I was searching around typing in on google and found the Amateur DiscGolf Association (http://www.adgassoc.com)

I would be interested to see the ideas that are being worked on to "compete" with the PDGA. I signed up to be on the list

Wouldn't we need a Professional organization to have an Amatuer one? Right now the PDGA is the ADGA

I am guessing that they feel it is time for the Am's to be one their own

They basically are. I mean like 90% of the PDGA is Ams right? Wouldn't it be easier to just kick the Pros out? :confused:

Isnt it the goal of an AM to compete until he/she becomes a professional?
Other than that, it should be called the CasualDGA. Why join a organization you can become too good for? "sorry, but you practice too much to be a part of this."

It wouldn't be any different than being an Minor League baseball player or something along those lines

More like Little league because they are AMS.

yeah...minor leaguers have one goal...to go major...its kinda like playing park and rec softball...Just saying. ..."Sorry sir...it seems you're over-qualified for this position."

So then ams should just take it up the tailpipe?

your right, the PDGA does nothing for ams.

theres not amateur worlds. theres not an amatuer national championships. They don't let the champions of these events play in an event that I as a pro can't even qualify for.

no..keep playing and practice...keep competing...but dont hate on what you aspire to become(a pro). Or play casual and spectate tournaments...Pros practice to be as good as they are...reward them for that.

Why can't the ADGA exist along with the PDGA. Where the ADGA would focus on the Am's and the PDGA could focus on the Growth of the Sport Professionally.

Because we already have a ADGA but it is called the PDGA.

second...

What part of Pro means AM?

Or Vice Versa for that matter?

The link isnt working anymore??????????

The PDGA has been supporting the AM player base for many years and it seems like they want to strengthen the AM payouts which I feel will hurt the Pro players. Then again you can win $500 worth of plastic for 970 golf while pros have to shoot 990 just to get $25.

Right now, the foundation of DG IS the AM player base. We're your biggest sponsor!

well aware of that...I was an AM for many years...

But then again you aren't really Ams right? I mean you can sell plastic for $$$. Ams need to play for trophies and players packs. Heck I made just as much cash as an AM then I do as a Pro. :D

Then why are you so quick to shoot down something that might be good for the Sport as a whole. Or is it you realize that AM's provide a few more bucks into the purse of the Pro Payout?

Site works fine for me. Anyone else having problems?

Yeah so you should be getting $300 for winning an Am c-tier instead of $200 right?

Thats not it at all - what about $5 Non member fees and $2-$5 sanctioning fees not to mention the cost of a TD to get insurance and Sanction an event

Thats not it at all - what about $5 Non member fees and $2-$5 sanctioning fees not to mention the cost of a TD to get insurance and Sanction an event



What does that have to do with anything? I mean pros pay that as well.

The point is that the PDGA only benefits those top Pro players and Top Advanced that are trying to go pro.

Are you sure? I mean offering events where Int players can win $200 sure is nice.

I have run events and the top int player won about doubled his money.

Besides the PDGA is the one who sets up the Player Payout anyway.

Why is everyone so afraid of Change?

that is retrogression

How is this Regression?

because people who will watch our sport on television, want to see the best!! not the average.

Then seperate the sport - Am's go over here with the "OverPayouts" and the pros go over there where they have the "TV Time"

I used to feel strongly that ams were getting the shaft at PDGA tournaments. Now I think that ams get the shaft at most tournaments! In other words, it is not a PDGA specific thing. Nothing about the PDGA format precludes a TD from doing 150% payouts for lower divisions like Jon and I do.

And even then, there is no reason NOT to give the ams the shaft if they won't wake up and start running good tournaments for ams. Most ams cannot tell the shaft from a box of chocolates. They get what they deserve. They flock to unsanctioned tournaments that advertise 100% payouts. I can get a 100% payout if I spend my entry fee at Holdens!

I think if anyone were to create a rival organization for ams, they would have to offer ratings and group liability insurance to get anywhere with it. Otherwise it is just another Southern Nationals or Atlantic Disc Golf Association, a regional points series with a fat finale.

I view the money I pay to the PDGA as a barely reasonable fee for ratings, Worlds points, advertising on the PDGA.com tour page and a source of cheap insurance for my tournament venues that require insurance. Anyone who wanted to get something better going for ams would have to offer those services at a better price. Even then, it would be tough to get it going.

Don't you listen to the Pros that post on this site. The PDGA is only concerned about the Ams already.

The insurance isn't a PDGA requirement, it's a PDGA service. If you can find good event insurance for under $50 let us know so we can use it too.

What site, all it is there for is to get your email account. No information on what they are going to be about or anything. Sounds like another DiscGolfUnited dud.

Besides, as soon as DGA finds out about them, they will have to change there name. Disc Golf Association is a protected name and you have to have permission to use it. A few clubs do so. Like the ADGA (Arlingtion Discs Golf Association) who has ADGA.com already locked up.

Sorry, I stand corrected. Looks like someone did not renew ADGA.com and it is now for sale. Boy if I was a member of the Arlington club, I would be #$*&$!.

I get so sick of ams complaining about payout. In almost every sport ams get nothing for their play except a trophy. Part of the bagger problem in our sport is b/c of am payouts being way too good. Like Matt said, why would anyone want to have to shoot 2 strokes better a round to recieve a third of the prizes?

I've run tournaments and I am running on this weekend and I've had a great am payout simply b/c in both cases I've had over 400 dollars added to the pro purse. If I didn't, the am payout would be flat.

Here we go again...

I've got a slow day ahead of me at work, I needed something to keep me entertained today. This thread has the potentional :D

:)

This topic is so cyclical that it's not even fun anymore.

