We got the opportunity to install a beautiful championship course on a local ski hill for the summer months, Timber Ridge Ski & Disc Golf Resort in Gobles, MI this past year.
It's almost 2 miles of challenging golf situated so you're not walking uphill the whole way...a very nice lay-out. In fact, the PDGA Selection Committee really enjoyed the course in preparations for the 2008 Pro/Am Worlds in Kalamazoo.

The owners take the time over the week to prepare the course for it's weekend opening by course maintenance, mowing several ski runs for fairways, and run the bar and grill while open 4 days of the week.
They are a pay-4-play course of $5 a day for PDGA members, $8 for non-members, and groups of 5 or more get a $3 discount if not current. Season passes are available for $40 as well. This is not a municipally funded course, like most of our city parks are and rely on disc golfers to come play and pay for their services.

I spend so much time defending the pay-4-play theory b/c these so-called "disc golfers" cross their arms and say, "I've never had to pay before to play, so I'll just go to a free course instead..." although nothing compares to the calibre of golf offered at Timber Ridge.

When are disc golfers going to realize that no sponsor will dump money into our sport if we, the people that do nothing but talk about and play disc golf, can't even reach into their own back pockets and shell out a couple of bucks for their time and effort.

I mean, come on! What do you spend $5 on in a week????
1 trip to McDonalds
2 cups of Starbucks
1 pack of smokes
2 beers at the bar
...and the list goes on and on and on......

We, as a collective, should support pay-4-play courses so the sport can grow. Otherwise, we will die out. As the sport grows in numbers, the number of parks stays the same. Sure, a few new courses will go in, but can they compare to the size or difficulty of a privately owned disc golf course? Another shining example is Bill Mackenzie's "Flip City" in Shelby, MI. Bill owns the land, installed the course, and maintains it with the help of the disc golfers donations. It's not the scale that Timber Ridge needs your support, but it is an undertaking.

Disc Golfers: My call is for you to immediately address the concerns of so-called disc golfers that block the idea of pay-4-play being a cash cow. Reason with them so these courses don't disappear.

Visit <font color="blue"> Timber Ridge Ski & Disc Golf Resort (http://pdga.com/course/courses_by_city.php?id=2349) </font> for more detail.

WE WOULD HATE TO LOSE THIS COURSE TO POOR ATTENDANCE OF THOSE THAT CAN'T PUT BACK INTO DISC GOLF WHAT THEY TAKE IN RETURN!!!!!

I think each area has to determine the best P4P model to be successful. The courses that have been successful when first in a market area have done so with low daily fees and have more than made sufficient income on disc and apparel sales, rentals and food/drink concessions. For the longest time, Morley field in San Diego has essentially been a monopoly with no other courses in the city. However, Snapper didn't take advantage of that fact and kept his daily fees as low as $1/day for all you can play back in the 90s. It's only now $2/round and $2.50 on weekends. www.morleyfield.com/course/morley.htm (http://www.morleyfield.com/course/morley.htm)

The idea is to do whatever is necessary to get your players to come. If you charge too much relative to the value players in your market accord to the facility versus free courses, the facility will fail. Since Timber Ridge is a new facility, I believe there should be free days (Monday?), free times (tee before 10am Tues-Thurs?) and probably lower fees. The rates you've quoted are higher than comparable prices I've seen elsewhere. You need to give players a reason to play the course at least once on their own terms (free) and provide discounts for the times we know golfers are less likely to come so they can't totally complain about P4P.

I couldn't agree more, Stubbs.

I don't know if it's the hippie "everything should be free!" background that disc golf came from, or the clientele the sport attracts, but it's absolutely ridiculous that many people that aren't willing to pay $5 per day or $40 per year to play disc golf on what sounds like a championship caliber course and the equivalent of a country club setting.

There is much wisdom in Chuck's insights.

It is hard to sell anything that the government is giving away for free or is subsidizing and selling for a much cheaper price.

Another consideration is whether disc golfers want to play that kind of course. Most disc golfers expect a low impact walk in the woods where par is defined as something acheivable by no-skill chuckers. You may be offering the kind of course that only expert golfers can appreciate. If your local courses are not overcrowded, it may be that for the price your market would rather go to the park.

Clearly, your problem is not just that it is P2P. Plenty of golfers are paying for a metropark pass to play the metropark courses and plenty of golfers pay the daily and seasonal fees at Mad Bert, Ferretti Baugo, and other municipally owned P2P courses. Coldbrook charges a fee, right?

If Timber Ridge is going to be in the market, they have to compete. Moreover, they have to compete against the government that competes unfairly by charging non-disc golfers for the courses they don't use.

Think about this too long and it could make a libertarian out of you.

The difference in P2P and P4P is just the price :D

All valid points...

We've been able to convince the propriators to reduce the cost for current pdga members. I just get the feeling that they expect this to be a profit in year 1.

