Ok I thought I would put this out there. Through a LOT of experimenting, I have found a way to add extra weight to certain discs without altering the appearance. So far, the treatment has only been tested on Innova CE and Gateway E plastic.

Innova CE Leopard:
Purple translucent
Measured weight: 174.2 g
Measured weight After 1 treatment: 181.5 g

Gateway E Wizard
Orange
Measured weight: 172.7 g
Measured weight after 1 treatment: 180.1 g

The treatment is applied to the underside of the flight plate. If done correctly, it is very difficult to detect, even on a translucent disc. This, of course, makes the disc illegal for play, but it would not be hard to get away with it. There is no substance ON the disc. The material is absorbed INTO the disc.

This has not yet been tested on Innova Champion or Discraft Z plastic, but I will test them and keep you updated.


(p.s. I don't plan on using these discs in tournament play)

Why would you even try this? :confused:

Why would you even try this?



Good question

That is awesome....I would love a 180g Leopard...hahahaha

UPDATE:
I treated the E Wizard again to see if it would gain even more weight, but it only gained a gram.

I tried my experiment on a Clear Dayglo Z MRV and this disc soaked it up. It went from 175 to about 190! Impressive! This disc is a tank now!

Why would you even try this? :confused:



I'm bored and I've got alot of extra discs lying around!
:cool:

Plus, I'm fattening my discs up so I can eat them in the winter!

What are you using to do this???

Sooooo


You gonna tell us what the hell ya doin to do this or is this one of those looks like ya gotta figure it out your self things??

And does it change the flight path???

If you played with different weights in winter, wouldn't that affect your throw come spring? I know alot of people have troubles with 150class tournaments, but that is the point.

I friend of mine has a 182g roc, it was a missed reject from innova, it says 180 but is so beat now it probably weighs 180 now, but he loved that thing.

Why add weight to discs? Because you can throw them very hard without them turning over! Have you ever thrown one of your max weight discs a little too hard? Let's say an Orc, or a TeeBird. They flip and don't come back, or if they do, it's not enough. I would imagine a 180 Champion Orc would be tough to flip, yet it would stay straight for a long time. You could throw as hard as you want and it would not flip. I bet you could add a bunch of D. Just don't hit anyone!!!

Just don't hit anyone!!!



Yeah I can't wait until we see newsheadlines "Killer Used 'doped' flying disc in assasination!"

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

It's pretty simple how he's doing it, I tried a very similar method and it works great. I went to the local gym, stole a few 5lbs weights, painted them the color of grass, and duct taped them to my disc. Now they are 2000+ grams and won't flip when I throw them into a strong headwind!

DiscGraham, What you doing is unethical. Your encouraging people to add weight to their discs. Even though it's illegal in a Tournament. Real smooth buddy! :mad:

PT Woods
# 20431

I have some 138g E Sabres that I would love to get up closer to 150g.All I need is whatever you are putting on them to increase the weight.Please
don't lead us on and not tell us your secret.

People do all kinds of stuff to their discs. Hes just messing around. You can use ANYTHING in an unsanctioned tournament. Plus he said we wasnt going to use them in competition anyway.

This is a terrible thread.

It sounds to me like a desparate cry for help...... or attention.

FOUND: Undetectable way to add weight to Premium Discs.


wouldn't you be able to detect it by.... weighing it?

More weight does not equal more distance, what is the goal here?

Is it "Because I can"?

doesn't weight add stability?

: ) :

Graham,

Are you using supercritical carbon dioxide (SC-CO2) to increase the weight?

I am always looking for new ways to cheat!

People do all kinds of stuff to their discs. Hes just messing around. You can use ANYTHING in an unsanctioned tournament. Plus he said we wasnt going to use them in competition anyway.





The treatment is applied to the underside of the flight plate. If done correctly, it is very difficult to detect, even on a translucent disc. This, of course, makes the disc illegal for play, but it would not be hard to get away with it.



You are a moron graham. And pimp, you're almost there.

People do all kinds of stuff to their discs. Hes just messing around. You can use ANYTHING in an unsanctioned tournament. Plus he said we wasnt going to use them in competition anyway.



how do you know,he says it's undetectable.can we really trust this guy now ?

What is the point here? I found out how to cheat, but I'm not telling?
Low class move, in my opinion.

I found that if I have a really bad lie, like in a bush, If i put my foot on the fairway side of the mini, no one calls it!

/sarcasm off

I guess where ever a Graham Johnson is playing the TD will make anote to test him. lol

You gonna tell us what the hell ya doin to do this or is this one of those looks like ya gotta figure it out your self things??



This is so easy. He is using anabolic steriods. With BALCO's help, of course. They say that steroids make guys' "under sides" get really small (and lighter). They have the opposite effect on the undersides of discs.

This is pitiful. Not only would someone want to underhand the sportmanship of this game. Which is the best of any sport I have been envolved in. I went to check out what level this guy plays at, Pro, Am or what, but the PDGA number he put down as his was Steady Ed's.

I would not trust him and if I saw him at a tournament I would have his discs weighed. It's just not cool, Disc weight maximums were put in to level the playing field.

I really hope Graham does not try to talk anyone into using these discs in a tournament. As well, most nonsanctioned tournaments, like the Southern Nationals events down south, use the PDGA rules of play. That would be a discrace to be disqualified for using modified discs. Even worse if you did not win while cheating.

Whoa guys you are all going crazy.

First, I'm not telling how I did it because I don't want alot of people doing it. It would go against the rules of the PDGA and that's not cool because fair play is what we are all about.

