I am starting this thread so as to get these discussions of other tournament threads.

This is from Round Rock TD Vinnie Miller.

And I am spear heading with many of the Texas promoters, a solution to this over whelming problem of DISC GOLF SOLIDIFACTION. Everyone wants to do something about it and if you can come with open minds and professionally. I think we have the recourses at the very least make it better.

I am not sure what Vinnie's ideas are to fix this problem (or exacly what he thinks is a problem) but I am sure if people suggest solutions here some good things may come out of it.

Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas?

Q. If there were less tournaments whould that help turnout or just create other problems?

Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem?

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events?

Q. Are entry fees to high?

Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another?

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?

Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?

Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?

I am sure that should keep people talking for a while. I have to go, I have an event to run with 280 people this weekend :D

Thanks
Chris

Are we supposed to answer all of those questions? :D

I suspect Vinnie's concern stems from the perception that field sizes seem to be dropping. I also suspect that this is not only a Texas problem. I think Vinnie is right in that if you reduced the number of tournaments in Texas, those fewer tournaments would have bigger fields. However, I'm not sure that you can claim that "disc golf in Texas is growing" because you have fewer tournaments with larger fields.

All in all, as I usually discuss ad naseum, I personally think the problem with turnout is much deeper than "too many tournaments," but I am also often wrong. Anyways, it never hurts to discuss an issue.

You don't have to answer them all James. I really just posted it all because I get several emails from people asking me the same questions and see others posting on other threads.

I hope Vinnie gets on here and lets us know his ideas and suggestions. What does he want from all this discussion?

Is it possible to make changes as a group and who is going to tell Mr X TD that he can't run his tournament the way he has always done. That I see is a major problem. Everybody that runs tournaments at whatever size do it for a reason and won't like being told that it can't happen.

I wonder if the PDGA see a problem with so many tournaments in Texas? I am guessing no as it brings in revenue.

I don't really think this is a state-wide matter. I think it is more of a metro-area matter, meaning that one a given weekend, there might be too many tournaments in DFW, or in Houston, or wherever... but not necessarily in Texas.

To answer your questions:

Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas?
A. absolutely. the more presence the sport has, the faster it will grow. I think the real question is about having so many competing tournaments. a 1-day non-sanctioned event does not necessarily compete with a supertour. a mini does not compete with ZT10.

Q. If there were less tournaments whould that help turnout or just create other problems?
A. I don't think so, but there are pros and cons each way. For those of us who enjoy competing regularly in tournaments, most of us prefer to have a choice in format, location, TD, etc. Most of us also like having a large field to compete in...

Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem?
A. absolutely not. this sort of tounament should never really affect other, larger events. It's always good to have a venue for beginners and locals to try out the tournament atmosphere with a close-knit group and familiar surroundings.

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events?
A. It seems like both are true. For the more popular established events, turnout seems to be the same. Since there are so many new events, players have more choices and the fields will naturally be smaller.

Q. Are entry fees to high?
A. I think this is one of the things that differentiates one event from another. some events are far more expensive than the norm, and some are far cheaper. This gives one more level of motiation for making a choice. Are you looking for a high-payout high-competition event, or a more low-key, relaxed, have-fun event?

Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another?
A. see above and below :)

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?
A. I personally do. I think the TD makes a huge difference. Organization, generosity, format, and general attitude are all part of a TD's style. Some people may even take it a step further and choose a tournament b/c he or she feels that this particular TD does more for the DG community and therefore is more deserving of the support.

Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?
A. Speaking as a golfer still very solidly in the am rankings, I enjoy playing with Pros, and seeing how much I could improve on a given course... but if it comes down to a comfort or enjoyment level for either division, I'm fine with am-only events.

Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?
A. I wouldn't say *more* than anything else... but it is certainly a factor. When its hot, a course with shade (and a TD who provides water) will be my choice over the opposite. I prefer challenging courses over easy ones, and nice scenery is always good. Of course everyone has their own preferences, so different people will prefer different courses. For instance, I really love the Wimberley courses, so we made the trip down there even with all the drive time and additional expense. All for a 1-day event. There were other ZT10 events this year about the same distance for us, but the course wasn't enough of a draw.

I hope this helps... but as usual, it's just my opinion so take it for what it's worth :D

Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas?
<font color="red">i want MORE B tiers within 200 miles. drives to houston are once-a-year thing. drives to austin are several times per year.</font>

Q. If there were less tournaments whould that help turnout or just create other problems?
<font color="red">that depends on why players choose the tourneys they choose. see below.</font>

Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem?
<font color="red">not unless you like telling TDs what to do on their home courses.</font>

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events?
<font color="red">those are not mutually exclusive. nor is there necessarily a causal relationship between number of events and turnout. as we have seen in sponsorship, overall support is down, and the most commonly stated reason is the general economy. perhaps dg'ers are sticking a bit closer to home and limiting their schedule a bit.</font>

Q. Are entry fees to high?
<font color="red">imo, not at all.</font>

Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another?
<font color="red">now we're getting to the real question! for me the most important factors are:
distance to event (<200 miles = more likely to go)
reputation of event (well-run, fair & honest payouts = more likely to go)
event tier (ST,NT,A get considered up to 500miles. B's get considered up to 200 miles. C's get considered up to 50 miles. nothing else gets considered.)
length of tournament (if its not two-day, i'm not gonna go more than about 20 miles.
the schedule of my non-dg life (inlaws, birthdays, etc...)</font>

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?
<font color="red">yes, the reputation of the TD is a factor to a degree, but so is the reputation of the tourney itself.</font>

Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?
<font color="red">doesnt matter to me</font>

Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?
<font color="red">absolutely not, no way, no how.</font>


i would like to play at least one B tier or up every month, within a 150-200 mile range. as i noted before, i go further for A's and NT's, but not as frequently. I avoid C tiers because they are small, unless they are on a very local course. The other tiers are just noise as far as i am concerned, as are almost all one-day events.

Thanks Chris for getting this started!
Survey is a good resource.
Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas?
I don�t think so, turnout will be lower than it can be and if I were a big name sponsor. Why would I sponsor an event that has 50 players and 5 people in the gallery?
Q. If there were less tournaments would that help turnout or just create other problems?
Of course it would help turn out.
Look at it this way, if everyday was Christmas� how many presents would you get everyday?
Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem?
No td/club wants to run a small event on their home course. Everyone wants to fill !

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events?
Yeah they are getting smaller and yea too many events
Q. Are entry fees to high?
Sometimes and that is an easy fix.
Most people will pay / as long as they are benefited at the level of $
Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another?
Many factors.
Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?
Of course
Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?
Separate! Pros have different expectations, than am do
And bald guys like to play with pros to WATCH and Learn.
And that is the answer to � how do you get bigger galleries at pro events.�
Because you have to keep in mind what is the benefit to a big named sponsor.
Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?
Of course
Like I said earlier, I am listing, compiling and expressing my ideas......Cause something has GOT to give.

Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas?
A: Depends. As has been said previously, some C-Tiers occur simply to open a new course and are seriously meant to be small and quite local. Personally, I can't answer this one. I pick the tourney based on its past tournout, proximity, fun factor, and whether I can make it that weekend.

Q. If there were less tournaments whould that help turnout or just create other problems?
Again, it depends on whether the tournament was meant to be small and local or trying to be the "next big bad-[*****] tournament" by stealing some luster away from a tournament the same or close weekend.

Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem?
Not at all, as long as they consider the timing of tournaments already on the calendar if they are within an hour or so of another tournament. Why not put it the next weekend so that people can play both? If both are to be one-day long, why not have one Saturday and one Sunday?

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events?
Turnouts of some individual tournaments seem to have been smaller this year, but overall, there is more competitive participation as it appears to me

Q. Are entry fees to high?
Pro: No. Am:Depends on the tourament, tier, and what is intended to be used for payout. If you're paying $75 for an advanced A-tier where there are ~30 players, the winner damned well better take home a good-sized payout! Some would argue to take away Amateur payout all together, but I think it's made this sport unique in getting its equipment to its players. It's already been done this way for some time, and honestly, I think it would be a bad idea to take it away.

Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another?
See above. Quality of the tournament, turnout, proximity, courses played, schedule, TD, payout expectation, and most importantly fun factor are all factors.

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?
Yes, who else has a $30,000 ace hole?!? I think it does make a difference, but not as much as the other factors as above, although the TD is the one with the most influence on those factors!

Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?
Depends on how many people will show up. If Pros and Ams can both be accomodated, why separate the events?!? I do see where this is leading though. Say there are 20 combined events a year. If we instead did 10 pro and 10 am, would they have better payout and turnout for the respective divisions? Probably so. If some of those 20 weren't going to be very big enough for a good payout anyway, what's the point in spliting them up?

Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?
Again, see above! It can, but usually the most important thing for me is "how close is it?" I usually try to take 2-3 road trips a year for weekend tournaments, but I'd like to play in Worlds in 2005 or 2006.

Good grief, look at the posts that were done while I was making mine whilest working!

Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?
Separate! Pros have different expectations, than am do
And bald guys like to play with pros to WATCH and Learn.
And that is the answer to � how do you get bigger galleries at pro events.�
Because you have to keep in mind what is the benefit to a big named sponsor.


I agree that watching from a gallery can be fun, but how often is this an option? This weekend's ZT10 is a good opportunity to watch since the pro event is the day after the am event. Events like the Waco Charity Open and the VPO (still great events, don't get me wrong) will not draw the same kind of gallery of ams since the two events are totally seperate. I have played in events that had a final 9 for the top Pros, and I usually stay to watch that, even if I haven't cashed.

I guess I'm trying to say that combining the events can still be a good thing. As for what ams expect vs. pros... I know alot of us ams really don't like the fact that Pros are so catered to. On one hand, it is good to reward the best players in the game with special treatment... but on the other hand, some tournaments add all the sponsor cash to the pro divisions. They go above and beyond the PDGA requirements for pros, only satisfying the minimum tier requirements for ams. Many of these tournaments seem to put the pros on such a pedestal that the ams are pretty much just an afterthought. If ever I have played a tournament like this... I have not returned.

Just a thought, but I think the fact that ams expect less from tournaments speaks to the way ams are treated in alot of cases. If you never give a dog steak, he's always happy with his dried dog food.

I really think the bottom line is the economy. I know I would go to all the tournaments if I could afford them all. Although this year did kind of get tiring, so Don and I probably would prefer about one a month rather than one every weekend.

Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas? see above.
A. It is not so bad for the players. It gives us more choices.
Although, it does affect field size, which is disappointing.

Q. If there were less tournaments whould that help turnout or just create other problems?
A. I don't see what problems it would create.

Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem?
A. I don't see what problem that is.

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events?
A. Both. There have been smaller turnouts, especially to the B & C tiers I've attended since the summertime.

Q. Are entry fees to high?
A. Yes, often they are. I like the new 2005 PDGA Changes in which TD's have to prove fees higher than the maximum set for each tier is worth it.

Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another?
A. Don and I choose based on 1) whether we can afford it, 2) whether we have other commitments for that date, 3) our personal feelings about the course/TD, and 4) who else is going to be there...in that order.

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?
A. see reason # 3 in selection of tournaments.

Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?
A. Yes and no. The only reason I see for a "no" answer is it being tough on couples/families traveling where there is more than one player in a family and one is Pro/the other is Am. Other than that, it is better on the TD, volunteers, and players.

Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?
A. see reason # 3 in selection of tournaments.

The juices are flowing!
Bottom line we need to work together!
And not like the last TD alliance. I mean real sacrifices and real involvement. If you are a td or promoter, Sit down and put some thought on paper and share it with other td/promoters. I really like tour bonus leading to a final and some events need to go to divisional only status. For example. Outlaws is pro only and pecan open is an am only.
This may incourage am player to go to Pecan, because Outlaws has no ams. Which in turn, pecan would have a bigger am turnout and would make more money from the retail/wholesale profit line. And since Outlaws did not offer am and drove the am base bigger for the pecan thing."Heres the part where some people will not like cause they are unable to see the big picture" Pecan could give Outlaws a small percentage of their retail/wholesale profit line to Outlaws. If this example is followed by �lets say� 15 events. This would create less events for the ams and pros to schedule to attend. And would increase the turnouts as well as the payouts. Lots to hash out and don't hate me for picking the scab. The sore was already there.

I like Vinnie's idea, and only really have one issue...I like to play different courses, and have yet to be able to play Outlaws because of personal stuff on that weekend. What if I wanted to play both as an Am (or Pro)?

I don't think it's just a TX problem.

Choices are good, but at what cost?

For example:

The AM VPO weekend has always been one of the largest PDGA AM tournaments in the nation. This year it was not. Why? We were asked to reschedule our "normal" weekend in order to better serve the PDGA and the touring players.

So, this year, our AM weekend was up against OCTOBERFRIZ in KS, a nonsanctioned event 300 miles from DFW. The AM VPO had no Okies for the 1st time ever!!!! I can't blame them, i was a FRIZ goer 6 years straight until the USDGC came about.

It was also up against a little c-tier, or b-tier in South Texas, which gave the Houston, Austin, and San Antonio crowds an option to stay a little closer to home. Options are good....staying close to home is good.......but at what cost? :confused:

The Pro VPO suffered as well. Due to the low turnout AM weekend, the money raised for the Pro event was a little under par(which is not good when it comes to $$$ :)) Not only has it been one of the longest running supertours in the area, but the caliber of the field has always been incredible. Not so this year......yeah, we had the World Champ, and a former one, but where was the rest of the tour? Taking a break after the long and exhausting USDGC? Probably so.

If you also look at some of the PRO players that have preregistered for the TX10 final, you will notice that a lot of them usually attend the VPO. Why not this year? Back to back weekends from Austin, or Houston to DFW are draining and expensive. That's understandable.......i mean...there is a $30,000 ace pot!!!!!!! If i could only do one, which do you think it would be? :D:D

This is America, competition is good! It's the American way. Is it the best for our sport? Only time will tell.........

So it is clear.
When I say separate weekends for pros and ams.
I mean do it pro only or am only. Not one weekend am then the next pro. PRO/AM events should be schedule. But they should not be the norm.
Much like ball golf and I can safely say they have been very successful with their businesses plan.

to answer you question.
If you like playing differnet courses do so. it may just be for that course's mini and not their event. And if you want to play that event and its pro only / step up. If you are a pro that wants to play that course and its an am only. Play that course. It just will not be a tournament for you it maybe their mini.

:confused:

I'm not sure why traveling pros did not come to VPO and States this year. Both were added cash events... I am correct that the Texas Ten Finale is only added cash for the pros if they played four qualifiers right?

I REALLY hate how the pro portion of the A-tier tour for Texas got pushed to right after the USDGC. Are touring pros really going to come all the way from Charlotte to Houston right after that event. I think the VPO was affected by this as well, and that is a real shame since both areas dedicate so much time to raise the added cash for the pro field.

I did not look up who was at the Sunday Corpus event that ran against AM VPO, but I doubt it drew any players who would have made it up to VPO AM. I don�t believe a single Houston player made it down that way.

I am correct that the Texas Ten Finale is only added cash for the pros if they played four qualifiers right?



No. $500 is added to Open Pro (all players) as the PDGA B-tier requirements dictate. That money is over and above any other tour bonues. Next year we will be back to a A-tier as we were last year. With over $15,000 total added in cash and merch alone the PDGA would love TX10 to be a A-tier.

Texas States in Houston asked to be moved to that date so they could increase their field size but it didn't. There must be other reasons not just the date. It also didn't help the number of large events in that month as relative to last year.

VPO and TX10 have for the last 3 years had no problem with both getting good turnouts as back to back weekends and they are in the same metroplex. You can also add in the OO to that.

One thing for TD's and clubs can do to attract more players is actually promote the event. Tell people why they should play and maybe they just will. Don't just rely on history, tell people the benefits of playing a particular tournament. There are lots of other things but thats for another time.

Vinnie can you give more examples (in English this time :)) of events that can link up?

Thanks
Chris

I'm liking Vinnie's suggestions too.

As an AM who lives in Austin, I could choose to drive to Nekkidroaches for the Pecan Park Open. Hotel$$, gas$$, and food$$.

Or, I might choose to stay home and pay a little higher entry fee and test my skill at a Pro only tournament...and still end up saving $$$ lots of money.

And now that AMs under 955 can move freely between divisions, it truly gives more options.

I am working on a business plan.

I wonder if the PDGA see a problem with so many tournaments in Texas? I am guessing no as it brings in revenue.

It is not just Texas. We just finished our scheduling process for Michigan and there is a tournament every weekend. In the summer months there are two or three. Two of the groups that run tournaments did not attend the meeting so there are about seven more tournaments that we don't know about yet. And Michigan is only about 1/3rd the size of Texas.

