I was just watching the President's Cup (ball golf) on my lunch break and wondered why the PDGA doesn't do something similar to the President's Cup or the Ryder Cup? Imagine all the top U.S. players going head to head with the rest of the world in all sorts of singles and doubles events at some of the best courses around the world. That would be awesome! Although the U.S. clearly has the best players, in some of the formats it wouldn't matter.

I thought that the US had better players by far, but then I saw Andre Battei in his Hyzernauts video (see disc golf video thread). He would probably lose, but Battei v. Climo or Shultz would be a darn good match.

hyzernauts (http://hyzernauts.de/index_news.html)

thread (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=443658&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=2#Post445900)

Although the U.S. clearly has the best players, in some of the formats it wouldn't matter.



Not true. 2 of the highest rated 4 players are from Sweeden.

Yeah but I think they get a little ratings Boost because they never seem to do as well as thier rating in the US.

I think an interstate challenge would be the best idea if there ever was a type of competition like this.

The NC vs NCal would be a good match-up. You guys had a studly team in that tourney with the cows. Match play is a nice break from stroke play. And the team concept makes it even more special.

haha that tournament with the cows hahah....yeah we were stacked - looking at my trophy with the cow on it as we speak.

BTW - that was only Raleigh - that doesn't even include Charlotte or anywhere else in NC.

Yeah but I think they get a little ratings Boost because they never seem to do as well as thier rating in the US.

Or maybe they labor under a handicap due to jet lag, cultual dislocation, psychic and/or somatic disequilibration, etc., when they compete to the US.

Every single one of them? :D:DThen why do our guys do well when they go overseas? :o

Every single one of them? :D:DThen why do our guys do well when they go overseas? :o



Same thing happens sometimes. Ask any of the US players that were at the British Open this year about the wind conditions, which most of the UK players thought were normal.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4932#Open

This type of competition is just one of the items being discussed at the international level in the PDGA-WFDF International Disc Golf Committee

Every single one of them? :D:DThen why do our guys do well when they go overseas? :o



Same thing happens sometimes. Ask any of the US players that were at the British Open this year about the wind conditions, which most of the UK players thought were normal.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4932#Open



After looking at the results it appears no one of significance from the US made the trip accross the pond.

Had there been even one household name, even a 1000+ rated player in attendance your point would seem valid. Considering there were no Climos, Schultz's, Feldbergs or McCoy names there your point is moot.

To be a little bit of a homer, if Olse could afford touring nationwide, I believe he would be qualify as significant.

The fact that he and UPMikey both played well actually helps show that the US guys did better there than the Euros seem to do here.

So you're saying he can't afford to tour in the US but he can tour in other continents?


When I saw Olse's and Kernan's finish, I couldn't help but notice Fernando Brown's name sandwiched between them. He played advanced in our Mid Atlantic region for many years, it appears he's now holding his own in the pro division on that side of the pond. Way to go FB!

No, I'm saying that he can afford to take a week of vacation and spend it playing in England. Very similar to the Nordic group coming in for Worlds. He can't (probably) spend the entire summer traveling the US on the NT or SuperTour.

A thread entitled "US vs The World" and we get to dog on Olse and Mikey. Woohoo.

I agree with SM, if we had sent some "real" american golfers besides Mike and Mikey, things would have been much different. :D

Seriously, I haven't read this thread at all, but a President's Type cup in disc golf would rule. Can Chris DiMarco chunk a disc? :p

US team:

Ken Climo
Barry Schultz
Dave Feldberg
Steve Rico
Nate Doss
Brian Schweberger
Kevin McCoy
Steve Brinster
Mike Moser
Larry Leonard
Alexis Bubis
Matt Orum

Okay we got our team.....

Okay International team what you got??????

You think an international team of 12 can take on this dirty dozen?

BRING IT!

The NC vs NCal would be a good match-up. You guys had a studly team in that tourney with the cows. Match play is a nice break from stroke play. And the team concept makes it even more special.



