The PDGA �Touring Pro� is about to go the way of the dodo bird. I think we need to get Feldberg, Brinster, Schwebby and a few others and put them in a zoo. They are the last of a breed on the verge of extinction. Five years ago there were traveling golfers popping up everywhere, now they seem to have scurried back home.

Why is it that nobody cares that two of the last five World champions (at the peaks of their careers) quit playing disc golf completely? I�m not asking for specific reason why Russel and Todd quit playing. I�m asking why nobody cares or thinks this is a bad sign for the sport. I know they weren�t the most likable guys, but doesn�t it seem that something is wrong with the sport when World Champions quit playing? What if Barry Schultz or Nate Doss quit playing next year?

Moooooo, I dont want to be put in a ZOO. :(

I think that the PDGA is going through a rut right now. A few years ago, people looked forward to playing supertours b/c there were so few - now just about anyone can play 5 or 6 in a year with only a 3-5 travel time.

The NT scene is doing the same - theres like 15 now.

The PDGA is overscheduling A Tiers and Supertours and causing player burnout. Also, I think money is a big issue as well. Dave Feldberg was talking to me about this at the Crosstown this year and brought up a great point. He said that the payout structure is rediculous. Some guy plays good and earns his 2,000 dollar (or whatever it is) paycheck. The guy in third, two strokes out, gets only 700. Over the course of sometimes 240 throws in a tournament and 1,300 dollars is deciding the difference in 2 of them just doesn't seem right. I think that the reason the USDGC is so successfull b/c the amount of people that get really good money - something no other PDGA event can offer.

I think they just realize that being a touring DG pro is no way to make a living. It is not something you can do well for 20 years and then retire comfortably. Sometime along the way, they have to get a real job and worry about the future.

That has been the problem all along, and will continue to be a problem until there is a viable way for corporate sponsors to realize a reasonable return on investment for supporting a high dollar tour.

There are probably numerous �personal� reasons for each player as to why there are so few true Touring Pros (guys who live on the road, making Disc Golf their primary, if not only profession).

But I would imagine that most of those reasons boil down to this one: Money.

I rank somewhere about the 45th percentile of disc golfers in this country (in terms of ability). But I earn more money in my primary job than any disc golfer in the world does at only disc golf.

Seeing what the top 10 disc golf money winners earned over the last 3-5 years, I�d say only one of them makes more than a living wage (Barry Schultz).

I�m sure there are numerous players who would like to tour full time. But the reality is that most of them have a higher need to earn a living. And touring as a full time Disc Golf pro is not easy when you work 40+ hours Mon-Friday.

Also, another financial factor that might become more prominent in the number of touring pros is the cost of travel associated with the rising cost of fuel. Fewer and fewer players are going to be able to afford to travel all over the country playing disc golf as the cost of gas outstrips their disc golf earnings. Relating to this, I wouldn�t be surprised to see smaller localized turnouts for many tournaments as more-and-more players decide that the cost of gas is too prohibitive to drive to out-of-town tourneys.

This will result in smaller payouts for the guys and gals who are trying to earn a living playing disc golf.

This sport needs a large infusion of non-player-contributed cash sponsorship in order for �full-time touring pro� to become a popular and feasible option for all but a handful (one handful) of players.

When you try to make disc golf your living it takes a lot of the fun out of it.

In my observation the golfers who hold full time jobs during the week (that supply them with the income they need to live) enjoy playing in tournaments more than the touring guys.

The worst on-course behavior I've witnessed has come from the full time touring guys. When a putt goes through the chains and rolls 50 feet away it can frustrate anyone. However when you're depending on your finish in the tournament to pay your expenses it becomes a tragedy and it shows.

I'm sure a couple years of ramen noodles and sleeping on floors would burn you out. The harsh reality is if you could win every tournament you ever entered in a year you might win $50,000 and after you deduct your travel expenses and entry fees you're left with $30,000. You cannot live very comfortably on $30K.
No one to my knowledge has ever won 50K in a year in DG. Very few have ever won more than 15K. So it is a losing financial proposition even for world champions.

...........now if our A-tiers and NTs routinely had $60,000 in sponsored added cash the prospect of touring would make more sense.

