Are the payout schedules fair? Are they a little to fair? Do they make sense? Should Open payout be shifted more towards the winner?

yes

To answer those questions, you really have to ask yourself 1 fundamental question.....
Do you really want players to move up?
If you say yes, then you need to pay out deeper in open. If you say no, then you need to pay the winner more. Flatter payouts are an effort to encourage people to move up.
If you are a top Intermediate player (and don't know about whether you are ready for adv.), deeper payouts encourage you to move up to advanced. If you are better than half the field, you'll finish in the prizes. The same holds true for adv. to open.

yes

I was going to say no. :D

no

I recently witnessed this example: An open mens player won against 10 or 12 others and the P.D.G.A. payout was $285. A female open master won, defeating 3 others, and the P.D.G.A. set payout was $215. This seems unfair to me. In the same event, the am payouts were very close between spots. Some of the P.D.G.A. set payouts were actually the same at like 4th and 5th place, and again at 8th and 9th. It seems that it takes something away from the effort they put into playing better than the next guy or girl. Paying out deep is a nice thing to do, but should a person be "in the cash" when they finish dead in the middle of the pack?

In theory, flatter payouts (1) encourage more players to move up to open which (2) enlarges the number of open players, and thus the total fees to be divided, so that (3) the winner gets about the same from a large field and flatter payout as he or she would have from a smaller field and steeper payout.

I wonder how it works in practice?

I prefer to see 50% payouts, no matter what your division the competition is tough and I feel the top 1/2 should be rewarded for their play. No problem if bottom cash gets less than their entry fee they finished in the top 1/2 they should be able to say "I cashed" (or I merched).

I've always been an advocate of deep payouts, which could be interpreted as me wanting to cash simply b/c I'm a last cashing type of pro, especially in North Carolina where cashing at all is an honor.

But in reality, deeper payouts keep people playing. Events like the worlds, USDGC and the Players Cup are great - they give the games true elite a chance to make some serious money and give guys like me (I'm 977) a chance to compete with these guys and then hopefully have the distinction of saying "I cashed at fill in the blank."

However, at smaller tournaments, such as B Tiers and lower, and even some smaller A Tiers I would argue, most players competing are not doing this for a living, except for possibly a stop in between two NT's or to see a friend or stay at home for a week, etc.

It is the smaller tournaments that players like myself play just hoping to finish in the money that keeps the bigger events on cruise control. Keeping deeper payouts keeps players with similar skill levels of mine playing and thus increases the chances I will go to an NT or a Major to help contribute to the purse and the paycheck of the winners.

I do feel strongly, however, that bigger tournaments purses are way to lopsided up top. I'll never forget Josh Anthon telling me at USDGC this year that hole 17 cost him 6,000 dollars the last round.

I prefer to see 50% payouts, no matter what your division the competition is tough and I feel the top 1/2 should be rewarded for their play. No problem if bottom cash gets less than their entry fee they finished in the top 1/2 they should be able to say "I cashed" (or I merched).



Ive tried some different payout schedules....
One is a 50% payout table.
The top 25% get 75% of the Payout 50%-75% get entry fee back.

Top players get the same if not more than the PDGA scale and more get "even money"
Ive heard "0" complaints when Ive used this scale.. :D

So in a 100 player field:

1 - 25 get 75% of the payout
26 - 50 get ?
51 - 75 get their money back

Am I reading this right? I like the idea of getting entry fees back to a set of players.

One idea I tossed out there for the MSDGC this year was a $0 entry fee with a $20,000 purse. Jason and Joe (the two other TDs) liked the idea but opted to go for the more traditional entry fee with a $35,000 payout for our 07 rendition.

Either way, we should continue to pay nice and deep (imo) and the elite events should follow the same pay structure. The goal of these top events (imo) is to develop a real class of touring pros and we will need to pay the 20th place pro a living wage in order to keep him touring and not have to get a "real job".

The goal of these top events (imo) is to develop a real class of touring pros and we will need to pay the 20th place pro a living wage in order to keep him touring and not have to get a "real job".