Second, I'm not trying to get anyone to use these illegal discs in tournaments. Anyone who is serious about disc golf would not even consider an illegal disc, such as myself. I mearly said that it would be easy to get these discs into a tournament. If they weigh the discs (which they probably do at big tournaments) they would know right away that these discs are not legal.

Also, if any of you knew me, you would know that I throw Gateway plastic, and most of it is S. You can't add weight to S using my method. My discs are clean and I would never tamper with the discs in my bag, OK?!

You guys need to calm down.

Well it's just a dumb topic to have brought up in the first place.

Thats not good enough. If what you said were true, you would not have started this thread. It contradicts what you just said.
-Josh

If they weigh the discs (which they probably do at big tournaments) they would know right away that these discs are not legal.



I went to 5 A Tiers and 2 Majors last year and NONE of the TDs at ANY of those tournaments checked discs for weight issues. So they dont weight your discs at ANY tournament unless someone complains or thinks you are using illegal discs.

I will agree though that you guys are FLIPPIN out about NOTHING. Who cares how heavy your disc is. The only time it would help is in the wind and if you dont know how to play the wind it wont help that much anyway. So all of you need to stop crying and moaning about him adding weight to discs that he doesnt even use in tournaments. WHO CARES. Not me but i would love to see what a 185 gram Crystal Challengers flies like :eek:

Aww discrap, this topic should have never been brought up! It just gives dishonest players more ideas to cheat and to play with dangerous illegal discs that could hurt fellow players. Wouldn't you think?

Also if you are telling us that you didn't post it for that reason then let us know what crack pipe you're smoking from cause you�re full of it!!

Josh

There are SAFETY reasons to not have discs weigh more than allowed by manfacturing guidelines.

I've been hit with a disc before - it doesn't feel good. Thankfully, it was only my leg. I have seen others take plastic to the jaw and eye area of the face - NOT a pretty sight and I'm sure it felt even worse.

It's ILLEGAL to have/use overweight discs in PDGA play for a REASON!

I have a 192g Cyclone2...but it came from the "factory" that way /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif :eek:
:D

By the way, its still in a box :D

What is the point here? I found out how to cheat, but I'm not telling?
Low class move, in my opinion.



That's all we need is for some idiot to launch a self-made 225+gm driver and split sombodys forehead open.

Between all the threads on Cameron Todd, Kevin McCoy and this Cheating thread Disc Golf sure isn't shedding positive light to new players. :(

PT Woods
# 20431

Geez......What a bunch of Ninnys. The guy does not use them in tourneys. Its his disc to do what ever he wants with. He is probably ruining them anyway. Have you had a chance to test the discs? I wonder if it is soaked in equally? It probably just wobbles now. How about you PM me with the secret so I can pull some pranks. Lets see what happens when you just soak one side of the disc. That would be hilarious to watch. Man dont get me started.

Whoa you guys need to chill. I did not start this thread on cheating. You guys have bent the topic way out of whack. I basically started this topic to post some information I found and to show that it IS possible to cheat without anyone knowing. I'm not suggesting to anyone that they cheat, and I'm not telling anyone how to cheat by any means. I am not a cheater myself.

If people are determined to cheat at disc golf, they don't need a stupid thread on the PDGA message board to learn how. There are infinate ways to cheat in this game and it doesn't take a genious to figure them out.

I don't think weight has anything to do with how bad it hurts when a disc hits you. I've been hit in the back with 165 and 180 Cyclones and they feel about the same and draw the same ammount of blood. Honestly, when you guys pick up a heavy disc, do you instantly start looking for people to hit with it? Do you regularly aim for people's foreheads? I take every precausion not to hit people. I won't even throw if I see people anywhere near the hole.

Anyways, I did the experiment all for fun. NOT TO CHEAT OR HURT PEOPLE. If that's all you guys see when you read this thread, you've got problems, not me.

Geez......What a bunch of Ninnys. The guy does not use them in tourneys. Its his disc to do what ever he wants with. He is probably ruining them anyway. Have you had a chance to test the discs? I wonder if it is soaked in equally? It probably just wobbles now. How about you PM me with the secret so I can pull some pranks. Lets see what happens when you just soak one side of the disc. That would be hilarious to watch. Man dont get me started.



If you do it right, it will soak in evenly and won't wobble. I would PM you the seceret if the people around here weren't so anal and scared. I will do it when all this calms down.

Well at minimum atleast this thread has shed some light on who all is willing to cheat and who is willing to let them. Keep your eyes open folks :)

DiscG:

I apologize that I used cheater in my comment. I never wanted that to come out that way. I know others have taken it way beyond the line in there posts.


I think the most reason people are upset is that it is ILLEGAL to do that by PDGA standards. So posting it on the thread explaining you know how to and have done it doesn't show much respect for PDGA rules regardless if you used it or not.

I would have not posted such info here.

Josh

I think the appropriate action in this matter, assuming you don't wish to use this method to cheat, would be to inform the PDGA the technique you used and your results. It would definately help them out, and it would prove your true intentions.

If it soaks in, I'm willing to bet it evaporates out. How transient are the results?

