Ebay isn't ruining disc golf... the PDGA is ruining disc golf.
� Ridiculously high entry fees make it unaffordable for the average player
� a "National Tour" that has gone bust (there are a very few exceptions), ran off two former world champions, and seemingly keeps regional pros away in droves.
� disc golf numbers boom while Open division numbers remain relatively stagnant
� a competitive system that consists of countless divisions that heavily reward mediocrity with plastic and coddle players who in any other sport would be deemed as recreational
� the practice of gouging ams to help with the bottom line--Meanwhile disc manufacturers seem profit and promote their discs, while little is done to promote the sport itself

Good points, Vince.

They (PDGA) may have good intentions but often the efforts are misdirected.

If we (sport of disc golf) ever learn from our mistakes and attain vision and a solid promotion strategy this great sport could become mainstream someday.

Way to go with your negativity, dude.

Glad to see that someone is willing to stand up and complain.

What are YOU doing for the sport?

I personally like the magazine and I think the rating system is pretty cool, even if it isn't yet perfect.

Of course there are improvements to be made - we are still a very young sport. We WILL continue to grow and improve.

Try a little positive attitude - if things aren't going the way you like them, do something to change it instead of just whining.

I don't know you and I certainly dont want to insult you. Maybe you do quite alot for the sport. I just get so sick of hearing people whining. If you don't like it, dont play PDGA events.

"Ask not what the PDGA can do for you... " and so on

and the whining card has been played......

were the founders of our country whining, when they had enough? You bet!

You wanna grow as a sport then you don't label somebody as a whiner and ask what they have done for the sport...they are doing something by voicing their opinion. You grow as a sport by taking these statements and evaluating them. Apparently members of the sport feel this way, this being the case then it needs to be looked at and addressed.

Really, why is criticism whining? Imagine a world without criticism.

On a sidenote, I personally am glad the government is giving 300 miilion to build that bridge that serves an Alaskan island of fifty people. Complaining about it would just be tasteless and counter-productive. ;)

just posting on here before this gets deleted b/c someone expressed an opinion that the PDGA doesn't agree with.

save the page to your hard drive quick

I�ll try to make it so this thread doesn�t get deleted:

� Ridiculously high entry fees make it unaffordable for the average player
- Agree. PDGA doesn�t set entry fees, TDs do. If you believe in free markets, then some feel the market should decide, especially when many events are selling out at the current fees. For what it�s worth, PDGA casual discussions are leaning toward lowering guidelines for next year.

� a "National Tour" that has gone bust (there are a very few exceptions), ran off two former world champions, and seemingly keeps regional pros away in droves.
- Not sure what this has to do with �ruining� disc golf? They tried the NT and it�s not working as well as hoped. Probably will still be premature until we have maybe 5 times as many players.

� disc golf numbers boom while Open division numbers remain relatively stagnant
- Yep. So what? Booming numbers is good for disc golf isn�t it? Most Open players are not truly pros, just Ams who now play for money without having to sell their pocket money winnings on eBay.

� a competitive system that consists of countless divisions that heavily reward mediocrity with plastic and coddle players who in any other sport would be deemed as recreational
- I refer to the comment above about �disc golf booming� Some of you would not have jobs if they didn�t reward mediocrity in our economic system /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

� the practice of gouging ams to help with the bottom line--Meanwhile disc manufacturers seem profit and promote their discs, while little is done to promote the sport itself
- Gouging Ams? Who�s holding a gun to their heads? Ams can be and are TDs and may run sanctioned events under any format they desire. The manufacturers have more resources to promote the sport beyond PDGA competitions and they do. EDGE in the schools is underwritten by Innova and supported by the PDGA. Disc Golf United is underwritten by Innova. Worlds Biggest is Houck, an owner of Millenium. Gateway has their amateur tour. The PDGA can barely manage their 600 sanctioned event schedule. There are maybe just as many unsanctioned events that reach further out into the disc golf community. Gouging implies the Ams don�t get proper payouts. If they don�t, it�s a TD issue not PDGA. If the Ams were truly �gouged� and the money went to the PDGA, perhaps more outreach and marketing programs could be financed.

I just wanted to second what Chuck said.

The PDGA does not set entry fees; TDs do. If TDs decide to be part of the National Tour, they set their entry fees by that decision.

The PDGA does not determine how many players play in the Open division; the players do. If it makes sense for more players to play Open, I'm sure they will.

The PDGA does not dictate that TDs gouge ams to create a pro purse or make the payments on the TDs' Prowlers. Any ams who are feeling gouged can get together and run better tournaments for ams. I know some ams who did that and it works for everyone except those who want to see the ams get gouged to create a pro purse.

You have the power to make disc golf be what you want it to be. You do not have to sit around blaming the PDGA, or the TDs, or the ams who won't go pro, or the TDs who tell them to just play am and go pro on e-Bay. If you don't have the power alone, you certainly have the power if you work with like minded players who care about the same issues.

? Ridiculously high entry fees make it unaffordable for the average player
- Agree. PDGA doesn?t set entry fees, TDs do. If you believe in free markets, then some feel the market should decide, especially when many events are selling out at the current fees. For what it?s worth, PDGA casual discussions are leaning toward lowering guidelines for next year.



Not true. The PDGA recommends entry fees; it's right there on page 10 of the 2005 PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/05TourStandards.pdf) and a TD who sets his entry fees outside these ranges can expect diminished (possibly drasticly) attendance at his tournament next year. TDs pretty much always go by PDGA standards.

IMO, the PDGA needs to make good with their casual discussions on lowering guidelines for next year and offer guidelines and assistance to TDs on how to raise sponsorship money and garner publicity. I didn't like paying more than $30 to play in a tournament when I was an amateur and I certainly don't like it as an Open player. We're getting nowhere playing for each other's entry fees. Big tournaments NEED to be community events with sponsorship and publicity, which will help to give sponsors some exposure and maybe some return on their donations.

The PDGA recommends entry fees; it's right there on page 10 of the 2005 PDGA Tour Standards and a TD who sets his entry fees outside these ranges can expect diminished (possibly drasticly) attendance at his tournament next year.



I agreed that the fees were too high in some cases but there's nothing preventing TDs from having entry fees BELOW the PDGA guidelines, which was my point, and would likely not reduce attendance. However, if the event is filling at the guideline level, then TDs are averse to lowering them and having to turn people away.

? Ridiculously high entry fees make it unaffordable for the average player
- Agree. PDGA doesn?t set entry fees, TDs do. If you believe in free markets, then some feel the market should decide, especially when many events are selling out at the current fees. For what it?s worth, PDGA casual discussions are leaning toward lowering guidelines for next year.


