I am curious. Who is the bonehead that had the lame idea to create a Pro2 division?

Have they lost their freakin' mind? How about removing any doubt that there is no professionalism in the PDGA.

This is by far the most dumbarse idea in dg history. Whomever was responsible should be fired, unseated from the BOD and be banned from events.

What an idiotic divisional concept.It rewards mediocrity. If you cannot hang with the big dogs YOU moved up too fast.

The PDGA is ABSOLUTELY heading in the wrong direction. Get a clue. Sometime in this lifetime would be nice.

No smiley faces. They are for geeks and n00bs.

I think you are an idiot. Do some research and at least have a profile before you belittle an idea that you can't figure out. Pro2 is a great idea and MANY golfers would be better qualified for this division than PRO or ADVANCED. Who are you?
Why are you scared to show who you are?

:) :D:D ;)...you calling me a geek...are you in high school...and where did you learn to talk out of your [*****] like that?

If you cannot see how stupid of an idea PRO2 is... well, I would argue that it is you who is the ignorant one...

Show me ONE top PDGA pro that is for this. This PRO2 concept is truly stupid.

PRO2 is by far, the most idiotic step this organization has ever taken.

Remove all doubt that professionalism exists in the PDGA, why don't you?

Without a doubt, it is rewarding mediocrity.

The PDGA is in the habit of tweaking divisions endlessly. Give it up! By creating PRO2 this organization has truly made a boneheaded division.

The only "pros" that could POSSIBLY be for such divisional stupidity are truly NOT a professional athelete. Period. No debate.

Even that lame sport ball golf did not take such a moronic direction.

They should name it the Pansy Division, or perhaps just let these losers play against the Women.

Oh, wait that will not work, Juliana and Des would beat them too.

Get a clue. Wake up to the stupidity.

uh Mr. smart dude...ball golf has taken that step(a few years back)...as has every freakin other major sport in the world...you ever heard of the entire seperate tour that the PGA(that is ball golf mr smarty pants)sponsors...or have you ever heard of minor league baseball...it is a very big world out there dude :p

Here is a bag tag logo for the Pro-Pan-Z division.

http://channels.dal.net/frisbee/pansy.jpg

However that is the #1 tag, maybe the losers who actually sign up for the Pansy Division should play for the highest number since they are afraid to compete with disc golfers with skill.

PRO2 is a seriously bad idea.

You are mistaken about ball golf.

As far as Minor Leagues, you really think that argument holds water?

If you do not understand the difference between the Minors and the Majors, well, it is becoming fairly clear why such a boneheaded division would be developed in this organization.

Rewarding mediocrity is just plain dumb. Anyone who is for the PRO2 division is NOT a professional, plain and simple.

wow...dude are you saying that there is not a tour for ball golfers sponsored by the PGA where the top finishers qualify for the PGA tour the next season...do a google for Casey Martin...you are MR. SMARTY

Pro2 makes the top ADV, play Pro2 if offered, Now that IS a good idea. The event that I played in that offered Pro2, an ADV golfer cashed in the Pro2 division, and took the money. Now he is a pro golfer! This is a wonderful way to encourage ADV golfers to play pro, and make the toughest division even better.

oh yeah, I almost forgot. :D

I would think that dgusa was Reese...but flyboy knows ball golf...so who is the moron behind the mask :confused:

i think your refering to "the Nike Tour" :D

the tour has had several major sponsors(NIKE was one)...lots of press about the cart issue...but according to MR. Smarty Pants(MSP for short) I am mistaken...MSP must not have cable or read the sport section... :) :) :) :) :)

If you are attempting to compare the PGA Qualifiers with the PRO2 concept, I would argue that you are comparing apples and donkeys.

Not even in the same realm.

I am not sure what a Reese is, but I am not fond of candy bars.

Seriously, attack me all you want but the cluelessness exhibited here and the lack of understanding of how PRO2 undermines professionalism is revealing into how afraid of competition you are. Grow a pair, Alice.

The PRO2 nonsense will be detrimental, even if you do not have the brain power to see the long term effects of such a non professional direction for an organization to take.

I defy you geniuses to produce ONE real professional athelete that is FOR this PRO2 nonsense. A handful of forum geeks that likely have little or NO skill is not what I am refering to.

If you are for PRO2, you are a chicken that is afraid to take on players with real skills. Maybe your mommy can get you dressed in the morning but she can't protect you from REAL PROFESSIONAL ATHELETES.

As far as "forcing" someone to the PRO2 division, mentioned above, are you really in support of "forcing" players into divisions due to the dubious ratings system? Wow. unfreakinbelievable.

Most of the PRO ATHELETES I have spoken to are completely against this. That to me is not surprising because they are truly professionals.

dear dgusa
let me ask you a question
i started playing pro. and took cash,but my game hasn't really developed like i would have liked it to.so heres my question,as you put it i'am not really good enough to play with the big boys and i can't go back to playing adv. because i took cash.so what i'am to do,stop playing or hope for a divison like pro 2 to come along where hopefully i can be a little more competitive.
your advise please

If you are attempting to compare the PGA Qualifiers with the PRO2 concept, I would argue that you are comparing apples and donkeys.

Not even in the same realm.

I am not sure what a Reese is, but I am not fond of candy bars.

Seriously, attack me all you want but the cluelessness exhibited here and the lack of understanding of how PRO2 undermines professionalism is revealing into how afraid of competition you are. Grow a pair, Alice.

The PRO2 nonsense will be detrimental, even if you do not have the brain power to see the long term effects of such a non professional direction for an organization to take.

I defy you geniuses to produce ONE real professional athelete that is FOR this PRO2 nonsense. A handful of forum geeks that likely have little or NO skill is not what I am refering to.

If you are for PRO2, you are a chicken that is afraid to take on players with real skills. Maybe your mommy can get you dressed in the morning but she can't protect you from REAL PROFESSIONAL ATHELETES.

As far as "forcing" someone to the PRO2 division, mentioned above, are you really in support of "forcing" players into divisions due to the dubious ratings system? Wow. unfreakinbelievable.

Most of the PRO ATHELETES I have spoken to are completely against this. That to me is not surprising because they are truly professionals.



Why don't you explain why you think the PRO 2 division undermines professionalism? Also, let us know what the long term effects are? Does it really matter what the pros think? I mean they only account for 10% of total disc golfers. How about you back up the statements of your arguement with some facts (or what you belive to be points). Saying that most of the pros that you talked to are against it is not a very strong point.

Pro 2 players are not skilless. I wouldn't call them chicken either. They may have jobs which means that they cannot focus all of their time on disc golf. They may have families. They may be higher to mid-level advanced players who want to see how they do in this division. You have to also realize that this division isn't always offered.

Why don't you calm down with the anger and name calling. I mean calling people chicken while posting anonymous, that will get you laughed at.

DGUSA could have a point, but it is completely lost in his sophomoric, misogynistic rhetoric. For someone who remains anonymous, he sure has a lot to say about other people's fears. :eek:

For real. I love people that shout their opinion as loud as they can behind a veil of anonymity. Get some balls b itch!

wow...Reese is no longer the dumbest guy on the board...MSP or dgusa or assclown(what ever your friends call you), you are now the man, stand up and take a bow...true smart guy at work please stand back

If an ADVANCED disc golfer moves up to pro too soon, and cannot cash, that was the choice they made. No one forced them to move up. Tough luck. They are not a professional athelete with the skills needed. They just thought they were and made a horrible choice. Hence my use of the word bonehead.

On the other hand, creating a division for PROFESSIONALS that is a bail out from the OPEN division- just for the sake of lesser skilled "pro in their own mind" players having a better chance to "place" flys in the face of the word "professional"

Duh. Hello. Are you guys daft?

You are asking for protection and you are supposed to be a professional athelete. (someone who would move from OPEN to PRO2) Seems like a pansy to me. Freakin lame if you THINK about it.

The point is-- It isn't all about you and what you get. Rewarding mediocrity is just plain lame. The answer is practicing and becoming better, not creating a bail out division for also rans.

PRO2 undermines the word professional. Period. It amazes me that I would have to explain that. You folks are adults, right?

sounds to me like dgusa played in a tourney that made him(her?it?) play pro2 and got his as s handed to him.......betchya he isnt even a pro but seriously pro2 is just another option....this guy is talkin like disc golf is gonna flame out with the quickness because pdga decided to offer advanced ams the chance to test their game and see where they need to improve so they CAN compete i.e minor league baseball nba develpomental league...minor league hockey......to say that those examples dont compare is downright stupid....those minor leagues exist to A. give the players much needed input on where to improve their game and B. give the players something to shoot for...just because u can't hack it at that level dgusa doesnt mean that everyone else is wrong adn u r right......get off ur soapbox and PRACTICE MORE and maybe...maybe u'll be able to be a professional some day...and no i am not a pro......just someone who happens to know that opinions r like as s holes....everyone has one but some stink worse then others :p

why is it lame dgusa? to give people more options at tourneys or is it that u just think the pro division should only be for you?
:cool:

Pro 2 is a blended competitive grouping that is neither pro nor amateur. It allows lower rated pro players to compete with similarly rated amateurs in a single division. Amateurs can take prizes and retain their amateur status or they can take cash and go pro.

This year I'm offering Pro 2 on the opposite day as Advanced, Open and Pro Master. If you can't play Sunday because of work or other obligations, and you are a lesser pro or good amateur, at least you can come out and play against similarly rated opponents.

So far, the players have been slow to embrace the concept. It only costs me $5 to offer the division. If it encourages a few players to play who otherwise would have skipped the event entirely, that is why I run tournaments: to give players an opportunity to play.

At the Kensington, Pro 2 did not take anything away from Open. All my Pro 2 players told me that they would not have played Open on Sunday regardless of whether I had a Pro 2 option. If it had taken money away from Open, I'd be fine with that too. I did not create the concept. I'm merely finding a way to use the concept to create more opportunities for more players to compete.

Jane, you ignorant slut.

hey Mr. Red Headed Killa (has to be him)

Pro2 is for player like me who have been around for a long time but can't move back down. My PDGA rating is a low 944 and this does not even qualify for Pro!!!!!!!

And yes, I requested to move back down and was denied because I cashed in 2000. (and played Advanced for 8 years winning around 10 PDGA tournaments)

In every MAJOR sport including a lot of smaller ones, there are multible division based on skill. Pro 2 is just a small cash division between Advance and Pro.

In Baseball you have AAA, AA, A and rookie league. All these guys get paid. They are not good enough to play with the big guys either.

In Ball Golf, you have countless # of handicap tournaments and local tournaments. PGA card members are not allowed to play these events. They also have what was called the Nike tour (something else this year) These guys play for cash but CAN'T play on the PGA tour. The have to go to Qualifing school to do that, or play well on the PRO2 circut.

Football had Arena Leage and NFL Europe, both of leagues are paid cash and most of the players are owned by other NFL teams, but are usually 3/4th stringers or on the practice squad.

Foosball, has SEVERAL Pro division. You pay Rookie, Pro, or the top, Masters. Pro is like our Pro 2.

Even sports like Hockey have Minor Legues.

Even snow boarding, skate boarding and BMX bike riding have more than 1 cash division.

SO WHERE IS YOUR PROOF. Just because the local Clowns at your home course don't want to see players not play Pro, you can't say this would be a negitive for the sport. If anything, it will bring more players out.

Besides, less players in pro, means more money for the ones who cash. ($1000 split between 10 players is $100 per player, $1000 split between 20 players is only $50)

I've been told this loser is a narc. Get a life.

I think that the pro2 division is a good idea. Players that don't do that well in the Open division have a chance to work on thier game in event conditions, and build up the confidence level to play in the Open events. I don't know why you have to dog on something that will be good for the sport, if you don't like it, get involved and help make a difference.

You will not get any type of positive feedback due to the way you are "attacking" the PDGA, you will get no respect on this board!

I'am a top level pro, and I think this is a good idea, we need to groom the up and coming players so that the Open division will grow. I would rather see a Pro2 division, than to see people not play. Players would keep bagging in advanced and running off more Am players. Without more Am players, we will have no future. I don't know about you, but I know that Disc Golf will survive with, or without your support!

funny how anyone who disagrees or disproves this idiots theories is a narc or an idiot who needs to get a life....him and assclown sound like they r trying to start their own governing body....come to think of it maybe they should so they can see exactly how difficult it is to run a WORLWIDE organization....remember disc golf has grown in the neighborhood of 800% since 1990 so some things are gonna change and some things are going to have to change .....we have the ability to let the pdga know how we feel by writing letters to the BOD or e-mailing them. but if u think the BOD does not browse the forums u r f&**in nuts and all that is going to happen is they will start to ignore your posts as being from a hothead or an idiot and u will not get anything to change maybe if u tried to be a little more tactful instead of attacking more people would be willing to listen instead of just dismissing u out of hand like i did :D :mad::cool::) :p

it is times like this when I miss Mark Bruce

/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Maybe the NBA outta make a league for the teams that cant hang with the Lakers,Spurs,Pistons,Pacers,and Timberwolves.


I believe you are talking about the Eastern Conference. :)

Assclown and dgusa...twins separated at birth! By the way assclown, I like your self portrait. Does your twin look the same or does he have a few more pimples? I agree that both these guys probably got winged by an amatuer and still haven't gotten over it. :DAt least [*****] is man(?) enough to list his name. dgusa probably has to refer to cheat notes to remember his!
Anyway..Pro 2 is alright with me. Anything that helps discgolf in a competitive way is a plus.
P.S. dgusa, when you graduate to 7th grade, let us know so we can send a card! :D

The nationwide tour is the minors for the PGA the top 5 money winners or something like that get there PGA tourcards for the next year.

Wanna know who dgusa ([email protected]) and assclown ([email protected]) are? Go browse the Southern Nationals (http://sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,33863) website. Looks like the same topic of Pro 2 was brought up by "Pricktor" and one of his cronies. You all may remember him as wwworker or his real name, Victor Leblanc. He used to be a valuable PDGA volunteer but got disenchanted a few years ago and now spends his time attacking it. This guy got rode of town in both Baton Rouge and Houston because he was so disliked and is now based out of Lafayette, LA.

The funny thing about Vic is that he always complained about how Pro2 was the wannabe pro league and how stupid it was to reward these guys who couldn't hang with the big dogs. Then in the next breath he would complain if you didn't offer the Masters division. Uhhh, same thing, dingleberries.

(although it may be someone else) 3 dub was my 1st guess after the posting of that LA address. Kinda obvious....a cry for help....

