The National Tour concept needs work. The stated objective of showcasing the Open divisions is not in itself a bad one, but the extent to which the other divisions are discriminated against is insulting and unnecessary. The second-class status of older divisions is justified by three very interesting pieces of mythology that appear to have become generally accepted, at least by those who make policy. I feel that this is regrettable and not consistent with what we would like to accomplish as a family.

Myth #1) Older players are not �real� professionals because a) we don�t expect to make our living at the game, b) we may not have ratings over 955, and/or c) we do not have truly professional attitudes.

This one is the most insulting, because it suggests that there is something silly or shameful about saying �I�m a professional and I play for money� if you are over 50. Most of us approach the game with the same degree of dedication, enthusiasm and integrity as the best of the Open players. As far as the money is concerned, the major difference is that Open players would like to be able to make their living by playing. We have already made our livings doing other things, and would be content to be able to meet our expenses.

Myth #2) The majority of the prize money results from the excitement generated by the Open pros. Older players should feel honored just to be allowed to play in events they play in, and should be satisfied with significantly lower payouts.

This is the most divisive attitude, as it portrays older players as ungrateful parasites. Let�s look more closely. When the Open pros can capture the imagination of the country, as did Francis Ouimet, Bobby Jones and Tiger Woods in ball golf, million dollar paydays will follow for them without much effort from the rest of us. At this point however, they have only captured the imagination of much of the disc golf community. Most of the prize money comes from entry fees, PDGA support and donations from disc manufacturers. This part comes ultimately from ALL of us (including amateurs), as we enter events, pay dues and buy discs. The rest comes from backbreaking, thankless and largely uncompensated efforts of tournament directors and local club members, many of whom are over 50. The Open pros do provide a focus for much of this effort, and that is certainly valuable. But older players are not incapable of generating excitement. Six of the thirty-two Innova Team Champion members are over 50; two of these are over 55 and one is over 60. Finally, older folks have had more time to develop a valuable skill set (let�s call it �knowing how to get things done�) that should not be discounted.

Myth #3) Older players do not care to tour, and would not attend elite events in significant numbers.

This may have been true five years ago, but not now. Look at the number of over-50 players in large events from out-of-state. Look in particular at Pro Worlds registrations the last three years, and most especially pre-registration this year. Older players already tour in significant numbers, and make up the most rapidly growing segment of the professional community.

It would not be difficult to create a top-notch Tour which all of us would be proud to support. There are two reasonable solutions. The first, which I prefer because it keeps us together as a family, is to make National Tour events first class for everyone. Payouts for Open players could remain open-ended at the top, but for other divisions it should be at least better than A-Tier. At the same time, entry fees for all players should be the same � these are elite events and there is no reason why older players should be able to attend on the cheap. If necessary, a registration cap could be placed on older divisions.
If changes like those suggested above are not made in the National Tour, then something needs to be done for the rest of us. We could restrict the National Tour to Open players, but allow parallel events for other divisions. In this case distance protection for NT events would only apply to the Open divisions, so events for all other divisions could be run anywhere on the same weekend. These other events should be fully promoted and supported by the PDGA. This solution is less desirable because it is divisive, evoking as it does the �separate but equal� philosophy of the segregation era.

Senior Tour, Pete. Masters and up. Same for the Worlds.
Build it and they will come.

On one hand I agree with you in a way.

However, the Open Pro division should be showcased at any tournament. I truely don't think sponsorship money should be added to the Masters division. At most 10--25% of the added cash.

And yes, I am a masters player and will never look back.

I also support the lower entry fees albet it may now be too low for a 2 day event.

The NT format is determined by the NT Committee which is comprised mainly of NT TDs. They are deciding how to apply the sponsorship money they raise and the profits they make on amateur entry fees at the similarly named A-tier. If someone wants to spend their money on one group of players rather than another, I'd think that is their business.

How bout having one of those drug companies sponsor the Masters divisions at all NTs?

The Cialis Masters Tour. Take one and you won't putt low all weekend.

Some responses:

To Tom: There already is a "Senior Tour". Virtually every major this season has had a Grandmaster division. The Senior Grandmasters have organized to facilitate touring, and will have divisions in at least half a dozen NT's and several A-Tiers. Any Grandmasters who would like to know what majors are likely to offer them a fair deal should contact me.