Not true. The PDGA recommends entry fees; it's right there on page 10 of the 2005 PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/05TourStandards.pdf) and a TD who sets his entry fees outside these ranges can expect diminished (possibly drasticly) attendance at his tournament next year. TDs pretty much always go by PDGA standards.

Chuck said the PDGA does not set entry fees. You say they recommend. There is no disagreement there.

The IOS TDs begin by ignoring the PDGA and setting our entry fees based on our collective judgment as to what works best for the process. This year we set our entry fees lower than the PDGA's strongly urged maximum and our attendance has skyrocketed. We've already discussed what we are doing next year and we have no idea what the PDGA might strongly urge.

This is the way it is with the PDGA: if you run a good tournament that fits on a TD report and don't give them any hemerrhoids, they pretty much take your money and leave you to run your event the way you see fit. If you are running successful events that generate $500 - $1000 in player fees, they are too smart to be harassing gold egg laying geese.

The PDGA does not determine how many players play in the Open division; the players do. If it makes sense for more players to play Open, I'm sure they will.




and


Most Open players are not truly pros, just Ams who now play for money without having to sell their pocket money winnings on eBay.



Ugghh. These two responses basically legitimize the thread's title. Completely off-point and saying essentially nothing, or at least certainly not addressing any real problems with the competitive system. Y'all could have been briefer and said "We don't give a chit."

By the way Chuck, how are we measuring the disc golf boom again? Does growth in competitive players exceed (or even match) growth in the overall people who play. That would just be mediocre performance for a business.

You have the power to make disc golf be what you want it to be. You do not have to sit around blaming the PDGA, or the TDs, or the ams who won't go pro, or the TDs who tell them to just play am and go pro on e-Bay. If you don't have the power alone, you certainly have the power if you work with like minded players who care about the same issues.



Precisely!

If it hasn't been clear, players played for cash in our sport before the broader infrastructure truly supported it with outside money in terms of a large base of amateur players and a public who was familiar with the sport. We evolved our own internal mechanisms to continue to prop up the payouts by tapping our manufacturers and amateurs.

Now, "pros" want to boost outside income and it's apparent the timing isn't there yet. The expression "you can't push a rope comes to mind." It's frustrating for top players who have gotten there a little too early historically. But lashing out at those of lesser skill for enjoying competitive structures that work for them won't move the external processes forward any faster than they're going to go in terms of boosting outside financial support. The strategy of installing more courses and supporting education programs will ultimately help but it won't happen overnight.

I think James isn't lashing out at the players, but the structure provided. And there he has a point. Will reducing "Amateur" entry fees and payouts drive players (and TDs) away in droves? I, like James, don't think so. But the organization's fear of that possibility is unfounded until it actually happens.

But lashing out at those of lesser skill for enjoying competitive structures that work for them won't move the external processes forward any faster than they're going to go in terms of boosting outside financial support.



Who's lashing out at those of lesser skill? I'm lashing out at the PDGA and its respected members who refuse to even contemplate that the system might be seriously flawed, and that those flaws might be retarding the sport's growth.

Basically, if you assume that I am coming from a perspective that says "Top players should be rich" or something, you are misreading me terribly. I, like you, realize that people will not become rich playing disc golf until there are tons more disc golfers. This is probably decades away and funneling resources to get more people playing through efforts like EDGE and stuff is sound policy IMO.

HOWEVER, even though I understand that noone will get rich, it still is a no-brainer for a organization that runs a sport to AT LEAST TRY to create a system that rewards performance. Why? Basically, I could philosophize about the nature and evolution of sports and social structures; or I could describe (poorly) failed economic systems. All this talk would be aimed at illustrating a point that should be patently obvious: health in any sport or social structure is not maximized by rewarding mediocrity.

Does this mean I have some perfect system that exactly matches reward to performance?
No, that will have to wait decades when the sponsors arrive.


Does this mean I have some system where top players make more money?
No, this is also a function of added sponsorship dollars.


Does this mean I have an idea of a healthier system that would retain more members and ultimately create greater numbers at the highest level, thereby making the sport more attractive to sponsors?
Maybe. Maybe not. But this should at least be the goal of the PDGA.

I'm not talking about boosting our sport just to support touring pros. That has been premature since beginning and I think most of them know it.

I�ll try to make it so this thread doesn�t get deleted:

� Ridiculously high entry fees make it unaffordable for the average player
-Agree. PDGA doesn�t set entry fees, TDs do. If you believe in free markets, then some feel the market should decide, especially when many events are selling out at the current fees. For what it�s worth, PDGA casual discussions are leaning toward lowering guidelines for next year.
<font color="blue"> At some point quality must be preferred over quantity instead of jacking up entry fees, or suggest splitting into Pro and Ams on separate weekends. </font>

� a "National Tour" that has gone bust (there are a very few exceptions), ran off two former world champions, and seemingly keeps regional pros away in droves.
-Not sure what this has to do with �ruining� disc golf? They tried the NT and it�s not working as well as hoped. Probably will still be premature until we have maybe 5 times as many players.
<font color="blue"> The NT and Supertours have �suggested� entry fees that are so high that they are losing all of their regional players. What used to be the biggest tournament in a region or state has become unaffordable for the regional pro. If Warwick�s (four-star course, four-star tournament) not filled up by now, it should be taken as a sign that something�s wrong. </font>

� disc golf numbers boom while Open division numbers remain relatively stagnant
-Yep. So what? Booming numbers is good for disc golf isn�t it? Most Open players are not truly pros, just Ams who now play for money without having to sell their pocket money winnings on eBay.
<font color="blue"> What is your vision of the future of the PDGA? With each individual state having a 52 PDGA tournaments a year with 40 rec players, 25 Intermediates, 20 Adv, and 5 Pros with entry fees of $200 per person? The bottom line for the PDGA would be better but the competitive system would be garbage. Wouldn�t the R(ecreational)DGA be a more appropriate name?

No one wants to watch Donald Trump play ball golf against Ted Turner just because they are the only ones that can afford the $100 million dollar entry fee. People prefer to watch the best of the best play against each other regardless of entry fee.
</font>

� a competitive system that consists of countless divisions that heavily reward mediocrity with plastic and coddle players who in any other sport would be deemed as recreational
- I refer to the comment above about �disc golf booming� Some of you would not have jobs if they didn�t reward mediocrity in our economic system /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<font color="blue"> Heavily rewarding mediocrity is not a healthy way to grow a competitive system. Mr. McCaine and I are sick of trying to explain this to you. I give up.

