Located here (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/2007tourinfo.php)

The requirement is that everyone adhere to the entry fee guidelines, but I would argue that an entry fee below $20 for any division is too low for any sanctioned event. That puts the PDGA event at the same level or below local leagues or minis. Plus it severly restricts what the TD is able to add to the event without losing money. I understand the entry fees listed are prior to fees and donations, but we do need something to help distinguish us from a local league or mini.

A couple of things I find very important in that and the 2007 Sanctioning agreement....

The standards now specify that drinking or doing any type of illegal activity in a park where it is illegal is considered unprofessional conduct.

Also, in the sanctioning agreement, the TD must agree to uphold the 40% payout standard, which was an issue at some tournaments this year.

I tend to agree with Gary that perhaps $15 and $10 entry fees are too low, but I'm glad that events that charge above maximum event entry fees are now expected to contact the PDGA Tour Manager and provide evidence of extra benefits.

I'd be a rich man I had a dollar for every tournament I've wanted to attend, but the tournament organizers just seemingly decided to charge whatever high entry fee they felt like. It's almost like they had no clue that recommendations on entry fees for PDGA tournaments existed, even though the guidelines have been in the PDGA Tour Standards document for many years now. Or these TDs seemingly chose to ignore them. At least now there is an expection to contact the PDGA Tour Manager and provide evidence of extra benefits; I hope there is some repercussion for those that do not.

It will be the same repercussions for TDs that do not turn their stuff in on time.

It looks like you have not played a PDGA event since 2004.

It looks like you have not played a PDGA event since 2004.



Yea, and that can be almost entirely attributed to Pro Open entry fees for nearly every PDGA tournament in the region being $50 or more! Even 'C' tier events that are supposed to charge around $40 are almost always higher.

It will be the same repercussions for TDs that do not turn their stuff in on time.

Etymologically, if something makes no noise and no one notices it when it does not happen, can it be considered a repercussion? :D

the market should dictate fees, not the government.

I think you get a lot for the money in our area Jeff.
What events do you think overcharge?
Between AM and PRO days the Jam paid out over $7000.00 that weekend.
For open pro $55
everyone else $35

I know it's like a plug, but other area events are just as good.

Bob, I don't think it's appropriate to call out all the events over the years that have charged more than the PDGA recommended fees, but it's a significant number. In a few cases, I have e-mailed the tournament director beforehand to let them know about it, and on occasion when this was done well in advance, the TD decided to adjust the entry fees and the flyer in accordance with PDGA guidelines.

This may be off-topic, and I'm probably in the minority on this, but fundamentally I don't believe in high entry fees to begin with. I was never crazy about it when I was an intermediate or advanced amateur golfer, even when I was on the upper end of those divisions and was usually assured that I would take home merchandise with value as great or greater than the entry fee. And I certainly don't like it any better in the Open division where I am almost statistically guaranteed to donate every tournament.

Again, I'm probably in the minority on this, but I just don't have an interest in gambling high entry fees on disc golf, which is why I stick to events like BYOP Doubles, Ice Bowls, random-draw doubles, tag rounds, and casual rounds. And whenever I am interested in bigger PDGA-sanctioned events, many times the TDs are going beyond recommended entry fees and I choose not to participate.

Understood.

I've often wanted to guarantee entry fee back to the last place pro player. (Ams get a player pack)
You have to charge em up front to reserve a spot or they may not show if the weather's bad or they were up drinkin.

It would take a lot of added cash.

I'm more in favor of medium entry fees with with deeper payouts. Enough of an entry fee that you think of it as more and bigger than a mini.

Bob, I don't think it's appropriate to call out all the events over the years that have charged more than the PDGA recommended fees, but it's a significant number. In a few cases, I have e-mailed the tournament director beforehand to let them know about it, and on occasion when this was done well in advance, the TD decided to adjust the entry fees and the flyer in accordance with PDGA guidelines.

This may be off-topic, and I'm probably in the minority on this, but fundamentally I don't believe in high entry fees to begin with. I was never crazy about it when I was an intermediate or advanced amateur golfer, even when I was on the upper end of those divisions and was usually assured that I would take home merchandise with value as great or greater than the entry fee. And I certainly don't like it any better in the Open division where I am almost statistically guaranteed to donate every tournament.

Again, I'm probably in the minority on this, but I just don't have an interest in gambling high entry fees on disc golf, which is why I stick to events like BYOP Doubles, Ice Bowls, random-draw doubles, tag rounds, and casual rounds. And whenever I am interested in bigger PDGA-sanctioned events, many times the TDs are going beyond recommended entry fees and I choose not to participate.

