I'm too lazy to go back and find the most recent incarnation on this topic but wanted to pose a thought. The topic is, with the large number of players and courses in Texas, why aren't Texas players more dominant?

An oft repeated sentiment is that Texas players don't hit the big courses often enough; that we only play the small courses and therefore don't develop the necessary skills.

I'm starting to question this premis. I am currently in SoCal escaping Rita and just picked up a round at Oak Grove. As I was finishing up this course I had a thought, what if the opposite is true? What if the problem is that Texas players are too good at the big game but not good enough at the small technical game where disc golf started. What made me think this was watching the local players at Oak Grove. The guys I watched had great touch. Both back and forehand for drives and putts.

I'm not saying that you need both a backhand and forehand, just that you need the highly polished technical skills that come with playing very tight corridors and making tough putts.

The reality is, at least in Houston, no one playes the tight courses. Mason goes unused for the most part. I know that Pease in Austin gets used, but I wonder how much?

It would be interesting to look and see what ends up killing Texas golfers that play in NTs and Worlds. I wonder if their putting and short game is just not good enough to put them at the top...

It would be interesting to look and see what ends up killing Texas golfers that play in NTs and Worlds. I wonder if their putting and short game is just not good enough to put them at the top...

yeah, lets ask Matt why his game is so putrid! :D

I'm laughing just as hard at you. :D:D

It would be interesting to look and see what ends up killing Texas golfers that play in NTs and Worlds. I wonder if their putting and short game is just not good enough to put them at the top...

yeah, lets ask Matt why his game is so putrid! :D



Or conversely, why it's so good? Or we might even wait and see if he makes the breakthrough to the top level before judging?

What courses does Matt play the most? Test your theory on him. Maybe he's the only one at the tight courses down there.

Thought of that, he plays MacGregor, not really a tight course.

I wonder if the difference isn't right at the top. That is you can get up to the 980 to 1000 range (and we have several of those) but just not break through into the 1010 to 1030 range without that awesome short game. There is another way to test.

Almost every worlds has a mix of big courses and tight ones. How do the Texas Players do on those tight courses? You could even look at score distributions per hole if you knew the courses well enough...

I play tight wooded courses for casual play up here in NY. I do throw fairly far (accurate 450' golf shot) but I learned that on a field, not on the course. In my area we have both big, long wide open courses(for us) and short technical courses.

Most courses do not require a 450+ drive every hole, so while I can throw the technical shots I am happy during a tournament when we get to a hole where I can use distance to my advantage. IMO having both is necessary to be sucessful. Now if only I could make a 20' putt. :(

The advantage we have is that we learn the technical shots on the course, and can learn distance in a field anywhere. Whereas technical shots can not be mastered by throwing in a field, they are learned after your disc shoots 40' off the 15' fairway into deep woods.

You can easily go to a park and practice technical shots. There are very few disc golfers that actually take the advice from the top pros and go practice off a course, though. :)

But I think you are onto something, though, because it is more fun to go to a big field and heave than it is to go to the park and throw through gates or small shrubbery. i.e., if your courses are tight you are more likely to go practice distance.

ok, heres a serious answer Lyle. for any player to be good they must play in as many situations as possible. thats why there are home course wonders you consistently tank when/if they travel to a new course.

there are plenty of "tight" courses in texas. i would say that arizona worlds presented nothing i dont see fairly regularly in texas (except for snow bowl's altitude). even if you dont have a tight course available, all you need to practice tight shots is 2, maybe 3 trees and 100-150 feet.

IF texas players are not making it a big as they should be according to pure percentages (a theory that i do not accept on its surface alone), i suspect it is because of practice habits.

i know for sure the vast majority of players i know would rather go play a local course in a casual round than invest onethird the time in a putting practice routine. bad move, if you are trying to get better.

further, most players also play the same course repeatedly, and end up playing by rote rather than playing thoughfully. again, a bad move.. and particularly inexcusable in a state with large numbers of nearby courses.

someone, i believe it was chuck kennedy, suggesting that our warm climate may be part of the problem because we play rounds all year while the rest of the country gets forced into their garages for putting practice. however, if this were the real cause couldnt we expect to see the same phenomenon occuring with florida, arizona and cali players? there may be something to it, but its not the whole story.

myself, i believe getting better is a matter of practice discipline. that means lots of putts, lots of upshots, and increasing the variety of the courses you play in casual and local mini rounds.