BTW, you come off sounding elitist when you say �Some of you�� It�s sounds like you consider yourself above mediocrity. Good thing the PDGA office rewards mediocrity with regards to Player Ratings being updated on time. </font>


� the practice of gouging ams to help with the bottom line--Meanwhile disc manufacturers seem profit and promote their discs, while little is done to promote the sport itself
Gouging Ams? Who�s holding a gun to their heads? Ams can be and are TDs and may run sanctioned events under any format they desire. The manufacturers have more resources to promote the sport beyond PDGA competitions and they do. EDGE in the schools is underwritten by Innova and supported by the PDGA. Disc Golf United is underwritten by Innova. Worlds Biggest is Houck, an owner of Millenium. Gateway has their amateur tour. The PDGA can barely manage their 600 sanctioned event schedule. There are maybe just as many unsanctioned events that reach further out into the disc golf community. Gouging implies the Ams don�t get proper payouts. If they don�t, it�s a TD issue not PDGA. If the Ams were truly �gouged� and the money went to the PDGA, perhaps more outreach and marketing programs could be financed.


<font color="blue"> I must have not been clear with my argument. It�s not that simply that ams are gouged, because I don�t care either if they don�t care. My point is that most PDGA tournaments rely on turning a profit on am payout to exist. This system doesn�t allow the Pro divisions to grow, because of the need for big numbers of ams. </font>

Why don't I just let Mr. McCaine be my spokesmen!

As soon as I renew, I nominate James McCaine as competition director of the PDGA.

Does this mean I have an idea of a healthier system that would retain more members and ultimately create greater numbers at the highest level, thereby making the sport more attractive to sponsors?



Based on ratings, growth at the top is improving. Winnings of top players and purses are up. I suspect flatter and deeper payouts in Open plus somewhat lower entry fees may be on the horizon so the tweeners between say 960-990 will participate and stick around with better chances to not just be donators. This may also encourage more cross over from Am to Pro.

On the subject of flatter, deeper payouts for pros, I've never understood why player packs for amateurs is a good thing, but not for pros. I mean, why not just give every pro $10 cash for a player pack at registration and thereby pay the pros to last place like we do with the amateurs? ;)

On a serious note, Chuck, since you seem to have your ear to the ground, do you think Pros Playing Am will be around for another year? That is such a good deal for pro women, especially at tournaments where the TD won't run a division for just one or two players.

I don't think you'll see much if any changes in 2006 versus 2005 except maybe the payout related tweaks.

I would argue that health in most sports is the result of rewarding mediocrity. By rewarding mediocrity, you get the broad base of players needed to support an elite few.

You have regional champs, divisional champs, state champs, national champs, world champs. All are rewarded.

All of the winners on the Nike tour are rewarded for the mediocre efforts. If they do well enough, they get the chance to lose on the PGA tour.

The problem is that the Ams are the ones that the current sanctioned events should be about, and there are not enough players or sponsorship to support the top level tour. It's like the top level PGA pros are being invited to attend Nike tour events and then complaining about the low payout and the fact that anyone who doesn't beat them is winning anything.

why DO pros have to pay extra $$$ for a PDGA membership?

they pay more at events. they don't want prizes... (less work for TDs) just cash, which they bring themselves.

Why the inflated price to be a pro?

seriously, does anyone know?

Why the inflated price to be a pro?




I think it's more that there's a discount to join as an Am, or

Pro related activities use proportionally more PDGA resources such as the expenses for the PDGA staff support team for Pro Worlds, the National Tour, plus creating and supporting the Marshal program.

I would argue that health in most sports is the result of rewarding mediocrity. By rewarding mediocrity, you get the broad base of players needed to support an elite few.



Ahh, the PDGA mantra. I'd argue that when you reward mediocrity, you encourage people to think small, to stagnate, to reproduce. :D

To use the biological argument, healthy herds are created by culling the weak and supporting the strong. Every member aspires to be strong, thereby even making the weak stronger.

To use the socialism analogy. When members of the society grasp the subtle signals that is does not pay to improve yourself, guess what happens? They don't improve themselves. They say to themselves "Why should I work harder?" "Why should I learn more?"

Then, take the flipside system. Let everyone know that the only way to achieve success is by working harder and improving themselves. Let them know that they certainly won't be rewarded by ducking challenges and avoiding risks. Well, guess what people do then.

Which society is stronger?

By the way, I don't agree with your premise at all. In the whole scope of the sport of baseball, I was mediocre. However, I was decent when compared to other high schoolers. I wonder why I couldn't have continually stayed in high school, dominated, and made a financial fortune? What a travesty that I had to improve by orders of magnitude to reap financial rewards.

I am a less than mediocre ball golfer. Where can I go to make a profit?

I am slow, have no hops or handle, where's my check? Why isn't my crib on TV? :D

I could go on and on, but hopefully you begin to see that our system is pretty unique compared to other major sports and other successful things on earth.

On the subject of flatter, deeper payouts for pros, I've never understood why player packs for amateurs is a good thing, but not for pros. I mean, why not just give every pro $10 cash for a player pack at registration and thereby pay the pros to last place like we do with the amateurs?



I appreciate the admission, no matter the intent, that we do not have an Amateur Class in PDGA disc golf.

Perhaps we should create more divisions for players to hide out in and win cash or prizes. Yeah, that will help our sport grow! That hair is not split nearly enough, right?

Other sports will undoubtedly use our "Gambler/Carney" approach as a model in promoting their sports ... :p

Winnings of top players and purses are up.


The quantity of the fields is not growing relative to overall disc golf numbers. And if the purses and winnings of the top players are growing, it's only due to the outrageously high entry fees at these tournaments.

I suspect flatter and deeper payouts in Open plus somewhat lower entry fees ...


I agree that flatter and deeper payouts are a good thing for Pro divisions, but "somewhat lower entry fees" isn't going to cut it. I say that entry fees (and their respective sanctioning requirements) should be reduced by no less than 50% across the board.

A tiers cost $80-120 nowadays. Most of these tournaments are long running annual events that used to be sentimental favorites of regional players. Every Pro should want to play in their region's biggest event!!!


Two scenarios:

1) a tournament with 70 pros paying $40 for a total purse of $2800.
2) a tournament with 30 pros paying $100 for a total purse of $3000.

I like scenario one--
-Lots of competitors play in their favorite tournament
-more competition
-reasonable entry fees which leads to seventy people having extra money to spend and support local sponsors
-close to thirty people going home with something in their pockets.

The PDGA condones scenario two.
-Less competitors; less competition
-10 people going home with some thing in their pockets
-20 people lamenting paying outrageous entry fees
-40 "lost pros" sitting at home wondering "Why am I not playing in my favorite event of the year? Oh yeah--It's a hundred freaking dollars"
-60 ams that, along with the pros, are milked for everything they are worth in entry fees and have much less money to support local sponsors.

I'm not sure about how it is across the board, that is a lot of research...

2004 Waco Charity Open had 87 players 100 and some $ entry fee and some really big names. $2200 going to 1st place

2005 Waco Charity Open had 84 players $72 entry fee and not as many big names in the sport. $1400 going to 1st place

So that's 3 less players,fewer high caliber names, and 1200 less in 1st place money.