Pro whine about Am payouts
pro-Am TD whine about Pros
Pro whine about TV
Am post about Bank not accepting plastic coins
Pro whine about being better and getting less
3 pages of thread drift
Obligatory Nick post about the disenfranchised "true Ams"
Pro whine about Am payouts
...

Maybe this is a way to see if people are actually interested b4 going balls-out and ending up just asking for your $$.

Isnt it the goal of an AM to compete until he/she becomes a professional?



No its not everyone's goal to be a Pro - There are some who do not like all the rules that go along with playing in sanctioned events.

My guess is this initiative isn't really to form an amateur disc golf association unless Nick is behind it. It's likely an attempt to retain more merchandise by weekend disc golf gamblers playing for the full value of merchandise with no retail/wholesale differential ever being passed on to pros. A more appropriate name might be the Disc Golf Gamblers Association (DGGA) which would likely be available.

If it was truly an amateur disc golf association initiative, then it wouldn't compete with the PDGA. There have to be at least several hundred adult true ams out there nationally who want to compete just for trophies and have low entry fees. There's a vast school market of true ams that still hasn't been tapped. But it will take lots of dedication to pursue that group, perhaps building off the EDGE program. If that's what this true am initiative is all about then more power to you.

Hey, I hope it is the disc golf gamblers type group, or the aggrieved ams association. That way, the PDGA folks would soon realize what an idle threat that stuff really is, and quit using that threat as an excuse not to do the right thing.

whois shows that this site was started by someone from Milwaukee, WI. I hope this isn't yet another case of astroturfing. Last time a site (that had little to no info it. only requesting email addresses) showed up, there was some astroturfing by a disc golfer releated to the site. Matter of fact, I think that one also originated in Wisconsin.

You mean, like, indoor golf? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

What is "astroturfing"?

I would like to know that very same thing!

"astroturfing." Jargon File 4.2.0 (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=astroturfing&x=0&y=0). 06 Sep. 2006.

n. The use of paid shills to create the
impression of a popular movement, through means like letters to
newspapers from soi-disant `concerned citizens', paid opinion
pieces, and the formation of grass-roots lobbying groups that are
actually funded by a PR group (astroturf is fake grass; hence the
term). This term became common among hackers after it came to light
in early 1998 that Microsoft had attempted to use such tactics to
forestall the U.S. Department of Justice's antitrust action against
the company.

This backfired horribly, angering a number of state
attorneys-general enough to induce them to go public with plans to
join the Federal suit. It also set anybody defending Microsoft on
the net for the accusation "You're just astroturfing!".
Jargon File 4.2.0

What is "astroturfing"?

Never mind. I read the definition at http://www.answers.com/topic/astroturfing . Definitionally, I don't think this could be astroturfing. The website looks like they are looking for likeminded individuals, and not representing that a group or organization already exists.

I gave them my e-mail address. I'm tired of getting the shaft everywhere I get it! But mostly, anymore, I play my own tournaments and stuff with cheap entry fees:

Jaybird Doubles. Thursday. Tommorrow. Noon. Tobbogan. $10. This is a merch payout event. It is Jaybirds merch, so maybe there'll be some cool dyed stuff.

Jaybird Doubles. Thursday. Tommorrow. Noon. Tobbogan. $10. This is a merch payout event. It is Jaybirds merch, so maybe there'll be some cool dyed stuff.



Plug it when you can Bruce!!! :)

I think to get anyone seriously interested in anything other than the PDGA, it would have to be better than the PDGA.


Good luck with that. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

21480, what are your interests/concerns with this site? Is it just a coincidence that you are in Milwaukee and you list web development as your occupation?

got em

Isn't it the goal of an AM to compete until he/she becomes a professional?


For some, yes. For many, no. The vast majority of disc golfers (including many that donate to the pro divisions) will never play at the pro level. That level being the ability to contend for the cash on a regular basis.


Ams need to play for trophies and players packs . . . In almost every sport ams get nothing for their play except a trophy


I agree that there is too much merch given away for am payouts; we should be doing everything we can to bring down entry fees for am events. I don’t mind if td’s incorporate the costs of course rental, lunch, and even a per-head “administrative” fee for themselves, just let it be transparent. Players packages are the opportunity for sponsors to put their products and services directly into the hands of potential customers.


Part of the bagger problem in our sport is b/c of am payouts being way too good



I disagree that there’s a “bagger problem”, particularly at the advanced/open level. There’s a short run incentive for cashing pros to encourage/persuade/coerce advanced players into becoming donators that will “raise” purses, but in the long run this dilutes the talent pool and warps the perception of the word “pro”.

Particularly as more and more pro tournaments are held on true golf courses that fully test all elements of players’ games, the chasm between the true pro and the donator will widen. The donators that can hang within a few strokes of the hot round on a blue par 54 layout often find themselves shooting +10-12 when they get on a championship golf course. Over time we should make the process of qualifying for all Majors and NT’s rigorous to the point that eventually everyone playing in these events will be a sponsored player.

people who will watch our sport on television, want to see the best!! not the average.

I agree that there is too much merch given away for am payouts; we should be doing everything we can to bring down entry fees for am events. I don�t mind if td�s incorporate the costs of course rental, lunch, and even a per-head �administrative� fee for themselves, just let it be transparent. Players packages are the opportunity for sponsors to put their products and services directly into the hands of potential customers.

then these TD's / clubs don't make money. the true Reason TD's love AM'S

21480, what are your interests/concerns with this site? Is it just a coincidence that you are in Milwaukee and you list web development as your occupation?



I am not responsible for this website - It was registered in Mequon, WI - I live in Menomonee Falls which is outside of Milwaukee.

I am, however, interested in seeing if there are people who agree there needs to be change or if everyone is going to be a lemmings and follow the rest of the sheep.

