I don't mind free speech, in public or on the internet. It doesn't personally offend me that the PDGA's Executive Director, Brian Hoeniger, posted things here on the DISCussion Board that many Americans would find offensive. However, Brian did this under the screen name "PDGAOffice" which we all know implies that it is approved by the PDGA. The statements Brian made have been removed from DISCussion, which I agree is the right move, but I still feel that Brian and the PDGA owe us an apology for the unprofessional conduct displayed by a person who is a paid PDGA staff member.

Why do I feel an apology is in order? Because the PDGA has tried to display itself as a professionally-run organization in order to obtain larger corporate sponsorships, even going so far as to require collared shirts for amateurs at the Worlds, banning alcohol from tournaments, suspending players for angry words, and banning TD's for posting on DISCussion the same type of offensive statements that Brian made. What Brian posted and how he posted is not professional, and reflects very poorly on the PDGA; so if the PDGA is serious about cleaning up the sport's image so that we may attract more sponsors, it is time for the PDGA to tell us, the membership, that unprofessional conduct will not be tolerated from Brian Hoeniger or anyone representing the PDGA.

To continue to hold the membership to one standard and the PDGA staff and Board members to another can not be tolerated if the PDGA is to grow and prosper. I urge Brian to apologize immediately and I urge the PDGA BOD to either give back permission to run a PDGA event to the TD it revoked this privilege from after he posted on DISCussion comments the PDGA found offensive, or to take an equal action against Brian.

Of course I'd just like the PDGA to re-instate the TD, which would be a lot easier than taking action against every offensive poster on DISCussion. I urge the PDGA to forgive and forget, and to strive in the future to be the professional organization we as members deserve.

Michael Kernan #14304
TD, Mardi Gras Madness B-tier
TD, Louisiana State Championships B-tier

good luck with this one!!! I don't care about the apology from Brian Hoeniger,,,it's meaningless coming from someone with what appears to be of very little character. I agree about the apology from the pdga. I think that the pdga is hoping that this topic will get swept under the rug and forgotten about.

good luck. I think we'll get a sincere apology the day AFTER hell freezes over.

And Nick, please don't post on this thread. I know you want to. It dosen't help solve the problem, so please show your willpower and let stupid comments not have replys to them.

...
And Nick, please don't post on this thread. I know you want to. It dosen't help solve the problem...

As if this thread had anything to do with problem solving!

It may not solve any problems, but it is the right thing to do, that is, for BDH to apologize and admit that his comments are more properly posted under his own name and not the PDGA office.

I have learned over time that showing a little deference to someone, even if you think you are right and they are wrong, goes a long way in the interest of diplomacy. As administrator of the PDGA, I think it is inherent that Brian be diplomatic in this case. Without such an apology he is basically telling us all to sod off.

good luck with this one!!! I don't care about the apology from Brian Hoeniger,,,it's meaningless coming from someone with what appears to be of very little character. I agree about the apology from the pdga. I think that the pdga is hoping that this topic will get swept under the rug and forgotten about.



Ooooo! Tough talk from a nameless coward. Yeah! You're a regular John Wayne, you are... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

At least Mike is openly an idiot... :D

At least Nick openly has no life except to sit in front of a computer screen and ridicule fellow disc golfers.

did i miss something ?
what was said ?

Tis the season to be Jollly

Fa-la-la-la la-la-la-la

Get off the Canucks back, Golllly

Fa-la-la-la la-la-la-la

Brian ridiculed the USA using the PDGA Office moniker instead of his own name. And because there are no facial expressions available in typed messages (the gremlins are too cute to be taken seriously) one cannot tell if one is joking or serious. Most seem to have taken it seriously and are asking for an apology.

That's my take on it at least.

evreyone baggs on the US OF A so whats the big deal ?

Whew! Six posts in one week? I'm spending way too much time here. See ya!!!

Comments taken out of context? Say it isnt so?!?!

I remember someone being dropped from someone's sponsership over the same type of 'out of context' issue.

Hmmmm......

At least Nick openly has no life except to sit in front of a computer screen and ridicule fellow disc golfers.



How do you know "Annie" is even a disc golfer?

If you're going to flame at least don't be a Poo C and hide.

I didn't know there were two idio...I mean Mikes on this bored mess.

underparmikey wants an apology? Bwahahaha...for what? You got your panties in a knot over that? Most Americans don't mind dishing it, but say something negative about the good ole u.s. of a and they get defensive. Let it go...when /if you see him on the course, then ask him to his face.

Perhaps a good New Year's resolution would be to offer apology when seeking one.

I'd like to thank the people who all volunteer, or are otherwise greatly under-compensated for, the time they put in, and apologize that fellow enthusiasts (myself included) of the sport can at times make it somewhat thankless to be one of the givers.

Don't have time to fully respond, but in short.

1. I agree that Guru should have a guru avatar for the board. But if he chooses not to, or forgets to, it's no big deal for me. I think it's usually obvious from context as to which posts are official and which posts are just Guru, who I think is certainly allowed to have his own life and views.

2. Can't address fairness or double standard issues due to no data, but I generally am biased in favor of people that have given decades of service to the sport.

3. As far as US bashing, I think that when a few billion people say that the US is on the arrogant/[*****] side of things, even though their heart is in the right place, maybe the US should take a look in the mirror a little, just on the off chance that they have a point.

1. I hereby apologize for a political posting under user name PDGA Office.

2. Have now set up a personal opinion account.

3. See Kurt Bayne's #3 above.

4. Mikey, do something useful instead of all this rubbish posting, like donate to the tsunami relief.

5. My opinions re US foreign policy remain as per previous and as per the majority of the world.

Have a nice day.

Anti US remarks? We should bomb NewFoundland to send a message! :Dj/k

CANADA RULES! Except when it -23 C

At least Nick openly has no life except to sit in front of a computer screen and ridicule fellow disc golfers.



How do you know "Annie" is even a disc golfer?

If you're going to flame at least don't be a Poo C and hide.

I didn't know there were two idio...I mean Mikes on this bored mess.



Nick, please read the rules of the board. Inflammatory comments have no use here. If anyone should be aware of that, I'd think it would be one of the alleged 'monitors'.

good assessment.

The MSDGC "spat" and the "outcry" over his musings about America are two different things, even though they both seem to involve thin skins. You know, "he dissed the US" and "he dissed the PDGA." Can everyone just get over it. It's almost a new year, let's move ahead.