"We" don't need to be falsely propping up touring players. Paying spectators and sponsors with a realistic financial interest should be funding them if it's truly an economy that supports the pros and is not on the backs of other players, TDs and altruistic local sponsors. Adding another level of amateur (Expert) above Advanced would reduce the pro field at higher tier events so that more of the small amounts of added cash we do have would go to support the touring pros by paying up to half of a smaller field like ball golf, and build from there.

So in a 100 player field:

1 - 25 get 75% of the payout
26 - 50 get ?
51 - 75 get their money back

Am I reading this right? I like the idea of getting entry fees back to a set of players.

One idea I tossed out there for the MSDGC this year was a $0 entry fee with a $20,000 purse. Jason and Joe (the two other TDs) liked the idea but opted to go for the more traditional entry fee with a $35,000 payout for our 07 rendition.

Either way, we should continue to pay nice and deep (imo) and the elite events should follow the same pay structure. The goal of these top events (imo) is to develop a real class of touring pros and we will need to pay the 20th place pro a living wage in order to keep him touring and not have to get a "real job".



:confused:

100 person field each paying $100

1st - 25th are paid 75% of the total purse - $7500 split on "normal" scale between top 25

26th - 50th get Entry Fee back.. $2500

Of course this scale is the BARE MINIMUM because of added cash, and a "Zillion" other factors....But this is a good base that Ive used AND had success with. At worst you are upsetting 8% of the field because places 26 - 33 would get less than "scale", though now I guess that would increase to 15% because of the new "40%" standard.

Overall MORE people (1/2 the field) get at least entry fee back.
The "Top" players are happy because it really doesnt affect the payouts in the upper 20% or so..........

:D

How do player packs factor into this, or is it only for Pro payouts ?

How do player packs factor into this, or is it only for Pro payouts ?



This "Basic" model fits Pros best as written...
BUT It could be transferred to AMs....this is one of the "Zillion" things I was refering to...

With AMS...AFTER players PAckages, etc there is still a BASE $ amount left per player. I guess THIS amount would be considered your "entry fee"??
Now a GOOD TD doesnt SUCK UP all the Retail/Wholesale value earned in plastic sales/payout...plus sponsorships, fundraisers etc.....
Im sure a HAPPY medium can be found... :)

I have NO ISSUES at my events.... ;)
:D

I have tried to follow the P.D.G.A. payout and give a bonus of cash to the guys in the final 9. I feel like there should be a real separation in cash between trophy places and the rest of the field. Unfortunatrly, the P.DG.A. does not report this cash for smaller events and people don't see how much cash is really paid out. I also feel like 1st should mean something(cashwise). I have also taken that cash and divided it equally among the divisions and it just seemed to spread so thin as to be pointless. I am a below average open player, but I still do not feel I should be rewarded for mediocre play.

Unfortunately, the P.D.G.A. does not report this cash for smaller events and people don't see how much cash is really paid out.



The PDGA does not prevent these amounts from being added to the prizes reported for each player. They can and should be added in the TD report including skins, for example.

Now a GOOD TD doesnt SUCK UP all the Retail/Wholesale value earned in plastic sales/payout...plus sponsorships, fundraisers etc....

I agree with this whole heartedly! How does the P.D.G.A. deal with T.D.'s who payout week?If a T.D. doesn't even meet the minimum payout schedule, what is done?

I am a little suprised at the number of people in favor of such a deep payout. I will agree that growth of the sport is an important factor. I am seeing that a T.D. can and should probably find ways to reward those who have played at a higher level at an event. Paying the top 3 finishing players a higher % would be the easy fix I would think. I am fairly new at this, and I am very happy to get feedback from those with such a wealth of experience.

The goal of these top events (imo) is to develop a real class of touring pros and we will need to pay the 20th place pro a living wage in order to keep him touring and not have to get a "real job".




"We" don't need to be falsely propping up touring players. Paying spectators and sponsors with a realistic financial interest should be funding them if it's truly an economy that supports the pros and is not on the backs of other players, TDs and altruistic local sponsors.



