(Didn't know whether to put this under Courses, Course Design, Players or what. Spare us the obligatory "How is this a PDGA topic," posts, please.)

Okay, first of all, I don't want to have to tread lightly here, because I'd like to speak my mind, without having to worry about pizzing off my friends.

In order to do this, everyone is gonna have to understand that I have nothing but LOVE for my Texas golfing friends and respect for them and the courses they play, and the designers and cities that build them. I don't wanna have to dance around these issues to get to my point, so this is the preemptive disclaimer to insure those who read the following that I'm not dissing Texas golfers (some of whom are my best friends and teammates) and that not all of them fall into the problem I'm addressing.

That out of the way, and with fingers crossed that the angy PM�s don�t start rolling in, there�s something that�s been bugging me.

There�s a mindset here, in Texas, that while not totally pervasive, is a prevailing thought process for a lot of golfers I meet in our state. If a course is not filled with holes that can be 2�d or 3�d, they don�t wanna play it as much. I�m not saying they don�t appreciate them, I�m saying they don�t play them.

Spare me the b.s. about, �I love longer courses, I hate too many birdie holes�yada yada yada.� If that were the case, then why aren�t Round Rock, Cameron East, Circle R, and other par 60+ courses filled with golfers all the time? Why don�t you go there to play when you wanna go play casually or practice?

Here�s the point I�m trying to make. When I read the names on the top of the score listings for national competitions, I can�t help but notice that states like North Carolina, Oregon, Iowa, Wisconsin, (and the list goes on), consistently are turning out more top finishers than the state with more courses and more tournament players than any other state in the union.

Anyone wanna guess why that is? Well, I�ll take a stab at one reason (you knew I was gonna).

Many of these states are turning out better golfers because the courses they come up on are more difficult, more challenging and often longer than what we typically play around here. Because of this, you have golfers from other regions who understand that 4�s and 5�s happen and that the challenge of tougher courses is part of the game, instead of a bunch of golfers who will opt to go to a shorter course around here where they can walk away feeling better about themselves.

Does it bug any of my other fellow Texicans that we don�t see nearly the number of top finishers in NT�s and majors as you would think we should with the per capita number of golfers we have? This was especially evident on the World�s courses in Iowa, which were by any standard, amazing. (Keep in mind if you're gonna bring up the good finishes of 3 particular Houstonians, that one look at the long and challenging Tom Bass courses they play regularly, kinda makes my point for me here.)

If The Beast, Old Settlers, Temple, The Wilmont and the Circle R courses were the only courses in Texas, I bet that would change.

For my part, I admit that the only design work I currently have in the ground is short, due to the availibility of space (I do realize this is a problem) and the one I�m working on right now will have similar space constraints. I�m not bashing any courses or turning a blind eye to room considerations.

My problem is that we have a few courses that could turn out better young golfers, and yet they get less play than the ones that offer less challenge to us to better our own games. It�s a mindset that I�m just tired of hearing.

So, I guess what I wanna know is, do you guys think that the existence of more challenging golf courses is the reason why other states with fewer tournament players are churning out more top notch young golfers, or is it something in the water. ;)


(If you�re gonna bash me for this post, bash me for the content on hand, not because you think I�m being an ***.)

your fellow texans should thank you for trying to improve the level of play, not bash you for pointing out the lack of top finishers. i've played golf in the dallas ft worth area as well as all over austin and my overwhelming impression of disc golf in texas was one of quantity, not quality. will add that i've never had the opp to play in houston.

i'm sure texas has a golf course equivalent to the best in michigan or north carolina or wisconsin, i just never played it i guess.

no state has a lock on players that are satisfied with easy birds and pars, but i can't imagine anyone that is part of that group having the mental toughness to play 8 rounds or more on courses that require you to dig deep and stay focused once you realize you aren't in a spot to pick up a bird or easy par on every hole.

I would have to say Michigan California Oregon and North Carolina produce more of the best disc golfers in the world then the rest of the country combined.

Im from MI and the courses we have around here arent pitch and PUTT. I dont understand who would EVER want to just play courses where you can take easy 2 and for sure 3s on EVERY hole. Thats not fun. I myself and i know ALL my friends that play tournaments with me would rather go to a great course thats hard and has great holes and shoot well then go to a pitch and putt course and shoot 12 down every time. That to me is BORING. You never get any better and you do the SAME thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. I LOVED the courses in Iowa for Worlds. Amazing courses. Those are the types of course that on some holes you have to go in saying ok this is not a par its a good 4 maybe even a 5. If you couldnt except some bogies and doubles and just know that they said par 3 but really werent then you didnt do very well. Smart golf out there was key. Thats what made it such a great worlds. ALL the courses had a wide range of scores. If you played smart and were on you could be under par but if you were off and played stupid you could shoot WAY WAY over par.

I do agree with you that challenging and quality courses produce better and smarter players. If people played in a park that was wide open and flat with no wind and there were teepads and baskets and all you had to do was throw a Hyzer with a Roc/Wasp all day and be under the basket you would NEVER get any better. You might get **** good at throwing Rocs/Wasps on a hyzer but you would never learn to be a good putter or driver.

If you play courses that are challenging and have alot of different types of holes you will become a better player. Plain and simple if you can get good on a HARD course then you will be good anywhere.

Finally if those people are choosing to play the easy courses instead of the AMAZING and HARD courses you guys have then they dont have any desire to place well at NTs or Supertours or Majors and thats their choice. I would consider myself LUCKY if all the people around here didnt play are challenging courses. Then i could go out and practice on them without having to worry about CASUALS all the time. I would play them ALL day long and make myself the best golfer around. Thats what you have to do. Dont worry about what the rest of your state is doing go out and pass them up. If they wanted to finish well they would play the tougher courses and get better.

Thats just my opinion i could be wrong :D

This reminds me of something Ron Russell said to a friend a few years back, "You don't get better PLAYING golf, you get better PRACTICING golf." I think you need to play the caliber courses just for the experience of having to play certain lines, but that's where it ends. You should see my home course; a piddly nine hole pitch-n-putt with boxed limestone teepads! All the courses around me are pitch-n-putt's. So where have I become a better golfer at? The practice field and putting green. I don't think you can make a reason for a lack of quality players as simple as the lack of play on caliber courses. I think it all comes down to personal motivation. If you want to challenge yourself and become better you will, no matter where you are or where you play.

I agree. Better courses make better golfers. Better courses make you think about what you are doing. If all you see is 200-300 foot holes you are probably going to get good at birdies. That's great but what have you learned from it? You've probably gotten good w/ midranges and putters. That's cool. 300 ft control shots are an important skill . What happens when you get up to a hole in a tourney that's 700 ft long w/ a pond on the right and a 20 mph headwind or a 250ft hole that plays like its 450 because of the elevation change? Are you going to pull out your midrange or your putter off the tee? I hope not. Not if you want to be in contention. Playing tougher courses teaches you skills that you can't get from pitch and putt or sometimes even on the practice field. You have to experience these sorts of shots to play them effectively. To experience them you have to play courses that force you to make them.

I'm not saying to play all the time and don't practice driving on an open field or putting. Practice driving. Practice putting. But also play the most challenging disc golf courses available to you to learn how to play smart. There are holes out there where par is extremely hard to get for even the top pros. It is better to have some experience with courses like that where you have learned to play for par and be happy with it instead of going all out for the birdie, playing poorly because you are trying too hard, and ending up with a double because you took to risky a route and got caught.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong. I personally prefer bigger courses to make me think and focus on my game than "deuce or die". That's why I pretty much always play the pro pads on my home courses. Once you do that, the short pads dont seem anywhere near as hard.

