Can a player play from the "drop zone" without teeing off (ex. water shot where he feels he cannot make it across, around, over, so he decides to take the one stroke penalty and throw his third "throw" from the "drop zone")? A guy on my card this season wanted to do this, but we convinced him it was fun to try the shot from the tee, even if you do lose your disc. Still the question remains, is a player allowed to do this. By the way, he did make it across!

If this rule is covered in the rule book, just tell me that, and I will find it. Thanks! :)

Have you looked up "Drop Zone" in the Glossary?

Good post. I think that would be a nice option to have, so a DGer doesn't have to actually throw a disc in the swamp/lake/chasm to get to the drop zone.

But is it better to have a rule as it is, where perhaps the TD can ask for a waiver for a tourney, or is better to be able to simply walk up to a drop zone?

Or do some purists have a reason why we should never just walk up to a drop zone? (I guess the real purists would want us to unwind :))

Have you looked up "Drop Zone" in the Glossary?



Good question, and yes I have. Here it is;

"Drop Zone:an area on the course, as designated by the course designer or director, from which play is resumed after the preceding shot (1) was thrown out-of-bounds, (2) missed a mandatory, or (3) landed in a protected area (governed by 804.01, Special Conditions). The throwing area from within the drop zone should be clearly marked in a manner similar to the marking of a teeing area."

So nothing is mentioned about not teeing off which to me means you can't, but the question is still there for someone to answer. Maybe it is obvious because it is not in the rulebook, therefore you just simply can't do it.

That is not currently allowed in the rules nor has it been proposed by the rules committee in the current proposed rule changes. It is an interesting and fair idea.

About all the proposed rule changes do with drop zones is [1] define one if the TD forgets to for a mando, [2] and resolve that nagging issue whether a drop zone is an area where you place your mini and then play from behind the mini, or if it is played like a tee.

I offered that option on all the water holes at EIEIO. I guess I should've cleared it with the Comp. Director first. :o

It made sense to me, and several people used the option. There are some tough over-water shots for beginners, and we had lots of beginners playing.

The option was to advance to the drop zone and play as if you had plunked a disc in the water, so you were throwing three from the DZ. Except you still had all your discs.

It seems completely reasonable to me to allow people to concede the OB and take the strokes.

So nothing is mentioned about not teeing off which to me means you can't, but the question is still there for someone to answer. Maybe it is obvious because it is not in the rulebook, therefore you just simply can't do it.



The definition DOES answer the question, and it does so definitively. Read the definition again:
"Drop Zone: an area on the course, as designated by the course designer or director, <font color="blue">from which play is resumed after the preceding shot (1) was thrown out-of-bounds, (2) missed a mandatory, or (3) landed in a protected area (governed by 804.01, Special Conditions).</font> The throwing area from within the drop zone should be clearly marked in a manner similar to the marking of a teeing area."



In the absence of a waiver by the Comp. Dir., please explain how play can be resumed after the preceding shot if there is no preceding shot. (And while you're at it, check out 803.01.A.)

Right again fore, good show.

I offered that option on all the water holes at EIEIO. I guess I should've cleared it with the Comp. Director first. :o

It made sense to me, and several people used the option. There are some tough over-water shots for beginners, and we had lots of beginners playing.

The option was to advance to the drop zone and play as if you had plunked a disc in the water, so you were throwing three from the DZ. Except you still had all your discs.

It seems completely reasonable to me to allow people to concede the OB and take the strokes.

How 'bout they lay-up from the teepad instead?

There are any number of water holes around here where the option to concede the OB and advance to drop zone would likely end up saving even lower- and mid-level players (including mid- and lower level Open players) a stroke or more over having to lay up from the teepad. Hole #17 at Buckhorn (http://www.radl.biz/Courses/BUCKHORN/main.htm), where if your lay-up shot from the teepad comes up short or gets >15' off the fairway on either side, you may not have be able even see the basket, much less take a run at it, is one example. (It's ~225' from the Blue teepad to the front edge of the pond, and ~250' from there to the basket. The gap/window between the trees at the pond's edge is ~18' wide, and the ceiling is 20-25', and there's a drop of about 15-20' from the teepad to the water's edge.)

I've spotted and retrieved discs on this hole during the Buckhorn Meltdown the past two years, and it's not at all uncommon for a player to pitch out to the fairway from an obstructed lie for his/her second shot rather than risk losing a disc and taking an additional stroke. I haven't kept a strict count, but based on the number of tournament-thrown discs I retrieved during the Sat. rounds this year (93, plus an additional 11 not found or unreachable) I would wager that 5s are more common than either pars or 4s on the hole, and I strongly suspect, given the option of a difficult par/risky 4/possible 5 (throw from teepad) vs. an easy 4/possible circle-3 (throw from drop zone), that not a few mid-level and lower rated players (and, given the circumstances among the leaders in the final round) would find playing from the drop zone the more attractive option.

