This is for the local DG in central Texas:

Here recently I have made comments on this board concerning the local tournament scene.
After further review of the play(hehe), I was wrong in the forum that I brought it up in.
I really never intended to hurt anybodies feelings, I just thought I would speak my mind
and it would be okay.
Apparently it wasn't and I did more harm than good.
I have alot of respect for each and every TD here in sintex,
they are ALL hard working individuals who are dedicated to DG and don't
deserve to be ragged on. I wasn't really trying to rag versus ask questions and point out
some of my observations. I didn't even do that very well.

The area DG has been losing alot of Open guys, for whatever reasons.
Mostly because they feel that everything around here is Am orientated and they are getting
left out.
We have a lot of open guys and yet we only play for each others money. We are urged to get better
and compete in a higher division only to get there and play a glorified mini.

In some ways I feel that the Td's really don't want any Open guys at their event
because it takes spots away from the ams, the more spots
Open guys take up the less money a TD will make off of ams!
I am tried of hearing from somebody "if you don't like it step up" What is that crap?
Do the TD's want us to go out and raise our own money to play for? What am I expected to step up and do?
Run my own tourney? These are the outs that some TD's have been using to get people off their back,
well these tactics are over with they no longer work anymore.
The words "he is sick of Austin dg" are true, I am tired of the raping of ams and the lack of respect for the local Pro!
Ams are not cash cows and Pros worked very hard to get to the level they are at, Please show us DG'ers some respect and you the TD will get the respect you deserve.

This is not intended to be a bashing on anybody, but merely my observation that ALOT and I mean ALOT of people around here agree with.

BRAVO!
I agree with you
A t.d. puTTs a lot of work into running event and Ams is the way to get paid for that work. THAT IS BOTTOM LINE!! Don't let anyone tell you different
.
Sure a T.D. should get something for his efforts....not to the extend of impacting the player. T.D.s need to have as much help as possible to get over the fact they should be paid Cause of the entire work puTT into the event. If a T.D. was blessed with a GREAT BIG SUPPORTING cast. Running event would not be all that work.
An example would be TWC(%300 payout for all divisions). Ed and I may be the coordinators but many people support the event making the job much easier to the accountable ones (Which is the only real reason to have a TD is to be the vocal point for the event.) I would like to see fewer events and the events headed up by committee. Lesser state :Drun 1 or 2 events a year and their events are on top of everyones list to play
We don�t need a bunch of low quality events. Texas T.D.�S need to join to make high quality events. And that don�t mean �I�ll send you a 100dollars worth of disc for your event.� Texas T.D.�s need to set away from �I run event s in my park only�. We can join to make the state of Texas all it can be.
I recently lent a hand to the VPO�.Do I live in Arlington? No
Do I play veterans� park every weekend? No
But I do want to see Texas have the best tournaments in the nation
Texas T.D.�s need to drop their local pride and move towards state pride.

What have they put in the water up there?

Vinster, you been reading my mind or what?

I would love to see several TDs get together and create a series out of their events... something like a Texas Players Cup. Players get points for their placement in each event, culminating in a revolving final, where the winners get their name put on a large cup and displayed at each event. $$ go from each player to added cash at the final (not just pros, but ams too paid as a bonus or to offset the or supplement the players pack).

If TDs got together and came up with standards and shared resources, particularly stock, we could buy in massive bulk and reduce overhead. I'd like to see standards such as a consistent price for discs (I've seen Stars for sale at $18, $17, $16 and lower this year, I sold them at $14 last year at LOSO, probably a mistake), consistent Logo for custom discs and shirts (can then be shared and not wasted), consistent formats... 4 rounds of 18, 3 + a final 9, whatever, no two meter rule (had to throw that in James), consistent players packs, payouts (pick your own), etc.

So I'm all in and would love to see us pull something like that off. BTW, charity tourneys should be excluded as they have their own demons to deal with. Each TD would still run their own event with their own sponsors, but their bottom line would be stronger as a result of this.

So what do you say Coastal Clash, Outlaws, LOSO, COTO, etc. etc.?

So how do you really feel about it James besides your hit and run comment? I would like to know, you have been around for a LOOOOOOOOOng time, **** dinosaur. :p


Basically, hasn't bryans idea been tossed around before on this board? What stopped the TD's from pulling together before? Nothing? Lack of implemetation? What? There is already 3 series in Texas, how would adding another fix anything?

lack of implementation, time, distance, jobs, family, minis, tourneys, lovers, ex-lovers, future lovers...

I think it would help create standards and make it more economically feasible to run the tourneys. I get stuck with tons of custom merch at the end of my events, and all I can do is give them away to other tourneys as sponsor items. One common logo and theme would allow us to share the costs and move the custom merch from event to event.

I think an organized statewide tour would be a good thing. I'm not sure how many TDs would be willing to go along with standards they may not personally agree with to make it work.

We do need a statewide vehicle to use in approaching sponsors that have statewide advertising interests.

Not a new idea at all. It's been kicked around twice (thrice?) since I've been playing.


I just don't see the bigger TD's playing nice together.


And Brian, the lack of enforcement is probably the biggest thing I see keeping this from happening. How do you stop a TD from not complying with the standards in place?

A place the size of Texas could probably use the technique of interlocking tours. We had northern, southern and Twin Cities tours one year where 2-4 events from each of the regional tours were designated as State tour events. This way the regional tours kept their identity but could work together to coordinate and strengthen the State Tour events.

There are so many plusses to this idea, that those that do not comply are not invited back and do not get the financial incentives or as gary says the potential for bigger sponsors. Chris was able to pull in big sponsors, cuz he would tell them I have thousands of players from around texas. Good point Gary. Anyway, I don't see non-compliance as a problem, we would meet, negotiate it out, and sign off on it. And then Vinnie would get after them if they don't play nice!

NO! I'll get after 'em ;)

I've got it, an ArkLaTexHoma tour. :cool:

Thanks Chuck, I hope to be there for '07 Worlds!

Where would a perspective summit location be and what would be discussed and who would be invited? ENOUGH TALK START DOING!

like I said, I'm all in. interested TDs can post here and then we can come up with a date to meet. teams at wimberly might be a good place.

nice..... teams it is....
Houston you-all going to play with the rest of Texas?
We will need the mover and shakers.
I know the few that would agree...and the rest of you better make you events good...cause folks like me will be lobbing players not to attend events that think its all about themselves

I may or may not be playing teams, but I'll be there to meet either way. Friday before or sat night, whenever. Before you go a speculatin, I was asked to play, but a better player may be available to take my spot, so i told the captain to do whatever he needs to do, cuz i was only playing to help out, it's usually too cold for me!!

Basically, hasn't bryans idea been tossed around before on this board? What stopped the TD's from pulling together before? Nothing? Lack of implemetation? What? There is already 3 series in Texas, how would adding another fix anything?


Well, yes it has, in some form or fashion. My recollection is that there were some issues with "coordination."

Your a pretty coordinated guy, with a decent outlook on DG. Will you help the TD's get along? You have been involved in a lot of Texas DG I think you would have alot of good input!

Vinnie,

You have a PM.

The last discussion centered around starting small, and having regional people work together. Remember, we discussed ad naseum regions for the state. Remember.

Personally, I don't think having TDs work together is that big of a roadblock. Just witness the Schmidt-Miller willingness.

My advice is rather than tackling state-wide coordination, or trying to having every region do something, just do it at a Georgetown to San Antonio level first, and if it happens to conflict with PDGA sanctioned events, make parts, or all of it unsanctioned.

We can talk about this more, but each event would be financially autonomous and self serving just as they are now and should forever be. The difference is adherence to a set of standards, and the willingness to create and then purchase one set of custom merchandise for payout/sales.

Just need to work on how a final would come off and what each event would contribute to that. We also needs a points guy Gary since you have nothing to do now that Chris left :)

We need to stop competing with each other and work towards everyone's mutual benefit. Texas Player's Cup, who will fill it??

V-man - If your meaning of "playing nice" means something like having the Texas States Championship move around from city to city, then that probably isn't in the cards. But if you meant something on the order of being involved in Texas States, then we'd welcome you and anyone else's participation.

The whole idea of Texas TDs getting together and creating a state series has been talked about before. I think that the hang-up was always coming up with an incentive for TDs across the state to want to give up a buck or two per player to go towards a championship series held somewhere else.

I think we could be easily persuaded to participate in a State Series of some kind in exchange for more participation in Texas States on the part of other TDs. :D We are about to start moving our meetings to weekends to make it easier for folks to be able to attend them. Anytime you want to come and lend a hand, we'll provide you with a bed and meals!

I agree. Less events, more filling...mwaning, not just more attending, but more satisfying.

Youknow you can count on help from my end.......now if I can get my BOBBLEHEAD to act right life would be easier :D(no I'm not talking about Toolen, he's an OOMPA).

Seriously, Vinnie and I have had many discussions on many things DG related. This could be a good idea that turned into a big boom for the TX disc golf scene. Although, as it has been stated previously, it would be a daunting task to get all of the heads to agree on something that may be taking a small slice of their pie now for a larger return later. I'm directly seeing a benefit of a co-op effort this weekend with the things Vinnie and the RR Club have done to help us out and that will be returned when Outlaws comes around. It's not because I feel we owe them anything, it's just the right thing to do.

So yeah, count me in. I have some ideas and some input that may be valuable.

I agree. Less events, more filling...mwaning, not just more attending, but more satisfying.



Miller should be contacting you any time now ;).

I just read this whole thread! I enjoyed it! Sound's sweet! :cool:

so what tournaments would Austin keep? please dont say Outlaw Singles

I don't think it's about what existing tournaments are "kept", but more of which ones are supported by this grouping of TDs.

I'm also not an Austin area golfer, so I may be ignorant by making this comment, but I don't see why Outlaws wouldn't be one of them. I know Vinnie and at least half of the RR Dragons can be a pain in the donkey ;) but that club puts on a great event. Not to mention they are usually one of the top added cash events due to the sposorship $$$$$ they raise.

Suppose you were running a pop stand selling Coke and Pepsi. Suppose you made a buck on every Coke you sold but were losing 25 cents on every Pepsi. How might you change your pop stand operation?

Ams entry fees are Coke and pro entry fees are Pepsi. I sell the Pepsi because the Coke drinkers like to hang out with the Pepsi drinkers, I suppose, and because one of our key volunteers switched from Coke to Pepsi. But I'm always happier to see lots of Coke drinkers in line than I am to see the Pepsi guys.

The laws of economics almost always win. The laws of economics say that TDs have almost no interest in running pro divisions. TDs lose money on every pro who plays, unless they run it like a mini.

I can skim $300 cash off 50 amateurs and give it to 20 pros, and 20 people love me. Or I can use that $300 to pay for $600 worth of added prizes for the amateurs and 50 players love me. So the laws of psychology aren't working for the pros either.

Quite frankly, I have no idea why amateur TDs like Rhett bust their butts trying to raise small amounts of added cash for the pros. Low self-esteem? Rhett does not seem like a low self-esteem guy. It makes no sense to me.

You can go back to amateur if you think playing for prizes is better than what you have. Everyone can go back this year if they want. Do what works for you.

I'm in. I was in favor last time we talked about something like this. However, I am unable to attend Texas Teams.

Didn't Gary set up a yahoo group for TD's?????? I tried to join I think. Or this is just as good of a place.

BTW, I called Gimp this last year asking about becoming a "Qualifier" for this next years Texas States. But we are unable to work anything out. I think he already new he was not going to do that this year.

Ok, here is the deal.

1st step, get a list of independent tournaments that want to "join" the group. Clubs or one tournament guys like me would be the main tournaments that would do it.

Split the cost of a trailer between all the tournaments. (we could find a used one pretty cheap)

Have each TD donate a Table and/or tent to the group. (may be used)

At each tournament, either the TD or someone from the area of the next tournament stays afterwards and takes the trailer and left over plastic (will have to be inventoried) home with them.

the next TD pays the a set cost per disc for the left over inventory. (per plastic type)

You can have each tournament donate something to the trailer after each tournament (or $100 to be used to replace something)

The most expensive year would be the first year. If 10 tournaments signed up, I would say it would cost about $150 to $200 per tournament to get this idea started. (I think we could find a good trailer for under $1000 that would work)

Tell me what you think. If there is any interest, I will start looking for a cheap trailer.

BTW, no one would have to change more than me to do this type of deal. I would have to really think about it. I have a set standard that I run my tournament at that is quite a bit different than most tournaments these days. (ie, number of players paid out, players packs, and added value to the Am's payouts)

I don't think it's about what existing tournaments are "kept", but more of which ones are supported by this grouping of TDs.

I'm also not an Austin area golfer, so I may be ignorant by making this comment, but I don't see why Outlaws wouldn't be one of them. I know Vinnie and at least half of the RR Dragons can be a pain in the donkey ;) but that club puts on a great event. Not to mention they are usually one of the top added cash events due to the sposorship $$$$$ they raise.



No, your right.I've always heard Vinnie puts on a great tournament but I wouldnt know never been to one where he is the TD because of the holiday date that its on. There is only 3 big tourneys a year here now-Outlaw Singles,Red Rock Show,and COTO.It would suck having to narrow it down to just 1 tourney even though Round Rock has more courses within a small drive of each other that would make a perfect A-tier- Old Settlers,Wilco,Rivery.It seems that everyone wants to have 1 big tournament in each region which would exclude great events such as Red Rock Show,Twin Parks tournaments etc...if thats not the case then its a great idea to have an A-tier or higher in each region.

I heard a rumor last weekend that next year all A-tiers and above have to have seperate Pro and Am weekends,there will be no more Pro/Ams.

I heard a rumor last weekend that next year all A-tiers and above have to have seperate Pro and Am weekends,there will be no more Pro/Ams.



That would be stupid. Several tournament here in Texas has tried that. It does not work all that well. It taxes the TD staff and makes it harder from some out of town players to make the event (pro's traveling with Am's)

However, you do get those few guys who play both.

I think that rumor was for NT events, not A-Tiers.

Didn't Gary set up a yahoo group for TD's?????? I tried to join I think. Or this is just as good of a place.


Yes, there is a Yahoo group for TX TDs, and all TDs need to get signed up to hash out the schedule for next year. If you didn't get an invite it's because I don't have a valid email address for you. Invitations were sent to the addresses that I have.

Ching...quit looking backwards and try to look forward.
And just so you know the name Texas State Championships was in Austin way before Houston had it....and that is not to be meant as a poke....cause regional wide championships is what we need. And the Championship could be anywhere; I would think a part of the state more accessible to all.
like WACO.
Bruce thanks for chiming in�.That�s the kind of thinking that has to stop.
As far as that goes Ams should not be on the same playing field as pros.
Ams should have their weekend, ladies should have there weekend, and pros should have their weekend. All this could happen on the same weekend, but working together to better the sport. We need to quit catering to the player and cater to the sport. I could care less who loves me for my decisions at an event. If it betters the sport then I don�t care how some REC.player feels.
Bruce you are avocet of ratings and believe the Ams should have an opportunity to have ratings. I disagree �..Int/rec players are the players that you see on weekends at a ball golf course that play friendly games amongst themselves.(These divisions seed sandbagging and basically run off beginner players in participating in tournaments.) Let�s start this with best practice ideas, Nez brought up good examples of mirroring other regions, which is a great starting point. What is successful and what doesn't work should be addressed? Implement standards and guidelines leading to a Championship.
Texas Teams is a good place to speak face to face. But a true summit is not the answer. We have to continually comminuting between each of ourselves. We all have the responsibilty to lobby each other to make this work

Bruce thanks for chiming in�.That�s the kind of thinking that has to stop. As far as that goes Ams should not be on the same playing field as pros. Ams should have their weekend, ladies should have there weekend, and pros should have their weekend.

I'm totally for that. You take the pros and I'll take the amateurs and the women. :D

Bruce, please leave the Pro/Am economics for another thread.

Vinnie and Brian, please remember that when there is a Texas TD summit, and everyone throws out their ideas, and things start to get complicated, and scheduling concerns get bigger and bigger, please consider the thought that it can still be done at a local level, without the consent of the PDGA. Also, don't let the name of a tourney get in the way of progress.

I say we name it after a State fair icon and call it "The Big Tex".

Like I said I'm in, but I would want a written agreement between the TDs. I honor your word, but a paper reminds us what we agreed to, and no one can say "i don't remember that part of the deal!" I have no problem putting an agreement together, but we are putting the cart before the horse. We need to see who's at the table first, and I don't think TSC should be a part of the mix. You should remain a stand-alone "A" tier. Another "B" tier in the Houston area would be fine with me. This is not a competition with TSC, just another series to benefit the players, create some standards, increase attendance, and maximize resources.

So lets start the list...

LOSO (Brian Schmidt)
Outlaws (Vinnie Miller)
Mr. Jim's Carrolton Open (Brian James)

Not sure where you are at on this Jason, so let us know if you are in with 2007 VPO??

Once we get to 7 or 8, we need to stop. Let's start small for the first year and get our shiite together.

p.s. Bryan, I don't think we need to standardize on payout. everyone is going to have a different amount of added cash. plus most of use the PDGA tables anyways. I'm negotiable on format standards. What works at Live Oak, doesn't necessarily mean it will work on your courses.

Bruce it sounds like you want the money making side of it.

Ching...quit looking backwards and try to look forward.




Vinnie - I'm glad to hear that we won't be re-hashing that topic then.