I don't think it is an issue Texans want the PDGA regulating. The strong will survive. The weak can move to New Mexico. We need more tournaments in New Mexico. And Old Mexico! :D

Just as a caution, shouldn't we know exactly how much/if the fields are decreasing and why before we conclude the primary reason is too many tournaments? In order to understand the phenomenon (if it exists), it seems like you should identify people that have dropped out and ask them. I don't know that you will ever get honest answers, nor do I suspect that people even know exactly why they lost interest, but they should be asked.

For example, suppose it is the cost of entry fees? Is fewer tournaments, all at the same price going to make any difference to them?

Like I said before, fewer tourneys will probably increase the field size, but if the same players that have dropped out play 2 tourneys rather than 0 and the frequent players play 10 instead of 20, what was accomplished?

James,

Here's some folks that missed the VPO this year, but have played the VPO within the last 3 years that are in the TX10 final this weekend.

Rob Knight
Alan Kubala
Mike Olse
Chris Albert
Bryan James
Jim Davidson
Steve Lawty
Jay Reading
Joe Hague
JD Ramirez
Chris Ware
Glen Hale
Mike Kennedy
Jerry Perez
Ron Sillimen..................

just to name a few.

Now, for those that do not live in the DFW area, it's either too expensive, or too draining to make it to DFW on back to back weekends.

As for the folks that live here that did not make it, it must be due to back to back entry fee's being expensive. It cost me $115 for VPO, and $85 for TX10.

I'm not looking for an arguement here, I'm just looking at some facts. Like i said earlier, if i could only play one, it would be the one that has a $30,000+ payout :D

Chris you would make a killing in New Mexico.

Myself, I have made a decision to play only PDGA sanctioned events that are at least B-tier and above for the up coming next season. I'm am going to try and travel out of state a few times just to get in more tournaments that have a large playing field. I would much more rather play against 30 or more open players than a field with 12-20 players in it.

No. $500 is added to Open Pro (all players) as the PDGA B-tier requirements dictate. That money is over and above any other tour bonues. Next year we will be back to a A-tier as we were last year.



NICE!

Personally I rarely play in anything less than a B tier unless it's right here in Town. I try to play in Most of Gimp's events that I can make it to...sometimes scheduling doesnt' allow that as I've already missed 2 of them this year :(

Do the amount of tournaments hurt turnout....probably. As has been said, if there is a tournament in both Houston and DFW none of those locals are going to travel. It doesn't matter what the tier is.

Also, it is rare that I will travel for a 1 day event unless something else in my schedule has me in the same place. Unfortunately it seems like the 2 day events that I've been to have less turnout than the 1 day events.

I would love to make it to more events in Austin or DFW, but from the few I've been to away I haven't been very impressed. Even the A tiers I've traveled to seemed to leave a little to be desired.

I think seperating the Pro's from the Am's is a bad idea. I know I like to watch the Pros play. The way to let us Am's watch the Pros is to use tee times on the final round. At Texas States I was able to watch the pro lead card play a good 12 holes because of this.

It seems to me that travel is the biggest deterrant to people playing in events. Maybe have more 2 day A tier tournaments more spread out would help things? But then, few TD's seem to want to run a 2 day A tier tournament.

Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas?
A. Don�t know. Right now it doesn�t look like it. New events have come up and crowded a full schedule. And that�s just the sanctioned/TX10 events. This is a loaded question, based on the recent tourneys�

Q. If there were fewer tournaments would that help turnout or just create other problems?
A. Turnouts would go up, but I don�t think that�s the biggest problem. To me, entry fees and the competitive inequities in the system are the problem, but that�s another thread.

Q. Some TDs and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem?
A. No, but they shouldn�t be running these events as B-Tiers or two-day C-Tiers. Coordinating some of the closer events to run on the same weekend (Saturday-Sunday) would be great and folks could make a weekend of it. Entry fees would have to be kept down, but these are small tournaments, right? A strike against this idea is the lack of turnout for Sunday events after TX10s (and GCCS events).

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events?
A. Yes to both. The number of events has increased, which has negatively affected turnouts. However, even if the tourney count was static, I think we�d still see smaller turnouts, just not as dramatic. Is it the economy? Entry fees? Disc Golfers being typically cheap? Or �too many tournaments,� a quote I hear often at events.

Q. Are entry fees too high?
A. YES, for both Am and Pro. Would more Pros play (and more people play Pro) if entry fees were lower? Yes. Then the missing dollars for the Pro Purse would show back up via the larger field size. If Ams are worried about payout only over overall value (course, event, amenities, payout, etc.), let them play Pro or drop out (or volunteer for an event). Lower entry fees will keep tournament players playing and probably pick up a few more along the way. I am biased in this regard, as I would still attend events statewide if all Ams were playing for trophies (and a small players pack�ie, a true Am setup).

Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another?
A. We choose based on course, TD, entry fees, and overall cost�in that order. Payout doesn�t get factored in positively or negatively, but if players aren�t getting overall value then we do consider it. If an event doesn�t measure in our opinion, we�ll consider another event at the same course. Granted, Kat and I aren�t typical Am golfers�we�d still be doing this under the setup mentioned above.

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?
A. Yes, we have.

Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?
A. No, unless the event is always filling with Ams. In the cases like Waco, being an NT event, it also makes sense to give the Pros their own time, without the Am circus. People aren�t going to flock to spectate for the Pros, and local Ams who would play that event will find other places and things to do. Plus, when you consider the attitudes of some Pros, why would we want to watch them?

Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?
A. It is a big factor. A good course most often naturally leads to a good event, whereas on a bad/mediocre course it is harder to create a good event, even with a great TD. Plus, if it's a new course (or new to us) we'll more likely play it.

Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?



The two biggest factors, in order of consideration, when deciding on what tournaments to play are: course and then the TD.

There are certain courses that I will always travel to play anytime there is a tournament. These include: Victoria, Live Oak, Gonzalez (best course that almost nobody has ever played), Round Rock, San Saba, Waco, and Red Rock.

Similarly, I try to attend as many tournies run by Gimp or Himing as I can. I know that they will be well attended, well run, with an above and beyond effort to ensure that all players have a high perceived value/return.

Bottom line we need to work together!
And not like the last TD alliance. I mean real sacrifices and real involvement



Slow down there dude! :mad:

Were you even at the last TD Alliance? No! Were you invited to share all these ideas and plans at that time? Yes! Did certain people put a lot of work and real time into making that a potentially positive thing? Yes! Did you no-show after commiting to be there? Yes! Did some great ideas come to the table because certain people gave of themselves and their time to make that get-together happen? Yes! Is it those peoples fault that the disc golf braintrust in Texas is alot more about talk than action? No!

Think before you type brutha.

i agree with bender. most events have to hold the overall quality for me to try and schedule the event into my "approved calendar" for the year.

payout is never a factor and like bender said, would travel to a quality event if there were trophies only for prize.

here are some events in texas i will go back to next year and will be first on my list for approval. :D

coto
red rock show
waco open NT
waco ams
world doubles
texas state doubles am

these events hold a great overall quality to me.

I think he is referring to a previous LSDGA TD alliance.

He's been around longer than you or I.

I also agree with Mr. Bender. There are other factors keeping the field sizes from getting bigger. Too many tournaments in a short time span still does have an impact, however. The ones that I try to have on the schedule each year are:

Big Show (Am weekend)
Big Show (Pro/Am)
ZT-10 (any in DFW or Waco...possibly beyond if "schedule" permits!
World Am Doubles
Pecan Park Open
Waco Charity Open
Veteran's Park Open
Carrollton Open
Texas State Championship

...and possibly any others that are within 1.5 hours of DFW. I'll drive up to 4 hours away with the exception of Am Worlds...I'd like to go sometime in the next few years before I have kids.

AMS always say payout is never a factor, but look at the KC Wide Open threads and the recent Texas States thread...

Q. Are entry fees too high?
A. YES, for both Am and Pro. Would more Pros play (and more people play Pro) if entry fees were lower? Yes. Then the missing dollars for the Pro Purse would show back up via the larger field size. If Ams are worried about payout only over overall value (course, event, amenities, payout, etc.), let them play Pro or drop out (or volunteer for an event). Lower entry fees will keep tournament players playing and probably pick up a few more along the way. I am biased in this regard, as I would still attend events statewide if all Ams were playing for trophies (and a small players pack�ie, a true Am setup).




Bingo! and Bravo!

Still, it ****** me off the way that read.

Did anyone step up this year to capitalize on the momentum of last year, when I said after organizing, promoting and running last year's that I wasn't gonna do it this year?

Did anyone try to group together with discussions or plans outside of the event I ran last year without me or someone else to prod them to do so?

BTW, Vinnie, I still have the participants plaque from the TD Alliance Conference/Tournament that Gary made for you last year that you didn't show up to get. Want me to mail it?

gosh, looks like no more puttin lessons for mark. whew! my dynasty is safe :D:D:D

Thread boost

All of the unsanctioned events listed here are larger organized events with historically significant turnout.

There are already 5 sanctioned events and 2 unsanctioned events scheduled for January 2005

7 sanctioned and 3 unsanctioned events in February

6 sanctioned and 3 unsanctioned events (plus Easter) in March

8 sanctioned and 4 unsanctioned events in April.

One weekend in April has 4 sanctioned events and all of them are outside of the 200 mile exclusion zones from each other.

Any Suggestions ?

Gary,
When will the events that are pending for Texas be up on the 2005 schedule on the LSDGA web site? I'm interested in planning next year's schedule.

Thanks

That's scary Gary....

Here's another question to consider.
Should Texas be broken into 2 regions (like NoCal and SoCal)?

Work together on the big events (A+ tiers) and try to coordinate everything else?

Just another thought kicking around. A clean demarcation line would be a problem at first glance.

Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas?
<font color="red"> I am torn on this, on the one hand I say there are too many events, but on the other hand I have contributed to this. I think it is going to be a tough job telling anyone that their event is not cutting it and it needs to be eliminated from the schedule. </font>

Q. If there were less tournaments would that help turnout or just create other problems?
<font color="red"> If an event is eliminated it will likely be replaced with another. I believe that this is all symptoms of growth, as time passes and we see more people joining us as players (new players) then all of these events will again be full. I think there is a deeper problem here, it is money and the lack of it in people's pockets. I have been paying close attention to this as it effects me directly, and I keep hearing about Delta laying off 2000 people in our area, Bank One eliminating 1000's of jobs in a merger and so on.....this is effecting things and it is not an effect that comes with a warning sign.</font>

Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem?
<font color="red"> As long as they all want to work together then it is not a problem, but that is easier said than done in many cases. I think that we all want to see the same end results, why work against each other? </font>

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events?
<font color="red"> Yes turnouts are getting smaller, this is happening all across the country. There is also more events in most areas, and many factors that will contribute to this. It doesn't take much research to see that it is true, attendance is down across the board. </font>

Q. Are entry fees to high?
<font color="red"> It depends if you want to continue to see large payouts, and almost all of you do. It is very apparent that there is no perceived value in an event if there is not a big payout to many of you. The good times that you have during all hours of the weekend have no value at all if you don't get what you think you have coming in the payout. None of the new friends or the birdie you never got before on hole X,Y,or Z has any value to you if your not rewarded with a big stack of discs on Sunday afternoon. This must be why most of us do not play ball golf, because there is no value what so ever to a $50 round with your friends on a cart at a beautiful facility.....right?!? </font>

Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another?
<font color="red"> This could be an infinite answer. </font>

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?
<font color="red"> In some cases yes and in others no. I play to compete and enjoy the course and event. I don't consider the weather when I decide to play a tournament, that is something that I consider at the time it is necessary. I support events based on the hope that it will contribute to growth of the sport and the event. For instance I have gone to Houston for TX States every year, (I may have missed the first one, I can't remember) I hate Houston, If I never go there again in my life it will be too soon. But I will always support the HFDS and any Supertour they run, so I have to suck it up and go because I believe that is the least that any one of us can do if we have ever said "I can't wait until disc golf gets big". If you don't go then apparently you can wait.</font>

Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?
<font color="red"> I am not sure how this will help. I do however think that in the next year or two while attendance is down that some of the events that have separated to two weekends in peak times should go back to one weekend until they can again fill more holes with players than one weekend will accommodate. This is something that will be easier to tell a TD than "your event is not cutting it and it needs to be eliminated". </font>

Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?
<font color="red"> In certain cases. I think that there are big events that are held at courses that are not worthy of big events, as well as there being great courses that don't have any events at all. </font>

Here are a few other things that I would like to share with you.

First and foremost, we are the solution to all of these problems. We are the only thing in this sport we can count on. Sponsership changes from year to year, and we aren't in any position to command any sponsership that will solve any of these problems yet.

If you see something that can be improved or you think is wrong, the way to handle it is not to talk about in the parking lot to your buddies or air it out on the message board especially if you haven't talked to the person that can solve the problem, who is usually the TD. Find a tactful way and time to talk it over with the person or person's who can solve the problem. Witch hunts are not the solution.

The only thing that we can count on from year to year is ourselves. If you think that getting the "Big Fish Stick Co." to sponsor DG is going to take us to the next level you are in for a long and reward-less ride. We don't have big enough numbers to warrant the support we dream of yet. Even an event with 280 people plus all the rest of the series is not enough pull to have Budweiser willing to say "Yes Chris, we will write you the check again for next year", he was still waiting for and sweating the answer last Friday when I talked to him, it may be different now I don't know. But if we had the loyalty and large groups of people they want to see the checks would already be in the bank.

The only thing that we can count on from year to year is the self generated economy that comes from sales of all disc golf merch. The rest is gravy and should be seen as such, if you are hungry and you get biscuits and no gravy, don't sit there and say I'm not going to eat this without gravy and stay hungry. That is a different way of saying your part in this is to participate, don't stay away and talk things down, get out and contribute in any way you can, the most basic way is to pay your entry fee and play.

There are many reasons for all of the things that are going on and as I stated earlier they are all growing pains. There is far more talk than action in this sport from this side of the discussion. These things all require you to make a decision and do one thing or another. Your decision to go and play or go and watch the pro's is a fine example. It sounds cool, but when it comes down to it for some unknown reason the decision is usually made to play instead of going to watch even at USDGC when it is well know that all of the best players will be there.

Before you get all riled up about my hate for Houston, it is really the climate and the misery that you go through in that climate I hate. It is certainly not hate for the people who live there. :)

Here's another question to consider.
Should Texas be broken into 2 regions (like NoCal and SoCal)?




That has pretty much already taken place from my viewpoint. The only prob is that there is no organization in it.

I could be way off base here but it looks to me like Texas could be seperated into 4 regions(N., S., Cen., E.). With some Sacrifice and good oranization I could see reginal series', regional finals, bi-regional evnts, Regional Team events etc. all culminating in a huge State Championship. Just my $0.02.

The events are already up on the LSDGA site.

LSDGA Schedule (http://www.lsdga.com/txschd.php)

The first page only shows the next three weeks or so.
Click either of the links on the first page for the everything from today to the end of the calendar.

Or go to the history link and select a 2005 schedule from there.

Good post Chris. This maybe a problem we need to look at but I don't really think anything will be done about it. Maybe just that most of the players will realize what does go on behind the TD desk.

<font color="red"> Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas? </font>
I don't think so. Unless it is a case where one tournament fills every year so another tournament is allowed to be held on that weekend. (IE, events that limit fields to 90 player almost al

<font color="red">Q. If there were less tournaments whould that help turnout or just create other problems? </font>
Yes, I think turnout would be better with fewer tournaments.

<font color="red">Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem? </font> Note really, the problem comes from when they want to pull outside players. Even then, some players will play a local event rather than travel.

<font color="red">Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events? </font>
There are more players playing every weekend. They are just split between more tournaments.

<font color="red">Q. Are entry fees to high? </font>
YES, entry fees are getting out of controle for the larger events. I will never pay $125 to play an A-tier in the Pro division when I have little to no chance of even winning my money back.

<font color="red">Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another? </font> Mostly the course it is on for me. Do I like playing that course. I love Athens, but I do not like ZBoaz. If having to choose between events on both of these courses, I would always choose Athens. (note, I don't play well at ZBoaz, it is not a course that plays to my type of game, ZBoaz is a good course, just not where I will play all the time)

<font color="red">Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD? </font> Sort of. Good events area always a reflection on who the TD is. There are some events that I will not play because of the TD. Track history and payouts are usually the reason I don't play these events. But with sooo many choices in Texas, It does not effect my ability to play an event.

<font color="red">Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined? </font> NO, only for HUGE events like A-tiers held on small courses like Vet or Waco. Houston has the right idea with using several courses in one area. I do not like to play Pro only events.