I don't understand the hysteria caused by Graham's messing around with discs. I mean you can go out and buy a wedge that can back spin a golf ball as much as Tiger Woods on his best day with little effort. While this is a PDGA website, I bet everyone on here, including the most seasoned tournament veteran still plays recreationally. I also bet those people like to see the limits of their game and like to have FUN. I mean come on... you can't hold 5 putters and throw at a basket til you make it (or multiple times if you are putting well) according to the rule book, yet everyone does it before almost every round. Like someone mentioned before, it could be a GREAT gag... imagine reaching into your bag and having your driver (or an identical one) be 20-30% heavier. Moral of the story... don't use illegal tactics in tournament play... otherwise... its a FRIGGON GAME... heck I learned to play with a give-away frisbee... not legal either but it was fun. Grow up and just PLAY the game. Oh, but... yeah... Graham... don't use those discs in tournament play /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Just finished cheating a couple of rounds with about 21 grams of lights on a disc. Looked like a police car. one red, one blue, and one white inova light on a 167 clear valk cool as heck. Flew like a wounded duck. Probably couldn't use it in tournaments though. Probably won't throw it at anyone either. :D

I too have an undetectable disc. Invisible to the naked eye, odorless, tasteless, and EXTREMELY lightweight this disc goes wherever I want it too! I'd tell you my secret treatment too but then everybody would be ridin my [*****] and what not and I really just can't deal with the stress right now !

EDIT: Man you can't say ***** here? Somebody must have filed a complaint with the FCC.

EDIT: Man you can't say ***** here? Somebody must have filed a complaint with the FCC.


Just be glad your screen name isn't a big *****.

hey pimp-you wanna know what a 185 challenger flys like?......a 175 rhyno! everyone needs to chill... it is fun to mess with your discs--none with any self-respect would cheat anyway, and he gave the disclaimer. i like to re-mold some discs with boiling water and pots and pans and weights. who cares..i'm having fun and not bothering anyone and would never use an altered disc in a tourny..

I think the appropriate action in this matter, assuming you don't wish to use this method to cheat, would be to inform the PDGA the technique you used and your results. It would definately help them out, and it would prove your true intentions.



I'm planing on doing this. Is there a specific e-mail address I should send this info to? I'm going to look for it.

If it soaks in, I'm willing to bet it evaporates out. How transient are the results?



I checked the discs today, about 24 hours since I "treated" them and was surprised to find that they looked 100% normal. (MRV had ripples but they were gone. Wizard had slight discoloration, but it was gone.) I decided to weigh the discs again to see the changes. The Wizard, which had been treated twice was back down to it's first treatment weight. THe second one didn't stick. The MRV had not lost a milligram! It's pretty cool. I'll keep you updated.

I took the wizard to the course today and it didn't fly much different. It seemed to drop a little faster, which is good because this was one of the early floaty runs.

Here is an ethical question in which can tack onto this thread about modified discs.

I assume that most of you have either thrown a NEW First Run Pro Line Aviar or Champion Aviar. Both "big bead aviars" I have noticed that from the molding process, there is a remnant thin line of plastic extending down from the bottom of the bead. This thin line of plastic scrapes your fingers when thrown. However, taking a small pocket knife to this extra plastic easily takes off this line.

Would this be considered a modified disc now? Local players rec and pro agree that it is not modified because it was a "manufacturing error" and I am simply correcting it. Also players who throw the above mentioned discs have also "shaved" off that line.

What does the PDGA discussion boards think?

Is this disc illegal?

Also note, that this "line of plastic" wears off within the first month of playing, in my opinion I am mearly speeding up the process.

E-mail [email protected] .

As far as removing that sharp bead........I've had to do it on both the QMS and the Q Sentintal......just rubbing it on concrete works great.

As far as everyone thinking that this is a way to "cheat"......just sounds like someone with no life and allot of time on their hands to me :D. I really don't see how a disc that weighed over 175 could help that much. Innova ran the Aero in CE plastic a couple of years back, most of the CE Aeros did not have the weight on them and most of the ones we weighed came in at 182++++.............I still have one that weighs in at a beefy 191 :confused: :D.

I don't know Graham, but I don't really think that he is doing this as a way to cheat, most players don't have a desire to throw anything over the PDGA specified weight except out of curiosity.....................Besides, he likes Gateway..........do you really take him seriously :D:D

Just F'ing with you........I actually like some of the Gateway discs :p

First, I'm not telling how I did it because I don't want alot of people doing it. It would go against the rules of the PDGA and that's not cool because fair play is what we are all about.



Are you a member of the PDGA?

I only "know" you thru this board. Thanks for the updates, not, I have lost a lot of respect for you. Just because it is interesting does not mean it should be spread around the board, i would give you the benefit of doubt and say you won't use it to cheat but what about copy cats? The fact that folks are saying stuff like it won't make much difference puluse! What's next directions for ???????.

anyone who calls out this thread as unethical is way too uptight!

i kinda doubt that the process is completely undetectable, and i certainly appreciate knowing that it is possible. if one guy can figure out how, then others can, and it is valuable to know it can be done so easily.

there's nothing wrong with doing some research and then sharing the results. what a person does with the information is the key.

About the extra plastic, you CAN remove it. I remember with the old CE discs, there was always a sharp ring of extra plastic around the edge. Most people just cut it off. It's totally legal. I think there's something about it in the rule book.

I'm not a member of the PDGA. I've always thought about it, but I just don't play enough tournaments. Still, I play by PDGA rules always and I couldn't imagine a PDGA member cheating!

I e-mailed the PDGA rules dept. yesterday and told them the whole situation. Hopefully they will do something about it.

I'm not a member of the PDGA. I've always thought about it, but I just don't play enough tournaments.


I know this is off the subject. But, IMHO this is not a good enough reason for you to be a non-PDGA member. Just join.