I'm all in favor of taking our state to higher level. We have a tremendous base of players and courses here in Texas. We should capitalize on that. In my opinion, the state of disc golf in Texas seems to be pretty healthy judging by the sheer number of players and events. I don't think that dimished participation in the Pro ranks bespeaks of a problem in Texas disc golf...it probably has a lot more to do with the constantly increasing entry fees. There are a great number of us players who would probably prefer playing in higher divisions (MPM & MPG) if the entry fees were more reasonable, or if there was a better chance that we could occasionally sneak into the end of the cash line. As it stands right now, a highly skilled player can generally make more playing am than they can in the Pro ranks. This isn't a problem in just Texas...it's all over the entire nation.

GnD - Can you research Texas tournaments and figure out how many tournament player rounds were played this year as compared to last?

Heading to VPO, talk amongst yourselves, back Monday to check on the list!

Disc golf in Texas has always been and it's still gonna be why? Greed!!!! You all need to chile out ;) and lead be example. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif TD'S have some work to do. Looks like things are going to get worst before they get any better ;)

why do all you want to be so organized? is there just ONE right way to do things? TDs need players more than the other way around... just like the PDGA needs TDs more than TDs need the PDGA. and what about "standards" what kind of standards? division layouts? payout schedules? i applaud the efforts to do something different as long as it is not a consolidation of power intio a few hands.. those efforts are bound to struggle in the long run

I agree

BTW, my very first tournament was the TEXAS STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS in Carrollton in 1988.

not that it matters anymore.

Brian, I don't use the PDGA standards..... I haven't in a long time.

I post my payout % of field on the web site and in my flyers.

I did switch to using the more level payout numbers a few years ago, only because I don't have my old numbers on my laptop.

i applaud the efforts to do something different as long as it is not a consolidation of power intio a few hands.. those efforts are bound to struggle in the long run





I couldn't disagree more. Power NEEDS to be in the hands of a few. Texas DG has to have an entity that promotes a strict guideline for TD's and players alike, not just the PDGA's loose guidlines. Texas needs to stand up on it's own two feet and be powerful. The free-for-all that has been going on in this gigantic state has done nothing but deteriorate the moral fabric of this great sport. I'm not saying EVERY event in Texas is crap or the TD's are crap but there needs to be some kind of structure and guideline that other TD's will notice around here and want to become a part of. One thing WE ALL agree on is we want the BEST for Texas DG. So, before people start planting seeds of destruction think about what you have now.

Just my thoughts.

The standards that need to be set:
Single point of reference for points information.
Single point of reference for news and schedule.
Single schedule of retail pricing.
Coordinated offering of non plastic payout items.

Things that would be nice:
The ability to cashout online, anytime during the series.
Food availability at all member events (around $5).
Banners and information about all events at every event.

Things that don't need to be consistent (just advertised):
Entry fees.
Payout percentages (if not using the PDGA standards).
Payout procedures (pick your own vs pre-bagged).

So, before people start planting seeds of destruction think about what you have now.



What you have now is a very large state with a lot of TDs that will have an independent event instead of a coordinated event if there is a problem with scheduling or sanctioning. Can you tell me of any way that I can force a TD to not run a tournament on a certain weekend or on a certain course if they really want to ?

There is no single seat of power, and no one small group that can control Disc Golf in Texas. Even if every tournament player in the state signed an agreement to only attend events certified by an elected group of people, there would be enough new players by the end of the year that non-certified events could survive or even thrive.

I'm not saying EVERY event in Texas is crap or the TD's are crap but there needs to be some kind of structure and guideline that other TD's will notice around here and want to become a part of

that's a great quote :confused:

jeff, i am really not trying to be destructive or even critical; for that matter. just asking what kind of standards? for example... lets say the "Texas TDs" decided to run division based events. ok fine. then a TD comes along who wants to run a single Pro only or Am only event. is that TD now part of hte "out" group?

on of the things i'd like to see, both at the pdga level and more local levels are some standards like Gary mentioned... whats our desired level of service [provided to players.

i just believe anything that is restrictive will lead to fracturing before the movement ever takes shape. keeping standards as broad as possible and at the highest level (as opposed to detail-oriented) allows more TDs, players, and everyone to participate. maybe that is not possile for a points series, i can easily see why it wouldnt be. a series event should be recognizable as part of the series.

Hey y'all, my name was thrown around in this thread, so I'm gonna give you my opinion. :)

Start small and figure out a great main goal. You can't solve all the problems of the world on the first try. What is it you guys want to accomplish? Is it something as simple as "the top 10 tournaments in Texas should never conflict with each other?"

Of course you will have to figure our how you pick the top-10, and there will be issues with that.

But start small and build up. And don't forget that if you are trying to dictate terms, it will never work. You need to have something to offer that makes tourneys want to be part of the Series. Probably in the beginning each big tourney will have to give up something in order to build the series, but there has to be something good for everybody other that just "having to do things not my way."

Building on what Rhett is saying. Here is what I would do:

1) I would start building towards a Top tier Texas event. Right now that happens to be Texas States. I agree the event should move around Texas but that isn't going to happen in the near future.

2) In order to play Texas States you have to of played in X number of other major events in Texas. For example, 2 A tier events, 3 B tier events or 4 C tier events.

This requires that Nez (TS TD) and the other major TDs in the state come to an agreement (which events are actually qualifiers for example). In return the TDs at the other major events agree to support TS (monetarily and promotionally).

3) The TS NT has to be big enough and rich enough to make it worthwhile to play the qualifiers for out of state players.

4) TS states needs to give back to the smaller events in terms of promotion, extra proceeds and left over materials so that the relationship is two way.

The structure is pretty simple and it means that you are feeding up from smaller events to the big event; the return is that more players will be driven into the smaller events in order to qualify for TS.

Putting it harshly, the biggest TDs in TX can make this happen, frankly it won't matter what the independents or smaller TDs want. The structure will drive players into associated events and away from smaller events that aren't part of the overall "series;" pyscological forces, competitive forces, and fitting into the larger picture forces will drive players to want to play in the overall series as opposed to other events.

This discussion is going in too many directions.

Jeff wants TDs to go out get more sponsorship so that the pro purse is increased and players gets lots of amenities without it coming out of the entry fees.

Vinnie wants large open fields (no Round Rock pun intended) and huge galleries.

Brian wants to share the cost of the merch for a series of events and create a bonus for a rotating final.

The discussion would be a lot easier if there were some common goals that were trying to be acheived.

Who audits the TD'S? who checks the sponsor list? huh!!

Lyle,

How big would the payout have to be to make an event so much of a must play event that it would effect your playing habits?

Where would the cash to support that purse come from ?

Great posts, Lou and Rhett. It would help if people people could agree on goals. Simple goals. Just what is it that each person wants? I hear a bunch of different things.

This discussion will spin and spin and spin, then hyzer out and die way off target, but Vinnie is quite a putter, he might be able to put it in.

Lyle,

How big would the payout have to be to make an event so much of a must play event that it would effect your playing habits?

Where would the cash to support that purse come from ?



The $64,000 question.

I'm betting 10,000 would do it for the top event. TS was almost there last year (I recall $7,000 but may be way off on that number, I'll look tomorrow, but look at it like this, 30 events each donating $100 to the top event and if my $7,000 is on you're at $10,000).

Simple goal: a series leading to a top event.

Both sides benefit, the series and the top event.

Texas can pull something like this off because we have so many quality A and B events.

In terms of sponsorships, I'm betting that TS is getting close to $1,000 from other TDs at the current time anyway (if not more). This simply formalizes the process and provides a direct incentive for TDs to donate.

Even as it currently stands, The TS NT pulls a lot of players. This structure simply allows the rest of the events in the state to cash in on the NT cache for a small cost.

For your first year, you can have a series and keep it simple:

1. Decide which events and divisions will be counted for series points with no negotiation and change in the normal format of existing events. Take them just as the TDs want them and have always run them, sanctioned or unsanctioned.

2. Have players fund the tour prizes by signing up and paying something like $10, at events that are part of the series, to join the tour if they want to be tracked for series awards.

3. In Wisconsin, they have a special black award disc designed for the series each year (now highly prized) that is given to the winner of each division (that's tracked for series points) at each event. TDs estimate how many of these will be needed for each event and the total discs needed for the series are ordered at the beginning of the year with a few extras just in case.

4. Decide what form of points tracking will be used for awards. The Minnesota and now NEFA system works well for series like this where players only use their 4 best finishes out of 10 events. That way, players don't feel pressured to play all of the events to cash in the final awards, but playing more events can improve their position.

5. Don't mess with a special tour finale event. Final awards will be given out at the last scheduled event which won't count any more than any other event. That event can certainly rotate to different locations in the future for events that can or want to be scheduled later in the year.

Maybe Texas is more complicated for some reason but here's an example of a way to get you started and ramp up from there in the future.

Darn good advice Chuck! Thanks!

I especially like the sounds of your item #4
NEFA system works well for series like this where players only use their 4 best finishes out of 10 events. That way, players don't feel pressured to play all of the events to cash in the final awards, but playing more events can improve their position.



I like the incentive that playing more events works to a player's advantage toward improving their ranking.

I also forgot to mention that I really liked the idea (Brian's maybe??) of having a shared pool of payout inventory that gets sent around the tour events for a "pick your own plastic" type payout system.

It is very expensive and impractical for most clubs/organizations to maintain a large enough inventory for pick your own payouts. This makes it very practical suddenly, but it also implies some financial responsibility on the part of participants to pay for all of their consumed merchandise. I suppose that along with that has to be arrangements spelling out the handling of all discrepancies, disputes and remedies.

Some club/org/indiv has to be willing to manage the entire "warehousing" of the stamped inventory and then handle the shipping/receiving of it back in. I do agree that although it presents challenges, none are too difficult to overcome.

Thanks again for the input Chuck and Brian! It will be valuable as we put something together down here! :D

BTW - I've noticed at least 3 people posting up that they wanted "standards" for these events...

I'm curious about that. What events have and have not met certain "standards" in your books?

I think someone said "pick-your-own-plastic" payout system. I agree that this is great from a player's perspective, but impractical for anyone except one of the commercial series...Gimp managed it for a long time because of it being a series. For clubs or organizers like Bryan, or Brian, or our clubs then pick-your-own probably isn't too much of an option. We've only done the last 3-4 Tx States with pick-your-own. (Many thanks go out to Gimp and John Houck for working with us to provide that payout option!)

What else hasn't met the standards though?

Did the TX10 cause players go out in droves and play TX10 events ?
(I will use TX10 numbers because I have access to those.)


The TX10 finals paid out the following (includes bonus money):
<table border="1"><tr><td>Year</td><td>AM</td><td>Pro</td><td>Total</td><td>Ams</td><td>Pros</td><td>Tot
</td></tr><tr><td>2001</td><td>$4579</td><td>$3695</td><td>$8274</td><td>71</td><td>44</td><td>115
</td></tr><tr><td>2002</td><td>$9519</td><td>$6756</td><td>$16265</td><td>113</td><td>69</td><td>182
</td></tr><tr><td>2003</td><td>$11303</td><td>$10612</td><td>$21915</td><td>157</td><td>87</td><td>234
</td></tr><tr><td>2004</td><td>$17858</td><td>$13840</td><td>$30698</td><td>179</td><td>127</td><td>306
</td></tr><tr><td>2005</td><td>$10990</td><td>$4652</td><td>$15642</td><td>159</td><td>43</td><td>202
</td></tr><tr><td>2006</td><td>$7516</td><td>$6943</td><td>$14459</td><td>160</td><td>77</td><td>237</tr></td></table>

You can see that the tour was exploding until it became a standard event run by different TDs. The tour bonus was still there, the promise of a big bonus at the end of th eyear was still there, the players weren't. Chris was back in 2006, but he needed more time to turn it around.

Hmmm...interesting numbers for Texas 10 series, but I'm more interested in the numbers from PDGA sanctioned events Gary... At least I'm assuming that we're interested in the overall status of disc golf in Texas tournaments. I think that there are tons more PDGA ones than T10 ones and they'd be more representative.

Still...it's interesting to see the wild fluctuations in Pro attendance at the T10s over the years. With the exceptions of 2003 and 2005 there seemed to be a pretty consistent ratio of 2:1 am to pros.

I wonder what that ratio is in all of the big tourney's around the state?

That's not from the series, that's from the single sanctioned A-tier at the end of the year.

My point being the amount of added cash each year and the fact that even that much was not enough to make people change their habits that much. There's a large number of touring players in Texas that didn't attend enough events to qualify for the bonus cash. In 2004 there was over $20K added.

It will take a lot of money to really influence the way people attend events. Probably enough to effect the payout of those events. You need another hook besides the added cash.

No hook needed. These are already established events just getting together to create a series and be more economically feasible to run. I'd like to see some standardization, but could live without it. I'd like to see a revolving final with some added cash from the series, but it's not a deal killer for me. The Texas Players cup champions will be the persons who can perform consistently across several diverse events. I don't think we should be creating a new Texas 10, whatever. Whatever I save as a TD will go back into my event. If we TDs were in it for the money, we'd be running ball golf tourneys, not DG tourneys. Believe me I've done both. Off to the course!

Gary - There were a lot of things going on for that 2005 Tx-10 series...but a lot of it speaks to Himing (a great and seasoned TD) not running them that year...

My whole point for bringing up the question of how many player rounds were played the last couple of years is that there seems to have been a boom in the number of tournaments. While some events have experienced lower than usual attendance, generally speaking because there are simply more tournaments being held, the number of player rounds probably has increased.

I'm failing to see anything that seems "broken" and in need of fixing. Brian mentioned "standards" again, but no specifics.

Could we (as TDs/organizers) make things even better? Yep. But there has to be some incentive to want to take the extra time and trouble to build a statewide alliance... I'm seeing the possibility of having a common theme-stamped inventory of merchandise for pick-your-own payouts and a roving finale with a bonus system.

All of the existing major events should become qualifiers for a NEW event finale. The hosting city can be drawn for out of the pool of willing participants. In order to be a participant, you must ante up a sum of say $1200 in order to fund the initial stock of inventory.

Now who is willing to play? LOSA? RR? HFDS? ADGA? ZBOAZ/Mace? Flyin High/LSS? Waco? Waterloo? (There's eight big events right there!)

Leyy just because we have more events doesn't mean that our DG scene is any better. I would rather have 15 quality events a year with a few smaller ones then 35 smaller ones and 5 quality ones.

Larry if more rounds at smaller events = better dg scene that is like saying more courses (100 PnPs) is better than 50 par 60s. More doesn't always mean better.

How about this.

The Texas Players Cup goes to the players with the most points in the year at participating tournaments.

A TD pays a fee to be a points qualifier.

Say
$5 non PDGA
$10 C-tier
$15 B-tier
$20 A-tier
$25 NT/Major

Points can be calculated so that higher tier tournaments gets you more points.

Also, I would recomend a max number of points per tournament.

Non 50pts
C - 100
B - 150
A - 200
NT/Major - 250

I trust gary to come up with a good points system.

You could even do it by saying the top 6 tournament points count. This way someone who tours Texas tournaments all the time does not win every time. (someone like me could do well with only playing 10 events per year)

The cash collected (I elect Gary to collect it :D) would be used to purchase trophies of some sort.

You could even do the top Pro qualifier (that has not already qualified) be the Texas state Rep at USDGC. (just an idea)

You could have a bag tag made for the current leader to use, (they would have to mail it to the next leader though)

This could be done easily and done without changing any tournaments. (and at a low cost per tournament)

Matt - What is broken with the Texas DG scene right now? You are playing a bunch of events around the country these days, so what do you see as broken?

Tournament player rounds is one of the only ways to measure "how we're doing" across the entire state. Maybe attendence is down from 200 at States to 175. But if there were 3 other new tournaments played and each had 40 players, then the net out is then we actually had 295 player entries which is almost a 50% increase. I could play in twice as many tournaments this year as I could 5 years ago. When I look around, I see so many more opportunities to play in tournaments. Is this hurting the big events in some way?

Bryan - I know you are a big trophy only kind of guy, but that isn't what most players seem to want. If given a choice between an event that cost $10 for trophy only and one that costs $35 for a chance at pick-your-own-payout, then I'm going to opt for the $35 one.

Well I think our state is saturated with events compared to the majority of the country. I have a prime example of what I think is one problem with the Pro division in our state. We have three events on a weekend with only 3-10 pros at each. Especially in H-town where we rarely have two cards in open. If we were to have 2/3 the amount of events we currently do and make them even better I think we would have just as many players but at a smaller # of events. I know that if we keep having small tournouts in our local events it will start detering players from showing up but if we have fewer events that draw a larger amount of players people won't be detered but wil actually want to play thus increasing the amount of participation.

In the mid west they have fewer events but the ones they do run are high quality and also draw a large amount of players.
Quality is better then quantity anyday.

While that is good for the Pros, that may not be the best approach for the Ams.

IMHO, I think we need more events with amateur focus, Actually I think there should be at least three series of events. One priced and structured to appeal to the rec/beginning tournament player; one set up to be a value added series (like the TX10 tour) for Int/Adv, and one aimed at the Advanced and Pro players. All series should offer all divisions, just have the emphasis set toward the things each different group finds important.

All three series should feed into an overall Championship event that combines the best of all the series and exposes all of the competitors a little flavor of the other events and to each other.

Bryan - I know you are a big trophy only kind of guy, but that isn't what most players seem to want. If given a choice between an event that cost $10 for trophy only and one that costs $35 for a chance at pick-your-own-payout, then I'm going to opt for the $35 one.