<font color="red">Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else? </font> Very much so. I made it a point to qualify for the Texas 10 finals this year. When picking the 4 tournaments to play, I picked the ones in the DFW area and 2 outside of this area.

I was unable to play the Lewisville opener even though I did come out for a visit in the afternoon. I then played Wichita Falls because I love the course and love the guys who play there. (brotherly love not sexual)

I then played Arlington and actually cashed :DLast place money.

I Played Wimberly because I had never played there.

I played Dallas because it was local and I wanted to play Flag Pole hill.

Now I am looking forward to this weekend. I usually don;t play either of theses courses very well, but I am not going for the top 3rd, only the top 50% of the qualified players to get some of the that $1,800 added.

Oh yea, and a shot at $30,000.


Other than that, I played a MaceMan food drive tournament on my home courses. I had to tote my kids around on the last few holes on Jimmy Porter, wound up leading the tournament, Sold Pizzas for lunch at Jimmy Porter, got over to Greenbelt 10min before the round started, my wife had not shown up to get the kids and I had to push my 2 year old around for 13 holes.

But that is not the reason I only got last place. I was worn out from not playing. The kid did great and the guy who yelled at me for having him with me even made the comment on the 12th hole of how good he was. But that is another story.

I also tried to play some other events this year.

I wanted to play the Denton Open, but it fell on a weekend I was going out to Tenn to see my family. (good thing because both my Grandfather and Grandmother passed away this last month)

I did play the McKinney tournament, Alex Clark Memorial, of course this tournament is a fundraizer for the Carrollton Open and I was not only handling disc sales but payout as well.

More recently, I had been planning on playing Texas States as my October tournament. But things chained when I had to replace the compressor on my Walk-in. (over $2000) I also had to come up with $2300 for my health insurance that was due on November 1st. (I just paid it yesterday)

When I figured I better skip Houston, I figured I would play the little Event run by Tom Lawry. I was going to play that until 3pm on friday when I got the call my grandmother passed away, I drove to Tenn 8 hours later.

Now as far as this weekend, I hurt my arm on Monday night at the store. It was still hurting yesterday, and feels sore today. I will not even be throwing a disc until Saturday when I deside if I can play or withdraw from the event.

Thanks for the update Gary D. Now I can start planning. I don't think Don and I will be able to go to as many events as we did this year.
See ya' Saturday morning with my box of Rocs. :)

I don't have an answer for all those questions, but as for entry fees, they could definitely be reduced in my opinion. I would be willing to sacrifice some payout for less entry. Lately, I have only played events that are close to home base, simply because I cannot afford entry fees AND travel. And as an am, I do not play simply for payout, but compensation for the entry fee plus expenses does make it more worth my while. Competition is the main appeal of tournaments for me, and you can only get that certain kind of comp at weekend events, and I play every event to win, but plastic aint free, so receiving some prizes (NOT trophies) is necessary, even if it is just a few discs. Also, speaking as an am who played only pro events for a while, the pro entries are too high as well. Lowering of some of these would definitely allow for bigger fields, larger payouts, more sponsors, etc., and entice more ams to move up and play a pro event, even if there was only a minimal chance they might cash. I believe playing in pro fields is more enjoyable, and you get to play alongside some of the best players who you might never get the chance to play with again, but I just couldn't afford the expenses involved and also not be able to afford buying new plastic, so I went back to play am events.

Of course, the new rule regarding amateur status (which I am not to savvy on, yet. Enlightenment, please??) sounds as if it should be very good for the sport, and I like the points made about amateur and pro only events if this is the case.
The point made for multiple regions is very appealing as well, with the aspect of regional finals, culminating in state finals, which could also go even further with centrally located multiple state (U.S. region events).
These are all ideas that will take time (years), and I think the rule changes and multiple events in different areas on the same weekend are all good starts, and definitely good for the sport.

Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas?
<font color="red"> This is not easy to answer. If the tournaments were working better together so as not to step on other event's toes, it would be great. Unfortunately, its a free-for-all out there on the Texas TD scene, and this is problematic. We are blessed with an active disc golf following in Texas
</font>

Q. If there were less tournaments would that help turnout or just create other problems?
<font color="red"> Sure, it might help turnout, but it would run contrary to the basic economic tenant of supply and demand. Its not realistically possible to regulate.
</font>

Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem?
<font color="red"> Sure, when they are running independently of the main disc golf organization trying to do good for the sport in the area. They often are not running just small tourneys, but are competing for the same sponsorship dollars and the same local player base. They often don't contribute back to the game or the community.
</font>

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events?
<font color="red"> I think it is obvious that turnouts are getting smaller, and the reasons are definitely both the economy and the laws of supply and demand.
</font>

Q. Are entry fees too high?
<font color="red"> For many events, Absolutely! Affordability has got to be a major factor in the decision for the "mid level" player to attend, whether pro or am. Top players will "gamble" on higher entry fees if they believe their chance for success is good. Others will not, unless the festival experience is worth the extra cost, not only from the event, but from the surrounding community (ie hotel, restaurants, things to do after round, etc.)
</font>

Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another?
<font color="red"> Obviously, this is a personal choice. For me, its the following:
- PDGA Sanctioned? I will very rarely attend a non-sanctioned event on principle.
- Hosted by Club or For Profit TD? see below
- Atmosphere? If the event doesn't do what's needed to enhance the player experience, I won't consider it. That means things like a) groomed course with water out there, b) social atmosphere around hdqtrs to chat and enjoy people's company, c) games/CTPs/music/food/flymart, to keep people's attention, d) scoring info posted promptly
- Support for Juniors & Women - many of us have families, and the only way we can attend events regularly is if the whole family enjoys themselves, whether it be playing, or at some of the side games like Rings of Fire, Mini Golf, etc.
- Payout - has to be fair, and when payout is not done on the backs of the player, but on added benefits from sponsors, that helps. As a Pro, I am not going to pay $50 or more to gamble with my buds for our same money, unless I just happen to be in the mood. If there is no attention paid to pros, I won't generally come.
- Player Packs and TD benefits - new discs released, host hotel deals, etc.
- Travel distance - this is the biggest factor for all of us. If you gotta spend $$ for a hotel, then it has to be a great event to come. This is why IMO 1 day events are a big hit. If I can go and come back in one day, it can be worth the effort. But don't have $75 entry fee B or A-tier events 1 day. It's also why most of us don't travel more than 2-3 hrs for an event. Its 5 hrs to Dallas for Houstonians and vice versa, while the Austin-Dallas corridor is a bit shorter and easier. This is where we need some coordinated control on Texas events IMO.
- Family/Business conflicts - I played less this year than ever. Its not getting any easier.
</font>

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?
<font color="red"> Absolutely. Is the event hosted by Club or For Profit TD? There has got to be a lot of the rest of the items before I will consider going to a for-profit TD event. If it is like all the rest of the events, with basic amentities but nothing else, then I want the profit of the event to go back into the local club/course. I and many others of us have spent a lot of countless hours in support of the game, and are not ready to support For-profit TDs unless we are sure it is being done on the sponsorship they raise, and not on the backs of us the volunteers.
</font>
Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?
<font color="red"> I think seperate Pro events do not help the game, only hurt it. Amateurs need the opportunity to see Pros in action, and seperate weekends are not going to get them to come out, whether it is two (2) 1 day events or it is the USDGC or Worlds. If they are in the area already, then they will watch if your event gives them an opportunity. Final 9s help, last round tee times are a great way to accomplish this IMO though.
</font>
Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?
<font color="red"> Surprisingly, unless the course is cheesy, it doesn't often impact my decision. I might travel farther for great courses, but otherwise they are all middle-of-road to me.
</font>

In general, there are only a handful of TDs who put forward the effort for me to attend an out-of-town event, and even then its a 25% chance at best for me to attend based on family/business. If Hosts spent more time building up the atmosphere, getting the support of the local community and the sponsors, then there is a better chance for me to attend.

The events I think need to be saved and supported, and the events I try to attend if I can get free. The rest are much farther down on my list, because they still lack something I am yearning for above. I also support big events around the US, so they draw away from Texas events as well.

- ZBoaz
- Waterloo
- Capital of Texas
- World Doubles
- Outlaw
- Texas States
- VPO
- Waco
- Mr Jims
- Texas Teams

Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas?
<font color="blue">It's both good and bad. Good for the player that is looking for a place to play that is close and easy to get to. Bad for the player that wants to play against the best and biggest fields available.
Good for the TD's that want to have small local events, bad for the TDs that are looking to throw the bigger events that need to draw from across the state.</font>

Q. If there were less tournaments would that help turnout or just create other problems?
<font color="blue">Less tournaments would probably increase participation among the current touring crowd, but offer less incentives and chances for new players to join in the tournament scene.</font>

Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem?
<font color="blue">This isn't a problem as long as the player has some way to know which tournaments are supposed to be big events with added amenities, and which are intended to be smaller barebones events.</font>

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events?
<font color="blue">That is a question I will be dedicating some time to answer in the coming weeks. I would like to see whether we have the same number of players spread thinner, or more players that are just spread thin. If it is the latter, there is a chance that attendance will pick up as more players are given the chance to experience tournament golf.</font>

Q. Are entry fees too high?
<font color="blue">Yes, but that is a product of the demand for higher payouts and weaker sponsorships. In an economy where we are almost completely dependent on player's entry fees to provide payout numbers, high entry fees are the only way to make that happen.</font>

Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another?
<font color="blue">Some events I attend because of the course it is played on (Athens, Nacogdoches, Waco, Victoria).
Some because of the TD/Club (World Doubles, Tyler, Lubbock, OK Open, Mr. Jims).
Some because of the events and atmosphere (TX10, 24 Hour Marathon, Texas State Doubles, World Doubles, Worlds).
Some because they are close and I don't really need a reason(DFWFD, DFW).</font>

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?
<font color="blue">Not so much TD as reputation of the event itself. I can't think of any events I avoid because of the TD.</font>

Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined?
<font color="blue">Only in the case of courses filling and players having to be turned away. I still think that most events that are PRO-only should consider adding Advanced divisions to fill out the field (like the Oklahoma Open does).</font>

Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else?
<font color="blue">The course(s) involved influence my decision to play a specific tournament a great deal.</font>


Bonus Question:
Q. Does PDGA Sanctioning play a large part of your decision to play a specific tournament?
<font color="blue">Yes, with the exception of TX10 events, I will rarely travel at all to play in an unsanctioned event, and I have traveled a long way (Lubbock instead of Arlington) to support a sanctioned event when there was a TX10 in my back yard.</font>

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD?
<font color="red"> Absolutely. Is the event hosted by Club or For Profit TD? There has got to be a lot of the rest of the items before I will consider going to a for-profit TD event. If it is like all the rest of the events, with basic amentities but nothing else, then I want the profit of the event to go back into the local club/course. I and many others of us have spent a lot of countless hours in support of the game, and are not ready to support For-profit TDs unless we are sure it is being done on the sponsorship they raise, and not on the backs of us the volunteers.
</font>



Why don't you just say it Nez? I guess you are so blind to see the benefits of Texas 10 and me a "for profit" TD. Since you have only been to I think 1 Texas 10 event in 4 years I am sure you must be right. For everyone else they know what I do and why I do it.

How the hell do you think we donated $40,000 to charity, have an average of 170 players per event all year, and the support of multi-national companies etc etc etc. The list goes on if you want me to. Or is that something that you and the PDGA have spent tens of thousands of dollars of members money trying to do and failed. Does Sportsloop ring a bell?

I think something must be working somewhere here? Thousands of disc golfers can't be wrong every year. Is there a reason we get corporate sponsorships, and support from outside the sport. I guess you don't know because you knock down anyone that tries.

You asked me a couple of years ago how I could run a charity event and still make a living, while you questioned my ethics. I guess you will never know but thousands of players at my events each year know and have no problem. I don't think my friend Lance minds do you?

I have to get back to the party on the pool deck. The corporate helicopter is coming soon to take myself and friends to New York for brunch.

Chris Himing
Professional TD and proud of it!

I have to get back to the party on the pool deck. The corporate helicopter is coming soon to take myself and friends to New York for brunch.




ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!! That was great...If not for the charity work, you might (a very BIG MIGHT!) have a reason to go after guys like Chris that make a living as TD's. I don't mind at all, as I know how much time and energy it takes him to do. He's putting his butt out there on the line; if people didn't show up, he'd be sleeping in that Thunder!

Guys like Chris are getting this sport out into the mainstream at a faster rate than it was before...other states should be so lucky as to have a quality show of events during each year. Keep up the great work Chris, and make sure you know how to spell my name for that big check!

I must say that Chris does work the TX10 and other events as a full time job and is successful at getting sponsorship.

It is also clear from my perspective that what he is able to get out of it comes more from sponsorship than the backs of the players.

Since he specifically exempted TDs that get by on their sponsorship raising efforts
and are not ready to support For-profit TDs unless we are sure it is being done on the sponsorship they raise, and not on the backs of us the volunteers.

I think you may have been a little quick to jump on Nez. Just because he hasn't made it out to many TX10s doesn't mean he is against everything you do. He hasn't been to much in TX outside of Houston and you haven't been to Houston for a while.

Most people that frequent TX10s know how much you work outside of the events that you put in and how much corporate interest you are raising in Disc Golf. I have watched a large number of disc golfers start playing tournament golf in TX10s and move on to start playing tournament golf throughout Texas.

The TX10s are doing a lot for Disc Golf in Texas, and a lot for the PDGA even if it is not clearly visible.

Don't let Nez talk to you like that!

Long live the Cali10!!!!!! :) :D :)

TEXAS 10 - setting the standard!!!!!!!!!!!!! and also good luck with your okie tour next year!!!!!!!!

Actually,

I don't think Nez feels TX10 is bad or that he is against it. I am in the same boat with Nez; I prefer to play sanctioned events. I went to my first TX10 this year and it was a phenomenal event. Well run, enjoyable etc. I still prefer sanctioned events, I like keeping track of my rating and I like what the PDGA has done and does do for me. I think for profit is fine but I agree with Nez that even for profit TDs should think about the courses where they hold tournaments; for exactly the reason that Nez gave, local people put in a lot, TDs get the advantage of that, shouldn't they give back? A club event assures that, but it isn't fair to assume that a for profit TD doesn't. I have no idea what Chris does for local clubs and courses but I do know he takes care of the players who come to his events!

Without answering every question in Chris' opening post, it seems the consensus is that better overall control of the events in Texas is needed. Contrary to that, a lot of people seem to feel it is impossible, unfair, or unlikely. Is this really true? What is fair? Perhaps it is time for a statewide referendum by players that would give some direction/power to TDs. There is no question that an organized series of events starting with small and going through A tiers would benefit Disc Golf, and players.

Furthermore, think about the impact on sponsors. That kind of structure and control would be much more attractive to sponsors than a hoge-poge. Just look at what Chris has done. His series demands respect because of its structure and organization. Expand that across all events and think of the possibilities.

I understand that some TDs are not going to get what they want and that some events will get short shrift but if we really want growth, we are going to have to add a layer of structure and organization that we don't currently have.

for better or worse, most disc golf is played on public lands. while some effort at organizing events is certainly appropriate, i hope we remember that anyone is entitled to use any public park. i 100% agree that it is the local volunteers who make our courses what they are, and in an ideal world they should be first in line to reap any reward that comes from tourneys at the parks they maintain and clubs they manage.

that being said, i would still fight hard against collusion by any organization that seeks to "allow" or "deny" events held on public lands. ditto for attempting to influence the public park agencies that are charged with permitting the parks.

In most cases these public parks are welcoming us. They can see the benefits of working together to promote the sport and thier city. The benefits of bringing 100 to 200 poeple to a course and city go far beyond them just people using the park. Hotels, food, gas, beer stores etc all benefit more than most think. If these numbers are not used to help then you are missing something very big. Some unnamed cities don't give a **** so we don't there. The ones that understand good business see what a great sport this is.

In terms of Texas 10 helping the local clubs I would not be able to continue to come back year after year if I did not work with them. Why do you think I go to certain cities more than others? It's a win / win situation if done right, just like most things.

Just as a small example of what bringing a quality event to a town can do. When I went to Corpus Christi a couple of months ago we had a very good local turnout. However the benefit really came when on the following Tuesday at their local in town mini. Normally getting 10 or so people each week this week had over 40 locals and everyone was buzzing with excitment about the sport and helping it grow in CC. Now that is a good thing and a direct result of bringing a good event and excitement to a town.