If you are talking about a separate tour, I would only consider that as a last resort. I love being part of the extended PDGA family, and there are many good reasons why we should all try to work together, rather than splinter and end up competing with each other.

To Bruce: I'd agree completely that clubs should be able to do as they please if the resources they were using were entirely internally generated. But as I noted in my original post, much of those resources derive, ultimately, from all of us. Even so I agree with you conditionally. For example, the NT Committee voted this year that NT's could offer B-Tier payouts to age protected divisions if they feel like it. I would support this policy if:
1) They were absolutely up front about it. Any NT that wants to discriminate in this way should clearly indicate this well in advance, so we don't end up going to the wrong tournaments. We don't want to go where we are not wanted, and it doesn't make sense for us to tour for B-Tier payouts.
2) Parallel opportunity were created for the rest of us. If an NT wants to give some divisions second class status, it should lose distance protection for those divisions. The PDGA should encourage other clubs to run first class events for those divisions, even if they are nearby and on the same weekend.

To Bryan: I agree that Open players should be showcased. I am on record (latest issue of Disc Golf World) supporting a model in which over 200 Open players could win an average of $50,000 a year. I could work hard for an NT concept that would give Open players far better than first class treatment, as long as it would not treat the rest of us as second class citizens.

To Bruce: I'd agree completely that clubs should be able to do as they please if the resources they were using were entirely internally generated. But as I noted in my original post, much of those resources derive, ultimately, from all of us. Even so I agree with you conditionally. For example, the NT Committee voted this year that NT's could offer B-Tier payouts to age protected divisions if they feel like it. I would support this policy if:
1) They were absolutely up front about it. Any NT that wants to discriminate in this way should clearly indicate this well in advance, so we don't end up going to the wrong tournaments. We don't want to go where we are not wanted, and it doesn't make sense for us to tour for B-Tier payouts.
2) Parallel opportunity were created for the rest of us. If an NT wants to give some divisions second class status, it should lose distance protection for those divisions. The PDGA should encourage other clubs to run first class events for those divisions, even if they are nearby and on the same weekend.


Responding to those three points in order, first, what the PDGA spends on the NT is balanced by what it collects in NT player fees. So it is really the NT players who are paying for what the PDGA is spending on the NT.

Second, they were up front about it. If you read the 2006 tour standards document it says 125% minimum payout for Open Men and Open Women and 100% payout for other divisions at NTs. That's a D-tier payout, by the way, not a B-tier. :eek: This was one of those little noticed changes for 2006. It's not my ox, so it is not one that I highlighted previously.

Third, everyone who wants opportunity has to step up and grab some. A few years ago Jon and I got tired of playing crappy events for amateurs where 1/3rd of amateur entry fees was being shoveled to the pros and 1/3rd was being spent on tournament expenses. So we started running "NTs for Amateurs." We do 150% to 175% payout for amateurs and 100% payout for pros. We had 203 players at our last tournament. :D

Grabbing parity for old men is going to be tough sledding. The PGA Masters was based on the fact that aging golfers wanted to see some of their aging favorites compete, like Arnold Palmer and Lee Trevino. Ditto the Senior Tennis thing, but they overestimated how much anyone wants to see old tennis players. We only pretend to like tennis so that we can watch chicks in short skirts. Volleyball is killing tennis now that they do that almost naked olympic women's volleyball thing!

No one wants to see disc golfers compete. If it weren't for the Dave and Harold's vanity, there would be no money in this game at all.

[Props to the PDGA for putting the payout %s back in the TD report. Why not report that on-line so players can see what events they ought to be playing? Props to Oldman and Vinnie for grabbing some parity for women!]

The National Tour should only allow MPO and FPO divisions to play on that weekend. If the TDs want to allow other divisions, they should have a separate weekend like how the big tourneys have am and pro weekends. Only they could offer the age protected pro divisons on the "am" weekend.

That will result in bigger Open division fields for the NT events, which is what the whole NT thing is supposed to showcase.