I'll play someone with modified disc anyday. If you think a couple of grams is what it takes to win a game your wrong. If some one beat you with heavier discs would you use that as an excuse for the loss? I believe it takes skill, not a disc dunked in a solution to win. The fact of the matter is he has not released the info for copy cat reasons. He is not using the discs in tournaments and if he did and won it would not be because he now has super discs. He would win because his skill level is above the openents. If you think it is cheating to play with damaged goods I would say the real disadvantage would be on the guy that is playing with altered discs.

I am not supporting cheating just kicking logic!

good point, unknown poster.

;)

I find that if I put a bowling ball on top of a stack of three 1999 CE ROCs it ruins two of them but the bottom flies at least an extra 25 feet. Is that legal?

Sounds like regular shelf life ware and tare to me. Bad staorage conditions should not make a disc illegal.

If you are adding weight to the flight plate but not the rim, your disc will probably tend to be more understable.

I beat Keith Johnson with his own discs

why did you do that? did he shoot better than you? do the whacks sting more or are the bruises blacker or bluer than if you used someone else's discs? are you excessively violent? did the beating alter the flight of the discs? would that make them illegal? are you a cheater?

DiscGraham, do you think the gunk you put into the disc penetrates all the way into the thick part of the lip, or is it just coated just a teensy bit into the plastic? Also, say, you wanted to put multiple applications onto the lip and none into the flight plate. Do you think the weight would stay in the lip?

I would like to hear what happens to flight characteristics when you put the gunk onto a straight-stable driver (Valk, for instance). I'm guessing that if the gunk is applied evenly that it would make the sharp driver flight more of an "S" flight.

I've thought it might be useful to have a really heavy disc (like a 300g Condor) as a training aid in throwing technique. Perhaps when throwing a very heavy disc, you'll be less likely to use the smaller muscles of your body to propel the disc, thereby improving endurance and power and longevity to your career when you go back down to normal weight.

Maybe it could also be used to strengthen tendons and ligaments and muscles. On the other hand, perhaps throwing a heavy disc wrong would simply destroy your body faster than with light discs.

I remember seeing about a 295g super puppy. Threw nice and straight (but the normal weights throw fine too). I would imagine a super-heavy super puppy would break even faster than the normal weights do.

I'll play someone with modified disc anyday. If you think a couple of grams is what it takes to win a game your wrong. If some one beat you with heavier discs would you use that as an excuse for the loss? I believe it takes skill, not a disc dunked in a solution to win. The fact of the matter is he has not released the info for copy cat reasons. He is not using the discs in tournaments and if he did and won it would not be because he now has super discs. He would win because his skill level is above the openents. If you think it is cheating to play with damaged goods I would say the real disadvantage would be on the guy that is playing with altered discs.

I am not supporting cheating just kicking logic!



Just like corking a baseball bat is okay too, right??! Sometimes you should think before you speak..... :o

gee whiz, people.

there is NO safety concern with adding weight to a disc. There is NO real performance gain except when throwing into a headwind... even then, the weight isn't the biggest factor. Adding weight doesn't really affect the stability of the disc unless that added weight changes its shape.

Stability is altered by modifying the lift generated by the disc. The "lift edge" is the one opposite the throwing hand. If the edge generates alot of lift, the disc will tend to be more understable. Less lift, more stable. The faster the disc spins, the more air is moving across the disc, and the more effective the lift edge can be. That's why more "snap" makes a disc "flip" better. As the disc slows down, less air is moving across the disc, and the leading edge loses its effectiveness, therefore generating less lift. This is why all discs will "hyzer out" eventually. Even the flippiest, most beat-up disc will turn left (RHBH) in the right conditions.

The concepts above also explain why headwinds and tailwinds affect discs like they do. A headwind increases the rate that air flows across the disc. a tailwind does the opposite. Therefore a headwind will make a disc act less stable. A tailwind will make it act more stable. These winds also respectively increase and decrease friction on the disc. This is why a really srong tailwind and a really understable disc are the best combination for distance. Updrafts are a big help too... but that's a different discussion for a different time.

Weight changes will affect high-speed turn, low speed fade, and glide. This is because a heavier disc slows down faster. The law of inertia tells us that a heavier disc will take more effort to spin (and for that matter, throw), but once it is spinning, it will be harder to slow down. Therefore, a heavier disc will be more resistent to the fricion of a headwind and will have the potential to fly farther into that wind. A heavier disc will also be harder to spin up, and therefore have reduced high-speed turn. Because the disc (generally) will not be spinning as fast as its lightweight counterparts, it will slow down faster and thus "hyzer out" sooner.

This is not as detailed a description as I would like to write, but hey... it's just one dumb thread :) I just wanted to point out that all this argument over adding weight to a disc is not as big of a deal as many of you seem to think. Yes, it is very illegal according to the PDGA. It is also unethical for use in tournament play... but if he is just wanting to do some experiments and see what happens, where's the harm? I guess his only real mistake was posting about it here. DiscGraham, ignore the peanut gallery. I, for one, support your experiements. Just like the rest of us, you're on the honor system when it comes to usign them in tournament play :)

one thing I forgot to mention is that a heavier disc will *seem* more stable because it won't be spinning as fast. This is kinda splitting hairs... but I think if we're going to argue about the physics of disc flight, we should at least get our terminology straight.

The faster the disc spins, the more air is moving across the disc, and the more effective the lift edge can be. That's why more "snap" makes a disc "flip" better.