I think Ron Russell lived in the back of his pickup truck and toured the country for several years (many years?) doing nothing but playing round after round after round of disc golf. He had a dream of becoming World Champion and did what it took to get there.

But I'm thinking that spending a couple of years living out of the back of a pickup might burn anyone out on the game.

Ron was on tour for 11 years I believe and during most of those years he was in the Discraft RV. Being on the road for that long making that little of money could burn anyone out.

He didn't get into the RV until after he had won a title. It wasn't until 2000 or even 2001. I think he lived out of his truck for two years leading up to his title in 1999.

Is that right?

I believe Ron toured with Gale Vaughn in 95/96 & 97/98 by himself out of the back of his pick up. I believe he got a conversion van from Discraft in 99 which was used for a couple of years or more. Then he traveled a little in the RV.... Whatever he did, even if you could afford to fly and live out of hotels, it would seem to get old.

Yeah those guys who are gutting it out as touring Pros I admire them to some degree.
I mean its cool maybe when your just out of College or whatever. Or in your mid to late twenties.
But personally I would think that when you hit thirty and are still trying to do this you would have to step back and reaccess your Life.

Money is definitely not everything. But frankly when you don't know when your next meal is coming from it does become everything.

Sorry to say but when you can pay Cash straight out for the house you live in , it really really takes a load off your shoulders in Life. It may not in itself bring happiness but it gives you the flexibility and freedom to concentrate on those things that do make you happy !!

I know financial security allows me to play DG every day if I want to.
And I really get to enjoy the game for the pure passion of it and not have to make it drudgery like some Pros probably do.

I guess you have to ask yourself is chasing a dream worth it only to find yourself living in the gutter all the time ??
I will take living in the high life over it each and every day.

As someone who wants to eventually tour full time, and who hopes to tour all next summer this thread is very interesting.

As I'm sure all the current touring pros would say- it's not about the money. Everyone knows that living just off of DG income is very, very tough. But when touring pros aren't touring in the winter months, do they just sit around? Nope. Plus they don't pay taxes(expenses are able to be deducted from income). When a normal person makes 50k, he really makes 35k. Plus Barry's 40k he made in 03? is really a decent bit more when you add in bonuses. Many also have side jobs during the season to make some extra money. So some obviously make enough to get by, even if they may not be living very luxuriously.

Burnout is definitely possible if you tour a lot. In Ron's case 11 years is a long time, plus he was over 40 years old. Cam had been touring full time (35+ events) for a few years.

I guess you have to ask yourself is chasing a dream worth it only to find yourself living in the gutter all the time ??
I will take living in the high life over it each and every day.



wouldn't people living in the gutter be miserable all the time? I've met a lot of them and they don't seem that unhappy to me. Wouldn't they just stop traveling then and get a boring 9-5 job if they were so miserable?

I guess you have to ask yourself is chasing a dream worth it only to find yourself living in the gutter all the time ??
I will take living in the high life over it each and every day.



Then making alot of money means more to you then some people.

Frankly Id rather be broke and happy then rich and miserable any day.

I would trade the 40 grand a year that I make now for 20-25 grand if I could go from working 65 hours a week and driving an hour to and from work every day 6 days a week to working 40 hours a week and no weekends and having a job closer to my house. That would make me happy. Right now im miserable and I make more money then I know what to do with (22 years old living at home) but I would give up 15-20 grand if I could just do something that would make me happy.

Sorry for the thread drift and rant about my life but its seemed relevant.

I guess you have to ask yourself is chasing a dream worth it only to find yourself living in the gutter all the time ??
I will take living in the high life over it each and every day.



wouldn't people living in the gutter be miserable all the time? I've met a lot of them and they don't seem that unhappy to me. Wouldn't they just stop traveling then and get a boring 9-5 job if they were so miserable?

A few years ago I remember playing with Avery Jenkins and I was talking to him about touring and being on the road full time. He told me that he had a place to stay in every state. Knowing that many people with whom he could stay with when traveling through is pretty amazing. That says something about the rewards of traveling that can't be measured.