Disagreements and debate are healthy when carried out in a civil manner, even if you don't have a point and can't explain yourself.

:eek:

Clovis, Victor - guys - if that's who you really are. Why do you care? You're not PDGA members - so what difference can it possibly make to YOU?

I might be considered a top pro by some. I won't bore you with my resume. On one level - I agree with you. But only a little - and this is how. Currently the divisional structure has to many "options" that are not based on skill. That's as far as I'll go though.

Masters, Advanced, Pro2 - are all overlapping divisions (IMO) as regards skill - and the PDGA should work to reconcile this part of the competitive structure to be applied more consistently across the country, and to provide a more equitable distribution of prizes for performance. If PRO2 is being used as a step towards achieving those goals - then I'm all for it. But if it's just another option to be used along with the current available options - then it's a waste of time. TD's in this part of the country haven't yet warmed to the PRO2 concept - so I haven't experienced its benefits/detriments personally.

But dudes - if you don't like something - and don't have an alternative - keep your lame A $$, no puttin, tree whackin
bu tts on the porch with your lazy, stupid, ugly dog.

Masters, Advanced, Pro2 - are all overlapping divisions (IMO) as regards skill.

Craig, you really don't mean that do you? Even when I play terrible, which is daily, my scores are better than the advanced field. There are some really good M's out there. I'm really insulted.

I have never been a PDGA member. I have never been a volunteer for the PDGA. You are mistaken.

I would never send this organization money.

dgusa - Then why do you care? And why should your opinion matter to anyone who IS a PDGA member? You don't appear interested in engaging in actual conversation on your own topic - just in bashing a group you're not even involved with - you must be pretty bored.

Chris - you a funny guy :) It would take a lot more than my comment to insult YOU!

Why do I care? Because I am a fan of the sport of disc golf and because the PDGA is making huge mistakes as an organization.

Monetary mismanagement, divisional lunacy and the leadership is lame.

I am a fan of the sport of disc golf



If this is TRUE than quit hiding behind an alias and do something about it and contact the BOD and discuss like a MAN with them. Not HIDING on here B*Itchin and Moaning. Sheesh what a PU$$

dgusa

And you are aware of all of these inadequacies because you took the time to join, become informed, talked with the administration, and came to your own conclusions NOT!!

Your stance comes from at best second hand information from people who have made your opinion for you. Come on dude - get a grip.

If you are what you say you are - a true fan of DG. Then grow some seeds and make your voice heard in a productive fashion. If all you represent is an outsider b itchfest - you are of no value to any of us.

If you want to have an opinion that people will listen to and respect;
1) Join the PDGA
2) Put in a DG Course
3) Run tournaments (sanctioned and unsanctioned)
4) Teach a kid to play
5) Teach a PE Teacher to play
6) Give away your old plastic to newbies

If you haven't or don't do any of these things - what HAVE you done to lend ANY credibility to your opinion?

1) Join the PDGA
This is something I will never do. I will not send more funds for them to mismanage.

2) Put in a DG Course
I have assisted in installing courses four different times.

3) Run tournaments (sanctioned and unsanctioned)
Ditto. I have run unsanctioned events.

4) Teach a kid to play
I have given presentations at three different schools and after school clubs, so far.

5) Teach a PE Teacher to play
See above.

6) Give away your old plastic to newbies
By the trunkload.




I really do not care what you folks think. Many of you spend all your time in a gossip mode and are PDGA drones and would follow the leadership over a cliff.

If you cannot stand someone pointing out stupid mistakes this association has made it may be due to the fact that you geniuses are blind to the reality of how much the PDGA is screwing up.

If you cannot stand someone pointing out stupid mistakes this association has made it may be due to the fact that you geniuses are blind to the reality of how much the PDGA is screwing up.



Dgusa, you obviously don't know what you're talking about. It seems to me that the majority of the voices I hear, at least on this discussion board, DO have problems with the way the PDGA handles things, not to exclude allocation of funds, and structure of divisional competition. So it has absolutely nothing to do with your dissent. The issue most of us have with you is your [*****]-backwards method of bringing this to light. I personally tend to disagree with you, but it's really hard to say, because you haven't come up with ONE SINGLE REASON THE PRO2 DIVISION IS A PROBLEM!!!

But this post is probably a waste of time on you with all of the words that exceed four letters...

Ahhhh, blanket generalizations, gotta love em.

Being that you are not, never have been, and never intend to be a member - your opinion as to what is good or bad carries very little weight.

And if the members reactions to what you have to say doesn't even matter to you - why even bother?

And even though you are not a member. I'm glad to hear you have been active in other productive ways.

To assume that everyone who posts here is some sort of drone, yes man, etc. only illustrates your ignorance of the depth and breadth of the personalities that occupy the board.

I will be the first to agree with you that the PDGA has made some bad decisions along the way. But you fail to acknowledge that in the past 10 years - huge strides have been made on virtually all important aspects of our development as a sport. Do you need a list? Or are you so stuck on your negative elements, that none of the good matters? Because that's how you come across.

[1) Join the PDGA
2) Put in a DG Course
3) Run tournaments (sanctioned and unsanctioned)
4) Teach a kid to play
5) Teach a PE Teacher to play
6) Give away your old plastic to newbies

These are such great ideas for the expansion of DG as both a recreational and competitive sport. One of the biggest attractions of the sport for me is competing against my own performance while enjoying the company of other people who like to communicate their ideas in a positive way. When I run into someone who comes off like a DGUSa or an [*****]clown, I have to shake my head and remember that DG is for everyone. then I usually let them play through so i don't have to deal with them or if they wont take their attitude problems elsewhere, I'll just make them look bad on the course.

Oh one more thing - anonymous posting also lends little credibility to your opinion. Why hide your identity? Seedless grapes?

Is anyone even offering Pro 2 besides me and a couple of TDs I talked into it? Ignoring the inanity coming from the original poster, are there any TDs out there who have offered the division or players who have played in the division, who have any insights?

Pro 2 will play Saturday at the Flip City MDGO. Pro 2 is the only Saturday division that will play longs twice, for those of you wanting to take a shot at qualifying for the USDGC.

The Tarheel Tourny in Chapel Hill, NC, offered pro2, and had a good amount of people in it. I personally didn't hear any grumblings at the event or after. An Adv golfer is now a pro b/c of the event offering pro2. Thanks Mark!

I guess what dgusa is really trying to say is... She/he would never join a club that would have her/him as a member.

One question dgusa, got anything positive to say?

If this is TRUE than quit hiding behind an alias and do something about it and contact the BOD and discuss like a MAN with them. Not HIDING on here B*Itchin and Moaning. Sheesh what a PU$$



I remember meeting you at an event where you were on another card near the group I was competing with. You were so far out of the competition that you were inconsequential.

The times we were near your card you whined and cussed like a punk most of the round. I've seen you play. You might belong in a PRO2 punk division because you are not a professional and your skills are AM level. The round I witnessed makes me think you are a cry baby, considering you had nothing to moan about but your own physical ineptitude at the sport of disc golf.

For those of you who have a problem with anon posting, get over it. I have been called three different people here. I have no idea who two of them are, but one of them has volunteered more than most disc golfers ever will. From what I heard he still is and is probably working on a course instead of participating in this forum.

The way you idiots gossip here is pathetic, drama queens.

The gossipy punkbitch mode you people remain in is the main reason I choose to be anonymous. What difference does it make anyway? Surely you do not think this forum makes a bit of difference. If you do, you are truly an idiot. If you do not, you are smart enough to know I am not including you in that statement.

One question dgusa, got anything positive to say?




Yes, eventually there will be a change for the better in the PDGA. It may take years because the current administration will have to die off. In the meantime sheep are easily herded and the cash cow keeps on mooing.

quote: "you idiots gossip here is pathetic, drama queens"

Aren't you posting as well? Reeled you right in to our little gossip session, didn't we now?

I'm laughing at the superior intellect!

Guess we can only hope to one day be as professional as you.

I personally have tried to engage you in this conversation - you don't appear interested. My beef with anon posting is that if you were not - I could engage you in this conversation privately - you don't allow that as an option. You seem ready and willing to call everybody (regardless of familiarity) names - and in the same breath call them unprofessional. Kinda backwards don't you think?

Therein lies the answer as to why your opinion goes only far enough to **** people off.

While some folks that post here perhaps consider their own opinions more highly than they should, most recognize this board as a place to sound off, or just talk about DG stuff. At the same time - many many posters here at least try and turn their gripes into some form of productive conversation - regardless of whether or not it makes it to policy makers. If you are unwilling to go that route - please refrain from calling people you have no clue about a bunch of punks, etc etc.

Dgusa please let me know who you are. so next time we can meet you sure talk alot CHIT for hiding behind an alias.

Hey guys, keep this up. It's funny. I want to make someone mad so that I can raise my post count.

This thread is making me laugh...dgusa, are you really that bitter?

Who tinkled in your wheaties this morning?

he's not bitter he is JUST A *******

I'm still curious how "cashing" in NC in a PRO-2 division made an AM a PRO player ?

I am not the least bit curious why DGUSA fails to respond with any substance or thought.

I personally believe that PRO-2 is a good division and if used will serve to keep many more players playing than it will drive away. To my mind, the Pros that opt for PRO-2 would not be playing MPO much longer anyway. Without PRO-2, they would just stop playing tournament golf period. Much better to keep them around in a different division than to loose them permanently. It will also serve to keep more lower rated ADV players in the game by allowing the PRO caliber players to move up and test the waters without making a permanent move.

He took cash.He was an Adv. player. He was forced to play in the Pro2 Div, because of his rating. Well he took first in his field, and rather than taking prizes, he took the cash. Open for life! He is actually a great player, who should have no problem taking other peoples money as well!

Are you threating violence seewhere? Ready for some jailtime? Most adults in a civilized society are above that childishness.

So I pointed out that you whine and cuss during rounds and responded to your tone. The truth may hurt but are not a professional. You have no emotional self control (your threats clarify that fact) and the way you whine while you play is surely the magnifying glass that exposes your AM level mentality. Grow up.

I have posted about problems that are caused by the PDGA and have verbally spanked a few of you because you are regular forum geeks that jump on any band wagon.

I have been posting about issues. You idiots are the gossipy whiners posting about others who are not even in this discussion.

The Advanced Player who won the PRO2 division took Cash Money instead of prizes. Even though he would not have cashed in the PRO division with his scores, he decided to go PRO and take home the money for the first time.

The addition of the PRO2 division at the TarHeel may have drawn a few lower rated open players away from the PRO division for that one tournament, but it ended up adding another PRO player to the ranks.

Good Stuff IMNSHO ;).

Oh, and as for Annon posting - whatever. Do what you feel you must, but personally I like to take credit for all the good (and sometimes ignorant) things I post here :D.

Geez! Enough already. You just keep throwing fuel to the fire. Then you sit back, wait for a reaction, laugh at it, then post again looking for the same. It's all good that you have your opinion and you have shared it. Just let it go man.

Watch it Girlie!

blah blah blah....
stop egging this guy on. he is obviously a liar, since he would have had to be a member or pay money to the pdga to play in a pdga tournament. and if he didn't, then this issue obviously doesn't affect him and not having played in pdga tournaments he doesn't know anything about it. while a debate on whether pro2 divisions is a good one, obviously his opinions don't really matter. I may try to offer the division at at least one of my tournaments just to try it out. thanks for the idea dgusa!

I am dgusa

No, I am dgusa

Are you threating violence seewhere? Ready for some jailtime? Most adults in a civilized society are above that childishness.

So I pointed out that you whine and cuss during rounds and responded to your tone. The truth may hurt but are not a professional. You have no emotional self control (your threats clarify that fact) and the way you whine while you play is surely the magnifying glass that exposes your AM level mentality. Grow up.

I have posted about problems that are caused by the PDGA and have verbally spanked a few of you because you are regular forum geeks that jump on any band wagon.

I have been posting about issues. You idiots are the gossipy whiners posting about others who are not even in this discussion.



You get an offical MTL WTF

Are you threating violence seewhere? Ready for some jailtime? Most adults in a civilized society are above that childishness.

So I pointed out that you whine and cuss during rounds and responded to your tone. The truth may hurt but are not a professional. You have no emotional self control (your threats clarify that fact) and the way you whine while you play is surely the magnifying glass that exposes your AM level mentality. Grow up.

I have posted about problems that are caused by the PDGA and have verbally spanked a few of you because you are regular forum geeks that jump on any band wagon.

I have been posting about issues. You idiots are the gossipy whiners posting about others who are not even in this discussion.



You get an official MTL WTF

I hear you.. keep hiding and you will be okay come to Texas States if you got anything else to say or let me know when you will be close to this area, and I will gladly meet you.. BRING IT

quote: "stop egging this guy on. he is obviously a liar"
But it is soooo much fun! Hey dgusa BUY A MINI

www.westvirginiaopen.com/sponsorship1.htm (http://www.westvirginiaopen.com/sponsorship1.htm)

Oh, sorry...your not a PDGA memeber, silly me.

We are offering Pro 2 at the Oregon Series events. In the first event ( Great Northwest Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4373) ), we had 23 Open, 13 Master, 1 Woman, and 4 Pro 2 players. In the Riverbend Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4448) this weekend, we had 16 Open, 11 Masters, and 13 Pro 2 players! The Pro 2 division was won by Doug Saulter, a Masters-age player who is staying Am just through this year's Worlds (he's an old ultimate player that only started playing disc golf in the last couple of years). I don't think he wanted to beat the Advanced division again (he's one a few of those already), and the Pro 2 division at least allowed him to take something for playing well.

I didn't hear any grumbling from anyone about having the division, and with that many people signing up for it, it's obviously popular, which was one of the main reasons we created it (to increase the options and enjoyment for a certain segment of players).

-Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner

My post count would suffer if I created a new name. Sorry, I lied. It's not me.

Whatsahysell?

We are offering Pro 2 at the Oregon Series events. In the first event ( Great Northwest Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4373) ), we had 23 Open, 13 Master, 1 Woman, and 4 Pro 2 players. In the Riverbend Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4448) this weekend, we had 16 Open, 11 Masters, and 13 Pro 2 players! The Pro 2 division was won by Doug Saulter, a Masters-age player who is staying Am just through this year's Worlds (he's an old ultimate player that only started playing disc golf in the last couple of years). I don't think he wanted to beat the Advanced division again (he's one a few of those already), and the Pro 2 division at least allowed him to take something for playing well.

I didn't hear any grumbling from anyone about having the division, and with that many people signing up for it, it's obviously popular, which was one of the main reasons we created it (to increase the options and enjoyment for a certain segment of players).

-Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner



It seems odd to me that you offer both the Pro 2 division and the Masters division as well.

The Pro 2 division and the Masters division are comprised of players of the same skill ranges. Isn't one of the main points of Pro 2 to reduce the number of divisions with overlapping skill ranges?

I was under the impression that when the Pro 2 division was offered, a redundant Masters division would not be offered. Highly skilled Masters would be forced then to play in Open where they belong. If you keep the Masters divisions, highly skilled Masters players can continue to sandbag their lower rated counterparts.

blah blah blah....
since he would have had to be a member or pay money to the pdga to play in a pdga tournament. and if he didn't, then this issue obviously doesn't affect him and not having played in pdga tournaments he doesn't know anything about it.



Surely you do not think that every event is sanctioned?

The PRO2 lunacy does have an impact on a sport that I love and those of us who want the professionalism to amount to more than a PRO2 mentality are willing to say how stupid of an idea it is.


I do not take forums as seriously as some of you obviously do. I take the undermining of professionalism very seriously.

My post count would suffer if I created a new name. Sorry, I lied. It's not me.

Whatsahysell?



Not me either, just copying my role model.

I take the undermining of professionalism very seriously.



Quite right, quite right. I could tell that right off the bat when you came out calling names and demeaning the system. Great professionalism. We could all learn a lesson from you.

If only we knew who you are...

Guess we'll all just have to follow blindly like the sheep we are :D

I'm sure this guy/gal is seriously enjoying all of y'alls flailing on the line. Amazing how such cheap stinky bait is so alluring and draws so many to the hook.

Kudus to the original troller. And some impalas, too.

I have an Impala, I have an Impala.

Tell us more.

blah blah blah....
since he would have had to be a member or pay money to the pdga to play in a pdga tournament. and if he didn't, then this issue obviously doesn't affect him and not having played in pdga tournaments he doesn't know anything about it.



Surely you do not think that every event is sanctioned?

The PRO2 lunacy does have an impact on a sport that I love and those of us who want the professionalism to amount to more than a PRO2 mentality are willing to say how stupid of an idea it is.


I do not take forums as seriously as some of you obviously do. I take the undermining of professionalism very seriously.


of course i know every event isn't sanctioned, but

If you don't play santioned tournaments this division doesn't affect you as you aren't a pro.

if you do play sanctioned tournaments, then you do pay money to the pdga, contrary to your statements.

so are you a liar or just confused?

your arguments are trite and stupid. go back under your bridge unless you have something intelligent to say. no matter how much you claim you are so much smarter, your posts show your true ignorance.

Show me the cliff!

Mark "the conformist" Susi
PDGA #7002

This is really amusing. Thanks to all the participants for a good read.

Bruce, MADC B Series Event, ANIMALFEST VI, at Warwick Town Park in NY will offer Pro2 and NO MASTERS division. I wonder if it is the NO MASTERS part of the Pro2 that has Victor's panties in such a bunch.

"DON'T PROTECT THEM!!! PROTECT ME!!!"

You always were a funny guy...

Okay Folks, there is no reasoning with this person. No need to keep trying.

Based on the posts, I have concluded that dgusa is Charlie Manson (who else rants like that?).

I know who it is but I won't tell.

How do you know Charlie Manson?

Oh do tell, then your post count is 2600!

Jeff I guess we view the PRO2 division differently.

I didn't think it was created to eliminate an age based division.

I thought it was created to help encourage the Non-Cashing PRO population to keep donating (only this time with the actual possibility of cashing) as well as encourage the High End (aka could be sandbagging) ADV AMs to take the step up to PRO and not be totally discouraged by the possible lack of cashing ability a NEW PRO (aka on the cusp - starting to play like the big dawgs but still showing some AM blow up tendencies) may experience.

There are many masters with a rating above 960 who have hardly a chance at cashing in the MPO division.

And if you're grouping "like rated players" together to cut out additional divisions - you may as well add FPO to that list (if you're going to cut out age based - go ahead and cut out gender based too) as most of the FPO players out there fall into the PRO2 division and I guess the ones left over should be donating to the MPOs just like the left over Master's according to your logic. :eek:

Wow - looks like ratings based competition to me. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I think the folks working on the ratings and formulas are great and their hard work is much appreciated. I also realize that the system is very far from perfect and has many variables - it is also difficult to differentiate between the ratings high rated players who stay in their respective regions with regards to actual skill levels. Until our ratings system shows truer readings as to skill level, I don't think it's appropriate to base division on these ratings for all PDGA play.

I think Girlie hit the head on the nail for PRO2. Now SHUT YOUR *** Victor

Still more gossip. I know who you are alluding to but he has been banned for a long time and cannot post here..

Back to the issue, enough of the gossip.

I find it amazing that most of you do not have any insight into how bad for the OPEN division PRO2 will end up being.

It will eventually degrade OPEN status. An OPEN division is professional competition in the pure form. Think about it.

You and I competed in OPEN if you can call it competing.

I will not be a Master for another 10 years.

This forum is full of gossip queens. How pathetic.

what do you care ???? than join the PDGA and voice your concerns

nevermind

actually according to your logic dgusa, pro2 is awesome, since it gets rid of the open players who have no way of competing with your awesome abilities and makes open the creme de la creme division!
too bad you won't have all the added cash players to line your pockets though.

I'm an Am, and I think this is a great idea for the simple reason it will get the "AM's" with ratings over 950 to step up and play with better competition. In other words, it gives the Am field a move even look by moving the baggers out of there. Let them take prizes if they are scared to take the cash. I have seen Am's with ratings in the 960's and 970's even. WTF? Great move PDGA, move them up.

pro 2 is for weiners
pro 1 is for whiners
why can't the weiners and whiners get together, drop some letters and all come out winners?

There are many masters with a rating above 960 who have hardly a chance at cashing in the MPO division.

And if you're grouping "like rated players" together to cut out additional divisions - you may as well add FPO to that list (if you're going to cut out age based - go ahead and cut out gender based too) as most of the FPO players out there fall into the PRO2 division and I guess the ones left over should be donating to the MPOs just like the left over Master's according to your logic. :eek:



Girlie,

The 'cash' line in Open at most events is around 970-980 for smaller tournaments and close to 1000 at high profile events. For Masters players rated 960 and above, playing at 30-40 points higher than their rating doesn't seem out of line to me - I think they have an excellent chance at cashing in Open! Current Open golfers with player ratings between 935-960 have a lot tougher chances in the current system of cashing in the Open division.

We've had this discussion before - cutting out age divisions is one thing but cutting out gender divisions is quite another. All the surveys and feedback from women indicate that they would much rather play with other women and avoid the testosterone-filled male groupings. Unless you can convince me with testament from many other women that this has changed, I believe you are one of a select few that doesn't mind playing in tournaments with men. There are so few women in this sport! We've got to do everything we can to encourage them to stay in it, which means continuing to offer their own divisions.

Additionally, your statement that FPO women would fall into the Pro 2 Division is incorrect, if we assume that the Pro 2 division is defined as under 960 and down to about 935. There are only ten women in the world currently registered with the PDGA with a rating of 915 and higher. Clearly, there is never a reason to remove the FPO or any other female division.

I see your point about Pro 2 being designed for current non-cashing Pros and high end advanced Ams. But I also think it should be extended to Masters-aged players as well. Having a Pro 2 division and a Masters division at the same tournament where players have the same ratings and will shoot the same scores seems totally redundant to me. And it does nothing to eliminate the 990+ and 1000+ rated Masters players who are sandbagging all the other 920-950 rated Masters players in that division.

And it does nothing to eliminate the 990+ and 1000+ rated Masters players who are sandbagging all the other 920-950 rated Masters players in that division.


Except give them the option of playing in the PRO-2 division if they don't feel like donating to the top level Masters.

Personally, I am glad to see the return of R*bert R**sien to posting! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The creation of Pro2 shows that the sport is growing. As more players join in competitions, the skill gap between top and bottom of any level will increase. So we create a new level to keep players of similar skill together. It's a good thing.

Too funny.... love the avatar!

"uuhhh..... we have sort of a problem, here" :D

I love the one division one winner types. They are the truest of optimists.

I'd like to see the attendence numbers if all PDGA events were just Open Division with $100 entry fees. Or even $50 entry fees. How many women, masters, grandmasters, juniors, and for that matter Open players would remain active in organized PDGA golf? Half? A quarter? A tenth? And with no sponsorship or player base then where would their purses be, not to mention our sport.

No, it simply won't work that way, and no TD or player worth their oats would purpose that it would (least not without major major sponsorship [INNOVA], or 10 to 100 other events feeding cash and players into it).

I don't think we have it just right yet, either, but attempts to get a large demographic of our players (such as the low end pros, who are a step from the exit door, and top end ams who face uncertain at best chances among the sharks) to stay in the sport, and a steady movement towards an integrated skill/age/gender based competitive system, instead of one based solely on age and gender are great developments in my opinion.

I believe Pro 2 was created for 2 reasons:

Many players do well in Adv, move up due to pressure, have a good weekend, accept some cash, and then start donating. Many people stopped playing our sport because of this - so Pro 2 helps these players

Also, as everyone knows, gives Adv. players who want to play worlds the chance to compete in a division w/ players in the same boat with them, without wasting money by not accepting cash and then not having to dominate adv. and give other players a chance to win

We've had this discussion before - cutting out age divisions is one thing but cutting out gender divisions is quite another. All the surveys and feedback from women indicate that they would much rather play with other women and avoid the testosterone-filled male groupings.



Hmmm, surveys and feedback from Masters-aged players indicate that they enjoy the opportunity to play with people their own age. Most Masters Players really enjoy playing with other people in their age group and staying out of those highly-competitive young whippersnapper groupings. They enjoy "working" each other as they have probably been playing with/against the same basic player base throught their succession in the PDGA from AM to ADV and on to PRO and finally to the FUN division, MASTERS.

Are their voices not as loud as the very few women out there saying that they want to compete against their own X chromosomes?

Our previous argument was about a request to eliminate the gender based division during a ratings based event. When the event is based entirely on ratings, why would you seperate out the women to play against each other instead of playing against all those other PLAYERS who are in the same ratings bracket? 2 totally different topics.

When the competition is ratings based - you encourage adding additional divisions to seperate out women based on gender because "all the women like playing together". When the competion is OPEN - you encourage the deletion of a division even though the overwhelming voice from that division is screaming "we like to play together - please don't force us into a broader division". Seems like a bit of a double standard to me.

And if I may re-iterate from my previous comments regarding my own personal willingness to play against the fellas during a ratings based event. I want to and will do this in order to have the opportunity to play against a LARGER FIELD of PLAYERS in my SKILL LEVEL. I understand that there are not enough women playing the game (competitively) currently to warrent a ratings based EVENT for women only, so I play with the boys until that day comes.

Many of you keep repeating the PRO2 division is a bail out for disc golfers who thought they were a professional athelete and found out they made a bad choice.

By supporting PRO2 you are rewarding lesser skilled golfers because of a bad choice THEY made.

You got it. Better than having them leave the sport.

And if you're grouping "like rated players" together to cut out additional divisions - you may as well add FPO to that list (if you're going to cut out age based - go ahead and cut out gender based too) as most of the FPO players out there fall into the PRO2 division and I guess the ones left over should be donating to the MPOs just like the left over Master's according to your logic. :eek:



REALITY CHECK:

There are 107 pro women members of the PDGA. None has an Open (960+) rating and 10 have Pro 2 ratings. By my quick count 28 have Men's Intermediate ratings and 69 have Men's Recreational ratings, but I may be off by one or two.

Let's not kid ourselves.

Hey Gary,

It sure is a shame to come back from such a fun weekend of golf on those two beautiful, challenging Wimberley courses, only to hear a bunch of self-serving, crybaby-***** whining from some "no talent" having, no-named professional wannabe.

DISCLAIMER: Although this type of name-calling isn't my standard mode of communication (unless I'm dealing with Frank :D), I once read somewhere that to be understood by someone, you have to communicate to them on their level.

BamBam,
You going to get a chance to play somewhere this week ?
I'm stuck at home this weekend with the pager.
Good job at Wimberley. You must have not been feeling well, you only beat me by 14 strokes.

Oh yeah, PRO-2 is a good idea.

Bruce, I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that 960 is the rating number for PRO2. There are no ratings requirements for Open, and none for Pro2, but if you are an amateur rated at 960 or above, you must Pro2 if it is offered. Is that right? If so, what exactly do you mean by "Pro 2 rating"?

I'm probably just going to play the Lake course mini and dubs afterwards this weekend... got quite a list of "honey-do's" piling up that will keep me busy most of the rest of the weekend.

And anyways, Gary... I was thinking your game must have been off this weekend when I didn't see your name at the top. Heck, I was pretty happy with my game, for the most part... get rid of a handful of "WTFWT" shots, and I did purdy good. Hell, I beat all but one of the ADV players, and 19 of the pros... hey, maybe I should move up to PRO2!!! :D:D:D

And if I may re-iterate from my previous comments regarding my own personal willingness to play against the fellas during a ratings based event. I want to and will do this in order to have the opportunity to play against a LARGER FIELD of PLAYERS in my SKILL LEVEL. I understand that there are not enough women playing the game (competitively) currently to warrent a ratings based EVENT for women only, so I play with the boys until that day comes.



You're right, there are too few women in the sport for the ratings-based format to have much of a difference. You are still playing against the same 4 or 5 women that you always play against. It's not like there are dozens of Masters-aged women that you will play against in the ratings-based format that you don't normally play against in the standard PDGA tourny format because they are all in WPM.

Have women been polled whether they would still prefer to play against women in the ratings-based format? I doubt the question has ever been asked. You have stated that you prefer to play against the fellas in that scenario. I have a feeling that no matter the format, most women will never want to play with the fellas, but you'd have to ask the women themselves to know for sure.

Driving most of the night and getting to the course at 6:00 AM is not a good plan of attack for those courses. I do have most of my distance (what little bit there was to begin with) back though.

Ouch... no doubt! I would not want to play a tourney on those courses on no sleep.

Will you be playing the Arlington TX10?

No, I'll be in Lubbock for the Big Arms On the Brazos. It's an LSDGA Invitational qualifier.

Good luck in Lubbock!

Too funny.... love the avatar!

"uuhhh..... we have sort of a problem, here" :D



"Oh, I almost forgot, I'm gonna have to ask you go ahead and come in on Sunday too."

Com'on Ryan.

