In a practice round this morning, my disc landed and slid under a boulder with a gap under it in the fairway . It was about 12" in and there was about 4" between the the rock and the ground at that point. Since I can't get a foot in there for my stance, do I...
A. Take my stance ON the rock. (18" above where the disc actually landed) I don't know if the 30cm line has a vertical plane like an OB line does.
B. Stand behind the rock in line with the line of play

The closest rule I could find was 803.04E which addresses obstacles that prevent you from standing within 30cm behind the marker (or thrown disc itself?)

I'd be fine with either if you were playing in my group. One could argue, in light of the definition of playing surface, that you cannot stand on the rock. But you could stand behind the rock under the large solid obstacle rule.

but if the disc landed ON the rock, the rock would be the playing surface,right??

I think the rule of verticality would allow you to play on top of the rock with no penalty only if the rock surface was within 18" of the disc.

The rule is quite simply explained in 803.4.

E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

Oh ya, and for you Americans, 12 inches = 30 cm!

803.5C2
Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player�s lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in accordance with 803.06.



Which rule trumps which? I guess it depends on the definition of "casual obstacle", which I don't really find.

803.5C2
Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player�s lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in accordance with 803.06.



Which rule trumps which? I guess it depends on the definition of "casual obstacle", which I don't really find.



In this case it sounds like the rock was at least partly between the lie and the hole so moving the rock is not an option anyway and the you must play from behind it within 5m and on the LOP.

but 803.4 says "immediately behind the obstacle", not the 5m option. Cap'n, you've given both citations now...as have I, but I'm looking for the answer, not trying to give one. It can only be one way, correct??

803.5C states that you may take up to 5 meters of casual relief, however, lieing under a stone is not one of the items called out as allowed for under casual relief (unless the TD called it as one). I would suggest that since it is not specifically called out, that you get a majority ruling as per 803.5D. If the majority will not allow for casual relief, then you have no choice but to declare it as an unplayable lie, take up to 5 meters relief and a stroke (803.6). This is all predicated upon being unable to stand on the rock above the disc. There is a similar question under the Q&A section called "Disc below the playing surface" For the most part the Rules Committee states that the TD should call this one before hand. If not then you go to majority rule.


In a practice round this morning, my disc landed and slid under a boulder with a gap under it in the fairway . It was about 12" in and there was about 4" between the the rock and the ground at that point. Since I can't get a foot in there for my stance, do I...
A. Take my stance ON the rock. (18" above where the disc actually landed) I don't know if the 30cm line has a vertical plane like an OB line does.
B. Stand behind the rock in line with the line of play

The closest rule I could find was 803.04E which addresses obstacles that prevent you from standing within 30cm behind the marker (or thrown disc itself?)

Directly behind your lie.

In any case, I would imagine a boulder large enough to cause this question would be a permanent part of the course, and not a casual obstacle.

I did go back and re-read the intention behind the "casual" rule, so yes, but still, Cap'nCrunch did cite both ways as the fact, and that further confused me...I'm asking Q's to understand, not raise hell.

I agree. A boulder would be a permanent obstacle. As such, I would treat it as something that prohibited a legal stance. So you would take a stance directly behind the boulder as per 803.04E.

12" in and a 4" gap, I'd say wiggle your foot under the rock a little. It sounds like you could get your foot 10cm behind your disc.

Otherwise, in a casual round, put you foot behind the rock and throw. In a sanctioned tourney, group decision, and I'd say put your toes under the rock and call it good.

My bad. I didn't mean to confuse things. I knew what I meant but quoted the wrong thing. Happens to me all the time. :o

I agree. A boulder would be a permanent obstacle. As such, I would treat it as something that prohibited a legal stance. So you would take a stance directly behind the boulder as per 803.04E.



I agree with this, but rereading 803.04E leaves me to believe that no penality stroke would be assessed, which is at odds with 803.06, unless you first attempt to have a maority vote as per 803.05C(2)

There is no penalty when taking the lie directly behind the object.

In my opinion, a large boulder is NOT a casual obstacle, so the casual obstacle relief doesn't apply.

In a tournament situation, the TD should address this particular obstacle.

I agree with Anita and others who call it a large solid object.

Rule of verticality is specific to Out of Bounds and is not applicable anywhere else.

I agree with Anita and others who call it a large solid object.



Personally, I can't think of anything MORE solid than rock...

Climo's game comes pretty close :D

I agree with Anita and others who call it a large solid object.



Personally, I can't think of anything MORE solid than rock...



Maybe a concrete picnic bench ?

Concrete is porous.

So is most rock. It is just a question of how much. ;)


Concrete is porous.

All I know is that a "time capsule" located in a cement block was a soup when it was opened after only 20 years. :p

803.05A says no relief from park equipment, like a concrete picnic table.

So, does that mean you can't take the immediately behind the object stance, or the 5M on LOP stance, or what?

Say, disc lands in such a way that the solid concrete base of a picnic table is directly behind it, said base being 24" diameter. Stance would be in the space occupied by the base; what to do??

803.05A says no relief from park equipment, like a concrete picnic table.

So, does that mean you can't take the immediately behind the object stance, or the 5M on LOP stance, or what?

Say, disc lands in such a way that the solid concrete base of a picnic table is directly behind it, said base being 24" diameter. Stance would be in the space occupied by the base; what to do??



Where does it say you get no relief from park equipment ? 803.05.A
What exactly is it talking about ? Relocating your lie to obtain relief from an obstacle.

803.04.E does not allow a player to relocate their lie, only exempts them the requirement of standing within 30cm of their lie upon release.