The course is billed as a major challenge and I'm not talking about the average "One-Disc Johnny" seen at Knollwood or other pitch-n-putts. These complaints are coming from seasoned vets, club directors, td's, and talented adv/pro players. I realize that not everyone is suited for this type of extreme course (ie: Toboggan, Kensington), but I would rather see course designers expand the boundaries of the sport to facilitate growth and awareness. Chuck's ideas at Highbridge are great examples of how one could use the land given to make something bigger than expected /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif.
ESPN isn't going to cover a Coldbrook Tournament, but the 2008 Worlds is going to be centralized around Timber Ridge as a showcase course.
I agree incentives are needed to "bribe" players to come out, but my point is: When golfers eat, sleep, breathe, and dream disc golf, why aren't they willing to make their dreams come true...for just a couple of frappachinos a week?
Why do we have to Bribe players to do play a course they were asking for last year????? :confused: :confused:

It's a tough sell in the beginning. It will catch on if the course is fun and challenging. If the course is not fun, it won't ever catch on. The "get them in the door and make your money on the way out" may be a better plan the first year.

Sponsor local events with discount or free passes to be handed out as part of the player's packs. You've got to get enough golfers on the course for the word to get out.

Chuck's ideas at Highbridge are great examples of how one could use the land given to make something bigger than expected



Highbridge is a whole different animal than one course (at least for now) P4P situations on ski hills. With four 18-hole courses and an easy 9, we have the luxury of courses for all different skill levels and dual cement tees (almost there) so those who like championship caliber pitch-n-putt (oxymoron, I know) can enjoy their visit. It's tough to make a go with a single championship P4P course which not only forces players out of their comfort zone but charges them to boot.

It's your job to find ways to attract these customers, not their job to support your efforts, as frustrating as it may be.

Highbridge is a whole different animal than one course (at least for now) P4P situations on ski hills..... It's tough to make a go with a single championship P4P course which not only forces players out of their comfort zone but charges them to boot.

It's your job to find ways to attract these customers, not their job to support your efforts, as frustrating as it may be.



I was mostly referring to the "thinking outside the box" design of a course that's not just a "tee....tree...bush...putt...repeat" course. The ideas you've created are definately progressive and I know you've been battling the "ideal" that disc golf should be centrally located, free, and easy as to produce low scores.

I think most sunday golfers are looking to score like tiger woods at any skill level, not willing to put the work in of a determined player. From this, the idea of "if I can't beat it, I can knock it" starts. Unfortunately, mob mentality is running rampid in our sport where a few nay0sayers dictate the masses.

All I'm suggesting is that in order to bring players into this progressive environment, it's our job to attract them with a combination of incentives, benefits, convenience and/or value. They have to convince themselves that the new experience is worthwhile by actually experiencing it. Not everyone will like it or it will take time for them to embrace it. No amount of persuading will really work. In fact, it's likely counterproductive.

Our one P2P course here in KC is gone, due to land sale. It sucks, because Ted's Dread was amazing. Maybe not perfect, but amazing. But, it never got the play it deserved ($5/day) and the reason depends on who you ask: the local club never encouraged players to come out, or the course owner never got involved with the local club. Neither is totally right, neither totally wrong.
What it can say for others is, a P2P course has to be marketed to the locals first, then to others. Tournaments sponsored by the owner, even a league, and involvement by the owner in the local play at other courses can only help. But, the locals have to go play it as well, and show that the back scratchin' goes both ways.

As the owner of a private course ... Axldog Acres Disc Golf Course ... I never intented for the course to be a profitable money maker ( especially in the rural area that I live ). The course was really built to be my private playground, but I have warmed up to the idea of opening it up as a pay-for-play course. Here is the fee structure that I came up with:

$9 per day with the following discounts available ...

save $1, current PDGA membership ( must show card )
save $1, PDGA certified official ( must show card )
save $1, current membership to any other dues paying DG club
save $1, current college ID or public library card
save $1, print & present coupon from course website

So, It could cost anywhere between $4 - $9 to play. I thought it would be important to offer discounts to TDs, PDGA members, & local clubs. I also believe in and encourage education at all levels, so I added the college ID / library card discount too. And the website coupon ... just because. ;)

But I hear the same comments ... " why should I pay here, when I can play for free there?" I say fine to that. I don't want my course run down with litter, cig butts, and broken glass. Hopefully having a small fee to play will only attract the serious players who will actually appreciate the course for what it is, and keep away the trash who trash the free courses. :p

Also, anyone who buys a "fund raiser" disc from me deserves to play for free ( and get a coupon for another day of free play ), I have custom Innova CFR discs @ $30 each, and custom Gateway discs @ $15 each. THANK YOU INNOVA & GATEWAY FOR SUPPORTING AXLDOG ACRES DISC GOLF COURSE!!!!