I've not played against you yet, at least I can't remeber if I have. :o) Go out to L-town and play on a different course. It'll be fun and the more competition the better... My throwing wing is back up to about 80% so I might have a chance in the windy stretches of Mackenzie Park.

Gary's goin' :cool:

BTW Pro 2 Rocks and until you have a better idea for keeping players going to tournies, your advice is just like [*****]holes, it stinks :mad:

Hmm.. your name's not familiar to me, Ray, but then again, I'm not the greatest at remembering names.

I'd love to play L-town this weekend. I love playing new courses... case in point, this past weekend was my first trip to Wimberley, and God willing, it will not be my last. Unfortunately, I've just been reminded by my wife that I have a family member's high school graduation to attend this Saturday afternoon, so I won't even be playing the local mini.

Looking forward to catching you at 100%... I don't want you having any excuses, yano. :D

I think he means June 19/20th in Lubbock.

BAM BAM :D

Well, in that case, the answer is easy... NO! :p

I like Arlington, and don't get to play it much... it's not just around the corner, yano. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Besides, it has more to do with the fact that I have work scheduled for June 20th, so I wouldn't be able to do a two-day that weekend, anyway.

Lubbock is on the map, though... I'll make it there someday.

my only concern with pro2 actually, is that pros can only play it if they are 960 or below, but ams can play it if they are above 960. i guess there aren't many ams over 960 though...

Doesn't quite seem fair to the Pros does it ?

Bruce, I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that 960 is the rating number for PRO2. There are no ratings requirements for Open, and none for Pro2, but if you are an amateur rated at 960 or above, you must Pro2 if it is offered. Is that right? If so, what exactly do you mean by "Pro 2 rating"?

This is just a matter of definition of terms. By Open rating, I mean a rating that does not allow a pro to play in a lower pro division. By advanced rating i mean a rating that does not allow an amateur to play in a lower amateur division. Similarly, by silver rating i would mean a rating that precludes a player from playing Bronze.

Obviously there are no PDGA divisions that have a floor and advanced only has a ceiling when Pro 2 is offered.

I think our divisions ought to have a floor. I think if you had to earn the right to play in a division, and only players of a certain level were allowed to play in that division, there would be a lot less bagger-calling and a lot less nonsense like 859 rec players calling themselves pros because they paid the extra ten bucks for a pro card. I think it would be good for competition in general if players had to play their way out of a division instead of just promoting themselves whenever it suited their self-esteem.

That's what I'm talking about.

I think if you had to earn the right to play in a division, and only players of a certain level were allowed to play in that division, there would be a lot less bagger-calling and a lot less nonsense like 859 rec players calling themselves pros because they paid the extra ten bucks for a pro card.


:D ;) :D

I think our divisions ought to have a floor.

Here here! :D

I think our divisions ought to have a floor.

Here here! :D

:D:D $1 :D :D

Jon and I are talking in code. He knows what I mean.

Do you suppose that if I preregistered a bunch of junior boys for Open at some Supertour that usually fills, the rest of the PDGA would see a need for a floor?

Not this year...

Pro2 is a good way to escape the doldrums of the Am1 ranks. Let's face it. It gets boring playing against the same 5 people. I played Pro2 in Chapel Hill, met some nice folks, and played some good golf. The Ams who played this division, 2 would have won advanced, (err, beat the rest of the advanced field) one was forced to play, he came in third, and I came in 4th. I didn't accept cash. I'm not stupid. The Pro2 field was larger than the Pro field. What did this accomplish?

Maybe 4 pros moved "down" to pro2.
About 10 advanced played up. Lessening the Am "cash". but allowing some folks who rarely cash to take something home.
The Pro masters would have invaded the Pro2, but they ended up with enough players to form a division.

I'll probably play Pro2 again at the Points Bonanza.

Heck, I'll play it until I feel confident I am done with the Am ranks. I will not play pro as the extra money is simply a donation. I like to bring something home. I don't always, but it's nice to have goals. Pro2 is merely a step up the evolutionary scale.
Pro2 is here to stay, because there are a lot of good Ams who want to move up, the less drastic the jump is, the better. Do you move from a Honda straight into a Bentley? No, you'll probably own a few different vehicles in between...

WWW, big red killa, or who ever you are

Narc eh??

The only people who have ever called me a Narc needed to be turned in. I guess that makes you a "smoker". (BTW, I have yet to get anyone DQ'd or suspended, only a letter of repremand. Yet there have been several DQ's and suspensions now because of the stand your PDGA members have taken on CLEANING up the PDGA.)

There will be a Pro2 division at the Carrollton Open. I think this tournament is large enough to have one. I would like to see some old players come out of the woodworks and play.

Adv will be playing for a basket(or lots of plastic) Open pro playing for added cash, Pro2 playing for pick your own 100% payout or cash.

Another gossip queen, eh? Keep guessing ratfink.

I am not a smoker. I think people who do drugs are emotional weaklings.

If you click on a user's name and then scroll down and click on ignore, you see when they post but don't see the substance of their post.

I did not know that before.

The Pro masters would have invaded the Pro2, but they ended up with enough players to form a division.




At Chapel Hill, there were only 3 Pro Masters under 960. I THINK the other 2 besides me were planning to play Open, but I could be mistaken.

The old guys should have let me play Pro2! ;)

I'm looking forward to playing Pro2 at Warwick. Personnally, I agree with Jeff L re: offerring Pro2 and Masters at the same time. Seems like it ought to be Open and Pro 2 OR Open and Masters. But, hey, this was the first event ever in NC to offer Pro2 as an option and I believe the players loved it.

Chapel Hill had 12 Open, 9 Masters, 14 Pro2, and 33 ADV.

It might have been 20 Open, 9 Masters, 39 ADV

or

It might have been 18 Open, 17 Pro2, 33 ADV

+ or -

LW

Thanks Bruce,

That "Ignore" feature is awesome!

Hope you are not "Ignoring" my appreciation. ;)

I would support divisional skill based floors for all divisions IF we became a Professional Disc Golf Association.

What I mean by that is that ALL divisions would have to be considered "Professional". It is against the principles of any true definition of "Amateur Sport" to force a player to become a professional.

So long as we want to retain amateurs within our single track competitive structure I will NEVER support a policy to force Amateurs to become Professionals. I'd never support it even if they were separated for that matter.

This goes to the heart of our sports misconception and abuse of what "Amateur" means. It is not a lesser form of professional play, it is a totally and completely different phenomenon all together.

Or at least it should be...

I would support divisional skill based floors for all divisions IF we became a Professional Disc Golf Association.


I think that floors would be prevent players from playing up, ceilings would be the things that force players into the next division.

We currently have ceilings in MA3, FW3, MA2 and FW2. We have no floors. A 830 rated player can play in any division thier age allows them to play just by signing up for that division.

Floors would prevent you from playing up until you had a chance to be competitive in the next higher division. You would have to earn your way into the next division.

I would think the floor should be about 10-20 points below the ceiling though. If the MA2/MA1 boundary is set to 915 (the MA2 ceiling) then the floor to MA1 should be set at 895-905. Meaning you have to play MA1 if you are above 914, but are allowed to sign up for MA1 only if you are above the 895-905 cutoff. Below that you have to sign up for MA2.

This goes to the heart of our sports misconception and abuse of what "Amateur" means. It is not a lesser form of professional play, it is a totally and completely different phenomenon all together.

Or at least it should be...



I agree with this.

am�a�teur A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.
Sports. An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.

With the addition of Pro2 and amateur can retain their amateur status, while playing the Professionals.

pro�fes�sion�al
Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

A 830 rated player can play in any division thier age allows them to play just by signing up for that division.

we can use mark as an example here! :D

yes very cool ignor feature :D

If you click on a user's name and then scroll down and click on ignore, you see when they post but don't see the substance of their post.

I did not know that before.



That is fantastic!!!! :D

Is there a George Bush ignore feature?

Yeah, but it only works in Canada! :D

I would support divisional skill based floors for all divisions IF we became a Professional Disc Golf Association.


I think that floors would be prevent players from playing up, ceilings would be the things that force players into the next division.

We currently have ceilings in MA3, FW3, MA2 and FW2. We have no floors. A 830 rated player can play in any division thier age allows them to play just by signing up for that division.

Floors would prevent you from playing up until you had a chance to be competitive in the next higher division. You would have to earn your way into the next division.

I would think the floor should be about 10-20 points below the ceiling though. If the MA2/MA1 boundary is set to 915 (the MA2 ceiling) then the floor to MA1 should be set at 895-905. Meaning you have to play MA1 if you are above 914, but are allowed to sign up for MA1 only if you are above the 895-905 cutoff. Below that you have to sign up for MA2.



I like that concept Gary. My question would be does a nonrated person have to start out in MA3 wait for the ratings update to be able to move up to MA1 if their rating comes out above 914?

Not a likely scenario, but the kid that won MA3 at COTO, his first event BTW, would have cashed in MA2 and wouldn't have been DFL in MA1. How long does he have to play MA3 before he can move up, the next ratings update? :D He should be playing MA2 his next event IMO. :D

What do you think about these types of situations?

Ray :cool:

I was in the same situation as that kid is. I tied for first in MA3 during the Zilker Park Ice Bowl which was my first tourny. I have no rating still so I don't know what division I fit in but I do know that if I played MA3 at every event I would most likely cash at every event. So, I followed the "you win, you move up" model and I reside in MA2 now. So should the kid you are talking about.

What do you think about these types of situations?



The United States Chess Federation has (or used to have) an "Unrated" division at their tourneys. I'm pretty sure you had to join the USCF to play in tourneys, and it took something like 3 or 7 rated rounds to establish your first rating. After that you entered at your A/B/C/D rating and were ineligible for unrated.

We could do the same, but the only way to make it work would be to require PDGA membership in order to play PDGA tournaments. I do not think this would be a bad thing. New or unrated members would only be able to play in the Unrated division, and that division should be player pack and trophy only. 2 or 3 rounds from the first tourney should be enough for a preliminary rating and we would be off and running.

Just a thought.

Thanks Bruce,

That "Ignore" feature is awesome!

Hope you are not "Ignoring" my appreciation. ;)


Nick, you are too important to be ignored. And your insults are so quickly forgotten, I cannot recall any one of them in particular.

Egotistical Fathead

my only concern with pro2 actually, is that pros can only play it if they are 960 or below, but ams can play it if they are above 960. i guess there aren't many ams over 960 though...



This is a whacky feature. But it is almost like letting flying elephants play in the rhino division.

I realize that now only 30% of you are reading this, :D, but if you click "quote" you can quickly see the text of what you are ignoring.

We could do the same, but the only way to make it work would be to require PDGA membership in order to play PDGA tournaments. I do not think this would be a bad thing. New or unrated members would only be able to play in the Unrated division, and that division should be player pack and trophy only. 2 or 3 rounds from the first tourney should be enough for a preliminary rating and we would be off and running.



Not a bad thought at that Rhett, however I'm not ready to concede that the Un-rated division is the same as a True Amateur Class. This un-rated division should be treated just like any other Gambler/Carney Pro Style Division.

Let�s not confuse the issue. We want to create a place for un-rated players to compete and gain a meaningful PDGA Player Rating, not a place for True Amateur Competitors to compete. The True Amateur Class has yet to receive any direct consideration short of requiring player�s packages.

I have a suspicion that this is about to change though�.

Thanks Bruce,

That "Ignore" feature is awesome!

Hope you are not "Ignoring" my appreciation. ;)


Nick, you are too important to be ignored. And your insults are so quickly forgotten, I cannot recall any one of them in particular.

Egotistical Fathead



Well, at least you're not the petty type that holds a grudge forever...

Let’s not confuse the issue. We want to create a place for un-rated players to compete and gain a meaningful PDGA Player Rating, not a place for True Amateur Competitors to compete. The True Amateur Class has yet to receive any direct consideration short of requiring player’s packages.



Nick, it is you who are confusing the issue. Purposefully, no doubt. This discussion was about Amatuer divisions having ceilings and floors and how that could be accomplished. This discussion was not about scrapping the entire PDGA amateur competition structure in favor of your desired "True Amateur Class". (Which happens to no longer exist in any sport that adults compete in whatsoever.)

An unrated division is a pretty simple concept. It's for people without ratings. You don't compete in the amateur prize-class unless you have a rating, and you need a way to get one. We can argue about your "True Am Class" as separate topic, but please don't confuse the issues (again).

Speaking of petty grudges.... :D

We were also discussing the crossover of skill level between our Advanced, Open and Masters divisions. And if we are going to have a ceiling (Pro 2) for the Advanced Class, where they must essentially turn pro, then this IS a discussion about the transition from Am to Pro.

Though I contend that there is no such distinction, just Carney and gambler. We have no "Amateur Class" and I don't see any reason to make an un-rated division in the form of what a true amateur division would look like, because that just muddies already cloudy water.

Do we need an un-rated division for players without PDGA Player Ratings? Yes. But do we need to treat them any differently than players with PDGA Player Ratings? Yes and No. Yes they shouldn't be randomly thrown into a skill-based division; And no they should be afforded all the opportunities to experience PDGA Competition (which means Carney/gambler playing for other competitors entry fees).

If we want to start a division for true amateurs, then let's do it, and not confuse the issue with trying to force true amateur competition on folks just because they lack a PDGA Player Rating.

Being "amateur" has nothing to do with skill level or whether one has a PDGA Player Rating. Do other sports abuse and misuse the "amateur" label? Sure. But the principles of amateur competition are not diminished, only the meaning of the word (and your apparent misunderstanding of it).

I don't recall a bump to pro being discussed in the floor/ceiling discussions.

Also please try to remember that I have been in favor of dropping the whole pro/am classifications altogether for quite a while, allowing transition up or down based on ratings.

I can also handle using the definitions of Amateur and Pro that our organization uses when discussing the classes. You should try to get over it so you can join in discussion without constantly getting sidetracked and using derogatory terms that confuse and sidetrack the discussions because of your pet peeve.

I am all for an unrated division where you pay a low entry fee and receive a basically flat payout (maybe even just the player's pack) and get to compete and earn a rating. It would allow true beginners to play cheap and get a disc, and push those players that are good enough to cash into getting a PDGA number and a rating.

A 830 rated player can play in any division thier age allows them to play just by signing up for that division.

we can use mark as an example here! :D



Glad I could help out. Bastages. Ignore this!

Is there a division you haven't played yet ?