Not me, I would never play a trophy only tournament. (well, never say never)

I think you might have misread what I typed.

I was talking about a TD "joins" to be a member of The Texas Players Cup. The tournament pays a fee to be included in the points total. I thought this should be done by tier and not just by tournament. I figure if 10 tournaments joined and all were B-tier tournaments at $15 each, you would have $150 to get trophies for all divisions.

you could get better trophies and deeper trophies as more tournaments join in.

While that is good for the Pros, that may not be the best approach for the Ams.

IMHO, I think we need more events with amateur focus, Actually I think there should be at least three series of events. One priced and structured to appeal to the rec/beginning tournament player; one set up to be a value added series (like the TX10 tour) for Int/Adv, and one aimed at the Advanced and Pro players. All series should offer all divisions, just have the emphasis set toward the things each different group finds important.

All three series should feed into an overall Championship event that combines the best of all the series and exposes all of the competitors a little flavor of the other events and to each other.



Agreed

Some perspective:

1. 16 C tiers, 13-15 B tiers, and 2-4 A tiers in Texas in 2006. (the B tier and A tiers include mixed events like Texas States which is why there is some variation)

2. I think I left out Chris' event since it is essentially over (unless someone picks it up?)

3. Two years ago Gary and I did an analysis, Texas players average less than two events per year.

4. There is a small group of players which I call high hitters that play over 5 events a year.

The pool you're going after is those guys that have one or two events a year. Whatever you build has to entice those guys to play in multiple events. BTW - That is exactly what Chris Himming did.

The current events in the State don't do this. I'm not even sure that LSS does this although I haven't done the numbers.

...In the mid west they have fewer events but the ones they do run are high quality and also draw a large amount of players.
Quality is better then quantity anyday.



Is it the larger field that makes it a higher quality event or something else done or provided by the TD and staff?

I would say its a good mix of both-TDs are very organized and therefore draw the same people back every year.

...In the mid west they have fewer events but the ones they do run are high quality and also draw a large amount of players.
Quality is better then quantity anyday.



Is it the larger field that makes it a higher quality event or something else done or provided by the TD and staff?

We averaged 185 players per tournament last year over seven tournaments. I think the IOS formula for success has been consistently well run tournaments with good value for the amateurs. Good courses help too, but we don't really have those in northern Illinois.

"Well run" means doing a couple dozen different things every time. They include flyers in the hands of players, on-line registration, socrecards with accurate distances, a printed player guide with o.b.s and other information, pick-your-own-player-packs, starting on time, using a leaderboard to show scores between rounds, a prompt awards ceremony, pick-your-own-prizes and a decent selection of merch.

Our amateur payouts, according to the way the PDGA counts them, run from 130% to 145% or so when we don't have outside sponsorship. The actual payout is even higher for players who throw Discraft because we give Discraft's sponsorship back to the players in the form of reduced prices on Discraft's merchandise. If you tie for last brass and get 12 bucks, that's enough for an ESP disc usually at our tournaments, so it is like getting 14, 16 or even 18 bucks at other tournaments.

Tournaments that do not have sponsorship still have plenty of money for good amateur payouts if they (a) keep the merch in-house, i.e., don't use a third-party merchlord, and (b) keep the funds in-division, i.e., don't skim money off the ams to add money to the pros.

On (a) Gary's idea to have each TD buy out the previous TD is really an excellent idea. This way someone who does not normally carry $3,000 worth of inventory can get in, run a good event, and then get out with his money back.

Having run tournaments both ways, I think (b) really does a lot to suppress attendance. The amateurs can get 100% payouts if they buy their discs at the gas station and skip our tournaments.

I think we may have a problem of definitions here.
Clarification is needed for these:

100% payout
skimming money from the ams
retail price

In my dictionary:

100% payout is paying out 100% of the entry fees paid in subtracting nothing. If you subtract fees, expenses, and charity first, then the same payout is 130% to 150%.

skimming money from the ams is paying out less than 100% retail value to the Am divisions in order to produce added cash for the Pro divisions. As long as you are paying out 100% retail to the Ams, you are not skimming money.

retail price is a reasonable market value of the merchandise used to payout Ams. Paying out at higher than market prices generates ill will. Paying out at below market prices produces artificially low payout numbers and hurts other vendors in the market.

I love this statement by GnD:

skimming money from the ams is paying out less than 100% retail value to the Am divisions in order to produce added cash for the Pro divisions. As long as you are paying out 100% retail to the Ams, you are not skimming money.



I think a lot of people have this perception, but in truth, everything at a tourney (at least the way we run it) gets categorized into income and expenses. The money "made" on the wholesale to retail conversion is just income. It would be WAY too difficult to try and track which portions of income or expenses should get allocated to Ams versus Pros. Running a big tourney is a ton of work, and trying to track that stuff as the tournement progresses would severely limit the amount of time it already takes to do payout.

I'm still waiting to hear which tournaments need standardization and what problems there were with them. Matt wants to see larger Pro fields, but that isn't a problem that a State alliance of TDs is gonna be able to fix (unless we all agree to lower Pro entry fees.)

The thing I'm really seeing as a potential motivation for TDs (and players) to consider forming this series/alliance for is a pick-your-own-payout system of custom-stamped discs. We can achieve really good benefits of economy of scale type purchasing and really snazz up the appearance of an event. And as someone already pointed out: it gives potential sponsors a much larger regional audience. The money raised from selling advertising seems likely to pay the costs of printing up banners, flyers, and schedule/calendars...and who knows how much attention the state-wide audience might attract!

These two reasons (payout merch and greater sponsorship attraction) would seem to give clubs/organizers reason to want to take the time and trouble to form an alliance and work toward a series. Doesn't it?

From my own experiences and observations, you need a dedicated and exuberant Merchandising Director to oversee the merch stuff. When the SoCal Series had someone dedicated to stocking and selling and getting the trailer from place to place, we made a lot of extra money for the Series. There have been a lot of people involved over the years, but my closest experience with it was when C.E. Courtney was doing an awesome job for SoCal. He's a hollywood electrician type, with a "feast or famine" type of workload. When he was light on regular work, be busted butt and really kept it going. When he got picked up on a regular TV show and suddenly was working a lot instead of wishing he was working, he understandably couldn't be the merch guy anymore. We really had a hard time trying to get anyone else to take on that job and the big ole SoCal Trailer actually became a burden when it wasn't someone's baby.

With a state the size of Texas and trying to push a common merch cart all the way around it, you will need to be very organized. I'm not trying to talk you out of it ot anything, but you should be aware of the pitfalls. With so much territory to cover, you will need probably need multiple Merch Guys. And that's hard to do, too.

I think a lot of people have this perception, but in truth, everything at a tourney (at least the way we run it) gets categorized into income and expenses. The money "made" on the wholesale to retail conversion is just income. It would be WAY too difficult to try and track which portions of income or expenses should get allocated to Ams versus Pros. Running a big tourney is a ton of work, and trying to track that stuff as the tournement progresses would severely limit the amount of time it already takes to do payout.



I don't understand your statement. 100% payout to the ams consists Entry fee * number of players. The amount made on retail markup has nothing to do with payout. Money made has nothing to do with payout unless you are trying to break dead even by including all disc sales in the payout. Personally I think that's a bad idea because it generates more work and opportunity for error than it is really worth. All decisions about payout percentages and added cash should be made in advance of the tournament. All that's left is to figure out how many players you have and multiply that by the amount of each entry that is going to payout, add in the added cash for each division and calculate the payouts.

It's done during the first round before you have any cards to count.

Gary is correct here as to his second point about doing the math in advance. This is the way competent tournament directors do it. We do income and expense projections in advance of every tournament so that we know what we can afford for different field sizes. We also then actually do income and expense accounting while the players are playing the morning round in conjunction with calculating the payouts, so we can confirm that we are not running at a loss, or retaining more than we intended to.

Clearly, not all TDs are competent. Some just guess at numbers based on their experience, and when the players leave they count up the cash and discs left over. That was how i ran Lizard doubles in 2001. It took me a full season to figure out how to do the accounting.

As to what constitutes 100% payout, the PDGA defines 100% payout as the total reasonable retail value of the player pack, payout, CTPs, food, jumbo tosses, trophies, PDGA per player fees and course use fee equalling the entry fees.

So what do you say Coastal Clash, Outlaws, LOSO, COTO, etc. etc.?



Brian, Billy and I have been talkin about this since the final & we are definitely All IN... Coastal Clash or Shule School

I sent you a PM Brian.

I'm still waiting to hear which tournaments need standardization and what problems there were with them. Matt wants to see larger Pro fields, but that isn't a problem that a State alliance of TDs is gonna be able to fix (unless we all agree to lower Pro entry fees.)



Well i don't think lowering the fees is the problem. We just need to know what events will be quality and if you run a quality event with decent $$$ the pros will show up.

One suggestion I've received is to focus the support for the Pro Divisions in just 8-10 events. This would allow the other events to concentrate on developing new players in the amateur ranks, and not expend a large amount of time, energy, and resources trying to attract a hand full of Pros.

The events in question would focus on the Pro/Advanced fields, much like the VPO did this past weekend. The other events could then either focus on the Advanced/Intermediate players or Recreational/Intermediate players. The only problem is that by volunteering to be one of the Pro/Adv tournament, the club/TD is knowingly loosing a good portion of it's possible financial base. On the other hand, by agreeing to focus on just the amateur fields, the other events do not have to dedicate as much cash to the Pro divisions. Maybe something can be worked out so that the mainly Am events can support the mainly Pro events and everyone can choose what type of events they would like to attend.

I see this as a chance to develop our player base, and give players a chance to play within their comfort level, or expand thier playing experience, but mainly let them know ahead of time what type of event they will be attending.

Go ahead and tear it apart about moving money from one event to another and artificially supporting the pros, and then really think about it.

The touring pros would be able to focus their attention on events that should have good sized fields, and the local pros can spend some time assisting in the local events. Just remember, the more time the pros spend helping the amateurs get better, the sooner they will be ready to become Pros.

The Ams could attend events that are more expensive on tougher courses where the emphasis is on compeition, or choose to attend lower priced events where the emphasis is on having a good time, learning about the game, and having a little friendly competition at the same time.

if the focus of a tour was on Pro/Adv, it would be cool to have a minimum rating to compete

a tournament geared to Am's is easy to run. You don't have to worry about sponsorship. A tournament that caters to the pro's HAS to have lots of sponsorship (or a very large Am field to make up the differance)

I'm still waiting to hear which tournaments need standardization and what problems there were with them. Matt wants to see larger Pro fields, but that isn't a problem that a State alliance of TDs is gonna be able to fix (unless we all agree to lower Pro entry fees.)



Well i don't think lowering the fees is the problem. We just need to know what events will be quality and if you run a quality event with decent $$$ the pros will show up.


I think it all has to do with entry fees. Lower the pro entry fees and I bet you will see more players in MPO.

But it's just a theory. :)

if the focus of a tour was on Pro/Adv, it would be cool to have a minimum rating to compete



Given the types of course setups expected (like VPO Champion) it may be in the best interest of the event and players to limit entries. There are only 2-3 events in the state that would go that way. VPO, Outlaws, TX Doubles Pro, and maybe a few of the newer tougher courses like Manor or Wilco with gold tees.

Well I hope this thread is not for ya'll Texans. Maybe some advice from someone who lived in Austin for six years and watched the pro division go from one of the most strongest, and talented divisions in the country in (2000) to trying to scape enough pros together to make a division (2006). I started playing this sport in Michigan, where I have decided to rehang my hat. The whole time I lived down ther I have been saying that Texas needed to create a series as Michigan had done (M.D.G.O.) I thought The Texas ten would be the savior, ha,ha. That lasted about a minute.
There has always been to much of a, my club is better than your club attitude in Texas. In the M.D.G.O. all the clubs work together and not against each other. There is a president, vice president, treasurer, and two representitives from each club. The tournaments are split into two one day events. Saturday all amature divisions play, with the exception of the advanced players.On Sunday all pros and the advanced players play. I have yet to see a weak pro tournout.
Michigan was nicknamed the united state of disc golf for a reason .Until Texas can come together and the clubs can learn how to work together this issue will always be talked about. I have lways wondered why there hasn't been a Cen-Tex disc golf series? Some of the strongest clubs in the state are located in the center of the state not more than a forty minute drive from each other with Circular Productions right smack in the middle of it, hmmmm? Maybe some one will come along and take care of you guys.
Well, I have to go shovell my side walk now, you guys take care. :D

Good one Sudo :cool:

The MDGO has been at least three different things, and two of them were quite different from each other.

When I was involved as a club rep in the late 90s, it was it's own thing. The MDGO owned the tournaments and the merch. It decided how to do the payouts. That MDGO was run by volunteers from different clubs. The profit made on the series was divided between the clubs they represented at the end of the season, but clubs that did not pull their weight often only got a half share.

The old MDGO was great at skimming money off the ams to create a pro purse. Really cheap merch from Discraft did a lot to make this possible without jamming the ams so much they noticed. The MDGO got deals that not too many others were getting. We had to invent 24 hole courses and split-day tournaments to accomodate all the players. The old MDGO also did a pretty good job of taking an occasional loss on a poorly attended tournament by supporting that event with money made at a well attended event.

More recently the MDGO has been more like a lax franchising operation. Each club runs its own event as it sees fit. It pays money to the MDGO to be part of the series. At one time this was a player fee and then later it was to buy berths for the Finals to be awarded to the top players. As the result, each event is on its own to sink or swim. Every year there are a few sinkers.

The Illinois Open Series is run more like the MDGO of old, except we're not into the am-skimming thing, and we have limited the partners to basically two clubs, and a few volunteers. Because we only get the ordinary great deals on Discraft, we only do great amateur payouts. Our pro payouts kind of suck! :eek: On the upside, we only have three decision makers, so we are capable of doing our off season meeting in about two hours. The MDGO holds like four or five meetings that take up about 20 hours.

If this is the Bruce I think it is I remember you playing at Riverbends with Sean from time to time. It looks, or rather, reads as if you've been reading the disc golfers hand book to T.D. ing.
I was refering to the old way the M.D.G.O. used to run things. I have been out f the state and I haven't had the chance to keep up with the M.D.G.O.'s new politics in regards to disc golf.
If Texas took the old structure of what used to be the M.D.G.O. and created something along those lines I think disc golf would thrive again.
Texas is so gosh darn huge you could literally have three, maybe even four, series going on at the same time. It is three hours to everywhere. It gets pretty expensive when every tournament you play you need to take friday off of work, a hotel room, or find someone to crash with. It is a lot easier when the events are geographically suitable.
Anywhooo, I have enough problems trying to figure out my putting without adding more grey hairs figuring out Texas' tournament issues. That is what board members, and club presidents are for. Good night!

"without adding more grey hairs "

what, did you decide to grow hair now that you moved back to Canada?? :D:p how you been Mike?

It is too **** cold right now to keep my head shaved. That and my girlfriend kinda talked me into it. Keep it ez Efrain!

cold its suppose to be 80 today in Austin :D hope things are going good for you Mike.

Something I want all the different regions to hash out and decide if it works in their area. Would be to host/change established events into ma2/ma3 events to generate money to a event centered around ma1/mpo.
Give it some time to sink in and START WORKING TOGETHER.
An example of this would be:
Abline host a MA2/MA3 event
Amarilo host a MA2/MA3 event
And Lubbuck have the MA1/MPO (Main event)event
The Main Event could rotate between the cities or not.
The logistics of the generated money could be done a few different ways.
Portion of wholesale to retail profit goin to the main event.
Raffle $$ goes to main event
Non hit ace pot could go to main event
Or a combination of all or some.
I am sure there is other things that could be thought of leading to the main event.....but the bottom line is WORK TOGETHER.
We maybe ahead of ourselfs trying to get the whole state to work together (cause of to many hard heads) but a little step is better than no step.
Attention all people with the passion for TEXAS golf.
Don't let this die.
I will be having adult beverages with Live Oak this weekend to find the glass slipper for our area.
So lets get to leading.......or get out of the state and go follow something else :D

changing title

Working together, hmmm, what will it take? ...not-for-profit TD's, re-imbursed yes...profit no...Td's who run only one event a year unless they have enough resources to spread around. Seems like guys get burnt out or start slacking because quite honestly it's alot of work to dedicate to one event let alone more than that. A TD can put more into one event than he can 2 to 3 making it more worthwhile for the players as well as themselves.

That example might need some adjusting ;). The events here are gaining momentum and I wouldn't feel comfortable scaling back on what we are growing. We hope to make the DisCrazy Shootout one of the biggest events in Texas, and with Budweiser signed on as a corporate sponsor, that won't be too far away. We've got the facility and big interest from out-of-towners. We have been working on making things appealing for PROFESSIONAL players that enjoy playing our course and events, and I'm not in favor of doing an event just geared toward AMs. We just don't have enough events within 200 miles from us to make that an appealing alternative. I'm not knocking the neighbors, just trying to explain our position.

If I may take a stab at explaining Vinnie's position (as he explained it to me), instead of the three or four events in a region all putting for the the effort to garner added cash for the Pros and all doing an OK job of it, elect one event each year to be the big Pro event for that area and have all of the areas work toward that goal. The events that are not the Pro shocase event that year are then free to concentrate on the Ams knowing that the Pros will have a specific event that should have a large field for them. The Pro divisions may still be offered at the supporting evnets, but it would be better if the local pros would volunteer to give clinics and support the event. Splitting it up allows for bigger and better events for everyone, just not as many of them.