A Team from NorCal Does/Will/Can WHOOP all others.... :D

I always thought it'd be cool to have a national state team competition where each state sends it's best 12 or however many to a course that changes every year. There would be some great teams and golf where we could do dubs, alt., and singles for the weekend.
You'll be missed Mike, and thanx for all your work over the years bring'n Norcal to glory again. I'm jump'n head first into the open pool this weekend at Faultline-should be awsome.
Disc ON!!!

I was just watching the President's Cup (ball golf) on my lunch break and wondered why the PDGA doesn't do something similar to the President's Cup or the Ryder Cup?



Some years ago there actually was an attempt on this kind of US vs Europe competition. It was called "Culture Clash". (I think Stokely acted as US team captain back then.) Don't really know why it ceased to be, likely due to the cost of travelling. For this to really work we would probably need major sponsor funding so the players wouldn't need to put up the cash themselves. But I believe it could really be a nice showcase for the sport.

And of course I'm sure a cross-European team headed by for example Jesper Lundmark, Markus K�llstr�m and finn Timo Pursio could very well match the US skills... :D ;)

[/QUOTE]A Team from NorCal Does/Will/Can WHOOP all others.... :D

[/QUOTE]

Bring it. NC aint skeered. But since the logistics of travel will prevent this from happening, how will we determine who's the best.
Placement at Worlds across all divisions?
Placement at the USDGC?
Whats the wager?

A Team from NorCal Does/Will/Can WHOOP all others.... :D

[/QUOTE]

Bring it. NC aint skeered.

Dag on right Rick B. The Hardest part of that challenge would be just picking the team.

A Team from NorCal Does/Will/Can WHOOP all others.... :D



Bring it. NC aint skeered.

Dag on right Rick B. The Hardest part of that challenge would be just picking the team.

[/QUOTE]How 'bout the Innova Team Champion Throwdown: NC's Team Champion members vs. NoCal's?

NC's got Snoop, LL, Stan the Man, Mad Dawg, and Schweby; NorCal has Geoff Lissaman and ... um ... ah ... hrm ... NoCal's got Geoff Lissaman and ... and ... and ....

OK, maybe that's NOT such a good idea. :D:D:D

norcal has the lissaman's ....and someone called


this year's pro world champion

How 'bout the Innova Team Champion Throwdown: NC's Team Champion members vs. NoCal's?



norcal has the lissaman's ....and someone called

this year's pro world champion

And Nate dumped Discraft and joined Team Champion ... when????

wasn't replying specifically to you...more of a norcal vs nc from the few posts in front of you....


i don't really care as i love everybody no matter who they are :D

wasn't repying specifically to you...more of a norcal vs nc from the few posts in front of you....

Yeah, right. More like you got caught with your pants down once again and now you're scrambling madly to cover your [*****]. :D

wasn't repying specifically to you...more of a norcal vs nc from the few posts in front of you....

Yeah, right. More like you got caught with your pants down once again and now you're scrambling madly to cover your [*****]. :D



caught me again felix :D

like i said,i love everybody----even someone like you :D

i don't really care as i love everybody no matter who they are :D


Even nick?

alright felix jr...

almost everybody ;)
:D

norcal has the lissaman's ....and someone called


this year's pro world champion



That's all Norcal could muster was 1 world champion from this year?
We brought 3 world championships home. Including 3 of the last 4 years in advanced, a two time repeat and a 5 time repeat.

Side bet on Norcal vs. NC at the USDGC? Don't tell me what Nate did in Penn. what's he gonna do in Rock Hill.

rope

lots of <font color="yellow">YELLOW </font> rope

and fences
inside and outsides of fences
to be ob or not ob :D

Side bet on Norcal vs. NC at the USDGC?


So....you believe that NC needs home field advantage in order to have any chance at all against NorCal?

Yeah, that's true. :)

Rock Hill, South Carolina. No home field advantage as the Gold course is only set up for 2 weeks out of the year.