One thing I noticed while at worlds is that all but one of the "advanced" am players from the Tri-State (NY, NJ, CT) area ended up in the J Pool (bottom). Iowa kicked our collective azzes and hopefully taught us all a little lesson. I guess we need not better courses, but harder courses.

If The Beast, Old Settlers, Temple, The Wilmont and the Circle R courses were the only courses in Texas, I bet that would change.





I can't believe you didn't mention any of the world class courses in the DFW area :D


Actually, with the exception of Old Settler's, the courses you listed are relatively new. They were designed after the influx of these new high speed drivers.

Think of Lucy Park in WF. It was a great course when all you had were Kitty Hawks, and Aero's. Once the Scorpion and the Eclipse came out, all of the holes were reachable, and the course became a pitch and putt :D

Even Veteran's Park from the concrete tee pads has become (do i dare say it) easier. In the days of the Scorpion and Cyclone, even par was difficult!!!!!! Yesterday, Mike Grider and myself tied for 1st with a -7. Seven under par was impossible 10 years ago!!!

I have heard nothing but greatness about Iowa's courses. Is it because they were designed after the sport has seen the caliber of players and equipment that we have today?

Interesting Mark. Better courses probably do make better golfers, but after debating this topic ad nauseum on the way back from Iowa, I've concluded it is only part of the story. My suspicion is that it is only a minor factor.

Given the amount of golfers we have, Texas has always underachieved. Even when we did have tough courses relative to the rest of the country, we still underachieved.

I think the phenomenon of hotbeds and coldbeds is strange. Besides courses, I think more important factors are the existence of other top golfers who raise everyone's play and the existence of top players who can teach/mentor well. I think that is a better explanation of the California, NC and Wisconsin phenomenon than courses.

ps. I know this will **** off some, but the wide-spread belief that a wide-open, trouble free course is world class because of its length is an indication of Texas' problems. But the real problem with Texas golfers is that instead of practicing, our best players add a bunch of pounds and start jigglin around in their thongs. :D What kind of example is that? :p

But the real problem with Texas golfers is that instead of practicing, our best players add a bunch of pounds and start jigglin around in their thongs. What kind of example is that?





......and having babies......LMAO! :D:D:D

This reminds me of something Ron Russell said to a friend a few years back, "You don't get better PLAYING golf, you get better PRACTICING golf." I think you need to play the caliber courses just for the experience of having to play certain lines, but that's where it ends.



I agree in theory and disagree in reality.

The theory is that to be good at any sport, you need to practice and practice and practice to perfect the fundamentals.

The reality that I have observed in playing a fair amount of sports is that people want to have fun and not do the tedious work of perfecting the fundamentals. I played a lot of soccer and noticed that most of my teammates would practice shooting all day (fun), but would not practice trapping and controlling a pass (boring). The reality is that if you can't trap the ball in a game situation, you will seldom be able to unleash that well-honed shot you have developed.

Disc Golfers that I observe practice by playing. So, the reality is that if you play on harder courses with varied throws required, you will play better. In reality, better courses do make better players.

One thing I have heard said that I buy into big time is that you need to master specific throws, not specific holes.

For me, downhill straight tunnel shots perplex me. I never know what disc to throw or how to throw it. We don't have any of those type holes in Charlotte, but there are several of those holes on courses in a 3-4 hour radius that I play at times. My advice to myself is to find a hill near my house and work on that skill.

I recall Texas representing well at last years am worlds. What has changed since then?

Perhaps it's the course designers who are better in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Georgia and North Carolina? (That's just for Houck :D)

Actually, I think terrain has something to do with developing player skills. Places like the Upper Midwest and east coast seem to have more terrain variety, at least on the sites where courses are located, than places like Florida and the Plains states, not that flat terrain seems to have hurt current and former Floridians like Kenny, Slasor, Monroe, Jaws and Hosfeld.

It's still drive for show and putt for dough as in ball golf. If you can groove your shots on reachable holes, like Atwood's concern, then you can be close enough to not have to work as hard on your putting game. The more foliage on the course, the more likely you'll have to develop more technical approach and putting skills like straddle putts (Barry).

I think that part of Mark's point was that the easier parks get the highest traffic. The more difficult courses that challenge a good player to score par get the least traffic.

I have never enjoyed pitch and putt courses very much, I prefer courses that demand good placement off the tee to have a reasonable shot at a three. We don't really have many of those around here to choose from. We do have a lot that a really good tee shot gives you a shot at a birdie, and most anything else will get you a three.

If I could bring any 2 courses from Worlds back to play, I would have to bring Walnut Ridge and Grandview. Grandview because it is a feel good course that still offers some challenge, and Walnut Ridge because if you learn to play well on that course, you can play well anywhere.

Yes Gary, that was the main thrust of my point.

We have some good (and I don't just mean long, good can be many things) courses here, but the more difficult ones that could teach players about their mental as well as physical golf game, get less than half the traffic of the ones with an ssa in the 40's.

Its a mindset here in Tejas that concerns and confuses me, not just the courses.

And the big problem with that is, the newer younger players are gonna go where the most golf is being played, and will inherently crop up in those areas and player bases.

The "mentor" aspect has some possibilities. Morley Field continues to crank out excellent golfers, even though it doesn't get the respect I feel it deserves. It's called a short course, but it isn't that short. What I feel is a great thing about Morley is that it demands a wide variety of shot making ability. Snapper has laid out a great course even though there isn't enough land to make any long holes by todays standards. But the variety of shots required to played the course well makes a huge difference.

The fact that there have always been top golfers there probably helps a lot in continuing to make top gofers from there. I hadn't really thought about that before, but it does make a lot sense.

Mark, it�s not that Texas doesn�t have enough big, rugged, long, par 60+ courses, it�s just that they are not all too conveniently located.

The reality is, most folks live in the city. Most city courses are size constrained, thus a larger number of smaller holes. The frequency that these smaller courses are played has more to do with their convenience and proximity rather than a desire to �make one�s self feel better about their game�.

I agree whole-heartedly that playing championship caliber courses (such as San Saba, Wimberley, Round Rock, and Cameron East) will do much to improve one�s game. However, it�s not very feasible for most people to drive 30 minutes to 2 hours away to play a round that will take anywhere from 2-3 hours to complete for casual rounds.

Not to mention the fatigue. I personally don�t think I could play the Hill Course in Wimberley more than once every couple of weeks during the Texas summers.

Mark has a very good point actually. Take Houston for example. At any given time you can find a ton of people playing at Moffitt park, but rarely do I see more than 3-5 playing either course at Bass. Much of that is the location of Bass and some of it is the conditions. When Bass gets mowed once every 2 months people want to come down and play it!

That said, it doesn't necessilarily help to play the Bass courses all the time. Those are my main courses and I"m not much better! My driving is better due to the lengths of the holes, but most of them are relatively wide open. I play decent ad Bass but then get trashed by the back 9 at the Beast in Waco that are tight and long.

i've noticed alot of people translating this from Better Courses=Better Golfers to Longer Courses=Better Golfers.

i think that's a big mistake

: ) :

GOD Macktruck, don't you think that the better courses are going to end up being longer just from the advancements in disc design? I'm not saying that a wide open course with nothing but 800 ft holes will be the best course in the world. It won't. You are from NC. Look at some of the courses that have become outdated by more "high tech" discs. Horizons park in Winston Salem, Kentwood in Raleigh, Cedarock original short pads at my own home course in Burlington, and others too numerous to name. All of these courses were designed when Aeros and Aviars were long distance drivers. I'm sure that all of these courses were quite challenging in their day but that day has passed. I am not saying that these courses need to be pulled up or redesigned, they are still a great way to introduce new golfers to our sport but these are no longer effective tournament courses.