If I wasn't clear before, the PDGA should re-instate Jason Southwick as a member in good standing with all the rights and privileges of active membership. He was banned from running PDGA tournaments recently for what the PDGA deemed offensive language on the DISCussion board. That the PDGA bans one member for offensive language yet condones the offensive language of another is a double standard and double standards are unprofessional.

I could care less about Mr. Hoeniger's opinion of the USA, as I actually agree with a lot of what he said. I also agreed with a lot of what Southwick said that earned him his unjust punishment from the PDGA.

If the PDGA continues to apply its rules in an arbitrary manner, disc golf will always be viewed as a joke. It is important for the membership to be allowed to speak and be heard; if the PDGA demands the membership address them in a civil tone, the membership should demand the same of the PDGA leadership.

If the PDGA continues to apply its rules in an arbitrary manner, disc golf will always be viewed as a joke. .


I don't agree. I don't associate disc golf and the pdga anymore...haven't for many years. Disc golf was here before the pdga and will be here long after.

From what I saw, it looked to be more the message than the language that was found offensive, but as with all disciplinary acts taken by the PDGA, you have to get the inside story from the disciplined party or someone close to them. The PDGA doesn't give out details.

Yawn.

From the Rules link of the Message Board:

Remember: you are in a public forum, talking to your fellow disc golfers. Behave accordingly. Disagreements are fine; personal attacks are not.

From Nick(a Board Monitor) posting on pg. 1 of this thread:


Ooooo! Tough talk from a nameless coward. Yeah! You're a regular John Wayne, you are... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

At least Mike is openly an idiot... :D



This is what this discussion is all about. Comments made by two different people whose comments did not belong on the board that were treated very differently.

"Gooberhead" seems pretty light compared to "idiot". Does putting a grin or smirk after a personal attack make it any different. If so that's a good way to get around the rules that you are supposed to help enforce. Since these people are saying some things about your friend that you may not like, they may be taken literally even though there may be a smiley face after them.

:D :eek: :D

apparently, putting a smiley face after personal attacks makes them ok. At least, that's what Keith told me. :rolleyes:

From what I saw, it looked to be more the message than the language that was found offensive.




If everyone started to take what is said on here literally there would be a ton of problems. The message was that he dosen't like Guru. He choose to say that he dosen't like Guru in a stupid way, which I think he may have apologized for recently. Action was taken that caused him to see the error of his ways, and he made ammends. What many people who support Jason disagree with is the BOD not reinstating Jason's officials card and not accepting him as a member in good standing. I think this whole thing hurts the PDGA more than Jason, and I wish they could make ammends. Why let something as stupid as name calling get in the way of much more important things.



but as with all disciplinary acts taken by the PDGA, you have to get the inside story from the disciplined party or someone close to them. The PDGA doesn't give out details.



True.

Why don't we just get over it! There are some posters that cannot seem to carry on a conversation without insults or other types of negative verbage. We know who they are!! It's expected of them. What we CAN do is not bring ourselves down to their level. So, let it lie!

What IS wrong is someone using the office of the PDGA to voice their personal attacks. These folks have issues with life they obviously cannot control. This shows us what type of people we have running the SHOW. Until the BOD address this issue, it will not stop. So until then, let's grow a little more skin and consider the source of such drivel.

I sincerely hope the BOD will take action to clean up DISCussion. Mr. Calhoun even started a thread about it, and I hope he is serious about no longer tolerating a lot of the offensive nonsense that is posted here. I myself have been known to offend, and promise to tone down the language of my own posts provided the PDGA reinstates Jason Southwick who has been singled out by the BOD while hundreds of other posters are allowed to post offensive comments including the PDGA's own monitor of DISCussion, Nick Kight.

That the BOD continues to ignore my repeated requests to discuss this issue in private or here demonstrates to me that the BOD is not concerned at all by offensive behavior of anyone except those who offend the Executive Director, Brian Hoeniger, who I think made an attempt at an apology earlier in this thread, but I can't be certain as I have no way to track anonymous posters.

Brian, if that was you, remember that I have volunteered several times now to help you and have been rebuffed every time. Since I continue to volunteer to help the PDGA while its ED and BOD complain that they are overworked, I can't conclude anything other than the current PDGA administration seeks to remain in power at all costs rather than accepting new people into its clique. That the Financial Director refuses to disclose the details of how the PDGA membership's dues are spent is even more alarming, and it is difficult for me to think that perhaps this is all about money and lining certain people's pockets.

I beg the PDGA to prove me wrong. Reinstate Jason Southwick, accept my offer of help, and open up the books so the members can see who is getting all our dues.

Mikey Kernan #14304

****......why don't we just drop this crap.

The BOD knows what Jason did. The BOD also agrees with the sanctions put on Jason.

Hey Mikey, I tried to PM you but it says you are not accepting them. (?)

Let me know if you ever hear anything about this. I won't hold my breath, tho. Hopefully I'll run into you at the MSDGC this year.

Dan

Mikey must get great enjoyment from how everyone always jumps so high whenever he says "jump".

I still haven't figured out why Mr. Kernan hasn't been voted onto the board yet... aren't board members voted in by popular vote of the PDGA members?

... and Mr. Kernan, you may need to realize there have been more incidents between our beloved Mr. Southwick and the beloved PDGA than the one that is currently curdling on the top.

... As a paid member of the PDGA (for the next 12 hrs until I renew), I don't know if I'm comfortable for you viewing/handling the PDGA finances. What are your credentials/background? How do we know that those are secure in your hands?

Happy New Year to all... although, it's unlikely that all of you will have a happy one as some of you will be affected by some cheater or whinner or over-zealous lunatic or crazed fanatic... at least try to keep your head up and realize that some things really don't matter...

Dont know anything about this but what I do know is that ITS 55 DEGREES IN MICHIGAN ITS DEC 31st AND IM GOING TO GO PLAY GOLF.

Nameless coward??? Are you illiterate? Go to my profile and you can read more if you aren't to busy bashing ex military,,,,ya I said it,,,,. :p :p :p

Well, you see Natty, unless you link your PDGA number (if you have one and you should get one if you don't) We, being the other posters here, don't know you from Adam or Eve.

I completely agree,,,but untill the pdga releases info on how the membership fees are spent,,,,,I find it impossible to do so at this time. Seems to be a lot of ranker and discontent with the pdga and a select few of the monitors. I thank Brian Hoeniger for his apology.

That is not that hard to find out. (where the PDGA spends its money that is)

Don't believe Mike from LA when he says he can't get it. I have seen where the person in charge of the books has stated that Mike has not asked him for the information and that he invited him to do so.