I think we should have a division for the "most ignored user".dgusa and [*****]wipe are leading this division and are running a close race. "hurrah" for ignore!! :D:D:D

*** You are ignoring this user ***

Keep posting away, assclown and dgusa. Soon the entire board will have deaf ears and hear none of your evil.

I personally agree with the idea of floors on divisions. Earning your place is very important and is probably the idea that started this thread. However, i also think that people shouldn't be forced to turn pro. I know that there is a ceiling on am ratings to keep people from sandbagging so maybe that is why a pro 2 was created, to give pro level amatuers the option of remaining am while keeping the am2 division competitive for lower rated players.
It is a tricky task, but remember when the olympics were once amatuer only. The worlds best athletes had to retain their am status to compete against their peers. That is over now, but some of the worlds best still retain am status to complete college. I think that a div. like pro2 offers a great opporunity for the growth of competitive golf, and the choice wether or not to cash out is very important especially as our sport becomes more popular.

Is there a division you haven't played yet ?



MPM, but I'll get that this year. :)

that is one type of cycle

I am not willing to give up on amateur play being introduced into the competitive structure of the PDGA. In the meantime I would welcome an end to the inappropriate use of "Amateur" to describe the "Protected Professional Prize Divisions".

Names are important, but the lack of a true amateur class is even more important.

It would be a huge mistake to have a single professional track for everyone without a strong (and real) amateur track.

By all means create your single track of professional players, but it would fly in the face of all sports history to have a huge professional class without any amateur class. Disc golf loves to fly, but so long as we do not present an amateur option, a real amateur option, we will be tethered to the ground.

Our competitive structure is a little on the incestuous side in that it does not provide a yin for the yang. You cannot truly have professionals without amateurs, right now we just have varying degrees of carneys and gamblers (are those the derogatory names you refer to? They are just more accurate than Pro/Am.).

On the topic of floors in what we currently call amateur class, how do you intend to make earning a higher level something desired? By "PAYING THEM OUT MORE CASH!?!" or withholding better CASH from less skilled divisions?

Lightning has finally struck twice in the same place....I may actually agree with Nick :eek: IMO Ams should only be playing for trophies and bragging rights. I think a division within that structure like Pro 2 would have it's place. If you want to compete against the best of the Ams, people who are not yet ready for pro, or those who moved up a little too fast for whatever reason, this would be the division to play in. If you feel that you are ready you could take the $$$.... if not then take merch in place of that $$$. I here the arguement all the time that the Ams are the way a tourney makes money(off the sale of merchandise instead of cash), but picture 100 PAID players competing for a trophy(that would bring in some dollars too). The unfortunate thing is we have already set down the path of paying out the Ams and to do anything differently now would almost be like shooting yourself in the foot(as a TD).

Now I'm just waiting for the "you hardly ever cash and that's the only reason you feel that way" comments to come raining down :o

*Rains down those far too easy comments*


SCREW THAT!!!!

a 10th place trophy, isnt very glamorous, but 10th place payout, cna be a good thing.

*FIGHTING FOR LAST CASH FOR FAR TOO LONG*

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I like the trophy idea.

When I was young and played soccer on a rec league, I also swam on a rec league. At the end of the YEAR, we would have a awards ceremony, and all that participated in the meets/matches, would get one stinkin' trophy! but you know what, I still have those trophies in a box at my mothers house. The kids did not stop coming because the "payout" (trophies) stunk, the kids played because they enjoyed the sport! I played soccer for 6 years, and swam for 9, So 15 trophies that will stay with me for a long time.

but picture 100 PAID players competing for a trophy(that would bring in some dollars too)



The problem is that you would have to drop entry fees and increase amenities to keep the interest up. You would also not be able to sanction the events because you could not meet the PDGA guidelines for payout.

For kids, of course.....just lik in many of our tournaments, we pay out all Juniors.

But as Adults, I just doint see it going over en masse.......

I like the trophy idea.

When I was young and played soccer on a rec league, ...



Did the people running that league make a profit on it that they used to fatten the payouts to the pro soccer league?

I can't answer that question, don't know. But I think it was run under the YSA Youth Soccer Assoc.

I like the trophy idea.

When I was young and played soccer on a rec league, ...



Did the people running that league make a profit on it that they used to fatten the payouts to the pro soccer league?



No but the companies hauling in all the $$$ for the shoes, shin pads, soccer balls, mouth guards, goals, uniforms, etc, those Amateurs use DEFINITELY DO! As do the dollars those young players spend on posters, jerseys, and lunch boxes of their favorite players. Not to mention the ticket sales to go watch them in arenas, or the tv revenues.

Merchandising to Amateurs to support a Professional Class is nothing new or corrupt. Whereas, merchandising to some amateurs to support other amateur divisions "PAYOUT" stinks to all high heaven. (Particularly when none of these amateurs are really Amateurs!)

The Amateur Class needs to become something WORTH protecting from Professionals. Those that are really Professionals in Amateur Name Alone, will readily find a familiar place to compete in the Professional Divisions (particularly with the advent of PDGA R Tiers and Pro2).

A healthy and REAL Amateur Class is worth the possible risk of losing a few players unwilling to give up their meal ticket at such a dear cost to the other players and the very validity of our sport. I don�t think the growing pains will be anything near as dire as folks think and the long-term payoffs will be absolutely huge. (You want evidence? How about every other Major Sport!)

I like the trophy idea.

When I was young and played soccer on a rec league, ...



Did the people running that league make a profit on it that they used to fatten the payouts to the pro soccer league?



No but the companies hauling in all the $$$ for the shoes, shin pads, soccer balls, mouth guards, goals, uniforms, etc, those Amateurs use DEFINITELY DO! As do the dollars those young players spend on posters, jerseys, and lunch boxes of their favorite players. Not to mention the ticket sales to go watch them in arenas, or the tv revenues.

Merchandising to Amateurs to support a Professional Class is nothing new or corrupt. Whereas, merchandising to some amateurs to support other amateur divisions "PAYOUT" stinks to all high heaven. (Particularly when none of these amateurs are really Amateurs!)

The Amateur Class needs to become something WORTH protecting from Professionals. Those that are really Professionals in Amateur Name Alone, will readily find a familiar place to compete in the Professional Divisions (particularly with the advent of PDGA R Tiers and Pro2).

A healthy and REAL Amateur Class is worth the possible risk of losing a few players unwilling to give up their meal ticket at such a dear cost to the other players and the very validity of our sport. I don�t think the growing pains will be anything near as dire as folks think and the long-term payoffs will be absolutely huge. (You want evidence? How about every other Major Sport!)



So Nick,

You're a TD with experience. Go run one of these tournies just like you keep talking about and let us know how it turns out. Actions speak louder than words, so they say. Lead the way.

I'm very interested in seeing how it turns out :cool:

Ray

Nick no longer has the "A" flag by his name. I think we can ignore him now! Yea! Progress on the message board!

Nick no longer has the "A" flag by his name. I think we can ignore him now! Yea! Progress on the message board!




Even if it succeeds in one place, at one time, I know it wont go over very well here in Texas, unless the tournemnt is fora really gfreat cause, etc....

If we wanted to play for fun and enjoyment strictly, we woud all just play in unorganized events.

Of course, we have one no payout tournament here every year, and it is probably the biggest attendance of the entire state....

TEXAS TEAMS!!!!!

Ray,

Generally speaking, walking the talk is excellent advice. But what I am proposing is not possible for a single TD operating on his own to accomplish. It is a huge systematic alteration in our main governing organizational competitive divisional structure.

Truth is, I believe that, whether as a result of my constant (and possibly annoying) advocacy or not, disc golfers, tournament directors, regional organizers and the PDGA are all starting to come around to our sports dire need for a True Amateur Class. Steps have already been taken in this direction and I am confident that further steps will be continue to be taken in the near and distant future. I will do my part on the level that I am able to be effective, as will many, and together we will all be a part of ushering a new era of growth and prosperity for disc golf. (After all, no one will benefit more from a True Amateur Class as much as the Prize/Cash Professional Class of players.)

A real amateur disc golf organization will immerge; one way or another. The decision we, the PDGA, face is do we want to be an active participant in this immergence, a hindrance or a by standard?

Nick

Cong,

Of course you would not participate in such a classification. Why would you attend an amateur competition when you are a professional disc golfer.

You need to understand that I am not proposing fitting a round peg into a square hole. Disc golfers who prefer payouts (Pros) will have their Classification and Divisions in which to continue to compete for each other�s entry fees and modest sponsorship in the form of cash or prizes.

There may well be a nice chunk of "actual" amateurs currently within our membership that WOULD opt for the new Amateur Class, but even they are not who I am talking about creating this New Classification for.

I am talking about every group that by charter or law may not participate in competition for personal profit, and every person that finds the gambling aspect of such competition as cheapening the purity of competition: Citizens Groups, College Students, High School Students, Middle School Students, and don�t forget folks that are just, what should I call them, how about AMATEUR SPORTSMEN!!!

Currently nowhere within our competitive system is there a place for them to participate. Though perhaps acceptable to the �leave it as it is bumps�, this simply is unacceptable for folks committed to the REAL growth and strengthening of disc golf across the board. I am confident that the �Do Somethings� will win out in this battle for the future of our sport, and just as confident that the detractors and whiners will go screaming and kicking into a, for them, frightening and uncertain future, with actual organized amateur disc golf out growing professional disc golf by millions of times over.

Nick

If what you're predicting happens and the PDGA adopts a policy of no merchandise payouts, it will only help regional tours like those in Texas and the Southeast. There are still people out there that like to play for plastic, like it or not. I mean, I've played in 18 events since June and only three were PDGA sanctioned. So I'm not really concerned if this happens or not. I would likely have no reason to continue to renew my membership, however, unless I want to continue receiving DGWN. Good Luck. :cool:rWc

If what you're predicting happens and the PDGA adopts a policy of no merchandise payouts, it will only help regional tours like those in Texas and the Southeast. There are still people out there that like to play for plastic, like it or not. I mean, I've played in 18 events since June and only three were PDGA sanctioned. So I'm not really concerned if this happens or not. I would likely have no reason to continue to renew my membership, however, unless I want to continue receiving DGWN. Good Luck. :cool:rWc



Russ, please read my post again. You have completely misunderstood. I did not nor have I ever suggested that we stop merchandise payouts to players in what we now call the �Amateur Class�. I am all for players playing for whatever reward suits them.

What I am suggesting is that we simply present a NEW option, one with a longer and more successful history (at least in every other sport), something �inherently� different from the uniform one now offered in PDGA and SN sanctioned events.

It is called an �Amateur Class�.

Nick can't get past the semantics of this issue. He envisions some gigantic and completely unproven mass of new players that will suddenly enter formal competition simply if they are not competing for prizes. The vision he constantly presents on this board, at least as far as I can read it, is that there are many many many people waiting in the wings to play tourneys, but they just don't want to gamble.

I suppose it could be true.

I can accept calling people pros who neither earn a living at disc golf nor carry themselves in a professional manner on the course, because they play for cash. Nick just can not accept the PDGAs definition of Amateur and will sidetrack any discussion of competitive structure change with this inablility to get past a term.

Does that sum it up correctly Nick?

What I am suggesting is that we simply present a NEW option, one with a longer and more successful history (at least in every other sport), something �inherently� different from the uniform one now offered in PDGA and SN sanctioned events. It is called an �Amateur Class�.



Good idea; don't mind if I do. Flip City MDGO, trophy-only option: $10 after player pack rebate in all amateur divisions. Or pay the regular entry fee and get in for prizes. Either way you get PDGA points and MDGO points if you are a member.

We are doing Kiralyn's cool micro-basket mini-trophies. In fact, Kira and I are working on them tonight while Kelsey and I work on dying discs. The entire house is like an art studio and I'm the master artist supervising all the worker bee artists. :D

For once I saw him acknowledge it - but I'm not sure the ramification has set in for Nick. Creating this new "Class" of player, or "opportunity" for competition is reliant on the VENUE being offered/available. Sort of like RB events - great idea - if you could only get someone to put the events on.

The notion that once it is offered - it will suddenly exponentially increase the numbers of players participating in organized DG - is the part people have trouble swallowing NK. If current organizers/TD's aren't willing to offer RB events because the players they cater to are afraid of or don't like the concept - who do you propose will be stepping up to run events for a class (and mass) of players that are as of yet unknown and untapped?

For once I saw him acknowledge it - but I'm not sure the ramification has set in for Nick. Creating this new "Class" of player, or "opportunity" for competition is reliant on the VENUE being offered/available. Sort of like RB events - great idea - if you could only get someone to put the events on.

The notion that once it is offered - it will suddenly exponentially increase the numbers of players participating in organized DG - is the part people have trouble swallowing NK. If current organizers/TD's aren't willing to offer RB events because the players they cater to are afraid of or don't like the concept - who do you propose will be stepping up to run events for a class (and mass) of players that are as of yet unknown and untapped?

Since I'm doing it I'd just like to say that my experience in Michigan suggests that offering a "true amateur class" does not seem to attract extra players or scare any away. By and large, the players who want to compete as true amateurs are the top advanced players. I don't know why but I assume it is because they don't need more discs as much as they need $30 in their pocket for gas and food. I suspect that if I paid the amateurs in gas and food, they'd all get in for prizes. A lot of these guys play a tournament every weekend and just don't need another frisbee, towel, shirt, hat or anything.

To me it just seems to be the right thing to do from a human perspective for several reasons, and I'd probably keep doing it even if there were five guys who said, "I'm not playing if everyone does not have to gamble."

Nick can't get past the semantics of this issue. He envisions some gigantic and completely unproven mass of new players that will suddenly enter formal competition simply if they are not competing for prizes. The vision he constantly presents on this board, at least as far as I can read it, is that there are many many many people waiting in the wings to play tourneys, but they just don't want to gamble.

I suppose it could be true.

I can accept calling people pros who neither earn a living at disc golf nor carry themselves in a professional manner on the course, because they play for cash. Nick just can not accept the PDGAs definition of Amateur and will sidetrack any discussion of competitive structure change with this inablility to get past a term.

Does that sum it up correctly Nick?



No it does not. It sums up how you feel about my thoughts though; and I appreciate you stating it in such clear terms.

I am not unable to get past a term. I find the use of the term �Amateur� inappropriate, yes; but it is the lack of a true amateur option that I cannot accept, not the misuse of the term.

As far as people waiting in the wings for an opportunity to join in on the fun of competitive disc golf, that is a fact not a topic for conjecture. They are there. Whether more Prize/Cash players or (certainly) amateur players, they are out there and we absolutely do want them to join in. What I refuse to accept is that we provide no organized option for the amateur sportspeople to join in. Particularly when it really is a matter as simple as deciding to go ahead and offer it.