I completely understand with what your saying, I would hope that entry fees get cut down at everything but NT's. I would like to see the fees stay the same at the National level and drop the fees for the lower tiers. It is too easy for just any body to hold a tourney, our sytem is watered down. Too many tournies , too little cash.

why DO pros have to pay extra $$$ for a PDGA membership?

Because pros get a higher rating for shooting the same score, it also costs more to calculate their ratings. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

why DO pros have to pay extra $$$ for a PDGA membership?

Because pros get a higher rating for shooting the same score, it also costs more to calculate their ratings. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif





LOL...your kidding right? Your saying it costs more to calculate Pro scores...how does that workout?

Why the inflated price to be a pro?




I think it's more that there's a discount to join as an Am, or

Pro related activities use proportionally more PDGA resources such as the expenses for the PDGA staff support team for Pro Worlds, the National Tour, plus creating and supporting the Marshal program.



Uhh....what about when there was no National Tour or Marshals? Both are pretty recent events, but Pros have been paying more for quite some time now.

why DO pros have to pay extra $$$ for a PDGA membership?

There are a lot of things in life which are driven by the laws of economics without anyone having any specific intentions that way. Pros have to join the PDGA to play the top added cash events like Pro Worlds, USDGC, The Memorial, the DGLO, or whatever events are adding a lot of cash these days. Pros do not have a choice to join the some other organization and play that organizations' events yet. The PDGA has a near monopoly in this regard and therefore membership prices are higher on the pro side.

Amateurs do not have to join the PDGA to play good events. They just have to shop around. The ten best events I can think of for amateurs do not require membership. I played a bunch of A-tiers last year and those were no better than many of the B-tiers I played.

So it is a supply and demand thing. Except for the MSDGC and the Players Cup [if the PC is still independent] the PDGA has a lock on the market and membership is the key.

I would argue that health in most sports is the result of rewarding mediocrity. By rewarding mediocrity, you get the broad base of players needed to support an elite few.



Ahh, the PDGA mantra. I'd argue that when you reward mediocrity, you encourage people to think small, to stagnate, to reproduce. :D
<font color="blue">There is of course a diference in the level of the reward. Mediocre play should earn mediocre rewards.</font>

To use the biological argument, healthy herds are created by culling the weak and supporting the strong. Every member aspires to be strong, thereby even making the weak stronger.
<font color="blue">Not really, it makes the weaker ones dead and no longer part of the herd. Not a good pattern to follow in sport</font>


To use the socialism analogy. When members of the society grasp the subtle signals that is does not pay to improve yourself, guess what happens? They don't improve themselves. They say to themselves "Why should I work harder?" "Why should I learn more?"

Then, take the flipside system. Let everyone know that the only way to achieve success is by working harder and improving themselves. Let them know that they certainly won't be rewarded by ducking challenges and avoiding risks. Well, guess what people do then.

Which society is stronger?

<font color="blue"> I would think that both would be fairly weak. One because no one would strive for personal acheivement, the second because no one risk watering down their own personal accomplishemnts by working together.</font>

By the way, I don't agree with your premise at all. In the whole scope of the sport of baseball, I was mediocre. However, I was decent when compared to other high schoolers. I wonder why I couldn't have continually stayed in high school, dominated, and made a financial fortune? What a travesty that I had to improve by orders of magnitude to reap financial rewards.

<font color="blue"> Gotta be some minor league farm team where you could make minimum wage :cool:

If you can drum up the interest, you can have local competitions and play for cash. It's what we as disc golfers do.</font>

I am a less than mediocre ball golfer. Where can I go to make a profit?

<font color="blue"> Who said anything about profit ? All you have to do is figure out how to get 75 players of equal or lesser skill to join you in a tournament and playe better than them. You get a profit.</font>

I am slow, have no hops or handle, where's my check? Why isn't my crib on TV? :D

<font color="blue">You could go on, but you are comparing less than mediocre effort and skills to mediocre performance.

The first step in getting rewarded for mediocre performance is gathering together enough other mediocre players that you have a chance at beating some of them. The PDGA has done this for us already. Now all they have to do is convince them that it is worth their time and money to compete against the very best in the sport and be glad when they never see anything in return. I wouldn't want ot live off of that commission.</font>

I could go on and on, but hopefully you begin to see that our system is pretty unique compared to other major sports and other successful things on earth.
<font color="blue"> I could go into a few things, but my point was that the other really successful systems do not have room for the mediocre players to compete in the professional arenas. Only the best players are able to qualify for positions on the top teams. Disc Golf is more like the city run softball leagues, except that we invite a few top pros to play along with us. The average B-Tier or smaller A-Tier is not a professional event (meaning an event aimed at professionals, no reference to the quality of the event). It is an organized backyard pick up football game. The rewards have to be tailored to the audience. </font>

Just a side note, I don't really disagree with all that James is saying, but it is fun to argue about it.

On the other hand, I am a mediocre Disc Golfer. I only have time to get out and practice a couple of times a week, and many weeks not at all. I'll never improve much beyond where I am without devoting more time and effort to playing the sport.

I currently don't have the time to do that. I barely find time to make it to tournaments to support the TDs and other players. If it is not fun, and I don't have a chance to feel competitive, I won't waste my time driving a couple of hours to play. That may just be me. I don't play minis because they are not fun for me, and you never get to play against your real competition.

I don't want big stacks of plastic for being competitive, and do feel that it somewhat counter productive to provide those types of payout. I do feel I should get something more for playing better than most of the players in my division. I also am in favor of all players getting something of value for attending the event. I would love to see events with enough sponsorship that all players receive a players pack worth more than their entry, and a moderate payout for the winners. I don't see that happening anytime soon and the compromise currently in place isn't making everyone happy.

I truly believe that that sort of "dissatisfaction" is purely the product of us not having an amateur class. Few if any disc golfers have experienced amateur competition, so they are not aware of the possibility of gaining reward simply from performing well, without any form of monetary (or easily converted) profit.

If they had, then there would be more to "win" at our competitions than somebody elses entry fees. Things like "accomplishment", "pride", "satisfaction", "joy of competition" and "unblemished enjoyment" would be there for every competitor. Not just the ones getting a bit of their buddies cash.

This utter and complete lack of understanding or duality is the source of almost all of our major challenges; certainly the ill-will between what we currently call amateur and pro.

Not to belabor the biology debate, but species (read sports) don't survive by propagating their weakest.

My illustration of economic systems was admittedly weak and probably used the wrong terms, but look around .......... Do you really want to argue that social and financial incentives for personal improvement and hard work is a dysfunctional system?

As to the sports examples, your replies remind me of Chuck and Bruces. I'll try to simplify it. Maybe I should write Mr. Stern or Selig and demand that MLB and the NBA sanction and devote their resources to promoting "tournies" that I play against my equally mediocre breathren.

