Some plastics absorb more than others (Nylon is capable of absorbing up to 5% of its weight).

This might explain some of the discrepancies between the manufacturer's weight and one you saw later.

--Mike

You can weasel word it all you want like Chuck did, but if you know that your disc is above the legal limit and you use it in PDGA competition then you are intentionally circumventing the rules. i.e. cheating.



Somehow it seems - I don't know - unfair, possibly harsh, to trammel on Chuck who is one of the fairer and most polite posters on this board.

As I understand it, the weight rule on discs was incorporated for safety purposes. Having a disc that is 3 grams heavier than the legal limit hardly poses a significantly greater threat than one that is at the legal limit. Yes I know, all that extra stability really helps in a hard head wind. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

This is another of those rules in this sport that needs to be reexamined. The rule should hold at the level of the manufacturer but not at the level of the player. I have yet to find a player that thinks in terms of 1-3 grams as a playing advantage.

BTW, legal uses for triple balances, none, in fact there is no use for them at all anymore. They aren't nearly as accurate or easy to use as the newer electronic balances. Legal uses for accurate balances per se: science, mailing, and weighing your parrots - my personal favorite.

Aw, shucks. This disc issue is similar to one we discussed at the Summit. It's one thing to have a standard for the top of the basket height to range from 30-36 inches above the "playing surface" (just for Nick). But if the baskets are installed to handle munchkin putts, what purpose does it serve? Seems like an "installed standard" is needed.

It's interesting that players are currently held responsible for discs over specs they can't control. But I guess the right thing to do is to return it for either refund or replacement disc to be sent. What if the PDGA required the mfrs to pay postage both ways for over spec disc returns as a condition for approving each model? I suspect any weight problem would clear up rather quickly.

Thats pretty funny Chuck ;) ;) ;)

Has anyone ever seen a 195 Whammo 86 Softie?

Has anyone ever seen a 195 Whammo 86 Softie?



No...But I do have a 188.6 g Cyclone 2.....Par Infinity/Up-a-Tree Stamp :D

You can't compare it to the PGA Tour guys who have so much potential money to win at next week's stop that even thinking about cheating or "bending the rules" this week would be retarded. It's a sound business decision to call penalties on yourself so that a remote TV camera doesn't get you DQ'd and threaten your livelihood.



This'll give ya a laugh

http://sports.yahoo.com/pga/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpNWZic251BF9TAzI1NjY0ODI1BHNlYwN0 aA--?slug=ap-venturi-palmer&prov=ap&type=lgns

Rhett, you are talking about recreational ball golfers. It is the same way with DG, rec players will throw two or three shots, putt until they make it, and make numerous other rules infactions. Golf is golf is golf, don't try to say Dg'ers don't do it, you know they do.



You need to actually read my post. I never said or implied that disc golfers don't cheat or break the rules.

I am tired of the people bringing up the "integrity" issue while they claim that BALL GOLFERS have more integrity for the game. To that I say BS! The top level PGA Tour players would be stupid to cheat because there is so much money to win next week that you would have to be stupid to risk that by cheating this week! I say it is sound business and has nothing to do with ethics.

I have heard that every disc is about two to three grams heavier than what is written on the disc...i'm not completely sure so please feel free to confirm or disprove this if you know for sure :cool:

Rhett, you are talking about recreational ball golfers. It is the same way with DG, rec. players will throw two or three shots, putt until they make it, and make numerous other rules infractions. Golf is golf is golf, don't try to say Dg'ers don't do it, you know they do.



You need to actually read my post. I never said or implied that disc golfers don't cheat or break the rules.

I am tired of the people bringing up the "integrity" issue while they claim that BALL GOLFERS have more integrity for the game. To that I say BS! The top level PGA Tour players would be stupid to cheat because there is so much money to win next week that you would have to be stupid to risk that by cheating this week! I say it is sound business and has nothing to do with ethics.