Sorry I would love to go on but its going to be a long couple of days. Back to the previous questions :)

Thanks
Chris

That is a point that needs to be addressed. The PDGA Sanctions events. It looks to the State coordinator to maintaint the schedule and make sure the mileage restrictions are up held, or agreed to by the existing TDs. The problem I face in Texas is that we can run as many as 6 B-tier level events at once in Texas and not hit the mileage restrictions.

If a TD is turned down for a specific date that they want, they can opt for not-sanctioning their event and still run the event on that weekend anyway. If they are good at advertising and promotion, they will keep local players from traveling and maybe even draw some traveling players to their event.

I also do not think I have the right to prevent anyone from running a sanctioned event that follows the guidelines set down by the PDGA. We could set up a TD association for sanctioned events within Texas, and try to setup a restriction of 1 B-tier, 2 C-tiers per region per month, but we would have to break up some existing tournaments to get that started. That would still leave the unsanctioned events free to proliferate.

I will look at the schedule and come up with some numbers on the frequency of large events in each region. I see about 8 regions in Texas.

1) Austin/S.A.
2) Houston/SouthEast Texas
3) DFW
4) East/NorthEast Texas
5) Corpus/South Texas
6) West Texas (below I-20)
7) West Texas (above I-20)
8) Central Texas (between I-35, I-45, and I-10)

What frequency of events would be acceptable as an upper limit per region ?

BTW - in no way was I trying to say that our State Coordinator has not done his job, he has. I might argue that the PDGA structure, while good in it's own right, is insufficient for a state the size of Texas and for the high volume we now have.

No offense taken, but do you have any thoughts on my question ?

Mikey Likes it on first examination. I put it that way because I don't have enough experience to know the final result. I like it because it starts to give a greater structure to the State and works towards making events work in the major regions of the state that sponsor high numbers of tournaments. I agree that you run the problem of non-sanctioned tournaments, how many are there besides TX10 that really draw? Regardless it's a starting point... Any other comments?

Thanks Gary.

What frequency of events would be acceptable as an upper limit per region ?

i think an average of 1 per month per region sounds good as an upper limit. some upward slack given to sept/oct perhaps, as long as the average per month is 1.

chris, i know yer busy, but i want to explicitly state that i agree TX10 is a great example of how travelling events can work with local clubs and government well. have fun this weekend!

Yes, Gary thank you for all the hard work!


Just as a small example of what bringing a quality event to a town can do. When I went to Corpus Christi a couple of months ago we had a very good local turnout. However the benefit really came when on the following Tuesday at their local in town mini.



The same thing happened in the Golden Triangle (Beaumont/Port Aurthur area). They were in danger of losing on of their course, not they have the city back working WITH them instead of against.

I would say there are TOO MANY tournies when a one day event has more OPEN players than BOTH of the A-tiers COMBINED!!! :confused:

Gary, I thought you mentioned somewhere in here about studying or gathering facts about player participation in Texas. If not, just ignore this. If so, I'm just curious as what your approach will be. For example, do you have access to data that we don't or are you going to look at the data available to all of us.

I think I saw Rodney or someone else post an average # of events per player or by rating. It was pretty interesting and informative. Anyways, it leads me to believe that the PDGA database can be queried in ways we cannot from this website.

To make a long post longer, the point of my rambling is that you might simply want to formulate certain queries that you think are important and ask the PDGA guys to do the queries. Also, just curious as to the stats that you think are important in this regard.

No, all I have access to you have access to as well.

I am going to collectthe sanctioned tournament information from all the events in TX and put it into a spreadsheet or database and start processing the data. Try to determine the total active player base, and how much players travel to attend events.

I will also be asking for information from the tds of unsanctinoed events for similar information. There I do have access to all of the TX10 data which helps.

I�ll summarize some of my thoughts on the subject: I agree with much of what Nez said in regards to how I choose my tournaments. I wouldn�t travel over 2 hours to a C-tier unless a family member was running it, and I would almost never play in a two-day C-tier. I won�t travel past 2 to 3 hours for a B-tier, unless historically the payout has been exceptional and I have heard great things about it. I�ll travel an infinite distance to an A-tier as long as time (the biggest limiting factor) and money allow. I also agree that the Austin/San Antonio area has the best chance at drawing huge numbers of players if a really big event can get started there (i.e., Outlaw�s). If I play a tournament there, I can get home before midnight (as I did last night), and likewise can be said for D/FW players. Another big factor for me is that if I hear a tournament is only 3 rounds (say��. 2 rounds of 18 and one round of 27), that is a huge attraction to me����. The biggest drawback to tournament travel is having to down coffee on a long trip back home just to make sure that you can arrive safely. As far as Texas 10 events are concerned, it is no secret that Chris does a phenomenal job organizing and running his events, but because he doesn�t near the Houston area much, I don�t attend as often as I�d like. However, if his events were even C-tiers so that payout and ratings could be tracked along with the other PDGA events I play, I�d give much more consideration to traveling to his events.

I�ll also add that tournament spacing plays a very important part in determining whether or not I�ll go. For example, with VPO, States, and the T10 Finals being so close together, you can bet that attendance is being affected somewhere, my guess is that VPO and States lose out. If someone can look at a schedule and think to themselves, well, I can go to an equally big one day tournament just a week or two later, maybe I�ll pass on the two-dayer.

So���.. I�ll wrap it up like this���. If you could take the 6 to 8 BIG events in Texas, space them out every month and a half to two months, and fill in the gaps with everything else���.. You�ll see the BIG tournaments return to the status we all hope for.

If you could take the 6 to 8 BIG events in Texas, space them out every month and a half to two months



Jim when you do this than the TD's dont think they can attract the Touring Pro which to me is not how you run a tourney anyways. You cater to the people that have been attending the events and supporting you all year long not the Touring Pro who wants his or her trip to more convient for them . just my 2 cents

Seewhere, I can see both sides to this argument, but in my opinion, the thing that tips the scales towards spacing them out is this: If you keep them too close together, those traveling pro's aren't going to have anyone to play against, and thus, no big payout to play for either. It's in everyone's best interest to space the tourneys out.

so Jim, does that mean you don't want to see the BIG DOGS come to Texas???

I Talked to Barry (you know the world champ). He took a break after USDGC and then went to the OO, VPO and ZT10. (BTW He won over $3000 in those 3 weeks!!!)

Ron Came to Texas and won $1445 (could not find O payout)

The question is do you want out of state guys to come or just be happy with local players.

Texas states moved to October to give a Texas/Oklahoma swing for A-tiers. The Texas 10 was originally going to be an A-tier too. (it still had an A-tier payout)

It is nice to be able to bring out of state players into Texas, but at what cost. It means putting all our big tournaments close together so we can attract them.

Much agreed...however I doubt any of the biggest 3 that have just occurred are going to move very much in the year's schedule in the near future. If they were 3-4 weeks apart, which is probably more likely, I bet the showing would be somewhat better.

I'm with Jim on the 3 round format. I really like what the VPO does with the 3 X 24 format. The format STATES uses is great, but seems pointless because of the staggered starts. There's plenty of room, so why not have a shotgun start? Everyone would get home hours earlier if that were the case.

I remember playing at the Pecan Park Open in Nacogdoches last year and even after the pick your own payout and awards, we were off before 7 pm and home by 10 after the 3-3.5 hour drive. I'm not sure what was done differently there, but we played 4 x 18 and it was run incredibly smoothly.

PG,

I absolutely want them to come, as I can play against Texas Talent at any given tournament. However, those "Big Dogs" need Pro's like myself to play against too.

BTW, I agree with you.

We should not be catering to the BIG DOGS. We should be working on Texas turnout.

But then how do you do that.

Jan- Big show
Feb - Big show
March - World Doubles
april - pecan Park Open - East Texas Open
May - Waco - COTO
June -
July -
Aug -
Sept - Carrollton open
Oct - Texas States
Nov - VPO - Texas 10 Finals
Dec -

(these were the tournaments that I know of off hand that usually attract 100+ players every year)

Bryan, the allegiance to the touring pro seems to be pretty common with Texas TDs. It has always puzzled me. I think some of them consider a 20 man field that includes Shultz and Russell better than a 40 man field with no big names. Why is that?

I see the main focus of this thread is still on scheduling as if it is a given that that is the primary factor in declining participation. Proper scheduling should be coordinated to help those that do play tourneys, but I still don't think it will change the minds of those that have slowly faded away.

Jim, I see you're a proud Aggie football fan again, but don't get the hopes up. ;) Hook 'em

Pizza, the Red Rock Show in March usually has 100+ players also.

As an am player, I like to see the touring pros. It's also good to see how the locals compare.

If the locals don't turn out because of too many tournaments bunched too closely together, then all of the fund raising and added cash for the tournament becomes more of an appearance fee for the touring pro.

Hey Gary,

In your proposal, where does Victoria fall, South Corpus?

I like the idea of the TX OK swing of A tiers, but I think that TX States gets left out in the cold with the scheduling. The weekend after USDGC with VPO, OO, and Tx10Finale kind of leaves states hanging because the other 3 are so close in proximity to each other.

Would states get better numbers of touring pros if it were in a swing with Waco and Pro World Doubles?

states has always been in close proximity to vpo. the fall schedule has been great in the past - Mr Jims, States, Oktoberfest (one that tooooo many miss) and VPO Am and Pro make an excellant couple months of golf. a bit clustered is good, because it allows ya to train with a specific tourney in mind. you can get ready in august and early september, get a few "practice" tourneys in so that you peak at states, then finish up strong with whatever remains (VPO and sometimes Oktoberfest depending on schedule)

spreading out the schedule would make it more difficult to plan the peaking.

i strongly feel that schedule considerations should be given to two day events. lets face it, one day events are not really much of an athletic competition, something that regretably seems to fading away from disc golf.

I did not include either of Moodies tournaments because they usually are capped at 90 players. Although I seem to remember him changing the format this year so anyone could play.

Same with Outlaws and Waterloo, these are also capped.

Not that these tournament are bad, not in the least, these are the top tournaments in Texas, but limit the field so other tournaments could be run on the same weekend. (limiting field has good points and bad points)

I remember the days when a field over 10 players was good.

I lean toward the South-East for Victoria and South-West for Corpus.

That way Houston influences Victoria, but not Corpus.

Houston influences both of the East regions

Austin/S.A. influences both both of the South regions.

DFW influences both of the North regions.

Q. Is it good to have so many tournaments every weekend in Texas? <font color="blue"> Probably...choice is good. </font>

Q. If there were less tournaments whould that help turnout or just create other problems? <font color="blue"> It would probably help turnouts at the ones left (if I'm catching your drift...) but it would certainly create other problems and hard feelings...especially in cases of sanctioned vs non-sanctioned ones if that was the choice that had to be made for some reason... </font>

Q. Some TD's and clubs just want to run small tournaments on their home course. Is that really a problem? <font color="blue"> Heck no! I'm giving consideration to running a series of nine small, un-sanctioned events culminating in one grand finale A-tier called Texas States. The wholesale-to-retail profits of the preliminary events (qualifier ones) will be used for the States Bonus payout. </font>

Q. Are turnouts really getting smaller or are there just more events? <font color="blue"> Scroll back through the PDGA events over the last 4-5 months and see for yourself...I saw A-tier events there with attendance in the 60's! </font>

Q. Are entry fees to high? <font color="blue"> Probably so at many events. Some of the entry fees I've seen seem a little high, but I haven't been following them. What I know is that we haven't raised ours in 4-5 years now - but I take it that we aren't the "norm." </font>

Q. What makes players choose one tournament over another? <font color="blue"> Lots of stuff...the course, somebody I know is gonna be there, but many times I'm looking for the ambience I have while being there at the event. Absolute best experience I had was last year's ZT10 in Lewisville, probably second was Texas Teams in Wimberly. The entire experience of Waterloo or COTO or Oktoberfest is what makes the event desirable to attend. </font>

Q. Do you choose a tournament because who is the TD? <font color="blue"> I probably would if I had to, but my issue is usually funds or climbing/guiding - and there are only quality TDs in the tournaments I've been to. :DSeriously, I don't think I'll play in another event where the TD is playing in the event or there aren't any ammenities much.</font>

Q. Should there be more separate Pro events, separate Am events or just leave them all combined? <font color="blue">I think having separate events would only hurt and require double the amount of staff. But then again we get to enjoy the fairly unique ability to be able to offer multiple courses at a single venue. </font>

Q. Does the course make your decision to play a tournament more than anything else? <font color="blue">Not so far, but I understand that there are a few that I "must attend" just for the course...Waco, and VPO, but I usually end up playing a course when I'm passing through.</font>


I will almost always choose to participate in a sanctioned event over a non-sanctioned one. (Mostly because I want to support the governing body of the sport...) But I also support events which only support a local club/organizer... Hell...I even support the "for profit" TDs out there but I prefer playing in them when they're sanctioned.

I think that non-sanctioned tournaments offer a lot to the competitive side of the sport. They provide a stepping-stone for many folks to get their first taste of competitive/tournament play without feeling the "pressures" of a sanctioned event. They attract a lot of players because of generally lower entry fees and little overhead costs.

Does something need to be done schedule-wise? Yeah, a few tweaks here and there, but to me, a sanctioned event should always take precedence over a non...after that I think that we've elected an arbiter to help resolve scheduling conflicts, I say we empower him to make those decisions.

I think that we've elected an arbiter to help resolve scheduling conflicts, I say we empower him to make those decisions.



I guess that means me. :cool:

The only real problem I have is the quidelines I have to go by are set down by the PDGA do not allow me to stop events outside of the 200 mile limits for B-B.

One good thing now is that if you haven't cleared your dates through me and gotten them on the LSDGA calendar, you won't be sanctioned. There is nothing I can do for TDs that choose to run unsanctioned events when and where they wish, but the major TDs are scheduling through me even for their unsanctioned events.

All I can do is hope players use the LSDGA calendar to plan their events, and avoid those that aren't listed, or haven't gotten their dates approved.

Heck no! I'm giving consideration to running a series of nine small, un-sanctioned events culminating in one grand finale A-tier called Texas States

Nice so 9 more 1 dayers to try and schedule yep that will HELP. I think the thread is TOO MANY not lets add more 1 dayers.

I will almost always choose to participate in a sanctioned event over a non-sanctioned one. (Mostly because I want to support the governing body of the sport...) But I also support events which only support a local club/organizer... Hell...I even support the "for profit" TDs out there but I prefer playing in them when they're sanctioned.

I think that non-sanctioned tournaments offer a lot to the competitive side of the sport. They provide a stepping-stone for many folks to get their first taste of competitive/tournament play without feeling the "pressures" of a sanctioned event. They attract a lot of players because of generally lower entry fees and little overhead costs.



I would like to make sure everybody knows that I support the PDGA 100% regardless if some of my events are sanctioned or not. Please tell me how any of my events are any different from a PDGA event except that you pay money to the PDGA and get points to attend an event that very few Texans go to. Ask anyone in the PDGA how the TX10 impacts the PDGA and all you will hear is positives, they know the numbers involved.

I setup the tour for ALL players not just ones that are members. This said there has been a HUGE number of people TX10 has introduced to the sport and are now members. Some are not, many are, but they are all now loving the sport because someone welcomed them to play and have a good time.

The main contributing reason this years final was a B-tier and not an A-tier like last year was so that everyone had a chance to play and not forced to become a PDGA member. Again I support the PDGA but do not believe forcing people to be a member to play an event. As I said sell the benefits of membership instead of enforcing membership.

Larry, Jim etc I appreciate your thoughts about one day events. I personally like the competitive nature of longer events but somethings change and other options become better for other people. I won't go into all the benefits of one dayers but I am sure we all know.

Larry you mentioned the pressures of a sanctioned event over a non. I really don't understand this. Looking at the faces and talking to people all weekend this weekend the only pressure I saw them with was how to spend $30,000. Everyone had a great fun time as they should have. If they didn't have a fun time I am not doing my job. Do these beginners or amateurs that are just getting into the sport really have different pressure because it is sanctioned or not?

I would like to add one more thing. Everyone needs to get over the stigma they have about "for profit TD's". I made a good amount of money from this weekends finals but do you see anyone complaining about anything? Was the payout compromised? Were the facilities any less? Did the player packs have inflated prices? Did the local course, city and club not want me there?

As for the schedule next year the PDGA know when I will sanction all my events, but until then they remain the same. How would the schedule be impacted when I make all the events B-tiers? I certainly have the numbers to do it which is more than I can say for some (no disrespect either).