Maybe they will, or maybe they will give my idea all the attention it deserves. :p In other words, your rebuttal might make sense coming from the average Joe, but would it make any sense coming from the head of the sport's organization?

Nick, I wouldn't participate in any purely recreational competition for any period of time without a team or league commitment.

James.

Not to belabor the biology debate, but species (read sports) don't survive by propagating their weakest.

<font color="blue"> They also don't survive by aleinating their amateur player base. They survive because they compete on levels completely separate from their amateur supporters.</font>

My illustration of economic systems was admittedly weak and probably used the wrong terms, but look around .......... Do you really want to argue that social and financial incentives for personal improvement and hard work is a dysfunctional system?

<font color="blue">Most social or economic models rely on a large number of mediocre individuals (average joes) supporting or being supported by a talented few.</font>

As to the sports examples, your replies remind me of Chuck and Bruces. I'll try to simplify it. Maybe I should write Mr. Stern or Selig and demand that MLB and the NBA sanction and devote their resources to promoting "tournies" that I play against my equally mediocre breathren.

<font color="blue">Do you think the NBA/MLB would exist without scholastic sports programs. The mediocre players that once played the game make the professional version possible.</font>

Maybe they will, or maybe they will give my idea all the attention it deserves. :p In other words, your rebuttal might make sense coming from the average Joe, but would it make any sense coming from the head of the sport's organization?
<font color="blue"> That's the point of my rebuttal. The vast majority of PDGA sanctioned events are the equivalent of the city rec softball league. Except that you have a handful of Pro players attempting to compete at a pro level at the same event. It doesn't really work. It would be like a couple of PGA tour players showing up at a municipal Pro/AM. It's not fair to force all the other players to compete against them, and it's not right that they would not win as much as the lesser talented players that the tournaemnt was intended to support.</font>

Nick, I wouldn't participate in any purely recreational competition for any period of time without a team or league commitment.



I know. You are not an amateur sportsman. I wouldn't expect you to. I would expect amateurs, motivated by amateur motivations, to participate. (i.e. collegiate, high and middle school, community groups, leagues, and Players Disc Golf Association amateurs)

Alright, I agree with your first three blue statements, even if I don't necessarily consider them rebuttals. :D

I don't get your fourth blue statement. I'll accept it is similar to Chuck's claim that there really are not that many "true" pros in disc golf. It is an unarguable claim in my mind, and ultimately seems pointless to me. To me, it amounts to saying "there aren't many Schultzes and Climos in disc golf, so rewarding the players in the 15th, 40th, and 80th percentile makes sense." :confused: :confused: :confused:

James, I suspect you wouldn't even agree with the extreme application of your premise which would be winner take all. One division, one champion, one prize. Not even the vaunted USDGC does that. That's pure reward for the only accomplishment that matters with that philosophy and that's winning. I'd like to see the PGA, USTA or any other major sport go to the winner take all approach and see how that flies.

If you can't support the extreme end of your argument, then you fall in with the rest of us and just disagree on how many "mediocre" performances should be rewarded. The implication is that the PDGA rewards more mediocrity than you deem appropriate. Despite reasonably strong leadership in the competition area, the members have beaten back most initiatives to reduce the number of competitive divisions. The organization is membership driven and the PDGA does the best it can to accommodate member wishes.

Rewarding performance means the winner of a division receives more than second place and second more than third, etc. We do this. Higher ratings mean ams have to play in higher divisions. That's performance based. Added cash goes to the top divisions. Am fees help support pro payouts either directly or indirectly. These are all performance based. Tour awards are based on better performance. If anything, rewarding performance is more of a culprit in pushing promising pro players out of the sport than rewarding mediocrity. Lowering entry fees, flattening payouts and paying deeper to retain these players and boost pro field sizes, as promoted by many pros, is more of a reward for mediocrity approach than rewarding performance. Yes?

And Whorley, it's not elitist just my reality since 1983. I've worked 100% as a self employed consultant generating and retaining my own clients, and not as an employee. So whether I got paid was based on performance and client satisfaction, not because I was an employee with benefits who might be able to coast.

I'm just trying to make the point that any successful professional sports organization has a top level of competitions where only the very best are qualified to compete. All Semi-pro organizations regardless of how good they are within their own league can not effectively compete with the "Big Boys" and would not bother to try if that was the only venue they had for competition.

But all of the Major professional sports organizations have semi-pro organizations that allow lesser skilled players to compete for prizes and glory. Many of these also have amateur competitions (scholastic and general) that allow even lesser skilled players to compete, sometimes for prizes, sometimes just for bragging rights.

The difference is that you do not have players/teams from the top eschelons of those sports competing amongst the lower skilled players for profit, and competing for the same prize pool. The majority of participants in disc golf tournaments are more like farm-league baseball players or below. They have shown some skill, but are not consistent or talented enough to play with the top players.

Until we grow to the point that we have a player base that can fill every major event in an organized tour with top level pros, there won't be a true Pro tour.

All of the successful semi-pro organizations build themselves to encourage and support the level of players that make up the majority of their membership and making sure that one team/player won't be able to unfairly compete against the rest.

Although the PDGA is a professional sports organization, the bulk of it's membership is Amateur players. Until it is able to grow a membership base or professional members, it must focus on encouraging amateur players to play sanctioned events. They are consistently moving away from a model that pays the amateur players increasingly large stacks of plastic and more towards a model that rewards more players with smaller shares of thte prize. They are working toward a national standard of entry fees and payouts. this is very difficult because the numbers they recommend will seem too low for some areas, and too high for others. They are working towards making the event less of a gambling outing and more of a fun competitve event.

I think that the flatter payouts and larger player packs will show their worth in the coming years with more mediocre players "stagnating" and staying amateur, but taking home less of the total pot.

I don't think any Amateur player should be able to earn a long term profit from the sport even if they win every event they enter. I would like to see every player take home something of value from the event and have a good time while they are there.

My ultimate preference is a system that divies rewards according to performance. I'm not sure your distortion ("extreme application" in your words) is evidence that the premise is flawed.

Interestingly though, you bring up the PGA in your argument. I find this interesting because golf is a sport where they have achieved an almost seemless curve of improving ROI (return on investment) versus performance. Do I blame the PDGA for the lack of seemless curve in disc golf? Of course not. I realize that will only occur when sponsorship is showering the sport.


If you can't support the extreme end of your argument, then you fall in with the rest of us and just disagree on how many "mediocre" performances should be rewarded.


Really? If you equate rewarding the players that perform in the 15th, 40th, 65th and 100th percentiles (just a wild guess) with a system that rewards only the top X percentiles, then I guess our visions are similar. I don't see it that way however.