Sounds kick butt! Can you mandate that only aluminum/plastic beverage containers be allowed 'through the gate'?

i have pretty limited exp w/ p2p courses. for me to want to pay for a course it has to be a step above from the local free ones. for instance tokken creek in madison, wi; its a good course but compared to its free counterpart 10 min down the road (hiestand) it isn't anywhere close. ludington, mi has a good set up with making it $1 per round on each of the 3 courses. and highbridge is a step above any other course i've ever played. i think the key to a successful p2p is that it be fun and very challenging. i think the easiest way to do that is to have am tees that are more for fun play with a good challenge and then pro tees that are really challenging to challenge those who want it. and no course whould be over $5 imo unless it is amazing!

ludington, mi has a good set up with making it $1 per round on each of the 3 courses.



That is a county park and is municipally funded by tax payers and the state. Timber Ridge is a privately owned property. Good example, though.


i think the key to a successful p2p is that it be fun and very challenging. i think the easiest way to do that is to have am tees that are more for fun play with a good challenge and then pro tees that are really challenging to challenge those who want it. and no course whould be over $5 imo unless it is amazing!



The trouble at TR is that the elevation is involved. To still put AM pads in, the players have to walk over the pro pads. The current course design wouldn't cater to paths to the AM pads. Most courses I've played (sans Oshtemo, MI) have led players past the pro tees to get to the AM tees.

We are in a dillema...TR has the property to put in 3 additional courses on the site , but the "monster" course was set up first, deterring average players from making the 20 minute drive from kzoo and 30 minute from Grand Rapids.
If the course were to generate interest, the owners would happily allow us to put the varied skill-level courses in, but they're having trouble looking past the low attendance in this, it's first season. We've told them a course usually needs 2-3 seasons before the nay-sayers are layed to rest, the course gets beat in, and attendance grows.

All of your ideas are great and the owners of TR have been advised to watch this thread for ideas to boost play on their beautiful course. Keep the ideas coming!!!!! :D

Are the current pro pads cement yet? If not, is it possible to change plans and turn the current course into less than a Gold course that might be more popular, presuming that there's adequately cool property remaining for a future monster course?

Are the current pro pads cement yet? If not, is it possible to change plans and turn the current course into less than a Gold course that might be more popular, presuming that there's adequately cool property remaining for a future monster course?



No, the pads can't be cemented in b/c the snow cats would eat them up every winter. Currently, we're evaluating "alternative pad options" that wouldn't interfer with their money maker business...skiing.

Isn't there enough snow during the winter season to keep them in tact? I would think so... :confused:

That's interesting because the ski operation here has had no problem with the nice big cement pads (even recommended them) because the snow base is made so high the pads are far enough below the cats.

I have played several P2P courses over the years

1st time was back in 1992 at some course in St. Louis called Hazelwood????

San Saba (Circle R2) <- played all three courses in one day
Wimberly (Circle R) <- 2 courses
Red Rock (moody's)
Ideal Golf Ranch (Ft. Worth Fly18)
Shelby Forest TN <- 2 courses now
Lookout MT GA

those are the ones off the top of my head.

If you live and play Disc Golf in San Diego, you better get used to Pay to Play courses! I support Pay to Play courses and hope to see more of them in San Diego!

Richard

White Birch Park = Hazelwood, suburb of St. Louis.

And I just read that Ideal Golf Ranch is closing this weekend. Purchased for development. I hope the owners made some cash out of the deal.

Isn't there enough snow during the winter season to keep them in tact? I would think so... :confused:



Keep in mind this course is in lower Michigan and it's not off the shores of Lake Superior. 380 inches of annual snow fall compared to 60 inches is a big difference. If you groom ice you'll certainly break tee pads.

Stubbs, I have a conference coming up in K-zoo on Sept. 13th. I'd love to play TR that afternoon/evening if you will be available and if they are open on Wed. for paying customers. A challenging course is great, especially if the front 9 plays to the bar. :D

Silly question, but couldn't the course be laid out where the tee pads were on the edges of the ski runs and not in danger of being groomed ?

Keep in mind this course is in lower Michigan and it's not off the shores of Lake Superior. 380 inches of annual snow fall compared to 60 inches is a big difference.



The ski hill with the cement tee pads is in the Twin Cities which gets no more than 40 inches average snowfall and has had less than that in the past few years. In general, the pads were designed to be on the edges of runs but a few are in the middle of free style jump areas.

Power to the proprietors, but I think it too early for such endeavors to be profitable. I'll be glad to discuss reasons for this, but the main one is definitely the lack of any organized amateur class. Pros naturally are looking to "make" profit, not "loose" it.

The owners should form some kind of alliance where they share experiences, stats and best practices. Perhaps even do things like get a group insurance policy, have a buying block for discs and other equipment, etc.

I think Snapper Pierson has been running a successful P2P for years in CA.

The key will be to build a strong local player base.
I don't think offering freebees is the best plan though, if and when you start charging, God help you with the whining and moaning you will face...