Now conversely, look at the newer courses that were designed for "world class" play. Just staying in or near our home state look at Zebulon, Hornets Nest, Renaissance, and probably the current "daddy of all courses" Winthrop. This is where the sport is heading. This is the style of golf that we have to prepare ourselves for to be competeitve at the higher levels. Those that get to practice these courses on a regular basis are going to have a definite advantage over those that don't or don't even get the chance to see courses like that.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

True Rodney, but Macktruck's point is valid in that the literal translation of Better=Longer is wholly inaccurate.

Part of the problem is that some golfers don't want to develop their game, but just improve their score. Developing their game would also lead to improving their score, but then DG is seen as work, not as a recreation/game/sport. The better/"tougher" courses force players to learn/refine different shots, not focus on getting their hyzer out another 10 feet.

Better courses also increase the importance of a strong mental game, but that's another thread. :)

Texas players dominate the Discussion Board. Perhaps disc golf skill is inversely related to posting volume?

(I coulda been a World Champion if only I could resist posting...)

Texas players dominate the Discussion Board. Perhaps disc golf skill is inversely related to posting volume?



Actually, that should read job skill is inversely related to posting volume. :)

What a conundrum if posting IS my job skill!

I don't think Texas is the only state with players that play the "feel better about my game" par-54 courses more than the tougher courses. People do it here all the time. Personally, I don't feel better about my game by shooting under par at a course like Reedy Creek. I do feel great when I shoot par or under at Renny! Preparing for Worlds, all I played was Renny, with some Hornet's Nest and Winthrup for variety. It also helped by playing with better players on those tough courses. Playing harder courses will improve your game.

It also helped by playing with better players on those tough courses.



The more I think about it, the more I believe that is the key to improvement. Playing a harder course will only get you so far. Playing an easy course with better players will open your eyes as to what the best shot is and how to look for it. Ideally playing a better course with better players will help you the most.

I don't know if "harder course" = "better course" here, though. I think playing a well-rounded course that requires a big variety of shot selection with better players will help you the most, regardless of whether the well-rounded course is really hard or not.

Better courses also increase the importance of a strong mental game, but that's another thread. :)



Not at all. That's a major part of the reason why I started this one. The lack of mental toughness and/or preparedness needed to excel on longer/tougher/more demanding - i.e. "better" courses is one of the biggest problems that results from this, "Let's go play Searight instead of Wimberley," mindset.

To expand upon that post.

The mental toughness to handle a 5 on a hole that should be a 3, and not let it spread to other holes is important.
The mental ability to overide your ego's desire to go over/through really dangerous ground that you might be able to clear with just the hope of shaving a stroke is important.
The knowledge that a risky 350' drive with the hope of a 150' approach is less desirable than a simple 250' placement shot followed by a simple 250' approach is important.

These are things that you can't learn on easy "three from anywhere" or birdie fest courses.

How about not playing at all. Practice instead, and I'll clarify that.

Practice in open fields instead of the course. At the course you're throwing specific shots at specific targets.

And when at the field it's not all about how far can you crush it. We all know the folks in Texas can throw forever (easy to do with the lack of trees) but driving is such a small part of the game. Accuracy, upshots and putting is what seperates the better players in divisions from the pretenders.

And practice every type of shot whether you ever need to use it in your own state or not. Sidearm, rollers , thumbers etc. come in handy when traveling to tournaments in other states (especially states with trees).

And one of the most important things of all, LEARN YOUR DISCS. Company X just released the CEZ APLHA Super long range whizzamajig. This disc will still fly like everything else out there until you take the time to learn what it does for you.

Then go to the course and play with better players and learn from them. This might mean swallowing a little pride but it will help improve your game.

Take all these things and add in a strong local group that pushes each other to do better and you'll see a number of people benefit.

This is but one of the reasons NC disc golf does as well as it does. (that plus we have to learn to throw between trees, lots of trees)

One thing that is for sure, as Crash Davis said, "the difference between being stuck in the minors and making it to the bigs can be as little as 20 dinks, 20 balls that fell just in, 20 hits that should have been caught." For the average 980 disc golfer to move up to 1000 that is only a couple of shots per tournament. That is, the difference between Texas dominating and not even showing up on the radar is a couple of strokes per tournament for a handfull of players. My impression has generally been that those kinds of differences come down to the mental game. It's keeping your focus on every shot and making it count. Honestly, I don't think the course you play, hard or easy, will determine your mental toughness. It has more to do with having a killer instinct than playing a tough course. People that have developed the right mental toughness will play the tougher course. They will challenge themselves or find ways to make shorter easier courses more difficult.

If this is true, the big question would be, why are players in other states mentally tougher than those in Texas for that little bit where it is required in each tournament?

If this is true, the big question would be, why are players in other states mentally tougher than those in Texas for that little bit where it is required in each tournament?



Texas Beer. :)

It is kind of weird that none of the touring Texas Open players did very well at Worlds. Oh yeah we have no TOURING Players(That I Know of). Better courses will help improve your game. Playing against World Class competition over and over on good courses has to really improve your game both physically and mentally. Playing with Mark .....

Playing with Mark .....



.....Priceless

Playing with Mark .....



.....Priceless



as in you couldn't pay me enough :D

Okay Shannon, let's get one thing straight.

I've told you time and again that I'm not gonna be your doubles partner. This infatuation of yours with the idea of golfing with me is starting to become pathetic. Let it go. :D

As for your REAL contribution to this thread, I agree with your point about touring teaching a player as much or more than anything else. How could it not?

That said, you of all people should know about and understand the mindset I'm referring to that seems to be a problem moreso here than I'm guessing in other places. Not to put too fine of a point on it, but you'd have to know. After all, you work at one of the underutilized great course complexes that I'm using to make my point.

I've tried not to post on this but......oh well :D

I think the biggest point that has been made on this thread is that TX lacks a true "touring PRO" for one reason or another. If we had someone that was out touring for their bread and butter I think that would put TX on the map as far as top Pros goes.

Just look at the list of players that we have that could be at the top of this sport if they actually toured!!!!!

I cannot explain why more of them don't go out and try to make a living at Disc Golf, allot of them could :confused:, but I think that if their livelyhood depended on it they would be much better players.

One theory I have worked out is the fact that the state of TX is sssssoooooo large, with ssssssoooo many tournaments going on, that some of the "better" players pick and choose what they will attend(i.e.....courses they know, long course versus short course, etc, etc, etc..........) and limit themselves in their game. I see the attitude of "why should I go on tour when there are plenty of tournies here that I can definately cash in" on way too many occasions.

IMHO it is just a overwhelming feeling of complacency among our top players, because they generally see the same competition week in, week out(not to mention the same courses).

MY 2 CENTS

Why have you tried not to post on this thread? As a heavily involved member of a club that boasts within its family unit some of the top Texas Pros, I would think your views on this subject would be most welcomed.

As for what those views were, you know I love ya, bro, buuuuuuuuut............... :D


I think the biggest point that has been made on this thread is that TX lacks a true "touring PRO" for one reason or another.



If you think that's the biggest point that has been made on this thread, then I must not be very good at making my point of contention clear enough. That is not at all the point which I, at least, am trying to make, although it could certainly be a symptom of the larger issue I'm trying to address.

