Since he's not the type to go out and politik for votes, I have appointed myself his official campaign manager.

Jim is on the ballot for NY State Coordinator. If you are a NY State resident (or want to look like one), I strongly urge you to vote for him when you renew your PDGA membership. I don't know the other guy that's running, so I guess that's reason enough to vote Jim in.

The fact that he's promised me the State Rep spot for the USDGC next year has nothing to do with my endorsement. Ok, just kidding, he didn't promise me that. He does, however, have some of my garden tools in his garage so I might be able to work out some sort of trade.

He did say that he would run a qualifier tournament for the above-mentioned USDGC spot, which is something we in NY have never had. I don't think I'd win that, but if I can convince him to hold it in my yard and use only Dr. Fred's PVC baskets I'd have a shot.

this past year Let Feedom Ka Ching on 7/4/03(C tier), in Rochester, NY was the qualifying tournament. The USDGC spot went to the top open player who would attend the USDGC.

I disagreed with this for the following reasons:
-it's on a holiday, where many already have plans
-no one outside of western ny knew it was the qualifier.
-the spot for the USDGC is based on 2 rounds of golf
-local advantage.

problems something else: where would the tournament be located? Rochester/Buffalo is bad for Warwick people, Warwick is bad for us. I personally think it should go to the top rated player at a certain date with a minimun number of tournaments played. I'm also working on a points system where finishes at NY tournaments would give someone points, most points wins.

This past year Doug Corea won. he is only 2 points behind the top rated player in the state, and at the time was playing better than him.

Let me know what your thought on a points system are. I would really like to get a proposal to Rich Bevins(state coordinator) well before the season gets going, so that everyone knows about it.

Luke,
We did something similar here in Ohio last year for the spot. Sanctioned Ohio tournaments were used in the system, using the PDGA points system as the guideline. You could only earn points from beating other Ohioans, not out of staters.

Highest point total wins the spot. I think a list of the tournaments used was generated early enough so everyone knew what the tournaments would be.

Very fair and had no complaints. Just make sure the list of tournaments are geographically fair, or use all of NY's sanctioned tourneys (just a lot more work). This way if someone has already qualified and is in the system it would just bump down to the next person. This method gets the most die hard state rep. who was willing to go to many tournaments to get his/her spot.

Hope this helps.
Adam

Dan- I sent you a PM with some basic ideas for the points system.

Adam- thanks for the input. I had forgot a couple of things to add in.

One thing I ran into: different layouts for different divisions. This only hurt the sole PDGA member playing masters at Let Freedom Ka Ching, and dan doyle at Animalfest and NY States, because he played pro2. Pro2 won't be a problem, it's gone now, and if a person that plays pro masters wants a chance toqualify he'll have to play the same courses as the open division.

I created a points system that should work. 1 point for every NY'er beat or tied at a C tier or above in NY in 2004. For the upcoming years USDGC spot it will switch to 6/7/04- 6/6/05.

Here were the top 3:

Name Rating Points Tournaments played

Doug Opiela 972 35 5
Doug Corea 970 30 4
Bobby Jones 966 21 5

Luke, one problem I see with that theory is the necessity of beating another New York resident to earn points. At tournaments in Warwick or Yorktown Heights (FDR Park) we have a lot of out of staters playing. There aren't as many NY golfers in this region, so it would be tough to qualify even if you kicked butt down here.

Just as an example, I could theoretically win 2 tourneys at Warwick and beat guys like Steve Brinster, Scott Howard, Bob Graham, Adam Goodman, Mitch Sonderfan and Joe Klosky. I'd get nothing for that. I could win at FDR and beat a bunch of NEFA guys like Cahill, Dussault, Marcus, etc. Still get nothing.

The guys in Rochester would have a huge advantage in that situation since there are a lot more NY'ers playing there.

The nice thing about the USDGC spot is there is no specific criteria required to be a state rep, other than nomination by the state coordinator. Maybe an essay contest would be best? How about one of those 'color in the flag' kinda things from elementary school?