Can you define what you think of as medium entry fees and high entry fees? I'm not baiting you or anything. I, too, prefer tournaments with moderate entry fees, although value matters more to me. I'm just curious what is high in Texas and what is medium and what is your willingness-to-pay.

I agree PDGA events should cost more than local mini events.
Look at all you get!...
Ok a little sarcasm. But there are advantages to sanctioned events. Insurance alone is enough for me.

Standardised entry is fine for the events the PDGA actually run. Well I mean the NT events. These are the events that are drawing across the globe for the top players and they should be able expect a certain amount of consistancy.

More local events though, I think fees should be set by the market.

Costs in this country are not standard for anything else.
NJ gas prices are under $2 a gallon.

Medium is about the cost of a tank of gas and lunch for the day.

I guess that value also plays a big part.

For a minimum PDGA Sanctioned one day event I wouldn't want to pay more $40 as MM1. For a full on two day event with all the trimmings maybe as high as $75.

A minimum PDGA sanctioned event still has a lot more in basic amenities than a mini. I expect a player's meeting, printed ground rules, a map, food nearby or on the course, public restroom facilities, score cards, and current merch as prizes.

For a full on event I expect other things scheduled around the event and added value to the player's pack or payout.
I expect the staff (paid and volunteer) to be more abundant and better trained. I expect to show up and have no confusion as to where I am supposed to be and when I need to be there.

I have been trained to expect Int to pay about the same as myseld, Recs to be less while Advanced and Pro pay more.

I've been questioning those concepts and think I am leaning more toward full price/trophy only options. This puts the decision in the hands of each player as to whether they want to play for prizes or competition.

In the case of trophy only, I think they should be paying the price of premium disc + fees and getting a premium disc back when they sign up. That's around $20 for trophy Only in Rec. If you use graduated pricing, the full price Recs would come in around $30. Ints at $25 and $40, Adv at $30 and $50, MPM/FPO and $30 & $60, MPO at $35 and $70.

That's just top of the head ramblings, I haven't really analyzed these numbers yet.

I see that I was incorrect in my first read through the tour standards and only the D-Tiers are required to not exceed the maximum entry fees listed.

I would like to get opinions of what is considered baseline requirements to meet the recommended price, and what would be considered value added items that make your event worth more than the recommended price.

Ane then get reactions from the players as to whether those additional items are really worth the extra cost.

One price for all amateur divisions and one price for all pros makes a lot of sense, two prices each if you are doing a trophy-only option. It works better for whoever is taking the money; it works better for whoever is calculating payouts; it even works better for the players. It is much easier to move up with the same entry fee than it is to pay $10 more and get your asterisk kicked.

For the doubles tournaments I do in Michigan this year it is going to be one price for every single division. But I'm going to pay out all divisions in funny money too. Divisions will be about skill level, not paper or plastic preferences. Pure R-tier.

As a TD, I was frustrated with the required cap on entry fees last year because I felt they were not laid out in advance well and it is very hard to give out decent AM prizes when tourney costs are not even covered. The PDGA backed off the requirements last springs and here we go again with a similar discussion.

However, I now have a different take on it. If Am fees are low, AM payouts will be low as well. I don't believe in paying huge amounts of plastic and prizes to AMs anyway so this can be a way of doing that. The main problem is, the difference between the costs for AM-Payouts and the Retail Value of AM-Payouts is where many TDs get the money for added cash for the Pros to reward the best players at the tournaments. The TDs will have to do a better job of hustling up added cash (which is hard and time consuming) for pro purses. However, as many annuals PDGA events mature they should be able to generate sponsorships better and this low entry system could lead to a better definition betwen AMs and PROs when you look at the prizes at the end of a tournament.

I will try my best to follow the recommended entry fees and make up the difference for both AMs and PROs in the Montrose Open this year. The hard part is always when the cost per player in a division is higher than the entry fees due to the player's package and other necessary fees. Last year it cost $33/player to run the Montrose Open before prizes were handed out. I like to reward all players with a killer player's pack and lunch at least one day. I guess I'll try to keep to that philosophy and possibly payout less next year depending on what sponsorships I get.

Anyway, I'm overall for having a lower recommended entry fee but players will need to realize that AM payouts will be lower. TDs need to realize it will be up to them to make up the difference in AM and PRO payouts or make some hard decisions.

It's late and I think I am rambling. Interesting discussion though and I hope to hear morethoughts from other TDs and players.

-MADMAX

Competition Manual 1.3 - Withdraws and Refunds

Competition Manual (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/07CompetitionManual.pdf)

The manual says TD's can be more lenient than these policies, but they have to meet the minimum requirements.