Are we gonna say that those players who ARE touring pros make the decision to do so simply because they lack regional competion that could offer them an option? I don't think that's a very strong argument to back up the kind of committment it must take to make a life choice like being a touring disc golfer. Although, as you point out, Texas is a bit different than other places in that the opportunities for pros to make money are a lot more plentiful here, I would think it would require many other important factors to make such a huge and risky committment as this than simply going to where there are more places to play. Can't go with ya on this one.


I cannot explain why more of them don't go out and try to make a living at Disc Golf, allot of them could , but I think that if their livelyhood depended on it they would be much better players.




To say that you don't know why more of them don't do it, shows me that you're just as befuddled by this as I am. That's why I'm looking for answers as to why we don't "grow" more touring capable golfers. Further to suggest that a lot of them could do it, if they chose to, and that they would fare well simply by knowing that their livelihood depended on it, is a subjective reach, at best, that we simply can't back up with any empirical evidence.


IMHO it is just a overwhelming feeling of complacency among our top players, because they generally see the same competition week in, week out(not to mention the same courses).




Not that my point is now or ever was about the number of touring pros from Texas, but let me just say that the above statement, if true, would seem to me to be a reason TO get out and tour, not to stay home. You lost me on that one.

Finally, before you get the impression that I'm just jumping all over your entire post, and to clear up one thing for anyone who thinks I'm dogging Texas players, I'll say this. I agree with you that we have some top notch Texas pros. In fact, I could name off the top of my head, probably a dozen Texas pros who I think would be competitive if they were to tour and still leave some names off that list that might deserve to be on there. This point about a troubling Texas mindset and its relation to the types of courses here that get the most play, is in no way intended to be a reflection on those excellent Texas players who transcend this problem and would be competitive regardless of where they lived.

In a nutshell, my concern is simply this:

We have more courses, tournaments and tournament players than anywhere else. Period. Why then don't we represent better on a national level? That's really my only question here.

My best guess at an answer and the reason for the existence of this thread is the whole "better courses" issue and the resulting apathetic mindset which I'm attributing to it.

This is just me looking for an answer to something that doesn't make sense to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry Mark, I just wanted to retitle your thread. :D

I like the focus of this question though:


We have more courses, tournaments and tournament players than anywhere else. Period. Why then don't we represent better on a national level? That's really my only question here.




Courses? Doubtful. Like I said upthread, there was a time when we had the real Round Rock and the real Veterans. However, we still underachieved. Besides, do any good players hang out at Seawright anyway?

Touring players? Since this is Shannon's answer, it must be wrong. :eek: However, I'm unsure what a touring player is anyway. Someone without a job and plays disc golf all the time? Well, we have plenty of those. :p

Chuck's answer. A possibility since a lot of our best players don't post here.

I still think having top level players to play against day to day is one big key. You are forced to play better. You see what it takes to be a great player and it begins to seep into your blood. Additionally, having good mentors/coaches is probably the most important. Look at other sports. One great coach begets a long line of other great coaches and players, who then transfer that knowledge to others, who etc.

Sorry, dinner's ready or I would try to bullshite some more. ;)

You freakin' troublemaker. Like I'm not walking a thin enough line already without you trying to get me in more trouble with that thread name. Gee, with friends like you.... :D

Go eat your dinner.



Courses? Doubtful.



What's doubtful? That we have more courses, as I stated? Not likely, look it up. Doubtful that the types of courses make a difference? Well, I guess that's what I'm asking. If this is your way of disagreeing with that hypothesis, then okay.


Like I said upthread, there was a time when we had the real Round Rock and the real Veterans. However, we still underachieved.



And why is that? Even without the "real" versions of those two courses, we still have some challenging courses, they just are not the ones with the large player bases. That's a large part of what I'm addressing here, even though so many different angles have cropped up from my original direction that I can barely remember what the hell we're talking about anymore myself. ;)


Besides, do any good players hang out at Seawright anyway?



Easy there, dinner boy, you're perilously close to proving my point for me.


Touring players? Since this is Shannon's answer, it must be wrong.



LMAO! While I have to agree that the source of this answer automatically discredits it (not serious), I'd like to add something about Shannon (serious). I'm disappointed that he didn't offer more in the way of insight and less in the way of humor. He is the perfect example of a Texas pro that none of this stuff applies to and one who could be competitive on any level if should choose to attempt it.

(*shudders from the reality of making a public compliment to Mr. Fosdick)


I still think having top level players to play against day to day is one big key. You are forced to play better. You see what it takes to be a great player and it begins to seep into your blood.



Again, and this goes back to my point to Jason, what do you think makes these touring players top level players to play against day to day? Are they not already top level players when they go on tour? Do they just sprout up everywhere but here? With more courses and more tournament players in Texas, shouldn't the percentage of these golfers be larger coming from our state? Why isn't it?


Additionally, having good mentors/coaches is probably the most important.



And again, where do these mentors come from? Are they drinking something in MI, WI, NC and other places that is unavailable in the water here?

Look, here's my issue in yet another nutshell :D:

If we have more human beings in our region playing this sport than anywhere else in the world, why aren't the percentages of mentors, top level players and any other positives you wanna mention regarding how the sport is played, higher from here than anywhere else? Its a fair question.

Well, for starters, you have to look at what the differences are between the regions in question. The most eye catching difference in my view is the courses, and the amount of play on the ones with a higher level of challenge. Do you really not see that as being a factor here?

Actually,

I'm not sure that Jason doesn't have a point. It is easy enough to test. What is our ratio of touring players to states that have the top players? I don't know who tours but I'm guessing someone does. How many of the 1000 rated players tour, how does that relate to Texas? Maybe touring players are [pun on]hungrier[pun off/] than non-touring players?

I'm still not convinced the difference is course quality. Especially since touring pros play it on the hoof. Furthermore, in Stokely's book he never talks about playing courses, he talks about playing shots (I've seen the same from Climo). My guess is that if you talk to other top players you are going to find that outside of tournaments they do the same. You might find that for some bizzare reason that Texas players don't do this but I would be surprised if that were true. It's easy enough to determine.

Sorry Mark. Dinner's over and I just wanted to retitle your thread. :D

This is just me looking for an answer to something that doesn't make sense to me. Nothing more, nothing less.




JOIN THE CLUB

And if you missed the entire point I was going for












I DON'T THINK IT'S THE COURSES.........IT'S THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES!!!!

Now that I'm done yelling at you :D, go back and read my last post with an open mind(I.E......not looking for something to argue about) and think about some of the people that I drag with me to events.

Do they have what it takes to be in the "elite" class of Disc Golfers.....yes.

Do they have the DRIVE to compete with some of the "touring" pros.....I don't think so.


As far as allot of the other high rated players in TX go, I have no clue as to why they don't fair better in a large field.............All I know is that a certain name or two can appear on a pre-registered list at a TX tournament and several players won't even show up because they think that they cannot compete

All I know is that a certain name or two can appear on a pre-registered list at a TX tournament and several players won't even show up because they think that they cannot compete



i didn't know jay bitner and willy c were feared by so many :D

I think it's a combination of both the player & the kind of courses you play.

If the player doesn't "practice" his/her game, they will not improve by just playing any type of course.

If you haven't played a championship style course before, you will lack experience and may be shell shocked when you play championship calibur courses. Your mindset needs to change when playing these courses.

I've played MI, WI, & IA courses. They are by far tougher than any other courses in IL. Peoria has some good courses but it's 3 hours from the burbs where the majority of the players from IL are.