And sides you're Socal. :D

I'm flying into North Carolina on Sunday. That's the closest airport to Rock Hill. That makes it home cooking. :) And the course is there year-round, so you can still practice it all you want even if the yellow rope isn't down. I'm sure y'all can remember about where it is.

Sure there's a NorCal/SoCal rivalry. But there is just one state. And while I can pick on NorCal, as soon as some east coast furrinner starts talking trash.....well, then it's like picking on a brother. :)

You sure you don't want to just challenge Hellyer Park or Auburn versus NC? Since state-versus-state leaves you overmatched, you might not want to challenge all of half the state, either. :D

We can settle this the old fashioned way.
You (representing all of Cal.) vs. Me (representing all of NC)

You do hold a slight advantage in the player rankings being 7 points higher. Winner has to proclaim the dominance of the other for a period of 6 months following the outcome. Of course we'll have to play on an off day seeing as you got in and I'm just vending and volunteering.

And while it's true that most of the gold course stays up the entire year, it's not all the same. The yellow rope, the spectators, the overall granduer of the USDGC evens the playing field for everyone. You'll see. You come away from this thing with a sense of just how big and special it is.Plus that rope makes one heck of a difference.

I'm flying into North Carolina on Sunday. That's the closest airport to Rock Hill. That makes it home cooking. :)

Y'all must o' took one too many hits of that there wacky tabacky iff'n y'all think that Charlotte Douglas is the closest airport to Rock Hill, 'cuz Rock Hill/York County/Bryant Field (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KUZA) aint no more'n 6 miles from Winthrop. :p

Funny thing. Knowing who you are it's hard to imagine you talking with a southern twang like that. Too funny :D

Y'all must o' took one too many hits of that there wacky tabacky iff'n y'all think that Charlotte Douglas is the closest airport to Rock Hill, 'cuz Rock Hill/York County/Bryant Field (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KUZA) aint no more'n 6 miles from Winthrop. :p


Wellllllll.......it's the closest airport that'll land more'n a crop-duster. :D

We can settle this the old fashioned way.
You (representing all of Cal.) vs. Me (representing all of NC)


I'm not so sure that Nate and Stevie want to pin their hopes on li'l ole me. :)

How come there's no Dorius or Pelg on that registration list??? :confused:

norcal has the lissaman's ....and someone called


this year's pro world champion



That's all Norcal could muster was 1 world champion from this year?
We brought 3 world championships home. Including 3 of the last 4 years in advanced, a two time repeat and a 5 time repeat.

Side bet on Norcal vs. NC at the USDGC? Don't tell me what Nate did in Penn. what's he gonna do in Rock Hill.

rope

lots of <font color="yellow">YELLOW </font> rope

and fences
inside and outsides of fences
to be ob or not ob :D



i'm from arizona what do i know :D

i just wish I was playing there :(

You can still play. With the ealier start day this year the course will be open on Sunday to spectators, staff and anyone else wanting to play the gold course as it's laid out for the pros.

[quote
That's all Norcal could muster was 1 world champion from this year?


[/QUOTE]

2005 NorCal World Champions:
Nate Doss: Pro Open
Annie Kreml: Prom Women's Masters
Stacy Pauly: Am Women
Danny Corbett and Sam Aldrich: <19 Juniors

5-4 NorCal wins!! :D

Ok, you can add your Ams now. :confused:

Here's the reason why i think some international players get a ratings boost overseas. Just look how they are doing compared to other players wityh similar ratings.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4718

Here's the reason why i think some international players get a ratings boost overseas. Just look how they are doing compared to other players wityh similar ratings.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4718

Now let's pick up the tournament, transfer it to Sweden, have the US players fly in two or three days before the tournament, change their waking, eating, and sleeping patterns, and play an unfamiliar course and see how they do against the international players playing in their home environment.

Ok so what about all the guys that travelled to the tournament and have been on the road for days? :o:o

Ok so what about all the guys that travelled to the tournament and have been on the road for days? :o:o

Hello??? Have you ever heard of, much less experienced, a thing called "jet lag"?