I agree that there is too much merch given away for am payouts; we should be doing everything we can to bring down entry fees for am events. I don�t mind if td�s incorporate the costs of course rental, lunch, and even a per-head �administrative� fee for themselves, just let it be transparent. Players packages are the opportunity for sponsors to put their products and services directly into the hands of potential customers.

then these TD's / clubs don't make money. the true Reason TD's love AM'S


There are plenty of ways for TDs/clubs to make a little money without charging high entry fees and sending ams home with boatloads of merch.

$25 entry fee:
$5 toward administrative costs (course rental, insurance fees, etc)
$5 toward competition fees (PDGA player fees, local series fees, etc)
$15 toward player pack and/or payout (equates to about a high-end disc per person either in a player pack or toward a payout)

Admin costs, by design, cover much of the overhead for the event, so the $6-8 retail profit on each disc is what the club gets. Might it be a reduction from the "profits" of the previous system? Maybe, but let's not pretend that going away from the high entry/stacks of plastic payout would leave the clubs with zero income. And no one is stopping them from selling stuff independent of the tournament itself to make some money as well.



21480, what are your interests/concerns with this site? Is it just a coincidence that you are in Milwaukee and you list web development as your occupation?



I am not responsible for this website - It was registered in Mequon, WI - I live in Menomonee Falls which is outside of Milwaukee.

I am interested in seeing if there are people who agree there needs to be change or if everyone is going to be a lemmings and follow the rest of the sheep right off the cliff.



If the goal is to find people who agree with "something", doesn't there need to be "something" to agree with first? What does this new organization offer/plan that differs from the PDGA? What does the PDGA do wrong or not do at all that merits the need for a new organization? What exactly are we rebelling against by signing up with this new organization?

Seems to me that signing up for this email list that doesn't really offer anything substantive really amounts to signing on with a new group of "lemmings". Why should I choose to jump off your cliff rather than the PDGA's if I don't know where your cliff is or what it looks like or how high up it is? Like it or not, for better or worse, at least the PDGA is the "devil" you know at this point. What is this Amateur DG Association? At this point, it's a flashy graphic offering vague innuendos and little more. I don't want to jump for that.

--Josh

I was searching around typing in on google and found the Amateur DiscGolf Association (http://www.adgassoc.com)

I would be interested to see the ideas that are being worked on to "compete" with the PDGA. I signed up to be on the list




You just happened to be 'searching around' and found this, have constantly interjected yourself into this thread with statements derogatory towards the PDGA such as 'follow like sheep', and then assume no one will see through that you are involved?

Nice try, Jeff. Why don't you take it off of the site that PDGA members have paid for and support.

I was searching around typing in on google and found the Amateur DiscGolf Association (http://www.adgassoc.com)

I would be interested to see the ideas that are being worked on to "compete" with the PDGA. I signed up to be on the list




You just happened to be 'searching around' and found this, have constantly interjected yourself into this thread with statements derogatory towards the PDGA such as 'follow like sheep', and then assume no one will see through that you are involved?

Nice try, Jeff. Why don't you take it off of the site that PDGA members have paid for and support.



My search was for disc golf and the other disc golf magazine - the site was about 4 or 5 pages deep - What the hell do you care, are people that scared of change. I only reported what I found. And besides I am also a Paid PDGA member!

Seems strange when the whois record was updated yesterday and this supposedly found domain is already in his sig on another message board.

Just a tad bit skeptical. Other than ideology, what other connections do you (amdiscgolfer#21480 ) have to this site?
Do you know who is behind the site (the whois record does not list an individual)?

I do not know who is attached to the site. I just thought it interesting that someone was out there trying to fire up the crowd - Yes the URL is on my Signature for the Discontinuum Board - Free advertising isn't against the law.

Searching google "site:www.adgassoc.com" and "site:adgassoc.com" show nothing. Ie That site is listed nowhere in their database. Not sure how you would have found it.

Free advertising isn't against the law.



No, but it looks bad when someone is promoting something that they are related to but acts like they aren't. I've seen people fired/disciplined for it.

I am trying to be careful (probably not enough) about not outright accusing you of this, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt.

He didn't find it. He knew about it and tried to be cute in how he 'advertised' it.

Again Jeff, nice try. The site is too new to register a hit on Google under most popular search terms related to disc golf.

Its also interesting that its already in your signature on another site. For how long, I wonder? Perhaps longer than when you reported your 'discovery' here?

So , why would anyone be interested in a group that is already misleading their potential members?

Your right - Its Me!

Cuz I have the time with two kids, a wife, new job, and running the OZDGC, and studying for microsoft exams.

It's also ironic considering that the PDGA is making efforts to host the next Am Worlds in Milwaukee with much of the work being done by pros. It will likely result in additional courses in Milwaukee which it sure can use for a city its size. So, Milwaukee ams and new players may benefit from PDGA efforts more than many places over the next year. Gentry and I will be there in two days for Terry to show us how well things are coming along and to help with moving things forward.

Didn't say that it was you who put up the site, only that it is very apparent that you were well aware of it as opposed to your original claim to have found it in a Google search.

Hope the registration fee was worth it to ya' all. I can't see much more payback coming out of this domain name after its recent sloppy pimping.

Tim,

I did not know about it. What I find so funny is that people are more interested in finding out who started up a site instead of checking to see if something is wrong with the current PDGA. Maybe people are tired of trying to get their voice heard by the PDGA only to be ignored. So they go out and try to find more people who are interested in their beliefs.

I do not see how that is wrong - and whats the worst that happens, they fail and find out that maybe the PDGA is good enough for the sport.

Also note that the site contains nothing for google to key off of. No meta tags, no text, nothing but a flash animation.

Google would never pick up this site.