Thanks
Chris

I believe the fact that 9 in the TX-10 series are non-sanctioned helps in getting the large number of first time tournament players. Being a series event, those playing in one of those non-sanctioned events are very much encouraged to also attend the last in the series, which is sanctioned. The number of PDGA members that started out with their first tournament being a non-sanctioned PDGA TX-10 event has got to be a very large number. It is a great introduction into big events, especially for women. Therefore, even though 9 of the 10 events may not be sanctioned, it still brings lots of support to the PDGA and is run as though it is sanctioned.

I'm not sure exactly what everyone's trying to achieve here, but I'd like to offer a few things to consider.

From a historical perspective, as Bryan points out, there was a time when tournaments were much smaller. As the years went on, they grew and grew. One day we got to the point where tournaments started to fill -- what a beautiful day. No more Saturday morning registration, which was always the most difficult part of running a tournament.

But then we split events into pro and am weekends. The fields were smaller again, but again they started growing.

So now there are so many events that fields may be shrinking slightly again.

The turnouts are too small, so the answer is... fewer events? How about creating more players instead.

The pro fields are too small? Come up with a bunch of cash, and they'll find a way to get there, and a lot of Advanced players will start moving up.

Pretty much everyone who has a course wants to host an event. They take pride in their course, and they want to share that with other players. I can't imagine a scenario whereby we tell people they can't run events. And guess what? There are going to be more and more courses. I'm currently working on at least five courses -- all excellent 18-hole courses that will be great venues for tournaments -- that should be open in 2005.

But my biggest concern is looking forward. There are a fair number of cities looking to put in courses because they want to draw players into town. They want the hotel money, the restaurant money, etc. If we were to tell them, "Well, we really have enough events in Texas right now," they would lose a major incentive for putting in a course.

And that would be very, very bad for disc golf.

So if you really think the problem is smaller fields, I suggest that the obvious solution is MORE PLAYERS.

Heck no! I'm giving consideration to running a series of nine small, un-sanctioned events culminating in one grand finale A-tier called Texas States

Nice so 9 more 1 dayers to try and schedule yep that will HELP. I think the thread is TOO MANY not lets add more 1 dayers.



If Larry is serious, I'm thinking he's looking at these to be local Houston events (like we had in 2003, remember the sponsorship dollars that year?). We had about 5 events that were used to generate dollars for States. This year Kimhak couldn't/didn't run them and his sponsorship was significantly less.

I doubt that events of that small scope will hurt anyone. They'll be comprised of league players mostly. You know, those who can't play certain tourneys because their division isn't offered. :)

There is no difference between a TX10 event and a PDGA-sanctioned event when it comes to organizing, running, and playing (minus the alcohol on the course--something I'd like to go away personally, but that's another topic).

The difference is in what the PDGA provides "out here". Points (which don't matter much anymore) and Ratings (which some people like--myself included--and some don't). I wish the first nine events were sanctioned, however the fact that more players are generated and kept and converted into members by the non-sanctioning is undeniable.

The For-Profit thing bugged me a couple of years ago, however, when you consider that Chris works during the week (often earlier) with sponsors and cities and parks departments to get things setup for the players on the weekend, I think he's earned a share of the take. Judging by the new tour standards, the PDGA does too--the allowance of the host to take x% as a fee if they have their act together.

Sanctioned vs. Un-sanctioned to me comes down to this: Where are the events and who is running them? Early in the year I drove past a sanctioned event to play a TX10, but that was a TD-influenced decision. Later in the year, I missed some local sanctioned events because they were scheduled after I had made plans to play in TX10s--otherwise I would have played them instead.

Clone Himing!

Why do you think California put itself $3 BILLION dollars in the hole to support stem-cell research? That's right, so we could clone Chris. Money well spent if we get a Cali-10. :)

I use to play Circular Skies tournaments. You can't tell me that John was a non profit TD back then. He worked hard and gave a good payout to those that cashed. I never had a complaint. (that, and you could pick your plastic and John always had all the new plastic)

John stopped running the Circular Skies tour a few years after i started playing. (I remember Mr. Powell running it the last year) John also was running National Doubles, at least one Ultimate tournament and other events.

There have been other "Pro TD's" over the years, but most fell by the side after a few tournaments.

Then came Chris and the Texas 10's. Chris had a full time job and originally wanted to start up the Texas 10's hopping just to at least break even. (I talked with Trevor and Chris that year about the profit part) But guess what, people were showing up in droves.

After that 1st year (if I remember correctly) Chris left his full time job to work on the Texas 10 full time. Trevor bowed out so Chris could make it his full time job and Trevor could be at home with his wife and kid. (Trevor helped Chris build Thunder)

Fast forward to this year. Chris works hard on the Texas 10 to raize money for LAF. There has to be a lot of pride in being able to raise $40,000 for charity. But the cool thing is he can do this and make a living too. :D

Other for profit TD's have been looking at what Chris has done and tried to copy it. I will tell you the difference. Chris gives so much back to the players that you would not even realize that he makes a profit. All those Tents, Tables, Banners, Car, trailer, computer, PA system and inventory cost money. Chris's job is to raise money to pay for these things. (it helps when he is able to get those things as sponsorship too)

This year Chris branched out and picked up som of the Hill Country Flyers tournaments, plus some other tournaments.

1st thing I noticed was that he makes all these at least C-tier events. He even ran some 2 day events.

The real question should be, why these tournaments had lower turnouts than the Texas 10's.

Here is my opinion on that.

The Texas 10 is a series that if you play 4 events, you qualify for the bonus payout.

yes, it is that simple. Out of the 7 tournaments I played this year, 5 of them were Texas 10's. (the other 2 tournaments I played were run by MaceMan in Carrollton and the McKinney tournament run by B Poole and BTL, I did the payout for this tournament as sponsorship for the Carrollton Open)

Why did I play Texas 10's? Mostly to qualify for the bonus payout. (I won $161 this weekend)

Chris does a lot for his players. Sure, there are usually delays between rounds and you have to fill out your own score card, but then have you ever run an event with 180 players?????? I have, and it is not easy to get the scores done, posted, and organize scorecards for the next round.

My only complant about the Texas 10's is the wait for the scores to be posted. But as a fellow TD, I understand the problems that can occur. (this is true at most events)

My only complant about the Texas 10's is the wait for the scores to be posted. But as a fellow TD, I understand the problems that can occur. (this is true at most events)



Thanks for the positive words Bryan in the rest of your post. Thanks also for the LAF donation from the Carrollton Open.

To answer your question about payout time I more than likely do this on purpose. One of my pet peeves at events is people not listening when I am doing the speaches. If I was to post the results then attempt to start the presentations all people would be doing is looking at results and talking about how they finished. By waiting until after the presentations to post the scores it helps to make people listen and focus on what is happening.

This Sunday I had one scorecard that was late. This held up the sorting of 77 Open players. We then (Gary) had to split the ties and money which was a lot of people. I took advantage of that time to join in the freestyle session.

Anyway most things I do are for a reason.

Back to Texas scheduling issues.

Thanks
Chris

This is one of the most important considerations in this discussion. Everyone needs to realize as I did after the first BIG SHOW that the people that need to be catered to are the ones you will see all year, the locals. I am referring to the people who are going to regularly play the events in the state.

The scheduling of the tour for the touring players is taken care of by the PDGA directly, that being A-tier's, NT events, and the majors. Those events are scheduled to move logically across the country, at least some of the time. We should not be concerned with running our events to attract the tour at the expense of our locals.

Having TX States after the USDGC and thinking that the tour will come and play that string of events is not serving the locals. First off most of the players that play USDGC will still be worn out the next weekend, you need a break and most of the touring players take one. Second if you have a string of BIG events on 4 consecutive weekends then you are asking your locals to spend 4 BIG entry fee's in a month. This string of events is self defeating in 2 ways, time, and money. This string looks great on first glance but if you look at it hard and think it through you are asking players to give up a good bit of their income in a short time as well as their vacation and family time by setting up the string.

Basically I am saying that we need to take a hard look at the scheduling of events and the time frame they happen in. We need to work to make the state strong and work well throughout the year and the rest will take care of itself.

I agree with John, we need more players, this is the solution. I think that disc golf has stumbled every time anyone or group tried to pull things back. We need to push forward all the time, this is where the progress comes from.

4 consecutive weekends then you are asking your locals to spend 4 BIG entry fee's in a month



Sounds like you guys are facing the same exact challenge we are in our region. 4 A Tiers in 4 weeks just prior to the USDGC for us...

In my opinion I think the amount of TX tournaments is great, I have only played in one of Chris's tournaments and it was ran fantastic. The only thing that I would like to see change is a requirement that all TDs be pros, I find it hard to believe anything that a TD playing in a recreational division has to say. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I don't think a persons ability to throw little plastic things into metal thiings with chains has any relation to their ability to organize. TDing an event relies more on a persons ability to organize than on their disc golf skill. I would just like all of the TDs to have played for 5 or more years, have played in more than 25 events, and assisted at 5-10 more.

Experience does count as much as the ability to organize. You have to know what things are needed and important before you can effectively organize and prioritize them them.

The funny thing is that only one touring pro on the male side made it to all 4 tournaments.

The only thing that I would like to see change is a requirement that all TDs be pros...:



Interesting. That's kind of the converse of a convention I've always thought we should consider: before you can be a pro, you have to run a big tournament.

Only 18 Pro players made it to 3 of the 4,
and 29 additional Pro players made it 2 of the 4

The only thing that I would like to see change is a requirement that all TDs be pros...:



Interesting. That's kind of the converse of a convention I've always thought we should consider: before you can be a pro, you have to run a big tournament.



I'd be happy if Pros had to pass a rules test...

Everyone should pass a rules test. Especially TD's who play Rec.

All TDs are required to pass the official's test.

This is a good thread. I have loved my time in Tejas, the courses, people and climate. I have to admit, I was excited to see a swing of 4 Big tournaments in Texas in the fall. The truth of the matter is that after a season of traveling and disc golf. The touring pros are pretty darn exhausted. I skipped States just because we were so close to home base and we were tired. Its the same reason that hordes of touring pros just went home after USDGC. That said, Mace is right, we are missing the local players from all of these big events all over the country. I remember when the KCWO used to draw 12 open pros from Iowa to play. This has since shrank to 2 or 3 990+ players that feel good about the bet and their chances against the $125 entry. (The McCain theory)
It is obvious that any outside sponsorship helps to raise the bar for a great payout. That being said, most touring pros would agree that they would much rather play on multiple cards with many different players verses a small elite field full of grumblers. We are missing the local player at most of our big events. What do we do?
-Lower Entry (80 players paying $50 is equal to the same 40 players paying $100) and waaay more fun!
-Raise some funds (Its tough but it ain't hard) I raised $30,000 for the World Championships and spent only 8 days in the state!
-Space the big tournaments out with a mind toward the local

And like J Houck says, more people playing helps all of the above. That is what EDGE is all about!

Too many tournaments? There can't be too many tournaments. We want people playing competitive fun disc golf everywhere, all the time.
I really like the idea of eliminating C's and D's by name. Hold B tiers to some solid standards, A tiers to high standards and the NT to professional tour standards. If the PDGA wasn't in need of funding, we could have tons of non-sanctioned C-Tier style tournaments (bigger and better run than mini's) that were just to involve locals, introduce tourney play to newbies and raise funds for the regional big tournament.
To schedule this we would need to coordinate local C-Tiers in each region on several given weekends. Then schedule 1-2 National Tour stops for year, than 4 quarterly A-Tiers, and twice monthly B-Tiers that could even by North/South or East/West.
The same city doesn't have to run a BIG tournament every year, in fact it benefit all to even go every other year and keep sponsors from being taxed year after year.
Just some thoughts.....I'm going to go eat.mmmmmfood!

Hey Yeti.How about we eliminate sanctioning fees for each tournament and allow clubs to pay a 1 time yearly fee to cover the C and x tier events and hold the B tiers to individual standards.Would let the club make some funds and give the players points for playing.Could maybe limit it to 4 c tiers for 100.00 or something of that nature.Ralph from Charlotte

-Lower Entry (80 players paying $50 is equal to the same 40 players paying $100) and waaay more fun!
-



Good points, Yeti.

But don't forget that when you double the field size, you also pay twice as deep, so there's not as much dough at the top.

That and the money you do raise for sponsorship gets split up more.

how about free entry fee for the pro's at big events?

you could do it like this. one month out, only players with Raitings over 975 can register. You take all the entries and the top guys get in. (only if the tournament fills up)

If not then

3 weeks out, move it down to 960.
2 weeks out, move it to 950
1 week out, move it to 940

The week of the tournament, if there is still room, open it up to anyone who wants to play Open.

payout only the top 3rd of maybe just the top 25%. They will be playing for just the sponsorship cash.

"dough at the top." I've watched 15 years of "dough at the top" and while the names keep changing, the fields have barely increased. I know, I'm just ******* again, let's follow the same paradigm, it's a winner. :p

aw shucks, james, ya gotta give it a chance to take hold!

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

While I agree with you Mace that catering to the local players is very important, I disagree with the "conclusion" that we need more players as the solution. I did an analysis of Texas tournaments and found that the majority of players play 3 or less tournaments a year. Therefore, I see two possible solutions: 1) recruit more players and 2) get the existing players to play more tournaments.

In terms of getting more players, when I read John's post the first thing I thought was, gee, what does he think, that we tell potential players - don't play, this sport is bad? Every opportunity I get I recruit and I suspect most players do. The notion that we need more players is obvious, the reality is that it will likely happen on the same growth curve it always has.

The alternative, getting players to play more tournaments has a two-fold solution, organization of tournaments (scheduling) and well-structured tournaments (as per the earlier comment about focusing on local players). Note that in the analysis I did, I found that some players move around the state, but most seem to stay close to home. This has two implications. First, it emphasizes the point of serving the local player and second, it is consistent with what John is doing. Put courses in new areas, sponsor local tournaments and you'll get more players in those underutilized venues.

At this point I suspect that the decline in players in tournaments is due to the increased number of local options, i.e., it doesn't matter if there are an extra 100 tournaments in Dallas, that won't affect Houston (although I still haven't looked to see if the increase in local tournaments affects player participation and tournament selection on a local level, Gary has suggested doing this across the state). I also suspect this won't hold as true for A tier events i.e. people travel more for A tiers and the more A tiers you add across the state the more it impacts all A tiers (again, I haven't looked at the impact of tier on participation and travel, I am just speculating).

Hey Lyle good point. I think we will see the influx of new blood in steadily increasing numbers. We also need to pick up the old ones that have dropped off for whatever reason. That is the combo that will help all of this.

The touring pros are pretty darn exhausted. I skipped States just because we were so close to home base and we were tired. Its the same reason that hordes of touring pros just went home after USDGC. That said, Mace is right, we are missing the local players from all of these big events all over the country. I remember when the KCWO used to draw 12 open pros from Iowa to play. This has since shrank to 2 or 3 990+ players that feel good about the bet and their chances against the $125 entry. (The McCain theory)
It is obvious that any outside sponsorship helps to raise the bar for a great payout. That being said, most touring pros would agree that they would much rather play on multiple cards with many different players verses a small elite field full of grumblers. <font color="red">I AGREE 1,000,000% </font> We are missing the local player at most of our big events. What do we do?
-Lower Entry (80 players paying $50 is equal to the same 40 players paying $100) and waaay more fun!
-Raise some funds (Its tough but it ain't hard) I raised $30,000 for the World Championships and spent only 8 days in the state!
-Space the big tournaments out with a mind toward the local


WORD!!!!!!!!

I maintain the TX10 database and am very familiar with the nubmer from those events.

While I have become accustomed to the number of players that only play one TX10 a year, I was not prepared to see the same pattern in the PDGA sanctioned events in TX. I was amazed to see how many players only attend 1 or 2 events each year. The bad part is there aren't many places in Texas that only have 1 event each year. So event if they are only playing in their local events, they aren't even making all of those.

How do we make the events more attractive to those players that don't make out very often.

Is the answer non-sanctioned low entry fee events to get them hooked, or lower entry fees at sanctioned events? Flatter payouts, or steeper payouts?
More amenities, or everything to payout?

I think we need to remember why we started this in the first place, and work to get more fun back into the tournament experience.

Excellent points Gary!

I think we all know in our guts what the problems are. They have all been raised here a number of times.

1. Cost
2. Fun/Experience/Benefits - One thing I really learned from this years Texas States is people really look forward to and like the mini-games and other events that occur. For me they don't mean much, I'm there to play, but it is clear that for many that is a huge benefit.
3. Convenience
4. Emphasis (Sometimes it is obvious that the tourney is directed at the wrong people - Pros... Touring Pros etc.) I don't think it is bad to take care of Pros or Touring Pros [I loved watching them at Texas States] but I feel the best way to do that is to take care of the local players, then the money necessary to take care of those players will come with the territory)

I think a good clear structure with a clear outline of added benefits will definitely help. That is, if each region (as defined by Gary) had a clear set of tournaments with clear benefits that were built around bonus prizes, the sport would definitely be better for it. The evidence for this is in Chris' TX10. He has the correct model; the rest of us need to emulate it or we will lose.

