At the Homie a guy in my group threw a hyzer over the lake that hit one of the water's edge trees on its way back towards land. From the tee we could not tell whether it dropped in the water or made it to land. He said, "I'll take a provisional," and threw another drive.

Fortunately, we did not find the disc on dry land and were able to agree that it landed in the water. Therefore, we did not have a rules issue.

Suppose we had found the first drive on dry land, under our rules the provisional is a practice throw, is it not? After all, we do not have a rule like USGA 27-1. (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/rules_of_golf.html) Suppose further that the disc was over two meters in a tree and over land. Now he gets a two-stroke penalty and he plays from under the tree?

Lastly, we never saw the disc actually go in the water. We did not hear a big splash. We never saw it in the water when we were looking for it. It is conceivable that it could have been hung up in a tree or hiding in the weeds. Under these circumstances can a player retee with the stroke penalty or does he have to play it as a lost disc?

I've read the rules so I think I know the answers, but maybe you know better answers.

If he declared a provisional, then I don't think that his second drive is a practice throw. The provisional is used just incase he didn't make it on dry land.

Scenario 1
First drive hits tree and is unsure if it is dry or not. The player takes a provisional and retees. The group walks around and finds his original drive did land IB. The provisional is null and he can retreive his second drive(unless that didn't make it)

Scenario 2
He takes the provisional, the group walks and can't find the disc. If the group can find his retee, that would be his drive, and his next shot would be for a circle 4.

I think since he calls for a provisional just incase he didn't make it over, he automatically forfits the "last place IB" spot.

Great question Bruce!

Read up on your rules folks, it isn't an easy answer (or is it?).

Remember the misdirection trick...

The_Cheat's answer assumes that we have a rule like USGA 27-2. I'm curious if a lot of players think we have rule like that.

Something like this happened to me at Mooky's Cup.

I threw a drive and I shanked it over a parking lot. Everyone in my group figured it would be OB and the placement of last IB wouldn't be in a great spot. So I reteed.

But when I got up to where my disc should have landed, we saw that it was in fact inbounds(don't ask me how...cause we had all figured it landed in the parking lot). After some discussion, we determined that my second drive was a practice throw and I would mark my lie from the original drive.

They said that if I actually declared a provisional, then I wouldn't have had the practice throw added to my score for the hole.

Well "They" are wrong.

Read the rule. It's 803.00 C. (3)

The provisional is only used if the player disagrees with the group's majority decision. It's not used when the group can't tell from the tee pad.

Now, if the group had called the shot OB, and the player disagreed, he could take a provisional, but that's not true in the case where everyone says "umm, I don't know what happened, and I'm too lazy to walk around the lake and look".

It's common in league play to allow a "provisional" from the tee when a shot 400 feet away might be out of bounds. This attitude spills over into tournament play, but shouldn't.

Jim,

You really are a party pooper. Bruce spent all that time figuring out diversionary scenarios and you just have to jump in and cut it down to the white meat, don't you? ;)

It's a good question though. I especially like the P30 Space Demogulator PGA link. Not having really gone throw it as I normally do yet, there may be some unforeseen gap, but it does seem to hinge on the correct (or incorrect) use of a "Provisional Shot".

Regards,
Nick

803.0 C

(3) If an official is not readily available, the group shall proceed in one of two ways. The group may reach a majority decision with the benefit of the doubt going to the thrower, and continue play. Alternatively, if the thrower does not wish to continue play under the group's majority decision, the thrower may declare a provisional. When proceeding under a provisional , the thrower shall complete the hole under both possible rulings. The scores from both sets of throws shall be recorded. The proper ruling and score are then determined by the director at the end of the round. The eventual final ruling, made by an official or the director, shall count only those throws made under the proper rules interpretation. The unused throws shall not be added to the thrower's score nor treated as practice throws. The use of provisional throws is encouraged in all situations where the thrower questions the group's or officials ruling.

Leaves alot of lee way for the group to decide the outcome I think.

The part before that is useful in giving the part you shared context. Besides, in Bruce's example there was no discussion of rules, and certainly the player didn't disagree with their finding (if they even made a finding, and saying they think it went ob without checking is not really a finding, it's silly is what it is...).

If this was not a proper use of "Provisional Shot" then what would the ruling be?

Well if it wasn't a provisional shot, then the second tee was a practice throw.

Depending on if landed IB or OB would also determine if more penalty strokes needed to be added.

Wow, this is a real eye opener for me :eek:

At the Calvert Road course we play the red tees as the mando drop spot on all missed mandos. If a player throws to the wrong side of the mando but it is not clear if they are past it or not we usually throw a provisional shot from the red tees, you are saying that if the original shot ends up safe then the "provisional" throw is a practice shot :confused:

The Provisional part of this question is nothing new. The poor implementation of the Provisional rule has been pointed out numerous times online since the rule was changed a few years back

It used to be that the Provisional could only be used if the inbounds status of a disc was uncertain. The wording was changed to allow Provisionals whenever the player disagreed with the group decision. But that still falls short of the common sense implementation that is used by ball golf, and is assumed by many players.

The lost disc / 2meters / OB part of this question is interesting, and similar to other threads. There are so many variables and so many interpretations and so many scenarios that there probably is no right answer. But I'm sure that won't stop the thread from going on for 2 or 3 months. :D

Jim,

You really are a party pooper. Bruce spent all that time figuring out diversionary scenarios and you just have to jump in and cut it down to the white meat, don't you? ;)



Well after 3 hours, and two posts containing mis-information, I couldn't take it anymore.


It's a good question though.


Absolutely. Since it contadicts what ball golf does, and goes against what appears to be a common sense usage...