Here's a clue for you: your body clock (circadian rhythm) doesn't go into suspended animation when one travels: it adjusts continuously. If they've been on the road for days, their body clocks have been adjusting gradually over those days. Instead of having to adjust to a 3 hour time change all at once, they're adjusting over a 2-3 day stretch, while the players coming from Europe move across 6-8 hourly time zones (depending on where they're coming from) in less than 12 hours. Well, guess what: the human body simply isn't equipped to handle that magnitude of an adjustment in that short a period of time. Bottom line: players flying in from overseas experience jet lag; players travelling by car or train don't.


Following a journey across multiple time zones the body's rhythms at first retain the characteristics of their point of departure. However, the new environment forces new influences on these cycles, the main factors being the time of sunrise and onset of darkness. The body attempts to adjust to this new context but core temperature is relatively sluggish in doing so. As a rough guide it takes about one day for each time zone crossed for body temperature to adapt completely. The individual may have difficulty in sleeping for a few days, but activity and social contact during the day help in accelerating the adaptations of the arousal rhythm. Thus arousal adjusts more quickly than does body temperature to the new time zone. Until the whole spectrum of biological rhythms adjusts to the new local time, the performance of exercise may be below par. ...

Observations on traveling to Korea (9 hours in advance of British Summer time) and Malaysia (7 hours in advance of British Summer time) are that periods of 9 and 6 days respectively may be inadequate for jet lag symptoms to disappear
[/b] (Thomas Reilly, "Travel: Physiology, jet-lag, strategies" in Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine and Science, T.D.Fahey, ed, Liverpool: John Moores Univ., 1998; see also, D. S. Minors, J.M. Waterhouse, and L.R. Smith, "The body clock: jet-lag, physical and psychological rhythms," in Intermittent High Intensity Exercise: Preparation, Stresses and Damage Limitation, D.A.D. Macleod, R.J. Maughan, C. Williams, G.R. Madeley, J.C.M. Sharp and R.W. Nutton (Eds.). E. London: F.N. Spon: 1992; T. Reilly, "Circadian rhythms and exercise" in Exercise, Benefits, Limits and Adaptations, D. Macleod, R.J. Maughan, M. Nimmo, T. Reilly and C. Williams (Eds.). London: E. and F.N. Spon, 1987; Olympic Committee. From the U.S. to Seoul. Colorado Springs: U.S. Olympic Committee, 1988.)

i'm just glad felix found someone else to straighten out :D

i'm just glad felix found someone else to straighten out :D

Don't worry, Keith ... I'll get back around to you eventually. :p

Note that I am NOT arguing whether or not players overseas receive a ratings bump; I am simply making the point that there are other factors besides inflated ratings that might explain the apparent "underperformance" of overseas players when they come to the US.

(Michael Johanson's rating, for example, is 1007, but he shot rounds rated 1037, 1046, 1061, and 1040 this past weekend to win the Charlotte Open. His overperformance relative to his rating could be explained, at least in part, by the fact that he's from the Charlotte area, and might reasonably be expected to benefit from a "home course advantage" when competing on his "home" courses.)

i'm just glad felix found someone else to straighten out :D

Don't worry, Keith ... I'll get back around to you eventually. :p



dang....i thought i was free......
i'm going to have to have you fly out to the next arizona tournament i'm at so i can just play and not be the rules guy all weekend :p

we had a couple of mando ricochet calls and lots of other fun stuff....
i'm just glad i only have 1 more tournament left in my career

International players got their ratings one of two ways:
1. Playing in the U.S.
2. Earning their ratings in their own countries by 'taking' ratings points from other international players who are propagators.

Neither of these processes would lead to inflated international ratings and would more likely lead to international ratings being somewhat depressed. The one theory I've heard, that some international players played really well over here and got inflated ratings only to lose a lot of those points to their countrymen when they went home, makes sense on a limited basis. But the size of the international player pool is growing so quickly that a few players with boosted ratings would be small in comparison to all of the new players getting new ratings in their countries and playing in the U.S., likely to the detriment of their ratings.

