So I just find out that the NT scedule is made. Not posted anywhere I can find, but done in the hands of the tour commitee. Once again the local NT has moved over a MONTH to bump out an event that has been around since 1972 or so. I would like to have that kind of moxie, to just declare my event date and to hell with anyone that says otherwise. I got wind of this a while a ago and spoke with the NT/TD who I thought might involve the local events in the decision. Guess I'm wrong.

Does this heavy handed scheduling happen everywhere?
I would like to see a scheduled date appeal be available.
...and if, as I understand it, the state coordinator MUST approve of all sanctioned events, then they should be involved in all local scheduling.

NJ State Coordinator
BOB Graham

With over 800 events crammed into perhaps 35 weekends (not counting the winter months) the task of scheduling is quite difficult. The best scheduling person or computer software wouldn't be able to schedule in a way that would eliminate all scheduling conflicts.

I believe BOB is referring to the Skylands Classic at Warwick moving its date one month later in 2007 than it was held in 2006, to the weekend that the Jersey Jam was held in 2006. This would most likely force the Jersey Jam to move back to a late July date, which i THINK was when it was held in years prior to 2006. As far as I know attendance at the Jersey Jam won't be negatively impacted because the event moves up by one month. If there would be one event I'd personally not want to negatively impact it would be the Jersey Jam, on the course I designed and an event I was an integral part of for many of the early years. The Jersey Jam isn't being bumped out; it'll move to a date that probably works just as well. I understand BOB's point, but I think he's picking a poor example here.

The way the PDGA schedules is that it schedules from the top down, in an effort to make the Majors and the National Tour dates the first ones scheduled. In order for those events to maximize the potential for the best players in the world to attend those events they need to be scheduled "efficiently". The PDGA is making an attempt to make these events showcase events and with the support of Marketing Director John Duesler hopefully major sponsors can be brought on board; more media attention can be brought to these events; and more spectators can be had.

The PDGA has a difficult task trying to coordinate all these 800+ events. Every single TD can't be consulted prior to establishing dates, or the process would take forever and there'd be just as many unhappy TD's.

The Skylands Classic was held in August in 2005 and was only moved to a July date in 2006 because the August date in 2006 was deemed to be too close to the Worlds to draw many of the top players. It's therefore moving back to its original date.

I'd like to say more about this matter but I'd better stop before I say something I'd later regret.

Dan, it's not so much that the Jam can't easily move to a different date or vice versa. The principle of the thing is that the Jam was asked to move last year to accomodate the Skylands Classic, and now it's being asked to move again. The Devils graciously moved last year, and were more than ready to make the best of the date. Bob told me just last week that he was very happy with the Jam being the weekend before the MSDGC. I guess that's no longer the case.

Personally, I'm somewhat concerned about attending Skylands, MSDGC, and the WVO all in a 3 week period. All three are events that I love, and will be long, traveling weekends for me. We'll see if I can make them all in 2007.

When the date for the 2007 Skylands Classic was being "negotiated" with the PDGA, I reached out to some touring players to get some feedback on which of the 2 weekends the PDGA made available to me would be most likely the preferential date. The one weekend made available was the weekend after the Hambrick in Ohio and also one weekend prior to the weekend that players arrive at the Worlds site in northern Wisconsin. I was told almost unanimously that it wouldn't be advisable to attempt to hold it that weekend, because some players wouldn't want to travel from Ohio to New York and then back to Wisconsin 3 consecutive weekends.

Alternatively, the weekend before the MSDGC was deemed to be more desirable because once they got out east they would get more bang for their travel buck by having the Skylands Classic, MSDGC, and PawPaw 3 consecutive weekends.

The Skylands Classic tends to attract more players from throughout the country, whereas the Jersey Jam draws mostly from the MADC and NEFA regions. After contemplating the pros and cons of either weekend for BOTH events I decided that the Jersey Jam would be less negatively impacted by a July date than the Skylands event would be. If I'm not mistaken the Jersey Jam fills every year and I didn't think that switching it back to July would affect attendance at all.

Again, if there's one event I'd be sensitive to messing up it would be the Jersey Jam. It holds a special place in my heart unlike any other local event.

It was a damned-if-I-do-damned-if-i-don't situation. I made the best decision I felt could be made given the limited choices I had, and given the amount of opinion, research, and feedback I had gotten from a variety of sources.