I guess you have to ask yourself is chasing a dream worth it only to find yourself living in the gutter all the time ??
I will take living in the high life over it each and every day.



Then making alot of money means more to you then some people.

Frankly Id rather be broke and happy then rich and miserable any day.

I would trade the 40 grand a year that I make now for 20-25 grand if I could go from working 65 hours a week and driving an hour to and from work every day 6 days a week to working 40 hours a week and no weekends and having a job closer to my house. That would make me happy. Right now im miserable and I make more money then I know what to do with (22 years old living at home) but I would give up 15-20 grand if I could just do something that would make me happy.

Sorry for the thread drift and rant about my life but its seemed relevant.



yes yes your life is oh so relevant to us all.

Whomever said "Money can't buy you happiness" never had truck-loads of money with which to try and buy some happiness.

"Happiness" may not be for sale, but the toys, experiences, and opportunities that bring about happiness are for sale!

The subject line says it all, and sadly it's TRUE!

There will NEVER be money in this sport until there is CORPORATE INCENTIVE!

I'll continue to tip my hat to those that try, and offer my house and food while they try. I do miss seeing 4 or 5 RV's at the local course come Late Fall, but i can't blame them for throwing in the towel.

Whomever said "Money can't buy you happiness" never had truck-loads of money with which to try and buy some happiness.

"Happiness" may not be for sale, but the toys, experiences, and opportunities that bring about happiness are for sale!



That is absolutely correct but when making that money takes up all your time you never get to enjoy the things you could do or buy with your money :mad:

The point is I would rather be on the road playing disc golf all the time and making it from spot to spot and getting a part time job in the winter then working 65 hours and struggling to make it to tournaments every weekend and struggling to keep everything else together because my job effects everything else.

Sorry for wasting your time Matchu :D

Whomever said "Money can't buy you happiness" never had truck-loads of money with which to try and buy some happiness.

"Happiness" may not be for sale, but the toys, experiences, and opportunities that bring about happiness are for sale!



That is absolutely correct but when making that money takes up all your time you never get to enjoy the things you could do or buy with your money :mad:

The point is I would rather be on the road playing disc golf all the time and making it from spot to spot and getting a part time job in the winter then working 65 hours and struggling to make it to tournaments every weekend and struggling to keep everything else together because my job effects everything else.

Sorry for wasting your time Matchu :D




So, what does the Disc Golf 401k plan look like? How about the disc golf medical/dental plans? Oh wait, maybe the PDGA will come up with some sort of affordable plans. LMFAO! :D

Seriously..........

The point is I would rather be on the road playing disc golf all the time and making it from spot to spot and getting a part time job in the winter then working 65 hours and struggling to make it to tournaments every weekend and struggling to keep everything else together because my job effects everything else.


I don't believe you, pimp.

If that statement were true, you would be touring right now.

I don't believe you, pimp.

If that statement were true, you would be touring right now.



I would be if I didnt owe 15 grand because of the car accident that I got in :mad:

Some of them are in college now . It was cool to see the winnie crews showing up but they are alas dying down. To travel like they did you better love the game and not care about money at all. I dont need to get started on this or ill be typiong all night

The only way that I can see that it is feasible to tour and make a good living is to 1. teach school and tour in the summer or 2. sell real estate or any other commission only job and tour all year (this one being the toughest). I have noticed that about 1/3 of all the people have quit playing :( because of all the drama, money, TD not paying players, etc... list goes on. I love this sport and hope that it continues to grow and I think that it will if people would quit trying to implement new rules etc.. None of these things are bothering me but if you dont have anyone to play against then whats the use in playing events.I would rather play skins casually than to only play against 8 other players, I think that the open division is hurting because of people playing down.

Whomever said "Money can't buy you happiness" never had truck-loads of money with which to try and buy some happiness.

"Happiness" may not be for sale, but the toys, experiences, and opportunities that bring about happiness are for sale!



That is absolutely correct but when making that money takes up all your time you never get to enjoy the things you could do or buy with your money :mad:

The point is I would rather be on the road playing disc golf all the time and making it from spot to spot and getting a part time job in the winter then working 65 hours and struggling to make it to tournaments every weekend and struggling to keep everything else together because my job effects everything else.