As to the number of divisions, I personally don't care about the number of divisions. Clinging to divisions is an offshoot of a system that financially rewards discrete performance brackets. If the financial rewards were put at the top of a few divisions, the desire for multitudes of divisions would abate, as would the sandbagging.



Lowering entry fees, flattening payouts and paying deeper to retain these players and boost pro field sizes, as promoted by many pros, is more of a reward for mediocrity approach than rewarding performance. Yes?



I don't see how lowering entry fees is rewarding mediocrity or performance. It doesn't apply. Paying deeper and flatter. I see your point, but a flatter curve that only exists at the top of the performance axis is still a huge improvement over what we have now. It would give a meaningful direction to participants as opposed to the graph we have now. Also, it would impart the message that the PDGA should be stating: if you are planning to make a financial gain at playing this sport, be prepared to play near the top of all your peers.

May I also point out that PGA tournaments pay out to last place for the big tour? Rewarding mediocrity seems to work there.

Also, MLB, NBA, MLS, (insert pro sport league here) pay the people in the minor leagues. ALL OF THEM! You are rewarded just for making it to a certain point.

The argument of paying only the top of the top is arbitrary and capricious (my new favorite terms of the day). There is no working model. Wait, what about boxing? You can get millions just for getting knocked out! I wanna knock some of the people on this board out after reading their comments <-not aimed at anyone in particular, keep in mind I hit reply to the last post that I saw, not the particular one I was replying to
Let's take up boxing! We all get paid and I get satisfaction!!!

Keep in mind also that I am not a very serious person. Just a bored employee of the government. :D

PGA players have to make the cut or they don't get paid (so roughly the top 50% get paid).

Minor leaguers' pay is substantially reduced compared to Major League salaries.

MA1 dollar values are close or equal to MPO dollar values.

James, 2 words that should not be in the same sentence. Financial gain and discgolf. :D

What about that guy that signs the huge contract in the draft and never makes it out of rookie league in baseball? There were guys coming through the rookie leagues here signing million dollar signing bonuses with contracts fatter than a majority of the everyday starters...how many are in the bigs now? I can think of one...Sean Burroughs...what was that? He got sent back down...oh yeah, but what about his huge contract? Still getting paid copius amounts of money? Crazy

There are no winner take all leagues, or associations. The little guy would never play.

What about that guy that signs the huge contract in the draft and never makes it out of rookie league in baseball? There were guys coming through the rookie leagues here signing million dollar signing bonuses with contracts fatter than a majority of the everyday starters...how many are in the bigs now? I can think of one...Sean Burroughs...what was that? He got sent back down...oh yeah, but what about his huge contract? Still getting paid copius amounts of money? Crazy

There are no winner take all leagues, or associations. The little guy would never play.




Getting paid on potential--drafted/signed Bonus Babies--versus getting paid on (mediocre) results--MAwhatever players--are two different things.

The argument of paying only the top of the top is arbitrary and capricious


To be fair, that is not my goal, my goal is the simple concept of rewards commensurate with performance. Imagine a graph with y axis as ROI and an X axis as performance (use yearlong rating as an example). Our system is simple: as you start and get better, you move up the x axis and your return improves. You get to certain performance levels and oops, off the cliff you go. You decide to work harder and get better, you look back down the x-axis and forward up the x-axis and see lesser performers doing better than you and just as well as the better performers in front of you. You have a choice, you can get better or slack off and get essentially the same payoff. You see that the system doesn't reward your improvement.

Ideally, the system should always entice people to get better.

Y'alls examples of other sports don't wash with me, exact to point out that their are inefficiencies in every labor market. Basically, every professional golfer knows that if they improve their game, they get more financial rewards. Ditto for baseball players, for boxers, for lawyers, doctors, etc. Every system entices you to get better. Slacking isn't a positive financial strategy in other professions or other sports, but it is in disc golf.

GO PADRES!!!!!! :D :D :D

In all seriousness, thank you for reminding me of more important things. :D

I agree that the divisional structure doesn't make a lot of sense from a pay for performance point of view until you shift your perspective a little.

You are getting paid for every player within your division that you play better than.

The bigger the division, and more players you beat, the more you win.



I actually know what you are talking about and agree with you to a point. My point is that the Pros should be getting paid with outside money not entry fees, and there wouldn't be a problem with the Ams gambling for each others entry fees wining the same amount or more than the Pros. Basically that we don't really have a Pro system yet. We have Pro caliber players, but no money for them to compete for. As long as there is no money for them to win, the ams can scratch together enough money to be competitive in the payout department.

The problem isn't that Ams are winning too much, the problem is that the pros aren't winning enough.

why DO pros have to pay extra $$$ for a PDGA membership?

Because pros get a higher rating for shooting the same score, it also costs more to calculate their ratings. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


lol! (I don't think I ever typed that before, but, dammit, that's funny)

. Basically, every professional golfer knows that if they improve their game, they get more financial rewards. Ditto for baseball players, for boxers, for lawyers, doctors, etc. Every system entices you to get better. Slacking isn't a positive financial strategy in other professions or other sports, but it is in disc golf.



I'm not sure how your rant originated (I've reviewed prior posts to no avail).

However your latest statements are misguided. Sure performance and achievement are generally rewarded by monetary awards as well as things like job promotions, prestige and oppurtunities in our society. However while the high profile attorney may earn millions of dollars a year, the joe smoe elder law attorney still makes a comfortable living to support his family. Jason Giambi, Derek Jeter and other superstar athletes make more than the no names, yet most no name professional athletes still make more than most of us at our jobs.

The main reason Barry Schultz doesn't make what Tiger Woods makes is because of the lack of the mainstreamness of our sport which in turn means less spectators, less sponsorship and smaller purses and endorsement contracts.

If a typical A tier Pdga event had 8,000 spectators, 8 million TV viewers and a 4 million dollar purse we could pay 100% of the field. Performance would still be rewarded as the winner might receive 1 million, the 50th place finisher 70K and DFL 2K.

It is my view am divisions should paid in a flat fashion and pro divisions in a graduated format. The main reason we only pay the top third in Open is because that's all the deeper we can afford to pay and still retain a reasonable graduated scale with last place cash getting entry fee returned or better.

The source of ill-will, other than the lack of definition between Amateur and Professional classes, is that our payouts are based if not 100% on entry fees then certainly mainly on them.

Bruce! And what does that make our competitions?
<font color="666666"> Potentially illegal in some states?
Gambling?
Entry fees = Chances?
And for this folks tend to act like gamblers in how they react to the rules and standards that effect their betting tendencies.</font>

What I would strongly support is an official and conscious move towards entry fee/sponsorship/payout standards that make entry fees �entry fees� and not �wagers�. Besides causing such strange behavior and attitudes, it reduces our sport in the view of all other established sports.