Chuck, I could not agree more. My point was that I think the PDGA payout tables are good and they should not be steeper - even at the big events (imo).

Would you guys prefer to see the P.D.G.A. payouts followed with all the added cash just thrown into all the divisions, or followed with added cash in all divisions and some added cash thrown separately at the top three in divisions large enough to justify the bonus cash?

Now a GOOD TD doesnt SUCK UP all the Retail/Wholesale value earned in plastic sales/payout...plus sponsorships, fundraisers etc....

I agree with this whole heartedly! How does the P.D.G.A. deal with T.D.'s who payout week?If a T.D. doesn't even meet the minimum payout schedule, what is done?

It is very, very hard to pay out less than PDGA minimums. TDs who only pay out PDGA minimums usually run their tournaments into the ground. There are too many good tournaments to get away with that crap for very long. So it is not something the PDGA often needs to address.

I know of one tournament this year that was run by a rookie TD who knew basically nothing about disc golf. I think he is a parks and rec manager for a municipality. He did no payouts for the amateurs, just player packs and trophies, and it amounted to something like a 50% payout. The PDGA told him not to do that next time.

So I guess if you can convincingly pretend that you are stupid, the answer to the question would be, "Nothing."

Now a GOOD TD doesnt SUCK UP all the Retail/Wholesale value earned in plastic sales/payout...plus sponsorships, fundraisers etc....

I agree with this whole heartedly!



What I try to do is split the Retail/Wholesale value difference 50/50 between the divisions. If it's a donated item, the AMs get it for 50% of it's retail value .... adding that cash to the pro purse. AMs are still getting prizes below retail, and pros are getting added cash ...... everyone wins!

It is very, very hard to pay out less than PDGA minimums. TDs wh only pay out PDGA minimums usually run their tournaments into the ground. There are too many good tournaments to get away with that crap for very long. So it is not something the PDGAo often needs to address

I know of an am event in my area,that could be one of the oldest events around, but this event has not paid anything but trophies to the top three. When I played the event 3-4 years ago as an am I spent $ on a hotel, entry, supported local restaurants, spent many hours preparing mentally and physically and found myself in 1st place with a few holes to go only to hear that 1st would receive a trophy and an "orc". Second place got a trophy and an "orc". 12th got a "DX Shark". This year my homie took 4th, over about 25 or 30 others, and did not even get a disc. We will see if this changes or not very soon since this event happens in the "WINTERTIME".

Is there a player's pack or charity involved ?

Either could consume the entry fees prior to calculating payout.

Bummer Dude! At the 2006 Chippewa Valley Disc Golf Challenge, both the 1st place Advanced & 1st place Intermediate champions won a stack of plastic, a portable Titan, plus a custom Discraft trophy disc .... on top of the 2 discs they received in their players package. And the Pro payouts still had over $2000 added.

The TD for the Wintertime Open has said he will continue this payout schedule in the future. All Amateur players pay the same entry fee and receive a player's pack which includes a ticket to a raffle. The rest of the Am prize money (after deducting players' packs, trophies and expenses) is given away in the raffle. The only way to get a raffle ticket is in the player's pack.

While I may not completely agree with this type of payout, I can see the reasoning behind it. It is to make the event a true "Amatuer" event where players compete for titles, trophies, and points not tons of plastic. Top Advanced players will not receive big prizes unless they hold a winning raffle ticket.

If Am players don't agree with the payout structure, they should not play this event. It is not a secret that this is the payout structure for this event.

Please be advised that you won't get tons of plastic playing in the Wintertime Open, but you can earn a title and you will get PDGA points for playing in a large B tier. So Cal members also get a lot of So Cal Series points for playing. If you want to win the other players entry fees, play the Pro weekend of the Wintertime Open.

Nobody tell the California state lottery commission. They hate competition. :D

Seriously, what's the point of running a tournament that way? If the gambling is totally unrelated to skill at disc golf, why include the gambling at all? Or, for that matter, if the players enjoy the gambling, why not skip the disc golf? And bring in roulette tables too while your at it.