People are concerned about finding out who is behind it for several reasons. I am hesitant to get on any mailing list I don't know anything about. I do not throw my support behind anything I know nothing of. The website has no information except a banner saying something else is bad. Failing to get any useful information from the site itself, the only way to try and get some useful info is to find out who owns the site and see if you can glean some insight to their motives from what else they are involved in.

Finding out that the site is registered without a contact name or address makes everything associated with it something to avoid for me. It is one thing to post a site containing your personal opinions or interests without any identifying information, but for an organization that hopes to represent members it is not acceptable.

both sites were registered through the same service...

Registration Service Provided By: SureSupport.com
Contact: [email protected]

out of the bazillion registration sites...... coincidence?

Tim,

I did not know about it. What I find so funny is that people are more interested in finding out who started up a site instead of checking to see if something is wrong with the current PDGA. Maybe people are tired of trying to get their voice heard by the PDGA only to be ignored. So they go out and try to find more people who are interested in their beliefs.

I do not see how that is wrong - and whats the worst that happens, they fail and find out that maybe the PDGA is good enough for the sport.



What I'm tired of is the vague references. If this is something for real and not just a way to compile email addresses for spam purposes (my personal suspicion), why can't anyone associated with the site or just in agreement with the "movement" post something in the way of a mission statement? I don't care if it's on the site in question or right here on this thread, just something other then the vague innuendo being posted by Jeff and flashed on the website.

I couldn't care less about who started the site or who's behind it, I'd just like to know what the deal is. I'm not putting my email address into an anonymous web site to find out more either.

If no one can answer this very simple question, of course this little "venture" is doomed to failure.

--Josh

It's also ironic considering that the PDGA is making efforts to host the next Am Worlds in Milwaukee with much of the work being done by pros. It will likely result in additional courses in Milwaukee which it sure can use for a city its size. So, Milwaukee ams and new players may benefit from PDGA efforts more than many places over the next year. Gentry and I will be there in two days for Terry to show us how well things are coming along and to help with moving things forward.

Am Worlds is always run as a profit maker for the PDGA which then adds cash to Pro Worlds, so it makes sense that pros should step up and run it. Even if the dollars are laundered through the general account, we all know what's up.

Wouldn't a web developer know that a site can't be searched without meta tags or at least some concrete searchable content? You seem to personally vested in the issue to not be a part of this.

Is the PDGA perfect? no. I have seen instance where the organization has tried to correct mistakes and make positive decisions for the future.

Usually the pros running pro worlds then have an unsponsored A-tier the next year, too. It's win-win for the pros to run Am Worlds. That is, a win for the pros and a win for the pros.

Tim,

I did not know about it. What I find so funny is that people are more interested in finding out who started up a site instead of checking to see if something is wrong with the current PDGA. Maybe people are tired of trying to get their voice heard by the PDGA only to be ignored. So they go out and try to find more people who are interested in their beliefs.

I do not see how that is wrong - and whats the worst that happens, they fail and find out that maybe the PDGA is good enough for the sport.



Jeff,

I'm finding that funny too, but only because you seem to be encouraging it. You started the thread, seem to be going out of your way to defend it, you continually throw in little jabs at the PDGA, and just that you post on this thread once every three or four posts raises all sorts of red flags.

In a perfect world, we'd be more concerned about the content of the message rather than the messenger, but given that there's next to zero concrete information, fixating on the site's origin and your possible involvement seems like the logical (and entertaining :D) thing to do. And you're seemingly doing your best to encourage that. :D

Am Worlds is always run as a profit maker for the PDGA which then adds cash to Pro Worlds, so it makes sense that pros should step up and run it.



Not any more. With the cost of staff travel and marshals to team with the locals to stage a quality event, I believe it's pretty much a breakeven proposition or loss for the PDGA. That's also true for some other Am Majors or dual events like the Mid-Nats. The local pro volunteers end up with the satisfaction of running a good event, a player pack and volunter meals. Whatever is generated from retail/wholesale differential is plowed back into making a better event for the players. Ask any attendee at Tulsa if they think it was run well and they got value for their fees.

OK here it is
From the Whois domain search you get a phone number of the owner. I plugged it in the reversephone lookup and using my account through there it comes up with one Jeff Mitchell.
If you still want to deny it I can give you your current street address, and what looks like a previous address.

It's also ironic considering that the PDGA is making efforts to host the next Am Worlds in Milwaukee with much of the work being done by pros. It will likely result in additional courses in Milwaukee which it sure can use for a city its size. So, Milwaukee ams and new players may benefit from PDGA efforts more than many places over the next year. Gentry and I will be there in two days for Terry to show us how well things are coming along and to help with moving things forward.

Am Worlds is always run as a profit maker for the PDGA which then adds cash to Pro Worlds, so it makes sense that pros should step up and run it. Even if the dollars are laundered through the general account, we all know what's up.



Bruce, Bruce, Bruce.... obviously you don't know whats up .... again!

Having TD'd both the Pro and Am Worlds, I can safely say that you do not know what you are talking about.

Both the Pro and Am Worlds receive a cash stipend each year from the PDGA somewhere in the neighborhood of $5,000 to help with expenses, and this money cannot be used as part of the payout.

Any profit from either of these events, if there is any, is evenly split between the host club and the PDGA and there is a specified limit. My guess is that the PDGA does not ever recoup the full amount of their cash stipend and therefore loses money on both of these events every year.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Why do you continue to purposely mislead members with faulty information and false accusations to push your agenda?

I wonder what kind of a tournament you'd get if an amateur ran an amateur major?

Oh, yeah, Am Nationals! :D :D :D

OK here it is
From the Whois domain search you get a phone number of the owner. I plugged it in the reversephone lookup and using my account through there it comes up with one Jeff Mitchell.
If you still want to deny it I can give you your current street address, and what looks like a previous address.