Set PDGA minimum entry fees at $15. This is the entry fee for events that have absolutely �no� sponsorship of any kind. No sponsorship, no giant entry fees.

The only way to charge greater entry fees is to match it or exceed it in raised sponsorship. Meaning if you have a 90 person field and raised $2000:

90 X (Min entry fee) $15 = $1350
90 / $2000 = $22.22
$22.22 + $15 = $37.22
$37.22 * 90 = $3350
$2000 + $3350 = $5350 total purse - published fees

Simple. Straight forward. Solves a host of challenges. Everyone knows what is going on. And best of all, it makes our entry fees �entry fees� not �wagers�.

However your latest statements are misguided.



I may not be making my point well, but you restated it here:


Sure performance and achievement are generally rewarded by monetary awards as well as things like job promotions, prestige and oppurtunities in our society.



In other words, the system rewards those who strive to get better, work harder, and perform better.

By the way, I completely understand why Barry Schultz doesn't make millions playing disc golf, and hopefully at least one person understands that has never been my point.

The only way to charge greater entry fees is to match it or exceed it in raised sponsorship. Meaning if you have a 90 person field and raised $2000:

90 X (Min entry fee) $15 = $1350
90 / $2000 = $22.22

$22.22 + $15 = $37.22
$37.22 * 90 = $3350
$2000 + $3350 = $5350 total purse - published fees




Exuse me, but i think the total purse in the example should be $3350. The $3,350 figure includes the $15.00 entry plus the $2,000 added cash. Unless you are allowing the entry fee to be raised by $2,000 to match the outside money raised.


I like the theory behind this idea of a "Base Level" entry fee for all events. However, this brings up the drawbacks of this plan.

The first is getting that outside sponsorship. IMO, this is the most difficult task I face as a TD. In my area, I already need to raise large amounts of money just to reserve the park and pay user fees. Technically this money doesn't count as added cash even though I raised it from outside sources.

Does this entry fee boost apply equally to Ams and Pros when both divisions are offered? For example: if I raise $2,000 cash and apply it only to the Pro division, can I still raise the Am entry fee as well?

Next, are TD's of B-tiers still required to provide a $10.00 player pack for that $15.00 fee?

Ok. I'm a new player, been playing about 4 months & have really gotten hooked on the game. I love to hate it. It's that much fun.......

I think the problem is that everyone is thinking of the "now" and not the "future" of the sport.
I don't think the game is well known enough to even be thinking about big dollar tourneys & payouts.....
Right now I think your (PDGA / everyone) efforts should be into promoting the casual play of the sport not tournaments.
Get more people playing, get bigger sponsors & then onto the best thing that could happen for the game....... get televised events.
I don't think it will happen until more people WANT to see it happen. Which now I don't see it happening. Ask me about disc golf 5 months ago & I would of said "what?" (and I think that's what I said :D )

Just my opinion on the matter. Feel free to retort (retort http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/lachen/laughing-smiley-001.gif )

The source of ill-will, other than the lack of definition between Amateur and Professional classes, is that our payouts are based if not 100% on entry fees then certainly mainly on them.

Bruce! And what does that make our competitions?
<font color="777777"> Potentially illegal in some states?
Gambling?
Entry fees = Chances?
And for this folks tend to act like gamblers in how they react to the rules and standards that effect their betting tendencies.</font>

The answer depends on what state you live in. What we typically do is not legal in every state.

it reduces our sport in the view of all other established sports.

REALLY?

provide us with the official "view of disc golf" from just five established sports. include the name of the sport, the location of its headquarters, the full text of the "view of disc golf", and the name and title of the person from whom you received the "view of disc golf".

do not post on this board until you can provide this information... otherwise people might come to the conclusion that you are blowing smoke out your [I'm a potty-mouth!].

Not good customer service there, Terry

he may have learned it from you

it reduces our sport in the view of all other established sports.

REALLY?

provide us with the official "view of disc golf" from just five established sports. include the name of the sport, the location of its headquarters, the full text of the "view of disc golf", and the name and title of the person from whom you received the "view of disc golf".

do not post on this board until you can provide this information... otherwise people might come to the conclusion that you are blowing smoke out your [I'm a potty-mouth!].



Pat, the source would be IMO. You know about that right? You have one or two of those yourself I'm pretty sure, most of which have zero basis in reality (two dimensional OB lines out on courses, etc)...

<font color="green"> Let me know if this really pees you off and I'll stop. From here it is pretty funny, but I don't want you really upset... </font>

Yes, getting sponsorship is difficult. But wouldn't you agree that by allowing TDs to essentially make 66 to 50% of their feilds "Added Cash" that we as an organization are facilitating TDs from even attempting to raise sponsorship?

IMO having a supertour rely nearly 100% on entry fees for payouts is nearly unethical (not to mention potentially illegal).

And about the players packages; the minimum/maximum would be the same for all divisions. So the Pros and Ams would pay the say "Entry" fee, because that is what it is and "Entry" fee, not sponsorship or added cash.

I don't have all the answers, but this just seems right.

as long as you insist in denying the existance of lines in two dimensions i will go on LMAO at you. you flatter yourself to think that you could exert enough control over me to make me angry.

as long as you insist in denying the existance of lines in two dimensions i will go on LMAO at you. you flatter yourself to think that you could exert enough control over me to make me angry.



I don't deny the existance of lines in two dimensions, just the physical existance of two dimensional lines in a real 3 dimensional environment as an OB line, as per the original discussion. Remember, the line I asked you to stick in an envelope and send me?

Why is the Pro Division not growing as fast as it could? Because the current situation doesn't make it motivating for enough people to build it.

Why are the Am Divisions growing so fast? Why are many tournaments catered to Ams? Because the current situation motivates that behavior. (Time to state the obvious) TDs (If their vendors) make money on Amateurs, whether it be to pay tournament expenses, raise money for club, or compensate them for their time and hard work. (Entry fees are guaranteed sales)

Why are their bids for Am Worlds years ahead of bids for Pro Worlds? There is no room to raise money unless there was great sponsorship. All money is used for expenses and payout. TDs get the satisfaction of running a great event as well as a few complaints. No wonder Pro Worlds isn't bid on years out.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of volunteers that try to grow the sport without any compensation by running a great tourney, club functions, or improving course conditions. But we are too few.

So what does all this rambling mean?

We don't need to put any other effort into catering to AMs. The current situation already motivates people to do that. (ie. run bigger and better AM tournaments = make more money)

However, the current situation does not motivate people to run bigger and better Pro tournaments) So where should the PDGA concentrate their efforts and step in? Where they need to - the Pro Division.

Great, That is all fine and dandy (did I just say dandy?), but how do we do that (improve the pro division). To make a great pro division, it takes great Pro events. To make great Pro events, it takes great money. To get great money, it takes great sponsorship. To get great sponsorship, it takes great exposure. Therefore, to make a great pro division, it takes great exposure.