The real question is whether anyone will see it as a possible step forward, or will everyone see it as you do. No one said not to offer Pro divisions, just focus you attention on either the INT/ADV or REC/INT divisions and sponsor the designated PRO/ADV event generously. I really think that once the players understand what is going on, that everyone will be seeing better turnouts. I know that I prefer going to events that I know will have a strong field in my division.

After saying all of that, West Texas may be a little too spread out for this to work really well, but that's the idea anyway.

I think that is what I'm trying to convey. Our area is way too spread out for that type of system. I'm not saying it won't work, or that it's a bad system, there are just not enough events close by to make it attractive to the better players. In this area, if a Pro player wants to compete, you need to prepare to be on the road a lot. There are a lot of events that are makeable, but with having to take off of work on Friday and Monday, that is tough to do. So we have been forced to fend for ourselves and develop the events that we want to participate in and still sleep in our own beds. Selfish? I don't think so.

We have Two PDGA events here (because local players want PDGA events close by) each year that service the needs of the area players. Speaking for myself only, I would like to see them both become events that Pro players from around the country plan on attending. I've got a good idea what it will take to reach that goal, and I am doing my best to make it a reality. We've got a way to go, there's no doubt about that, but we're on the right track.

If the future is the system you are promoting, let's make sure the whole state is together on it, and those that are doing events that are growing yearly get to have their voice in the matter. I know I would be really disenchanted if we can't get a decent date on the PDGA schedule because we disagree on what is best for Disc Golf. Some PDGA event is better than no PDGA event.

We've taken the opposite approach the the IOSeries, which is why it has gotten so big so fast. Instead of screwing the majority of the players to create a nice little bonus for ten or twelve players, I encourage those ten or twelve to go play in a neighboring state where that concept is in vogue.

But it's not an opposite approach. If you have 5 B-Tiers that all struggle to get $750 or so added, none of them are going to be must attend events for Pro players. You get about a dozen MPO's at each. Since the events are working to attract Pro players, the AMs are left to fend for themselves and have average fields.

Now take the 2 events on the courses best suited for white level play and focus those on the REC and INT divisions. Make every effort to convince the top ADV and PRO players to come out and volunteer. Give clinics, be spotters, just be seen by the up and coming players. Advertise this is where you need to be if you are a REC or INT player interested in getting better or having a good time. Take about half of the cash that would have been added to the Pro divisions and add it to the Ams. It will go about twice as far. i.e. $750 in added cash for Pros = about $1000 in added cash for ams + $250 sponsorship for the Pro event.

Take the 2 events that have good blue level courses and make them a bit more expensive and aimed at the ADV and INT divisions. Again, the added cash works the same way. Hopefully you can get the Pros and Rec players to come out and staff andhang out together.

You have just had 4 Am focused events that included $1000 added cash each for the Ams and had very large competitive fields for the featured divisions.

Now you have the toughest courses left for the PRO/ADV event. You have the $750 they would have raised plus a total of $1000 in sponsorship from the other 4 events.

Instead of 5 mediocre B-Tiers for everyone, you have had 5
large events for specific groups. You also have the Pros mingling with the up and coming players and possibly getting some of them interested enough to show up and watch the Pros play on the Pro weekend.

Don't get me wrong, most events and courses are best suited for traditional style tournaments, but there are still a few that could benefit from this approach. Wouldn't you like to play in an event where you knew your division would be huge.

It could work, but it would take everyone working together and the understanding and help of the players. Do you think the Pros would give up some time to go out and volunteer at a an am event ?

Do you think the Pros would give up some time to go out and volunteer at an am event ?




As an Open player I would give time to AM events to help jumpstart the Open player intrest in volunteering, I'm sure others would do the same. Open guys who volunteer time could get together and give clinics to help the growth of the ams game.

It maight be just me, but I think some of that is needed in the larger markets in the state.

There should be an organized set of events like this around DFW, Austin/SA, and Houston with the Pro/Adv events happening at different times of the year. This should work well in areas with a good population of players that don't feel comfortable at traditional tournaments.

John...I was only making an example of your area....you all know best what events in your area that are well attended and the others that could cater best to MA2/MA3, And with that said...I am asking you and all other T.D.'S to consider the idea.....just the idea......or come up with a better idea.
I understand pride and the drive to get all the big boys to play one's home course with lots added. But in the real world every city on every weekend can't pull it off! So lets set aside the pride of ones home course and focus on Texas pride. In time we will have created a large player base and god forbid get noticed by REAL sponsorship.

Right, I understand about the example. And we have to start somewhere. I just want to make sure that when we designate which divisions play which course (tournament), the Amarillo Disc Golf Complex isn't relegated to a lesser skill level just because the decisions makers have never played this course and don't know what it offers. Many people who live in the other parts of Texas have a skewed view of what we have here in the Panhandle. It's not all just flat Plains with no trees :D.

we designate which divisions play which course (tournament), the Amarillo Disc Golf Complex isn't relegated to a lesser skill level just because the decisions makers have never played this course


And that is what I am wanting to hear "WE DESIGNATE"......not one body making all the calls.
We need to all work together....... that is easier said done but it is something that has to happen and what would you suggest happen if a event or a T.D. decided not to work with the rest of the state?
Somethings need to stay the same but the overall state of golf in Texas needs to step forward and quit running in place.

This idea has evolved into a mini history of the failing paradigm of the PDGA: Raise a bunch of money for the pros and let ams have their typical events that entice them to play down.

In Texas, we hardly have a problem catering to ams. In fact, TDs sprout up all the time to cater to their "needs." The problem we do have in Texas is that established pros play less, improving players stop playing when they reach the pros and some ams tank it because that is where the system leads them.

Create something that addresses the real problems and you have done something. So far, it seems that this is yet another journey down the same, worn-out path to nowhere.

I see your donkey has parted and you farted something out......Can I hear your suggestion?
Yeah I want to hear what your donkey has to say. :D

You won't grow your player base by running am-scam events. Money skimmed off the ams is not REAL sponsorship.

The reality is there is a large schism between our top open/master players and our top advanced players. Therre are 32 players rated at 980 or above in this state, and some of these will probably drop off at the next cycle and some more (hopefully me!) will move into this field.

<table border="1"><tr><td> Joel Kelly</td><td>1015
</td></tr><tr><td>Nolan Grider</td><td>1012
</td></tr><tr><td>J.D. Ramirez</td><td>1009
</td></tr><tr><td>Michael Olse</td><td>1007
</td></tr><tr><td>Vinnie Miller</td><td>1000
</td></tr><tr><td>Matt Hall</td><td>999
</td></tr><tr><td>Mike Sayre</td><td>999
</td></tr><tr><td>Smokin Joe Torres</td><td>998
</td></tr><tr><td>Alex Downs</td><td>996
</td></tr><tr><td>David Moody</td><td>996
</td></tr><tr><td>Dagon Owen</td><td>995
</td></tr><tr><td>Robert W. Habert III</td><td>995
</td></tr><tr><td>Donald Ellsworth</td><td>995
</td></tr><tr><td>Mark Stevens</td><td>995
</td></tr><tr><td>Chris Flesner</td><td>994
</td></tr><tr><td>John My-Hero Maiuro</td><td>994
</td></tr><tr><td>Mike Grider</td><td>993
</td></tr><tr><td>Jim Davidson</td><td>992
</td></tr><tr><td>Clayton Bethmann</td><td>992
</td></tr><tr><td>Dixon Jowers</td><td>990
</td></tr><tr><td>Billy West </td><td>990
</td></tr><tr><td>Chris Farnham</td><td>990
</td></tr><tr><td>Ian Hovey</td><td>989
</td></tr><tr><td>John Terlap</td><td>987
</td></tr><tr><td>Jamie Callis</td><td>986
</td></tr><tr><td>Steven Hemmeline</td><td>984
</td></tr><tr><td>Stephen Russell</td><td>982
</td></tr><tr><td>Randy Greywoolf</td><td>982
</td></tr><tr><td>Alex Hughes</td><td>981
</td></tr><tr><td>Jimmy Zamora</td><td>981
</td></tr><tr><td>Marcus Roberts</td><td>981
</td></tr><tr><td>Jeff Cooper</td><td>981
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>

If five or six of these guys show up at an event, you can pretty much count on all of them cashing. Therefore the advanced player, maybe sitting at 960-970 or so looks at that, and says why should I pay a higher entry fee to donate to the same guys, when I can get some plastic to sell on e-bay. And if I do play advanced and get called a bagger, well maybe it's better to stay at home and compete in the local minis rather than subject myself to that. This is killing our sport in Texas at that level. MA2 and Ma1 are always full, but MPO amd MPM are struggling.


Maybe we should take a good hard look at ratings based (not age based) events and add a Pro II division. 980-1000+ play Pro I, 960-980 play Pro II, 940-960 play MA1, etc. Distribute the added cash on a pro-rata basis (that's per player for some of you) to both Pro I and Pro II.

Vinnie I'm not sure what your proposal is, but I look forward to hearing it. I talked to Billy Nelson yesterday and he has some ideas too for a series. We can do this, but we are going to need to take the bull by the horns and make some hard decisions, not all of which everyone will agree with.

Bruce......thanks for your input :confused:
your signature tells it all.
I should change mine to: MA2/MA3 divisions are not tournament players
or
ESPN has pga, lpga and the champions tour....I don't see the rpa or the ipa

see you friday

You won't grow your player base by running am-scam events. Money skimmed off the ams is not REAL sponsorship.



You are not paying attention to what I'm saying.

We have a lot of TD busting their butts to generate a small amount of cash sponsorship for their Pro purses. This amount is true sponsorship cash, but isn't really enough to attract a lot of attention in anyone place. Now here's the tricky part. Since cash sponsorship is generally worth 2X added merch to the ams, you can take that small amount that would hve been dedicated to the Pros and apply 66% to the Ams. Thereby increasing the Ams payout beyond what it would have been and still leaving 33% to be donated as sponsorship to your associated Pro/Adv event.

No one is talking about skimming any money from any other division, just broadening the sponsorship base of a single event out to multiple events. All events are still responsible for raising added cash, they are just now free to use it where it helps the divisions they are promoting directly.

Basically, I have no problem with y'alls efforts, and will support them for sure, I just don't think what I am seing addresses the real problems (well, my perceived problems of course).

My ideas are simply goals:

To get bigger pro fields, populated by local and regional players, who may not be attacted by huge purses;

To get bigger am fields, populated by local and regional players, who are not attacted by profitting, but enjoy competitive golf and large fields;

To give better options to pros who have dropped out;

To give better options to ams who might move up;



Goals I definitely don't have:

Attract a few more pros through the appeal of a huge purse;

Attract more ams looking to profit.

Vinnie,

Bruce can be irritating, but what he says has merit. There is a problem somewhere, and there are a lot of the pieces of the puzzle being presented on this thread.

Bruce is running successful 200+ am-only tourneys by keeping all the am money in with the ams. This works for ams.

bee-gone brings up very pertinent points about the plight of the 955+ rated am, let alone the 930-945 rated ams that get "encouraged" to move up. Double the entry fee for no chance? Um, I remember "old timer pros" in 1998 telling me they don't play tourneys anymore because they got tired of giving their money to the same three guys everytime, and now pro entry fees are much higher than they were.

My belief is that $35-$45 for a tournament entry is a good value for the money. (Factor in hotels, food, and gas for travel for the full cost.) Move that price-point up to $75-$125 and it's not such a good deal anymore.


Something new and different that might be successful has to consider all of the stuff posted here.

I will try to show how my proposal can address your concerns, and is not aimed at exacerbating the problems you perceive.


Basically, I have no problem with y'alls efforts, and will support them for sure, I just don't think what I am seing addresses the real problems (well, my perceived problems of course).

My ideas are simply goals:

To get bigger pro fields, populated by local and regional players, who may not be attacted by huge purses;

<font color="blue">What I am proposing gives the existing pros a chance to work with the up and coming advanced and intermediate players and help them improve to the point they can start testing the waters in the pro fields. What we have now does not have anybody really helping anybody get better. Any new pro players are likely to come from the existing amateur players and any help the current pros can give them is only going to speed them up.</font>

To get bigger am fields, populated by local and regional players, who are not attacted by profitting, but enjoy competitive golf and large fields;

<font color="blue">I haven't stated my goals for the added cash I've been talking about, but I personally would like to see the bulk of it going to all players in better player's packs and much deeper payouts. Having tournaments aimed at specific skill ranges should attract large fields in the few divisions targeted by the event.</font>

To give better options to pros who have dropped out;

<font color="blue">This is a major concern. Having larger fields with deeper payout because of more added cash, offering the trophy-only option at more events, and more Pros exercising the Pro playing Am rule should give more dropped-out pros a better shot at enjoying competition again.</font>

To give better options to ams who might move up;

<font color="blue">Hopefully the trophy-only option will increase Am participation in the Pro fields. Those that do well, may stay and become full time pros.</font>

Goals I definitely don't have:

Attract a few more pros through the appeal of a huge purse;

<font color="blue">Not really a goal of mine either, but larger purses attract the attention of larger sponsors and spectators. Attracting their attention is one of my major goals.</font>

Attract more ams looking to profit.

<font color="blue">Not a goal of mine at all. I prefer the added cash go toward attracting and rewarding new players that aren't in the cash. I think the normal payout should not be overly diluted though. I think that our semi-pro ams should get some rewards for beating a large field of competitors.</font>



What it boils down to is that maybe 1/5th of the current events would change to focused events and the rest would continue as before. I don't think that all events could or should adopt this model, but do believe that it could be very successful in certain locations.

James, that was my last sales pitch.

Does anything fit into what you are looking for, or is it not aligned with you are looking for ?

I would like to hear your opinion of whether this would be workable or not.

As far as your proposed plan goes Gary...I'm pretty sure that Houston would be willing to step up and add a focused Am-only event, but we'd want to do it about 6 months out from the NT.

We are sorta busy at the front of the season right now with the NT in April and The Moffitt Show in February.

So did you guys meet at Teams this weekend and talk.....?

I was unable to make it. Family committments.

good conversations went on with Andy L., Nez,third coast,texas 10 owner,all had great ideas....bottom line we all agreed that Texas golf needs to be better.
I am going to continue work with folks and hope we can make this work.

hmmmmm....interesting subject(s).

After reading this post cover to cover... I struggle seeing everyone agree on the unified goal here. I see Vinnie wanting Texas to become synonymous with �GREAT� or even world class events. I see Gary trying to improve Texas DG by growing the playing community. I see Brian trying to improve tournament power by making it easier to host �GREAT� events� as well as several other points of interest�

ONE of the problems is no one has agreed on what the focus of improvement should be. Do we focus on one thing or everything?

I have only been playing for a measly 12 years. Started in Victoria (great course), moved to Austin and ended up in S.A. It was 6 years before I could throw 300 feet. I see players get into the sport now and have someone to learn from� it astonishes me at how fast they become advanced players, even Pros. When I played my first tournament (in WACO� great tourney) the player pack was a great draw. As a person trying to add a jewel in the crown of Texas Disc Golf I attended a small fair for my district. Everyone who found out we were opening up a new course was excited about trying the sport. Creating the right tournament/player environment will grow the player community. This is where we introduce the chicken to the egg. It�s hard to grow a player community without the incentive of great tournaments. You can�t have great tournaments without the growing involvement of a player community. The draw to an event for each division is different and thus a �GREAT� tournament to one person is a mediocre one to another. Having events geared towards divisions will help focus the greatness of the event� and having one tournament support another enables you to grow the community by developing that tournament/player environment. Gary�s last sales pitch was a great one. Getting more skilled divisions to help in lower skill level events gives exposure and opportunity to learn and grow. It�s almost like creating a mentor environment without having �big brothers/sisters� of Disc Golf.

If everyone agrees building a tournament/player environment to support a growing Disc Golf community is the ultimate goal, the entire group can work towards that goal.

Hopefully this is where the business savvy people on this thread can help drive success� once we all agree on the Mission Statement. We can decide what determines success and how we measure to it. From that, we decide how to take the steps to achieve what we all strive for� Texas Champions

Great post.

As the number of courses increases in the state so rapidly, none of the events seem to have much signifigance. There isn't a premium put on playing some place nice like Live Oak, Wimb, Dripping Springs, Tom Bass, Oak Meadows, Old Settlers, etc. it ends up being just another stop on another tour. If the different tours within the state got together and organized themselves by being an A-tier tour, B-tier, C-tier, etc. The nicer courses would be played by the A-tier & B-tier tours, leaving places like Beeville, Kyle, Gonzales, Wilco, Temple, Conroe, for the C-tier tours. This in return would leave golfers with the option of playing cheaper C-tier tournaments closer to them and save money for the more expensive A & B tiers further away. I personally wouldn't drive all the way to Lubbock just to play a C-tier tournament and I don't think a lot of other guys would either, but we would for an A or B. The timing of these events is also crucial b/c the average golfer that likes to play tournaments that lives in Houston will drive one weekend to San Antonio to play a tournament and then want to play the next weekend also and that tournament is in Abilene and the next one is in Dallas and so on.... This leaves the player spending tons of money on hotels and gas just trying to play & compete on a frequent basis. If the tours were to run in a loop one behind the other around the state then players wouldn't have to travel that far or as often b/c another tours stop would be coming to there area within a week or two.