*Before someone like Jeff goes nuts, I did say 'theoretically'. :D

Luke, one problem I see with that theory is the necessity of beating another New York resident to earn points. At tournaments in Warwick or Yorktown Heights (FDR Park) we have a lot of out of staters playing. There aren't as many NY golfers in this region, so it would be tough to qualify even if you kicked butt down here.

Just as an example, I could theoretically win 2 tourneys at Warwick and beat guys like Steve Brinster, Scott Howard, Bob Graham, Adam Goodman, Mitch Sonderfan and Joe Klosky. I'd get nothing for that. I could win at FDR and beat a bunch of NEFA guys like Cahill, Dussault, Marcus, etc. Still get nothing.

The guys in Rochester would have a huge advantage in that situation since there are a lot more NY'ers playing there.

The nice thing about the USDGC spot is there is no specific criteria required to be a state rep, other than nomination by the state coordinator. Maybe an essay contest would be best? How about one of those 'color in the flag' kinda things from elementary school?

*Before someone like Jeff goes nuts, I did say 'theoretically'. :D



Yea, because I really thought you were being serious when you said you could beat guys of that caliber. :p

Gimme a little credit, dude! :eek:

Luke, one problem I see with that theory is the necessity of beating another New York resident to earn points. At tournaments in Warwick or Yorktown Heights (FDR Park) we have a lot of out of staters playing. There aren't as many NY golfers in this region, so it would be tough to qualify even if you kicked butt down here.

Just as an example, I could theoretically win 2 tourneys at Warwick and beat guys like Steve Brinster, Scott Howard, Bob Graham, Adam Goodman, Mitch Sonderfan and Joe Klosky. I'd get nothing for that. I could win at FDR and beat a bunch of NEFA guys like Cahill, Dussault, Marcus, etc. Still get nothing.

The guys in Rochester would have a huge advantage in that situation since there are a lot more NY'ers playing there.

The nice thing about the USDGC spot is there is no specific criteria required to be a state rep, other than nomination by the state coordinator. Maybe an essay contest would be best? How about one of those 'color in the flag' kinda things from elementary school?

*Before someone like Jeff goes nuts, I did say 'theoretically'. :D



Yeah, but New Yorkers are competing for the NY spot, not out of staters. Also, lets be realistic. The top 10 pros in the state reside in the Buffalo- Rochester area. I saw that and started thinking that it really isn't worth it for me to come down to Warwick or FDR since I may get only 2 points. My proposal has 3 out of 7 tournaments downstate, with only 1/3 of the state's pro players in that area. If someone is good enough and wants to qualify bad enough they will make it up here.

I will take a look at this past years stats, and see if that change is possible. A problem was that at Warwick there was Pro2. I'm pretty sure that the top 3 would still be the same though.

I would suggest getting more players :D

Glad to help Luke. Seems like we are old friends, but neither one of us are old! :D

Luke, I still don't understand why it matters who you beat. I can almost guarantee the field at NY States the last few years had a higher concentration of 970+ rated players than one of the comparable Rochester events. It's not like New Yorkers are going to be playing against only New Yorkers at the USDGC, either.

Whatever gets done this year, let's hope it will be made known throughout the state. If it's Rich, Jim, Tom, Dick or Harry deciding, it would be nice to know how.

At last years States there were no NY Residents playing Open. Same thing with Animalfest. At FDR there was a non- current resident playing open(I think- Ted Phillips) and two current playing Masters.

New Yorkers are only eligible for the spot, and should be the only ones that matter when competing for it. The winner for this past year would not have been any different using all players rather than just NY'ers.

It may change as there is no more Pro2 at Warwick events. Maybe after the 2005 spot is awarded in July the system could be changed after Animalfest results are looked at. It may be that the Pro field won't increase because the players came from masters and Adv., or just don't want to play with the big boys in open.