I, too, am splitting hairs: I'm under the impression that it's the relationship of speed to spin that creates flip >>> more-speed/less-spin = flip. A sidearm throw does not generate the spin a BH throw does and is more prone to flipping. Perhaps a 'hyzerflip' is a 'faster' throw that has not been compensated with enough spin...?

on the contrary, a sidearm throw will generate more spin. most people who throw sidearm will either use a 1-finger or 2-finger grip. Most who throw backhand will use a 3-finger or 4-finger grip. A common technique to get more "snap" is to decrease the number of fingers in your BH throw by 1. Having fewer fingers in the grip increases the disc's spin by decreasing the amount of friction it takes to release the disc. Another technique to get more snap is to use the "towel-popping" motion at the release point in your throw. This adds more spin (snap) and thus makes the disc turn easier.

Faster spinning discs also skip differently from slower spinning ones. Once again... different discussion for a different time. I think I already explained that one on another thread :D

DiscGraham, do you think the gunk you put into the disc penetrates all the way into the thick part of the lip, or is it just coated just a teensy bit into the plastic? Also, say, you wanted to put multiple applications onto the lip and none into the flight plate. Do you think the weight would stay in the lip?

I would like to hear what happens to flight characteristics when you put the gunk onto a straight-stable driver (Valk, for instance). I'm guessing that if the gunk is applied evenly that it would make the sharp driver flight more of an "S" flight.




When I put the "Gunk" on the disc, I only put it on the bottom of the flight plate. Since the stuff I use is really thick, you can smear it wherever you want. It doesn't run at all. When I did it, I only left it on the plastic for about 5 minutes, so it soaked in but won't come out.

If you wanted to, you could apply the "gunk" only to the rim, but you would have to work fast to get a uniform coat on it before it started drying. It is possible though. I would think the weight would stay there, but I haven't tried it yet.

All the plastics I've tested so far can only be effectively treated once. I tried a second treatment, but it didn't stay. I will probably do the rim of my Z-MRV just to see how much weight I can add. Hopefully it will be in the 210g range.

As far as putting it on a stable driver, I did treat a CE Leopard, which is very stable. The disc gained about 10g. The flight did change and the disc was more overstable, but this is because when I treated the disc, it sucked the dome in a bit and "flat-topped" it. It had more fade and more resistance to turn after that.


My original thoughts for doing this experiment was to make a super heavy work-out disc to use as a stregnthening tool. It doesn't really make a difference.



And to all you anal people out there, please note that I have not told anyone how I've done it, nor do I plan to. I have e-mailed the PDGA rules department with full details.

DiscGraham, I hope you keep experimenting with your franken-discs.

For the "anal," I'm curious, is it just the weight that's a problem with you? Meaning, say, if I tricked-up/gunked-up, say, a 150 Z-storm up to 175g, would that be as bad a problem to you?

How about if I epoxy a tortilla and beat you at a round of 18. Would that be considered cheating cause it is not PDGA approved? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Go buy yourself some game there anal ones..

Why have any rules at all?

How about if we sensor all the assumptions and misguided statements of the idiots. The mods are deleting left and right out of the bumps and rhymes thread, Why not all the ignorant assumptions made toward discgraham? Would'nt the fact that the information provided help the PDGA of current applications to modify discs? Oh yah lets just keep everyone ignorant and act like it does'nt exist. This sounds more like an AOL community. Dont search for information cause we would like to keep everyone ignorant and isolated away from reality. Why not use knowledge as a tool to prevent rather than target the person that discovered the modification? Knowledge is power and those that keep it to themselves have alterior motives to use it as an advantage over others. Help the internet grow by spreading information so we can keep building our library and keep growing as a society rather than trying to ignore reality.

What was that about?

Someone asked asked why get uptight about post-production-modifications to discs. I ask in return "why have any rules at all?"

What are you talking about?

For the "anal," I'm curious, is it just the weight that's a problem...?

i think girth is the most common complaint, not weight.

Why have any rules at all?

A threadworthy question; I'm just wondering the context here, as Discgraham has been quite open about this being BUT an experiment, NOT for competition, etc. I COULD infer from the query that M.B.A. is against the 'experiment' unequivocally, but I'm not sure.

Used in competition, these 'modifieds' certainly WOULD be cheating, useful or not, seen or not! Redundant!

I just see "it" as something dang interesting, and possibly fun. I plan to PM D-Graham when the 'novelty' wears off...

...do what now?

I am just stating that discgraham had an innovation and stated it was an experiment. Now all these people are ganging up on him. The freaking topic was "cheater posts dumb thread!" for like 3 days now. In what way did he say he was going to cheat. All I know is I have been in his situation on this board and igmos like to put words in peoples mouths. My previous post was to those people that cannot read and tend to add stuff between the lines with the addition of assumptions. They should be reported to the mods and have there posts deleted for at least darwins sake.

Shave the mullet and wake the fuq up . I dont know why people behave this way is all I am saying. They have a community for the ignorant, Its called aol.

If that last part was intended for me, GruNix, I've been 'mullet-free' the better part of a decade! :D

...as for sharing information, and people acting in an unexplained manner, are you aware you [often] have an abrasive way of doing just that? That's no skin off my nose, do as you see fit; just wondering if it's intentional. :confused:

If it's used for practice, how does this differ from putting a donut on a bat while in the on deck circle? Or using a fungo to hit flies?