That is what we have been working for.

I would like to thank the TDs for helping out when they needed to. I'm trying to work the Texas schedule around the state and separate the B-Tiers and above from each other as much as possible. Here is what the schedule looks like now.

<table border="1"><tr><td>Week</td><td>Tier</td><td>Week</td><td>Tier</td><td>Week</td><td>Tier</td><td>Week</td><td>Tier
</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>C</td><td>14</td><td>H</td><td>27</td><td>B</td><td>40</td><td>B
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>C</td><td>15</td><td>B</td><td>28</td><td>B</td><td>41</td><td>C
</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>C</td><td>16</td><td>B</td><td>29</td><td>C</td><td>42</td><td>B
</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>C</td><td>17</td><td>B</td><td>30</td><td>C</td><td>43</td><td>C
</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>B</td><td>18</td><td>C</td><td>31</td><td>C</td><td>44</td><td>A
</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>A</td><td>19</td><td>C</td><td>32</td><td>C</td><td>45</td><td>C
</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>B</td><td>20</td><td>B</td><td>33</td><td>B</td><td>46</td><td>TT
</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>C</td><td>21</td><td>C</td><td>34</td><td>C</td><td>47</td><td>H
</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>B</td><td>22</td><td>C</td><td>35</td><td>B</td><td>48</td><td>B
</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>B</td><td>23</td><td>B</td><td>36</td><td>C</td><td>49</td><td>B
</td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>B</td><td>24</td><td>B</td><td>37</td><td>B</td><td>50</td><td>H
</td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td>W</td><td>25</td><td>C</td><td>38</td><td>A</td><td>51</td><td>H
</td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>N</td><td>26</td><td>C</td><td>39</td><td>C</td><td>52</td><td>H</tr></td></table>
A-C = Tier
W = World Doubles
N = NT
H = Holiday
TT = Texas Teams

The desired order would be a large (A or B) event followed by a C which is multiple smaller events around the state.
There is some effort put into rotating the large events around the state so that the same area isn't having 2-3 large events back to back and no area is waiting more than 3-4 weeks for a large event.
The fall has worked out pretty well for now. The spring gets changed so much every year that it is very hard to organize.
Notice that the only breaks in the schedule are at Easter, Thanksgiving and around Christmas. Out of 52 weeks 25 are B-Tier or above.

Let's look at the DisCrazy Shootout for 2006. 78 players total, 35 coming from somewhere outside of Texas (New Mexico, Colorado, Oklahoma). Very few coming from South or East of Abilene. We rely heavily on out-of-staters for our events here. These players know we put on a good event, and use a very good course (soon to be two very good courses). The majority of these folks would like to see our events keep growing (tier-wise) because they want to play in large events that are somewhat close to their home. With Budweiser signed on as a corporate sponsor, that is where we are heading. As the players/organizers of Texas Disc Golf move towards the type of scheduling proposed here, let's not designate the Top of Texas as dispensible just because the majority of this large state doesn't know what kind of facility we have here, or want to make the trek for the events in this area. I know from my experiences this area is a long way from the rest of our state, but we do have a lot to offer to Texas Disc Golf.

No one is questioning what West Texas Disc Golf has to offer. The West Texas disc golf scene and the players down in the valley near Harligen and Brownsville just happen to be the last guys in the state to be getting themselves organized. Dallas, Houston, Central Texas(austin-s.a.) they've been pretty well organized for awhile with their own tours and tournaments. This doesn't mean that other parts of the state can't catch up fast and include themselves and their courses in on some of these ideas. I'll give the guys in Lubbock and San Angelo a lot of credit for making big strides this year in tournaments and turn out. Heck even the team from Big Spring won emerging at teams a couple weeks ago. Sorry, but you guys aren't flying under the radar anymore people are starting to notice. Chris Cortez has been doing some good work down at the border latley and hope to one day go play some of the new courses they have going in. Alll in all keep up the good work everybody and will get this figured out eventually.

I just want to make sure that the events that I put a lot of effort into aren't designated to a lesser role by people who have no idea about the facility here or the players that do want to attend our events and want to see them grow into something great. I'm very much aware of the history of events and clubs in the other areas of Texas, I've been around the scene for quite some time. I also am aware of the number of players who have traveled to this area for tournaments versus other areas of the state. That ratio is very lopsided, mainly due to the extreme mileage involved.

There aren't many others on this board who are promoting the area I live in (we just don't have the number of PDGA members that other areas have, and definately not as many message board regulars), so I feel obligated to spread the word. If the players want to come and enjoy what we have built here, we'd love to have them. But I don't want to see our work on the PDGA tournament level suppressed just because we are so far from the rest of the state.

As a region, we are not as established as many other regions...its true. But, places like Amarillo and Lubbock (Big Spring too, just not on a 'sanctioned' event level) have good facilities and events.

San Angelo is going to take off within the next few years and Abilene is slowing gaining momentum. Basically, I am just reiterating what johnrock said. I also would encourage anyone who could to make it up to Amarillo the first weekend in May and see for yourself. The DisCrazy Shootout is quickly becoming THE region event of the year. There is a very motivated individual running that ship, and I think anyone would be pleasently surprised by the DG scene in Amarillo.

Im not mad or upset over anything thats been said, just taking a little pride in what I do and the area I do it in. :D

:)Thanks, Jerry. A determined team can get a lot of good stuff done!

It would be interesting to see their Texas Top Ten lists if some of these regular message board posters got to play here everyday like I do. :cool:

Blame the state and southwest airlines! If they'd bought into that Texas High Speed Rail (http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:04b7jwMGY0cJ:www.lib.utexas.edu/taro/tslac/20071/tsl-20071.html+Texas+supertrain&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=10) idea years ago, I'd be able to hop on the rail and be in Lubbock or Amarillo within a couple hours instead of driving for half the day. :(

No need to cast blame anywhere. I've travelled all over this big state (and the country also) to play in flying disc tournaments. I know firsthand what the travel requirements are. I accept the fact that we aren't going to draw very many players from other areas of this state for our events until the financial incentive is in place. But that doesn't change the fact that we are growing our events to reach that goal, and I don't want us to be hindered by the wishes of others who have no intention of travelling here for events unless it's for a big payday. I'm trying to spread the word that there are players (and some very good players) from other states that do want to come here to play and they want to see our events keep growing as they are. I would very much like to be a part of a state-wide series/tour, as long as we aren't designated as a lower class event just because the rest of the Texas players don't want to (or can't financially) make the trek all the way up here to partake in what we are offering.

No one region is being taking for granted. And with that said not one idea �putting it all together� has become a requested standard for what Texas needs. I just think that many of the T.D.�s of TODAY�s Texas golf all wants to take golf to a higher level. I applauded the efforts going on in West Texas and very aware of different regions. It is obvious John Rock will be one of the leaders of his region and I am sure he will agree that his area could use more new players and bigger events highlighting their hard work. There is opportunity to make our highlighted events in ALL the different regions a bigger draw and at the same time events in the same region to grow the am ranks. I am very interested in how the schedule looks for 2007 and will be ASKING the leaders of the different regions to TRY different scenarios that best fit their region.
How we doin Gary?

There is no single system that will work for all of Texas. The number and categories of players differs dramatically across the state. What works well in DFW may not work well in Austin. What works there probably won't work in the Panhandle. But you do need to coordinate with your neighbors and work together to support each other. That includes neighbors in other states.

I haven't heard from a lot of TDs wishing to take advantage of the proposed support system. It looks like there will be a set of linked events in the Austin area. That may be enough to prove out the theory. If it does well in a large market, it may be picked up by DFW and Houston. I don't think it will work well in the smaller markets for now.

I have only two suggestions. In large markets where it is difficult to focus the attention of the area players on a single large event each year, working together to hi-lite one event is a possibility.

In small markets, put on several smaller events throughout the year that focuses on getting new players out and involved in tournaments, get the local pros to put on clinics, teach the rules, and gather resources all year to put into one big event that will draw players from outside the area.

These aren't hard and fast rules, the ADGA follows the small market plan very effectively in the middle of DFW with a dedicated club. The One TD series eventsreally apply the large market plan, but they don't restrict the series to a single large market.

The biggest point is that you need to talk to the other TDs in your area especially and across the state in general.

I agree completely with Jerry and Rock. And this issue is not new. I'm a member in a snow ski club here in Lubbock that is a member of a Texas group. I'm in a safety engineers chapter that is part of a regional group. Population drives where the meetings are held...where disc golf events are held. I've always said that this is understood as long as there is some rotation of meetings (events) to the other areas that are 'qualified'. So, great, have most events (and higher status events) at the population centers, but make sure that the outlying areas have a chance as well, in the future (don't get schedules for a year too set in stone)...and to promote them. We (Lubbock) far exceed the events played and travel miles driven to other events vs those who travel to play here. Most people that play Lubbock or Amarillo put the courses on their top five or so in Texas(I find the top ten lists a little strange when someone has only played a few courses). Just thoughts....all is good.

I am proposing to all the different regions of Texas to work together and promote their area with Amateur events that lead to a pro/advance event in their area.
All of the regions have very large pools of amateurs and the amateur pool in any sport is bigger than the professional pool. And that is the reason for galleries at other sporting events. The growth of our sport has always been centered on growth of the amateur player and should continue to have a strong push. In conjunction I believe we are at a time where the better skilled player should be exposed to larger named sponsors. And the main driving point for a larger company to entertain the idea of sponsoring anything is exposure to their products. Any sport today sponsored by large companies has exposure through media coverage, galleries and product sales.
These would mean more amateur events than pro/advance events, the pro/advance events would benefit from a small percentage of the amateur retail to wholesale profit generated at the amateur events. These would stimulate the pro/advance player attendance.
I have listed my opinions on the pros and cons. I would like to know from a player�s view and the T.D.�s views.
Pro
� Amateur winners are bestowed with self worth by being the highest offered division at the event. (not sharing the lime light with better skilled division winners)
� More room in divisions for amateur players at amateur events.(No pros saved spots)
� Course flexibility centered around the amateur player.(course would not need to cater to pro skill level of play )
� Less preparation by T.D. marking multiple tee boxes.
� T.D. could focus on obtaining added to amateur payout and would not have to obtain required added to pro payout.
� PRO/Advance events could obtain gallery from the amateur base not offered
� Amateur events could obtain gallery/staff from the pro base not offered.
Cons
� T.D. logistic agreement to feed a set small percentage (some trust)
� Less pro /advance events ( but that could be a good thing)
� A agreement with region leaders on place of pro/advance event.(Everyone is proud of their course and believes the best player in the world will play there one day)
� T.D.�s obtain less profit margin on retail to wholesale (There are better ways to make money for the people out there in it to make money and it should not be on the back of a amateur entries)

This not a science but I hope the leaders of the below regions can take my thoughts and decide on the healthiest path for their areas. I am sure I am leaving out a course and I can not know the inter working of the regions on growth and future plans. So there is plenty of room with in the regions to grow. But bottom line a trust amongst the events to highlight one or two events as pro/advance is the goal.





BUT here it is:
South:
Live Oak
Gonzales
Universal City
Kyle
San Marcus
These guys should run c tiers (am events) with Live Oak becoming a A tier (not necessary a pro\advance only event
Costal
Corpus Christi
Beeville
Victoria
Port Author area
These is a good scenario for a rotating b tier pro/advance event (between Vic and Corpus until growth in the region)
Houston
Many events occur in are heading up their state NT
Austin
Many event occur in area heading up the COTO
Dallas
BB Owens
Carrolton
Lewisville
This region could use more events
Arlington/Fort Worth
Cedar hill
Crowley
Z boas
Veterans
Fritz Park
These region is a toughie with all ready strong mind T.D.�s and A tiers events (these IMO should be apart of an rotating Texas NT thing that I think these state needs)
West Texas
Abilene
Lubbock
Amarillo
San Angela
Weatherford
These is a good scenario for a rotating b tier pro/advance event (with a future A tiers)
East Texas
Nachadotoes
Tyler
Athens
These is a good scenario for a rotating b tier pro/advance event until growth in the region

Central
Round Rock
Waco
Temple
Georgetown
These is a good scenario for a rotating b tier pro/advance

I agree this might not work in all regions and should be tried by the larger regions first. Outlaws this year will have a AM only weekend on Labor day, ran by the flyin high folks. With the a % of the proceeds going to the pro,advance and trophy only event the following weekend

get rid of all the small c-tier events and keep the current b-tiers and A-tiers in place
Pecan Park Open-remains the same-great turnout every year
Piney Woods- remains the same-great turnout every year
Outlaw Singles-A-tier using Manor,Wilco,and Old Settlers
COTO-either get rid of it or add Circle C and keep it
Victoria Open and Coastal Clash- rotating B-tier
TX States-keep it but make it a rotating A-tier w/Waco
have 1 B-tier in West TX since they always have low turnouts
North TX series-keep all B and A tiers -have great turnouts at every event
Spring and Oak Meadows Place-revolving B-tier or combine both courses and make it a revolving A-tier with TX States
Add Brian McClain park to LOSO and make it an A-tier
my .02

bump

I am glad to not hear much...
Could be people are looking with in their region and are trying to work out a plan. This will not be a easy thing and will take some serious thought. OR folks just don't care to think outside the box :D

Are you suggesting that we don't have any events other than 1 B-tier in this whole area? That would eliminate several checks to the PDGA, which I'm sure they enjoy recieving there in Augusta, GA. Have you ever participated in an event North of Abilene,TX? Or even West of Abilene? Our turnouts have been getting larger and larger at the events that service this area, and you want to eliminate that growth? Makes no sense to me. If there were more events within 200 miles from my home, I might be inclined to agree with your reasoning, but since there aren't, I'll keep trying to do what I can to provide events that PROFESSIONAL players will enjoy.

I would say at least 2 b tier events in your area...with 3 or 4 c tiers (centered on your amateur player base) supporting the b tiers. And one of your b tiers geared to becoming an A tier. I will say less Pro division offered at events, that would be like having one toilet at a bar.....everyone has to go to that toilet.
If there is 100 toilets�.each one will get a few customers. :D
I am not suggesting exact guide lines but more so the events in your area work together.
Example Big spring runs an Amateur event supporting an event in Lubbock.
I am suggesting next time I go to Lubbock...There is a obvious engagement with BAB by John Rock and Wind Rider engagement with TOT. I am not trying to get a set way of doing things as much as I am trying to get John helping Bobby run each other�s events or Third Coast helping the Victoria fellers out.
An idea players meeting would recognizes the sponsors, the head T.D. and all the other cities engagement. I think West Texas Is further along than most regions by creating the west Texas newsletter. I would like to see the day Gordon Kelley�s mass e-mail would not be needed because every region is in each other�s business. And if your disc golf business is not open to the rest of Texas....then I would say you are selfish to just your event and don't have interest in growing Texas Disc Golf.

Or better yet, meet us all in Big Spring in the spring of '07 for the West Texas Disc Golf Championships. Plenty of good engagements happening there! ;)

As far as me helping the Lubbock group, well........I'll have to get back to you on that.

love is hard and you have to work at it

Can we quote you on that love thang? :D

Its good to see that our newsletter has gotten some notice outside our region :D It was started for the very reason this discussion was....to get people on the same page.

And, I think your idea for our region is already taking shape. 2 B-Tier events (BAB and I believe DisCrazy is moving up this year). With 3-4 smaller events (Wild Hair, Cruch on the Concho will be sanctioned this year, Cotten Pickin', TOT). As far as one moving toward an A-Tier....Discrazy might fit that in the not too distant future. (Im tellin' you....DisCrazy could be HUGE one day). BAB could fit that as well....more people around the state recognize and have played it . Although, I think the April Big Spring event (under one name or another) has been around longer...though never sanctioned to my knowledge.

I think our region is getting more cohesive and I hope that the state as a whole can as well. Good discussion on this thread.

By the way, if anyone reading this would like a copy of our newsletter, send me an e-mail address to [email protected] I will be taking over the editing/publishing duties starting with the January issue.

Is a one sided love affair worth the cost?


I am suggesting next time I go to Lubbock...There is a obvious engagement with BAB by John Rock and Wind Rider engagement with TOT. I am not trying to get a set way of doing things as much as I am trying to get John helping Bobby run each other�s events



I haven't seen any indication that this will ever happen.

And just why might that be, Mr. Rock?

Let me rephrase that by saying that some of the Lubbock players are trying to make amends for the transgressions of the few who don't care about neighborly courtesy. But there still seems to be that lingering hatred and spiteful feelings by some that want to disrupt the cohesiveness of the region.

who are they?(pm me) and allow me table the issue. Lets resolve, we all want the same goal

I'm not sure about the rest of West Texas, but L-town is supportive of any tournaments and events that take place in our area. We travel to Amarillo, Abilene, Big Spring, Roswell, Ft. Stockton, etc. to play in their events. I think our players would be in favor of more communication and cooperation between our various DG communities. These areas that we travel to do NOT, for the most part, recipricate. I'm not sure what it would take to get more communication and cooperation regarding tournament scheduling, series-type events, etc. Personally, I think Vinnie's ideas are sound and would like to work towards making it happen.

My goal when I started the newsletter was to better communications and relationships in this region. Things have improved this last year, and I think they will only get better. I want to showcase our region events in the newsletters this year and try to get a copy in the hands of as many disc golfers as possible.

BAB has seen some decline the last few years, but its a long standing event at a quality course. I would like to see it regain some prominance. Abilene might attend the BAB more if it wasnt so close to our annual event. Maybe a date change for one of the events...?

