I played a course in Evansville yesterday and the par for 18 holes was 70. I played badly but was -5 and this bothers me. I'm not that good and I should not be able to play badly and be 5 under.

The course basically followed the PDGA course design standard with holes under 200' par 3's, from 200-280 par 4's and over 280 par 5's.

I played another course like this and was -13 after 12 holes when I had to quit because of a thunderstorm.

I just think this is too easy. Par 5 for 300'??

Now some people tell me that the PDGA doesn't care about par. It's just for rec players etc.... But it matters to me and the people I play with. And if you are going to set a par it should matter to everyone.

I understand that you don't want to make par impossible for the average player. But it should require an average player to play well.

What would you think about making under 280 a par 3, 280 to 400 a 4 and over 400 a 5?

Next time play it with mini markers. PDGA par assumes you are marking with modern long distance drivers and throwing your mini.

Just play every hole as a 3...
Another thing, is just play for the lowest score ignoring the course par scores all together.

I could play every hole as a 3. But I shouldn't have to. The pars should be reasonable.

But... I guess I'll just have to be content with telling myself there are hard courses and easy courses and that's ok.

Anything over 280 is a par 5????

Dude I 2'd a 490 foot hole today in a tournament and I know of at least 3 more people that did it.

<<<<<<<<Anything over 280 is a par 5????
Dude I 2'd a 490 foot hole today in a tournament and I know of at least 3 more people that did it.>>>>>>>>

I hear ya man. But check this out from the PDGA course design standards...

"Par on each hole is primarily for recreational players using the short tees. Total par should range from about 68-75 on an 18-hole course. Many holes should be par 4s. A hole up to 200 feet (60m) is at least a par 3; from 200-280 feet (60-85m) is a par 4; from 280-400 feet (85-125m) is a par 5. (Add 1 to par for every additional 150 feet (45m) if needed.) Adjust par on a hole up or down if it has a significant upslope or downslope, respectively. Since it's easier to keep score in your head, advanced and expert players usually play all holes as par 3s (even if they rarely score 3 on long holes)."

That's what this course in Evansville based it's par on. Now I wouldn't get a 2 on a 490' at this stage in the development of my game. But if you make a 285 foot hole a par 5 I will often get a 3 on it and I'd have a chance at a 2.

People go out and play this course and others like it and think they are doing well when they finish under par and they conclude the game is easy because heck, they have only played a few times and they are able to break par.

Maybe my concern is misplaced. But I just think par should be a challenge for the average player. maybe say that under 280 is a 3 and 280-400 is a 4 and over 400 is a 5. I dunno. Par shouldn't impossible for an average player -which is what I essentially am- but it shouldnt be easy either.

Now in other ways this course in Evansville was terrific. They have a basket at the beginning where you can practice putting and a net with circles painted on it for you to practice your drives.

They have really gone the extra mile to make it a nice place to play.

I mean I didn't mean to sound like a dick or anything - I mean I'm a pro and I'm gonna have different expectations than you.

You should just out to a course and just try to have a good time - that's what we all do. Too many people (including myself) sometimes take this way too seriously.

I didn't take what you said as impolite. I thought you were agreeing withy me that the par was too high for such short hole LOLOL.

There are several long threads on the subject of setting par.

Search through them and you will see that you are not alone in your concern that "par" shouldn't be that easy to acheive.

That old par guideline was not based on current disc technology and was intended for Rec players. If you look at the other document for four skill level course guides, it has a more updated par guideline.
www.pdga.com/documents/2004/PDGAGuides2004.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2004/PDGAGuides2004.pdf)

That's interesting..... 550 seems a bit long for par 3 but I guess I can't expect my game to the basis for par LOLOLOL.

Thanks Chuck....

Check out the thread called What is Par? (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Ratings&Number=62882&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=) for over 1000 posts on this subject. After studying, researching, and writing about par for the last 2-3 years I've concluded that the PDGA doesn't really care about a universal standard for par. At this time par is determined by "every person does whatever seems right in his/her own eyes".

Lowe, I think that's rather cynical considering I referenced a PDGA document providing par guidelines.

Well, I am reading thru that thread. But just on simple philosophy, I notice something I disagree with.

There seems to be a tendency to define par by what pros average on a given hole. But pros should regularly break par.

If you look at ball golf most holes can be parred by your average weekend golfer. In fact most can be birdied by your average weekend golfer. They just lack the consistency that a pro would have.

Sooo, I think making a 550 foot hole in disc golf a par 3 is a bit of a stretch. I think a 4 or 5 would be more appropriate.

I actually would take the PDGA course design standard I noted earlier and just shift everything over one column. Make under 280 a par 3, 280-400 a par 4 and over 400 a par 5.

Having said that, I guess I can accept that some courses are just going to be easy while others are hard. :-)

Will,
I think your numbers for par distance parameters would work great . . . if we played with pickle bucket lids.

former golfer scottie hinchee once shot 5 under par (54) at pohick bay in virginia with a drywall lid.

pohick is an antique course from the 70's. extremely tight but only a few holes over 200 and probably only one over 250. even though the course is so short there are still only 2-3 holes i would go so far as to call par 2 due to the narrow fairways. (1,4,5 come to mind).