On top of that, graphs are published in DGWN that shows where the PDGA got and spent its money every year. (at least I remember reading it before)

Mike is just mad that the PDGA made a big mistake a few years ago hiring a PR firm that did not do nearly enough to justify the expence. The PDGA has fired that firm sense then.

What are the opionins of the majority of the world and yourself guru???Details???

MTL stays out of threads like this.

www.discgolfforum.com (http://www.discgolfforum.com) doesn't have threads like this.

All disc golf - no politics

You can not be serious? Go anywhere in the world and ask people what they think of Americans. Rude, arrogant, ignorant of anything other than themselves and the world and basically twits. I have several other English words that can be used but that will do.

I am not slamming Americans here simply stating a feeling of people that are not American. You fellows think us Brits are weird and we think the above about you. No harm done but lets not get all wrapped up in patriotism. We all love our own country as we should. I love Great Britain and you love the US of A. Cool :p

I have to agree that most Americans do not have a clue how life could be in a country where your rights rode on the whims of the current ruling power. It is also true that most other countries see us as arrogant and rude. It's not like we are trying to be, we are just trying to help. Just like a certain french noble woman when she suggested that the peasants eat cake. She didn't know any better and thought it an excellent suggestion. And yes I am Ex military, and have spent time overseas and seen how other cultures get by.

So I was not offended by Guru's remarks, but did feel that he should be posting opinions with a personal ID.

apparently, putting a smiley face after personal attacks makes them ok. At least, that's what Keith told me. :rolleyes:



i don't recall personally attacking anyone(smiley or no smiley in at least 15 months or so(since 804.05(A) commenting)....

you need to stay more current with the board jim
(now would that be considered a personal attack???)

if so then i have attacked LOTS of people....(would have used a smiley here but now i'm confused if i should ever again since it obviously doesn't have the effect i'm looking for to some people)

Mr. Haas, i believe i am aware of the other incidents involving Southwick. please remember that i believe he has been singled out for opinions others have found offensive; yet hundreds of other offensive posts are tolerated on DISCussion. I don't like double standards and I really don't like that Southwick has been banned from running tournaments for speaking his mind.

The MSDGC, Southwick's tournament, will likely have a purse in excess of $15,000 and will be the biggest event ever held in New England. It is held on two private courses that are on land owned by the Southwick family. Southwick is the president of NEFA, a regional frisbee association. Add all that up---look at the ACTIONS of Southwick, the huge positive things that he has done for the sport, and weigh that against a few inappropriate WORDS, and you tell me: why does the PDGA BOD feel Southwick can not be trusted, that by letting Southwick be a TD on the National Tour it is too big a risk to take? Actions to me speak louder than words, and the current BOD should be completely embarrassed that they have done the sport a great disservice by banning Southwick from running tournaments. So what if anyone criticizes the PDGA? Anyone who has ever accomplished anything great faces criticism---the PDGA is wasting time being vindictive against Southwick in a lame attempt to "protect the reputation" of its Exectutive Director and by doing so is acting very irrationally and unprofessionally, and retaliatory to the point of being juvenile.

I have not asked to handle the PDGA finances, only to view them. An e-mail request to do this was sent last week to the PDGA Financial Director after repeated requests to the Executive Director over the course of the year have failed to give me any pertinent information. I have yet to get any response from the Financial Director. As a dues-paying member I feel entitled to know how my dues are spent; that the PDGA apparently does not want me to know where all the money goes makes me lose faith in the PDGA's ability to act for the benefit of the entire membership versus to the benefit of a select few with connections to the current leadership. To answer another comment, yes I was upset about $70,000 of our dues being squandered to a sports marketing firm that delivered absolutely nothing in return.

Mr. Howard, i do not accept PMs but feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] and let me know what you think.

I have to agree that most Americans do not have a clue how life could be in a country where your rights rode on the whims of the current ruling power.



Hopefully these words will not be ironic in the near future.

I have to agree that most Americans do not have a clue how life could be in a country where your rights rode on the whims of the current ruling power.



Hopefully these words will not be ironic in the near future.

Aren't we already there? :confused:

What???!!! We just went through that!! :p :p :p :p

I have to agree that most Americans do not have a clue how life could be in a country where your rights rode on the whims of the current ruling power.



Hopefully these words will not be ironic in the near future.

Aren't we already there? :confused:



Haven't we already been there for decades?

Perhaps, but George W is taking it to the next level :mad:

Yeah, I especially liked the Kerik guy who was almost head of Homeland Security. The White House says the only thing they didn't know about him was the illegal immigrant nanny and that was definitely a reason to drop his appointment. Apparently being married with two kids, and maintaining an expensive apartment for his mistress, and cheating on his mistress with another woman in that apartment - all while being guarded by City of New York employees was okay with Dubya. So much for moral values.

What do you think, Mikey, was Kerik using New York City employees for personal gain?

Well, cheating on your wife was a personal matter under the previous administration, as was lying about it to a Federal grand jury, so the confusion on this issue is understandable.

i wish these BOD members would quit changing the subject and have the courage to admit their error when they acted to the detriment of disc golfers everywhere by banning Southwick from running PDGA events! your constant refusal to see that you are running the PDGA into the ground is dispicable. by refusing to work with a visionary like Southwick you are stunting the growth of professional events like the NT and MSDGC.

it is surprising that my fellow touring pros that post here on DISCussion apparently can't see that the BOD's refusal to reinstate a great promoter like Southwick will cost them a lot of money in the long run. come on Heeren, take a stand. come on McCoy, don't you think the BOD has went overboard now in its attempt to "clean up" the NT? it's one thing to suspend a player, but to ban an organizer for a few offensive comments just like the Executive Director makes on a regular basis? touring pros stand to lose sponsorship money if you win the MSDGC and it's not on the NT. you should be outraged that the BOD is potentially taking even more money out of your pockets. The PDGA is too small at this point in time to ban TD's like Southwick, who is hosting the MSDGC on his own private land and at a great expense to him personally. If the BOD keeps banishing people like Southwick who give so much to the sport, who will take their places? Who is going to donate their cash, time, and land to run top-notch events if they can't blow off a little steam on the DISCussion board when they get stressed out by the PDGA's numerous nit-pick rules and regulations? DO SOMETHING TO HELP THE SPORT PEOPLE! THE BOD WILL KEEP MAKING IT MORE DIFFICULT TO RUN TOURNAMENTS IF YOU DO NOT SPEAK AGAINST THEIR TOTAL LACK OF RESPECT FOR PROMOTERS OF THE SPORT LIKE JASON SOUTHWICK!