If a TD wanted to allow a player play from the drop zone as if he had thrown his drive o.b., the TD could do so without X-tier approval. All he would have to do is mark off a small area of o.b. immediately adjacent to the tee, a little place where the player could set his disc down o.b., and designate that for either one, you play from the drop zone.

Now that I think about it, I might've only offered it to the people playing the short pads. (Rec men and all women.) The short pads at EI are pretty much right on the water's edge, so you can either make it across or you can't. No laying up.

I didn't and don't suggest giving the option for all OBs. But at EIEIO it made sense for the short pads. The OBs at EI aren't so tough that anyone would gain any advantage by conceding the splash.

Bruce beat me to it. The easiest way to offer that option is to make an area adjacent to the tee box OB with that uses the same drop zone. This could also be used in cases where the second shot is the one that has to clear the water by making the teeboxes OB after the drive. The player would have to drive once, and then pitch back onto the teebox with their second shot to go the drop zone throwing 4.

I didn't and don't suggest giving the option for all OBs. But at EIEIO it made sense for the short pads. The OBs at EI aren't so tough that anyone would gain any advantage by conceding the splash.

As a concession to Rec/Novice players, I don't have a problem with something like this or with the scenario Bruce sketched, nor would I have a problem with extending a similar courtesy to Senior Grand Masters, Legends, or Juniors (under 13). In some circumstances, it might even be appropriate to extend it to Intermediate. For anything higher than Intermediate, though, it strikes me as a bad idea.

I just don't see where it would be better to take the stroke and move to the drop zone over laying up. Unless the drop zones make it east to get the circle three from the other side. I haven't seen drop zones placed so that they offer a good chance at holing out from the drop zone.

You should not be rewarded with the same score for trying the risky shot and failing as the player that plays the safe shot successfully. i.e. layup and go across + putt or try to cross, go to the drop zone and putt. The drop zones should require an approach shot, or an incredible putt.

I played in the Indian Summer around '99 put on by the UFOS at Sonoma State in CALI. They had this option on the baseball diamond hole. Throw 3 from the drop zone or risk a shot. It worked.

I would believe that the TD has a limited amout of artistic freedom to make rules such as these.

We've done it at our tourneys around long water holes. The smaller arms really appreciate it. If you know you can't reach a hole, why even try it? Give the shorter armed players an option. JMO

That's the idea, we are just trying to find a way to do it within the current wording of the rules without needing a waiver to allow it.

We've done it at our tourneys around long water holes. The smaller arms really appreciate it. If you know you can't reach a hole, why even try it? Give the shorter armed players an option. JMO

Again, why not simply have them lay up from the teepad? If the throw across the water is still too long, why not provide a "red" (or "white") teepad and have the entire division play from it?

We've done it at our tourneys around long water holes. The smaller arms really appreciate it. If you know you can't reach a hole, why even try it? Give the shorter armed players an option. JMO

Again, why not simply have them lay up from the teepad? If the throw across the water is still too long, why not provide a "red" (or "white") teepad and have the entire division play from it?

Sometimes laying up won't help, like some of those holes at DMACC where some of the girls would not have been able to throw across after laying up, so they got short tees.

Sometimes the TD wants everyone to be able to get ratings off the event, and he knows there are only a couple of players who can't make that throw. If he gives the entire division a short tee, he may short the entire division out of ratings.

Sometimes the TD wants everyone to be able to get ratings off the event, and he knows there are only a couple of players who can't make that throw. If he gives the entire division a short tee, he may short the entire division out of ratings.

If ratings are a concern, and the legitimacy of the event ratings (such as it is) is to be maintained, shouldn't those players be expected to play around the water hazard, which may well take some of them more than two strokes, rather than arbitrarily setting the bar a stroke?

I see no problem with requiring weaker players to go around the hazard, provided there is a reasonable way to do so. At a hole like #17 at Buckhorn, there is no reasonably clear route around the water. Put a beginner that throws 120' - 150' at the drop zone on that hole, and it may still take them 5, 6, or 7 shots from that point, because they have to go through the woods. This is where the PDGA design standards should be considered in making such a hole.

Drew, there is actually a route on 17.

Throw to the edge and then throw to the right in the area that we usually take to get from the tee to the basket. Then they throw from there to the basket. It takes the 270 ft water hole and breaks it up into 2 135 foot shots(or however long the hole is)

I'll give you that...but can a beginner hit that shot consistently? Most of the ones I've seen will have that shot hyzer out into the water about half the time.

well Buckhorn was not designed for beginning golfers. I see no problem with a hole like that simply because of the nature of the course

Since you have to drive 20 miles to get to another public course, we need to offer a beginner-friendly option. It would be different if it was 5 minutes from Kentwood.