That got to hurt,i can feel it out here in calie. :o
how is someone suppost to trust an organization built around a liar :confused:

Jeff,

Why have you repeatedly denied being affiliated with this association or website? I think people would have been more interested in discussing the merits of this idea than who is behind all of this if you would have just manned up. If you truly wanted to form something likes this, taking stabs at the PDGA and denying being apart of it is not a good start. Good luck.

My two cents.

21480, what are your interests/concerns with this site? Is it just a coincidence that you are in Milwaukee and you list web development as your occupation?



I am not responsible for this website - It was registered in Mequon, WI - I live in Menomonee Falls which is outside of Milwaukee.

I am, however, interested in seeing if there are people who agree there needs to be change or if everyone is going to be a lemmings and follow the rest of the sheep.



oops!

I wonder what kind of a tournament you'd get if an amateur ran an amateur major?

Oh, yeah, Am Nationals! :D :D :D



I'm sorry Bruce but this is pretty low. You come on here and carp about the PDGA putting out misleading information and as soon as someone calls you on it you redirect.

Given the "relatively" large amount of power you have as a consistent commentator on this MB, you have an obligation to be a little more careful and to at least fess up to your mistakes.

One question (asked honestly):

If Am Worlds is break even, then why do areas line up to host compared to the lack of areas willing to host Pro Worlds?

Quite simply..... the attitudes of the players.

At the Pro Worlds post event dinner, I was sitting at a table with Am Worlds TD Kevin McCoy. Kevin was telling my wife that the Am Worlds is much easier to run in one respect and that is, "The pro players are much harder to please and impress because most of them have been to the Worlds many times before and have very high and sometimes unrealistic expectations for the event. The Ams are so excited to be at an event as big as Am Worlds, many for the first time, that they are instantly blown away and you hear much less complaints and whining."

My favorite tournament all time as a player was the 92 Am Worlds in Indianapolis.

Sorry for the thread drift... :o

Less sponsor cash has to be raised to cover the expenses at Am Worlds due to the retail/wholesale differential. If that generates $10,000, then $10,000 in expenses can be covered before even having to get one sponsor. For Pro Worlds, that first $10,000 in expenses (and it's usually more than that now) has to come from sponsors which means nothing has yet been added to the purse, so even more has to be raised. This year, $20,000 was added to the pro purse after all expenses were covered from sponsor contributions. That's a lot of money to raise for Pro Worlds in comparison to Am Worlds which is why Am Worlds has more people lining up to bid - not so much to make money as to not likely lose any.

"This year, $20,000 was added to the pro purse after all expenses were covered from sponsor contributions."



$20,000 was our goal. In actuality, we added over $25,000.

I wonder what kind of a tournament you'd get if an amateur ran an amateur major?

Oh, yeah, Am Nationals! :D :D :D



I'm sorry Bruce but this is pretty low. You come on here and carp about the PDGA putting out misleading information and as soon as someone calls you on it you redirect.

Redirect We posted simultaneously, you Nimrod.

Todd, if you are reading, I meant that as a compliment. Todd's player's packs are well worth the entry fee. The side games, payouts and trophies have got to push that tournament over 250%.

The PDGA hasn't given us any misleading information recently. Shoot, they have not published minutes since sometime last spring.

When I was on the Board Flagstaff got Am Worlds as "paybacks" for having hosted Pro Worlds. When I was with the MDGO we made money on Worlds. When Todd first ran Am Nationals for a loss, I heard from a board member how shocked the PDGA was. They assumed that the tournament was going to be another fundraiser for the pros.

If the PDGA decided to spend almost $10 per player on Am Worlds, good for them. Now that we no longer have an open organization, we'll just have to take the word of people who prefer not to run open organizations. If Oklahoma has an extra grand for the touring pros at their fall A-tier this year, folks with three digit i.q.s will be able to connect the dots.

If Oklahoma has an extra grand for the touring pros at their fall A-tier this year, folks with three digit i.q.s will be able to connect the dots.




No fair counting the money the locals raised from their lemonade stands on all the courses :D

Now that we no longer have an open organization, we'll just have to take the word of people who prefer not to run open organizations.



All of the financials for the last several Worlds are available to use for budget planning both for potential bidders and those of us in the middle of doing it. Becky Zallek has been the consultant for helping potential bidders get their bids prepared and so they don't have any financial surprises in the process due to "hidden" information.

However you slice it Bruce.

BTW - Fessing up to a mistake doesn't mean digging back a couple of years to find the last time your statement was correct.

The PDGA hasn't given us any misleading information recently. Shoot, they have not published minutes since sometime last spring.



Thanks for finally admitting that Bruce. We appreciate hearing that from you since you are the leading expert at giving misleading information.

When I was on the Board Flagstaff got Am Worlds as "paybacks" for having hosted Pro Worlds.


Actually, Dan's bid was for Flagstaff to host both Pro and Am Worlds in the same year but the PDGA BOD felt it would be safer if they did Pro Worlds one year and Am Worlds the next. At least that is the way I remember it, as I was at the Summit in Phoenix when the bid was presented. I don't remember seeing you. Maybe you weren't on the Board yet, or maybe you had already quit.

When I was with the MDGO we made money on Worlds.


Enough said! Hypocrisy once again raises its ugly head.

When Todd first ran Am Nationals for a loss, I heard from a board member how shocked the PDGA was.


I am surprised also that the first Am Nationals lost money. A small contingency line in the budget will usually help keep that from happening.

They assumed that the tournament was going to be another fundraiser for the pros.


Your words...not theirs. It sounds like you were the one doing the assuming.

90% of the PDGA is Ams right? Wouldn't it be easier to just kick the Pros out? :confused:



:eek: :D :D

What I find so funny is that people are more interested in finding out who started up a site instead of checking to see if something is wrong with the current PDGA

bingo

of course its natural to protect your investment, so some response is to be expected. nevertheless, your point is well made, and taken.