Sorry for wasting your time Matchu :D



<font color="red"> dont worry, I have grown used to it. </font> <font color="blue">
did you stop to think that playing disc golf tournaments is taking away your money? You might think of prioritizing, seems to be working for me. My golf game is poor at best, but I do enjoy not living paycheck. </font>

dont worry, I have grown used to it.
did you stop to think that playing disc golf tournaments is taking away your money? You might think of prioritizing, seems to be working for me. My golf game is poor at best, but I do enjoy not living paycheck.



I dont live paycheck to paycheck. I have enough money to play whenever I want and do all the things I want to do. I just dont have any time to do then when im working the 65 hours a week.

I was saying I would rather live paycheck to paycheck and play golf then do what I am doing now.

"I would be if I didnt owe 15 grand because of the car accident that I got in"

you could atleast wait until this statement was on another page or something. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

65 hours a week is not that bad at all btw

Whomever said "Money can't buy you happiness" never had truck-loads of money with which to try and buy some happiness.

"Happiness" may not be for sale, but the toys, experiences, and opportunities that bring about happiness are for sale!



That is absolutely correct but when making that money takes up all your time you never get to enjoy the things you could do or buy with your money :mad:



I seldom work more than 40 hours/week. My typcial schedule has me working 7:30 - 4:30 (lunch at my desk) Mon-Thurs, with a half day on Friday. Every other week, I work 4, 10-hour days, and take Friday off all together. My weekends are always my own.

Ideally, it's nice to have the money AND the time to do with it what pleases you.

Life's about balance --- gotta work to get to play, gotta play to tolerate the work.

"I would be if I didnt owe 15 grand because of the car accident that I got in"

you could atleast wait until this statement was on another page or something.

65 hours a week is not that bad at all btw



It is for me.

I seldom work more than 40 hours/week. My typcial schedule has me working 7:30 - 4:30 (lunch at my desk) Mon-Thurs, with a half day on Friday. Every other week, I work 4, 10-hour days, and take Friday off all together. My weekends are always my own.

Ideally, it's nice to have the money AND the time to do with it what pleases you.

Life's about balance --- gotta work to get to play, gotta play to tolerate the work.



I wish I could find a schedule like that.

Yeah those guys who are gutting it out as touring Pros I admire them to some degree.
I mean its cool maybe when your just out of College or whatever. Or in your mid to late twenties.
But personally I would think that when you hit thirty and are still trying to do this you would have to step back and reaccess your Life.

Money is definitely not everything. But frankly when you don't know when your next meal is coming from it does become everything.

Sorry to say but when you can pay Cash straight out for the house you live in , it really really takes a load off your shoulders in Life. It may not in itself bring happiness but it gives you the flexibility and freedom to concentrate on those things that do make you happy !!

I know financial security allows me to play DG every day if I want to.
And I really get to enjoy the game for the pure passion of it and not have to make it drudgery like some Pros probably do.

I guess you have to ask yourself is chasing a dream worth it only to find yourself living in the gutter all the time ??
I will take living in the high life over it each and every day.

None of the Touring players live in the guTTer!!!!!!!! You need to know any of us b4 you go making stupid unresearched comments like that. :mad:

None of the Touring players live in the guTTer!!!!!!!! You need to know any of us b4 you go making stupid unresearched comments like that. :mad:





True, or is iTT TTrue? TTell us Schweb :D

Whomever said "Money can't buy you happiness" never had truck-loads of money with which to try and buy some happiness.

"Happiness" may not be for sale, but the toys, experiences, and opportunities that bring about happiness are for sale!



That is absolutely correct but when making that money takes up all your time you never get to enjoy the things you could do or buy with your money :mad:

The point is I would rather be on the road playing disc golf all the time and making it from spot to spot and getting a part time job in the winter then working 65 hours and struggling to make it to tournaments every weekend and struggling to keep everything else together because my job effects everything else.




Sorry for wasting your time Matchu :D



<font color="red"> dont worry, I have grown used to it. </font> <font color="blue">
did you stop to think that playing disc golf tournaments is taking away your money? You might think of prioritizing, seems to be working for me. My golf game is poor at best, but I do enjoy not living paycheck. </font>




That's seems sad to me.