Hey Rhett,

Actually, my guess is that there is little difference between DGers and BGers. I doubt that one sport selects for persons with less moral character than another. The idea that Pro-golfers might cheat less than others might be true but I also doubt that. Yes, if the cameras are on them they probably behave, the same as a less morally upstanding DGer does when the TD is watching, but there is a reason that none of the current BGers want to test the heads of their clubs for spring loading, they don't want the rest of the world to realize the reason they are all driving as far as Tiger now is that they are cheating. They (some subset of the whole) cheat where and when they can the same as current DGers (again, some subset of the whole) do. I included the link to the article on how Arnie supposedly cheated in his first PGA win to show that even the very best might cheat even in front of the cameras if they feel they can get away with it.

However, this still doesn't address the issue here. Should DGers be responsible for mistakes made at the factory? Within reason, I don't think so. If we really want to pursue this rule then we will have to introduce a weigh in and other time wasting and arcane processes to make sure no one "cheats." Talk about long tournaments!

Rhynoman, I have found that my discs are all over the place. I have a subset that are right on, a subset that weigh in a few grams under and a subset that weigh in over. By far, most of mine are at the correct weight.

I beleive that there are one or two other rules demanding a little more attention than this one. But just in case I'll put a digital scale in my bag... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

LUMAH! :)

In true Cong style, i.e. padding my posts.

what does LUMAH stand for?

Sorry,

If I LMAO I can't sit, I can only laugh until it hurts. :D

I agree theres much more important issues......however in fairness to both the companys who manufacture and the consumers who purchase mabye the rule should be reworded, that way the player isnt responsible and perhaps the disc makers have a bit of flexibility(no pun intended) :)

aloha- al

is there a patent on size of a disc?

I beleive that there are one or two other rules demanding a little more attention than this one. But just in case I'll put a digital scale in my bag... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Don't forget to pack your certified weights to verify the scale, otherwise it (the scales/balance) only gives meaningless numbers. :D LMAO

I think the original question was "what do you do with a disc that you know is over the legal weight limit for that mold" not "how do we enforce weight limits for all discs used in competition."

One is a personal choice, the other an organizational challenge. I agree that that challenge is currently very low on the priority list, as it should be. How each person decides the issue for themselves is a reflection on them.

True. Knowingly cheating takes a certain reptilian mindset. One I am unfamiliar with and have only come in contact with maybe 4 or 5 times in 24 years.

I think the original question was "what do you do with a disc that you know is over the legal weight limit for that mold" not "how do we enforce weight limits for all discs used in competition."



So what you're saying is you're a cheater if you use discs that you know are overweight . . . but you're fine as long as you don't weigh your discs! How is intentionally staying ignorant any better ethically than knowingly using illegal discs?

In terms of the rules . . .

The way it stands now, responsiblity for ensuring the use of legal discs lies with the player:

Rule 802.01A states: Discs used in play must meet all of the conditions set forth in the Official PDGA Technical Standards Document. See section 805 B for disc technical standards.

Section 805 B is a list of standards the disc must meet. 15th, and last, on this list is: have been certified for competition by the PDGA Technical Standards Committee.

According to the rulebook, then, PDGA certification is merely one criterion of a legal disc, not a guarantee of its legality. This makes sense vis a vis post-production modification. But if an unused, unmodified, PDGA certified disc may or may not be legal, and the player is liable if it's not, then what's the point of certification?

There are a few cumbersome solutions to this problem and one easy one.

We could have weigh-ins at every tournament, like they do with throwing implements at track meets. I don't think anybody wants that.

The PDGA could still hold players liable for illegal discs, but allow them to send in any that didn't meet standards, then fine manufacturers based on the number they received. This would almost certainly drive up the price of discs.

The easiest way would be to change the rules so that any PDGA certified new disc was legal for play, and any used or modified disc had to be able to meet the technical standards.

So what you're saying is you're a cheater if you use discs that you know are overweight . . .


Exactly.


but you're fine as long as you don't weigh your discs! How is intentionally staying ignorant any better ethically than knowingly using illegal discs?