Now. How do we get exposure? Don't just expose it to the Disc Golf Community (That is not huge exposure in the eyes of major sponsors), Expose it to the masses to include non-disc golfers. And how do we do that you might ask? The obvious answer is TV. I think most PDGA resources to promote the sport should be focused on GETTING IT ON TV. For example: Talk to ESPN. Figure out what type of sponsors are needed to have a half hour show. Have the PDGA be one of those sponsors.

How do companies sell major amounts of product or services to the masses? They advertise. How can the PDGA sell the sport of disc golf to the masses? Advertise. And not just to existing customers, but new customers. It is a proven cause and effect that has made thousands of companies successful.

The secret of success is to find someone who has what you want, do what they did, and you'll get what they got. Texas Hold'em has exploded in the past couple years, because it is on TV and it is fun to watch. Disc Golf is already fun to watch.

Anyway, Thanks for listening. I don't post much, but I love the sport and would love to see it explode. Hope it sparks some interesting discussion - maybe even some action.

Complaints are fine, Solutions are better, but Action gets things done.

Yep. I agree with Pin High and is basically what I said in my post (but mine only took 1 paragraph. lol :D )
Advertise, get more people playing casually, then aim for big sponsors/TV.
It's a simple plan. (but I'm sure not so simple too make happen)(well, an "attempt" would be nice)

See the outcry over DiscTV (justified given their track record at the time) and SportsLoop (unjustified since all the members were clamoring for such an agreement. that one simply did not work out.).

Everybody cries over needing more exposure. The PDGA BOD tries to get more exposure. Everybody cries about how the BOD is wasting all the members money.

Rinse. Repeat.

You forgot "lather" :D

And......... what is "DiscTV" and "Sportsloop"?

Has a attempt to make it on TV already been done?

ahhhhh.............
new posters.......

stuff that has transpired in just the last 2 years.....
and they never even heard of it....

you might need to change your handle to newtyme :D


don't listen to rhett about sportsloop....
yes the players asked for something to be done...BUT getting a deal that at least was 1/100th fair to the pdga would have been nice.....
instead of the A S S reaming they got with players dollars :mad:

notice the NEW DEAL got just as much exposure for the pdga nationally(AS IN NONE)...but at least it didn't cost anything this time...instead of 50,000 dollars like last time.....

rhett just has a problem with looking past THAT part of the deal when he's whitewashing it

ahhhhh.............
new posters.......

stuff that has transpired in just the last 2 years.....
and they never even heard of it....

you might need to change your handle to newtyme :D


don't listen to rhett about sportsloop....
yes the players asked for something to be done...BUT getting a deal that at least was 1/100th fair to the pdga would have been nice.....
instead of the A S S reaming they got with players dollars :mad:

notice the NEW DEAL got just as much exposure for the pdga nationally(AS IN NONE)...but at least it didn't cost anything this time...instead of 50,000 dollars like last time.....

rhett just has a problem with looking past THAT part of the deal when he's whitewashing it



Keith, you wrote what I was thinking about new posters.

There's been lots of water under the bridge that so many don't know about, and will never likely learn.

Recall also that the PDGA folks interviewed several parties about Marketing the PDGA (none as slick as polished as Sportsloop, nor as costly) but then decided after that round of interviews to go with yet another group, the SL guys, who were tied in with the DiscTV folks somehow. Marketers are salesmen, first and foremost, and SL made a slam-dunk sale to be sure. And anyone who saw the sponsorship fees the SL folks included in their proposal to perspective sponsors would certainly have busted a gut. Outrageous fees, with nothing to back-up the expenses, no wonder no one even nibbled. Strike that, there were some Clif bars donated. Woo Hoo.

Anyone remember the Worlds carried on the Outdoor Life Network? You can't say TV hasn't been tried.

Anyone with more realistic vision might consider contacting me if they have a community access TV station in their area. Then you, too, can hear folks say "I saw disc golf on TV last night!"

Joe

Things in my mind tend to run together, but I think I remember disc golf being on ESPN or something in the late eighties or early to mid nineties.

keith,

why are you berating OldTyme for not knowing anything about this stuff - even though it all happened within the last two years?

had any of it been a success, then he might have known.

the fact that he doesnt know about it kinda just proves how much of a failure it was.

:D
I didn't take it that way. My user name "oldtyme" is from motorcycle forum I visit. I'm in no way a Oldtyme disc golfer.

But yes, 5 months ago I never even knew about the sport.
Since I've started playing I've gotten at least 10 of my friends playing & they all love it. It's a great game, just not well known.

In the DiscTV/SportsLoop saga, I believe it was the PDGA itself that exclusively contracted to DiscTV for National Tour coverage. DiscTV had a horrible reputation for delivery, from when they tried to do subscription web-cast coverage of disc golf and collected subscription fees and then didn't deliver. Signing them up was a mistake, and many of us pointed that out at the time. (Some people think I am just a fan-boy. Not true, I'm just a realist and I know that we can't juts click our heels and be a mainstream sport with million dollar purses.)

SportsLoop was brought in to market the new National Tour, but the TV rights were slaved to a failing DiscTV entity that never did produce on that initial year of the National Tour, and SportsLoop's hands were tied for any other kind of TV coverage.

Yes, the SportLoop thing cost a lot of money and it didn't work out. I still think it was a good thing to try. Not everything works out. I think we ourselves (the PDGA) contributed to the lack of return because SL didn't have a real chance under the conditions at the time.

keith,

why are you berating OldTyme for not knowing anything about this stuff - even though it all happened within the last two years?

had any of it been a success, then he might have known.

the fact that he doesnt know about it kinda just proves how much of a failure it was.



your post just proves what I WAS SAYING.....
i NEVER berated him at ANYTIME in my post...
just had fun with his username(with a smiley i might add)

the PERSON i DID berate was mr rhett stroh for his failure to understand disc golf economics....but he came on later to TRY to explain his way out of his lack never bashing the pdga..... :eek:

have a good day shoeless one :D
keith

the PERSON i DID berate was mr rhett stroh for his failure to understand disc golf economics....but he came on later to TRY to explain his way out of his lack never bashing the pdga..... :eek:


DiscTV. Removal of the 2 Meter Rule. I bash the PDGA when *I* think it's warranted, and I don't hold back.

Inaccurate ratings for people who don't have a stable rating? Tourney stats for tourneys where the TD didn't turn in a complete TD Report? Trying to get exposure for the sport after the membership overwhelmingly asks for more exposure? Nothing to bash the PDGA for over those things. :)

A Rhett/Keith joint. Rhett reads only what he wants and Keith can't read at all. This should be interesting. :p ;)