You need to understand where we(a lot of young golfers) come from. This is our time to get out and play tournaments and have fun, because soon enough we'll have those strange things called responsibilities that will get in our way.

As Schweb's signature says "Live every day to the fullest".

You have to look at income like this, what does a player make after expences????

I have talked with several touring Pro's in the past. Most have either seasonal jobs, or jobs that can be done temporarly.

What I want to do next year is go on a Texas tour. Play a tournament somewhere ever other weekend. (max 5 hour drive) I am shooting for 2 day tournaments, but may have to settle for more 1 day tournaments. It all depends on how my body holds out and if the current trend in sales and profits holds up at my store.

My goal next year will be to win more than my entry fees back in the Masters division. With a 967 rating, I think I will be OK.

I will be keeping track of my winnings vs expences for the year.

maybe not exactly living there, but a quick google for "gutter" and "PDGA" did find some interesting sites:

http://www.bestofthebay.com/2001/ed_out.html

http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,7068,7485

http://home.no.net/thevens/arkivert1.htm

http://www.gutterrat.com/cgi-bin/apexec.pl?etype=odp&passurl=/Sports/Flying_Discs/Disc_Golf/Associations/

http://www.metrobeat.net/gbase/Expedite/Content?oid=oid%3A507

http://discgolf.vpop.net/Bogus.htm

Quote:
" I guess you have to ask yourself is chasing a dream worth it only to find yourself living in the gutter all the time ??
I will take living in the high life over it each and every day. "

Reply to Quote:
" None of the Touring players live in the guTTer!!!!!!!! You need to know any of us b4 you go making stupid unresearched comments like that. "



Maybe its just a matter of semantics..
I know I read several excerpts from the Winnicrew. I remember that Todd Branch and the others just had a few dollars in their pockets at several documented junctions during the Tour.And wasn't sure how they were going to eat,sleep etc....

I recall where Branch actually had to call his Dad to pay to fix the RV they were driving. And they didn't know where they were going
to get more money to pay for gas and general everyday Living expenses.

It also goes on to say that the Dad the next year had to buy these GROWN and capable men a brand new RV. Sheesh !!

Maybe living in a gutter has different connotations to you. But to me this is concrete, verifiable information that some Pros were definitely living in the "GUTTER" at some point of time on the Tour .

I hope Todd sees that post.


So- your basing your knowledge of touring full time on the winnicrew(2-3 people) updates from 4 years ago,.Wow. Might want to actually talk to some of them before making any more of your brillant judgements.

This whole topic reminds me of what it's like to be an unsigned musician, which I was. Jumping in a van and playing all over the east coast and beyond was a blast to be sure but after a few years the fun starts wearing off, especially when your barely taking in any real profit after expenses. You can't help but start to think about your future and that maybe it's a good idea to call it a day.

I'm sure some of these old golf pro's come to the same conclusion. If big money were there it would be much different. But you can still play golf, and music for that matter for the pure enjoyment of it and go make a some good money another way.

I'd rather play disc golf all the time myself. To that end I hope to purchase enough land one day to build my own **** course!

I completely disagree with Whorley on this topic. We've seen traveling players disappear from the Tour before, including former World Champions. Income can be a factor, but it is definitely not the only reason someone quits touring. Marriage, children, relationships, careers, education and injury (not to mention age) are just a few reasons why some people quit playing the sport all together.

No, the disappearance of Russell and Todd is not a sign there is "something wrong with the sport". Nor would it signal trouble for disc golf if both Barry and Nate quit disc golf altogether. Just look at the record number of active PDGA members and the increasing number of courses being installed each year. Those two stats alone speak volumes about the growth of our sport...not the absence of a select few top rated players on tour.

Well said Jerry.

[QUOTE]
I ... but it is definitely not the only reason someone quits touring. Marriage, children, relationships, careers, education and injury (not to mention age) are just a few reasons why some people quit playing the sport all together. "


Indeed!

Wow, Jerry, now there is a blast from the past.