I guess Brakel & Terry really admire the fact that Kerik was able to abuse his position of authority just as they do as members of the BOD.

subject line says it all

yeah rhett, that's good advice coming from someone with over 6,000 posts of dribble. you and nick have a lot more in common than you realize. :p

BURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D:D:p :p :p :p

I guess Brakel & Terry really admire the fact that Kerik was able to abuse his position of authority just as they do as members of the BOD.

[/QUOTE]

Mikey, Mikey, Mikey . . . how nice of you to "qualify" that scandalous and erroneous statement of "fact" with the "I guess" lead-in. I recommend waiting a while between posts, I think you're getting burned out. :D

You're amazing Mikey, raising Hell with two organizations on two mess boards at the same time. Bravo! :DrWc

thanks for the props terry!

well, it looks like Jason has posted over on the MSDGC thread that he's just all happy as a clam about how he's been bent over by the PDGA leadership as they stuffed his official's card in his backside. :o

seems terry gave jason a call and now jason's happy he got the same treatment marcellus got from that redneck gun-shop owner in "pulp fiction". got to hand it to you terry, you are a master of persuasion.

can't wait for the backlash on this one. can we do my suspension hearing here on DISCussion and let all my detractors come testify like the last episode of Seinfeld? who's first?

Good job Mikey, I agree with you. Seems the PDGA is definetly not acting in the best interest of disc golf. They cant even get a few rule changes implemented on time. With all the BS Ive been seeing lately, Ive decided not to renew my membership. Glad someone like you has the guts to say something. Wonder how long till you get banned and they remove your posts?

New puppet Jason! I'd be outraged but that's hilarious. No one's ever called me a puppet before. It's always been much worse. I'll have to practice my bouncy puppet walk with my arms up like they're attached to strings.

I HAVE been looking for a new title, since entertainment director sounds so pedestrian. New puppet Jason. New puppet Jason. Wow. Terry can you lead me over to the coffee machine. Though my assimilation into the collective required a lobotomy, it seems the good doctors left a few cobwebs behind in my brain.

> They cant even get a few rule changes implemented on time.

Jon, let me address this for you from my personal perspective of what we did with the rules this year.

We intend to take a good, long, overarching look at the rules in 2005. That is planned. There are some inconsistencies, lots of needed clarification, some other needed changes, and quite a few things "in the rules" that really ought to be somewhere else and aren't really rules.

At the October board meeting in Augusta, we learned that our stock of rules books was diminished and that we would need a new print run. We discussed whether that was prudent, given our plan to make major rules changes in 2005, and decided that it was.

Then we discussed whether or not we had time yet before when the rules book would have to go to the printer (mid-December) to make any significant changes to the rules before printing more copies.

I was against that due to time constraints. Since I had personally been the person who had reformatted and laid out and managed the printing of the last rules book print runs (with help from Sunny Beach and others), I was wary and recommended against making any changes and going ahead with a print run of books as they were, especially since we had not previously done much discussion of changes to be made.

Others argued, appropriately, that we could go over a list of possible changes and do "straw votes" on which ones would be easily accepted by us all versus which ones would require more discussion, argumentation, and compromise. So, I compromised and agreed, and that's what we did.

Jon Lyksett made up such a list, which was a wonderful, quick piece of work on his part, and we went through it face to face!

At that point, the list (and it was not just "a few" changes by my estimation) was to go to the Rules Committee with the request that they provide new rules language for the "easy" fixes we knew we could all agree on - and fast - so that we could hold an electronic vote and get the easy changes done in time to meet the mid-December deadline for publishing new books in time for providing them with renewal materials.

Well, at that point I lost track of who did what or who communicated what and I am sure there were some less than adequate communications on the part of several people, including me. As it turned out, when we (the board) ended up having to vote *now* on the rules changes, there were things in there that were not easily agreed-upon and outside the scope of the agreement we had made in Augusta. So we ended up deciding that we had to put nearly everything off until the planned major revisions later this year. (There really wasn't time to get new language, agree on it, layout, edit, format, and print. I am sure that you would prefer when I vote as a board member on rules changes that I understand them and really do agree with them.)

It was basically a valiant effort to do too much in too short of a time when we had other things to handle (like various disciplinary things that took hours to work out). I am sure that some of us on the board were very disappointed and so were some Disciplinary Committee members. But no one did anything wrong or had mal-intent. And a great deal of work toward the major inevitable revisions was accomplished, which will make those easier to get done in 2005.

jason, i'm glad you still have a sense of humor. loved your platform over at NEFA by the way!

i do NOT want to encourage people to not renew their memberships, disctracted. mine's been renewed and i am actually running 2 PDGA B-tier events in 2005. well, at least that's the plan, i haven't been notified of my suspension yet. hopefully i can serve it in between the dates of my tournaments so that the players at my tournaments don't have to suffer because brian can't take a joke.

DO RENEW. keep voicing your opinions though. while it appears the PDGA doesn't listen, they do. they just like to take credit for ideas that we come up with---it makes them feel useful. look, if Terry can brainwash Jason with a phone call, he should be able to brainwash the PDGA leaders into coming up with a plan of what to accomplish in 2005 and beyond, and make them stick to it!

I know I'm afraid to answer my phone now for fear I my brain will be erased if the puppet master is on the other end

Here's what i do mikey, get a spagetti strainer (metal only) and duct-tape it to your head. that will siphon out all those subliminal messages the pdga office, and everyone else is trying to brainwash you with. dont answer the phone unless that strainer is firmly attached to your head, oh, and when you pick up the phone dont forget to wear oven mitts so those brainwash cooties dont get you through direct contact!!!
ski gloves will work if you dont have oven mitts. :D
it also might be a good idea to have someone else go through your mail too, like a neighbor you dont like.....they can get you that way too.....well good luck, (theyre watching us you know) keep the faith, dont become a conformist! vote ralph nader for pdga executive director next election. :eek:

:cool:One more tip too Mikey,,,,,stay away from the floridated water!!! :D:D:D

thanks y'all. is it funny or sad that i voted for Nader in 2000? or just typical? I have never voted for a bush, i only throw my discs in them. and lick them. :p :p :p

subject line says it all



You are one of the few I still read on this thread. Hope you can read this...