Yeah i want a 250 Gram Tsunami to practice with so i can make the muscles i use to throws disc BIGGER. That would be sweet. Kind of like warming up in ball golf with a Weighted Driver. That would make warming up alot easier.

I think i will add some lead tape to one of my discs for warm up purposes :D

Am i a CHEATER NOW??????????????? :p

If that last part was intended for me, GruNix, I've been 'mullet-free' the better part of a decade! :D

...as for sharing information, and people acting in an unexplained manner, are you aware you [often] have an abrasive way of doing just that? That's no skin off my nose, do as you see fit; just wondering if it's intentional. :confused:



Do you fall into the catagory of people I am talking about? re-read it and you make the decision. Was not directed to you, judt the people attacking discgraham.

Do what Now?

Your post started "RE:slo". How do you KNOW ALL Graham's critics sport mullets, or was that an 'in general' insult? And, you still didn't answer my question. :o

wow...such anger and hatred are abounding

I'm curious as to how much weight can be added and if you could add specific amount of this weighting agent. Maybe if you weighted the agent before applying it to the disc and then weighted the disc after to see if there is a chemical change that happens. I think that if you had a 165g disc and through modifications it becomes 175g with in the legal limit then what�s the problem.

Re: Lurker Nick's profile: Cute, so one of your 'hobbies' is battling yourself?!?
...that's what the English on your profile suggests...you may want to revise that...[?]. :confused:

Your post started "RE:slo". How do you KNOW ALL Graham's critics sport mullets, or was that an 'in general' insult? And, you still didn't answer my question. :o


Sounds like his making fun of all those Mr. Neck's out there with the first name of Red.

It was a general insult, more like venting. The only question I see is asking me if I am aware that I am abrasive. Why yes I know I am abrasive. Actually I am an [*****] if you do not know me. Does that answer your question Mr. Meat?

I just want to know if you guys are going to call me a cheater when you see my throwing my Predator with lead tape on it??? I think ill make it like 300 Grams. Am i a cheater???????????

Post Production Modification. Not legal for PDGA tournament play.

If you are using it to goof off or train with, then there is no problem. If you are using it in a sanctioned tournament, you are cheating. Of course, as with every other rule in the PDGA rulebook the chances of you getting penalized for cheating are about zero so it's up to you and your own morals to decide whether to use such a disc or not.

Are you playing in a tourney? Are you playing for money? If not then why should any of the rules apply other than to improve your game for a tourney? If I wack golf balls at the baskets does that make me a cheater? No, that means I am playing and having fun just like most of the people on this board. Stop being so anal and relax people. This is what DG is all about. At least for me anyway. If you want to play head to head then we will play that game. If you wanna throw 10 drives per hole then we can play that way to. The difference is one is compitition and the other is playing and testing drives for FUN. All these rules and bashing would totally scare any newbie I know away from DG cause they would all be coming off like [*****]hole$

Actually I am an [*****] if you do not know me. Does that answer your question Mr. Meat?

I'll have to take your word; I don't know you! :D:D:D

'meat' was my handle for two years, or so...my legal name is available through my profile...and it's all for fun, not obfuscation.

Now, you've changed you post since I replied, you've directly answered my question! That's fine; no anger here...now we're all on the same page...unless you'd like to admit to/deny being _Nix_! ;)

I edited to correct spelling. I am not NIX. Why would you make that assumption?

Yeah, why I am even being mentioned here??
I have a full profile....

Yeah, why I am even being mentioned here??
I have a full profile....



allright (grunion)i mean josh admit it !! jeckyl and hyde!!

Look here Efrain, You just concentrate on that ankle of yours and get your butt in gear for another time.

yeah whatever josh!!!! hahahaha

Thats funny! :D:D:DSHut your pie hole Eron, your giving away my second personality! :o/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D:D

I'm curious as to how much weight can be added and if you could add specific amount of this weighting agent. Maybe if you weighted the agent before applying it to the disc and then weighted the disc after to see if there is a chemical change that happens. I think that if you had a 165g disc and through modifications it becomes 175g with in the legal limit then what�s the problem.



I haven't found an accurate way to add weight to the discs yet. Not all the material soaks in, so weighing it before wouldn't do any good. Every disc I've tested will only handle 1 treatment, however every surface of the disc can be treated so it may be possible to add 30+ grams to a disc.

As far as treating light weight discs to make them heavier, I have not tested this. All the discs I've tested so far have been close to max weight. Max weight plastic has more weighting agent in it, therefore it is more dense. Who is to say how much more weight a less dense disc would absorb. If I was to treat a 150g Champion disc, it may actually go way beyond what is capable with a 175g champion disc!

I think if you treated a light disc and the weight range was still acceptable for that disc, it would still be legal for use. But light discs are usually a slightly different shape than their heavy counterparts. This is because weight, and plastic, must be removed to fit into that range.


I've just thought of another experiment involving weight adding that could actually be a good way to cheat. I'll only say this once, It is not my intention to cheat in the game of Disc Golf. This next experiment involves specific weight distribution on a disc. Basically, I'm taking all the mathematics and physicis that went into the Aerobie Epic and putting them into a disc with strong, predictable plastic. I'll let you all know on the results.

Don't hate me for being creative.

I think if you treated a light disc and the weight range was still acceptable for that disc, it would still be legal for use.



Nope. Post production modifications are illegal for PDGA sancitoned play.