Holes like Buckhorn 17 illustrate why the Disc Golf Course Design Standards mandate:

No player throwing from the shortest (or only) tee on a hole should ever be "forced" to throw over water that is normally greater than 18" deep (50cm). Have an alternate flight path (usually to the left) that gives player the option to not cross water.

(Now, if we could just get course designers to follow the design standards. :D)

It's also an illustration of why having alternative tees for rec and distance-challenged players is preferable to the "Concede the OB and go straight to the drop zone" option.

Carlton, a member of the course design group, asked me about that hole when it was being designed. I thought he said there was a bailout option to play safe from the tee? If not, there is precedent for holes where players who can't safely throw across water from the tee, can go to a drop zone. There were two temp holes I remember at the San Francisco Safari and we've had one on a course here for a while. There was a short tee on the other side of the water for daily play. However, sometimes in an event, say all Advanced players were to play from the Blue tees and perhaps a few Adv Women or Adv GMs might not be able to throw across and were given the option to go to the short tee drop zone with a two shot penalty.

Except that on some courses, the rec tee is the drop zone. :cool:

The drop zone came to mind yesterday while I was playing a quick round. I wondered why it is called a drop zone when there is no direction in the rules to actually drop anything. Is it called a drop zone as a nod to traditional (ball) golf terminology in the same way that we use birdie, par, eagle, etc.? Is the zone to be used as a teeing area or a place to drop your mini and throw from where it lands?

Based on an earlier post by Bruce, it appears that these questions are being addressed in the new rules book, hopefully definitively. In the past, it seems that the practice has been to use the drop zone as one would use a teeing area. I think it would be cool to use it as a place to drop your mini and take it from there.

Chuck,

The drop zone used is the recreational tee, but from that point, it's about 240' across the water to the basket.

There is a possible intermediate landing area, going around the right side of the pond. This would require two very well-placed anhyzer (RHBH) shots of about 150' each, both over water. This landing area is also guarded by lots of trees, so realistically it would take three shots (including a pitch-out) to get from the drop zone to the basket. Most beginners I've played with just go around the pond through the woods, not wanting to throw over water at all, and take 5-7 shots to get from the drop zone to the basket area. This has never been an issue in tournament play, to my knowledge.

In Carlton's defense, offering a good option here would have required cutting down numerous trees.

The only time that this is an issue(hole 17 buckhorn) is during monthlies when there are people out there that can't throw across the pond. Heck for some reason I can't throw across even when I lay up next to the pond.

It can happen where a hole gets an excellent rating for one skill level of players but not so good for others. That's the nature of our sport when we use public facilities for most of our league and tournament courses. We do the best we can to meet the guidelines where we can without cheapening the course where it's possible to excel. Hope to play Buckthorn on a visit sometime.

It is a nice course. Better played in the summer when everything is green and looks alive. Very difficult from the long tees as you have to be very accurate and precise on a number of shots.

Anything less than 55 from the longs is a hot round.

You should come play the course during the Buckhorn Meltdown. The weather is guaranteed to be sh*t.

It can happen where a hole gets an excellent rating for one skill level of players but not so good for others. That's the nature of our sport when we use public facilities for most of our league and tournament courses. We do the best we can to meet the guidelines where we can without cheapening the course where it's possible to excel. Hope to play Buckthorn on a visit sometime.

Buckhorn as a whole, and #17 in particular, is a prime example of this. It provides an outstanding test of an accomplished player's ability, judgment, and execution. It is decidedly not, however (nor, IMO, should it necessarily be), a beginner-friendly course.

My point in bringing #17 into the conversation is that it is an example of a hole on which there is a reasonably good probability that throwing one's first throw from the drop zone stroke and accepting the two-stroke penalty rather than from the teepad will end up saving those who choose that option one or more strokes vs. only using the drop zone if one's disc comes to rest OB, yet fail to accomplish its intended purposes, viz. to make it possible for novice/rec players to play the hole without risking losing discs and/or to allow all players to play the same course as everyone else for ratings purposes. (I would note that in three years of spotting on #17 during the Buckhorn Meltdown, the overwhelming majority of Adv and open players who ended up throwing from the drop zone did so because their second throw ended up in the pond.)

Great point...this course is a great test for well-seasoned, tournament-tested players. I see the rule for going straight to a drop zone being more applicable to a hole like the old #9 blue at Buckhorn (especially when the water level was high), where the only shot available off the tee was a big hyzer over water. On #17, every player has a clear path available to get to the drop zone, even if it takes 2 or 3 shots.