I played with 4 europeons this weekend in Charlotte. Two of which were rated over 1000, the other two were in the 990s. Now I've played with many 1000+ rated players and (not trying to sound rude), these guys were not 1000 rated players, or 990 players. I'm not saying they aren't good, I was just thinking they were around the 970 mark.

Jesper is for real as is Kallstrom. Anders Kallstrom is good as is Daniel Strandberg - the rest I was very shocked about thier ratings after playing with them and seeing thier scores.

Not every course has a 'homer' advantage. It makes one wonder whether there's something about the design that needs to be taken into consideration to make a course suitable for tournament play without a distinct advantage for locals. It would appear that the more wooded a course, the more likely it has technical aspects that are harder for traveling players to learn fast enough such that locals have an edge.

The 1st instance where i got the idea of an inflated rating was when johannes Hogberg won <19 last year but shot just under 960 at worlds yet his rating went to 984 right after worlds. He had plenty of time to acclimate as he was there pretty early before the event yet he was shooting over three strokes per round off his overseas average. This equates to 24 strokes over the eight rounds that were rated at worlds. He still beat me though. :D:D

i think the europeans will likely do well at usdgc due to the relatively open nature of the course. (they're like texans- only better :o ;)) the opposite would've been true for charlotte open with many more trees.

Aren't the vast majority of european courses long and wide open(by east coast standards)? What type of course was the Charlotte Open played on?

There are plenty of US players that are much better on a finesse course vs. a long course, and the other way around. I can easily see a 950 golfer beating some 980- 1000 rated big arms on a tight wooded course. I know some that I could beat.

I remember Jesper? taking 3rd at Worlds 2000, and those courses were somewhat technical, but I don't consider then "tight" courses.

Aren't the vast majority of european courses long and wide open(by east coast standards)? What type of course was the Charlotte Open played on?



The Charlotte Open was played at Hornet's Nest. Pretty open on the front 9 and pretty tight on the back 9.

The "Be The Disc" virtual tour (http://www.charlottedgc.com/hornets_be_the_disc.htm) has an aerial map, pictures, and videos so you can see for yourself and judge for yourself.

The 1st instance where i got the idea of an inflated rating was when johannes Hogberg won <19 last year but shot just under 960 at worlds yet his rating went to 984 right after worlds. He had plenty of time to acclimate as he was there pretty early before the event yet he was shooting over three strokes per round off his overseas average. This equates to 24 strokes over the eight rounds that were rated at worlds. He still beat me though. :D:D


A fine example of a post hoc fallacy.

If his post-Worlds ratings jump were based SOLELY on his performance at Worlds, one could possibly draw that inference. Since, save for the situation in which Worlds were the only event a player had played between ratings updates, it is doubtful that the jump would be based solely on the results of that one event.

Incidentally, considering that Johannes competed in the Stolkholm Open which concluded 8 days before the start of AM Worlds and the 7 hour time difference between Stokholm and Des Moines, and in light of Thomas Reilly's observation regarding the duration of the carryover effect of jet lag, it is debatable whether or not he would have had "plenty of time" to acclimate prior to the start of Worlds, so maybe his rating isn't inflated; maybe the rest of y'all's are! How else can you explain how he could play like krap and still kick all y'all's *? :p :D:D:D

Huh he was three years older than me. :oAlso I played like a puzzy that year. :D

The 1st instance where i got the idea of an inflated rating was when johannes Hogberg won <19 last year but shot just under 960 at worlds yet his rating went to 984 right after worlds. He had plenty of time to acclimate as he was there pretty early before the event yet he was shooting over three strokes per round off his overseas average. This equates to 24 strokes over the eight rounds that were rated at worlds. He still beat me though. :D:D


A fine example of a post hoc fallacy.