I dont know much about the issues between Lubbock and Rock, but Vinnies right......we got to get them worked out before any collaboration is possible. Lubbock and Amarillo would be the lead Disc Golf areas of this region and would host the lead events of the region.

Your neighbors don't reciprocate? You mean like if one of your neighbors has been constantly supporting your club and town for years and years (even before there were Disc Golf baskets in the ground in your town), then maybe some of your club should maybe travel to that neighbor's event? Or maybe if a neighbor has constantly supported your events for years and years, maybe there should be some communication between the two entities when it's time to schedule events for the upcoming year? Give me a BREAK! Now you're trying to say the same thing that I was trying to make you see years ago!

You really made me mad when you decided you were going to schedule your event on top of ours, even after I explained what I felt the problem was and moved our event so there wouldn't be that conflict again. Your response was, "Change your event date, we are having ours 2 weeks ahead of yours again, regardless of what you think. Come on, work with me, I'll do something for you.... uh ......later". Well, talk is cheap, and I'd had enough of the empty promises. I felt it was time you started reciprocating some of the effort I put into the Lubbock scene over the years. Maybe you just didn't realize what I've done to help your club, like hauling my basket to Lubbock for Flying Disc events since I bought it in 1989 (how many of you remember the putting and accuracy contests at the Buffalo Beano Kite Fly and Frisbee Fling?), or becoming a dues paying member of your club, or even helping for 3 years in a row with the "Hackey Sack and Frisbee" Festivals that happened before the course was installed in Mahon Park (remember Mahon Park?). There has been a lot of work done to get Lubbock Disc Golf to where it is, and not all of it was done by Lubbock locals. I'm not interested in arguing with you about the same old crap, and since we didn't see any support from Lubbock at the Top of Texas Open that year, I decided not to help with the Lubbock Disc Golf scene any more (even though I was a dues paying member of the Windriders from the beginning). You know, you do your thing, we'll do our's. Maybe that was not the best way to react to your attitude, but I don't have much patience for people that can't respect what others have done to advance the sport of Disc Golf. In spite of what you and your clique thought, my contributions to the Lubbock Disc Golf scene are missed by many players in this region. There have been several attempts by some of the Lubbock group to regain the level of support that I demonstrated before you took over.

The Chains of the Plains newsletter is a step in the right direction, thanks Patrick and Jerry. Hopefully we can get people working together instead of this "Us against You" mentality that has been so noticeable from some of the people here in this region.

With all of the time and energy we give to this sport with no expectation of a return, why is it that things given to our brothers carry the highest expectations of payback ? And the highest penalty if payback does not reach expectations ?

This is one reason I hate the rotating $100 sponsorship.

I'll give you $100 for your event as long as you remember to give me $100 when my event rolls around.
P.S. I'll be really upset if you forget.

In reality it's "I'll list you as a T-shirt sponsor of my event if you'll list me as a T-shirt sponsor of your event".

If you have a problem with a date given to a sanctioned event, tell me. I gave it to the event (unless it's an A-Tier or above). If I can't get it fixed that year, I can probably get it done the next. Sometimes many things prevent getting things fixed. I've been trying to get BAB and the TX10 dates split for years. It's not always as easy as I would like.

If you have a problem with the schedule, take it up with me, but don't punish your players and the players of another club by keeping them apart. (This could apply to some clubs closer to DFW as well).

My point is we shouldn't have to go as far as a State Coordinator. When I found out that our neighbor was moving their event date to conflict with ours (after explaining why I didn't think it was in the best interest of the region), I contacted the neighbor and asked repeatedly they not schedule their event 2 weeks ahead of ours. I got nowhere :confused:. So we had to take it up with the PDGA representative at the time. No way it should have gone that far in the hole. Simple courtesy would have dictated that the organizers should have gotten together to work it out BEFORE a public announcement of "This is what we are going to do, whether you like it or not" was made. If any players felt punished over this incident, one look at the whole picture should have generated action against this neighbor who showed complete disregard for the entire region.

My point is that one club should never attempt to punish or avoid another club even if the other club is being or has been intentionally unreasonable and agravating (which I am not saying any club in Texas is doing or has done).

Separate point, any problem with the schedule has to come to me. I have to find a suitable date for one of the events to move to. If one moves, then all of the new neighbors to the new date have to be looked at.

So we had to take it up with the PDGA representative at the time.



God, I hope that wasn't me, I seen to remember something about it. I think that was right about the time I actually started doing something with the schedule.

Well, some things just never change....

We support area events by traveling to play in them. The reciprication I was referring to was the same efforts that we put forth. When we send 12-18 players to an area event, I'd call that support. When our neighbors send 0-3, I wouldn't call that support. Simple statement. If we can't even provide this kind of support for each other, I would find it hard to imagine support involving money......

We got you the first time Bobby. Just because you show up for their event, it does not obligate them to show up for yours (unless there is some secret and binding agreement I am not aware of).

Just because no one from Dallas ever goes to Houston doesn't mean that Houston players should avoid DFW events or vice-versa. There may be a conspiracy, it doesn't matter.

To intentionally attempt to reduce participation of players you can influence at certain events based on anything other than the quality of those events is wrong, period. Promoters of the sport should promote participation at all quality events.
They should also make an attempt to help less than quality events improve before avioding them.

But, that's just my take on things.

Let's be perfectly clear........I have never discouraged anyone from attending any events in Lubbock. In fact, a few weeks before they happen, I make sure to announce them at all of our weekly and monthly minis. There is usually a flyer posted on the course sign for a few weeks prior. And, I also try to encourage whoever is planning to attend to try to gather a collection for a donation to the event. If no one is planning on attending or doesn't want to follow up on the collection, that's out of my hands.

I know there have been quite a few players from here attending the Lubbock events. In fact, for the October event, didn't I notice there were 8 of the Amarillo regulars? Something like 15-20% of the field. That's pretty good support. We just don't have that many travelling players to match Lubbock's number of travellers. We have a bunch of regular players (lots of casual players), but not too many of them are interested in playing elsewhere. But then again, when you consider the course here, who can blame them? ;)

Then it's settled, and everybody is ready to fully support each other and help get things going in the other west Texas towns that have courses. It's really an exciting time with many of the older courses getting back into the mix as well as new courses stepping up and running tournaments. With support from Lubbock, Amarillo and Abilene the region should be thriving in no time.

Sounds like a West Texas Series :D
All things can be fixed if there is talking between the groups.If nothing is said nothing is learned.
I have know Bobby for a good peice and have lots of respect for the Rock (just sounds like home). You fellers are leaders in your area and both MEN that can meand them fences.

Sponsoring Opportunities
These possibilities are tools that will benefit the growth of Disc golf and should be everyone�s obligation to our sport.
T.D.�s of an event have the responsibility to obtain sponsorship and all players of Disc Golf share the same responsibility to make our sport grow. So get the word out, not everyone reads the board.
� Consider during your sanctioned event to raffle off donated merchandise with the proceeds going to another sanctioned event.
�Local individuals/corporations are approached or should be approached to obtain sponsorship. Sponsors most times provide some form of merchandise that could be used for the raffle�
� Approach new in-common merchants between your event and another event about possible sponsorship for both events.
�You are going to hit the streets for sponsors, so after you seal the deal for your event it wouldn�t hurt for a plug to support another event�
� Approach established in-common sponsors to sponsors another event.
�You never know the merchant that has work with your event for a long time may know a guy in the city of another event�
� Consider during local a mini to hold ctps for a small entry fee with the proceeds benefiting an event.
�Merchandise you would of donated to an event and we all do, could be used for the ctps. The challenge would be in ensuring the proceeds are donated to the event. The ctp proceeding event should be announced and the disc golfer should police. Share these idea with all the mini T.D.�s in your city�
� Approach wealthy individuals on cash sponsorship to an event.
�If you are lucky enough to have a relationship with those lucky few that enjoy disc golf and got the big bucks. Test the water with the individual about sponsoring your event or another event.�
When approaching sponsors you have to keep in mind the return benefit to the sponsor. This is the art form of a salesmanship or the act of a carnival vender. You have to pump them up of the idea of sponsorship. You also have the responsibility to ensure the sponsor get recognized at the event and follow up on the benefited return with the sponsor to set the foundation for the next year.

bump.

Just want to keep this thread where peeps can see it....keep it on the brain.

true dat.
lets hear what is working and what is NOT

Is it time to think about following California's lead and split our state into different regions with different coordinators?

We all appreciate what Gary had done in the few years he's been our coordinator, but maybe the job is too much. Why did California split the duties? Would it be benficial to divide the state horizontally? Instead of trying several local regions, maybe something like everything North of Waco is one region and everything South is the other? It might be easier for scheduling purposes, or maybe not?

Not sure what the answer is. I would love to see some kind of State series, but Texas is big. Getting organized is the hardest part. Maybe some kind of State association like Michigan has?

We basically have three regions for scheduling now.

Everything north of I-20 and west of I-35 plus all of DFW is one region.
Everything south of I-20 and west of US-77 is one region.
Everything east of I-20 and east of US-77 is one region.
Amarillo and Corpus are two more areas that are not limited by region.

C-Tiers are allowed to go against events in other regions.
In some cases when both events push for it, B-Teirs go against other B-Tiers. I tried very hard to keep B-Tiers isolated and
force C-Tiers to share weekends, but with the shuffling of A-Tiers and holidays, there are 5-8 events that have to move around each year and it is impossible to keep everything clean.

Is there any reason that you would like to see two or three independent schedules in Texas ?
Having independent schedules would just make it harder to see what is happening on the same weekend.

Just exploring ideas. What was the reasoning for the California split? That is the only state that has 2 coordinators.

Not that there is anything wrong with what you're doing, just putting ideas on the table.

I'm just thinking if the problems we're having here were the same reasons that prompted the split in California, maybe that's the route to a solution. I don't read much about the California scene, so I don't know why they utilize the split state strategy. I'm pretty sure it may have something to do with large population centers that have large mileage gaps between them. That's similar to what we are experiencing. I'm assuming they schedule their area events locally first, then check with neighbors' schedules and make any necessary adjustments.

It may help us more to explore the state-wide association strategy, but I can see serious obstacles in that approach, mainly mileage. Even this type of approach will likely result in regions, whether it be Two or Ten.

The Cali split occurred historically in an area where initial growth of the sport occurred and those dense population centers were separated by a large distance in the same state. I suspect if DG originated in Texas, a similar split may have occurred there back in the 80s. There's no reason the Texas contingents can't propose a split now considering that Texas has long passed California in course growth in all sections and has just as much distance separation as CA. Each of the two or three Texas sectors would likely be larger than many states in size, courses and player population.

Splitting into regions?
Having regional championships?
Regions� working to ensure Texas has a BIG state wide championship called a N.T.?
WHERE HAVE I HEARD THAT BEFORE?
The real question is who is going to define the regions and who are the heads of these regions?

My proposal, for a basic start:

Gary's job
1) Gary finds one date per month, that does not compete with holidays, worlds, am national doubles, and the Okie NT.

2) Gary divides the state into sensible and broad regions. I say DFW, Houston, Central Texas, Third Coast, East Texas and West Texas.

3) Gary gives these dates to the regions above, according to the number of golfers. I assume something like:
DFW (3) one of which goes to Waco if someone will run it
Central Texas (3) one of which goes to SA
Houston (2)
Third Coast (2)
East Texas (1)
West Texas (1)

These numbers are open to debate and at this point are not that critical, so don't get hung up on them.

4) Gary makes a first cut in distributing those dates to the regions.

5) The regions attempt to work out amongst themselves a way of distributing those dates within the region. Preference should obviously be given to established TDs/clubs AND events where two courses can be used.

6) The regions report back to Gary who sets those dates in stone. Those are the dates that are provided protection from competing against other PDGA sanctioned events. ALL OTHER DATES AND TOURNEYS WILL NOT BE PROVIDED PROTECTION and each region can feel free to schedule whatever they want without worrying about PDGA conflicts.

Benefits
1) Texas will have a schedule where the bigger events are spaced appropriately and protected. Hopefully these events will be well run and on two courses. This will help the travelling golfers who like the bigger events.

2) Allows regions great flexibility in filling up the remaining weekends with local tourneys that appeal to the non-traveling folks.

3) Gary doesn't have to worry about juggling what is now a near unmanageable schedule, and appeasing every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

Pitfalls
I anticipate some squabbling amongst people within regions. If they can't come to agreement and get back to Gary, he will have to put his foot down and give the dates to whom he thinks is most capable and can meet the two course requirement.

I say we got a new president my vote goes to Mccaine :D

The Cali split occurred historically in an area where initial growth of the sport occurred and those dense population centers were separated by a large distance in the same state. I suspect if DG originated in Texas, a similar split may have occurred there back in the 80s. There's no reason the Texas contingents can't propose a split now considering that Texas has long passed California in course growth in all sections and has just as much distance separation as CA. Each of the two or three Texas sectors would likely be larger than many states in size, courses and player population.



I don't see a split as an advantage. Texas is in the unique position of being the largest pool of disc golf players and events (in theory based on size etc.). Instead of splitting, we need to figure out what's been proposed over and over, how to build a Texas sized series that works. In essence, Texas 10 did this; funny that it took an Aussie to do this. What it takes is someone who is willing to structure the events and make it work. Easily said...

The Texas 10 succeeded because one day events make it feasible for people to travel home after the event and still have a full Sunday for personal affairs. Also, to the best of my knowledge Himing didn't asked for a whole lot of permission from existing TD's. He avoided historical tournaments, but more or less grabbed the schedule by the horns and put in his events. If T.D.'s are serious about making a series or Tour for the state of Texas, contact someone from another state that has had success and find out what makes it work. Our T.D.'s talk a great game but in the 10 years I have been playing, turnouts for tournaments have not improved, especially in the open field. In fact, I would argue that with so many tournaments per weekend and people travelling less than in the past, turnouts have diminished. With the current state of payout and sponsorship in our sport, there is not a single tournament that is economically feasible to travel to and play for an average open player or any amateur player, so it is not surprising that people are less willing to travel.

Our T.D.'s talk a great game

:D

My advice is to totally give up on the "state series" idea. Just let each region do their own thing. If they can get cooperation to do a regional series, or if people like Team Justice do it, even better, but don't try to institute it from the top down. Let it evolve. If it evolves, great; if it doesn't, well.

What we have now is the worst of both worlds. It sucks for travelling folks, because no events are big anymore, and it sucks for the non-travelling folks, because scheduling conflicts prevent more local PDGA events.

Whether we split or not, since we are using 3 different groups to schedule, why not see if we can get 3 spots for the next USDGC?

ware has great input

<font color="blue">Post deleted by author, thereby saving the moderation team the trouble.</font>

I agree. Unless someone could totally devote their time and energy to a State Series..I dont think it can happen. And even if you did, thats not to say that a person could make it work like Himing did. Part of what made his event work was the fact that he did come from outside...no history or past issues to work out, just presented his product and the players came in droves.

Theres so many "local" events now that people dont have to travel...and, thats good. Its great in W. Tx that we have a big event in the late Spring, a big event in the late Fall, and a bunch of smaller (sanctioned or not) events in between. Abilene may be soon getting a second course and possibly add a 3rd big event. Short of an Am World Champoinship in Tx, only a small percentage of our region will travel outside of it. Most everyone can get their tournament needs filled locally. With the saturation of events southeast of us, its the same thing. Still, my dream would be to see a state series evolve with a monster final event (PDGA major, SN championship, etc)

The Texas 10 succeeded because one day events make it feasible for people to travel home after the event and still have a full Sunday for personal affairs. Also, to the best of my knowledge Himing didn't asked for a whole lot of permission from existing TD's. He avoided historical tournaments, but more or less grabbed the schedule by the horns and put in his events. If T.D.'s are serious about making a series or Tour for the state of Texas, contact someone from another state that has had success and find out what makes it work. Our T.D.'s talk a great game but in the 10 years I have been playing, turnouts for tournaments have not improved, especially in the open field. In fact, I would argue that with so many tournaments per weekend and people travelling less than in the past, turnouts have diminished. With the current state of payout and sponsorship in our sport, there is not a single tournament that is economically feasible to travel to and play for an average open player or any amateur player, so it is not surprising that people are less willing to travel.



I think a lot of it points back to "Timing is everything." The State didn't have a traveling series since the days of "Circular Skies Over (insert city here)", and with the sports growth, and the abundance of new blood willing to travel, it seems that "Timing WAS everything."

The shear number of courses throwing their own events, and with regional series happening across regions the size of some NE states, traveling has lost it's appeal. It's definitely harder to lure traveling players nowadays. Maybe more gimmicky things are needed like the $10,000 hole in one, or throw an ace and win a car.

The notion that people won't travel or can't is based on not understanding what makes people travel and what they are looking for. There is a large group of local people who do travel from Houston. But they are selective. Those people regularly hit:

COTO
WATERLOO
SNOWFARM
TEXAS TEAMS
TEXAS 10

These events offer(ed) unique experiences that aren't duplicated in every event. In some ways, the PDGA notion of making all events the same is a mistake. Those events are attractive because they are unique and special. A series based on the most unique events in the state would be popular. A series based on uniform events that offer little that is dynamic will fail.


BTW - as James has pointed out, you don't need a statewide series, but there is no question that a regional series that offers nothing unique or special won't last long either. Take local events here. Those unique events that occur still pull, but the series that have occurred here have not faired well long term. They weren't unique enough IMO. The Moffitt Show brings out players I never see at other events.