Jim,

You really are a party pooper. Bruce spent all that time figuring out diversionary scenarios and you just have to jump in and cut it down to the white meat, don't you? ;)



Well after 3 hours, and two posts containing mis-information, I couldn't take it anymore.


It's a good question though.


Absolutely. Since it contadicts what ball golf does, and goes against what appears to be a common sense usage...



How so? Does it make sense to use a provisional just to avoid verifying the status of your lie?

"Um, I don't think I'm going to be able to find those 3 drives I just threw, I'd better throw another one just to be sure we can find one of them."

You aren't saying that is common sense are you Jim?

Nick, why must you use such over-the-top examples in your arguments. The common example is as described in the original post. Simply change the rule to add something like "with the agreement of the majority of the group" the player can throw a provisional. In other words, you ask and if you receive the group's permission, throw the provisional.

Are not provisionals partly about speed of play anyway? Why walk back around the lake and delay the tourney if it if the disc status is clearly in doubt, just allow provisionals.

At one point i thought that a DGRZ might comment that the second throw is a practice throw regardless of the status of the first disc, since the status of the first thrown disc had not been determined when the so-called provisional was taken. The rationale for this argument would be that since we do not have a provisional rule that would allow for a provisional throw when the status of the first thrown disc is uncertain, and since the disc had not been determined to be out of bounds when the throw was taken, all that throw could be was a practice throw.

It is not an argument I would advocate [for free, anyway] but it is an argument that would find support in the rules.

Are not provisionals partly about speed of play anyway? Why walk back around the lake and delay the tourney if it if the disc status is clearly in doubt, just allow provisionals.


Because our rules were written with no "stroke and distance" penalties at all, and when the provisional rule was last revised there was absolutely no circumstance that would have you legally re-throw from the previous spot unless that spot was right next to the OB line?

Thanks, that makes sense. I am starting to see some of the complexities. I suppose, even with the new rule about rethrowing if you went OB, I guess my described provisional would may not be a desirable option as long as the player could go to the spot the throw went OB and throw from there.

I'm glad I am not on the rules committee (lots of considerations and unintended consequences) and ecstatic that Nick isn't. ;)

Bruce, that is my interpretation, I just wanted to see what other folks thought first. (Well, except for James that is...)

I would look for "Stroke & Distance" to appear far more often in the next rules update, so provisionals for suspected OB throws may well be in our future...

And to pre-empt the whine and cheese session: Stroke & Distance removes all judgment from OB, Casual OB, Lost Discs etc. If you go ob take a stroke and rethrow, no more trying to figure out where you went out, and if you lose a disc no more of the where did we last see it guesswork, just take a stroke and throw again from where you were, which is absolutely known. Simple, precise, better.

First of all it's 'throw and distance' (TAD). The word 'stroke' isn't anywhere in our rulebook. In BG, stroke and distance is primarily for true OB (i.e. the course boundaries), without OB all over the course like in DG. They have hazards with less punitive penalty options such as relocating along the line of play. So, TAD everywhere will be a much more punitive rule if we go to strictly TAD everywhere in a game that overall has fewer shots than BG. So, as a percentage, the penalties will be quite bit more than BG.

I guess that we would be well advised to stear clear of them then, wouldn't we... ;)

If you go ob take a stroke and rethrow, no more trying to figure out where you went out, and if you lose a disc no more of the where did we last see it guesswork, just take a stroke and throw again from where you were, which is absolutely known. Simple, precise, better.



Nick, players already have that option according to 803.08

"B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from: (1) The previous lie....."

:cool:

Sorry to pop up again half off topic but I really would appreciate an answer :o

If a player lands on the wrong side of a mando and it is unclear if they have passed it or not, they absolutely should be penalized for a practice throw if they throw another shot from the mando drop area (say back at the red tees perhaps 200 feet away from the mando) and it turns out the original disc has not passed the mando. Correct?

Sorry to pop up again half off topic but I really would appreciate an answer :o

If a player lands on the wrong side of a mando and it is unclear if they have passed it or not, they absolutely should be penalized for a practice throw if they throw another shot from the mando drop area (say back at the red tees perhaps 200 feet away from the mando) and it turns out the original disc has not passed the mando. Correct?

That is correct for PDGA rules play.

But only if the TD allows it, which is very rare in my experience. If all of the "last place you guesstimate it was in bounds" or the "last place you sort of think you saw it" language were removed then there would only be Throw & Distance or Drop Zones.

I wonder if it would be within our rules for the TD to allow, under Special Conditions for players to take relief from the unplayable hazard area (OB or Casual) to IB "no closer to the hole? Might be. In either case we would be dealing with absolutes rather than judgment calls where buddies might tend, naturally, to at least want to give their friend a break on the "last place IB or seen".

Mark, "Provisional Shots" are only taken if the player does not agree with a ruling by their group members or an official and wants to take it up later with the TD. You can not declare one just to avoid checking on the physical status of the disc.

This guy could have declared a Provisional Shot if they got up to where the disc was and the group said it was OB but the player is sure that it is not. In this case he would play that first shot as if it were in and hole out, and also play a shot from the tee to hole and in just in case the TD rules that his first shot was in fact OB.

Hope that helps.

One last comment, Throw & Distance does not necessarily equal longer rounds. Yes in some cases the player may have to walk back to their last known lie, but at least they won't be playing out of usually impossible rough, so things should move along a little more smoothly in my opinion.

Thanks Bruce and Nick, I'm all set now.
I just started a thread going on the local board to "educate" the masses :D

But only if the TD allows it, which is very rare in my experience.



Wrong Nick. The player has that option unless the TD specifically disallows it.

But only if the TD allows it, which is very rare in my experience.



Wrong Nick. The player has that option unless the TD specifically disallows it.



Glad you cleared that up, otherwise people people might be confused at players meetings.