Scheduling so many events in such a short amount of time is a VERY difficult job. It does seem rather sad, however, that an event that has been held for over 30 years is just pushed out for an NT event 2 years in a row. Having "showcase" events is important for the growth of the sport, but the local events that are being pushed out should at least be informed, if not included, in the decision- the TD of the NT should not really be making decisions about what will or won't effect the other tournament. That just seems to be mutual respect and sportsmanship on the part of the PDGA tour and the TD's involved. There is one other problem with the NT/ MSDGC weekends being back to back- if the schedule from last year basically holds there will be no events for ams in the area for 2 weeks ( the last 2 weeks before the kiddies go back to school, college starts up, and vacation days are over) unless ams want to "donate" to play.
For the record-Dan, I've met you and like you and your son is adorable. But as an am player and a NJ Disc Devil who has worked hard on the Jam for the last 2 years (as have many other members of the Devils for many more years then me), this is rather disheartening news. Much love and effort goes in to our event, as it does in to pretty much every event, be it an NT or a local c-tier. Being treated as a red-head,fatherless, stepchild is rather insulting and aggravating, especially with last year's move to benefit the same event. Communication is a medicine that prevents hurt feelings and bad vibes.

There is one other problem with the NT/ MSDGC weekends being back to back- if the schedule from last year basically holds there will be no events for ams in the area for 2 weeks ( the last 2 weeks before the kiddies go back to school, college starts up, and vacation days are over) unless ams want to "donate" to play.

That's not a problem; that's an opportunity! No one in New Jersey has lobes? I wish that "problem" presented itself somewhere closer to home. :D

Hmm...our Ladies Only event in June, the Jam in July(?), and add an am only event in August, along with our smaller events- busy summer but certainly possible. Gonna go talk to my state co-ordinator about this... Thanks for the suggestion, Mr. Brakel!

Birds move to avoid people, people move to avoid bicycles, bicycles move to avoid cars, cars move to avoid trucks, trucks move to avoid trains, trains move to avoid earthquakes, the earth moves to avoid the sun, the sun moves to avoid the galaxy. Its common sense .

Monte Barret moved to avoid Nicolai Valuev and you would too. He moved to the canvas. Go Nicolai!

in my opinion this is a case of "much ado about nothing".

I'm not telling anyone when to schedule the Jam event. It could be held virtually any weekend in the summer when not in conflict with other local events and people will still flock to this event. That is not the case with an NT event, where scheduling it on a specific weekend can make or break it.

I'll state it again: I was presented with TWO (2) possible dates to run the NT event. After soliciting opinions and listening to feedback, apparently BOB not being one of the voices I elected to consult with, I picked the weekend that in my opinion was the lesser of 2 evils. Is it the perfect choice? NO. Is it the best choice? I believe so.

It is impossible to consult with every TD when the scheduling is being done because there is a ripple effect going on with the scheduling. TD "A" would have to consult with TD "B" who would have to consult with TD "C" etc. The process would take forever.

I also had another important consideration when picking the weekend for the NT event. Steve Brinster and I have been working with the Sugarbush Resort in Vermont on a very exciting opportunity for the entire Disc Golf community. At the time of the scheduling we were seriously considering moving the NT event from Warwick to Vermont for 2007. In fact that was the direction we were leaning in until the last few weeks. The August date at Sugarbush would have worked for the NT event but the July date would not work for them. So the discussion with the PDGA was that we'd take the August date for an NT event, allwoing us some time to determine if that NT event would be at Warwick or in Vermont. At this point we're leaning towards having the Skylands Classic be the NT event in August and having a Supertour event in Vermont in September.

"Communication is a medicine that prevents hurt feelings and bad vibes". Agreed. I'd also suggest that this forum wasn't the best choice for airing hurt feelings. I also think it is quite overdramatic to interpret the way the scheduling decision was made as "insulting", for many of the reasons I stated above.

And yes it happens everywhere that has an NT or Supertour event.

dan and gary are correct. the only way for the scheduling to work is top down (big events first) with the b and c tiers filling in afterwards. events are asked to move around on a regular basis- while it is unfortunate that the jam has to move two years in a row it is what the circumstances apparently dictate.

Being one of the people highly involved in running the Skylands Classic, I know it wasn't the intention for our event to conflict with other local tourneys, however, as Dan has stated, he was given few options. We we're appreciative that you moved the Jersey Jam this past summer, and am sorry to hear that you are hurt/annoyed that this may be the case this year. Jersey jam is loved by so many disc golfers in the area, any weekend you run it Bob, i am sure that it will fill. I guess i am missing what the complaint is? One would think that the NJ State rep. would be more than thrilled that our area is bringing it's 3rd NT back in 2007, which has established itself as one of the best NTs out there. Local and regional support is important in the growth and success of this disc golf in the area. It's important to look at the perspectives of others than just our own. The Mid-atlantic and New England disc golf community is amazing, let's keep things positive.

Scheduling is just scheduling. There are 60 or so A-tiers, NTs and Majors so you all have to give a little and get a little.

In Michigan, like Texas, there are literally two or three tournaments every weekend. Everyone just has to deal with the fact that sometimes they might not get their weekend, or sometimes the PDGA might not take their money, or sometimes your tournament is on the same day as some other tournament.