If Oklahoma has an extra grand for the touring pros at their fall A-tier this year, folks with three digit i.q.s will be able to connect the dots.




No fair counting the money the locals raised from their lemonade stands on all the courses :D



The lemonade stands did not count towards the tournamnet. :o

And we will still have more than an extra grand left over for the pros. The Ams will make out like bandits also. ;).

hum, this Jeff guy has not posted sense being outed :D


BTW, I am PDGA#5380 and I, for the most part, like what the PDGA is doing and heading right now.

Original post

I was searching around typing in on google and found the Amateur DiscGolf Association (http://www.adgassoc.com)

I would be interested to see the ideas that are being worked on to "compete" with the PDGA. I signed up to be on the list



The problem is we have heard all this before.

There is no cookie cutter tournament. Every type of tournament has it's place. No one tournament will or can please everyone.

Therefore you have several types of tournaments. Those with high entry fees and those with low entry fees.

If no one wants to play that type of tournament, no one will show up and either the TD will quit or change his ways.

I have seen it all before.

I second that bryan! I.M.O. We as members " pay " for the privelage of association with the PDGA. We as members volunteer our money to the PDGA. It could be real easy to debate the administrative cost associated with governing over 10000 current members. It could be real easy to turn a blind eye to the obstacles the PDGA has to overcome every day. It could be real easy to stop this non-sense.

Being a " newer " member ( 28114 ) I concede that I do not speak from the voice of experience. I do have half a brain in my skull. That brain has always told me not to bite the hand that feeds! Whilst we sit here and bicker back and forth, there is a group of people trying with all their might to take the sport we LOVE, and make it better for all. I am sure it is really hard to sell the concept of " PROFESSIONAL DISC GOLF " when you have a MB full of this crap.
LIKE AMERICA- " LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT "
I would like to thank the BOD,all governing entities of the PDGA, TD's , touring pro's , weekend warriors, and even the Am Baggers. With out all of you, we would not have the one thing in our life that makes us happy. DISC GOLF!
ALL YOU HATERS, TAKE YOUR HOSTILITY TO THE COURSE AND WORK IT OUT. IM SURE YOUR GAME COULD USE IT!

Also, as a true AM player. I know first hand that there will always be sandbaggers. I know that some people will always sell their winning's for profit. It is those individuals that have to live with themselves. They know what kind of people they are. That is the beauty of out beloved sport. In one aspect, it is self regulating. Nobody will respect the 999 rated Advanced Player, eventually they will crawl back under the rock they came from, or move up. The best man may not always win, but that is life.

Well,

Ok, the cat is out of the bag! So lets get right to the point - the reason I decided to deny that the site was mine was to see how many people would focus on "who the creator of a site could be" and who would focus on the idea of an, for lack of better word "Alternative Organization". And 40 people have signed up for the mailing list, some of those people might surprise you as well as they are Longtime Members of the PDGA and Board Members at that.

The fact that most of you who posted, spent your morning being Cyber detectives was facinating. Not in the fact that you found out who owned the site, which by the way is a fake # so highly impossible that you would have found my address through that, but that you had nothing better to do with your Wednesday morning that try to figure that out. I am sure that was time well spent.

The true reason for the site was to generate a topic, not a "Astroturfing" conversation but a true discussion about what the PDGA has accomplished and what it can accomplish in the future. The problem I see is that there are a lot of "we should do this" type people but when it comes time to step up and "Volunteer" most of those people cannot be found. The other type of person in the DG Community are those who just throw money your way (this doesn't always happen) which is fine and grateful however, it doesn't fill the "VOLUNTEER VOID".

I am in no way ANTI-PDGA, it seems that most of everyone else is ANTI-ANYTHING BUT THE PDGA. And that is why I simply raised the question.

Well,

Ok, the cat is out of the bag! So lets get right to the point - the reason I decided to deny that the site was mine was to see how many people would focus on "who the creator of a site could be" and who would focus on the idea of an, for lack of better word "Alternative Organization". And 40 people have signed up for the mailing list, some of those people might surprise you as well as they are Longtime Members of the PDGA and Board Members at that.

The fact that most of you who posted, spent your morning being Cyber detectives was facinating. Not in the fact that you found out who owned the site, which by the way is a fake # so highly impossible that you would have found my address through that, but that you had nothing better to do with your Wednesday morning that try to figure that out.

The true reason for the site was to generate a topic, not a "Astroturfing" conversation but a true discussion about what the PDGA has accomplished and what it can accomplish in the future. The problem I see is that there are a lot of "we should do this" type people but when it comes time to step up and "Volunteer" most of those people cannot be found. The other type of person in the DG Community are those who just throw money your way (this doesn't always happen) which is fine and grateful however, it doesn't fill the "VOLUNTEER VOID".

I am in no way ANTI-PDGA, it seems that most of everyone else is ANTI-ANYTHING BUT THE PDGA. And that is why I simply raised the question.



Oh, what a clever ruse. You sure proved your point...what the hell was it again? Baffling that you of the wife, two kids, job, no free time, etc bothered to take the time to even set this up.

I guarantee you would have generated far more interest in the "cause" and less in the "who's behind it" had there been anything of substance on your little site or in any of your posts on this thread. You might as well put up a site that promoted an alternative to peanut butter without ever suggesting one alternative or giving one reason why peanut butter even needs replacing, for all you accomplished.

All you've really accomplished is compiling a list of "lemmings" willing to be a part of anything that could be considered counter-culture. There was no substansive discussion here, and if that was your original goal, you certainly went about it the wrong way and failed miserably.

--Josh

You are truly a mastermind.

I am super excited to sign up for any organization that has liars at the helm.


Tool.