We've forgotten how disc golf grew. It grew out of those unique events that people went to and loved.

to exczar:

Best way to get the USDGC spot? Move to Wyoming. I'm the only Wyoming player who has ever gone. The year I was State Coordinator all the other PDGA members from Wyoming were amateurs, so guess who got to be state rep?

It isn't really fair, and I wouldn't do it again. Why should a state with one pro (in his 60's) get as many state rep slots as a state with a pile of pros?

To dispel a few rumors about the Texas 10 and scheduling.

Chris and I worked very hard at making sure his events were scheduled as much as possible to avoid interference with other events. Every year we would look at his dates and split them between north, south, and both. I would request that certain dates be used in certain areas to avoid having back to back large events in the same area as much as possible. He always worked with me to fit the dates in.

One reason I think it did so well was it's target audience and cost. He aimed the events at newer players. He averaged no less than 40 new players (never played a TX10 nor had a PDGA number) at every event. Stop and think about that. That is nearly 400 new players introduced to tournament golf every year, year in and year out. I kept the stats for the tour, and it was one that I always had trouble believing.

The events were consistent and well run so returning players new what to expect from one event to another.

Another reason that it did so well was that he made a production out of the event. You had fun at a Texas 10 whether you played well or not. All of the minor things that some TDs forget were always taken care of. All you had to do was show up and play.

The events were one day, two round outings that didn't take the whole weekend and yet were very well organized. They felt like big B-Tiers even though they were unsanctioned one day events.

Add to that the fact that the TX10 events were some of the best attended events in the state, everyone likes to play in a big field. Success builds success.

Peter,

Unfortunately, all my wife's family lives here in the Metroplex, so a relo is out of the question:

"Hey, honey, guess what? We're moving to Wyoming!"

"Wha-what? What part of Texas is that in?"

"It's not IN Texas. I meant the STATE of Wyoming."

"Well, tell me about this fantastic job you have waiting for you there!"

"Ummmm &lt;cough&gt;usdgc&lt;cough&gt;&lt;cough&gt;"

"I'm sorry, Sweetie, what was that!"

"Errr, um, &lt;cough&gt; state spot &lt;cough&gt;"

"I'm sorry, I'm not following you."

"OK, it's like this. Unless I get a special dispensation, I will never get to play in _THE_UNITED_STATES_DISC_GOLF_CHAMPIONSHIPS_ unless I can take a spot that is reserved from someone in each state. And I looked at the demographics, and I think that Wyoming is my best shot. Well, what do you say? You KNOW how important disc golf is to me? How often do I ask you for something? Just this once. After I get the spot, we'll move back here I promise! OK? Honey? Where are you going? Why are you opening that up? Oh, honey, no! Please! Not the Shuttle Puppy! Do you know how long I have had that? Do you know how many people would love to.. No, please. Please, put it back! Please, don't....

!OW!


And so it goes :(


Where was this event back in the 1980s when I was GOOD?

&lt;/whine&gt;

thanks bill and peter for you inpuTT

Please forgive my ignorance, but what does that "TT" thing refer to?

How far do typical Texas players travel?

There are several players here in Texas that will typically average hundreds (maybe thousands) of travel miles for golf events every year. However, the majority of players rarely venture outside of their immediate area, mainly those in the big metropolitan areas (DFW, Austin, Houston, etc.), since there are many different types of events to choose from in the population centers. Even here in the Panhandle, a few travel to several events each year, but most just play events within 150 or 200 miles from home. I suspect it has a lot to do with costs, mainly gas and lodging, but also event costs are going up. Then factor in the need to get home in time to get ready for work on Mondays. Add all that together and you get players sticking closer to home base.

I don't believe we should reduce the amount of PDGA events, many players want them, and the PDGA needs them. Is it possible to create one big PDGA series that covers the needs of all of Texas' golfers? Probably not. This state is simply too big. Any attempts to reduce any area's events will likely result in more fracturing, and possible loss of PDGA sanctioning. I believe that areas are going to host events whether or not the PDGA is involved, so let's not try to take away the small events, or demote events that are not heavily attended by other parts of our state.

It seems that the regional approach is going to happen, even the ones here making the most noise about Texas Disc Golf are already dividing up the state. Is it possible to have one person in charge that coordinates with the PDGA? Yes, Gary has done it for several years and has done a very good job. Would it be better to have more than one coordinator or a state-wide governing body? That's a toss-up. Many obstacle would have to be overcome to install a state association.

I'm leaning towards a regional type set-up.

Please forgive my ignorance, but what does that "TT" thing refer to?


They all wish they were RheTT. :D

that was hilarious exczar, my wife fears some sort of conversation like that someday! lol

Why not just codify the regional series that exist or are currently becoming the norm.

You've got the North Texas Series - HOTT - Birdshot - etc.

Make each series a bonus award series (if they aren't already) and then make a single Big Final event at the back end that requires you to play in 2 of a series events and the event final to qualify for the Big Final.

First, your recognizing that with the cost of gas etc., that people want to play local events. Second, you recognizing that series events are popular and seem to work well. Third, you build on a loose structure that is already in place and working. Fourth, you tie those regional events into a Statewide event that promotes play in the regional series. The events outside those regional series typically pull well on their own so won't be negatively affected, and you begin to codify a structure without really forcing one.

Gary's job is to organize the regions so there isn't conflict (as much as possible) and to award the final event to the best bidder (similar to what the PDGA does) That final event can be any event in the state. The benefit is the tie in to the series and a pass on of the series bonus (or some part of it).

Everytime I see you're screen name, Herm Edwards' "You. play. to. win. the. game." quote pops into my head. :)

Sorry for the thread drift. :p

Interesting idea Lyle, does that mean that we try to schedule all of the individual series events on the same weekends (so they don't interfere with non-series events) or try to schedule them where they don't interfere with each other ?

Just a few disjointed ideas on why this would have a hard time working.

Since they are admittedly local series events, there should be 8-10 weekends set aside for local series events to share. Then the larger PDGA B-Tier events can have a little more separation and possibly better drawing potential.

One problem is that the Houston series is a set of C-Tiers aimed at the local market. The DFW and HOTT series are both a collection of existing B-Tiers that look for a large draw and local C-Tiers.

Then there are 6-10 large events that fall outside of the major markets, but draw from more than one of them and impact scheduling in the major markets.

No one outside of Mace has been able to hold a series together long enough to build a serious statewide tour around it. Chris got close, but had to split time between the tour and a real job just when the tour could have really taken off.

How about a Texan in the top 10 or top 25. That's what I'd like to see. We have none. Texas DG is better than that. That comes from better competition. So, lets make it better for the open divison to make Texas DG better.

How about a Texan in the top 10 or top 25. That's what I'd like to see. We have none. Texas DG is better than that. That comes from better competition. So, lets make it better for the open divison to make Texas DG better.




You could try to make a claim for Coda if you wanted too. :D

Oklahoma is just North Texas anyway.

Oklahoma is just North Texas anyway.



....and Texas is merely northern Mexico.

I think we vote in a wiener and tator (don't want to get banned for the correct wording) and each region have a rep. on THE COMMITTY. 5 folks working the Texas thing for a better Texas DG.
Texas is too big for one guy. The wiener/tator would have to have the last word. (more than likely [censored] someone off) So he/she would have to have a level head and a good understanding of the DG here in Texas.

Let me begin by fleshing out the concept a bit more (Gary pointed out some real flaws).

Each regional would be comprised of C-tier events. Those independent events that have been incorporated into HOTT and the North series would be bounced out to be run as independent events. In a perfect world those events would all be B-tiers and have a unique signature (say like COTO or Waterloo). I even like the notion of using different formats than standard PDGA to make them really unique, but I'm not advocating that here. The C-tiers would all conflict at will since their goal is to allow local players to participate in a well run non-intimidating group of events. Players that want to travel to the unique events could do so.


Interesting idea Lyle, does that mean that we try to schedule all of the individual series events on the same weekends (so they don't interfere with non-series events) or try to schedule them where they don't interfere with each other ?

<font color="red">As above, in this model I'd not worry about conflicting in the regional series (now that I've thought about it). Keep those unique events separate and unique. They're special and represent what is best about disc golf per say.</font>


Just a few disjointed ideas on why this would have a hard time working.

Since they are admittedly local series events, there should be 8-10 weekends set aside for local series events to share. Then the larger PDGA B-Tier events can have a little more separation and possibly better drawing potential.

One problem is that the Houston series is a set of C-Tiers aimed at the local market. The DFW and HOTT series are both a collection of existing B-Tiers that look for a large draw and local C-Tiers.

<font color="red"> I think I dealt with this above. but I do wonder how much the B tiers draw from other regions? I doubt they're moving more than a couple of players from the Houston area unless they're something really special (of course I could look and may do so). I think the issues of travel and cost are just getting too big. The structure of the sport is changing. You have more and more mainstream guys who are doing it who just can't travel. As I described above, what I would want if I had ultimate power (that is, if I were Dick Cheney) is to move the real events out of the series and make them stand alone. Obviously they'd have to be well established to do well, but all of them were, that being the reason they've become part of the regionals. Yes, you'd have to convince HOTT and Mace to restructure their series, but that is to each group's advantage. You give Mace a controlling series required for play in the biggest event in the state. Same goes for Mitch (and his relationship to Millennium). [As an aside, if it were me, I'd consider going to Millennium and giving them an exclusive payout for the series with a tie in for sponsorship at the final event. While some will be irked at the payout in the regionals, Millennium would benefit hugely and you'd have a financial structure in place to promote the whole thing. You might even get them to go for an 80 - 20 arrangement where 80% of the payout is Millennium and the other 20 is DC, Innova Gateway etc.] </font>

Then there are 6-10 large events that fall outside of the major markets, but draw from more than one of them and impact scheduling in the major markets.

<font color="red"> I'd start by scheduling the big events then move the local series around those. Those big events would include the events that are currently folded into the regionals</font>

No one outside of Mace has been able to hold a series together long enough to build a serious statewide tour around it. Chris got close, but had to split time between the tour and a real job just when the tour could have really taken off.

<font color="red">I think what I'd try and do is motivate the local clubs to take responsibility for those events i.e. series. That is, if the TD, in this case Mike and others for Birdshot, step aside, the local club maintains the series. You have to make the series important and central to getting to the big event. Locals who want to play that big event will have a vested interest in keeping the series going. BTW - I'd make those series all one day events. The object is in part to avoid burnout by having everyone play extended events all season long. Keep it more local and easy with only those special events pushing people to travel.</font>




More questions please:


BTW - in the final big event I'd definitely have some kind of a series competition. That is, series point winner or best performers play in a competition at the big event for regional recognition. Not as big as Texas Teams, but still prestige. In fact I'd play as much off of the regional events as possible since that gives them prestige and builds on them as wanna play in events.

I fully admit that to get this to work you need local support for the series, but view it this way. There's no question locals want local series that are well run. People loved John's events when they were local. One way to make this work is to take some of the labor out of it. The state coordinator sets everything up and gets PDGA approval (perhaps we can work some kind of a fast track deal with them) Make the set up and functionality as easy as possible so that if you lose your TD it isn't a burden for someone or some group to step up. Get the leaders in each area to support the regionals so that it isn't a question. Also, since the regionals all cross cover, scheduling them becomes easier. You have them all on the same day. One thing to think about this is that everyone in the Houston Regional knows that the Dallas Regional is going on and will be paying attention. Cross interest builds as does the smack. Then you've got your regional cross play (say a scramble) at the final final event where that all plays out.

One thing to note. TS has had some issues with bodies lately. Everyone ends up stepping up because they feel the event is important. You need the same feel for these regional series. They are what's important.

Let me begin by fleshing out the concept a bit more (Gary pointed out some real flaws).

Each regional would be comprised of C-tier events. Those independent events that have been incorporated into HOTT and the North series would be bounced out to be run as independent events. In a perfect world those events would all be B-tiers and have a unique signature (say like COTO or Waterloo). I even like the notion of using different formats than standard PDGA to make them really unique, but I'm not advocating that here. The C-tiers would all conflict at will since their goal is to allow local players to participate in a well run non-intimidating group of events. Players that want to travel to the unique events could do so.


Interesting idea Lyle, does that mean that we try to schedule all of the individual series events on the same weekends (so they don't interfere with non-series events) or try to schedule them where they don't interfere with each other ?

<font color="red">As above, in this model I'd not worry about conflicting in the regional series (now that I've thought about it). Keep those unique events separate and unique. They're special and represent what is best about disc golf per say.</font>


Just a few disjointed ideas on why this would have a hard time working.

Since they are admittedly local series events, there should be 8-10 weekends set aside for local series events to share. Then the larger PDGA B-Tier events can have a little more separation and possibly better drawing potential.

One problem is that the Houston series is a set of C-Tiers aimed at the local market. The DFW and HOTT series are both a collection of existing B-Tiers that look for a large draw and local C-Tiers.

<font color="red"> I think I dealt with this above. but I do wonder how much the B tiers draw from other regions? I doubt they're moving more than a couple of players from the Houston area unless they're something really special (of course I could look and may do so). I think the issues of travel and cost are just getting too big. The structure of the sport is changing. You have more and more mainstream guys who are doing it who just can't travel. As I described above, what I would want if I had ultimate power (that is, if I were Dick Cheney) is to move the real events out of the series and make them stand alone. Obviously they'd have to be well established to do well, but all of them were, that being the reason they've become part of the regionals. Yes, you'd have to convince HOTT and Mace to restructure their series, but that is to each group's advantage. You give Mace a controlling series required for play in the biggest event in the state. Same goes for Mitch (and his relationship to Millennium). [As an aside, if it were me, I'd consider going to Millennium and giving them an exclusive payout for the series with a tie in for sponsorship at the final event. While some will be irked at the payout in the regionals, Millennium would benefit hugely and you'd have a financial structure in place to promote the whole thing. You might even get them to go for an 80 - 20 arrangement where 80% of the payout is Millennium and the other 20 is DC, Innova Gateway etc.] </font>

Then there are 6-10 large events that fall outside of the major markets, but draw from more than one of them and impact scheduling in the major markets.

<font color="red"> I'd start by scheduling the big events then move the local series around those. Those big events would include the events that are currently folded into the regionals</font>

No one outside of Mace has been able to hold a series together long enough to build a serious statewide tour around it. Chris got close, but had to split time between the tour and a real job just when the tour could have really taken off.

<font color="red">I think what I'd try and do is motivate the local clubs to take responsibility for those events i.e. series. That is, if the TD, in this case Mike and others for Birdshot, step aside, the local club maintains the series. You have to make the series important and central to getting to the big event. Locals who want to play that big event will have a vested interest in keeping the series going. BTW - I'd make those series all one day events. The object is in part to avoid burnout by having everyone play extended events all season long. Keep it more local and easy with only those special events pushing people to travel.</font>




More questions please:


BTW - in the final big event I'd definitely have some kind of a series competition. That is, series point winner or best performers play in a competition at the big event for regional recognition. Not as big as Texas Teams, but still prestige. In fact I'd play as much off of the regional events as possible since that gives them prestige and builds on them as wanna play in events.

I fully admit that to get this to work you need local support for the series, but view it this way. There's no question locals want local series that are well run. People loved John's events when they were local. One way to make this work is to take some of the labor out of it. The state coordinator sets everything up and gets PDGA approval (perhaps we can work some kind of a fast track deal with them) Make the set up and functionality as easy as possible so that if you lose your TD it isn't a burden for someone or some group to step up. Get the leaders in each area to support the regionals so that it isn't a question. Also, since the regionals all cross cover, scheduling them becomes easier. You have them all on the same day. One thing to think about this is that everyone in the Houston Regional knows that the Dallas Regional is going on and will be paying attention. Cross interest builds as does the smack. Then you've got your regional cross play (say a scramble) at the final final event where that all plays out.

One thing to note. TS has had some issues with bodies lately. Everyone ends up stepping up because they feel the event is important. You need the same feel for these regional series. They are what's important.



So basically if you want to do good in the series you can't travel elsewhere? I know that some people would rather go to a high paying event outside thier own series if there is one. Sorry that is the only problem I have with that since I think we have enough weekends to make most of them on separate dates.

No, we don't really have enough weekends for 4x10 separate weekends plus the 15 or so large B-Tier and above events and holidays and avoiding the middle of the summer.

If all of the series are coordinated and working toward the same finals, attending any of the events should count toward the same goals. If you happen to be in a different city during the "series weekend" or want to play a particular course, you should be able to. We'd have to work out something to balance points out across the board. Some markets will draw larger crowds on average than others.

Long standing large events will need to be handled as special events that count differently somehow. Everything is possible, it will just take getting everyone on the same page working toward an event that is mainly for qualified players. In fact everything will probably be simpler if it is unsanctioned and limited to invitations only. With 4-6 series of events in different parts of the state qualifying players into the event, it should fill easily, and it could rotate from region to region.

No, we don't really have enough weekends for 4x10 separate weekends plus the 15 or so large B-Tier and above events and holidays and avoiding the middle of the summer.

If all of the series are coordinated and working toward the same finals, attending any of the events should count toward the same goals. If you happen to be in a different city during the "series weekend" or want to play a particular course, you should be able to. We'd have to work out something to balance points out across the board. Some markets will draw larger crowds on average than others.