Good job Mikey, I agree with you. Seems the PDGA is definetly not acting in the best interest of disc golf. They cant even get a few rule changes implemented on time. With all the BS Ive been seeing lately, Ive decided not to renew my membership. Glad someone like you has the guts to say something. Wonder how long till you get banned and they remove your posts?



We'll really miss your support. Please close the door on your way out. Take Mikey with you and I'll refund your membership from last year in the amount you contributed to implimenting the rules changes.

Thats interesting.

wow!!!

wow!!!



Wow, what? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

subject says it all. :confused:

In case no one misses the few subthread posts that were just deleted, that was my doing. The lead message contained inappropriate criticism about a PDGA staff person. I tried to ask the poster to remove it himself, but his account does not accept private messages and I did not want to leave the inappropriate posting up any longer.

If anyone has a criticism to share about any PDGA staff person, that criticism should go to the executive director, assuming that they can't settle the issue between themselves and the staff person.

If the issue is about the executive director, then it should be addressed to the executive director and if it cannot be resolved there, then it should be addressed to the commissioner.

Staff cannot respond in appropriate ways to such criticism in a public forum like this. It is, for them, a lose-lose proposition and creates, in my opinion, what amounts to a hostile working environment.

I am happy to discuss this with anyone. My account does accept personal messages, or you can email me at [email protected] or call me at 734.883.4407.

Its attitudes like this that also influenced my decision not to renew. Whats one more member give or take, right Nick?

Its attitudes like this that also influenced my decision not to renew. Whats one more member give or take, right Nick?


Who the hell do you guys think Nick is????? He's just some east coast loudmouth that tries to get his way. If you aren't man enough to stand up for what you want and help shape the PDGA to better suit your needs, then good riddance.

But please don't come back to this PDGA resource and ***** about how bad the PDGA is when you won't support it.

Oops. I came to Terry's defense in a cabin fever induced mode and then realized the post was directed against Nick and not Terry. So now I'm auto-deleting my post.

In case no one misses the few subthread posts that were just deleted, that was my doing. The lead message contained inappropriate criticism about a PDGA staff person...

If anyone has a criticism to share about any PDGA staff person, that criticism should go to the executive director, assuming that they can't settle the issue between themselves and the staff person.


Just to be clear, it was inappropriate criticism, not just any criticism, that you removed, right? Just as you would remove any other kind of inappropriate posts.

I think the rest of your message might have been misinterpreted by the last poster, because you wrote as if all criticisms, even appropriately worded ones, should not be posted on this forum.

I'm sure I'm misreading that, because in some cases I think the criticisms are being tried out here, and if they don't fly with the rest of us, then I think they are dealt with before they even rise to the level of sending them to the PDGA offices.

Conversely, if there is validity to the criticism, then a forum could provide support for that criticism, so that it gets more hearing than it otherwise would if it were sent privately by a single person.

I mean, we just held PDGA elections, right? Are we not allowed to debate what we like and don't like about the candidates, and then later to debate what we like or don't like about the performance of the officers until the next elections (inspiring perhaps others to run if they want to "fix things")?

I read the post before Terry deleted it. It was a mean spirited attack against one of our staff members by someone that I could not identify as a member. Everyone would do well to read the message board rules which state in part

Remember: you are in a public forum, talking to your fellow disc golfers. Behave accordingly. Disagreements are fine; personal attacks are not.
This PDGA-sponsored board does not guarantee freedom of speech. Messages containing profanity, inflammatory comments, or other offensive content may be removed at the discretion of the board monitors. Individuals who persist in this behavior may be barred from future posting.

Terry, as a member of the board, was acting like a good employer should, protecting an employee from an unwarranted attack from a non-member.

Remember, we are in Terry's experimental close monitoring period. See the official announcements thread.

Terry is the communication director and this is his bailiwick. I feel comfortable with what he just did.

Paul, I like the demeanor of your argument.

I try to very clearly say what I mean to say but perhaps it didn't work this time.

This was not for "criticism" it was for "inappropriate criticism"; and it was not criticism of an elected board member. It was criticism of a staff person. Staff, by nature of their jobs, are simply unable to defend themselves from public criticism. Such criticism creates a hostile work environment.

I was unaware that what I wrote could be interpreted as forbidding criticism of all kinds about the PDGA, and especially about elected and appointed leaders. That's not what I meant, so I think we agree on that.

Soylent Green is people!

We are in complete agreement!

This was not for "criticism" it was for "inappropriate criticism"; and it was not criticism of an elected board member. It was criticism of a staff person. Staff, by nature of their jobs, are simply unable to defend themselves from public criticism. Such criticism creates a hostile work environment.


Then I say, with regard to the removal of the offensive post, well done!

Soylent Green is people!



Ah, man, you ruined the ending.

[*****]hole.

offensive......who's offensive????gateway blows what????

Personal attacks, like Nick saying dont be a baby? Funny how moderators can do it, isn`t? And for Rhett, I did stand up for what I beIieve in and tried to help shape the PDGA when I paid my money to join the PDGA. But the PDGA couldn`t get together in a timely manner to resolve the rules and spent its time going after Southwick for a few personal remarks like its moderators get away with. Sounds like they were to busy with disciplinary action of a few and ignored the needs of the many. If they have enough money to build a HQ, then they should be able to afford reprinting rules or a supplemental form. Instead of just waiting another year to do the job. Its the take it or leave it attitude that Nick, Rhett,and the PDGA has demonstrated lately that has really upset me. If you all think you can do everything by yourselves without people who disagree, then go ahead. But I don`t see how this is helping disc golf in any way. Since I didn`t receive my election ballot due to my recent residence change, I`ve decided to vote the best way I can. With my money. And as far as using this resource for saying what I feel, I will continue to do so whether you agree with what I say or not. It`s a public forum.

Personal attacks, like Nick saying dont be a baby? Funny how moderators can do it, isn`t? And for Rhett, I did stand up for what I beIieve in and tried to help shape the PDGA when I paid my money to join the PDGA. But the PDGA couldn`t get together in a timely manner to resolve the rules and spent its time going after Southwick for a few personal remarks like its moderators get away with. Sounds like they were to busy with disciplinary action of a few and ignored the needs of the many. If they have enough money to build a HQ, then they should be able to afford reprinting rules or a supplemental form. Instead of just waiting another year to do the job. Its the take it or leave it attitude that Nick, Rhett,and the PDGA has demonstrated lately that has really upset me. If you all think you can do everything by yourselves without people who disagree, then go ahead. But I don`t see how this is helping disc golf in any way. Since I didn`t receive my election ballot due to my recent residence change, I`ve decided to vote the best way I can. With my money. And as far as using this resource for saying what I feel, I will continue to do so whether you agree with what I say or not. It`s a public forum.