I'm not saying this to be mean or rude. But no one downstate seems to be beating any of those 970+ players. Look at the results. The system can always be changed after the results are looked at.

Just to muddy the waters a bit, let me weigh in on this subject. I've heard some pretty good arguments expressing differing points of view. However, Harold Duvall (who runs the USDGC) has established the qualifying situation for the event not just to attract the world's best players, but also to attract other players who have given to the sport but don't qualify based on their skill level. In many cases state reps have appointed players to attend this event and caught a lot of abuse for not sending the best player. I'm pretty sure this goes along with Harold's philosophy. I think part of Harold's thinking is that people that have done a lot for the sport deserve some recognition and "perks" for their efforts. That is how I got to attend in 2003. And it was one of the thrills of my disc-life, even though I played poorly and only beat 1 player. But my feeling is that if I spent my leisure-time playing as often as others rated in the 970's play, I'd be rated in the 970's too. Instead I spend an inordinate amount of time behind the scenes promoting the sport, designing courses, etc. (I've played about 10 rounds of casual golf in 2004). That's my choice and I'm not complaining but I for one was excited that Harold designed the system in such a way that allowed me to attend. If state reps use their authority properly if their method of determining the rep to the USDGC is to reward a worthy player then I think it is a good thing. If they abuse the authority and send their best friend for the heck of it, that's not a good thing. I'm not advocating that NY State should do it either way. I'm just presenting the process from another viewpoint. If that seemed like a reasonable selection method, maybe there could be a mechanism for nominating worthy people and somehow conduct a vote. Just a thought. By the way, I will automatically qualify for the 2005 USDGC (NOT as the NY State rep, but in addition to, I believe) by virtue of running the warwick NT event in 2005.

Dan Doyle
Warwick, NY

This is not meant to be against you Dan, but the way it happened. I did not like the way you were selected. My understanding was that you asked Rich(state coordinator) and he gave you the spot. There were players that didn't know how the selection process worked, and when they found out you had recieved the spot already. They felt they weren't considered before the spot was given. I want to create a system where the judgement of the state rep is not needed.

This is why I want to create a standard system that everyone will know about and everyone will have a chance to win. After changing it as needed I will submit a proposal next month. If approved I will make sure that every pro in the state knows about it. I am also willing to track the points online, and they will be updated as soon as I can find results(I'll be at 6/8 tournaments at least)
Even a first year pro me like or a experienced pro master like you can win. Do the better players have a better chance? Yes. That's how it should be.

As to volunteer work, the state's top ranked pro spent probably over 1000 hours building a course over late 02 and 03, and spends time on upkeep as needed. He did qualify in a tournament, and got to go in 03'. But he was never really given a chance for the state rep spot. My system will take away any favorites or another non- standard method of selection.

Luke, we probably need to clarify a couple of things here. First of all, I am NOT going to the USDGC as the NY State rep. Not in 2005, nor in the forseeable next several years. It wouldn't matter if Santoro was the state coordinator, heck, I wouldn't even go if I was the state coord and could send myself.

I have to agree with Dan, however, in saying that Harold Duvall has made it clear more than once that the state coordinator can use whatever means necessary to determine the state rep. It doesn't even have to be a state resident (although I tend to disagree with that part).

A points system is a nice idea, but I think the geographical disparity of the state makes it an imperfect solution. It's a long drive between Rochester and Yorktown Heights. Maybe choosing the highest rated player is a good way to do it. Maybe an essay contest would be good, who knows?

If you wanted to solve the problem created by points, which do not reflect how well you played but how many players happened to show up and not play as well, use rating points instead.

A guy shoots 975 and 950 at Warwick and he now has 1925 points. He goes up to Rochester or Buffalo and shoots 960 and and 965 and now he is up to 3850 points. Does not matter how many show up so long as there are ten 'gators.

I'm enjoying the discussion because of my role last year in "Flipcitygate: The Scandal That Rocked Ann Arbor and Absolutely Nowhere Else in the State, Curiously." Because I was acquitted eventually in all that, and even promoted, I can now make even more money off the made-for-TV movie rights.