Denny, what I am suggesting is making par tougher to achieve than it is at some courses. I guess it could be made tougher still.

But let me ask you this... Do you think par should acheiveable by a good rec player if he/she plays well? Or should it be set low enough that only a pro could manage it?

I think it should be acheiveable by rec players, but I don't think it should be as easy as it is at some courses now. Pros should play under par.

You take any pro ball-golfer to a community ball-golf course and he will likely crush it. What pros can do should not determine where par is set.

in golf "par" is what a scratch golfer would take to get to a green plus two putts. "scratch" is defined as the top half of the u.s. amateur field.

in disc golf the equivalent of "scratch" is a 1000 rated player, which corresponds to the cash cut line at pro worlds.

i do not think that rec players should shoot "par" from the pro tees. i do believe that muliple sets of tees make a course fun and challenging for a variety of skill levels and are possible in most parks.

if you say a "pro" should shoot under par and you're referring to a 1030+ rated player then i'd agree. if a 1000 rated player is shooting -8, then the course is too easy relative to par. most current disc golf courses fit into this category.

I wouldn't have any problem with using the Am's SSA to set par.

It is a shame that the actual par isnt listed on the tee signs and scorecards by the course designers when the course is installed.
It is better to have an inflated rec par than have an old school guy tell a newbie " hey Man we play everything par 3 dude"

This reminds me of a funny story form this years Gateway open.
We recently redesigned Creve Coeur lake into a par 68-70.
I saw a guy who was just finishing and asked him what he thought of the course.
He replied " It Suc$ed"!
I asked why and he said he couldnt reach most of the holes and that the pins were tucked in between and behind trees.
I told him that par was 68 and he said " not for me. I play everything par 3" also telling me he was a pro and has played all over the world and " always plays everything as par 3"
So Iasked him what he shot and he said 15 over.
I replied with so you shot 1 over and he said no 15 over.

I told him we were having an event and if he could shoot 69 he would be very competitive.
Well he showed up for the evnt and tried to play am 2.
I said wow, you shot a 69, thats a pro score and concinced him to at least play advanced.
Well to make a long story short, he played the event and shot a 71 and a 72, but after the event he said that by playing the course as a par 68 he reallty enjoyed the course and the event.
There is a great big lesson to learn here about par and one we hope to instill over the next few years as we began our quest to become the # company in course design and installation.

The age old philosphy of calling everything a par 3 just to make it simple has been very detrimental to the development of the game, especially for new players.
Besides making these players frustrated it is also an attack on their intelligence, basically telling disc golfers they are too stupid to actually figure out what par is and play the course accordingly.
"Hey your to dumb to figure out the par or the course designer was and you should just play everything as par 3 and shoot 19 over and be happy about it"
Wrong!
Noe one is happy about playing a 1000 foot hole as par 3, its insane to think its not a problem.

I think a lot of the problem with courses and par lies on the basket manufactures.
More times than not we see or hear about a new course go in that it is not designed properly, usually with poor signage and most of the time there are no scorecards at the courses.
Ed Headrick was really on to something when he was trying to regulate the way course were being installed, by insisting on approved course designers.
But once "others" started making and selling baskets with no regards to how the course were actually being installed, [I'm a potty-mouth!] has really hit the fan.
Sure theres a lot of great courses going in, but for every good one theres 2 that are not done professionally.

Would it be too far out of line for the pdga to approve new and existing course designs in order for future events to be sanctioned?

In my opinion the pdga should pay more attention to new and existing courses and less time trying to raise money for pro players to Jam in their pocket.




BTW, very few rec ball golfers par more than a couple holes a round and even less ever birdie. The average score for a rec ball golfer is around 20-30 over, that is if if they even count all their strokes and play by all the rules.

Would it be too far out of line for the pdga to approve new and existing course designs in order for future events to be sanctioned?



I think that may happen down the road but the first step is to get a lot more courses evaluated with new PDGA Course Evaluation program. The data collected will help determine any future standards. Hopefully, everyone will be encouraging and working with their State Coordinators to get their course evaluated.

Hopefully, everyone will be encouraging and working with their State Coordinators...

I'm not encouraging and working with nobody. I'm forming an entirely new organization called Golf United Disc. I've already got a website going that you can't use. -- Wait, maybe someone has this angle covered. :D

well put, dave!

I agree with erverything you said Dave. I would make one comment on this...

"BTW, very few rec ball golfers par more than a couple holes a round and even less ever birdie. The average score for a rec ball golfer is around 20-30 over, that is if if they even count all their strokes and play by all the rules."

While rec ball golfers may shoot 20-30 over par they are capable of getting a birdie on almost any hole. I got a birdie the first time I ever played ball golf and I SUCK at it.

Rec ball golfers shoot 20 or 30 over par because they are horribly inconsistent. They hit it into the trees, then hit it into the fairway and mishit the next shot etc.

A question... I played Jefferson Barracks in St. Louis back in August and stopped by a Gateway Disc Sports store. Is that your store?

rec golfers rarely get birdies and when they do it's mostly luck.

rec disc golfers make "birdies" fairly frequently by throwing good shots on holes that are too easy.