802.01 DISCS USED IN PLAY
.
.
.
C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics...

Man I havent laughed this hard in awhile. You guys have way too much time on your hands beating up Graham. And Graham you should post how to do it and really **** these guys off. Thatll show em. He He He. Anyone ever heard of a disc ever getting weighed anyway at a tournament? I thought not. I just moved to japan and wondered if they weigh them here. One could easily get an unmarked (yes they miss some at the factory or one could use inside sources) and just put 150 on it. Everyone knows if you cheat, youre just cheating yourself out of the enjoyment of winning. Besides like someone else posted getting hit with either a 150 or 175 still hurts. And how about the 200g tank that came out a while ago. Also alot of innova discs weigh in heavier than marked. If you dont believe me try weighing a couple. Ive found 4/5 to be wrong. Just my two cents and I especially liked the part of a doped disc used in the assassination. too funny. Peace people.

Man I havent laughed this hard in awhile. You guys have way too much time on your hands beating up Graham. And Graham you should post how to do it and really **** these guys off. Thatll show em. He He He. Anyone ever heard of a disc ever getting weighed anyway at a tournament? I thought not. I just moved to japan and wondered if they weigh them here. One could easily get an unmarked (yes they miss some at the factory or one could use inside sources) and just put 150 on it. Everyone knows if you cheat, youre just cheating yourself out of the enjoyment of winning. Besides like someone else posted getting hit with either a 150 or 175 still hurts. And how about the 200g tank that came out a while ago. Also alot of innova discs weigh in heavier than marked. If you dont believe me try weighing a couple. Ive found 4/5 to be wrong. Just my two cents and I especially liked the part of a doped disc used in the assassination. too funny. Peace people.




proper punctuation is EVERYTHING, brother... :D

Basically, I'm taking all the mathematics and physicis that went into the Aerobie Epic and putting them into a disc with strong, predictable plastic.





Somehow I'm more than a bit skeptical about the amount of genuine math and physicis (sic) actually involved here. But it sounds as though you are having fun, so enjoy... :D

Unfortunately, and alluded to above, the only way to know if a disc is the "correct/legal" weight is to compare its 'written' weight to that on a scale.
Many of my older discs no longer have their written weight due to wear, etc... My 156g 2nd run FlatTop Valk comes to mind...or was it 157g???

If anybody is looking to cheat at disc golf in PDGA sanctioned tournaments, there are only about a billion-and-one easy ways to do it and you will never get caught. So if you define cheating as "getting caught", I guess you'll never cheat.

But that's a lot different from adding weight to a disc and pretending it's legal. It isn't. Not a big deal. It's up to you and your own personal integrity as to whether you want to break the rules or not.

So have fun, experiment with your discs, see what it does. But don't use the modified discs in PDGA sanctioned play an lie to yourself that you aren't cheating. That's all.

But don't use the modified discs in PDGA sanctioned play an lie to yourself that you aren't cheating. That's all.


...or you'll go to Disc Golf Hades...the basement cellar!

Disc Golf Heaven is on the roof! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Whatever.

You can cheat all you want in a number of ways and never get caught. It's up to you.

Never have (intentionally), never will (intentionally)...SIR! :p

As I saw in a post further up the Thread, alot of weights are not current with the label. I have bought discs and put them on the digi and be like 3 grams off. Now there goes that theory of corresponding them with the weights on the disc. I would have to say that 4 outa 5 discs I buy are wrong!

You can cheat all you want in a number of ways and never get caught.

hmmm... there's actually only ONE way to know this a certain truth!

Like when JakeL said he puts his foot to the side of his marker to improve his position. Nice going, glad I dont have to play with him.

I wonder if the discs might be weighed prior to being stamped. This may be a possible reason for the inacurate few grams.

Like when JakeL said he puts his foot to the side of his marker to improve his position. Nice going, glad I dont have to play with him.



You obviously don't understand the concept of sarcasm.

I thought the rules were to have your foot behind the disc. The marker is obviously smaller than the disc so why would'nt you be able to put your foot on either side? It would still be behind the disc if the driver was still on the ground. I just play behind my driver, I always lose my darn markers....AAARRRRGGGG!!!!

Read the rules--

It makes no difference if you use the thrown disc or a marker-- you must have a point of contact on the line as drawn through the center of the disc/marker from the polehole.

--Mike

I thought the rules were to have your foot behind the disc. The marker is obviously smaller than the disc so why would'nt you be able to put your foot on either side? It would still be behind the disc if the driver was still on the ground.



If you place the marker at the "top" of the disc, as the rules specify, then putting your foot to the side of the marker would put at least part of your foot in front of the original lie. That being said, the post was originally intended with some sarcasm -- after all, gaining, say, 3 inches of distance toward the basket is hardly a huge advantage (unless you are only a foot way, in which case you would gain 25% :D).

Unless you can't see the chains from your legal lie, but you can see the chains when you "accidently miss your mark".

Ya see, a couple of inches doesn't matter one bit. That's why people always miss to the side that gives them an advantage.

Is there a point to all of this?


:confused:

Is there a point to all of this?


:confused:



of course there is !! post count is of the utmost importance!!!! :D:Ddamn whores!! :D:D

Is there a point to all of this?


Only that you can't follow a thread.

FOR EVERYONE AND ANYONE WHO WANTS TO KNOW HOW I DID IT.


I will not be sharing my secret with anyone. Please do not PM or e-mail me and ask for details. I am keeping this information confidential so that people who may want to use this for cheating won't get the chance.

The PDGA has been notified and will be revising their rules to account for this kind of modification. The information will not be released by me at any time. If for some reason it gets out, I take no responcibility for anyone's actions or illegal discs.