I have no problem refunding a player's entry fee if they notify me in advance. That includes withdrawing the night before or event or even the morning of the event. I realize people get sick and have family and work emergencies. I have no problem giving you your refund or a player's package. If I fill your spot, I will prefer to give you your money, as the player that took your spot will get one of the limited numbers of player's packages.


The guidelines as written say I must send a player's package to someone who withdraws after the 7th day prior to the event. It doesn't say "officially withdraw".

I personally will not send a player's package if a player did not even bother call me to withdraw or at least have a buddy tell me they won't be coming. I am also not about to send a refund either. Do the guidelines as written support this? The problems (extra stress) that a no-show causes are numerous. I don't want to shell out an extra $4.00 in postage to send a player's package to someone who didn't have the decency to notify me.

Again, do the guidelines as written support this?

<font color="red"> 1.3. Withdraws and Refunds
A. A player may official withdraw only by contacting the Tournament Director.
B. Players must email or phone their withdrawals to the Tournament Director only at the contact
information posted.
C. Discussions with persons other than the Tournament Director, including other tournament staff,
shall not be considered official.
<font color="blue"> D. No refunds will be issued after the 7th day prior to the start of the event, but the player shall be
sent a player�s package if one was provided to event competitors.</font>
E. Withdrawals made before the 7th day prior to the start of the event shall receive a 50% refund.
F. Withdrawals made 14 days prior to the start of the event shall be refunded 100 %, less
postage and handling, which shall not exceed 10% of the entry fee.
G. These criteria may be relaxed at the discretion of the Tournament Director. </font>

The way I read Section D is that they do not get a refund if they withdraw within 7 days of the event but if you keep their money, you must send them a player's package. While I agree with what you said about inconveniencing TDs, I guess if TDs keep the $20-$100, a player's pack should be sent. Definetely vague regarding the "Officially withdraw" thing.

-MADMAX

I was talking about this with someone and he thought that if you are running a major or A-tier with pools, you should be liable for a full refund until shortly after you announce what the schedule of courses and divisions are for each pool.

Like, if you can't tell the players in a division what pool they are in and what courses they are playing until the players' meeting on the morning the tournament starts, you're liable for full refunds until about tee off! :o

I think his point was that the PDGA far more needs a standard for the schedule thing than it does for the refund thing.

If only TDs were meaner and wouldn't let people register up to the last minute so they could actually post the pools and layouts a week in advance. Either decision, closing reg and sticking with it so you can post earlier, or letting people register until less than 24 hours from tee off are both sides of the same customer service issue.

As a TD, I was frustrated with the required cap on entry fees last year because I felt they were not laid out in advance well and it is very hard to give out decent AM prizes when tourney costs are not even covered. The PDGA backed off the requirements last springs and here we go again with a similar discussion.



I'll take some heat for that. What happened was that the Competition Committee decided to make the table of recommended fees for PDGA events a "required " table of fees for PDGA events. The problem was, there were wildly differing opinions from region to region, and even city to city exactly what entry fees should be, and it was causing serious problems with sanctioning, so I decided to back off on it. We just didn't have good enough information from around the country to restrict entry fees like that. I'm with Bruce on this, (and I'm sort of paraphrasing Bruce here, so go ahead and slam me if I misrepresent him here) I don't mind paying a higher entry fee if there's good value in it. Is there a good player's package, GREAT courses, player's party, other amenities, etc....yada yada yada.

Chap

if you notify me in advance, i will happily refund your money. it is however, your responsibility to notify me BEFORE the event. end of story.

as to whether pdga events need to cost more to differentiate them from mini's? maybe mini cost to much also. basing our event cost structure on mini's or other non-pdga events doesn't make sense to me. if the players want lower cost events, then that is what we should have. knowing what the players want is imperative, which i why i wonder why we have people who don't play many events or run them making the competition handbook and the tour guidelines.... :confused:

What if amateurs ran the kinds of tournaments amateurs want to play?




What if amateurs ran the kinds of tournaments "Pros" want to play?


Who says they dont in either case?

On Pros and AMs, If a PRO player (one who has previously renewed as a PRO or acctepted cash in a PRO division last year) doesn't take advantage of the amnesty program when they renew, they are considered a PRO player for 2007. They must pay the $75 renewal, correct? Unless they are in the process of petitioning the PDGA to resume their AM status. Even though they play in mostly AM divisions (if their rating allows) the rest of the year, they still need to renew as a PRO, correct?

If they are in the process of petitioning for AM status, why not take advantage of the amnesty ?