BTW - as much as I support the PDGA, I think the overzealous approach to the rules is hurting the fun factor. If our goal is a professional tournament, well the current approach is the right course. If our goal is lots of players and a fun experience.... It is hard to get both; one solution might be to demark it by bracket. Pro - serious, Am - semiserious, Intermediate - relaxed etc. I like serious disc golf but it may not be the best model for growth.

Whats a nubmer?

:D

Heh Heh - Heh Heh... He said nubmer... Heh Heh.

1st, I just wanted to say that it is great that TD's have been speaking on this subject. Gary, Chris, Brian, JOHN HOUCK, Gimp, and Larry. (I guess I should be in that list too)

Ok, here is what I would like to see happen.

Lets QUIT trying to bring in out of state players. Lets ask the PDGA to move some of our A-tier tournaments around to have one every month or 5/6 weeks. Then lets schedule the historicly large B-tiers between those tournaments. Then the (should be) C-tier events between those.

An idea that would never happen for several reasons.

I agree with this plan!!!!

Perhaps someone could list out all the A and B tiers that would be included in this plan, and throw around some estimated schedules. Obviously no one wants their particular tournament (locals or TD's) moved around to the complete opposite side of the year, so small stretches should be attempted. It sounds like everyone would be in favor of a schedule that went like this for a particular region:
(O = off week/non-sanctioned, B, A, and C are respective tiers)

A, O, C, B, O, C, B, O, C, A, O, C, B, O, C, B, O, C, A, O, C, B, O, C, B, O, C, A, O, C, B, O, C, B, O, C, A, O, C, B, O, C, B, O, C, A, O, C, B, O, C, B, O, C

This is 54 weeks, where the rotation repeats in 9-week increments. Now I'm not sure if it would work so well in a "region" the size of Texas, but it seems like some type of schedule like this would work really well. When one event is Am or Pro only, a separate tournament could be held in a different part of the state. It wouldn't have to start right at the beginning of the year, but when the first A-tier or Major occurred. I know the main thing for me is I'll never be able to play in tourney's 3 weeks in a row, sanctioned or not, 1-day or 2-day. I just can't get all my work at home and job done. I guarantee most people feel the same way. That's why, for a particular region, every 3rd week should be a relative "off" week as far as sanctioned tourney's are concerned. Does this sound like a pretty decent plan?

overall it could work, but there are a few tqeaks that might be necessary:

1) the idea of a 54 week year is perhaps to novel to gain much approval;
2) some traditionally reserved days, or "holidays", might negatively impact attendance. holidays such as Thanksgiving and Christmas would certainly take away from attendance at events scheduled for the weekends nearest them.

rather than trying to fit a strict order, how about determining a reasonable number of A,B and other events for each quarter, then allowing them to fall where they may... there's nothing intrinsically wrong with back-to-back sanctioned events, as long as it doesnt happen too often.

I agree with both statements. My main thought was that [probably within the whole state as A-Tiers/Majors are regarded], within a 9 or so week period, there be 1 A-Tier, 2 B-Tiers, 3 C-Tiers, and 3 off weeks. I'd imagine that for major holidays, those would be scheduled in as off weeks.

As far as getting the world to agree to a 54-week schedule to satisfy the syncronized disc golf schedule, I doubt we'd have a whole lot of acceptance!

Gary, where are you? what are your ideas or thoughts on the subject?

I agree Gary - lowering the entry fees will definately increase participation. The trend over the last couple of years to keep increasing the entry fees so TD's can claim a "larger" payout is getting a bit out of hand. Hiding a larger entry fee behind a 1 day vs a 2 day event is worse... paying $60 for a one-day B-tier compares to a $120 2 day b-tier (as far as $/round goes) $120 (equiv) entry fee to a B tier? A bit much in my opinion.

I'm at work - in meetings and stuff.

A-Tiers & Majors - We get no real say in those, but we can request shuffling. I thought that TX States was too soon after the USDGC. If we could move to the weekend after the TX10 Final it may work out better.

As it stands now:
A-Tiers: February (DFW), Then 4 weeks back to back in October and November (Houston, Tulsa OK, DFW, DFW)

NT: May in Waco

Majors: World Doubles in March and April.

(not in TX but a schedule concern): World Championships in July and August.

I am compiling a list of B-Tier attendance and TX10's, while unsanctioned, average well over 100 players per event. There are 10 of those including the A-Tier final spread out to about per month between February and October. Mix in the large B-tiers and stir. Give the C and smaller B-Tiers what's left ?

Over the Christmas break, I plan to sit down and map out how many events there are per region and how often they occur, then how many are in neighboring regions and closely they occur. I hope there is some sensible way to average the schedule out so there aren't large tournaments back to back that draw from the same pools of players. I also hope to find out where the pools of touring players are and what their traveling habits are.

================================================== ======

We were very full last year, I have had one or two drop, There are a few up in the air looking for a TD, and about half a dozen requests to be added to the schedule.

It is already too late to do this gracefully. Someone is going to get their feelings hurt.

I think there is room for a series of smaller events that move toward a larger final in the major metro areas. John Edwards is already doing this around Houston, Brian Mace is doing it in DFW, No one is doing it in the Austin/S.A area that I am aware of. John's series finishes in February, I think Brian's will finish in September, TX10s finish in November, that leaves late spring for the other series finale.

Though the TX10s are a series of unsanctioned events that move toward a large final, they are large events that must be scheduled with the larger picture in mind. Not because I am involved with the TX10s, but because they are averaging so many players per event. It is very difficult to fill an event that is scheduled against a TX10.

Concepts:
Local series of smaller low entry fee events around each metro area leading to larger finals each quarter.

Spreading A-Tiers out around the state throughout the year (neeed a lot of help from the PDGA and other regions for that)

Not letting the local series events happen on the same weekends as larger tournaments in same or neighboring regions.

Scheduling the smaller B and C tiers to supplement the larger B and A tiers.

So in a region you would have an off week where there was a larger event in a neighboring region, a week where there were smaller events in your region or 2 neighboring regions, and a week where there was a large or major event in your region.

please dont take the following as negative, because i kinda like the idea of series'. has anyone considered that attendance at an event late in the series is at least partially determined by how many you've attended early in the series? like i said, series are cool... but if you miss a couple at the beginning, there is not nearly as much incentive to play in later events.

also, i understand that series finale's are usually sanctioned, but why are non-sanctioned events given ANY consideration in the PDGA schedule? yes, i've heard the arguments about good for the sport, etc, and understand where they are coming from. but i would think if the series desires consideration from the PDGA, then it should pony up the sanctioning fees. otherwise those dates should really be considered as open on the PDGA calendar.

Just curious, with all the discussion about supporting the local people and spreading big tourneys out, why are you proposing to put Texas States one week after T10 finals. Seems like a simple rearrangement of this year's problem, one which did little for alot of locals.

Sorry for the number of posts, too much to try and put in one entry.

Preliminary Region definitions.

Austin/San Antonio: From Round Rock to San Antonio.
Houston: From Woodlands to Tom Bass.
DFW: From Weatherford to Rowlett.
Central: The triangle described by I-35, I-45, and I-10.
North East: East of US-75 and North of I-10. (Tyler, Nac., Athens)
South East: East of I-35 and South of I-10. (All of the coastal courses, Victoria, Corpus)
South West: West of I-35 and South of I-20. (San Saba, Wimberley, Lago, Hill Country)
North West: West of US-75 and North of I-20. (Lubbock, Abilene, Amarillo, Denton?, Wichita Falls)

I think this divides up the courses that are having the majority of the tournaments farly well. I'm not sure how much of the hill country should fall in to Austin/S.A.

also, i understand that series finale's are usually sanctioned, but why are non-sanctioned events given ANY consideration in the PDGA schedule? yes, i've heard the arguments about good for the sport, etc, and understand where they are coming from. but i would think if the series desires consideration from the PDGA, then it should pony up the sanctioning fees. otherwise those dates should really be considered as open on the PDGA calendar.



Pat - I'd like to speak in regards to this one. As a newbie TD (I've got 1 fundraising tournament under my belt), I don't think I would ever want to run a tournament against a TX10. Sanctioned or not. The draw is just to powerful. I think Gary's decision to list these events is justified. They will most certainly draw 100+ people everytime. This, like it or not, does have an effect on the surrounding events.

Keep up the good work Gary.

Brian Lamoreaux

I bet the next post has those 8 regions broken down by how many M, NT, A, B, and C-Tiers that occurred during last year and are speculated for next year, as well as non-sanctioned tournaments that you know about....and I thought I was a stat-freak! It would be good to see two things--one, a picture of Texas separated by these regions, and two, a spreadsheet of Dates by Regions with the type of event that was held for each. I already kind of made something like that for next year with these fields: Sanction, type of travel needed (in town, out-of-town, overnight stay), days (one or two) and rounds (3x24/4x18/2x18), event name, course/city, and the priority of attendance. I listed that one from 1 to 5: 1 = not at all likely, 2 = probably not, 3 = maybe (if nothing else to do), 4 = maybe (preferred), and 5 = Definitely playing (barring family deaths and the such)

You got to have your priorities straight, right! Now if only the schedule for next year was finalized...

I'm unsure what actual effect these regions are going to have, but I'll assume it will effect my disc golf schedule.

If so, you may want to rethink these. For instance, in Austin, I can get to Lago and Wimberly quicker than I can get to Live Oak. However, I think all of us should be in the same region, since any sanctioned tourney in Live Oak, Lago, Austin, RR, Wimberly could all draw people from each other and since the drive is short enough, these people would not necessarily have to stay in hotels.

"In terms of getting more players, when I read John's post the first thing I thought was, gee, what does he think, that we tell potential players - don't play, this sport is bad?""

Wow -- Lyle that's not even close to what I think. I certainly wasn't accusing anyone of not promoting the sport or of not bringing out new players.

".. the reality is that it will likely happen on the same growth curve it always has."

That is exactly what I think. That's why I tried to give a historical perspective. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The number of players will continue to grow, as will the number of courses and the number of tournaments. Every once in a while there will be some growing pains, but we'll keep working through them.

It was not really a proposal, more of an idea of why there weren't more touring Pros there.

The PDGA has no concern with unsanctioned tournaments. There are no unsanctioned events on the PDGA tour page.

There are Unsanctioned events listed on the LSDGA.com calendar because I feel they belong there (and I fund the site). Unsanctioned events are a major concern to TDs in Texas trying to schedule successful events, and to the players in Texas trying to plan where they are going to play.

The other thing I have found out by handling the stats for the TX10 series is that new players are more likely to start playing in a low cost series of events. Once introduced to tournament golf, many of those players go on to become tournament playing PDGA members. They also tend to play in more than 1 event each season since they were introduced to tournament play in a series format.

sorry, i thought you were operating in your capacity of Texas State Coordinator for the PDGA. my bad :D

Actually John,

I didn't really think that, I was using you to make my point. Very bad technique, I apologize. :o I just wanted to emphasize the points that selective placement of venues and a strategy to encourage existing players to play more tournaments should be considered

James, while I agree that many of the Hill Country courses are closer to Austin than anything else, adding them to the Austin area reduces the flexibility I have in scheduling them. I have tried to lay them out based on where the player pools come from for each area.

Austin, DFW, and Houston need to be major draw from areas.
The central courses draw from all of these areas.

The NE draws from DFW, Houston, and Central.
The SE draws from Houston, Austin, and Central.
The SW draws from Austin, DFW, and Central.
The NW draws from DFW, Austin, and Central.

Few of the outer ring areas draw from each other.

All of the Metro areas draw a little from each other.
All of the Metro areas draw from the central area.

Austin draws from the SE and SW.
Houston draws from the NE and SE.
DFW draws from the NE and NW.

There are a few players in each area that will travel farther to play, but they are the exceptions. For scheduling purposes, I would like to use these relationships to prevent conflicts.

The central triangle is DFW to San Antonio to Houston.

As for a map, the N/S line starts above Sherman on US-75, down to DFW where is switches to I-35, down to Laredo.

The E/W line is not straight across, but from the east border at Beaumont along I-10 to Houston (and the bottom of the central triangle). It continues from the top of the triangle at DFW along I-20 to El Paso. Not straight lines, but it does tend to divide the active courses and where they draw players from pretty well.

Here's your ultimate solution that will get players playing in more tournaments:

Offer a free day-long spa treatment for the wife/girlfriend/mom, etc. of any player pre-paying for an event at least 2 weeks in advanced.

That'll take care of two problems at once.

Concepts:
Local series of smaller low entry fee events around each metro area leading to larger finals each quarter.

Spreading A-Tiers out around the state throughout the year (neeed a lot of help from the PDGA and other regions for that)

Not letting the local series events happen on the same weekends as larger tournaments in same or neighboring regions.

Scheduling the smaller B and C tiers to supplement the larger B and A tiers.

So in a region you would have an off week where there was a larger event in a neighboring region, a week where there were smaller events in your region or 2 neighboring regions, and a week where there was a large or major event in your region.



Funny how these things go. I was thinking the same thing as I was putting during lunch. These ideas combined with the 54 week idea could make for some great local series in each region.

It would require getting the TDs in each region to work together each taking responsibility for some subset of the series events. You could even do what Gimp and Chris do making series bonuses.

Also consider, if we could get the regions and TDs to work together we could consider a rotating NT event. At the end of the summer you would have an NT as the culminating event for the A tiers and it would move from region to region each year, getting support from all the regions. This would also spread the burden of hosting the event, local clubs would only have to host once every 4 to 8 years depending on how you set it up.

The other thing to consider is that by having the events in a region act as a series you gain a lot of power. One event trying to get sponsors compares nothing to a series with the higher exposure.

My position as State Coordinator allows me to keep better track of the PDGA sanctioned events, and gives the TDs of the unsanctioned events some incentive to keep me informed of their plans.

But, as you can tell from looking at how much gray still exists on my schedule, not all of the sanctioned TDs keep me informed.

I won't have very good numbers on participation until the end of the year, and can't start trying to spread things out until 2006. I would like very much to see it where the same pools of players weren't being hit directly more than 2 weekends a month, but still offer each area a chance to playing every weekend without having to travel all the way across the state.

i'm working on a map graphic of the conceptual regions. maybe have it tonite, then could start adding some overlays with scheduled, proposed tournaments. i'll post it sometime this eve hopefully

Does an image absolutely have to already be posted on a web page to be able to be attached on here?!?

Gary, if I drew the lines correctly, it looks like Regions 4 & 5 could possibly be combined. The only major events I can think of are the PPO, Paul Giles, Waco (if incl.) Charity weekends, Tyler, and College Station (which has yet to hold tournaments catered to traveling players).

But the question of draw comes into play then.

Does PPO, PGM, or Tyler draw players from the Austin area ?

The regions are more for preventing conflicts than balancing courses in my mind.

One thing that may grow from regional portioning is that regions that are currently underserved may be the only places that have room to add new tournaments. This may help by putting the new tournaments in areas where the players have less opportunities to play without traveling.

That's a good point...I haven't looked at where players are from. That would be great to have Regions' attendence vs. Tourney location vs. date and what other events were in the area at that time, etc. If you had all that data together, you'd have an excellent way of saying to potential TD's that their event would or would not have a chance at competing with other TD's.

In this case, I agree that the regions are very well segregated. You'd have to be careful when scheduling events in the Austin area so as not to oppose the left or right sides...in addition to up north and down south!

Great thoughts from both of you there and I love the new tagline Derek. Give Gary a computer and some data and he will show you the way. That is why he is our Texas Rep!!!

Whatever the outcome of all this I think we can all help things in 2005. Any changes on schedule would not happen until 2006.

In 2005 the PDGA has relaxed its requirements and standards for sanctioned events. This only makes it easier for TD's to sanction a small event, fill the schedule and not neccesarily hold a good event.

I would like to propose for 2005 that TX tournaments uphold to a higher standard than the proposed PDGA standards. This will help make the good events stand out from the so so ones and maybe make life easier in 2006 when it comes to setting the tier levels. It could also have those lesser events become non sanctioned and more catered to a local fundraising level for the areas bigger tournaments.

These are just a few odd thoughts but how about something like this?