IL has some of the shortest courses. I can't think of one in the Burbs of Chicago that shooting par is good. You have to shoot under par at all of them to have a good round. Saying that, I think 3 players from IL finished 5,6,7 in the Advanced Division. I managed a 34th place finish. This is why i'm not totally sold on it being the course alone.

And maybe that's the problem? I don't know, but here are some numbers:

<table border="1"><tr><td>State</td><td># MPO</td><td> 1000+ MPO
</td></tr><tr><td>California</td><td> 220</td><td> 14
</td></tr><tr><td>Florida</td><td> 108</td><td> 5
</td></tr><tr><td>Iowa</td><td> 45</td><td> 0
</td></tr><tr><td>Illinois</td><td> 41</td><td> 0
</td></tr><tr><td>Indiana</td><td> 32</td><td> 1
</td></tr><tr><td>North Carolina</td><td> 69</td><td> 7
</td></tr><tr><td>Michigan</td><td> 84</td><td> 5
</td></tr><tr><td>Texas</td><td> 129</td><td> 1
</td></tr><tr><td>Wisconsin</td><td> 65</td><td> 4 </tr></td></table>

Texas is kind of like Illinois, Indiana and Iowa combined. The answer can be found somewhere in North Carolina. They seem to have more 1000+ rated pros as a percentage of MPOs than any other state.

I think the biggest point that has been made on this thread is that TX lacks a true "touring PRO" for one reason or another. If we had someone that was out touring for their bread and butter I think that would put TX on the map as far as top Pros goes.

Just look at the list of players that we have that could be at the top of this sport if they actually toured!!!!!

I cannot explain why more of them don't go out and try to make a living at Disc Golf, allot of them could , but I think that if their livelyhood depended on it they would be much better players.





I'll tell you why............The Money is not there!!!



Here is a list of the top 15 money earning open players in the pdga as of the last update:

Barry Schultz $ 18429
Cameron Todd $ 15081
Kevin McCoy $ 9944
Ken Climo $ 9933
David Feldberg $ 9636
Steve Brinster $ 7374
Brian Schweberger $ 7107
Keith Warren $ 6513
Timmy Gill $ 6214
Chris Heeren $ 6063
John E. McCray $ 5300
Todd Branch $ 4555
Peter Middlecamp $ 4541
Steve Rico $ 4490
Shawn Sinclair $ 4196



So, we are in the 36th week of the year, and the sports highest earner is averaging $511.91 a week minus his entry fee's. Now Barry, and other Team Champion, and Z-Team members get a few entry's paid for, usually only Major events.



I don't see how some of these people do it. I mean i know a lot of the people above very well, some are very good friends. I know that some of them get royalties on discs, others receive so many free discs that disc sales really help their income. I know that helps.



These people also play or practice disc golf EVERY day, sometimes TWICE A DAY, and that's what it takes to make this list. I personally don't have the time, i play twice a week during daylight savings(wed. and sun.), and i only play once a week during the winter(sundays). Practice, what's that? :confused: :confused:



Now, as for Texas's best golfer (his initials are NG if you don't know who i'm talking about :D), $511 a week is a lot of money. To me it's NOT. It isn't possible to pay mortgage on a house, 2 car payments, and an assload of diapers :Dearning ONLY $500 a week minus entry fees and travel expenses.



Yes, I'd like to live the American dream, and play disc golf for a living instead of doing the 9 to 5 grind, but the money is not there. Maybe one day it will be, but until the last cashing spot pays $1,000, i'll continue doing the fat man dancing grind. I'm not saying that i shoot for last place cash, i'm saying that to insure me and my family of living the life we want, that's what it's going to take.



Money.......It's what make the world go 'round :D


Now back to your regular scheduled program..............

Interesting table Bruce. 1000+ rated golfers as a % of total members by state would also be interesting (would eleminate the possibility of local "bagger culture" skewing).

Useless aside: I prefer to use worlds as a measuring stick, well, because I can't think of a better one. I don't totally buy the ratings measure (For example, Iowa has no 1000 golfers, yet I can think of at least 3 that did very well at worlds), I prefer the measure I used to see in DGWN, where they had % of entrants by state and % that cashed by state, money won by state.

At any rate, the table screams out that top notch talent is concentrated in certain locales. Why is that? I'll try to clarify my argument to Mark

Option 1 - Hard courses make great players.
If true, a surrogate measure used to identify areas of top golfers would be the concentration of SSA 55+ (?) courses. Identify those and you have found the great golfers. Without the stats, I can't disprove this hypothesis, but it seems weak. California has a ton of great players. Are they well known for super difficult courses?

Mark, you also implied that part of Texas problem lies in the fact that a large % of golfers apparently like to hang at the peepee courses. I suspect that this is true everywhere.

I also point out that very few of the good Texas golfers hang out at these courses. Therefore, since the better Texas golfers do play the hardest courses and Texas still doesn't kick butt, then this hypothesis is lacking.

While it is obviously true that great courses will challenge you and improve your game, they won't turn you into the next Climo or Schultz.

Option 2 - The idea that certain areas have a higher percentage of touring players.

The money (or lack thereof) is available to everyone. It is not regionalized.

However, if this hypothesis is meant to mean that touring is like swimming with sharks all the time and you will learn how to swim better, then I agree.

Option 3 - The golden seed.

Stupid name, but the idea is that "if a top notch player is located in an area, he/she will raise the level of play of others. Better yet, if this player is good at teaching their skill to others over time, quality disc golfers will begin to locally flourish.

I am not good enough to have even considered going to Iowa. However, I watched the scores every day every day. I noticed some of the same as what Mark noticed. However, I guess I looked at this a little differently. Texas did have one first place finisher at worlds...Deatra Edwards in Women's Advanced Masters! Congrats De!
Then, Mark started this thread. I looked at it with an open mind, as I do most things. I found that there are some good ideas from some good posts from some players outside of TX. A couple write about practicing shots, not holes and the importance of knowing a variety of shots. The importance of playing with better players is also brought up. Several wrote about the mental aspects of the game.
I wrote down the highlights from this thread and have it on a sticky note in my bag.
It is true that most articles about disc golf are about either the fundamentals or the mental game. Likewise, most books on ball golf are about the same...grips, stance, and mental.
Many of us have a difficult aspect to overcome, self-doubt.
I believe several of us, not just women, but also some top male players may have this problem. It is a large part of what separates a champion from a Rec player. If we do not believe we can throw far or make it through the trees or make that 50 ft putt, than chances are we cannot. If you do not believe you can beat a top player, then you can't. I believe it is something that will plague me during my entire life. I played a round recently, telling myself variations of "I can make this shot" aloud, and loudly, same course, same weather conditions and cut 15 strokes off what I had done the day before, 5 strokes off my personal best. Now I know it can be done, but I still have to remind myself at each throw.
Yes, my two cents would be that mental game is most important for one to become a champion at disc golf (or most anything else), more important than course selection (although that helps too because it helps the mental game).

I believe several of us, not just women, but also some top male players may have this problem. It is a large part of what separates a champion from a Rec player. If we do not believe we can throw far or make it through the trees or make that 50 ft putt, than chances are we cannot. If you do not believe you can beat a top player, then you can't. I believe it is something that will plague me during my entire life. I played a round recently, telling myself variations of "I can make this shot" aloud, and loudly, same course, same weather conditions and cut 15 strokes off what I had done the day before, 5 strokes off my personal best. Now I know it can be done, but I still have to remind myself at each throw.