Consider the evidence all around us that there is an untapped amateur demographic out there. A demographic that we have made little to no effort to attract, and even if we do we have no where that they can comfortably compete in terms they are comfortable with and accustomed to, amateur play. Every one of us has had some experience or another with amateur sport; Peewee Sporting leagues, Lower School Intramural Sports, Middle School Sports, High School Sports, College Sports, Bowling Leagues, Community Group Activities, Biking Clubs and Competitions, Soccer Leagues, Running Clubs and Competitions, Boating Clubs and Competitions, you name it and there is an organized form of competition for pure amateur sport.

All of these are potential sources for new amateur and professional PDGA members. IF, and it is a gigantic �if�, we are positioned to welcome them in and give them a familiar method of competition. In this case, and amateur method.

Rhett, you have a daughter, right? She plays disc golf, right? Are you completely at ease with the competitive options currently available to her within our competitive structure? Honestly?

Would an organized worldwide division of girls her same or similar age all competing for the pure and unadulterated joy of the community and game be something you would wish for her? Something you would wish for other kids? How about for you? Would you like to having divisions filled with players of your skill level and age? Now, how about for the PDGA membership?

Now throw in the ex-players in all of those other amateur sports. Would you be interested in adding them to the membership of the PDGA?

Another thing to consider is the potential for bring organizational talent in from those other amateur sports; Coaches, Fund Raisers, Community Support, Event Directors, Local business� already involved in supporting other amateur sports.

These are not pie in the sky dreams. They exist. And once we open our doors to them it will not take long before it is they who will be seeking us out.

I suspect that this will have some effect on our Prize/Cash divisions, certainly they will want and need protection from those that would undermine amateur play for personal profit, but the additional revenues generated by such a influx of players and resources would be substantial to our organization and the vendors and manufacturers of our sport that promote disc golf at the highest levels. Incomes for players like Barry Schultz, Ken Climo, and Stevie Rico along with perhaps a hundred or so other top players will certainly become more substantial. Perhaps even enough to live on.

The creation and nurturing of a real amateur class is absolutely vital to the development of a professional class (equally in need of being worthy of its name). One simply cannot flourish without the other. (Heck! One can�t even exist without the other�)

�Build it and they will come�� I�d be willing to guarantee it.

Now that sums up my thinking correctly.

PS: I do not wish to imply in any way shape or form, that what we have accomplished up to this point is chicken scratch. It most certainly is not. It has put us in a position of strength from which we can take on such and important task. And that it is correctly pointed out that getting the boulder in motion is the hardest part. Now we are ready to roll!

I can sum up your entire concept with a single word Nick - "nebulous".

Q. Where do these thousands of potential players exist?
NK. Everywhere!

Q. How do you propose that the PDGA tap into them and make them aware of this great sport?
NK. Offer them a familiar competitive venue/atmosphere - where they DO have to pay to play - but they DON'T compete for.........anything but the love of play.

It just doesn't quite jive Nick. If someone has never heard of Disc Golf, has never even contemplated the game, let alone competing in some fashion (and it is these folks you go to great lengths to describe) - by what mechanism will they be drawn to us and our organization?

What you suggest requires not only an infrastructure of VENUES to play at, but also a significant grass roots education of the masses. The EDGE program could be a great starting point - but if we as an organization are not promoting such a program FINANCIALLY - it will take many more years to reach the kinds of numbers you suggest.

I'm not being a naysayer Nick - only that your grand scheme has been presented in a gaseous form. As such - we can see it, we can talk about it, we can even smell it! But at this point - that's all there is - there's nothing in the way of a foundation to be built upon.

Rhett, you have a daughter, right? She plays disc golf, right? Are you completely at ease with the competitive options currently available to her within our competitive structure? Honestly?

Would an organized worldwide division of girls her same or similar age all competing for the pure and unadulterated joy of the community and game be something you would wish for her? Something you would wish for other kids?



I have no problems with the current competitive structure for my daughter. Honestly! There have never been any other girls for her to compete against here, but there were 2 or 3 under-12 boys she used ot beat at that age. There were 2 or 3 women playing in the Rec or Int Women's divisions, and there were 4 or 5 women playing in Advanced Women. Now that the Adv Women's division around here has dropped to 2 or 3, she can play Rec Men and not only not come in last but even win a trophy. It's fine by me.

Let me re-iterate: I have no problem paying an entry and having my little girl win some stuff when she does well.


As far as having a worldwide organization of girls for her to play again: Wow, man. That would be great. You mean if we simply stop awarding discs to ams for playing well, there will be full fields of girls not only in the USA but all over the world? Sign me up!
[sarcasm off]

The problem with small junior fields is something completely different than am payout. No need to get into that here, but stopping payout ot ams will, IMHO, do nothing to increase junior participation. Take a look around your local course and your next tourney. I think you know why parents are keeping their kids away from the courses in droves.

bla bla bla

whatever, this thread became boring.

Would an organized worldwide division of girls ... all competing for the pure and unadulterated joy of the community and game be something you would wish for her?

If they were all slayers too, that would be so cool.

We had 18 kids for league today but there was no talk of forming a worldwide organization. It was tough enough just to organize the 18.

On Nick's other point, in this area there is a 100-1 ratio of casual players to tournament players, and the fat side is growing. Many of these people are nowhere near good enough to compete in Am 3.

I remember when there was no Am 3 around here and everyone said it was not needed because there were no tournament players at that level. As soon as it was created those players started showing up.

Rhett,

You obviously have a blind spot as concerns my point. I am not saying stop paying out prizes to what we currently call ams. Let them have their winnings. They've never known anything else in organized disc golf and expect it.

What we need is an actual amateur class, and the sooner we get going on it, the sooner we can start the process of building an amateur class worthy of the name and in compliance with the concept of amateur play.

Craig, you just don't get it. And there is no reason to think you would. Your reality is completely based on your singular experience, which as concerns competitive disc golf does not include amateur play.

Brian, if you find this boring then don't read it. Pretty simple.

Bruce, I think you get it, I wish more folks did. Particularly organizers.

In the end, here, it is clear that Rhett and Craig see this as a threat to their slice of the pie. But they are not quite getting it. It's ok. Both are trees for the forrest types, but good folks none the less.

i must say i agree with nick and disagree with craig.
where are these 1000s of players? i see them all the time out at rockburn, seneca, patapsco and calvert. they are families, kids, college girls, friends. all just out playing to have fun. they GREATLY outnumber the amount of people who actually play in tournaments. i dare anyone to spend a day at their local course and keep a list of all the players who tee off on hole 1. ask them if they have ever played in a tournament. most will probably say they aren't good enough, or just play to have fun. i bet regular tournament payers are outnumbered AT LEAST 10-1. if you had a true amateur class, where you pay very little to play and could win a trophy, or maybe an amatuer league like bowling, maybe some of these players would join in. and as they got better, most likely some would turn out to be good, and join the ranks of the prize ams and pros. thus eveyone would get what they want. who should do this?
maybe not the pdga, although from what i understand ams FAR exceed the number of pro members. maybe a new organization needs to be formed if the pgda isn't interested. my .02
take it however you like, but be assured, the true ams ARE out there. someone just needs to invite them in.... :D

take it however you like, but be assured, the true ams ARE out there. someone just needs to invite them in.... :D



Finally someone saw the light!!!!!!

I'm not into the long winded posts like Nick is...I have a hard enough time holding a 2 minute phone conversation without getting bored. What he is proposing is not to do away with the status quo in Am disc golf right now, but instead offer an option to the newer golfers that would or could play if they had an option to not compete against what they consider "good golfers". Let's face it, most true "recreational" players can't keep up with the players that the PDGA has put in that division.

Waiting for the comments to come raining down.................once again :D

Every one of us has had some experience or another with amateur sport; Peewee Sporting leagues, Lower School Intramural Sports, Middle School Sports, High School Sports, College Sports, Bowling Leagues, Community Group Activities, Biking Clubs and Competitions, Soccer Leagues, Running Clubs and Competitions, Boating Clubs and Competitions, you name it and there is an organized form of competition for pure amateur sport.



The organizations listed above are all locally organized and funded. The PDGA could be a significant sponsor for such organizations, however it is not really the job for a pro sports organization to execute amatuer sports. I personally that the basket matching program is an excellent way to promote am disc golfing. Another positive thing might just be providing communities with help and tutoring on the subject of organizing leagues and tournaments.
Just a thought, and I don't think that disc golf, am or pro, is going anywhere but more and more popular no matter what we do.

People who play for fun.....play for fun.

People who play for fun.....play for fun.



Exactly! And those people will play in amateur competitions when they're good and ready. When you first start throwing the disc, it's fun to play against your friends and your own individual scores. Eventually, you move on to competing on an organized level, because nothing matches the tournament experience.

The amateur class will grow with disc golf, but we shouldn't force it. As the sport grows, so too will our competitions. And disc golf is good enough to sell itself!

My concern is that "pro-style" competition has taken us as far as it is going to. That the concept of "playing for each others entry fees" and "cashing" is so limited in scope that instead of getting and keeping PDGA members, they are on a perpetual track starting (usually) somewhere in the middle of our competitive structure and shooting right off the rails (and out of the sport) at the other end.

A completely different and NEW OPTION is needed; one that creates a substantive and meaningful gap between itself and our current competitive options (all of which are essentially the same). We don�t need to restrict or change how we run our current professional competitive structure to accomplish this. There is no need to force TDs to give out Players Packages, or pay out wider cuts to our current divisions. From Open Pro all the way to Recreational and Juniors, players have come to expect payouts to 33% - 50% of the field, and to rate the success of the event in the size of those payouts. There is no reason to try and fit that round peg into the square hole. Some may decide to switch to the NEW OPTION, but most will continue to play in the style of competition for which they are accustomed, the �pro-style� competition. (I�m not sure we need the 5 to 6 skill levels in the professional class, but that is another topic altogether.)

The NEW OPTION is for a far greater variety of players than just the 10 to 1 players who have never played in an organized event, though certainly they would be welcomed into it. It would be for College/High/Middle/Lower School conference competitions. It would be for Senior Citizen/Chuch/Community groups. It would be for Boy/Girl Scouts. A classification specifically designed and included in our official competitive structure JUST FOR THEM. It would provide them with a ready-made and in place structure for deciding community/state/region and national champions; a system that their organizations can plug directly into and be a part of. (This is a different though related concept than the INNOVA EDGE Program.)

It would be for Disc Golfers committed to the principle of not playing for personal financial gain but for the pure and undiminished joy of competitive disc golf. There are some, dare I say many, competing within our current singular competitive system that yearn for such and option; some quite skilled. For Profit/Cashing/Playing for Each Others Entry Fees disc golf is not for everyone. And it is not the ONLY form of COMPETITION (though perhaps the only option within our competitive system, so far).

The NEW OPTION is a real and vital AMATEUR CLASS.

(And yes, Craig and Rhett, perhaps this is a little nebulous, but before such an OPTION can be made practical, we must first take the step of deciding that it is worthwhile and that we commit to doing it. That is the stage we are at right now. The details will take some time to work out and finalize. The good thing is that we will not be starting from scratch. There are many many many experts at creating and maintaining amateur sport.)

A venue in Nebraska for Ams only is the Cornhusker State Games (http://www.cornhuskerstategames.com/index.sp). Fourteen divisions, medals to the first three places in each division. It draws a lot of those one-disc-wonders that want an introduction to disc golf competition and feel that the Professional Disc Golf Association is above their level. Their thoughts are that the PDGA, by its very name sake, is for professionals, of which these one-disc-wonders are not.

A perfect example of the problem at hand is a tournament I directed last year in a part of the state that has good representation for the State Games. Turnout was low for the C tier, and several people reported they were only interested in competition from an amateur perspective. They were either intimidated by the "professionals", or simply felt they were not welcomed because they prefer to compete in an Am class. The flyers clearly stated all the Am and Pro divisions avaialable, but this year the flyer will be more welcoming to Ams and/or recreational players.

You may feel that it's their (Ams) loss for not showing, but in the end the event lost potential players, and the PDGA lost potential members. It will take time grow, and the tournament will continue because the course is just too good to ignore.

And there's my 2�.

Now this I do agree with. There needs to be a new amateur area for competition that is outside the normal competitive divisions. Probably more aimed at league or team type play. Play for fun and trophies for minimal entry fees. I know that I was one of those players that watched, but never played tournaments for over 10 years. Once I started playing, I wished that I had started in tournaments right after I started playing.

This sounds very much like the situation with the Diamond State Games in Delaware that my friend runs. It is really tough to get players to sign up and I suspect it is for many of the same reasons you state.

Running such events is a great example of thinking on a bigger scale. I'd like to see a more support of such efforts on at least a regional level if not national. These folks are as much disc golfers as are the PDGA Tournament Players, and equally if not more valuable to the future of our sport.

I'm not saying that we should drop everything and rush off to cultivate this new demographic of disc golfers, only that we create a place for them at the table. Bring them into the brotherhood so to speak.

This, more than any other disc golf topic, gets my blood flowing and my mind racing. The upside is so huge as to be uncomprehensible (as illustrated by those that simply do not get it at all). Whether a part of what I hope becomes the "Players Disc Golf Association" or a new organization, the development of a True Amateur Class in disc golf will be a priority once I slow down on the PDGA competition side of the sport.

In North Carolina, our State Games is limited to Am players, its in the guidebook for the State Games.

State Games of North Carolina (http://www.ncsports.org/sgdetail.php?id=11)

Where are the standards for what an "Amateur" is? I didn't see them at the site.

Be interested in seeing them and if PDGA Amateurs qualify to play in the event.

I sent a note to my friend in the Parks and Rec. Will get back to you.

Nick,

My personal experience with the type of player you speak of - is generally that they like to play (some even love it and play very frequently) - but would prefer to do so in an unstructured environment (i.e. when you ask them if they're interested, or encourage them to come try a local event - they just say thanks but no thanks). This is counter to what you suggest is a prevalent attitude within this demographic.

As I said before - I am not being a naysayer - and if you truly have the energy for this idea that you have espoused - perhaps you can put some more concrete ideas into the necesssary foundations to make it happen. There's a difference between "not getting it" and expecting that any effort which obviously will require a significant infrastructure - be rooted in pragmatic terms.

So instead of just ignoring it - try and answer what I thought was a very simple and essential question. By what mechanism will the players you want to tap - be encouraged to transition from "casual" players, to "tournament" players?