If his post-Worlds ratings jump were based SOLELY on his performance at Worlds, one could possibly draw that inference. Since, save for the situation in which Worlds were the only event a player had played between ratings updates, it is doubtful that the jump would be based solely on the results of that one event.

Incidentally, considering that Johannes competed in the Stolkholm Open which concluded 8 days before the start of AM Worlds and the 7 hour time difference between Stokholm and Des Moines, and in light of Thomas Reilly's observation regarding the duration of the carryover effect of jet lag, it is debatable whether or not he would have had "plenty of time" to acclimate prior to the start of Worlds, so maybe his rating isn't inflated; maybe the rest of y'all's are! How else can you explain how he could play like krap and still kick all y'all's *? :p :D:D:D



So was I affected when I drove non-stop from Houston to Flaggstaff with a two hour difference? No actually I played the next way and felt pretty good. I am used to wide open courses but I didn't play like crap on the short tight couses this year and I don't think anyone from TX had a problem with it so why would they. BTW we had elevation too.

Hey Scooter, pay attention! It's called JET-lag, not car-lag.


Allowing for individual differences, the severity of jet lag is affected by a variety of factors. In general, the greater the number of time zones crossed, the more difficult it is to cope. A 2-hour phase shift may have marginal significance but a 3-hour shift (e.g. British or Irish teams traveling to play European football matches in Russia or Turkey or a Californian sports team traveling to play on the east coast of the US) will entail desynchronization to a substantial degree. In such cases the flight times time of departure and time of arrival - may determine the severity of symptoms. = Manfredini, R. F., Manfredini, C., Fersini, C., & Conconi, R. (1998). Circadian rhythms, athletic performance, and jet lag. British Journal of Sports Medicine, 32



The reason "they" would experience jet lag and you wouldn't is because "they" were crossing 7 time zones, not two.

I understand that but the fact is even on the last day of the event (nearly two weeks after he got there) he still played way below his overseas ratings. :confused:

look at the USDGC results. Some do seem to be over rated, but I don't think they all are.

Could be that the top european pros are really top pros, and some of the others are just top pros on certain types of courses?

Yeah like MTl said Jesper and kallstrom or the real deal along with a few more but the rest I'm not so sure about.

I always thought it'd be cool to have a national state team competition where each state sends it's best 12 or however many to a course that changes every year. There would be some great teams ...



They do that in New England where they have 6 tiny states, they have a state playoff, best 4 players from each state. Maine won one year and I don't know about other years. I guess Mass probably won sometimes but I think the best players in NE are the Mainiacs.

but I think the best players in NE are the Mainiacs.





Incorrect!

Conneticut ....

......aka Frizzak Territory

Hey all you Jet lag guys read the ratings thread on USDGC. :D

The NC vs NCal would be a good match-up. You guys had a studly team in that tourney with the cows. Match play is a nice break from stroke play. And the team concept makes it even more special.



A Team from NorCal Does/Will/Can WHOOP all others.... :D

NOT

C'mon they could possibly beat other regions........Like Rhode Island for example. :D As of right now I would put the top 5 Tx guys up against any other 5. Just because I have seen these guys lately and they are plying hoTT(not like that)

C'mon they could possibly beat other regions........Like Rhode Island for example. :D As of right now I would put the top 5 Tx guys up against any other 5. Just because I have seen these guys lately and they are plying hoTT(not like that)



:oYou need to travel out west a bit more scooter....

Then just MAYBE you will understand.......

The NorCal Series has ENDED quite a few "Cash Streaks" of touring players.. :eek:

The depth of competition is like NO OTHER in the world...Only at an NT or Major will you find fields consistantly as strong........

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <font color="green"> And I dont even live there any more </font> ;)

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif And I dont even live there any more

Let me guess. When you moved, the average Player Rating went up in both places?

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif And I dont even live there any more

Let me guess. When you moved, the average Player Rating went up in both places?



:eek: :o :mad:/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :p :D