Come play the Shule School. I don't have alot of experience on different courses, but Ingleside is pretty tight except for a couple of holes but you can go high and beat the tightness. If you get out in the Shule it is bad. Rockport should have a course in the near future that is supposed to be tighter. I played a course near Jacksonville Florida that had three tight holes I was useless on. But the rest of the cousre was pretty easy. But I'm just a lowley rec player.

i think texas will make a strong showing at the players cup with guys like dagon, my-hero, nolan grider, and mike olse. (p.s. nolan and mike: still looking for those registration forms from you guys)

While I think you make some excellent points Pat, I'm not sure I agree. What I know about human nature and statistics makes me believe that on average, humans act the same. That is, if they're practicing in NC, then they are most likely practicing in TX. Chuck's theory sits better with me since it takes into account a difference that can't be countered by statistics or human nature, but you already pointed out the flaw there.

The idea that playing conditions are different in terms or course structure fits for me so far, by comparison. I've seen two courses in TX that fit the characteristics of Oak Grove. Pease and Mason. That isn't to say there aren't others, I've never played Dallas, and that is what I am exploring. I know there are many tight technical courses in NC, and the same goes for parts of CA, my question is, have we so developed the long technical course in TX that we've missed something.

Let me begin by explaining the long technical course. Wilmont fits this. The course has long holes that aren't wide open but require a good accurate long drive to have a shot at par or birdy. However, a good drive leaves you an easy up shot and an easy putt, for the most part.

Short technical courses are more like long up shots that are tough off the T with often obscured putts that require versitility in putting style.

As for the Arizona experience, while you didn't see anything you hadn't experienced I would wonder, how were your scores relative to non-TX players? Remember, the difference between the top and where guys like Nolan reside is only a couple of strokes per round. The question is where do those strokes happen?

Finally, let me point out a recent experience. I've gotten very good at the Powell and the Wilmont. I consistently hit in the 56 to 58 range on the Powell and in the 58 to 60 range on the Wilmont. Not great scores but good enough for me. I went out to play on the Huntsville course (Steve DuFrane's course) a month ago, this is a highly technical course, and it ate my lunch. While my drives are highly acurate even in tunnel conditions, I just couldn't get the right positions for this course. Now I'm not the best example, but this experience started me thinking, and I wonder, are we looking down the wrong alley?

As a point of comparison, even when I think about the criticisms heaped on Moffitt, I look at it and relative to the tight courses I've seen, it's long and open.

Alright Pat, prove me wrong or even better inform me...




ok, heres a serious answer Lyle. for any player to be good they must play in as many situations as possible. thats why there are home course wonders you consistently tank when/if they travel to a new course.

there are plenty of "tight" courses in texas. i would say that arizona worlds presented nothing i dont see fairly regularly in texas (except for snow bowl's altitude). even if you dont have a tight course available, all you need to practice tight shots is 2, maybe 3 trees and 100-150 feet.

IF texas players are not making it a big as they should be according to pure percentages (a theory that i do not accept on its surface alone), i suspect it is because of practice habits.

i know for sure the vast majority of players i know would rather go play a local course in a casual round than invest onethird the time in a putting practice routine. bad move, if you are trying to get better.

further, most players also play the same course repeatedly, and end up playing by rote rather than playing thoughfully. again, a bad move.. and particularly inexcusable in a state with large numbers of nearby courses.

someone, i believe it was chuck kennedy, suggesting that our warm climate may be part of the problem because we play rounds all year while the rest of the country gets forced into their garages for putting practice. however, if this were the real cause couldnt we expect to see the same phenomenon occuring with florida, arizona and cali players? there may be something to it, but its not the whole story.

myself, i believe getting better is a matter of practice discipline. that means lots of putts, lots of upshots, and increasing the variety of the courses you play in casual and local mini rounds.

What I know about human nature and statistics makes me believe that on average, humans act the same. That is, if they're practicing in NC, then they are most likely practicing in TX.

i can think of so many dramatic examples of regional differences in behaviour that i believe something as mundane as practice culture could easily vary from state to state. besides, if you grant validity to chuck's weather theory you are by tautology accepting that regional differences in practices habits exist.


As for the Arizona experience, while you didn't see anything you hadn't experienced I would wonder, how were your scores relative to non-TX players?

the only way to make this comparison is to look at final placement versus rank going in. to wit, i finished 14th and was ranked 22nd. of course, generalizing from the specific is risky business so we'd have to do this comparison for all TX players to get any real insight.