That is the grey area if you have reason to believe that your disc might be overweight. If you have no reason to believe that your disc is over the limit, like with a plain ole Teebird you just bought, I would not consider you a cheater if it weighed in at 178g. If you happened to weight it and see that it was 178g and you then used it in PDGA sanctioned competition, then you are a cheater. If you have CE Aero in your bag and you've heard that a lot of them weighed in at 182g and you resist checking yours, then you are on questionable ground. You know your disc just might be illegal, but you aren't cheating because you don't know that it is illegal.

That's why I said it is a personal choice. Because it's not enforceable. But you know.

If you have CE Aero in your bag and you've heard that a lot of them weighed in at 182g and you resist checking yours, then you are on questionable ground. You know your disc just might be illegal, but you aren't cheating because you don't know that it is illegal.



Technically, yes, but to me it doesn't make sense to split hairs when you're talking ethics. Once you know your disc could be illegal, you're at fault for not checking. By extension, anyone using a max weight disc needs to confirm its legality.

Another angle is: The disc says "PDGA Certified." The PDGA knows that discs from this manufacturer don't always meet their weight standards, but they choose to certify the disc anyway. Therefore, regardless of its actual weight, the PDGA says this disc is ok to use. I know this is contrary to the rules as written, but as far as ethics are concerned, I think it's a valid way to look at the question.

In the weight range of 170 to 180 grams, I think the "just noticeable difference", also known as the "difference threshold" is three grams. This concept is easier to understand if you put a 50 pound back pack on, then add one pound. You will not notice a difference in weight. In other words, we like to think we can tell the difference in weight of a 176 vs a 178, but can we really? Has it been proven scientifically?

Has anyone built a machine and scientifically tested disc flight of the same mold with various weights? This could be a moot point if increasing the weight by 2 grams has an insignificant result, scientifically speaking.

I would tend to agree that a few grams weight will make no noticable difference in feel or flight pattern. I have always taken at face value that these discs are weighed by the manufacturer with a reliable scale.
I have never, and probably will never weigh my plastic unless required to do so. If it says "PDGA Approved", and I like the way it flies.... ching! There is no reason for manufacturers to purposefully flub weights, even if it would make the disc into some super chain seeking missile, which I seriously doubt any amount of weight could do. I mean, we are talking miniscule amounts of weight, gentlemen. I wil not, however, throw my "182" CE Aero from the 02 Am Worlds...simply because I trust that Innova said "whooops, we made some too heavy plastic...hmm let's give it out as collector's items.."
It would be interesting to have a medium to test what weight difference would provide significant amounts of change at throwing arm speed. Much like the robotic arm used to test drivers in ball golf. :cool:

There is no reason for manufacturers to purposefully flub weights



Sure there is. Cost & time (really the same thing since time = money). McCormack has posted on here before that it is a pain in the ***** to get discs right at max weight. Many go slightly over, and it takes time and money to shred those discs and recycle them. Maybe the guy running the machine has a quota to meet, and has a hot date, and wants to go home. He says, "ehh, it's only 3 grams over, f*** it, I'll just mark it at max weight, nobody will notice."

I'd do it. lol

Can someone explain to me why it is that hard to control the weight? At first, I just assumed it was pure plastic with a known density and since you presumably know the volume inside the mold, then you should therefore be able to predict the weight rather easily. This (mis)conception of the process got me wondering how they would even produce different weights with the same plastic.

Then someone told me that they add a "weighting agent" to the plastic (in different amounts I assume to get different weights) and the nature of this weighting agent makes the process more difficult to control.

Someone with knowledge of the process, please explain.

OK, here is the engineering answer to the question. This comes from my exp. with plastic injection not with Innova especially.
First a little background.
The material that is used to make discs is a composition of several different materials. This material is in the form of little pellets which is then poured into the machine which is run at anywhere between 300�F and 500�F which melts the material.
The material will be of uniform composition when in a 500 pound container, however when u r only shooting 1/3 of a pound it is difficult to keep the composition uniform. Also, when u look at how little they are changing the weight, approx. .5% of the total weight. (i used 1 gram change in a typical 170g disc.) U start to see why it is difficult to keep the weight accurate.