This is AMAZING advice. IOWA taught me alot of things about how to play tournament golf. It also made me realize that i AM a good golfer. People can tell you how much potential you have or how good they think you are or whatever as much as they want, but untill YOU yourself believe you are a good golfer and you believe you can make the putts and throw the shots you will not be able to play to your full ability.

Worlds gave me the confidence that i needed to become a better tournament player. Before worlds i had never finished first place in a tournament in my life. I know its only been 2 years but still i had never done it. I also never BELIEVED i could do it either. I ALWAYS walked into tournaments thinking oh so and so is here i have no chance at beating them or im not as good as these guys. THATS THE WORST THING YOU CAN POSSIBLY DO TO YOURSELF.

Ill get to the point. First tournament after worlds that we play my buddy and i are driving up there just shootin the ***** and he like what do you want to do this weekend??? I said "IM GOING TO WIN THIS WEEKEND" hes said that sounds good and we ended up in a tie for 1st place. If you think you can win then anything is possible. If you think you cant win then you might as well be sitting at home watching TV because you have already gone into the event expecting to lose.

Id say 90% of this game is Mental and only 10% Physical. The sooner you get your head in the right place your scores will follow :D

Keep up the good work laura :D

Just remember that hitting just 5 more putts in a round should add about 50 points to your rating. How mamy times have you missed 5 putts in a round that you have made 100 times in practice?

If putt with confidence, you will generally make more than you miss (confidence comes from practice).

All putts that are short fail to go in.

The idea that your mental game is the biggest change agent is a good one in theory. However, we all know that this is true only to a point. Joe Schmo Advanced player isn't going to beat Climo just because he believes that today is his day.
My Hero has had, to me, the best answer to this question. The idea of spending several hundred dollars to go across state lines to a tourney to fight it out with great competition when you can stay relatively close to your house, playing a course you already know, with a better than average chance of cashing and staying with a friend for free, doesn't make any sense. (Pardon the excessively long sentence)
This doesn't mean that I have no desire to get better or that I lack the competitive edge. It simply means that it isn't cost effecient. Sorry to say, but the dollars don't support more than a handful of touring pros. When the dollars are out there you will see more people trying for their piece.

For the last ten years in Central Iowa, and many more cities in the rest of the state, we have been too busy petitioning to the parks, fundraising and paying for, and installing our courses to practice! Now that Worlds is over, maybe some of our younger players will break 1000!!

I'm really glad you all liked the courses! Everyone worked really hard to make them top notch!!

I don't think Texas has a very good pool of decent pros either we just seem to have a lot of 930-975 guys which can still play well and win PRO. I think that this could be one reason that we only have one 1000+ pro ( there is no incentive to go and shoot an average of 1030 at a tournament when you only need to play 990 to win. Also have you noticed we don't have many top rated Adv. players also I mean our highest 953 compared to the many 960+ around the country. Also TX brought home 2 World titles. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

It starts in the AM divisions. One thing I've noticed about TX as opposed to NC is that there are way too many Intermediates and way too few Advanced players. The Coastal Clash this weekend has almost as many rec players as Advanced. I've never attended a tournament in NC where there was even a rec division at all. At every NC tournament there are always more advanced players than intermediates. You play intermediate and you get the crap beat out of you until you win one tournament. Then you move up to advanced and get the crap beat out of you some more. That's how it is here. MOVE UP! You play with better players, you get better. Am I right here or what? Just a thought.

EOG

Perhaps maturity of the disc golf scene in an area is a way to see how well an area does? Instead of comparing number of 1000+ pros to MPO in a state, take a look at either average PDGA number or number of PDGA numbers below 5000 let's say versus total PDGA members in a state. These should be active tournament players (Houck is out for example). I suspect that California and NC might have deeper histories than TX but I'm not sure.

Perhaps maturity of the disc golf scene in an area is a way to see how well an area does?


I think SoCal has more 1000+ rated players than Texas, but Texas has a lot more people willing to skip playing one weekend and run a tournament.

I know which one of those I consider "more mature". :)

I think the key is (after field practice) constantantly playing a variety of courses. If you play one or or just a few courses all the time things get too routine and playing different courses all the time forces you to play by instinct.

I tested the state "maturity" hypothesis and didn't find anything there. Here are the stats. I compared the number of active members with PDGA numbers under 6000 with those over 5999 in each state. Compared percentages of old tonew and their average ratings. The table below is sorted in descending order by number of active playing members with PDGA numbers under 6000.

<table border="1"><tr><td># of Active</td><td>Number with</td><td>% active</td><td>Avg. rating</td><td>Avg. rating</td><td># of
</td></tr><tr><td>State</td><td>Members</td><td>PDGA# <6000</td><td>oldtimers</td><td>oldtimers</td><td>newcomers</td><td>Pro WC
</td></tr><tr><td>CA</td><td>602</td><td>77</td><td>13%</td><td>945</td><td>913</td><td>10
</td></tr><tr><td>FL</td><td>307</td><td>37</td><td>12%</td><td>945</td><td>903</td><td>5
</td></tr><tr><td>TX</td><td>496</td><td>34</td><td>7%</td><td>945</td><td>905</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>OH</td><td>139</td><td>22</td><td>16%</td><td>921</td><td>915</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>KY</td><td>141</td><td>20</td><td>14%</td><td>939</td><td>903</td><td>4
</td></tr><tr><td>GA</td><td>142</td><td>18</td><td>13%</td><td>934</td><td>905</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>NC</td><td>249</td><td>17</td><td>7%</td><td>951</td><td>911</td><td>4
</td></tr><tr><td>MO</td><td>101</td><td>17</td><td>17%</td><td>947</td><td>909</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>OK</td><td>134</td><td>16</td><td>12%</td><td>937</td><td>914</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>IL</td><td>133</td><td>15</td><td>11%</td><td>938</td><td>910</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>AL</td><td>59</td><td>14</td><td>24%</td><td>944</td><td>920</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>MI</td><td>287</td><td>14</td><td>5%</td><td>944</td><td>910</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>KS</td><td>91</td><td>14</td><td>15%</td><td>943</td><td>908</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>MD</td><td>70</td><td>13</td><td>19%</td><td>946</td><td>907</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>WI</td><td>159</td><td>12</td><td>8%</td><td>930</td><td>924</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>CO</td><td>178</td><td>12</td><td>7%</td><td>949</td><td>911</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>PA</td><td>106</td><td>12</td><td>11%</td><td>951</td><td>909</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>NY</td><td>61</td><td>11</td><td>18%</td><td>932</td><td>909</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>VA</td><td>138</td><td>11</td><td>8%</td><td>940</td><td>909</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>TN</td><td>123</td><td>10</td><td>8%</td><td>947</td><td>914</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>ON</td><td>72</td><td>10</td><td>14%</td><td>953</td><td>906</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>IA</td><td>143</td><td>10</td><td>7%</td><td>925</td><td>905</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>IN</td><td>78</td><td>9</td><td>12%</td><td>934</td><td>914</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>DE</td><td>41</td><td>8</td><td>20%</td><td>944</td><td>926</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>MN</td><td>127</td><td>8</td><td>6%</td><td>918</td><td>918</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>OR</td><td>114</td><td>8</td><td>7%</td><td>937</td><td>907</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>AZ</td><td>72</td><td>7</td><td>10%</td><td>956</td><td>926</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>SC</td><td>65</td><td>5</td><td>8%</td><td>913</td><td>901</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>MA</td><td>27</td><td>5</td><td>19%</td><td>928</td><td>916</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>NJ</td><td>52</td><td>5</td><td>10%</td><td>946</td><td>911</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>CT</td><td>17</td><td>4</td><td>24%</td><td>929</td><td>919</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>AR</td><td>21</td><td>4</td><td>19%</td><td>939</td><td>916</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>NV</td><td>41</td><td>4</td><td>10%</td><td>952</td><td>910</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>WA</td><td>130</td><td>4</td><td>3%</td><td>960</td><td>906</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>NM</td><td>30</td><td>3</td><td>10%</td><td>921</td><td>913</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>BC</td><td>10</td><td>2</td><td>20%</td><td>939</td><td>933</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>UT</td><td>22</td><td>2</td><td>9%</td><td>946</td><td>920</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>MS</td><td>17</td><td>2</td><td>12%</td><td>954</td><td>918</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>LA</td><td>38</td><td>2</td><td>5%</td><td>932</td><td>917</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>HI</td><td>20</td><td>2</td><td>10%</td><td>903</td><td>917</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>WV</td><td>15</td><td>1</td><td>7%</td><td>995</td><td>909</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>NE</td><td>39</td><td>1</td><td>3%</td><td>917</td><td>903</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>AK</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>25%</td><td>937</td><td>883</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>NH</td><td>6</td><td>1</td><td>17%</td><td>970</td><td>872</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>MT</td><td>5</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>937</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>ND</td><td>7</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>926</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>ME</td><td>11</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>924</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>SD</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>915</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>ID</td><td>15</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>914</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>QC</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>911</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>RI</td><td>4</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>894</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>MB</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>892</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>WY</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>931</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>AB</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>949</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>VT</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>0%</td><td>0</td><td>877</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>