Before everyone went on a tirade about AM & PRO Worlds people were trying to prove the need for the PDGA as a stand alone organization. That was the point. And still all you saw was "a clever ruse".

Who's to say that there isn't someone forming a New organization. The first thing to do with anything is put out feelers to see if there is an interest. *BING* Done that!

#2 - See what businesses/individuals would bring to the new organization that seperates it from the Original.

As I see it - regardless of the ruse as you say - things are being done - now whether this organization happens or not depends on those who decide that the needs of the Majority are/aren't being met.

If they are being met then the "RUSE" fades away and nothing is heard from it again - A few people who might know of me, might not like me anymore or might like me even less, but thats the way it goes. You can't please everyone all the time.

well, most of us have seen this done before with DiscGolfUnited. In the last year, what have they done?? How many joined there ranks. Last time I checked, only a few Austin people were still posting. (prolly non PDGA members trying to get there PDGA message board fix)

The PDGA has been growing for 25+ years. Of course it has hit a few bumbs in the road, any organization would.

But what I see now is an organization that is geared towards the Am's but trying not to forget the Pro's. (don't forget, we voted on a name change and it was voted down)

The PDGA is many things. Forfront, they are trying to grow Disc Golf. That is why things like EDGE, Matching Baskets Program, and others have been started up.

Forfront, they are trying to grow Disc Golf. That is why things like EDGE, Matching Baskets Program, and others have been started up.



Guess what Mr. Am Disc Golf liar,

When the PDGA does just what PIzza God just said, THAT PROMOTES AMATUER PLAYERS.

G-R-U-N-I-O-N

Mr. Am Disc Golf liar



That is so genius of you - did you do that by yourself or did you have some local 3rd graders help.

I NEVER stated that the PDGA did nothing for am's. What I am trying to say is that the PDGA needs to enforce certain rules (Ratings & Payouts) to ensure that those that are playing within the "correct" division are not shafted by those who are afraid of competition knowing that if they bag at the lower division they will be able to cash. Cashing should not be the primary concern of Amateur Disc Golfers. Playing competitively should.

Think of me as a liar - I could care less, the funny part of all this is that I raised a question that most of the PDGA Members are afraid of taking on. You say "don't bite the hand that feeds me - for my $50 I got a Lifetime PDGA #, a Mini, a magazine 4 times a month that pretty much covers the pros of the sport, once in a while there is an article about an AM Event and in my opinion hasn't given me anything interesting to read in 2 years.

good luck just making a website with 1% of the information that can be found just on the PDGA Tour Link.

This doesnt even go into this board, the contact page, the rules, the store, the radio show, the course directory, etc.

Step up and volunteer your time with the PDGA and make a difference. Starting splinter groups because everyone didn't jump at your every suggestion accomplishes nothing.

The fact is we have one National disc golf organization (that tries to be world wide but really isn't). If you like what it does, help keep it going; if you dont' like what it does, step up and help change things within the org.

There aren't enough disc golfer "do-ers" to supprot another organization, but you can find that out the hard way if you must.

I agree with Rhett, if your drive is enough to network with others, either get with those that know and give input.

How about this, add a survey to your web site. See what Am's want from there tournaments. You will need to make sure only entry per IP address or your numbers could be off (but then I think there is even ways around that too)

You would be supprised.

As far as DGWN, I read mine cover to cover. I have been getting DGWN for over 10 years now. I use to get Disc Golf Journal (I was using my Disc Golf Journal pen just the otaher day) and I pick up every copy of Disc Golf Magazine I can.

I am a member of the RDGA, PDGA, DDG, and have been members of HFDS, ADGA, IDSA and the original NTDG. On top of helping start the LSDGA. (not really a club, but a loose net of Texas TD's)

Jeff,

I wish you well on your endeavor for an "Alternative Organization," as you put it.

But the simple truth is that I cannot possibly fathom a worse way to start off building a foundation towards achieving that goal. With all the smoke & mirrors, deception, denials, lying, etc. I can confidently forsee that for the rest of time, any iniative you are associated with will be met with skepticism and distrust, because that is the groundwork you have laid.

Maybe next time you might want to consider something like the following:


Hello all, I'm Jeff Mitchell and I'm wondering if anyone would be interested in a new governing body that cares about what amateur players want. If so, join the mailing list.



Would that have been so hard? Just exactly what is wrong with that approach?

Hey Jeff I think that would have worked. :D

Well,

Ok, the cat is out of the bag! So lets get right to the point - the reason I decided to deny that the site was mine was to see how many people would focus on "who the creator of a site could be" and who would focus on the idea of an, for lack of better word "Alternative Organization". And 40 people have signed up for the mailing list, some of those people might surprise you as well as they are Longtime Members of the PDGA and Board Members at that.

The fact that most of you who posted, spent your morning being Cyber detectives was facinating. Not in the fact that you found out who owned the site, which by the way is a fake # so highly impossible that you would have found my address through that, but that you had nothing better to do with your Wednesday morning that try to figure that out. I am sure that was time well spent.

The true reason for the site was to generate a topic, not a "Astroturfing" conversation but a true discussion about what the PDGA has accomplished and what it can accomplish in the future. The problem I see is that there are a lot of "we should do this" type people but when it comes time to step up and "Volunteer" most of those people cannot be found. The other type of person in the DG Community are those who just throw money your way (this doesn't always happen) which is fine and grateful however, it doesn't fill the "VOLUNTEER VOID".

I am in no way ANTI-PDGA, it seems that most of everyone else is ANTI-ANYTHING BUT THE PDGA. And that is why I simply raised the question.



Don't flatter yourself, Jeff. Everyone saw through this in minutes. They were just being polite and giving you the benefit of the doubt instead of coming out and calling you an idiot.