The amnesty period ended already. At this point, they need to renew as a pro until a petition for am status has been granted.

Right, if they missed the amnesty deadline.

I'm just trying to clarify all the ins and outs of the new divisional setup. AMs playing PRO, PROs playing AMs, whew! I want to make sure I understand correctly. I know some who will try to abuse the system and take PRO cash but still want to play in AM divisions whenever they feel like it. Can a player accept a cash prize in a PRO GM division, then later that same year, accept a plastic prize in an AM GM division?

Can a player accept a cash prize in a PRO GM division, then later that same year, accept a plastic prize in an AM GM division?




Yes, but unlikely. If you look at the guidelines, a GM Pro has to have a rating under 875 to play GM Am. A GM with that low of a rating is unlikely to cash in GM Pro unless they are the only player in the division. Now, a GM Pro might cash in GM Pro and also win merch in regular Advanced.

Last year, I played in five different divisions including regular Advanced when my rating was under 955 in the first half of the year: www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=4949&amp;year=2006 (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=4949&amp;year=2006) When I played Open, it was with a Trophy Only entry fee.

Yes, but Chuck, you seem like a pretty stand-up guy. It seems to me that you are a good sport (even though we've never been in the same group that I can recall), so you aren't the kind of player I'm referencing. Most of us know someone (or maybe several someones) who is constantly looking for a way to make winning easy. The ultimate "sandbagger" who has no qualms about taking cash one week, then signing up in AM the next.

What is the rating ceiling for AM master?

I don't have mine on me, but I thought it was on the back of the new membership cards.

915 for Am Master
Player Divisions (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/07PlayerDivisionsGridFinal.pdf)

A Pro Master has to have a rating below 915 to play Am Master but can play Advanced if under 955. It's all been available online for more than a year. There's no change for this year:

www.pdga.com/documents/td/07PlayerDivisionsGridFinal.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/07PlayerDivisionsGridFinal.pdf)

There's little unfair about Pros playing in Am divisions at any age because in every Am division, there are Ams that can have higher ratings than the rating ceiling for pros sliding over.

I lost my train of thought on my original question

If a player accepts cash at any event, they must then renew as a PRO, whether they play PRO events or AM events from then on. Is this correct? If they try to renew as an AM (after missing the amnesty deadline and without the correct petitioning paperwork), what happens to their membership renewal request when it gets to PDGA HQ? Will the membership manager get on the phone and ask the member for more $$$?

No one on here has that answer. Call Lorrie or Addie and ask at PDGA HQ. One loophole I could see would be where a player hasn't renewed early in the year and cashed as a nonmember paying the $5 fee. Then, later in the year they try to renew as an Am and we don't automatically see their record of cashing in a sanctioned event but as a nonmember.

I lost my train of thought on my original question

If a player accepts cash at any event, they must then renew as a PRO, whether they play PRO events or AM events from then on. Is this correct? If they try to renew as an AM (after missing the amnesty deadline and without the correct petitioning paperwork), what happens to their membership renewal request when it gets to PDGA HQ? Will the membership manager get on the phone and ask the member for more $$$?



This scenario ONLY applies to Am players that PLAY UP and cash. They are now considered PROS and the TD should notify the PDGA and then it would be dealt with...

IF that players rating is 955 or below they CAN still play AM AND accept prizes(using Pro playing Am rules), BUT will recieve NO points for this.

If that players rating is OVER 955 then they MUST play Pro and CANNOT play Am anymore. This would be a violation of the rules (someone look that up for me) and you would be subject to PDGA ire.

BUT will recieve NO points for this.




They do receive Am points but they are not combined with their Pro points. (See my link upthread for my points in both last year.)

BUT will recieve NO points for this.




They do receive Am points but they are not combined with their Pro points. (See my link upthread for my points in both last year.)



Huh! Didnt know that...the clause only states "Will not receive points" not "will recieve Am points NOT Pro"
:confused:

Consider that several Ams turn Pro after Am Worlds. The online software has to keep track of points earned in Am during the first half of the year and Pro points later in the year. No difference really if a player is bouncing back and forth between Am and Pro during the year earning points in both. That's probably not going to help them get an invite to either Worlds.

IF that players rating is 955 or below they CAN still play AM AND accept prizes


Technicality alert: they have to be rated 954 or below. 955 cant play am. Has to be "under 955".

IF that players rating is 955 or below they CAN still play AM AND accept prizes


Technicality alert: they have to be rated 954 or below. 955 cant play am. Has to be "under 955".



Oh good, I make it by 1 point instead of 2 :p
:D