I don't think the transition really needs to be from casual to tournament as from disorganized to organized. It's like the city softball league, some people really want to play, and they drag others into league with them. Something that promotes fun and ability for a an extended period. This would get more people out, and bring those that really like competing into the tournament scene.

My personal experience with the type of player you speak of - is generally that they like to play (some even love it and play very frequently) - but would prefer to do so in an unstructured environment (i.e. when you ask them if they're interested, or encourage them to come try a local event - they just say thanks but no thanks). This is counter to what you suggest is a prevalent attitude within this demographic.



Word!

By what mechanisms will the players you want to tap - be encouraged to transition from "casual" players, to "tournament" players?

You�re question assumes that casual players are my main targeted demographic when I have been quite clear and specific about who I am targeting. You need to re-read the parts of my posts concerning who I see as potential participants in an Amateur Class.

From one post ago:

The NEW OPTION is for a far greater variety of players than just the 10 to 1 players who have never played in an organized event, though certainly they would be welcomed into it. It would be for College/High/Middle/Lower School conference competitions. It would be for Senior Citizen/Church/Community groups. It would be for Boy/Girl Scouts. A classification specifically designed and included in our official competitive structure JUST FOR THEM. It would provide them with a ready-made and in place structure for deciding community/state/region and national champions; a system that their organizations can plug directly into and be a part of. (This is a different though related concept than the INNOVA EDGE Program.)



Another assumption in your question concerns �tournament players� and �tournaments�. It is here that I think that you find great difficulty in conceptualizing a different kind of �tournament player� from yourself, or event from what you have experienced. A player with an entirely different motivation for participating. In truth it is difficult for me to imagine it too, having been one kind of �tournament player� for 16 years. I am not talking about folks coming out to win stuff to verify to them that they played well; I�m talking about folks coming out and having their expectation of reward being to play well and enjoy the game in a community of similarly motivated folks.

I have some experience with this from participation in lower, middle and upper school sports, 4 Basketball Leagues, and actually organized disc golf in Japan (only one event paid out, the Japan Open, the rest are essentially true amateur events, maybe it�s there fault I got this idea in my head). Craig, you must have some experience along the way with amateur sport; Ultimate? Baseball? Something. Most of us have experienced �amateur sport� at one point or another; just not within organized disc golf.

And so, with �those� understandings of the demographic I am interested in attracting to our sport and �that� type of tournament player in mind I will describe for you the mechanisms I want to tap into PDGA Members and active disc golfers in their local and regional communities.

First Mechanism: Create a classification specifically for them � �The Amateur Class�
Second Mechanism: Provide organized divisions within existing and new PDGA events that accommodate them. (National Title Series and the like)
Third Mechanism: Have them organize themselves and attract even more of them to join in the fun.

I know that you were hoping for the Hillary Clinton Healthcare Reform phonebook version, but those are the essential mechanisms.

Again, I do not expect this to seem particularly familiar or logical to existing tournament players, but it should be quite familiar to the students experiencing the EDGE program, or playing football, soccer, baseball, etc after school.

An upside that current PDGA tournament players can possibly appreciate is the hundreds of thousands of dollars that will be added to our purses by advertisers and sponsors when instead of 20,000 members spending a couple million a year, we have 2,000,000 members spending tens of millions a year on disc golf. I�d imagine this would be a tad attractive to disc golf manufacturers and vendors as well.

In short, the mechanism for such a grand undertaking is the same as with other grand disc golf undertakings: the Professional Disc Golf Association.

(That and all that I can do to make it happen, which I like to think is one and the same.)

Craig, I think I know something about you. Please tell me if I am in error.

You as much as anyone understands that the greatest high in competitive disc golf is to play at your very best and not the prizes or money you win as a result.

I have only won a tiny fraction of the PDGA events you have, but I remember clearly that the greatest aspect of those wins was in the pressurized reality of competition; the heat of the battle so to speak. For me the awards ceremony, trophy, cash and pats on the back were good, don�t get me wrong, but they were like phantoms compared to the burning reality of playing at your best among your peers; both at the time and in remembrance.

Am I wrong about this or about you experiencing a similar phenomenon?

Taking out the cash and prizes is all I am talking about here, the rest is something you and I can completely relate to I believe. Competitive Disc Golf is the hook, not the stuff.

Am I wrong?

Well, I talked to my friend, and he does not know where the word Amateur is defined for the State Games.

But he told me that the guideline (rough) was you could not be a professional, again not defined. Sorry, I was really hoping I could find this in print. The 2 people who are running this event in Winston Salem are both active in the Disc Golf scene, and one is a active PDGA member, So it would be hard to "bag" the State Games. If I do come across the definition of Amateur in relation to the State Games, I will post it.

NIck,

I would agree with just about everything in your last post. Those are among the strongest reasons why I compete at all.

Your list of "mechanisms" in the previous post however - remain lacking in any practical terms for application. OK - so you answered the ?? about who it is you're trying to attract. Those are the folks who require first and foremost an education/introduction to DG as an activity - and then secondarily - the encouragement and desire to wish to participate in organized events. What are the mechanisms that will address those 2 primary issues?

You can't just say that the PDGA is the mechanism. The mechanism is that which will be implemented by the PDGA.

Example - PDGA pays Kenny and Juliana to do nothing but travel the country meeting with athletic and intramural directors at every college in the country - promoting installation of courses on college campuses, and introducing formats for friendly (non cash) style competitions. The intended result - mass exposure, more courses, and an introduction to the game and to competition. That would be an example of a mechanism to approach your objective. What would it take to make happen? Money and dedicated people as resources. Next question....... where does the money come from? Or more importantly - how much money and how many people would it take to actually be effective? And where do you focus those resources? Do you focus in places like CA, MI, OH, where there are an abundance of courses? Or do you focus in areas where there are very few?

Having this sort of plan well thought out, complete with options, and suggestions for tieing it into the existing (or some new) format of competitive venue - is what I am suggesting is necessary for your grand scheme to escape its current nebulous reality.

Having this sort of plan well thought out, complete with options, and suggestions for tieing it into the existing (or some new) format of competitive venue - is what I am suggesting is necessary for your grand scheme to escape its current nebulous reality.



Actually, Craig, and I suspect that you know this as well as I, well thought out plans do not just pop out of the ground. The first step actually is what I am doing here, generating enough interest in those, like yourself, that have the know-how and action oriented attitude to decide that this is something worth doing. Once that is done "a well thought out plan" can begin to form. (i.e. your excellent idea about touring ambassadors introducing the PDGA to educational institutions around the country)

First we decide if we want to do it.
Then we decide how to best do it.
Then we do it.

I've heard rumblings from the PDGA BOD that plans are being formulated. I'd sure like to be a part of that (at whatever level), the key is to get a good foundation. Once that is set, it will be very difficult to go too wrong with it.

Why does Victor keep posting the same message over and over? :


*** You are ignoring this user ***


:p ;) :D

Nick,

My personal experience with the type of player you speak of - is generally that they like to play (some even love it and play very frequently) - but would prefer to do so in an unstructured environment (i.e. when you ask them if they're interested, or encourage them to come try a local event - they just say thanks but no thanks). This is counter to what you suggest is a prevalent attitude within this demographic.

As I said before - I am not being a naysayer - and if you truly have the energy for this idea that you have espoused - perhaps you can put some more concrete ideas into the necesssary foundations to make it happen. There's a difference between "not getting it" and expecting that any effort which obviously will require a significant infrastructure - be rooted in pragmatic terms.

So instead of just ignoring it - try and answer what I thought was a very simple and essential question. By what mechanism will the players you want to tap - be encouraged to transition from "casual" players, to "tournament" players?



Pardon the thread drift but I had a thought about Craig's post. Although I know Nick has now defined a class of player to work on, I actually think the class Craig has defined is an interesting and important class to think about.

Obviously, if we could attract this class we have a huge source of potential players. The question is how do you entice them, can you entice them, and how do you keep them interested if you do entice them? What is it about the current structure they don't like? Even if they simply like playing casually and with no competitive structure how do you get them to contribute?

Keep in mind that these "casual" players play on courses in parks that are fought for, set up by, and maintained by a lot of players at some cost. Don't those casual players have some obligation to contribute? That is why I first joined our local club. I knew I was getting a huge benefit for nothing. I joined simply to donate some money to that effort.

My experience is that there is always a way to get those casual players involved. For example, the guy who got me started is a staunch casual player. I worked on him and convinced him that the cost of membership in the local club was to his benefit (using the same logic I used on myself). Then I convinced him to play in the biggest local event once a year as a lifetime experience. That is enough for him and he is happy doing those two things. He is still a casual player but now he contributes. He also joined the PDGA (I paid the first year but he reuped). He isn't contributing a huge amount but 1000 players at the same level adds up.

I'm not saying this is the way to get all "casual players" involved; simply that we should consider the topic for the betterment of the sport.

The question we need to ask is why do these guys play and can we create an event that links into that need/desire? This is why I like events like Worlds Greatest. My friend (mentioned above) plays it every year. He likes the casual atmosphere, and he gets to meet other players without the risk associated with a PDGA event. In this event the PDGA has recreated the casual atmosphere this player likes and thrives under. Could we not design a series and market it similarly to Worlds Greatest? Would it be worth doing and would it tap into the casual player? Finally, I'm not absolutely sure that Nick's proposed amateur class might not be attractive to the casual player; because of its differences from standard PDGA events it might tap into that casual atmosphere they desire.

Again, sorry for the thread drift. :)

Major thread drift - but I'll talk to the LAASS. Your last post didn't pose any question - what sort of answer do you expect.

I already agreed that if pro2 is just another divisional "option" to be thrown in along with other protected divisions - it's a waste of time. Happy? dgusa said he has run events - what about you aclown? To be honest - when I started playing tournaments (back when you were still suckling probably) - I didn't like the way things were being run. Did I complain about it> NO - I went out - built my own course - and ran my own tournaments. Lesson for the young and aggressive - don't like something DIY baby - DIY (that's do it yourself for the younguns)

NIck - at least I hope you are starting to see my point. I'm not bashing your idea - just saying that if it had some more substance/guts/details - then there would be more to sink our teeth into.

You've been hammering this idea of the true am class for well over a year now Maybe 2 or 3 for all I know. But it's sorta like the sportsloop deal - until someone went out and solicited services, worked through negotiating terms, etc - there was nothing tangible for the BOD or the membership to approve or reject. If you want people behind your idea - you need a PLAN for how to make it work. Without it - it's just a passing cloud - only so much you can get from it (or give to it).

Missing the point aclown - I didn't say I liked the sportsloop deal - only that before entering into it someone had to do a bunch of work. Most of you don't realize that the PDGA took most of the 90's to actually get to the point where they were willing to take that risk - they had been talking about it since 91/92.

aclown - just curious - is that your picture? and are you actually interested in exchanging ideas with other people who give a dam - or do you just like bichin?

Ignore him Craiger, it will delay the carpal tunnel from settin in! :eek:

<font color="green">And Craig, I will return to my methodology of first discussing and building support for the main general idea of creating a True Amateur Class within our PDGA Competitive Structure before setting anything in stone. Perhaps we just have different methodologies. Both seem to get things done at some level, mine is perhaps more reliant on the efforts and cooperation of others than just doing something yourself (which is an impossibility when faced with a task such as the introduction of an entirely new and different class of players).

I will, however, follow your advice and design a more tangible model for everyone�s consideration, but don't be overly annoyed if I ask for input and ideas from others. You being one of them (so long as you don't constantly point out that I have an incomplete plan, for which I am well aware and working on changing that fact) I'm also going to try and take the temperature of interest by the PDGA BOD as well (as mentioned I've heard that they might be working on this already, makes sense that they would be).

And again, to put current PDGA amateurs at easy, my proposal will not directly effect the nature of your competitions, other than possibly stripping it of it's inappropriate name and replacing it with a better more suitable name.

Look for more soon, if interested, if not use the "ignore" feature. ;)</font>

Where are the standards for what an "Amateur" is? I didn't see them at the site.

Be interested in seeing them and if PDGA Amateurs qualify to play in the event.



On the website, it states a Olympic-style competition. So I guess that the definition is taken from the olympic definition of an amateur.
And yes PDGA Ams can play this event. And apparently it is held in high regard. Several of our local ams are looking forward to competing in this event. No payout, one disc for entering, and 1st, 2nd, 3rd, place medals is it! I am going to this event, not to play, but to help/watch. If you are still interested, I'll give you my review of the event.

That sounds exactly like the Diamond State Games, though this year my friend is adding a Pro division and even kicking in some money.

Now you have me wondering about Olympic standards. They seem to have been loosened substantially in the last decade with NBA, MLB, and pros in almost every sport competing in them.

Maybe you can get Ken Climo to compete! :D

PDF of olympic rules (http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_122.pdf)

Page 71, lists the elegibility requirements.

Seems like they throw eligibility requirements back on the individual sports governing body. In this case I guess the PDGA.

pro 2 is for people like you who cannot make it in the open division.so you should not fight it and just try your best.

I wish I had an extra set of hands so I could give this Pro 2 Division four thumbs down. <font color="orange"> </font>

Have you heard of the CBA? I'ts a minor league for the NBA and many players make the jump to the NBA.

I agree with the original poster that Pro 2 was not a good name for that division. We already had the Silver division in ratings events that brings the same people together. But it wasn't the first misnamed division. As Nick so willingly points out, Advanced is not an Am division under existing payout practices. I think many GM/Master/Open Pros with ratings under 960 should consider moving up to the higher paying other "pro division" (Advanced) to play for much larger payouts.

I will say I look forward to playing Pro 2 at Animalfest and hopefully other events with Pro 2 or Silver divisions. It was fun playing Master Pro in Athens, GA this past weekend since it had no one over 955 making it like Silver or Pro 2 by default. No Open or Master player will lose any money from my entry fees when I play Pro 2 because I wouldn't have played the events otherwise.

So, even though a competition system is about providing a way for players to achieve against the best competitors, it's also about participation. If you have one division, you always know who the best is at each event but fewer and fewer compete. If you have events with too many divisions, more may participate but it starts to dilute the quality of achievements. The PDGA is charged with continuing to provide the best balance of competition and participation and testing Pro 2 is part of that process.