Long standing large events will need to be handled as special events that count differently somehow. Everything is possible, it will just take getting everyone on the same page working toward an event that is mainly for qualified players. In fact everything will probably be simpler if it is unsanctioned and limited to invitations only. With 4-6 series of events in different parts of the state qualifying players into the event, it should fill easily, and it could rotate from region to region.



Heck I didn't realize that the summer was avoided since I am never here for that btu I still don't see it as much of a problem to make at least half of them on separate weekends. How many weekends are used up right now? It seems like there has been a lot of dead space the past few months. Its hard to find a tournament to play. I don't think lesser holidays would be a big deal either as long as there were enough players in the area willing to play.

For example, in the last 7 weeks only three have had TX events. The weather has been pretty good too.

No, we don't really have enough weekends for 4x10 separate weekends plus the 15 or so large B-Tier and above events and holidays and avoiding the middle of the summer.




This a flawed mindset. The old top-down approach that fails us year after year. We need new thinking.

Please, don't have some state final as the goal, at least not at first. Let the regions do their thing, and if it succeeds, try to improve on it.

Matt, feel free to run an event on a holiday weekend.

Matt, feel free to run an event on a holiday weekend.




It seems like there are actually less weekends used than could be is all I'm saying and they aren't ALL holidays.

Next month there is only one tournament in TX. Its a c-tier too.

You've seen the full 2008 schedule already?

Poison Ivy Open, Quail Valley. That's 100% more than you thought. LOL

Poison Ivy Open, Quail Valley. That's 100% more than you thought. LOL



Yeah forgot about the PIO but it isn't even on the schedule and it is in a week right? Anyway that is still only 2 events in 4 weeks.

I'd be more than happy to vote you SC, Matt.

What would be your plan?

I'd be more than happy to vote you SC, Matt.

What would be your plan?



Tell TD's to not but wusses and run tournaments in the winter if they are complaining about not having an open weekend. We live in TX for crying out loud it is like 40 degrees at worse. Seems like there are more winter events in MN then there are here.

We run right up to the second weekend in December, Then start back up the first weekend after New Years. There were more events in January before, but Mace has been moving more toward February every year. No one seems to want to go against the Super Bowl. As soon at the Super Bowl is over, there are 2-3 events every weekend through mid June. (except on Easter).

We run right up to the second weekend in December, Then start back up the first weekend after New Years. There were more events in January before, but Mace has been moving more toward February every year. No one seems to want to go against the Super Bowl. As soon at the Super Bowl is over, there are 2-3 events every weekend through mid June. (except on Easter).




Oh and if I was the SC I would tell Mace to payout better..........

No, we don't really have enough weekends for 4x10 separate weekends plus the 15 or so large B-Tier and above events and holidays and avoiding the middle of the summer.




This a flawed mindset. The old top-down approach that fails us year after year. We need new thinking.

Please, don't have some state final as the goal, at least not at first. Let the regions do their thing, and if it succeeds, try to improve on it.



Sorry James, but I have noticed a few things while I've been here.

First, we are already fractured enough. and really need something to get us all pulling together. Second, players will go out of their way to support and attend a ridiculously large event with oversized payouts.

I would propose a set of series events that happen around the state on the same weekends. It wouldn't matter which events you attended as long as you attended the required number of events. All events pay a little toward a final at Waco(because it's neutral territory) or roving locations.

The larger B-Tiers would be conducted as special events (more points), or completely outside of the series.

But no matter what we do, we need to encourage players to get involved with events and players from the other regions of the state, and resist the convenience of only playing in our own back yards.

I've seen three great ideas here.

Vinnie's notion of a representative from each region is great; I like the notion of Gary having a staff! :D

Gary, having the regionals all count towards the same is very good, i.e. you can play in any regional and get equal points. That way you could play in a different regional if you liked a course or a specific situation. It also builds on regional smack, "hey look, that guy from Houston thinks he's going to pull one in our regional!"

James has a point, don't bite off more than you can chew. Nonetheless, Gary is correct, without the big event tie in you'll actually have a harder time of it. Therefore, I vote for Waco. At least initially. It's too easy to run there instead of trying to move it around. It's a great setting (you'd never guess I've never been there) and it would put the focus onto a setting that started the NT business in Texas.

BTW - Matt is correct, there will be a group of people who will travel for the money. That's why you try and set these regionals so they don't compete against the B and A-tiers. However, it should be noted that the number willing to travel is shrinking. Look at Jim Davidson, look at all of the other great players in the Houston market, none of whom travel. There are some who will, but they're the minority now. They're Pro wannabe's like Matt who are trying to make a living at this, and a few others. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think they represent the average player any more. Matt is thinking about the bigger Pro picture and he's correct, this concept isn't as good for the "Pro" as it is for low level Pro's who wanna make a little cash and have some fun. On the other hand, as a way to organize the state, it is IMO the best way (kudos to James who's idea it was).

I think James has a valid point, but I like Vinnie's point better. Currently we have no incentive to travel with several events a month in every region, there is no reason to go very far. With gas prices rising, this may be a good thing.

Chris had the only series going that was happening in multiple markets and encouraging travel, and it was working. If we promote several local series of events that are not working together, we will be encouraging players not to travel. I think the local series of events should work together toward a large final, and the B-Tiers should work together toward statewide awards (and the USDGC spot).

I really want to see a situation where we are doing something to encourage best players to travel outside of their region to compete. I just don't know what kind of carrot will work (outside of a outside sponsor with deep pockets).

I think the biggest thing that made TX10 so popular is timing (as was previously posted upthread by my personal hero). When Chris started the traveling series, he pretty much had the market cornered. He built on an existing concept by making such a good show out of his events and offering such cool merchandise. The 1-day unsanctioned part also made things cheaper and more reasonable for traveling players.

Since the inception of TX10, the PDGA has (wisely) introduced player ratings. This is an *enormous* draw to PDGA events, much more so than many people are willing to concede. To paraphrase Chuckie, ratings are a very public representation of personal performance and skill. Unsanctioned events don't allow players to improve their rating, so they will lose a lot of traffic to sanctioned events. This is viewed as good and bad by different people, but that is not the topic of discussion here.

Back off of drift, my point is that when TX10 started, series of unsanctioned events had a much bigger chance of success than they do now. He survived the first few years of player ratings because he had an established product that people *really* liked. Mace's North Texas Series has also survived for several years because he has an established product, but he is finding that more and more players want the events to be sanctioned.

The sheer number of events in TX has skyrocketed since the day that Mr. Himing started the TX10. There are significantly more courses and significantly more amateur players, but the number of pros, especially traveling pros, has not increased accordingly. The pros that do travel want to play the biggest events possible (most money to win - makes sense to me), but the overall pro pool is stretched thinner than it was before. The big-draw events will continue to be successful for obvious reasons but I find it hard to imagine a way for 5 or 6 series of events being very successful in TX on their own.

I think the thoughts in this thread are heading down the right path. It's almost like we need to build our own "Southern Nationals" type of organization, just for TX (I don't claim to know the intricacies of how SN really works, so I may be way off there... it just seems similar). I would be happy to support such an organization through whatever means I can. I think Vinne and gnduke (with help from others) could put something together that would really improve the landscape of TX DG.

I think James has a valid point, but I like Vinnie's point better. Currently we have no incentive to travel with several events a month in every region, there is no reason to go very far. With gas prices rising, this may be a good thing.

Chris had the only series going that was happening in multiple markets and encouraging travel, and it was working. If we promote several local series of events that are not working together, we will be encouraging players not to travel. I think the local series of events should work together toward a large final, and the B-Tiers should work together toward statewide awards (and the USDGC spot).

I really want to see a situation where we are doing something to encourage best players to travel outside of their region to compete. I just don't know what kind of carrot will work (outside of a outside sponsor with deep pockets).



In some ways I agree with you and in some ways I don't. The concept of travel and players moving around the state is great. The reality is something different and in fact has always been so.

I do think you can do some things about it but in limited ways. I think you have to start with the battles you can win. A prominent local/regional series works incredibly well towards building participation in the sport. Having a payoff event that is tied to the regional series will move players that would normally not travel to do so. This is a win win. Getting people to travel beyond that is going to be tough. If, and that's a big if, you can get the B-tiers to work together then you can get some travel incentives that might work. I think the If is too big. I think that, because that is the current status quo, and has been for 15 years (as long a reasonable time frame that can be considered IMO).

We need to look at what works and work with that. James is right, regional events work in Texas and have for some time. Setting up three or more regional series that are intertwined builds on something we know works and enhances it. It takes the regional series and makes a beautiful final event. Tying the series to it as qualifiers increases incentives to participate at the lower level events. This is exactly what Chris and John did and it worked. This simply expands the concept.

Trying for something which goes against what players are willing to participate in won't work. This issue comes up here in the organization as a whole. People keep talking about players as if they are altruistic. Players do what they want and always will.

BTW - Even Texas 10 might have had long term issues. It's growth rate - i.e. participation was based on new players coming into the sport vs. established players per say - was much higher than the sport's growth rate in general. There was no way to maintain that long-term. Chris would have had to tap into the established market eventually (by that I mean come to rely on, since we know that he did have a good section of established players) and the question arises, was that possible?. Maybe, maybe not. Combine that with the cost of gas etc. and Chris might have run into a long term wall.

Most players will be willing to travel big a few times a year, most typically for "special" events or if there is no real alternative at home. When I travel again, I'll go for special courses or special events like Waterloo. But I'm not traveling to Mr. Jim's. I'm sure it's a great event but it's just not enough to get me to Dallas.

A few notes.

I like the idea of building on the local C-Tier series and tying then together with a large scale final in a popular venue. The final would have to be somewhere central until the idea caught on, then could move through the regions after it was established.

I would like to see the traditional large B-Tiers and A-Tiers coordinated as a group and establish some Texas wide corporate sponsorship. If they were all connected in a single package, there might be enough participants to gain the interest of some Texas based companies.

Y'all need to let it go, imo. The belief that we can make, or even encourage people to travel by protecting existing A and B tier events has been a losing idea for years now. Perpetuating it just digs the hole deeper.

People want more local events. Very few people travel to events anymore. Even our "big" events in Texas, whichever one they are, I can't sem to name them, probably draw a large majority from a 60 mile radius.

I've already layed out an idea that serves both camps. I'd also argue that my idea is more likely to produce more large events with more travellers than the present system. Restrict the large events to dual course setups on our best courses. Players will have less complex schedules and can focus on the monthly big event.

Imagine the possibility of a monthly big event scheduled on our best courses (two at each tourney), with all other weeks free to conduct local tournaments. Does this schedule sound more appealing than what we will have in 2008?

January - Victoria (add another temp 18) or Corpus (Ingleside and Guth)
February - Cedar Hill or Z Boaz (and another 18 holer)
March - Houston
April - RR and Wilco, or Temple
May - Waco
June - San Antonio
July - Victoria (add another temp 18) or Corpus (Ingleside and Guth)
August - Lubbock or Amarillo
September - Houston
October - Circle R
November - Two good courses in the DFW area
December - Tyler

In this I agree with James.

I'm pretty confident that part of the travel that used to happen was due to the lack of local events. I know that prior to Texas States, people in Houston traveled because there weren't any major events in Houston.

Now, events are common place. Even when you lose an event, it's not long before something else local pops up. In a state this size, it's going to take a special tournament to get people to travel. The longest I've gone is 1.5 hours out of Houston and that was just to see the Snow Farm. The only long distance events I will travel for going out will be very special events that have some real meaning or possibly an NT if one happens somewhere besides Houston. I'm not telling you that I'm the norm, but I am seeing a trend.

If you're going to have a structure for the state, you have to start where you can accomplish something. It seems a lot of work, with a lot of battles, to try and link the B-tiers and A-tiers, and if you do it and it doesn't pay off, where does that leave you?

In this I agree with James.

I'm pretty confident that part of the travel that used to happen was due to the lack of local events. I know that prior to Texas States, people in Houston traveled because there weren't any major events in Houston.

Now, events are common place. Even when you lose an event, it's not long before something else local pops up. In a state this size, it's going to take a special tournament to get people to travel. The longest I've gone is 1.5 hours out of Houston and that was just to see the Snow Farm. The only long distance events I will travel for going out will be very special events that have some real meaning or possibly an NT if one happens somewhere besides Houston. I'm not telling you that I'm the norm, but I am seeing a trend.

If you're going to have a structure for the state, you have to start where you can accomplish something. It seems a lot of work, with a lot of battles, to try and link the B-tiers and A-tiers, and if you do it and it doesn't pay off, where does that leave you?



I agree with James too except there should only be one month that Houston is used since we lack the quality of courses that other areas do.

You need to reconsider that anti-Houston rhetoric. Fact is, we have very few places in Texas that meet the two good course criteria. Houston is hardly alone in that regard. This year, I expect the golf course to yield two quality courses and Bass could easily be setup for two quality courses. It just takes some added OB and a diabolical mind. Y'all can accomplish that.

I agree with James too except there should only be one month that Houston is used since we lack the quality of courses that other areas do.



But we sure do have a loud mouth do-little to help the situation. :mad:

how would we define "good course"? By its SSA? It's amenities (restrooms, etc)? It's local club support? it's distance from Houston (/snicker/)? I think there is some merit to trying to make the big events at the "better" courses, since that will draw more pros and ultimately better competition in all divisions...

I agree with James too except there should only be one month that Houston is used since we lack the quality of courses that other areas do.



But we sure do have a loud mouth do-little to help the situation. :mad:




No you don't! I am not an HFDS member or Houston DGer. Unfortunately there aren't to many people in Houston that think we are in need of better courses and are ok with the quality of the ones we have. I really don't see Houston hosting two events a year that utilize 36 different holes since bass is currently the only place where that is currently possible. With the addition of QV maybe Houston van host two events on quality courses but at this time I feel there are other areas that could do better.

What you are overlooking is that there are more than one set of golfers in Texas and you do not have to take from one to provide for the other.

As it stands, there is plenty of local one and two day C-Tier sized events in most areas, as well as plenty of larger B-Tiers on multiple courses. Players that are willing to travel have the opportunity, and those that like to sleep in their own beds have that option as well.

The Pros are getting the worst of it because there is little incentive for the best in the state to show up at the same event and go at it head to head. There are more than enough ams to go around in most places and they don't worry too much about going against the best ams every week.

The only thing I would want to do is connect them and try to bring all of the best players to the same courses once a year. TX States doesn't draw everyone down, maybe something they all contributed to would. I don't know if that is the way to go, but it gets suggested every year so some players think it's a good idea.

I just know that I don't want to administer it.

I agree with James too except there should only be one month that Houston is used since we lack the quality of courses that other areas do.



But we sure do have a loud mouth do-little to help the situation. :mad:




No you don't! I am not an HFDS member or Houston DGer. Unfortunately there aren't to many people in Houston that think we are in need of better courses and are ok with the quality of the ones we have. I really don't see Houston hosting two events a year that utilize 36 different holes since bass is currently the only place where that is currently possible. With the addition of QV maybe Houston van host two events on quality courses but at this time I feel there are other areas that could do better.



On this I have to side with Tony, Matt. For someone who claims to have nothing to do with Houston DG, and who is not an HFDS member, you spend hours bashing the local scene. I don't recall you donating your expertise in the same fashion to every other venue/city in the State or Country.

If you live near here and play here (I do believe I've seen you out) and are going to constantly slam the local courses, then step up and do something. Heck, I'll help. As I seem to recall, there are some great thoughts about moving the Willy from a par 50 something to a par 60 something. I'll get my shovel and chainsaw out there any time you're ready to go. More so, I'll support whatever plan you have to modify that course. I think you know enough about what it takes to make a good course to do so.

You need to reconsider that anti-Houston rhetoric. Fact is, we have very few places in Texas that meet the two good course criteria. Houston is hardly alone in that regard. This year, I expect the golf course to yield two quality courses and Bass could easily be setup for two quality courses. It just takes some added OB and a diabolical mind. Y'all can accomplish that.



I think I also support James' vision of big events. He's correct, our biggest events should be at our best locations. By moving your b-tiers and a-tiers to those best courses you provide an incentive to travel. Why travel to a bad venue? If each of our biggest events represents a great play, great amenities, and is well run, it's going to make travel much more palatable. I may have to agree, James for Pres!

I agree with James too except there should only be one month that Houston is used since we lack the quality of courses that other areas do.



But we sure do have a loud mouth do-little to help the situation. :mad:




No you don't! I am not an HFDS member or Houston DGer. Unfortunately there aren't to many people in Houston that think we are in need of better courses and are ok with the quality of the ones we have. I really don't see Houston hosting two events a year that utilize 36 different holes since bass is currently the only place where that is currently possible. With the addition of QV maybe Houston van host two events on quality courses but at this time I feel there are other areas that could do better.



You are absolutely right (hence my use of "do-little"). You don't do anything but [censored] and moan about the lack of quality of Houston courses. You've got game and you're a good kid, but you need to realize it ain't all about you.

Your perception and reality are two very separate things. Quality courses need two things -- land and municipal support. Both are sorely lacking in the Houston area. DGers can push as hard as they can (and they have), but if the people with the authority keep saying no, you can't just build a course anyway.

That's why it's important to support States at QVCC this year. We have a chance to get some serious land and show that DG is a viable option so that even if Missouri City buys the property, DG has a chance to remain in that transition. Is the situation perfect? No, but it's the best break we've had in quite awhile.

You need three things.
1. land
2. municipal support
3. people willing to bust thier collective butts to get it done.