Awe, I'm all choked up...

And the PDGA is not just me, who is unafraid to tell you my thoughts unfiltered. It is all of the TDs running PDGA events, all of the volunteers helping out at those events and all of the members, even you. So stop bandying the name around like you are not a part of it. If you don't want to be a part of it, like I said, the door is right over there...

when I paid my money to join the PDGA



Note the operative word is 'join' not 'subscribe.' The PDGA is a members organization where you join with others to support and advance the sport, not a commercial service you pay money to subscribe to and expect to always be treated like a customer. Economic realities require the PDGA admin to cater to members like a commercial entity, but it's fundamentally a member driven group and members have a right (yes, right) to expect contributions from other members. However, I suspect most don't see it that way and feel if they pay their money, they've done enough, kind of like buying several burgers at McDonalds.

So, when a few PDGA members who are actually contributors sometimes don't agree and cater to you like a customer, it's really not their job. They're already 'carrying the water' for hundreds of other members who do the minimum by paying their renewal and are satisfied that's enough. Who wants a troublemaker that just pays their dues? Now, a troublemaker who actually contributes is welcome and there are many of us. If that's your plan, then I encourage you to look past that chilly reception from some and renew. Not everyone gets along well with everyone else in a family, but they're still family.

I think your criticism regarding rulebook reprints is valid. However, realize that the PDGA is not paying much toward the construction of the new HQ in Augusta. The PDGA couldn't afford it. Those who buy products and services in Columbia County are paying for our facility along with funds raised from the sale of the Steady Ed discs containing his ashes and from baskets contributed by manufacturers and eventually funds raised from sponsorships for tee pads and signs and from labor contributed by members for course design and installation. That's the sign of a true member organization making partnerships for progress, not a commercial entity.

> Now, a troublemaker who actually contributes is welcome
> and there are many of us.

Hear, hear! :D

ok, so what's the deal with the Grunion/Polish Power crap? I saw Grunion posted some info from another board that basically resorted to a threat, and that message was deleted, but were they both banned or what? I do not care what it was all about but I felt that very childish to do as an anonymous poster and think if you are too afraid to post your REAL NAME, you shouldn't get a voice on this message board. I do not care if you are a PDGA member or not, but posting attacks from a completely anonymous account should not be tolerated. All accounts should link to a real email address or PDGA #. If you can't be contacted my moderators and you post nasty stuff, you shouldn't belong here.

Matt, Polish and Grunion had both been making inappropriate posts, but Grunion's got defamatory and threatening. Not knowing who Grunion was I could not contact him. Someone gave us his name and we could not find him anywhere in the PDGA databases - basically had no info on him at all. By the time I was aware of the feud, Polish had apologized on his own, on the thread and Grunion was posting those defamatory things all over. So Polish was warned and will likely be not posting often right away, being careful, and Grunion is banned.

I agree with you on anonymous postings but that is not policy yet, and might not be. But if you're totally anonymous, then the monitors can't talk with you and you are far more likely to get a post deleted or banned. And I plan to be very liberal on banning folks who repeatedly post bad things anonymously during this pilot phase of moderation of DISCussion.

Minicrusher:

(a) Please don't think for a moment that you have threatened my ego, or that if you had it would affect my monitoring of the DISCussion board;

(b) I am running a 2-month serious monitoring of the board to see if that can make a positive difference in the tone and demeanor of the discussions;

(c) The next issue of DGWN contains a survey in it asking members about DISCussion and what moderation or changes they want in it;

(d) When we delete a post, an unfortunate but inevitable consequence is that every reply in the thread following that post gets deleted, to. That's no doubt how most if not all of your posts got deleted. (I did edit one, as you know.); and

(e) Any time there is a post you or anyone else thinks is derogatory or inflammatory, please let me know - but be precise in telling me where it is. There's a lot of action on this board and no one person can be in all corners of it.

I can be PM'd, emailed - [email protected],edu, or called - 734.883.4407.

P.S. Grunion, if we can hold our peace until tomorrow, I'd prefer to talk to you then. I am under some writing deadlines today and am also supervising two carpenters and an electrician working on my kitchen, so even my power is off and on today. If there's a different day number for you, please email it to me.

who made you the judge of what should be deleted and shouldn't?


Whoever made him a moderator. It's his job to decide what stays and what goes.

``The PDGA is a members organization where you join with others to support and advance the sport`` This is something I feel the PDGA and some of its members are not doing recently with the Southwick thing, the rules, and discriminate way of dealing with people on this board. Seems they are only looking after the interest of a few people. As far as contributing Ive gone and gotten sponsors for a PDGA event, and been to work parties to clean the course before the PDGA event. Ive also went and got sponsors to run my own tournaments, albeit not on the PDGA scale. I also donate products from my company for tournaments. I agree people should do more than just sign up, but when it is I ``who is unafraid to tell you my thoughts unfiltered`` Its a continual attitude of ``the doors right over there`` and ``troublemaker`` that really irks me. How does this attitude support disc golf? ``That's the sign of a true member organization making partnerships for progress`` is what I`d like to to see. Until then it`s like I said, if you think you can do it yourselves and want to have that attitude, then do it without my support and my money. If I saw things change for the better, then I wouldnt mind rejoining and helping to support the growth of the game I love. But for now Ill have to give my money and support only to the JPDGA. Which Ive already joined and donated to their tournaments. Since I now live in Japan, I wouldnt receive any other benefits of renewing with the PDGA except knowing Im supporting disc golf to grow. But I dont see any reason for that with the things are now.

"Troublemaker" should probably have had quotes. "Mover and shaker" would be the more positive term. Perhaps surprising to newer members, I've been a �PITA� on some issues with the PDGA hierarchy several times over the past 15 years but they still put up with me. I'm glad to hear of your contributions. I'm just saying sometimes you have to wade right in there because not everyone in any member group will agree with you or like you off the bat.

BTW, we�re just processing results from about 15 events in Japan for player ratings. So I�m guessing our �partnership� with the JPDGA might result in benefits for you even if you don�t renew with the PDGA (but I�m not really sure what their arrangements are). Since I'm throwing mostly 150 class now, I'm looking forward to visit Japan some time.