I'm not sure how I feel about this theory. I play my home course on an almost daily basis. The nearest course is about 5-6 hours away and it is not cheap to travel these distances in Japan. Not to mention the speed limits are terribly slow and the toll roads cost a fortune. So with that said, I have no real option but to play here. I know someday I will face tougher courses and I try to mentally prepare for this by approaching each hole on this course differently as I intend to compete someday. This course is heavily wooded so there are many options for many of the shots. I will try several approaches, techniques, different discs thrown different ways etc. I'm near the point where I will 2 and 3 every hole on the course, then what? I am doomed to never progress?

I don't think so.

I'll go out some days and work on putts. Take the twig and keep pushing it back farther and farther as I improve on each distance. I practice with the same putter so I can get the entire feel in my hand, wind-up, follow through. If you start banging the long putts on a consistent basis you will do well on any course, period. Some days I work on driving techniques. I carry a full bag (and many more in the trunk) so I'll take a select bunch of discs out and throw them every which way I can just to monitor the results. Some days I challenge myself and walk around the course with 1 driver and my putter and force myself to acquaint myself with the disc. I walked around the course with a Firebird today and began to realize what this disc was capable of (almost everything). Previously I only used it for a few select shots on the course. So if you are used to a flat open course and you finally make it around to a wooded course with hills, water hazards, etc. you will have a variety of techniques and well-tamed discs at your disposal. Trees and hills shouldn't be a factor for someone who knows their repetition and bag inside-out.


I think playing more difficult courses is a good thing (if for nothing but variety) but not essential to bettering oneself. It's all about mindset. If people want to play the pitch-putt courses because they are easy to bird or because all their friends go there. Fine. This surely isn't exclusive to Texas. Recreational DG is spreading everywhere. But if a DG'er plays a 'wimpy' course because it's not cost-efficient or time-efficient due to work/school/lack of funds yet tries his very best to improve his game on his home course, then this theory falls flat.

So I guess what I am trying to say is what course you play really has very little to do with progressing. There are rec players and then there are future pros. No in-betweens.

Most of these points have been made before (and put more eloquently, probably) on this thread. I just wanted to chime in and reiterate. Quite frankly, I'm sick of being a 'lurker'. :D

You are playing different courses. Just all of them are in the same place.

I think the point looks to be more along the lines that people that choose to play tougher courses (or play easier courses tough) make better players. Those that choose to dial in a single line for each hole on one easy course seldom do well away from that course.

I think the point looks to be more along the lines that people that choose to play tougher courses (or play easier courses tough) make better players. Those that choose to dial in a single line for each hole on one easy course seldom do well away from that course.



This is one of the points (along with the better courses thing) that I've been trying to make. Here, it seems, there's more of a tendency to play those courses with which you have some familiarity, while some of our best courses get very little play except when there's a tourney round there or one on the horizon.

what about the fact that some of us do not play anywhere near the way I play in a torun. round as in a casual round. ie:beaumont last weekend.

Mark,its Location, location, location

matt you have a PM

3 things:

More talent makes better players.

Comment for another thread that I'm way too lazy to go back to --- if a guy ran a tourney and pocketed big $$ while everyone was anxious to play in it again -- how can you say it's not right? You didn't do anything -- shutup and smile dork.

Comment for another thread that I'm way too lazy to go back to: $100 for the thingy that holds discs and ties to your leg is too much? Make one for less or shut the [*****] up.

Stupid culture. If you don't want it - don't buy it.

I could definitely make one for less than $100. However, I don't want to.
I sometimes use a vest from an army surplus store that can hold 6-8 discs with no impedence to movement whatsoever. In addition to the 'disc pockets' it also has 11 other pockets.
28 bucks.

Some signatures are annoying because they become tiresome with repetition.
Some signatures are annoying because they become tiresome with repetition.
Some signatures are annoying because they become tiresome with repetition. ;)

I think if you're lucky enough to have easy access to a great course, you may learn faster than the players whose local is not so great. However, I'd have to agree, it's how you play and train yourself that matters most and there are ways of playing an inferior course that can definitely help. Playing 'safari' or 'gorilla' course variations is one way. Another way is to combine playing the course with just what beattheindiedrum does. Practice all the skills. Also, throwing bags of discs in a big open field is great training.
As an example, Steve Rico is from what some players consider to be a 'not so great course,' my local, Oak Grove, in Pasadena, CA. I think the longest hole is about 380 feet and many are under 300.
He can birdie every hole there (saw him shoot 19 under for 20 once) and yet he is in the top ten (five?) players in the world.

"It's the singer, not the song."--- Mick Jagger :)

I believe Steve Rico calls Sylmar his home course. Many people who I respect greatly as golfers and course designers say that they think that Sylmar would be the best course in SoCal if the fariways weren't lined with concrete rubble. (And that should be happening soon.)

You may be right about Sylmar. I've heard he plays Sylmar often but I see him at Oak Grove frequently. I thought he was from Pasadena and that OG was his home? OG club members (http://www.ogdgc.org/roster.htm)
I've played Sylmar quite a few times and it is too bad it's so ragged. Beautiful views.
I don't think I'd call it the best in SoCal, though, even without the concrete rubble. It's not particularly long, plus it's brutally HOT in the summer. No shade, exposed hillside, no grass, no drinks of ANY kind, not even a water faucet and not so many trees as compared with La Mirada or Oak Grove. I guess parts of it can be challenging if you like throwing uphill. :D

Sylmar gets the good reviews because of the shot variety needed to play it well. As for the other stuff, I think the Rico's got the concession contract there and they are turning it into a pay-to-play course with pro-shop for drinks and discs, and they are planning course improvements.

I think that plan is curently in work.

MiniBigArm:
Wow! Sounds like great news. I'll have to head back up there once this heat wave (high 90's to 100) subsides. :p

Interesting stuff.