At this point in our development: little sponsorship, little main stream recognition, divisional squabbling, and lack of any official membership option but for profit competition, I don't see any reason to promote the Open division any more than any other division.

As someone pointed out, if anyone was interested in paying to see any of the Open players play then certainly those dollars should, and naturally would go towards supporting those players.

But no one is.

So as someone who has raise significant sponsorship for events I am going to make sure that that sponsorship A) goes to promoting the participation of all players and B) goes to promoting the divisions that I, the sponsor, decide the sponsorship should go towards.

Now if I sign on to run a NT event, I will abide fully with the requirements. If I can't, I won't run one.

I am not sure that I can empathize with Peter in any way. I have not read the NT format writing, but I'm guessing from Peter's post that the payout structure favors the Open pool over those of the Masters on up. The reality is why should I care? In point of fact, it is the Amature player who keeps the whole thing moving forward and the reality that all the Pro divisions leach off the top doesn't change that. The fact that the Open class outleaches the Masters or GrandMasters seems irrelavant to me. The plain and simple fact is that nothing I've seen or read suggests that the current structure is what's best for the sport.

The reality is that the PDGAs focus on the Pro is based, at least in part, on a survey done some years ago where the membership (those who participated) voted that the focus of the PDGA should be on the growth of the Pro game. That the PDGA feels the best way to do that, is to promote the Open division should surprise no one.

The reality is that if you are going to grow the money in the sport (that is what we're talking about here) you are going to get it in one of two ways. Growing a fan base, or cache. In either case, you're talking about the Open pool.

Fan Base - While senior sports do draw some audience, there is no question that in every major sport that catches the public eye, people are watching the young players in their prime. At 45 I can wish that they'd rather watch me than Nate Doss, but I know better. This might be insulting, but it is reality.

Cache - You can grow money in sports that don't have a fan base if the sport has cache. Even if you don't watch or play, being associated with such a "sport" is "cool." I don't know too many 15 to 30 somethings that think that anything anyone over 40 does is cool. Don't fool yourselves, those are the people out there spending the money we're talking about here. Yes there is a lot in the 40 to 60 range but it just isn't spent in the same way.

While a PDGA preference for the Open pool might be rude, it is based in the obvious realities of our society, like it or not.

On the other hand, if we can convince the snow birds/baby boomers that they should support disc golf and build a fan base there (keep in mind this group is not know for having those kinds of spending habits) then we're golden. We can double the Masters payout and put those punks in the Open division where they belong! :)

As for myself, the more I read what Bruce writes, the more I'm thinking I'm voting for him when Theo quits and he runs for Commissioner...

Grabbing parity for old men is going to be tough sledding. The PGA Masters was based on the fact that aging golfers wanted to see some of their aging favorites compete, like Arnold Palmer and Lee Trevino. Ditto the Senior Tennis thing, but they overestimated how much anyone wants to see old tennis players. We only pretend to like tennis so that we can watch chicks in short skirts.



Bruce tries to be funny, but he does not speak for all of us. In fact, his above quote seems unfounded.

I enjoy watching the PGA seniors as well as most PDGA Masters and GrandMasters. They have experience. They have perspective. Serious players can learn things from them. They also present a more professional demeanor than many younger players. While they might not look good in Speedos, they lend a sense of style and substance to the face of disc golf.

FYI:
This weekend's Standing Rocks Open B-Tier drew 14 Pro GrandMasters. Payouts were good: 6 players cashed for a total of nearly $620. Two of them were from Iowa; so yes, they do travel - even for a B-Tier.

Question: if tens of thousands of folks watch the Senior LPGA on CBS on a Saturday afternoon, why would you assume they will not watch an NT disc golf event?

Rhett, you're assuming more Open players would travel to more NT events. Maybe when sponsorship picks up....

Also, grouping age-protected pro divisions with Am divisions sounds practical, but reiterates the insulting tone Peter spoke of (IMHO).

The National Tour should only allow MPO and FPO divisions to play on that weekend. If the TDs want to allow other divisions, they should have a separate weekend like how the big tourneys have am and pro weekends. Only they could offer the age protected pro divisons on the "am" weekend.

That will result in bigger Open division fields for the NT events, which is what the whole NT thing is supposed to showcase.



WORD!!!!