Couldn't you solve that problem by using a machine that melts all the material at once, mixes it, and then molds the discs?

Thanks for the reply. Let me try to restate what I thought you said for my own understanding and ask a few additional questions. They have a melted material of known density (each mixture may be different, but testable). They inject it into the mold of known volume. The uncertainty arises from:

1) They cannot control the volume they inject that precisely and therefore the corresponding weight is difficult to control; or

2) They can control the injected volume precisely, but the plastic (mixture of different materials) is not that uniform and therefore, even though the injected volume is equal, the material variability of each injection leads to the weight variance; or

3) They basically control all the variables well, but the tolerances in question are asking too much.

By the way, based on your description of the process, do they just inject less material to create lighter discs, and if so, are lighter discs actually "thinner" than heavier discs?

It is the non-uniformity of the material that is the reason the weight of the discs is difficult to control to within half a percent.
Typical Breakdown:
Material percentage density
material A 33 1.0g/cc
material B 33 1.2g/cc
material C 34 1.5g/cc

u can check some of this stuff out on
Mat Web (http://matweb.com)

I know that they keep the material very hush hush at innova which probably means that it is a custom blend.

I used to have a 183 DX valk. then i played riverside and lost it

...not to be a smart *****
There's a little thing reportedly invented by the Japanese, called SPC Statistical Process Control... by definition there will always be variance in the process (disc weight), the idea is to minimize the variance. So if your shooting for 175 gr. some of the discs will go over that weight, and some under.
The guy with the marker's only gonna be so accurate, and maybe he only weigh's one or more every hundred or so, whose to say.
../ :confused:my head hurtZ
Buy your discs locally and invest in a digital set of scales and maybe even a micrometer, if you like your disc height and weight just so...Get Out & Throw!
../tGossm

Talking to the Innova guys a couple of days ago, the temperature of the machines and the temp of the day and building also plays with the weight and ridgity of the discs. The discs at the start of a run could be different by the end of the run because of the temp of the plastic as it goes through the machine. You may also notice that discs that are in a certain weight range are the same colour, because they were all made around the same time, therefore trying to acheive a certain weight.

From the explanations I've heard, the difficulty in controlling a number of variables is what causes weight inconsistencies. So what's implied is that with more advanced machinery, it would be possible to solve this problem, but the technology would be too expensive.

:D

OK, So the next question, gentlemen, is how much difference does 3-5 grams make? Is it a measurable one?
If it is, and the rules demand equipment testing, then what?
I went out and digitally weighed my entire bag, and several back-ups. Out of twenty-three discs, four were incorrect by a maximum of 1.8 grams (lighter). Ironically, these were the oldest, most beat up discs in my bag. My TeeBirds were right, but I don't think the 179 in question on this thread is. If I knew it was illegal, I wouldn't throw it. We should, however, discern the difference in flight characteristics that x amount of grams will make, and allow for a non-discernable variance. That seems easier (and more sensible) than perfecting densitometry and micro-consistency in a man-made product like plastic. :cool:

One of the reasons why I brought this up is because at my home course which is an extreme mountain course, a 4 gram difference is noticable. For example if Im throwing a 600 ft downhill shot into a headwind its easy to see the difference between a 179 and 175 teebird.

Regardless, it does make sense to just change the wording in the rules so that once you buy a disc that says pdga approved it's legal for play. It sure would be the easiest solution.

Cool, then I can make my own discs that don't meet any specs at all, stamp PDGA approved on 'em (even though they're not), and they're legal? Yeah, that makes sense. :p

I guess that first you would have to find the "specs" first, right???

ok your right, that doesnt make the most sense :).....but thats exactly the issue here, pdga approved stamped discs that dont meet specs....there should be some easy solution.

How about just raising the legal max weight a few grams? Then when some go a couple grams over its legit?

just throwing some ideas out there.........