2005 TX Tournaments
C-tier
$200 added cash to pro's
$10 players packs
$20 fee to LSDGA

B-tier
$500 added cash
$15 players packs
$30 to LSDGA

There also needs to be requirements to meet like:

- non playing TD's
- lunch availability
- hotel deal
- other things as needed

These numbers are higher than the PDGA asks for, but I believe these numbers will make the TD or club more likely to go after sponsors, and in general uphold a better run event. If a TD or club does not have to do any thing other than collect entries and give out scorecards what incentive do they have to put on a good show? If you want to run a PDGA event you need to do the work. It also helps show players deciding on an event just what they are getting at a particular level event.

I would also like to add that ALL non-sanctioned events also pay a fee to the LSDGA. Gary self funds the site and I am sure with a few dollars in the bank he could do much more to benefit everyone.

The PDGA is relaxing the rules next year to get more people to sanction events. Obviously this is not the case in Texas so we should make those standards higher. If you have to pay more for something, and raise more money you are more likey to work harder at putting on a good show.

This is not aimed at anyone, or any club. If numbers like these are held to in Texas next year it could benefit everyone.

Thanks
Chris

Preliminary Region definitions.

Austin/San Antonio: From Round Rock to San Antonio.
Houston: From Woodlands to Tom Bass.
DFW: From Weatherford to Rowlett.
Central: The triangle described by I-35, I-45, and I-10.
North East: East of US-75 and North of I-10. (Tyler, Nac., Athens)
South East: East of I-35 and South of I-10. (All of the coastal courses, Victoria, Corpus)
South West: West of I-35 and South of I-20. (San Saba, Wimberley, Lago, Hill Country)
North West: West of US-75 and North of I-20. (Lubbock, Abilene, Amarillo, Denton?, Wichita Falls)



Not to screw things up, but I would put Beaumont/Port Arthur with either the NE or Houston, based on the players from that area who attend events in those two areas versus Victoria and southward.

If this regionalizing and scheduling works out, I hope TDs at least consider it before ignoring it.

yeah that might be a good idea. from the players i know, Corpus is part of houston alsom which basically means the Houston region includes the SE region. what ya think?

actually, i'm eager to get a tourney map with dates, events and num players together to see that aspect of it all

C-tier
$200 added cash to pro's
$10 players packs
$20 fee to LSDGA

B-tier
$500 added cash
$15 players packs
$30 to LSDGA

thats cool , but what does the PDGA require?

I didn't really think that, I was using you to make my point.



Lyle, thanks for the clarification. I don't think I really thuought you thought that about what I thought, so much as that I thought maybe you didn't think I thought what I thought... I think.

For the record, I am absolutely in favor of the 54-week year, as well as the 30-hour day and the 8-day week. And every year should be a leap year.

2004
B-tier
$500 added
$10 players pack

2004 C-tier
$0 added
$0 players pack

2005 B-tier
$250 added
$10 players pack

2005 C-tier
$0 added
$0 players pack

They are reducing the standards to get more sanctioned events and more B-tiers in particular. As we all know that is not the problem here. Lets up the levels to make it a better level for everyone.

Does an image absolutely have to already be posted on a web page to be able to be attached on here?!?

to the exatness of your question, no it does not need to be posted on a web page. however (and perhaps this is the real question) it MUST be on a web server.

if you have something you would like to show here, just send it to me at [email protected] and i will throw it onto one of my servers and reply with its URL.

While those funds be nice, how about $0.25 a player?

But even easier, how about this which was added to the LSDGA.com first page:

For TD's interested in having a web page for your event, I can host one on this site for $5.
I would prefer to do it for free, but I need to develop a method for paying for this site.
You can send your information in hardcopy, text, PDF, Word, or HTML formats.

If I can get a couple of dozen events signed up, I will cover my immediate costs, and you will have your event information linked from the calendar for interested players to see.

Anything more and we'll be playing the recycling event sponsorship game. You give me $50 for my event, and I'll give you $50 when it's time for yours.

What's more to the point, we had discussed having a separate scale of tournament certifications. This was to cover amenities not covered in the PDGA sanctioning agreement.

Things like food on the course,
water on the course,
level of sponsorship,
payout standards (flat vs spiked),
several other things, but Larry ran off with the meeting minutes.

These would let players know in more detail what to expect before showing to play in an event.

Any suggestions as to what needs to be included and how important it would be in helping you make your decision as to which tournaments to play ?

Hey now! I thought I sent all of those things out to everyone! :D Didn't I?

I've got to teach some rock climbing this weekend, but I'll see about resurrecting those minutes again. (Didn't we post them on this msg board somewhere right after it?)

Anyway - I can see that I've got a lot of "catch-up" reading to do...I'm not the Pro level message board poster that I used to be...I'm strictly a recreational participant out here these days! :D

i realize that these are prolly not majority answers, but since ya asked :):

food on the course - dont really care about it. i can bring my sandwich fixins in a cooler and thats cheaper than even a $5 players lunch. and i'm not gonna rely on there being "enough" food cuz i've been burned too many times by not getting back to HQ before the early finishers got 2nds or 3rds.

water on the course - its nice but not a requirement. i;ve got a gallon jug that fits in a cooler, and can carry plenty in my pouch. that being said, water IS nice - just not anything close to a requirement.

level of sponsorship - i guess its good, but as an AM player i do not typically reap any substantial benefit from that.

payout standards - as spiked as possible! this whole concept of flatter and flatter payouts is not for me. i DO understand, and even respect, the arguments for it though. i just prefer to play for as substantial as possible a prize. given the choice i would rather play in a top 33% payout event than a top 50%.

players package - its nice i guess, but i dont get excited about it. i would rather get a tshirt OR a disc and get assessed $10 than get both for $20. and i'd rather not get anything at all than get assessed $15 for a $5-8 shirt or $15 for a $8 retail putter!

dont care about hotel deals cuz i'm gonna stay at the holiday inn express if there's one close by.

DO CARE about sanctioning and ratings!!! )not really points, because as someone else noted, anyone can go to worlds, points or not :confused:)

do i go or not? TIER and PROXIMITY! {and if i've been ripped on a payout even one time before, i wont ever come back to that TD's events. only happened once so far, i'm lucky!}

oh yeah, almost forgot - portapotties would be GREAT for lighted wooded suburban courses (bryan :D), but not having them would only keep me from peeing, not from attending.

Here's a link to the notes taken at the First Annual TD Summit and Tournament Conference: Click on this puppy! (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=PDGA%20Tournament%20Info&Number=102756&Searchpage=1&Main=102412&Search=true&#Post102756)

Now who is running away with the notes Gary? :D

Not to screw things up, but I would put Beaumont/Port Arthur with either the NE or Houston, based on the players from that area who attend events in those two areas versus Victoria and southward



Speaking for the Beaumont/Port Arthur area here. We draw from Houston and we are drawn to Houston, nothing else fits for us. We have 3 players(myslef included) that will stray further out to play an event but that is it.

When we have an event here it is nearly 100% locals and Houstonians. And we have upto around 10 poeple (which is about 25% of our total player base) who semi-regularly go to Houston to play.

Pat the exact specifics of the requirements are secondary to the fact of making TD's accountable for what they do and the level of event they promote. You come across as very negative. This is all about making better events, better schedules with better facilities for those events that do stick around in the long run when the time comes to start reducing them.

Larry thanks for posting the link. I have not read it but did hear all about it last year. I was to be there that night but I was in the middle of the 24 Hour Marathon up the road.

I will fully support a model that makes TD's accountable for holding to certain standards. That is one problem with the PDGA right now. A TD screws up one year and yet still gets the same sanctioning the next year. Now with the standards being relaxed what will happen.

This is not about adding more money to Pro's, finding a hotel deal or lunch but raising the level of all events that apply for sancationing. Whatever it is that will help accomplish raising this level with benefit everyone. Pro's, Am's, beginners etc. I would like to quote the back of the volunteers t-shirts from last weekend but don't want to misquote myself. If anyone has a t-shirt or sweatshirt read the back :)

well sorry chris if you think i'm negative. i thought i was responding to gary's specific list. i cant help it that those things are not on my list of gotta haves, or my answers are not what you want to hear. if an event had all of those, then it would prolly be a pretty good event, i'm not arguing that. in fact, i'm not arguing anything. i'm just responding to gary specific inquiry. how that can be "negative" is beyond me.

btw, i 100% agree with the accountability aspect. it will be interesting to see what the magic combination of features is that brings players back out. does anyone remember how high the bars were a few years ago when events got better turnouts?

also, i've heard both Bryan (carrollton) and Terrry (vpo) offer up some rather convincing reasons why their events had lower turnouts than previous years - Bryan mentioned the new date caught some players unawares, and Terry simply had way too much stuff come up at the last minute in his non-disc golf life.

Thanks for posting that link again Larry. I knew it was around somewhere. :cool:

Chris - your input at the Summit meeting last year was missed. You've always held yourself to a higher standard than the PDGA.

I think that one of the primary concepts of the TD summit was a need to have a sort-of rating system, call it a grading system if you want, that rates different events based on the categories Gary mentioned. The notes helped refresh my own recollection of what we discussed. Things like water, lunch (provided/catered/close by restaraunts) port-a-johns and the like. These are the very things which differentiate one tournament from another. Many folks go to the extra effort of working on hotel deals, meal deals, transportation/car rentals (in cases of Worlds events) and such.

We thought there ought to be a way to grade a tournament (or maybe even a couple of grades) on how much effort they put into an event. This was intended to be a player aid when choosing between the B-tiers and C-tiers.

You stated:
I will fully support a model that makes TD's accountable for holding to certain standards. That is one problem with the PDGA right now. A TD screws up one year and yet still gets the same sanctioning the next year. Now with the standards being relaxed what will happen.




At no time did we discuss accountability. Whom exactly do you hold accountable for a screw up at a tourney? The TD? How do you hold him/her responsible? Who decides the punishment? The PDGA certainly has some clout, but how would the LSDGA hold anyone accountable? It's not like the Alliance can make someone not run an event.

We thought that establishing a tournament ratings/guidebook of State events with our rating of the event might prove a bit easier to wrap our arms around. We'd welcome any volunteer that wants to work on assembling such a thing! :D

I think publishing an annual directory might be a great way to demonstrate the value of paying a per-player or per-event fee to the LSDGA to underwrite the costs of the website and publication of the State tournamet directory.

We thought that establishing a tournament ratings/guidebook of State events with our rating of the event might prove a bit easier to wrap our arms around. We'd welcome any volunteer that wants to work on assembling such a thing!

i'd be happy to lend my online development skills to creating such a website. lets talk!

Sorry Pat I guess negative was the wrong word. It is people like you (the player) that Gary etc needs input from. It is people like me (the TD) that will conform to these decisions.

My hope is that my making TD's accountable and raising the level of events it will allow players to really see the difference between events to make an informed decision even more than ever. This will also help make the decision of a TD or club that runs a less than good event to rethink if it should be done the following year.

Better turnouts is a relative thing. More events...same number of people...less events...same number of people? As Gary said earlier whatever happens we still need to have an avenue for beginners to be welcomed to events to get their feet wet.

Time to finish up for the next few days. I have a team to help lead to victory :eek:

hey no worries... good luck to you and the team, and all the teams making the trek - i'm jealous!!!

Tournament Directory ?

An annual publication of events, TD profiles, stories, Tips and advertisements ? Even online it would be an interesting resource.

Grading??? What makes one event great to one person makes it stink to another. If you are talking about grading on amenities, even THAT can hairy imo�

I love the sound of spreading out our Texas MAJOR events. From the moment a �Texas Swing� of the PDGA tour was mentioned, it sounded like a bad idea to me. Areas around the state spend a good deal of time raising money for these events and it is a real shame that some of them could not draw even the top pros from Texas. The timing of the slot they gave us was also bad coming right after the USDGA.

In order for any of these large ideas to work, there needs to be some accountability beyond the PDGA for Texas events to make a �super schedule� like we are tossing around actually work. We need to have a plan and actually get it approved from the Texas TD�s AND the PDGA. IMO in order to have some accountability for scheduling purposes, there needs to be some kind of �hook� that ties all the events together.

I have been tossing around a points idea for a while (yea I know points blah), but figured the Team Disaster events which have typically drawn 40-70 do not have enough pull to put together something so grand. But if you incorporate some of these ideas into the plan it just might work.

Off the top of my head concept to be part of the �Texas Cup�

Initial panel is put together and decent events with some quality tradition are selected from each area (yes this could be ugly).

The TD�s of these events agree to pay a very nominal per player fee that goes to the Texas Organization (LSDGA if Gary is so willing). This could be as low as .25 a player and as high as $1 per player depending on the plan.

1/4th of the collected fee would go to charity, 1/4th to LSDGA upkeep and � to the (championship or something else).

In return the TD would agree to do 80% of a set list (or 100%) of items to make the event great (many of the items listed above). If they meet the requirements they are part of the championship again the next year. In order to become a new participant in year 2 you accomplish the list and apply for your event. It would seem very monopolistic to limit new TD�s and new areas from getting in on the deal (we would have a set mileage restriction and SUPER weekends once a month where a large tournament has no Texas Series competition to encourage travel).

The championship could be a trophy with a new name engraved each year for each division, or it could be added bonus payout at a shifting event (SN style) or whatever. Something simple for tournament players (5+ events a year) to play for�

Of course the PDGA would have to be on board if the LSDGA (may need a committee instead of one person if this plan is in effect) would have the power to say, NO you may not have an event on that weekend�

Anything we do is almost useless if there is no power to actually say NO and all the major players are not on board IMO.

Food for thought�

The term grading is a poor choice.

maybe each event would have a grading chart on the LSDGA web site with 10-15 multiple choice entries the TD would have to check off when he registered the event.

Toilet facilities (indoor plumbing, porta potties, bushes)

low entry-flat payout, standard fees and payout, low entry-trophy only.

Hotels close, Hotels in the next county, camping only

food provided, food available onsite, eateries nearby, pack a lunch.


Really just something to let a player know what he is getting into before they there. I mean San Saba and Round Top are great if you are expecting to camp out. Not very good if you go looking for the hotel and restaurant.

Wow, I go to work and you guys got real busy.

We need to look at what MADC is doing and model the LSDGA after them. They are much more organized than we are.

I totally agree with Chris on the PDGA requirements and told them so when they asked my opinion on the subject. (even when I was State Coordinator, I spoke about this with those in charge) I was totally against loosing the A and B-Tier requirements.

No matter what we do, there will always be a TD that will do what ever they want.

As it is right now, the PDGA will not santion a tournament without Gary's approval. So that means only A, NT and World event we have no control over. But I noticed that Waco moved back to it original month.

BTW, I like the idea of someting like 25 cent or even 10 cents per player to be paid to the LSDGA or just an event fee like was mentioned before. But then you will have those TD's who will opt out or just not pay.

What we need is another TD summit next year to work out the schedule for 2006.

Hear is the idea, either we pick a tournament (like Houstons Texas State championship or Waco) or we pick a meeting place and night and any TD or rep for the tournament would come to work out next years schedule. (and other things) You don't show up, you don't get you pick on your weekend.

I will fully support a model that makes TD's accountable for holding to certain standards. That is one problem with the PDGA right now. A TD screws up one year and yet still gets the same sanctioning the next year. Now with the standards being relaxed what will happen.






or the td doesn't get the reports in on time and meet payouts 2 years in a row for a "c" tier and gets an "a-tier" for 2005
:eek:

you guys are headed in the right direction mainly because of communication....KEEP IT UP!!!

I didn't really think that, I was using you to make my point.



Lyle, thanks for the clarification. I don't think I really thuought you thought that about what I thought, so much as that I thought maybe you didn't think I thought what I thought... I think.

For the record, I am absolutely in favor of the 54-week year, as well as the 30-hour day and the 8-day week. And every year should be a leap year.



LUMAH! O.K. say that again five times fast... :D

Hi Keith. Yes communication is good, committees and meetings not good :D Lets have a meeting to discuss when the next meeting is going to be? 20 guys sitting around a room arguing over what beer to drink next doesn't work.

I am personally against a TX Super Tour Tour that one event gets funded from the other large events. That is one of the reasons I let rip on Nez. Yes TX States has helped many other events and clubs in the past but you should help yourself first. Don't complain about sponsorship levels and money and expect others to give it you you. Let the work you do to get sponsorship benefit your own event. That is a positive not a negative by the way.

If we were to go down the path of picking one event to put money into I would vote for Waco's National Tour. The other 3 or 4 major events should be funded by local minis etc not the other majors. This is the way the PDGA intended the National Tour events to be funded anyway.

Well I should shut up and go throw :D Back Monday.