I had the pleasure of playing in my first Pro 2 division at a PDGA event and let me tell you it is the single greatest decision by our governing body. After years of yearning, I finally had the chance to play with the Pro Masters of roughly the same skill range. I finally got to play with Advanced Masters of roughly the same skill range. And of course, I got to play against the "normal gaggle" of guys that I usually share the bottom cards with at Open tournaments. After so many Open tournaments where I was continually strokes away from last place cash, I finally had the opportunity to play above that cash line and eventually even move onto the leader card. The emotions and excitement I experienced on a leader card is something I have not had the pleasure to do since I left Advanced several years ago!

We played for only slightly more than one-half of the Open entry fee, a relatively low-stakes $40. Even though the number of entrants in Pro 2 outweighed the number of Open division entrants, the latter paid much more handsomely due to the added cash. I'm perfectly fine with that! I have no problems with the big stakes going to the more talented golfers; Pro 2 isn't about winning big money, it's about having a place where I can compete against golfers of my same skill level.

The Pro 2 format is simply pure genious. It allows highly skilled amateur golfers to play in a more competitive division and accept merchandise in order to maintain amateur status. This structure also FORCES amateurs above 960 to play in the Pro 2 division and prevent sandbagging in the Advanced division. For the Pro 2 golfers that accept money, no one can continue to dominate the division for very long, because they will likely need to shoot rounds greater than 970 to win the division. As they do this, their player rating will rise and eventually exceed 960 and they will no longer qualify for play in the division.

Everyone I talked to seemed to agree on the success of the format. I think the PDGA has taken an extremely important step in retaining 920-960 rated Professional players. Personally, I can attest that where my future tournament committment was once in doubt, I now have a bright new future. The Pro 2 division gives me a training ground to compete and improve so that hopefully some day I can attain our highest skilled division, while in the process I'm still competitive and not just "donating" large sums in entry fees to my higher skilled golfing buddies. I will be extremely disappointed, if much like ratings-based events, the Pro 2 division does not catch on and is not soon offered at the majority of tournaments. So much thanks to Tournament Director Dan Doyle for pioneering this Pro 2 division in our region!

sounds like PRO 2 was a huge SUCCESS in your AREA. Did you win?

i'd have to disagree.

i'd have to disagree.



That's perfectly fine if you explain why, Kev!

it's arbitrarily based. it tends away from a competitive system.

I think I know why Jeff. you will be taking away payout to the top OPEN players and now the players that are usually above the pro2 guys are now on the BOB card. :D

less protection, not more. disc golf tournaments, not disc golf activities.

When will Pro 3, 4, and 5 get started up. That way everyone can win. lol

When will Pro 3, 4, and 5 get started up. That way everyone can win. lol



The future is now. Pro 3, 4, and 5 are called Bronze, White and Red at any R-tier, and I suppose Pro 6 and 7 are Green and Purple if there are pros with those ratings.

Kelsey cashed in Pro 4 [Men's Am 3] this weekend at an unsanctioned event but will need to negotiate with me if she wants to convert those large plastic tokens to US currency.

When will Pro 3, 4, and 5 get started up.



Pro 3 is currently called Advanced.

Pro 2 truly is just another tiny step toward pure rating based competition. It's amazing the membership is so scared about just switching over. Or the leadership is so scared that the membership couldn't handle it. Or what ever the deal is. It's not that big a deal, and every body wins. I don't mean every body wins like there's 10000 divisions and every body wins some where. I mean every body wins like it's a competition structure that actually makes sense.

I agree with Jeff that it seemed to work well. The 3 comments I would offer are:

1) Having an advanced division and a Pro2 division is VERY redundant since all of their ratings are between 930ish and 960 (except for all of the intermediate layers playing up in advanced, which I heard was about 85% of the advanced field). Seems like it would be better to have Open, Pro2/Silver, Bronze and White. Without Bronze (930 to 900 golfers) the Pro2/Silver division would be way too big.

2) I know of at least 4 Masters aged players who did not come specifically because of Pro2 and no Masters division. I see no reason that a Pro Masters Division could not be offered at the same time as Pro2. Pro Master players with really low ratings could choose to play in the Masters or Pro2 (or even Bronze, aka Intermediate) if they choose. I think this would improve participation and take care of an important sector of our player base (not to mention a fast growing one).

3) The payout structure still needs a lot of careful consideration. It is a little discouraging, and perhaps harmful to the overall impression of such divisional set ups, when Open players who play lights out, beating the top Pro2 players by 10 strokes, get to split $80 with three other players, while the top Pro2 player gets $250. It's tough not to see such a thing as anything but sandbagging (though I don't think it is, the appearance is hard to deny).

I mean, imagine a 980 golfer working their tail off to compete with the best players in the world and their cash at PDGAs for the year amounts to $800 in 12 events, while a Pro2 player could make that much in half the events. I'm not sure how to work this out, but here are a few thoughts:

A) Reduce the entry fee even further (which could possibly increase attendence even more).
B) Pay out a far far greater % of the players in these divisions. (which could possibly increase attendence even more).
C) Allow TDs to decide the exact form of these payouts, not just prizes to ams and cash to pros, but let them award prizes or a mix of prizes and cash to even the "pro" players. This would help the TD to move more merch for their local clubs and create at least a little more distinction between open divisions and skill protected ones.

OK, I guess you are not Victor.

Nick, Do your fingers ever get tired? :D

i guess i should start giving up after a horrendous first round.

Maybe the deeper payout would be enough to waterdown the winner's payout and encourage participation. But there is not much you can do to keep the winner of a lower division from winning more than the last place cash of the higher division.

When will Pro 3, 4, and 5 get started up. That way everyone can win. lol



Look at the PDGA Player Ratings (http://www.pdga.com/player_ratings.php?offset=1600&division=MPO&order=rating). There are simply not enough professional golfers with ratings that would warrant Pro 3,4 and 5 divisions, and they are scattered around the country. There is a clear need for the 1,000+ golfers whom a Pro 2 division is appropriate for.

seewhere, while your humor leaves a lot to be desired :), you do happen to make a point. pro 2 seems to create a much more bare-boned, competitive open division. less players, less money, maximum cost. the spread between first and last cash was 11 strokes. it's much higher than that on the national tour even (probably averages around 20 strokes).

thanks :D

sounds like PRO 2 was a huge SUCCESS in your AREA.



I'm not getting any traction with Pro 2, but I've been offering it on Saturday opposite Open, Pro Master and Advanced on Sunday. Where it is succeeding I'm assuming it is being offered in lieu of Advanced?

I was hoping that some of the players who have moved up and moved out might come back for Pro 2. Maybe they are so far out they can't read the flyers from there.

do 959 rated players really need the protection from 961 rated players?

where is the 960 to 990 division if it's going in increments of 30?

I agree with Jeff that it seemed to work well. The 3 comments I would offer are:

1) Having an advanced division and a Pro2 division is VERY redundant since all of their ratings are between 930ish and 960 (except for all of the intermediate layers playing up in advanced, which I heard was about 85% of the advanced field). Seems like it would be better to have Open, Pro2/Silver, Bronze and White. Without Bronze (930 to 900 golfers) the Pro2/Silver division would be way too big.



Since you pointed out that Advanced is mostly Intermediate golfers that play up, it is not appropriate to take away Advanced and force them to possibly compete against 940-960 rated Pro 2 golfers. What is far more redundant is offering a Masters division when Pro 2 is offered, imo.



2) I know of at least 4 Masters aged players who did not come specifically because of Pro2 and no Masters division. I see no reason that a Pro Masters Division could not be offered at the same time as Pro2. Pro Master players with really low ratings could choose to play in the Masters or Pro2 (or even Bronze, aka Intermediate) if they choose. I think this would improve participation and take care of an important sector of our player base (not to mention a fast growing one).



These are very skilled Pro Masters who have grown accustomed to beating up on their 930-960 rated Masters players. These Pro Masters should be competing in Open, where their ratings put them, and are just sour grapes because their gravy train could be eliminated. From what I am told, Pro Masters is still very popular according to PDGA surveys and I can't imagine the PDGA would make such an unpopular decision such as eliminating Pro Masters, even though Pro 2 makes it redundant, imo.



3) The payout structure still needs a lot of careful consideration. It is a little discouraging, and perhaps harmful to the overall impression of such divisional set ups, when Open players who play lights out, beating the top Pro2 players by 10 strokes, get to split $80 with three other players, while the top Pro2 player gets $250. It's tough not to see such a thing as anything but sandbagging (though I don't think it is, the appearance is hard to deny).I mean, imagine a 980 golfer working their tail off to compete with the best players in the world and their cash at PDGAs for the year amounts to $800 in 12 events, while a Pro2 player could make that much in half the events.



All the added cash went to the Open divisions! However, the Open division had 16 entrants and paid 7, while the Pro 2 division had 22 entrants and paid 9. As Seewhere pointed out, there are going to be newly BOB Open players that do not cash and will be sour on those in Pro 2 that do. Taking a quick look at the results, cashing Pro 2 players played at their player ratings or above, while non-cashing Open players played 15-20 points below their 970-980 ratings.



I'm not sure how to work this out, but here are a few thoughts:

A) Reduce the entry fee even further (which could possibly increase attendence even more).
B) Pay out a far far greater % of the players in these divisions. (which could possibly increase attendence even more).
C) Allow TDs to decide the exact form of these payouts, not just prizes to ams and cash to pros, but let them award prizes or a mix of prizes and cash to even the "pro" players. This would help the TD to move more merch for their local clubs and create at least a little more distinction between open divisions and skill protected ones.



I'm all for A & B. It's not about winning money to me, it's about fair competition. I'll gladly pay $20-30 to win little more than that back. I'm not in favor of C: one of the reasons that I went Pro in the first place was that I no longer desired to play for undesirable plastic, t-shirts, and other merchandise. Many of the competitors in the Pro 2 division will be older Pros and Masters players that have been playing for money for decades and don't desire merch either.

1) Having an advanced division and a Pro2 division is VERY redundant since all of their ratings are between 930ish and 960 (except for all of the intermediate layers playing up in advanced, which I heard was about 85% of the advanced field). Seems like it would be better to have Open, Pro2/Silver, Bronze and White. Without Bronze (930 to 900 golfers) the Pro2/Silver division would be way too big.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since you pointed out that Advanced is mostly Intermediate golfers that play up, it is not appropriate to take away Advanced and force them to possibly compete against 940-960 rated Pro 2 golfers. What is far more redundant is offering a Masters division when Pro 2 is offered, imo.



Wait, let me get this straight, it is appropriate for Masters and Open players with ratings in the 915 to 960 range to play in the Pro2 division but not for Advanced players with the exact same ratings to do the same!?! Jeff, you can't be serious, can you? How is it more fair for a 930 Master player to play Pro2 than a 955 Advanced player?

That just doesn't make a smidge of sense.

Kev, that is a pretty interesting question. If Chuck or Rodney or Jason happen across this thread perhaps they could share the rationale for leaving these 960 to 990 golfers to the wolves while offering protection to 930 to 960 golfers?

As I recall, the demographic for PDGA members between 960 and 1040 is relatively small in comparison to the one between 900 and 960. If another division were placed in that range (960 to 990) the already shrinking Open division would be decimated.

Thinking top down 980 or 970 always seemed to make more sense to me.

The thing for me is this: I do not think that entry/payout can be manipulated so that all of these divisions can fit together in any logical way(unless a big influx of $$$ is secured). Pandora�s box has been opened (all divisions and classifications needing to "cash")and it may never be closed. Folks love their payouts. Even with skill ranges, payouts are uncomfortably illogical to all but those winning them. But here again, we have been indoctrinated to think that folks must win or win something to remain interested in competitive disc golf. This completely in spite of examples of other sports being able to maintain and grow substantially larger player bases than ours by attracting folks PRIMARILY on expectation of great EXPERIENCE and very little concern for making a buck.

Jeff,

One last thing; consider this: I have been playing in the Open division since 1989 with no other option. Like your experience in this Pro2 division, it has been only on rare occasion at PDGAs that I have had an opportunity to experience the excitement you just did. You have waited how many years for that? 15?

Your words come off as brash and antagonistic, and well, just unthinking. These players have been top competitors in their prime (the ones who didn�t come) and are still (like you in this new Pro2 division) excited and pleased to have a division in which they can feel like they are in the hunt. (not to mention that any one of them would wipe the floor with you). To in one sentence extol the merits of Pro2 and how it gives you an opportunity to compete again (after 2 years or something) while in the next rail against the evils of Masters is hypocritical, don�t you think?(believe me, I know, I used to do it myself)

Approaching masters age now as I am, I can see more clearly the need for it. All the things that fell on my deaf ears a few years back now are a physical reality. These realities simply cannot be piffed away.

How this will all be worked out is anyone�s guess; mine is that it will involve a one track pro divisional system with key age and gender considerations and the creation of a true amateur class.

Pro2 as I see it is a step in that direction, a patch on player exodus (which from my experience just created a leak in another area of our player base). Pro 2 IS SILVER DIVISION. It�s no secret that I support ratings based events and Pro2 being a step in that direction is a good thing in my view. But until we resolve the lack of an amateur class, and the multiple tracks of same skill level pro divisions (in which I include Intermediate, Advanced and Masters) an uncomfortable ill feeling none of us can quite put our finger on will prevail and the word �sandbagger� will be easy off our tongue.

Rail against the evil of Masters? I did no such thing, Nick. All I pointed out is that highly skilled Masters players have just as much chance at cashing in Open. 970 and 980 rated Masters-aged golfers have just as much chance at playing on the leader card as you or any other Open caliber golfer. Now it's just not a given, as opposed to before, where it was almost certain that the lesser skilled Masters were donating to these guys.

Earth to Nick: It's a moot point, the PDGA will likely not do away with Master's divisions because that is what people want. The Pro 2 division was offered at the Great Northwest Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4373#Pro%202) in Roseburg, OR in addition to Masters and most still chose the latter.

i had a hearty laugh at the "pittance" the pro2s were playing for...$250 for "first?" that ain't no small potatoes. i propose january to be reshuffling, amnesty month for disc golf. anyone can return to amateur for the year...anyone.

i agree that an amateur division is essential to the sport, however since that seems to be unpopular, i propose a protection tax. 50% of protected entry fees goes into the competitive fields...open men and open women (open being the important word there.) protection costs money in real life, why not disc golf?

any pdga member that hasn't played a pdga for one full year automatically is returned to amateur status. he or she may still choose to play pro...but a choice is there.

yes, masters is protected--all fees apply. look, they're old, they'll probably forget it happened anyway.

the tax could easily be made into a cap on what a particular division can make depending on how big the field.

if you want to play a disc golf competition, enter a competitive division. if you want to play against people of similar age, skill, smell, whatever...you pay for the privilege.

any thoughts on that?

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