I did a specific treatment on a Z-Wildcat lastnight and have not yet had a chance to test it. This is the first disc that has been treated on the rim and flight plate. They retained their original shape and appearance. I added about 5g to a small specific area. I will test it tomorrow and post results.

He's making it up as he goes along.

Didnt sound like sarcasm to me. And please forgive my punctuation, I dont spoke too well.

All in the name of science.

The PDGA has been notified and will be revising their rules to account for this kind of modification. The information will not be released by me at any time. If for some reason it gets out, I take no responcibility for anyone's actions or illegal discs.


I was just thinking, wouldn't 802.01 C. cover this already? "Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics"[/i]

A heavier disc would undeniaby fly somewhat different than it originally did, thus altering its original flight characteristics. Of course it would be very hard to discover if someone actually ha dused an undetectable method of adding weight. But I don't think that's the point.

I know a lot of people argue that "if we cannot discover it, and hence cannot enforce the ruling, the rule is obsolete and should be removed". I would rather than just see the "legal" aspect of interpreting the rules, also see the rulebook as guidelines to a way of thinking. If the rule says that this kind of modification is illegal, it will tell new players that we shouldn't accept this kind of behaviour/actions. And I think this alone is also an important part in raising new kids, and new players in general, to our way of thinking. Yes, of course there will always be someone who will try to bend the rules to his/hers advantage, but that should not be a reason to ommit a certain rule from the rule book. Sorry, got a bit side-tracked there...

Oh, yes, I have also in the past experimented in, for muscle-building purposes, adding weight to favorite discs just to have more weight for my throwing muscles to work with. My method, maybe a bit more crude ;), was just glueing round thin metal plates to a couple of discs. One very "detectable" downside of this is that if you practise with such discs a lot, you will quickly lose a lot of timing, even though your muscles will be stronger. I achieved better results by working my legs, butt and torso in the gym for strength and explosivity (is there such a word?), an equaliser band for working the swing motion, combined with a lot of throwing technique practise on the field.

SwePeter, try adding very light plastic to your routine for technique and timing. The light plastic (140 to 150) will enable you to find a very smooth and quick techique, as anything else wont work with light plastic. Then, transfer that quickness and technique to heavy plastic.

Sorry for the thread drift.

It does, but they are going to spell it out more clearly for people who may want to try this little experiment.

Sure, if you can prove it altered flight characteristics. How you gonna do that?

Also, any disc over max weight is obviously illegal. But who brings a scale to a tournament? And who's going to weigh in everyone's discs?

But who brings a scale to a tournament?

hahaha.... you have to ask that on a disc golf board? :D

People actually carry scales in their cars? I thought the sorting and weighing would all be done at home.

diggie

But who brings a scale to a tournament?



hahaha.... you have to ask that on a disc golf board?


What reason would there be to have a scale at a disc golf tournament other than to verify the legality of the discs ?

This next experiment involves specific weight distribution on a disc. Basically, I'm taking all the mathematics and physicis that went into the Aerobie Epic and putting them into a disc with strong, predictable plastic. I'll let you all know on the results.

Don't hate me for being creative.



I don't think anyone has a problem with your creativity. It's your personality they hate.

Ok, I'm totally, totally, kidding about that. Just couldn't resist.

I actually hit "Reply" to say that the kids messing around with their plastic today are going to be the next generation of disc designers. Way to take some initiative, Graham. And it's good to see at least a few people understand that discovering a way to cheat doesn't make you a cheater.

As they say: Guns don't kill people. Guns make killing people easier.

I actually hit "Reply" to say that the kids messing around with their plastic today are going to be the next generation of disc designers. Way to take some initiative, Graham. And it's good to see at least a few people understand that discovering a way to cheat doesn't make you a cheater.



That's probably the most rational post on this thread yet.

I finally got to test fly the Z-Wildcat with the specific weight addition but it didn't really have any effect on the flight.

But man that Wildcat is a great disc, huh?! So is the Valkyrie. It's a shame that these two great discs get overlooked in favor of their "superior" brothers.

Of my 75 some odd discs, almost half are Valkyries. To me, the valks are the most nearly perfect disc, as you can, with the right technique, make them do anything. Right turn, left turn, helix, hyzer-flip, even roller! They are finicky, though, and if thrown imprecisely, they can produce undesired results.
A great disc to learn with as they require great finesse.

The Cat is the bomb! I carry 3. A 2004 World's 174 (These are flippy! I've got 4 that are nothing like any other Cat), a 169 Phenixdiscsports stamp and a blank 174. BTW, they're all color-less except for some white in the rim. The clear plastic just feels different to me. I look at the Z-Wildcat as a "modern" (in production) CE Valk. I've even got some from the 2003 Cross Canyon that could pass for 2nd run Valks!

I too have found the secret to adding weight.

McDonalds for breakfast, then I get the Gattis Pizza Buffet at lunch, then when I ready for dinner, I switch to the Olive Garden's all you can eat Pasta Night!

I have already passed all of you in weight and style!! :D

3 year old thread revived! :D

Wow, I just read this entire thread. I wonder what the newer plastics would do with similar testing. FLX get stiffer? I want a ROCK HARD FLX CHALLENGER!!!!!!!!

so you mean a cam todd challenger?

I need a Cam Todd Challenger with some Ds on it!!!

I need a Cam Todd Challenger with some Ds on it!!!



IHaveSomeButWhatDoYouHaveThatIMayWant?

They have the DOUBLE Ds on it???