Thanks for the reply Chuck. Ill have to say I believe your attitude is much more positive than others on here. Its the hypocracy, negative attitudes, and strive for individual goals over the growth of the sport that has soured me from supporting by renewing. Hopefully things will change in a positive way and I can feel happy about supporting the PDGA. Throwing the 150 class is a much different game huh? Would love to play a round with you if you ever get over this way.

I can't give up my 175 Classic Roc putters though until I come visit.

Yeah the putters are the trickiest part of the change. Just played a super windy tournament where I had my 10` putt catch the wind and go 40` away. Then I thought Id be smart and throw a nice skip shot with a banshee and play it safe with a lay up under the backet. It caught the wind after the skip, went on edge then acted like a sail as it rolled 20` away. Then it fell flat, and to my amzement, started flipping end over end. First time I ever saw that. To say the least I was a little unhappy with the 150 weight. But oh well, cant wait to play with the full range of weights in the states again. Let me know when you come.

Gee, how in the hell have I lived without all this?

Common Sense people. Apply it...all of you. Jesus.

And, it pains me to do this, but I have a comment for the Nick bashers on this thread.

When I didn't like the way things were, I'd often come on here and bitcch about it. I'd also, on the oh-so-very-rare occasion, type some slightly less than flowering opinion of the esteemed Mr. Kight. ;)

Okay, seriously now, when things in the sport, my involvement in it, this board, all the bullschtick that goes along with it...etc., got to be too much for me, what did I do?

Well, at times I tried to be part of improving it. At times I committed myself to things that would make it better. But, in the end...

I bailed. I was burned. I'm done.

Where's lil' Nicki? Involved, like he's always been. And deeply at that.

People who want to be rid of him on this board or in the organizational circles of the PDGA would do well to remember that.

I'm being serious.

And for you Guru bashers, get a f'n clue, for real. Brian's a different kind of cat, but he works his arse off for many of the same people who would hang him from the highest tree.

For Mikey: You could be a force for good. Try to learn how to work with people to bring about changes instead of always planting your heels in the sand and setting your back against the powers that be. You seem intelligent; surely you realize the difference in how to affect change and merely being an adversarial malcontent.

You get that, right?

Man, I sure miss all this sniping......





......not.

I think that's the nicest thing I've read between the two of you. That's MY Christmas miracle. :)

ok, so what's the deal with the Grunion/Polish Power crap? I saw Grunion posted some info from another board that basically resorted to a threat, and that message was deleted, but were they both banned or what? I do not care what it was all about but I felt that very childish to do as an anonymous poster and think if you are too afraid to post your REAL NAME, you shouldn't get a voice on this message board. I do not care if you are a PDGA member or not, but posting attacks from a completely anonymous account should not be tolerated. All accounts should link to a real email address or PDGA #. If you can't be contacted my moderators and you post nasty stuff, you shouldn't belong here.



I have a question. When you established your account, you had to click a link they E-mail you to activate your PDGA login account, correct? Well if you don't remeber cause I'm sure its been awhile, the aswer is yes. My E-mail was true and current. My PM's were on. It just boggles me how I am attacked because I choose to remain anonymous. The actions that led the dispute to the level it got to is just another reason I do not want my personal info posted on the net. The actions by the other party were just wrong. Then when someone posts sensitive information on the board about me, ( My Name) I just retaliated and posted some information found in a news thread about my advisary. It might have been overkill to all that did not see the threads deleted by the PDGA. The truth is I am astounded at how $20 will buy you more than a PDGA membership. I am just speachless. I dont even want to think about the situation anymore because I just get sick to my stomach. Terry the Pirate Calhoun is supposed to be calling me soon......Guess I will have to be sick one more time before this will be once and for all resolved, unless there is further contact from a a certain individual in the future.

Stop attacking the Unknown users.

Well Catfish, I CAN vouch you've been PM enabled, in both your guises...unless you're turning it off and on, that is...

Stop attacking the Unknown users.


Were said "attacks" for being anonymous, or for what you wrote, e.g. inappropriate material? That's a serious question, Catfish, I wasn't an involved in that; I actually didn't see the material in question.

...starting a thread about "hating" someone seems inappropriate in my book, even if it was in jest. Are you claiming it wasn't inappropriate, or that even so, it shouldn't have been removed? That's part of the Mods' duties; you've got to know as such, by now. C'mon, you know I'm listening.

I have never on any occasion turn my pm's off. Thanks for vouching for me Slo.

I admited that it was inappropriate along with an apology, but that was deleted. Twice! Then my account was banned. When I was referring to the other party. I was not reffering to a Mod but an actual member of the PDGA. I can not go into detail but If you would like more, I will gladly pm you. Such material is obviously not meant to be on the board. It got bad and the cover-ups just make me look even worse. Its ok because I know deep down that all members are not represented by a few bad seeds.

no need for the detail: your sentiment is what i was really after>>>is this a kinder< gentler catfish?

yikes< did something to my keyboard :eek: :o

I am the same person. I have to be on my toes because I am trying to get my original account reactivated. That and the fact that I am not posting while I am doing 12 other things and can focus on what I really am trying to convey.

I have pm'ed grunion dozens of times over the course of the last few months!! and likewise grunion to myself!!

This is a pm from Mudshark,
"Are you done ruining everything? It's funny how the instructions say the user will get it the next time they login. Apparently, you never will. You single handedly shut down Hawk's thread--I don't know you and hope that I never will, but I know what went down behind the scenes of the hollow apologies. Go on-be that negative personality online. Maybe you are so brilliant that you also have a positive personality online under another name. I am not going to threaten you, or pray for you, or give a rat's [*****] about you. Just a little unsolicited advise. I would not continue in your path, you do not need that kind of trouble. You are dealing with people from all walks of life, not just kids. They can and will retaliate, and you are probably smart enough to retaliate yourself-but in the end you will lose. Not worth it. Any threatening responses to this will be posted on the the board. Just a precaution."

This is a Pm from Mudshark. This the type of things I recieve as a reminder that if I step on the wrong toes I will be dealt with. I can see how when I post the truth I am the bad guy for exposing people for what they really are.

My response to this email was, B10w me...I'll post it for you.

Stop hating the unknown users

It is poor Internet etiquette to post quotations from Personal Messages to the public list unless you obtain permission from the person who sent the Personal Message.

are you guys STILL AT THIS BULLSH*T!!!

Yes, if you mean am I still at this intense moderation. We're doing heavy moderation through February to see what effect it has. Like it, lump it, or leave it.

Believe it or not, there is huge majority of the world out there, and we think of DISCussion users or potential DISCussion users, who simply don't require uncivillity and profane language to communicate.