I was fortunate enough to be working in Los Angeles in 1989, and I got to play in the 11th Wintertime Open. I was still an AM player. I don't remember what the payout format was, and I didn't even care. I just remember being excited to participate in one of the best events of the year and getting to see the top players of the time in action. Not to mention playing one of the oldest courses in the nation. If more of the AM players had this type of outlook on competition, instead of "How much can I get this weekend?", our divisional system would be much better.

I think most amateurs are more concerned about "what do I get for my money" than jsut "what do I get". I have no problem with payouts being mostly in the player packs or whatever way the TD would like to do it. There is only one caveat, If a tournament is not going to follow the PDGA guidelines, they should advertise what they intend to do. The PDGA guidelines should be the expectd norm, anything else would be a surprise.

I think the players that will support any event that returns value for the investment whether it be in stacks of plastic or tons of amentities. They are not going to support high prices for no-frills tournaments.

Mel is also leaving out the best part of the Wintertime format: entry fees dropped to $25 when he went to the payout system!

I think it's awesome.

And that first year it wan't "just an Orc". Orcs were brand new and, I believe, unavailable right then. So the top finishers all got the same thing: one pre-release candy Orc. The top three got trophies, too. The next tier got a DX disc. And everyone got 3 rounds of disc golf at Oak Grove, a player pack, and lunch on Saturday for only $25 a piece.

I think it's a great option for a format. And a lot of others must think so too as it still sells out after the payout format change.

That sounds like a good value.

Hey Suzette! Thanks again for those Skeeters! I can see how the raffle format works out, and I think it's actually great for amateur and recreational events that are aimed to attract new players to tournament play without being overly focused on competition. Wal*Mart puts on a couple of charity events here in Menomonie that are raffle based. One division, and the top 3 scores win a sprinkler or a crock pot or something ... then the raffle begins. Last place could go home with big screen TV or an air conditioner. But then again it's a non-sanctioned charity event for the Children's Miracle Network. However, for a sanctioned competitive PDGA event, I would not think that format would be appropriate.

If you get tired of all that "fun in the sun" disc golf in Southern California ( yeah right! ) .... I'll be hosting a XC-tier in February ( but the payouts will look like a B-tier ) ..... should be completey frozen around here by then. At least when it's over you get to go back to Cali!

Follow the link below ...

The entry fee is $25.00 for the Wintertime and players get a shirt, disc, mini and other stuff. After players packs, trophies, PDGA fees and expenses, there really isn't that much left over to put into the raffle. It's not like there is a ton of stuff in the raffle, just some more prizes that everyone has a chance to win if they stick around for the awards.

Thanks for the invite Steve, but I think I like Southern California better in February than the Arctic Circle. Even if it does get rainy and cold(50's) here. I'll settle for the hardship of having to mow the lawn year round. ;)

Thanks for the invite Steve, but I think I like Southern California better in February than the Arctic Circle. Even if it does get rainy and cold(50's) here. I'll settle for the hardship of having to mow the lawn year round. ;)



Aww come on Suzette ... don't you miss sub-zero, blustery days?!?! And to think that you use to be a die hard Kaposia Winter Trooper!

The entry fee is $25.00 for the Wintertime and players get a shirt, disc, mini and other stuff. After players packs, trophies, PDGA fees and expenses, there really isn't that much left over to put into the raffle. It's not like there is a ton of stuff in the raffle, just some more prizes that everyone has a chance to win if they stick around for the awards.



Well that sounds fair to me. I wonder what the gripe was all about? It just goes to show that no matter how much effort you put into it, there will still be those who complain.

Keep up the good work down there!

It is true that no matter how hard you try, someone will complain. It's unfortunate, and I certainly don't like being "that guy". When the "orc payout" occured I was not the only one who was unaware of the $12 payout. In fact nearly everyone I talked to was a little shocked. I am not from Socal. When I signed up, I thought I was in an event that was considered elite. I expected an elite event to have an elite payout. Had I known how the event would be, I probably would still have played. I just would not have been so disapointed. Letting people know upfront would save alot of disapointment. Like they say, if you don't like the am games, play open. So I do. And poorly I must admit.