Thanks
Chris

does this look correct? (i had some questions about the border for NW and SW in particular)

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/texasregions.gif

i do not think the disc golf population is divided very equally , as represented in that map. the south east region which includes corpus and victoria has a very low player base.there is no way that region could support nearly what the austin , houston ,or dfw area could support.

Wow, that looks great! The only thing I'd want to add is a Region number in the middle of it, kind of like the one I sent you. By the way, I just realized that it had way too much white space due to my messing with it in MS Paint. I fixed it, but yours looks much better.

If we were to go down the path of picking one event to put money into I would vote for Waco's National Tour.



Under the fast thing I suggested, it would not even have to go to a particular event. We could do some cool thing like top ten embroidered patches for Texas Cup winners (Texas Series)?

My suggestion is all about control. Without a lead person and group that actually have some power, TD's will still be in free for all mode. I think Gary/LSDGA COULD have that power.

But would Gary really want that power ?

[QUOTE]
If we were to go down the path of picking one event to put money into I would vote for Waco's National Tour.



My top 5 tournament list for 2004:

1. Waco Charity
2. Coastal Clash
3. GCCS Series
4. Pecan Park Open
5. Red Rock Show

I chose this list based on how the tournaments were ran and the professionalism of the TDs. I cant wait for the Big Show 2005.

But would Gary really want that power?

Prob. not lol

We could make a committee to handle the dirty work...

Personally, I feel like all the major players COULD make it happen where it is positive for the entire State as well as the events we run. As long as new tournaments have a way to grow and get involved, it could work. Yes it would be HARD work lol� Hopefully Chris can just us around on his helicopter�

The timing of the slot they gave us was also bad coming right after the USDGA.



What does the A stand for? I have heard people say this and I don't see Championship in a word starting with A.

On a more serious note. There are many benefits that can be gained from a TD Summit before the end of 2005. Many of the things that have driven players away from an event in an area or operated by a particular TD are due to a learning curve. We could all get together or talk more in person or online and those with experience could help those without. I have always paid close attention to what others are doing and I learn from the right turns and wrong turns others make. If we want to see the success of the events in our state we need to work to help those that make mistakes and help them understand why that turn was the wrong one. In most cases you don't realize you are making a mistake until it is too late, but if I have been bitten by a mistake I can point it out to you before you need a doctor.

Pat the things that you said you don't care about are on the top of most players list. You are certainly the exception to the rule in most of this, but it shows the reasons to consider all of the things mentioned. That being that each person looks for some of the same things and some different things from an event. Therefore all of this and more needs attention if you are going to run a successful event.

For example, I feel confident in saying that I have attended as many or more events than any other player in this state in the last 6 years. As I stated before I pay close attention to what goes on in case I can take something from that event to make my events better. In all that experience I had no idea that the lack of a private place to relieve themselves would be something that could keep a woman from playing the Z Boaz Open. This is something that has slipped my mind each year until it was too late and it has caused at least one lady to not participate, and probably more. This may seam insignificant to all of us guys, but to the ladies it is important.

I'm just surprised that you only heard it from one.

I am still trying to get a checklist of things like this together for new and experienced TDs to make sure the little things are taken care of as well as the big things.

Make that a CLEAN, private place to relieve ourselves. I'd rather go in the bushes than in a port-o-potty that seems to have been there a few months.
Thanks guys

yeah, i know my prefs for amenities are not most others. i totally understand why a lot of players want that stuff. hope to see ya in dec... keeping my fingers crossed :D

i'm shooting for something like this, but cleaned up, prettier, and better presentation of the data. with the ability to navigate between months/weeks and the events' historical attendance record.

http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/texas_0409.gif

what other data elements would make sense to include?

Pat,
That map looks great. I'd add a couple of fields--what region the event was held (although for many it would be obvious), and the number of players that it attracted that LIVE in each region. That adds quite a few fields, but it would show us which ones have a propensity to attract players from afar.

One of the things that I have yet to figure out is this, If you go out and play Ball Golf, first off chances are better than good that you paid something to play, anywhere from $10 to $300+ at Pebble Beach. Second if you go into the pro shop you will see dozens of products that will make you "play better", or "look better". Third, if you watch any TV on Saturday or Sunday you will likely see a few advertisements for products that will make you "play better". Fourth, none of them mind paying for the golf or the stuff to make them "play better" or "look better", in fact many of them will go to great extremes to buy a "better game". Along the way they are playing rounds and spending money doing it because they see the value in the actual play.

So that said, why is it that very few if any of the players judge an event and participation in that event on the value of the golf played in that event. This event must have a great players package that "I better not have to pay for in any way", and "you really should feed me while I am here", and "oh by the way I will need to see the payout before you publish it". The point is that there are so many great things that are an added bonus that many if not all of us have come to expect that most people are overlooking the value of the experience the golf being played at these events.

There is no doubt this will be a long hard road for all of you down there. I am watching how this all shakes out so I can also 'learn' what works and what dosent.

Its very apparent there will never be a 100% win for everybody, there will always be a few folks that just cant be satisfied. This of course is established by the various threads and responses.

Some feathers are undoubtedly going to be ruffled. The degree of the ruffling will be the true testament of who you are as a person as well as what sacrifice you as an individual looking to 'grow the overall, bigger picture' as opposed to lining your own pockets with 'swag', food, water, etc.

Good luck on your venture!

Pat the things that you said you don't care about are on the top of most players list. You are certainly the exception to the rule in most of this, but it shows the reasons to consider all of the things mentioned. That being that each person looks for some of the same things and some different things from an event. Therefore all of this and more needs attention if you are going to run a successful event.





I agree with this. I'm very much like Pat in terms of what I want and why I play, but I watched at Chris' event in Victoria and at TS this year and it is obvious that what Mace is saying is very true! People like those things and they want them easy and well organized.

those would be good feilds to add. obviously the event's region isnt too difficult, but where the playa lives will require a serious attack on the database... prolly have to wait for the weekend for that. i think gary is also going down that path, so we should be able to get some good numbers

In my analysis I place Corpus by itself (well with Southwestern Texas) and Victoria with Houston (that is how Gary breaks it out I think). Also, I included the Golden Triangle with Houston, and Tyler with Dallas Ft. Worth. This is only important in that I looked a little at travel and the observation is that people don't travel much. I don't think those changes would affect the conclusions I drew.

yes, i hope some of those relationships come out in the numbers also. here some of the i'm wondering about:

doe Tyler players got as readily to Nacadogches as DFW?
does Waco pull equally from both Austin and DFW? what about Temple?
Where do college station players play/identify with?
Is Beaumont really a in the Houston sphere of influence?
Does Tyler pull better from DFW, Central, or Houston?
Does Naco pull better from DFW, Central, or Houston?

As I posted earlier, Beaumont is completly dependent upon Houston and has zero association with Tyler. Our locals play Houston events and our tournies could only survive because of Houston players. Our more hardcore players general tend to play further away tournies that other Houstonians are attending also.

Also Beaumont and its's surrounding areas are known as "South East Texas" ( trust me goto www.southeasttexas.com (http://www.southeasttexas.com) ) Corpus is in South Texas. No reason to confuse people by changing the names of what they really are imo.

i believe ya. from the map it sure seems that way also. hmmm.. maybe some minor revisions to the "regions" is in order?

As far as Nac is concerned, they have one tournament a year and draw from all over the state for it, so they are a hard one. I do know that no Nac players come to any Beaumont area tournies though.

Tyler does not pull from Houston and vica versa.

I don't know of any actual "Nac" players. JT Peebles was one before he graduated, but now lives in Beaumont. Scott is right, they just pull from DFW, Austin, Houston, and the triangle. It's once a year, but it looks like next year it will be back-to-back with World Am Doubles, which I think will hurt attendance. It's a shame too, because those courses are great, and the event was fabulous last year.

thanks for that input!

stayed tuned for the results of an intersting crunch i just did on events/players in TX from 2001-2004! gimme about 15 minutes to make it readable.

<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" bgcolor="#000000"><tr><td><table cellspacing="1" border="0"><tr><td bgcolor="#C0C0C0"></td><td colspan="3" bgcolor="#FFFF80" align="right">[B]2001</td><td colspan="3" bgcolor="#FFD5AA" align="right">[B]2002</td><td colspan="3" bgcolor="#FFCAFF" align="right">[B]2003</td><td colspan="3" bgcolor="#AAFFD5" align="right">[B]2004</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">[B]Month</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">[B]Scheduled</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">[B]Reported</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">[B]Players</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">[B]Scheduled</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">[B]Reported</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">[B]Players</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">[B]Scheduled</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">[B]Reported</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">[B]Players</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">[B]Scheduled</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">[B]Reported</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">[B]Players</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Jan</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">221</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">7</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">227</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">7</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">7</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">424</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Feb</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">1</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">82</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">1</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">142</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">67</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">568</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">7</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">6</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">300</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Mar</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">5</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">1</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">42</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">87</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">6</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">239</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">7</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">7</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">495</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Apr</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">5</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">1</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">79</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">5</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">316</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">239</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">370</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">May</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">177</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">235</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">243</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">229</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Jun</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">1</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">85</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">253</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">221</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">6</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">243</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Jul</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">96</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">94</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">136</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">148</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Aug</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">1</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">1</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">1</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">82</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">167</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">124</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Sep</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">1</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">19</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">168</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">221</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">5</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">79</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Oct</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">5</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">292</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">363</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">5</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">398</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">5</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Nov</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">1</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">87</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">2</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">244</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">377</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">Dec</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">112</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">4</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">96</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">3</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">0</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">[B]Totals</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">[B]34</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="7%" align="right">[B]13</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right">[B]959</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">[B]34</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="7%" align="right">[B]29</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right">[B]2317</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">[B]41</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="7%" align="right">[B]49</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right">[B]3132</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">[B]57</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="7%" align="right">[B]38</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right">[B]2379</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">[B]Players/Event</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right" colspan="3">[B]74</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right" colspan="3">[B]80</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right" colspan="3">[B]64</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right" colspan="3">[B]63</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="C0C0C0" width="8%" align="right">[B]Unique Players</td><td bgcolor="FFFF80" width="8%" align="right" colspan="3">[B]482</td><td bgcolor="FFD5AA" width="8%" align="right" colspan="3">[B]896</td><td bgcolor="FFCAFF" width="8%" align="right" colspan="3">[B]885</td><td bgcolor="AAFFD5" width="8%" align="right" colspan="3">[B]842</td></tr></table></td></tr></table>

couple things:

1) many events in 2004 have not yet reported!
2) players per event (for reported events) show very little variation between 2003 and 2004, but does seem to drop off after 2002
3) this isnt shown by this data, but a lot of the event number increase is due to local/regional "series".
4) because these numbers are pulled from the PDGA database, the player counts do NOT NOT NOT include non-members! (can range from 10-25% of the total)
5) number of unique players served is remarkably consistent, and looks like it may actually hit a new high in 2004!
6) this does NOT NOT NOT include NON-SANCTIONED events. (not because i dont wanna, but because the source is the PDGA data.)

although these are very raw numbers at this point, it appears that it is too early to draw any conclusions about more events hurting attendance. certainly the early analysis indicates that we are drawing as many if not more DIFFERENT players - and that does NOT include PDGA non-members!

(oh yeah, if Reported is greater than Scheduled, its because when i created the Scheduled numbers i counted some so-called "seperate" events as single events - such as Waco ADV vs AM/Rec (two events on the same days on the same courses) and some oneday events that had ams on sat and pros on sun... but then because they are officially seperate events in the database, they increase the reported event count - that number is the result of a query, not my eyeballing)

Check PM Joey.

After reading the thread about the tournament on Mother's
day in California, I thought surely we didn't do that in
Texas. So I look it up and there is a tourney. The Waco
Charity Cup. Our only freaking NT event, and it's
scheduled on Mothers Day. Is this another result of us
being fed our schedule from above?

oh yeah, it's also on Kentucky Derby day. ;) My decision just got easier.

Is this another result of us
being fed our schedule from above?



Yes, the PDGA schedules all NT and A tier events, makes it interesting for TD's that have a long running event that gets it's date jacked .

After reading the thread about the tournament on Mother's
day in California....


We don't do that out here like y'all do there. :)

Yes, I apologize Rhett, I didn't read
far enough. Sorry. This is just really
getting to me coming on the heels of
the Z Boas/Victoria fiasco which was also
put into motion by this top down BS.

Next year, let's put National Doubles on
Easter and move another well attended tourney
to the fourth of July. :mad:

Next year, let's put National Doubles on
Easter and move another well attended tourney
to the fourth of July. :mad:



Don't give them ideas James...

James, it's a lot easier to juts blame the PDGA than it is to look for root causes or figure out what might've been better.

The fact of the matter is that there are a ton of tourneys in Texas. Too many for each one to get it's own weekend.

A separate and distinct subject is the National Tour. The goals of the NT are far different than the goals of any existing tourney. The NT was created to establish a "brand name" for disc golf, to use for the purposes of gaining nationwide sponsorship. The NT is supposed to highlight the best players in a tour of some kind of significance.

Unfortunately, it seems like many TDs see the NT as just another A-tier but with more prestige. What I mean by that is this: it seems like many TDs take it personally if they're event is not an NT event. It's like they feel slighted because they have a kick-[*****] tourney and, dagnabbit, we should be of the elite level on the NT too. Then some of these TDs start complaining about not wanting to require collared shirts, or wanting to serve beer, or not wanting to follow this NT requirement or that one or whatever. The NT has it's own agenda and guideline, and just because a tourney is not an NT does not mean that all the NT events are better than it.

So the bottom line is that being part of the NT is juts that. Being part of the NT. If you don't want to be part of it, then don't. If your Waco tourney wants to be an NT event, then certain things are required. Like being given a date. I'm guessing the TDs wanted to be part of the NT are were willing to be part of it with all that it entailed. If it sucks so bad they should opt out next year. You should ask the TD if s/he thinks it is worth the cost, and express your opinion about it.

Sorry for lecturing.

I will talk to Joey about this, but I suspect the date was
fed to him. Knowing what I know, I doubt that Joey pleaded
with the PDGA to keep the Charity Cup as an NT event. I
also know that he is much classier than I am and will not
criticize the PDGA.

Two points to your post. The first is the "prestige"
associated with being an NT event. Just speaking for
myself, I could care less. The only thing the NT label
has done for me is to increase the entry fee and make me
dress better. If it were not for the chance to qualify
for the USDGC, I suspect other players could care less
about the "prestige" of the NT label. At any rate, the
event is prestigous in itself, due to the work of Joey and
excellence of the courses. It is easily in the top 3 Texas
events in my mind and it's ashame that I must make this
decision when virtually every other weekend does not
contain a top 3 event.

Secondly, how many NT events are there anyway? 10 to 15?
Why would the PDGA want to schedule one of their big events
on Mothers Day anyway?

Just to clarify, I've never heard anything bad about Waco or the organizers. :) I have heard rumor of other TDs that flet slighted by not being selected for the NT, and then those same TDs not wanting to stick to the requirements after getting a shot at NT-ness.

But like I said, never heard anything like that about Waco. :)

Also like I said, if you read my post, the NT was established for a specific purpose. Not every tourney should be an NT, nor could they all be. And just because a tourney is not an NT doesn't mean it isn't better than every NT.

As for scheduling, the NT is supposed to make some sort of geographic sense. Dates have to fit where the rest of the tour is at.

Waco has historicly been on Mothers day weekend. Just ask Joey.

This may be the last Waco NT event, at least when I last talked with Joey. He is really a one man show and it is getting harder and harder to get sponsorship.

If any other tournament in Texas got to be an NT event, it should be Texas States.

I think us folks here in Temple got stuck with mothers day the last two years (for sure we did last year) and Waco changed their schedule. It could be vice versa though. I think I was told that the Waco Charity Open Pros and Temple Open were schelduled on the same day this year. :mad: Hopefully we will be able to move our Temple date.

Waco has historicly been on Mothers day weekend. Just ask Joey.

This may be the last Waco NT event, at least when I last talked with Joey. He is really a one man show and it is getting harder and harder to get sponsorship.

If any other tournament in Texas got to be an NT event, it should be Texas States.



Now don't go getting all crazy. We have thought about the idea and have had people pushing for it. BUT, it would require more headaches to deal with than we can handle now. Plus, we've been told we'd have to move States to Spring, not a good idea.

It sounds good to me though. I can see it now a NT at one of my favorite courses. :D:D

I wouldn't mind seeing states in spring. Maybe it wouldn't rain so much!

Weather isn't the problem. Sponsors & Volunteers are.

the great thing about disc golf in texas is we can pretty much play year round!! this is why we have so many tournaments!! i for one do not feel this is a bad situation by any means!!