That is an intersting idea. I'll look into it and what would have been the outcome for the past season and if there are any problems. The question that would bring up is minimum amount of tournaments played, probably 5 out of the 8 A/B/C tiers in the state. Or if you play all 8 do tonly the top 5 count? I still think the spot should go to someone who plays a fair amount of tournaments in the state. Someone who only plays their home course for 2 tournaments should not qualify.

One of the only problems I would see with using this for the 05' spot is that Let Freedom Ka Ching, Animalfest, and the RFDO if it is moved will probably not have their ratings updated by early July.

Maybe we should go with the points system for this years spot and see how it works. Then, if it doesn't we'll switch to the ratings.

That is an intersting idea. I'll look into it and what would have been the outcome for the past season and if there are any problems. The question that would bring up is minimum amount of tournaments played, probably 5 out of the 8 A/B/C tiers in the state. Or if you play all 8 do tonly the top 5 count? I still think the spot should go to someone who plays a fair amount of tournaments in the state. Someone who only plays their home course for 2 tournaments should not qualify.

You have to deal with that under either system.


One of the only problems I would see with using this for the 05' spot is that Let Freedom Ka Ching, Animalfest, and the RFDO if it is moved will probably not have their ratings updated by early July.

You can download the Excel file and calculate the ratings yourself if you choose to include later events.


Maybe we should go with the points system for this years spot and see how it works. Then, if it doesn't we'll switch to the ratings.

You can do what works for you and tell the guy from Michigan to butt out! :D

Luke....In reference to your post about my asking Rich Bevins if I could take the USDGC spot in 2003, that is somewhat correct. I don't honestly recall all the conversation via email that took place prior to my selection. However, my best recollection of how this came about was that when I heard at some point that no one from New York had been selected I asked Rich Bevins that if he was going to select someone that I'd love to have that opportunity. I wasn't privy to whatever thought process or search occurred after that. I was thrilled when he notified me that I'd be going. I was somewhat embarassed that I was at the point in my declining skill level that I was getting in through the back door when I knew there were other better players. But I assumed when Rich selected me no one else was interested in going for whatever reason. I recognize that selecting me may not have been fair to others that would have liked to attend, so for that I apologize.

As for the process going forward, one problem I have this year (July 2004 thru July 2005) is that if some kind of pts qualification system is going to be used, have some of those qualifying events already taken place? If they have then it's not right that they be included in the pts process unless everyone knew beforehand that these were qualifying events. Having this knowledge might have drawn others interested in quallifying to thse events. They can't make up the pts now after the fact.

I think just the fact that we are having a decent discussion about the process is a great thing. As long as whatever process that gets decided on is fair and gets publicized prior to the qualifying period then I think most people can live with it.

I think no one was interested because no one knew enough. Not your fault that other DG'ers didn't know. I probably would have done something similar if I thought no one else was going to use the spot.

I think even with 5/8 of the tournaments played it would still be better than giving it out at a 1 day tournament like it was last year. There are other things that will work when a new qualifying season starts in mid- July, that I'm not including in my proposal now.

Even with the part season I think it will work ok, and then changes can be made after the July 4th tournament.

The reason I'm against a part season only, or one tournament only is that it really does not represent how well a person has played over the season. I know the USDGC is one tournament, but why should someone not get the spot cause they struggled for a month or two early in the season?

From the 5 tournaments already played, the top 3 in ratings make up the top 3 in points, in order of their ratings. Seems fairly accurate, but it can change in July according to how the final results turned out.

Just a few comments from a post-lurker.