Finally, let me point out a recent experience. I've gotten very good at the Powell and the Wilmont. I consistently hit in the 56 to 58 range on the Powell and in the 58 to 60 range on the Wilmont. Not great scores but good enough for me. I went out to play on the Huntsville course (Steve DuFrane's course) a month ago, this is a highly technical course, and it ate my lunch. While my drives are highly acurate even in tunnel conditions, I just couldn't get the right positions for this course. Now I'm not the best example, but this experience started me thinking, and I wonder, are we looking down the wrong alley?

your experience could have many root causes. you'd never seen the course before, so you didnt really know where to land. (you know willy well and have trained to hit the sweet landing spots.) you were in new surroundings and concentration was a factor. being even a little bit off the sweet spot creates the need for a new and/or difficult and/or creative shot. and that brings us precisely back to playing as many different courses as possible. this serves two primary purposes: it prevents playing by rote, and it exposes the player to all kinds of unexpected situations, thereby developing both thinking and shot-making skills.


I've never played Dallas

if you get the chance, please come up! Z-Boas readily holds its own against Thorpe and Little America. its as tight or tighter than either. Auduban stacks up well against NAU. Cedar Hill's Coyote is as tight a course as i've ever played. and those are augmented by a couple dozen more that cover an impressive spectrum of shot-making tests.

there's a little food for thought as i go over to my spreadsheet to compile that comparison of TX ams against the field :)

"Tautology" - Atwood used five syllables. He's smarter than you. :D

IMO, the "course argument" is overrated. We have a lot of different course types throughout the state. We also have plenty of challenging courses throughout the state. We always have.

The practice arguments seem to be more on point. However, I still suspect the answer lies in the critical mass argument. Once an area gets a critical mass of elite golfers, the non-elite golfers get better.

Why?

Well, first off, they have to. Just to keep up. You see it all the time in sports. People raise their level to that of the competition.

Secondly, I suspect that the habits, skills, and techniques of the elites begin to filter down to the non-elites. Either through osmosis or through actual teaching by the elite. If the elite is a good and willing teacher, waalah, all of a sudden, people around them start getting better. It is that way in sports and all other aspects of life: learning from quality teachers increases one's probability of success.

well, i was gonna phrase it "you are tautologically..." but that woulda made mark feel inadequate so irefrained :D

"Tautology" - Atwood used five syllables. He's smarter than you. :D

IMO, the "course argument" is overrated. We have a lot of different course types throughout the state. We also have plenty of challenging courses throughout the state. We always have.

The practice arguments seem to be more on point. However, I still suspect the answer lies in the critical mass argument. Once an area gets a critical mass of elite golfers, the non-elite golfers get better.

Why?

Well, first off, they have to. Just to keep up. You see it all the time in sports. People raise their level to that of the competition.

Secondly, I suspect that the habits, skills, and techniques of the elites begin to filter down to the non-elites. Either through osmosis or through actual teaching by the elite. If the elite is a good and willing teacher, waalah, all of a sudden, people around them start getting better. It is that way in sports and all other aspects of life: learning from quality teachers increases one's probability of success.



If your premis is correct then what is the basis for the jump that CA and NC, for example have? Is it the presence of Innova? I can see the jump in CA due to it acting as the founding place but NC? The same argument can be made due to Innova East and it's impact. On the other hand, we have Houck, Moody, Gordon and many other established long term players; why haven't they driven the same trend here? Is it that you need one or two established "superpros?"

While I think your explanation has merit, I don't understand the differences that would lead to this happening in NC, Wisconsin etc. Do you have any ideas?

As for tautology, isn't that the study of tight buns? Yes, Chuck's theory does suggest a difference in practice, but it gives a reason... other than gee, those guys in TX practice less. I'm willing to accept that we might practice less but I want a good reason for it other than something I would expect to be fairly universal (like our wives/husbands stop us from practicing more so than the wives husbands of people in other states). It has to be logical.

Do all of your top Texas players routinely play together? I think the "critical mass" theory is the best explanation. Texas has a crap load of courses and double crap load of square miles. The tons o' Texas players are really spread out and there are seemingly thousands of tournaments for them to choose from.

But do the top pros regularly and consistently play against each other?

I know that in NorCal, the wunderkids come from the DeLa and Grass Valley concentrations of super-pros, and that the top dogs are contantly duking it out in the NorCal series.