If disc manufacturer's have an agreement with the PDGA to meet published technical standards - should they not be obligated to accurately weigh their product, mark it accurately, and either destroy or recycle those products that fall outside the agreed upon specifications? Should the difficulty in producing discs at a target weight preclude weighing them accurately? Temperature and humidity may affect the ability to produce a disc at a desired weight - but once it has been made - those factors would have no affect on the weight.

There is the appearance that discs may be weighed and marked inaccurately to avoid the expense of recycling (this may or may not be true - I have NO IDEA about manufacturer's policy on this issue). But even with the evolving products being produced - one might think that after producing discs for 20+ years - the manufacturers would have a clue about what percentage of their product falls outside of technical standards specs - and build it into their cost of production. I see no excuse for an overweight disc making it into consumer hands.

That being said - the onus shouldn't be on the player to confirm the weight of their discs. But - if a player becomes aware that there disc falls outside legal limits - using it in competition would be a big no-no, worthy of DQ (IMO).

OK, here is the engineering answer to the question. This comes from my exp. with plastic injection not with Innova especially.
First a little background.
The material that is used to make discs is a composition of several different materials. This material is in the form of little pellets which is then poured into the machine which is run at anywhere between 300�F and 500�F which melts the material.
The material will be of uniform composition when in a 500 pound container, however when u r only shooting 1/3 of a pound it is difficult to keep the composition uniform. Also, when u look at how little they are changing the weight, approx. .5% of the total weight. (i used 1 gram change in a typical 170g disc.) U start to see why it is difficult to keep the weight accurate.



Is this necessarily true anymore? I ask because I've read somewhere that under the ISO9000 guidelines they are discussing error rates in the 10/million. Isn't it just a matter of using the right machines and technology? That's not to say that the cost isn't prohibitive. That is, it can be done but it just costs too much to do it?

Also, the reply from GoDiscGolf suggests that SPC accounts for the error. This seems to be the same issue? I understand variance but frankly, there is a lot of ways to control and limit your variance. For example, mail folders that are used to stuff bulk mailings are accurate to a very high degree in measuring weight since weight determines postage. There is variance but at a very low level. Again, I wonder if it isn't just a cost benefit analysis. For Innova, Discraft, Gateway etc. it probably doesn't pay to bring in the machinery necessary to give a very high level of accuracy. They could probably do it but the cost of plastic would skyrocket. In other words, we could pay $50/disc and every one would be perfect (until you wap a tree) or you can pay $12 - $17 (high quality plastic) and get an occasional reject. Overall the cost is still significantly lower, and they sell a lot more plastic than they would if they made perfect discs.

I wonder what Dave D. or Keith would say about this?

How about just raising the legal max weight a few grams? Then when some go a couple grams over its legit?



1. Why should the PDGA change their specs because the manufactueres can't or don't currently meet them?

2. What happens when the manufacturers try to make discs at/near the new max weight, and go over again?

Discraft has done an excellent job at solving this issue to the best of their ability, making a range of weights that the disc would fall into. Discs can possibly be out of this range, but IMO, it would be a much smaller percentage. Why doesn't Innova follow this ideal system and make their discs in certain ranges. Seriously, if you need to have a specific weight in order to throw a disc, you need a life. Learn the disc by how it flies not by what it weighs. Is this really that serious of an issue? I think not. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

1. Doesnt the pdga already try to solve this problem by having an extra gram over the regular production max weight in the legal specs? Or does innova actually try to make runs at 176 grams? Im not sure so Im asking.

2. In theory each disc would simply be run to 175 and advertised as such.....it could simply be a clause in the specs to cover the irregularities of manufacturing.

anyway like I said just throwing some ideas out there....

The Discraft ranges have nothing to do with this! Think before you post. They still churn out discs basically the same way. The only difference is that Innova weighs the discs and writes the weight on the bottom, while Discraft weighs the discs and puts a weight range sticker on the bottom.