#1....Dan being chosen two years ago to represent NY.... No matter how he was chosen, I think this was a good thing. I am from the West part of the state (not the area Dan is in), and I know how many good things Dan has done for Disc Golf in general. Just his work alone on the Warwick course merits him in my book as a good representative. And I know Dan was honored to play. I was glad seeing Dan chosen as the NY State representative, especially since the State Coordinator may not have known Dan on a personal level. (just a guess)

#2.About the NY representative for 2005....I don't think any points system should be used for 2005 if some of the events being used have already been played. Possibly 2005 should be another year a Disc Golfer is hand chosen by the State Coordinator. (By what ever crediential they want)

#3..About a point system for future NY State representatives....

My personal thought is the best rated player from the state should get the invite....Possibly make a rule so that the same person would not be the NY State invite two years in a row. And then have a clause where every 4 or 5 years, someone gets chosen out of Merit, and not just rating.

But I believe a points system is not a bad idea either, and I do like Lukes suggestion. My only thought is perhaps make it mandatory that to qualify, you must play one tournament upstate, and one tournament downstate. (boundary lines determining what qualifies upstate and downstate, to be determined.)

I guess there are a few different ways to look at this. No one has mentioned the fact that there are quite a few qualifying tournaments available that the better players can use to win an invite to the USDGC. Most of these are 2 day tourneys similar to the USDGC format.

It can be argued that the State Rep spot should go to the highest rated player, but I think it can also be argued that the spot should go to someone that has done something in NY above and beyond just placing highly at tourneys or having a big rating.

Not everyone enters the USDGC with the idea that he or she will win the thing. Many simply would like (or perhaps even deserve) the experience of playing with the world's best players in what is arguably the world's best tournament. The state rep spot (to me, at least) should be used for that type of player.

Here's a question to ponder, for all the NY residents: Would you rather have a state rep that got invited to the USDGC based on his or her rating and placed in the top half of scorers, or one that placed in the bottom half but got there because of the work they have done for the NY DG community, behind the scenes putting courses up, or based on their history of dedication to the sport here in NY?

I know what my answer would be.

What would happen if a very high rated player moved to NY from say, CA, or PA? They would assume the top spot, but would they get the invite? Would there be a time in residency requirement?

Erick, there isn't even a residency requirement as far as Harold Duvall is concerned. Whomever the state rep wants to extend the invite to can have it.

It can be argued that the State Rep spot should go to the highest rated player, but I think it can also be argued that the spot should go to someone that has done something in NY above and beyond just placing highly at tourneys or having a big rating.

Not everyone enters the USDGC with the idea that he or she will win the thing. Many simply would like (or perhaps even deserve) the experience of playing with the world's best players in what is arguably the world's best tournament. The state rep spot (to me, at least) should be used for that type of player.

Here's a question to ponder, for all the NY residents: Would you rather have a state rep that got invited to the USDGC based on his or her rating and placed in the top half of scorers, or one that placed in the bottom half but got there because of the work they have done for the NY DG community, behind the scenes putting courses up, or based on their history of dedication to the sport here in NY?

I know what my answer would be.



What if you finish at the top and do a lot of work in the DG community? Because the people who do the most course maintenence up here are the top rated players. Shouldn't their ability to travel to tournaments, finish well, and do a lot of DG volunteer work locally put them at the front of your system?

And while you'll probably advocate somehow that someone down there does more, etc, upstate DG'ers will advocate for their local guy too. Dosen't seem like that great of an idea, since it would probably cause more complaining and bickering.

Good luck finding another way in which the downstate guys are a head of others. Becasue whether you know it or not that's kind of what you are doing. Maybe I am too, but I am trying to make it as balanced as possible.

Luke, relax dude. I am not advocating for any one person at all (unless someone wants to send me, lol). There are guys down here that do a ton of work, and I'm sure there are guys up there that do as well. I've met a few of them (I got to see Bob Honch ace hole 16 at Warwick once) and they are all great guys. All I am saying is that there are other avenues for golfers to win spots in the USDGC and that the state rep spot could be used differently. Doesn't mean it has to, it's not up to me. I just don't think forcing guys to travel 5-6 hours at a clip is the best way to go about it.