In San Diego they crank out and what seems like an inordinately high number of top-level players for basically only having one course forever. But every single one of those top guys, and all the new up-and-comers, are coming out of basically the same core group. (As I see it, "Snapper and friends" pretty much spawned the "new kids" scene of Micah/Carlo/Jarvii/etc, and that crew [without much Jarvii action anymore] is spawning the next gen crew. Even if the egos conflict, the connection is there.)

I'd bet you can trace the L.A./O.C. lineage similarly.

It seems to me that having the top dogs duking it out constantly is the key to raising the bar and making whole crops of new top players. I'm pretty sure N.C. is like this, although I don't know for sure. There are going be natural's who rise to the top from a big population like Texas, but are the top dogs making a point of traveling to try and box each other's ears every tourney? I think that would be a good thing to research and report on. :)

I think Rhett is on the right track. Good players generate more good players, but those players have to be in competition with other often for the effect to take place.

If you know there are a couple of guys that are generally better than you competing, are you going to look for somehwere else to play, or are you going to step it up and beat them. If you don't have much choice in where to play, you are stuck with stepping up or going home.

Our top guys from around the state see each other 5 or 6 times a year ?

Now that's a theory I can buy!

Let's counter it with the Austin Scene, the Dallas Scene, and the Houston Scene. Each of these is a microcosm (say Nor Cal, SoCal, and SD). Why would you speculate that those areas don't generate the kinds of intense competition you are talking about. I will throw in that, at least Moffitt, shows the kind of volume that allows the head to head competition.

Who are the top dogs, and are the other good players required to play against them on a weekly basis ?

I'd have to look at the reports from the past tournaments, but I don't think that the top dogs in Dallas compete with each other at every event. And what is needed more is the casual competition and practice that should be happening between tournaments. Getting a group of really good players playing against each other several times a week.

I don't know if that's the case with OK boys, but it seems that they travel together a lot. I would think that they play together quite a bit.

i don't know if that's the case with OK boys, but it seems that they travel together a lot. I would think that they play together quite a bit.



Good point, but OK has three hot spots. Stillwater, Tulsa, OKC.....what 2 hours at most between cities? Easy to do.

Getting DFW, Austin/LiveOak, Houston, Corpus, or Lubbock together......ouch! :D

Just proof that we should be split into 5 different states (regions).

OK has had good players for a LONG time. those guys have to compete together all the time.

And they still come to texas and take our money. Just look at the Carrollton Open this year.

It sounds like what we need, if we buy Rhett's theory, is head to head with the top guys. Have to think about that but I'm already comming up with some ideas.

Does anyone have some notions on how to get the top guns from each region hitting eachother once or twice a week for a serious round? How could we drive this if we believe it's really true?

If you need someone hit I am your man.

I've thinking about this, and think it has more to do with a few really good players and an opportunity to teach/groom some up and coming players with natural talent. If the better players invest the time and effort required to develop the new player(s) their game will improve also. You have to learn any topic better to be able to explain it to someone else, and some of the time when you are explaining something to someone else, you will say something that teaches yourself something new about it.

while the direction of the discussion has merit, there is something you all are missing.

texas is a big state, but so what! the DeLa/NoCal core represents a far smaller geography than texas. it is more in line with one of the TX metro areas. what i mean is that the DFW, Austin, and Houston spheres of influence are individually about the same size as another other significant core in the country.

splitting the state into 5 "substates" does not, in and of itself, do anything because it does not bring new good players into a substate.

getting top players to play against each other more regularly might... but distance becomes a factor.

'll totally buy into the success breed success theory.

lyle - weather is a valid reason that practice habits vary.

At this point, Austin is about to become another suburb of Houston. Spliting Texas anymore than was done when we joined the U.S.A. is an improbability.

_____________
UNBAN MITCH

WTF (is that allowed?) does that mean? Austin is a far cry from Houston.

Brenham currently isn't far from the Houston sprawl, and Austin is creeping out toward Elgin so he ain't that far off.

I was born and raised in Houston. I got out as soon as possible and found Austin to be heaven but, after 26 years here I find it has become more like Houston everyday. When you drive from here to Houston the country side is harder to find with all the sprawl still occuring. It's as if Houston is reaching out to engulf the whole state. I really appreciate all the discgolfers in Houston (great people and great golfers) but, I wish all the sprawl to stop before we really do become another suburb of Houston.

Have you ever driven from DC to Boston ?