Grabbing parity for old men is going to be tough sledding. The PGA Masters was based on the fact that aging golfers wanted to see some of their aging favorites compete, like Arnold Palmer and Lee Trevino. Ditto the Senior Tennis thing, but they overestimated how much anyone wants to see old tennis players. We only pretend to like tennis so that we can watch chicks in short skirts.

Bruce tries to be funny, but he does not speak for all of us.

I thought Jim and I weren't responding to each other. Anyway, if Jim doesn't like to watch chicks in short skirts, my apologies. I didn't know. :o

As to the Standing Rocks thing, I don't think Mr. Shive would be too impressed with that payout. In fact, that's exactly what he was complaining about. 14 Grand Masters paid $45 each for $630 in the pot. They were paid $622. And its a B-tier. Same event 54 Open players paid $75 each for $4050 in the pot and got back $4506. Looks like the Grandmasters' 10% added got added to Open. :eek: Actually, they got their 10% added but it was offset by PDGA and series fees.

Anyway, the solution is not to have the PDGA impose a different format on Wisconsin B-tiers or the NT. If it suits their purposes to put the added cash in the Open division, it is their tournament. The solution is for people who want a different kind of tournament to use the flexibility of our current format to run a different kind of tournament.

Grabbing parity for old men is going to be tough sledding. The PGA Masters was based on the fact that aging golfers wanted to see some of their aging favorites compete, like Arnold Palmer and Lee Trevino. Ditto the Senior Tennis thing, but they overestimated how much anyone wants to see old tennis players. We only pretend to like tennis so that we can watch chicks in short skirts.



Bruce tries to be funny, but he does not speak for all of us. In fact, his above quote seems unfounded.

I enjoy watching the PGA seniors as well as most PDGA Masters and GrandMasters. They have experience. They have perspective. Serious players can learn things from them. They also present a more professional demeanor than many younger players. While they might not look good in Speedos, they lend a sense of style and substance to the face of disc golf.

FYI:
This weekend's Standing Rocks Open B-Tier drew 14 Pro GrandMasters. Payouts were good: 6 players cashed for a total of nearly $620. Two of them were from Iowa; so yes, they do travel - even for a B-Tier.

Question: if tens of thousands of folks watch the Senior LPGA on CBS on a Saturday afternoon, why would you assume they will not watch an NT disc golf event?



You're right, Bruce doesn't speak for everyone, however, in this he has a clearer understanding of reality. You can like the seniors all you want, and there is a market there, but it is significantly less than the market for players in their prime. All of the wishful thinking in the world won't change that.

Rhett, you're assuming more Open players would travel to more NT events. Maybe when sponsorship picks up....


That is the exact opposite of what I am assuming.

By splitting the weekends I am assuming that many of the higher rated ams and age protected pros would play the tournament in the MPO and FPO divisions because there wouldn't be another division to choose instead, thus making the open division fields larger.

Anyway, if Jim doesn't like to watch chicks in short skirts, my apologies. I didn't know. :o



You certainly are a cute little spin doctor, aren't you?


...the solution is not to have the PDGA impose a different format on Wisconsin B-tiers or the NT.



Who suggested this?

If it suits their purposes to put the added cash in the Open division, it is their tournament. The solution is for people who want a different kind of tournament to use the flexibility of our current format to run a different kind of tournament.

exactly right! the most important objective for events should be to enable them, not dictate their terms. at this point the only thing we know for sure is that different areas have different winning formulas. we should nurture and encourage all the creativity there is out there.

All "Players of Age" that don't feel they are getting the respect they deserve should make sure they make it to the only PDGA Major that is dedicated to the elderly: The U.S. Masters Championships held in La Mirada, SoCal, in September.

We don't let the young 'uns play, although they are allowed to help.

Am divisions are offered, too, so start making plans to come on out for a visit when our weather is the best and most of the tourists have already gone home.

The Masters at Idlewild (http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=5617) is another great tournament devoted to Masters this year and will be June 10th and 11th.
PDGA 'XB' tier ... amateur and pro divisions offered ... Burlington, KY (greater Cincinnati area)

Watching Masters take on the challenging pro-par 72 Idlewild course should be a treat...