ISO9000 and SPC and all that good stuff come into play in big industry. We're still a small sport. When the manufacturers get a little bigger and are more than "large garage" facilities then maybe some of this stuff would pay off to do. I'm sure they do some SPC-ish stuff anyways. They probably don't have books full of written processes and PCRs and CMMi models, though.

Geez Rhett, lil cranky there? Still not a big issue in my book. :p

What about the Optimizer? It's a disc that has 170gm as a part of the stamp and there is no weight sticker or pen mark. It's not an expensive disc, so I doubt they have spent considerably more on the quality assurance aspect of mold injected plastic products than competitors. What's up with that?!

Dude picks a disc stamped "PDGA Approved" off the shelf at the local convenient store. Later he discovers it weighs more than the specifications allow, then uses the disc in a PDGA sanctioned tournament.

Where does the burden of responsibility lie?
a) the convenient store
b) the local disc golf distributor
c) the manufacturer
d) the disc golfer
e) the tournament director
f) your Mamma

F :D

I would have to agree Adam

dig the avatar..I thought about "borrowing" that one, but never did - the bouncing fat kid will return

Adam are you a Science teacher or Mad scientist?

If not, it woudnt fit....

for James, it fits PERFECTLY!!!!!

Well, no and no, but I could be the devil, santa or the easter bunny - highly doubtful

Regardless, it does make sense to just change the wording in the rules so that once you buy a disc that says pdga approved it's legal for play. It sure would be the easiest solution.




Cool, then I can make my own discs that don't meet any specs at all, stamp PDGA approved on 'em (even though they're not), and they're legal? Yeah, that makes sense.




ok your right, that doesnt make the most sense :).....





It makes perfect sense. He's just busting your balls over semantics. So here's the way to make it airtight: The PDGA keeps a list of all approved discs, and their weight ranges, online. As long as you buy discs that are on the list, you should be fine.

- the bouncing fat kid will return



Take your time...

So here's the way to make it airtight: The PDGA keeps a list of all approved discs, and their weight ranges, online. As long as you buy discs that are on the list, you should be fine.



So.......I expect a smiley when you propose a "new method" that is exactly the same as the current method!

The Discraft ranges have nothing to do with this!



Those ranges have everything to do with this. It's a marketing strategy to overcome the problem.

People want discs at max weight, right? So everyone tries to make discs at max weight, some come in a few grams too light, and don't sell, some come in a few grams too heavy, and have to be recycled which costs money. The Scientific solution would be to figure out how to make them all come out at max weight. The marketing solution is to label everything within a gram or two as "max" and hide the fact that they're not exactly max. Brilliant.

we were talking about variances in the amnufacturing process, not people's hangups with 175g 21.2cm drivers.

Now thats a funny pict. Adam.

So here's the way to make it airtight: The PDGA keeps a list of all approved discs, and their weight ranges, online. As long as you buy discs that are on the list, you should be fine.



So.......I expect a smiley when you propose a "new method" that is exactly the same as the current method!



Is there already a list? Sorry, I should've done my research. But the "new method" is really the rules change that would make any unmodified, PDGA-approved disc legal for play.

Is there already a list? Sorry, I should've done my research. But the "new method" is really the rules change that would make any unmodified, PDGA-approved disc legal for play.



Yes there is and has been a list. Your original "new" rule said that if you stuck to the list "you should be okay". Which is exactly how it is now. :)

People want discs at max weight, right?



wrong.

some people do, some dont. i dread max weight drivers, especially for downwind, but even of the headwind variety.

i think the funniest thing ever on this board was somewhere someone talking about his 5 year old max weight magnet putter. the only way thats possible if it was never thrown. after five years its prolly not even the legal minimum weight.

People want discs at max weight, right?



wrong.




Sorry, rephrase:

Many people want max weight discs. There is a demand.

The answer is so simple. Just change the technical standards to provide an acceptable error... just like we do with basket height. In BG it's +/- 10cc in volume. One day these things will be more important - when people are earning million dollar paychecks and playing on million dollar courses. Right now, I feel it's a side issue and makes little to no difference in a player's score.