I suggest lumping it. Some of the options are worse.

Grunion,

Maybe soon, largely because of your efforts, we will fianlly be able to stop hating the anonymous users.

They may not be able to post to any threads anymore. Don't know yet if that would be a bad thing, almost like being there in person. I don't think it could be much worse than it is now.

are you guys STILL AT THIS BULLSH*T!!!



yea, ban CWare for profanity :D

i'd much rather see the moderators continue to delete offensive stuff than totally banning anonymous posters.

i don't mind that they changed the name of my thread either.

i would still like the stupid "stars" rating system eliminated. i think it invites trouble by putting people in a state of mind that they can damage someone's reputation by rating them one star, and that might make some people use the forums for evil rather than good, like me :D

I could not agree more! :cool:

HEE HEE :)

Yup,,,this is sounding good good to me!! :D

"It is poor Internet etiquette to post quotations from Personal Messages to the public list unless you obtain permission from the person who sent the Personal Message."

Terry, who are you to give advice about internet etiquette? Thanks for deleting my apologies and putting a twist on things in your favor. Give my regards to "the QC" or "Must be a member to use message boards". Truth is, it does'nt matter what you or your puppets think, I know your a minority. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I thought you were going to call me. Fact is, you say one thing and do another. A painted picture is nice on canvas but is uncool in a message board.

Terry,

PLEASE do me a favor and delete this guy from the board and let him just float away into cyber space. This is getting really ridiculous.

That's pretty much the same defintion I've seen most places on the web. It is bad form to post private messages in public forums without the permission of the writer.

Terry,

PLEASE do me a favor and delete this guy from the board and let him just float away into cyber space. This is getting really ridiculous.



I'll second that!

I also agree.

Terry is probably less of a minority than you think.

Another in agreement with the moderator.

Mike, you were banned from this board, and rightly so.

And once you've been banned, instead of working constructively to restore your posting privileges, to show a willingness to contribute to the collective good of the board, or to even post anything relevant to the message board�you (and Natalie, too) have decided to mock the moderator�s authority to ban disruptive users (you), and continue to be antagonistic to both the moderator and other users.

Do us all a favor. Be a man. Reap what you have sown, and walk away from the keyboard. Go out and throw some discs today before the weather turns cold. Or come out to Round Rock this weekend and support a great PDGA-sanctioned event, and get to meet a lot of the members of this board and of the active disc golf community that you might not already know.

This board serves a dual purpose: the sharing of disc golf information and for entertainment. You�re vitriolic ranting of late has served neither purpose.

It is good to see the "minority" stepping up. I also support Terry in this. I understand the need to voice one's opinions and there are very acceptable ways to do this without being offensive.

I'll second the notion. You were banned for good reason. You and Natalie should do the right thing and walk away.

Terry, who are you to give advice about internet etiquette?

***

I thought you were going to call me. Fact is, you say one thing and do another. A painted picture is nice on canvas but is uncool in a message board.


[/QUOTE]

Mike, I am as experienced a 'Netizen as exists. I get more than 1,000 email messages every day and I run nearly 200 lists and discussions. I write about the Internet and higher education and future trends and get paid for it. I am a member of and attend conferences and give presentations at a dozen professional associations related to the Internet. I edit a weekly email newsletter with a circulation of 12,000+ that's been around since 1987 and I also write articles in online newsletters and magazines with circulations that total way over 100,000.

When I say: "It is poor Internet etiquette to post in public without permission from the author private messages or direct email messages. As of now, if I see or am alerted to anyone doing this practice I will edit that message out as soon as I can" - I say it with authority. And when I say it as the temporary moderator of this DISCussion I say it with decision making authority.

As for calling you, I will be doing so soon. I have a very busy life and you are not at the top of my priority list. The way I work and live, email and posting here is easy and quick and phone calls are tougher. Since I am at home sick today I bet I can find the time, but I doubt that either you or I will find it an easy discussion.

It's nice to know the gaming forum that I help run isn't the only one with these issues. :)

Or is that sad? :(

Just can't resist, although I should. Ouch! Make sure of what you ask for, Terry might just deliver!

I agree with Terry.

Even though, I hate it when I miss something jucy.

But the recent banter on the board has bugged me. Specially when it is just banter between two people doing it just to increase there post count.

I have a high post count, but that is not from posting just for the sake of posting.

(is Mike AKA MetalMike???? If it is, then I understand a lot more)

Thanks for calling Terry. Its nice to know that we can speak off the board and get right down to the bottom of things. I apologize to all that I offended. I do come off as a bunghole sometimes (the majority of the time), but the fact of the matter is I took a personal issue and whored the board with it. I went about solving the issue in the wrong way and I was banned.

Now that we can �constructively� (just for you Rooster) resolve our issues and overcome the obstacles of adversity, I have found that I am working with a patient and neutral organization. A lot of my opinions were wrong. A lot of my posts were out of haste. This is a formal apology to all that were offended. I am sorry.

Now lets move on.

Did Terry type that for you? :D j/k
Glad everything has been settled and I hope everyone can get over the unpleasentness that transpired.

...A lot of my posts were out of haste. This is a formal apology to all that were offended. I am sorry.

Now lets move on.


Not before a group hug, everybody!
:D

Oh no, now that is just cheasy! "do what now?"

...I once ate some cheese which made me think I could see into the future, but it didn't. "Silly Con" flavoured.

Don't drink the chocolate milk!!! :eek:

DO WHAT NOW?? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Seriously, thanks for trying to smooth things over man.

You better
Get Back, Hollow Cat,
Better get back to your words,
'Cuz you've...changed your ways
From those
P.H. ways [?]
m, m, mmmmmmmm....change is gonna do you good!

<font size=-3>...if Bernie Taupin were dead, he'd be spinning in his grave!</font>

<font color="red">Peace. -Terry</font>

Post deleted by minicrusher

I see everyone trying to move on...
And it seems like a last word is trying to be reached....
And each are to proud to allow the last word to be spoke by either...
So let me have the last word....
Enjoy golf and respect all! :D

I M Dun. Playing Hornets Nest at 12:00.

enjoy the nest...I have played it and you are blessed to live in playing distance of the course

Well I'm sorry, but I still have a lot say on the subject and I just can't let ..............Just Kidding! :D Finally

Jeannie....have a great day

:D

its about time!!! good to see all...... like vinnie said!! go play golf!!!! and respect your fellow players!!

Yup,,,everyone just go play disv golf!!!
:D:D