Aren't you also using this resource to promote your non-sanctioned Brew City tournament? You know, I was considering making it to that and checking out what was up with the Ozaukee scene as I had heard some good things. Unfortunately, I think you have shown me plenty here to convince me otherwise. Good luck with it.

Aren't you also using this resource to promote your non-sanctioned Brew City tournament? You know, I was considering making it to that and checking out what was up with the Ozaukee scene as I had heard some good things. Unfortunately, I think you have shown me plenty here to convince me otherwise. Good luck with it.



Tim, as a paying member of this org I am allowed to use this forum for promoting the game of Disc Golf. I agree that my approach as Jeff L stated was *****-backwards. Not denying that one bit - If you dont want to come down because of my actions on this board today then so be it.

But I have a question for you my friend - We have been running things out at Tendick Park for almost one year - and you nor have many of the "other Dretzka boys" come down to show their Support for Disc Golf in OZaukee County. Why would you bother gracing us with your presence now? And why would you hold the members of the club or the Park responsible for my actions on this "Public Forum"? Seems a bit childish, if you ask me. A few have come down, Moose, Josh Hamm, Don Loper and his two boys among others. Hell, rumor has it that Barry Schultz has been to the park and said good things about the park. And we are grateful for them to come down and see that there are changes and the course is improving. Through their seeing the changes first hand, we have seen record #'s at the course. We have been running leagues every saturday Since last October and now you want to come down, I think you never had any intent on coming down, my inability to communicate my message correctly is just an excuse for you.

If you'd notice on the Dretzka league standings, I haven't made it to one of those in about three years. Heck, I didn't even make this year's Milwaukee Open. So, your classifying me as a 'Dretzka boy' would be inaccurate. Oh, and I have been to Tendick, and not sorry I missed you.

But call it what you want, I now have absolutely no desire to join your non-sanctioned event, and hope you have the decency to no longer advertise it on the 'Dretzka boys' (i.e. GLDCG) forum of this message board.

In retrospect, I have realized that I went about my idea or whatever the wrong way. This is where the communications Director title comes in :D The posts that I made here are not the opinions of the OZDGC nor its members.

I am not sorry I communicated my message incorrectly, because I would not have seen the amount of people come forward to show me very good reasons for not starting a new ORG. I have put on 3 **** GOOD AM events since I have been playing and I will continue to do so. I will focus on what I believe to be the best interests of AM Players. Tim, you dont want to come down, that is your choice, and quite frankly probably a good choice. I will now bow out gracefully and focus on my event and the growth of the sport in the new direction as pointed out by people who decided to show me instead of bash me on the forum.

Well,

Ok, the cat is out of the bag!

which by the way is a fake # so highly impossible that you would have found my address through that,



That was really clever of you to change your area code. Thank goodness for Al Gore.

Your resemblance to the great Bob Marley is astounding.


An untethered ego makes room for two feet...in one mouth. .02 /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


But, best of luck in your endeavors.

I will now bow out gracefully and focus on my event and the growth of the sport in the new direction as pointed out by people who decided to show me instead of bash me on the forum.



Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Just to backup my previous post since you want to call me a liar.
The phone number listed on the domain is or was tied to 2 addresses and 2 people.
A 63rd St address and a Granville Rd address, which were both tied to a Jeffery Mitchell. The same Granville Rd address is also tied to another person named Jaime Lang.
It may be a fake number as you state but it still brought me back to you for some reason.
Ok I'm done.

well, most of us have seen this done before with DiscGolfUnited. In the last year, what have they done?? How many joined there ranks. Last time I checked, only a few Austin people were still posting. (prolly non PDGA members trying to get there PDGA message board fix)



To set the record straight: Disc Golf United (http://www.discgolfunited.com/) is a handicapping service started by Harold Duvall and is still alive and well. DGU works in harmony with the PDGA.

Pizza was referring to #$*&$! which is an anti-PDGA organization.

It appears UnitedDiscGol is a filtered word.

Lots of passion in these postings.
Lets focus this passion into something positive!
Go pick up some trash on your course, or donate some plastic to some new players. Let's do something positive today. I think this individual has been put in his place. Mind you his actions are a bit unorthodox, but he claims to be doing this in the interest of disc golfers, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. And in the immortal words of BOB MARLEY.............
" Oh, please dont you rock my boat, cuz I dont want my boat to be rockin'"

Opps, got it backwards.

My guess is this initiative isn't really to form an amateur disc golf association unless Nick is behind it. It's likely an attempt to retain more merchandise by weekend disc golf gamblers playing for the full value of merchandise with no retail/wholesale differential ever being passed on to pros. A more appropriate name might be the Disc Golf Gamblers Association (DGGA) which would likely be available.

If it was truly an amateur disc golf association initiative, then it wouldn't compete with the PDGA. There have to be at least several hundred adult true ams out there nationally who want to compete just for trophies and have low entry fees. There's a vast school market of true ams that still hasn't been tapped. But it will take lots of dedication to pursue that group, perhaps building off the EDGE program. If that's what this true am initiative is all about then more power to you.



Nice to know someone has been listening out there.

A true am org really would be nothing but of benefit to the PDGA, Pro and Prize golfers and as with other sports would likely be tens of thousands of times larger than either. Others can confirm this, but I'm pretty sure most sports start out the other way around from our sport; by developing a true amateur player base first...

I believe Ed had at one time envisioned the "RDGA" or Rec disc golfers assos.
There should be info on the DGA site

http://www.discgolfassoc.com/discsrec.html

Yes, it was a lifetime membership. If I go through my stuff, I could find my RDGA number :D

The ADGA already exists. Arlington Disc Golf Assoc.

Staying on topic though....the PDGA would have a hard time continuing to exist if all of the AM's bounced to this new upcoming governing body.

I wonder if this is Grunion's work? :D