I think Chuck makes one good point (out of about ten) that Texas golfers aren't used to the kind of elevation they saw in Iowa. Don't know if that was a factor or not. (Of course it may be that Texans play all year -- taking 3-4 months off every winter makes Minnesota and Wisconsin golfers mighty hungry.)

Robbie also has an excellent point (echoed by Mark). It's a lot easier to drive 10 minutes to Searight than to drive 45 minutes to Moody's.

Texas has long courses, but it doesn't have much in the way of tight courses. That may be more of a factor than anything else.

By the way, Texas has had plenty of great players. Eric Marx and Sam Grizzaffi both finished 2nd to Climo in Open (Eric did win Master at Worlds). Mike Sayre finished third. Joel was mere strokes away from winning Master twice.

Also, great players push each other, and that helps separate them from everyone else. Think how good Walter Haney, McCree, and Scweb had to get just to hang with Larry and Stan. Playing with World Class players forces you to get better if you want to compete. Plus you learn from each other. Texans don't seem to have those top dogs and that pressure, certainly not in one city.

It was pretty clear to me that most Texas players just underperformed at Worlds. We all know that Nolan, Justin, Joel, Vinnie, Chile, etc. are better than they showed. They've all done well at Worlds before; they just didn't have it for some reason this year. Alex did well, and we all know Shannon would have been top 10 if he had gone.

I'd predict a better showing next year, but I think those Allentown courses are probably going to be pretty tight. Then again, there may be a long and tight course in Central Texas' future. You never know.

Then again, there may be a long and tight course in Central Texas' future. You never know.



Is this a hint?

What do you know?

Shannon in the top 10?

Have you lost it?

Hi John and thanks for participating on this thread. I want to point out that I KNOW Texas has some some great players, past, present and future. I didn't list any names, because I wasn't referring to anyone specifically. I just seem to see a general malaise when it comes to newer players and the lack of a world class hotbed, which makes no sense to me where there are a higher percentage of tourney players and more courses.

Just part of my life long quest to make sense of things that don't make sense. :)

Here are some other questions to consider:

How bad would Texas players be if they didn't have all these great courses?

Why aren't there more great golfers from Iowa?

Would Ken and Barry have been as good if they had been from Texas?

My best guess would be that great players, like great writers or musicians, are just special people destined for greatness. Yes, it's important that they meet certain key people along the way, but where they live doesn't make much difference.

Except of course in disc golf, in which some of the greatest players of all time grew up and died without ever having heard of it. That's why we need more courses.


Just part of my life long quest to make sense of things that don't make sense. :)



Good luck with that.

James, all I can say to you is:

Maybe.
Not sure.
It could happen.
Probably.

Why aren't there more great golfers from Iowa?




The good ones left (Juliana, Des, Rodney :)) Of course, it's true Juliana and Des only have ratings in the Texas Advanced range.

Why aren't there more great golfers from Iowa?




The good ones left (Juliana, Des, Rodney :)) Of course, it's true Juliana and Des only have ratings in the Texas Advanced range.




Bwwaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Thanks for the chuckle Chuck.

Bwwaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Thanks for the chuckle Chuck.



Just seeing if you're paying attention...

could it be that in we Texans take things a little easier down here and aren't so hell bent on winning as we are about hanging out with friends and making new ones on the way. This resulting in playing shorter, funner courses where your friends are.

We do have fun and joke around in the OMB division, but don't let that fool you. We are a very competitive group. Winning isn't everything, but it is why we are there.

Then again, I only want to win when I have earned it by playing well. If I am not playing well, I would rather someone else do well and win.

However, I never step on the course at the start of a tournament with anything but winning in mind. After the first round, it may be a little different, but before the first round everyone is tied for first.

...but before the first round everyone is tied for first.


Except for Atwood. He's tied for DFL. :D

Gee Mini, with friends like you...............

:D

Gee Mini, with friends like you...............



....who needs teammates? :)

LMAO!

...I'm not saying that a wide open course with nothing but 800 ft holes will be the best course in the world. It won't. ...



For a good example in NC look at Crookston in Fletcher (near Asheville). It's a long, but wide open course. Avg hole length is 479. But it's boring. You just chuck it over the field, walk and chuck it again. There are few obstacles. It would help you increase your length, but that's about it.

When the new ratings get posted (soon), the top 16 players in the world includes 3 players each from Wisconsin, Florida, N. Carolina, California and Scandanavia plus one from Colorado.

Well we knew the 3 from Wisconsin already. haha

This may be connected with Atwood's concern about Texas golfers:

<table border="1"><tr><td> Top 25 Fattest Cities</td></tr><tr><td>2004 Ranking </td><td>Last year
</td></tr><tr><td>1. Detroit </td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>2. Houston </td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td>3. Dallas </td><td>9
</td></tr><tr><td>4. San Antonio </td><td>13
</td></tr><tr><td>5. Chicago </td><td>2
</td></tr><tr><td>6. Fort Worth </td><td>16
</td></tr><tr><td>7. Philadelphia </td><td>4
</td></tr><tr><td>8. Arlington </td><td>NR
</td></tr><tr><td>9. Cleveland </td><td>6
</td></tr><tr><td>10. Columbus </td><td>8
</td></tr><tr><td>11. Atlanta </td><td>7
</td></tr><tr><td>12. Mesa </td><td>19
</td></tr><tr><td>13. Oklahoma City </td><td>23
</td></tr><tr><td>14. Kansas City </td><td>22
</td></tr><tr><td>15. Miami </td><td>24
</td></tr><tr><td>16. Las Vegas </td><td>18
</td></tr><tr><td>17. Indianapolis </td><td>12
</td></tr><tr><td>18. Phoenix </td><td>14
</td></tr><tr><td>19. Tulsa </td><td>25
</td></tr><tr><td>20. Memphis </td><td>21
</td></tr><tr><td>21. New York </td><td>15
</td></tr><tr><td>22. New Orleans </td><td>11
</td></tr><tr><td>23. Baltimore </td><td>20
</td></tr><tr><td>24. El Paso </td><td>17
</td></tr><tr><td>25. Washington </td><td>25
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>

I see Houston's diet is starting to payoff, Austin is still slim and trim, but the trend in the metroplex is weighing heavily in the porker's favor.

Come to think of it though, I don't see a lot of fat golfers.

And how are those rankings determined?

Saw this on the news this morning, and I don't doubt that Houston is one of the unhealthiest cities in the US. I know I breathe better when I go out of town.


(Interestingly, Texas does have 3 of the top US Ultimate club teams, across all divisions.)

(Pretty scientific criteria: Smoothy Kings were counted as bad but artery-choking deli's where not counted. Krispy Cremes but not Philly Cheese Steaks)

I travel the country constantly, mostly East Coast (EC) but I think I can weigh in on this subject:
A. Houston has the best food in the freakin world. All types, all the time.
2. Houston has 8 months/year where the temp tops 90 almost daily (hard to get motivated for that 5-mile run ain't it?)
4. My experience with playing courses from CT to FL includes the entire EC. These courses are by far more technical on average. I meet players with monster arms all over the place, pure distance is not the answer to the question. On most of the East coast courses they will only have 1 or 2 holes in which to show off that power, the rest of the course requires finesse. I believe that ECers have to develop their finesse game early as Ams with a wide variety of shots. Houston players can get away with RHBH on the majority of holes. As a result, although most players have good RHBHs, most people I see (pros too) don't have 5 ways to approach a hole, they may have 2 or 3.
#. I also believe that short, technical holes give players chances at lots and lots and lots of long putts from all kinds of angles and terrain.

That's my 2 ozs.

Besides, I don't trust breathing any air I can see.