It does not matter if you run good tournaments that people want to play.

It does matter to the players. I made the mistake of leaving a very long standing B-Tier in place against a new A-Tier that ended up on it's date. With permission from both TDs.

The players were the ones that came down on me. There were a few that really wanted to play in both events and were very unhappy that we had allowed that conflict. The bad part was that there was no other weekend to move to in that time frame that didn't create a closer conflict.

Hi Lesli, I think BOB was not thrilled since there are VERY few PDGA Events in Joisey (2 in 06) and the Jam has been going since 1974. BTW August was the month I ran the Jam for 12 years. :D

I understand the the concept of working from the big events on down but we always considered traditional dates for long running events. If I was the TD I would be a little ticked off too, but what are you going to do, fight city hall?? :confused:

Hey it sounds like the NT has had to move weekends as well, are they happy about it, maybe they are maybe they arn't but to make it work and have a stellar event they are willing to change to accomadate their field of players.

We have also changed weekends every year for several years in a row at the Beaver State Fling, in Portland Oregon the only NT in the Pacific North West, Last year we moved because of the west coast swing and this year we are being bumped again for a similar reason. Majors and NT are worked out on a national scene while local events are worked out on a state scene, usually with the state coordinator. If the TD of a long standing event was left out of the loop with the State Coordinator then someone needs to apologies! But everyone will likely need to change and be ok with that. :cool:

Established event from 1974? Heck I run the Battle of Saratoga which first took place in 1777, that's 229 years ago. I think if I can move a 229 year old event for an NT, then anybody can. I have done 4 so far and they range from early october to November 2, because A tiers and NT's come first, the USDGC always happens in October and I schedule around it too.

It's the law. Local events schedule around NT's. That's it.

I hate seeing and understanding both sides of the coin. It's much easier to get #$*&$! at the guy who is blatantly wrong.

Well,

I don't like, this "top down" method of scheduling. It seems done by only the people running the "top" events.
I understand that these people have specific limits as to when they can run their "top" events. Consideration is due them and is given at nearly all times.*
But you should include representation from the local areas surrounding these events, in the decisions. We used to have Regional Coordinators that handled this. We have local umbrella clubs like MADC and NEFA that have taken on this role. They should be included in the process. Were they?

Dan and I had spoken of the specific case of his NT moving back to the weekend before the MSDGC. I presented my view to him and he to me. His adamant beats my adamant. True he is not telling me when to have my event, but he is telling me when I can't...

The PDGA Commitee that determines the calender we all schedule a lot of our lives around, has a tough task.
It IS difficult to schedule a lot of events and not to interfere with other's plans. No one, not even Morgan, can dispute that.
I would like to see more B-tier and establised non sanctioned events given consideration. And more charity based events too, but that's off topic.

NJ State Coordinator
BOB Graham

*Case in point, the Jersey Jam has moved to accomodate A tiers and NT events and even the World Championships. All while communicating and dialogueing with the various TD's in the area. (I didn't know about Pokerrpalooza till like three weeks before our events, sorry about that.)

The "top down" method, it's the law of the west. Small boats steer to avoid the big ships.

I suggest making Jersey Jam a NT and it will steer the other ships

Forgive me if this has been asked and/or covered somewhere on the MB...but I see Am Worlds is in June of this year...will this become a scheduling trend for '08 and beyond?

Forgive me if this has been asked and/or covered somewhere on the MB...but I see Am Worlds is in June of this year...will this become a scheduling trend for '08 and beyond?



Huh? The 2007 Am Worlds (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=606715&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) start on Sunday, July 22 and conclude on Saturday, July 28, 2007.

I think you mean Am Nationals. They want to connect the Am Nationals with the Great Lakes Open one week apart so both events can use the temporary Toboggan course. So, 'yes' it's likely a trend for the future if using that course continues to be preferred.

My bad...carry on!

It is a shame that long established events get moved around when it comes to top-down scheduling. Our event (Texas States) had to move in order to become an NT event in 2006. We ran States in October of 2005 and turned around and pulled off an NT event about 6 months later. (I'm glad we got a whole year off this year!)

It seems like the PDGA is doing it right though...they push down most all A-tiers and below to the state coordinator (GnD) to handle while they focus on the majors. There is about the same amount of staff organizing the 12+ majors as we have organizing a single one...or maybe two in a busy year. I don't envy them their jobs.

Still I sympathize with folks that have to move their events because of scheduling. But like it was said up-thread: If you run a good event, people will come. Keep the faith - passion for this sport (like you have) is a very good and precious thing!

They keep the A-tiers and above. I get the B-Tiers and below.

They keep the A-tiers and above. I get the B-Tiers and below.



Aren't you lucky. :)