Are Open players more dedicated? Do they practice more? Do they attend more tournaments? Do they have sponsors(remember I said average Open player)?

Do ams play for love of the game? Do they have less time to practice?

Someone please tell me what the difference is. :confused:

No (or not necessarily) to all your questions.

Genetics.......and mental discipline.

Rounds per week ?

Are Open players more dedicated? Do they practice more? Do they attend more tournaments? Do they have sponsors(remember I said average Open player)?

Do ams play for love of the game? Do they have less time to practice?

Someone please tell me what the difference is. :confused:


The difference for me is less time to practice. I have young children at home; so taking care of, and spending time with them takes priority. What little spare time (and spare $$$) I have goes to getting out to events, not practice. My game has plateaued as a result, but I am comfortable with it. My hope is that when my kids are old enough, we can practice and play together. Maybe I'll think about joining the pro ranks then...

nanook

Someone please tell me what the difference is. :confused:


About 70 rating points, so about 7 strokes per round? Just a guess. I'm too lazy to average them out.

The difference is off the tee.

Think about your home course (usually realistic par for hole).

Now think about a great putting round with bad drives.
Now think about a great driving round with butt putting.

9 times out of 10, the better driving round will be a better score.

If you have 15 chances are birdies (not just two's) asuming your other three drives dont put you in a posistion of getting doubles or triples, then more than likey you are still going to shoot at least 5 or 6 under at worst.

This is where I see a big difference in pros and ams, its getting of the tee. So many ams have the shots, have a great putt, a great head game, and all the skill to play pro, they just mess up off the tee about 1/3 of the time. This really hurts thier score.

This is also why a good player can still shoot in the 1000 range while feeling bad about thier play (usually means they didnt putt well).

i think it's the short game for average pros. i see plenty of ams who can drive but few who can putt. super pros on the other hand are genetic freaks with both short game and mad driving skills.

I honestly think putting is what seperates a good pro and a top pro, not a good am and a good pro.

People think I'm crazy, but I'm telling you, watch the top players. They ALWAYS get off the tee.

I think its a combination. Everyone is different. Some people are better putters, some are better drivers. The real difference from an average pro to an average am is consistancy. They may have the same skill level (ie. throw the same distance and accuracy and putt the same) but the pro makes less mistakes. In my case, this consistancy has come with tournament experience. I can't do anything special than I couldn't do 2 years ago, but I'm a way better player because I make fewer mistakes. Maybe its from not putting when someone is in my line or taking a few more seconds to find a route and get comfortable. Either way experience is key.

Like he said, Consistency is the key factor.

That and the fact that there are no standards for what makes one a pro versus an amateur.

Let's say based on those battling for last place cash in Adv versus those battlnig fopr last place cash in Open.

A pro in this position would do better to focus on playing better than those around him because they are not likely to make mistakes inthe final round.

The Adv player in this position would probably do better to concentrate on not making any errors because it is likely that those around him will make mistakes in the final round.

the main difference is that Pros are willing to pay $25 extra for their membership. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

the main difference is that Pros are willing to pay $25 extra for their membership. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Not Larry Leonard. :eek:

Consistency!

I --- a 901 rated player --- have watched the top pros make some of the same misthrows that I do. But I make them 20 times as often.

Inherent athletic ability plays a big role in the consistency.

I think that Rhett and mp3 are the only ones that have it right so far.

mp3-It's ironic that not only are the answers to my questions no, but the opposite is usually true in each case.

Disc golf is the only (individual?) sport that I can think of where the ams practice and play MORE than the open players.

Until am payouts are considerably flattened I don't see ANY difference between Open and Am players. We pay entry fees and play for each others money with the top40% being payed out. In the age of eBay and PayPal, plastic is the same as money.

The average Open player (say under 1000 rating) and most PDGA "Ams" are the same, with some playing for each other's money for cash or merch prizes. That's partly why the PDGA amnesty program allowed Open players to reclassify as Ams. It's true the average Open player, especially those who only play locally, may not be getting as much of the additional benefits our top Open pros receive to justify the higher dues for all pros.

That's also one reason Brakel and I have been lobbying for the Expert division above Advanced to recognize this lack of difference between players at this skill level who play for each other's entry fees and are neither traditional Pros nor Ams. Should the Expert option be added, players could be Ams or Pros under PDGA definitions and decide which classification they prefer in terms of dues.

once again i agree with MTL...Twice in a week!!! Getting off the tee is the biggest part of the game...after that seperation, there is finishing the hole; and that seperates the elite from the talented....I also believe that Ams(lifers), although competitive, may have a different attitude towards competition. I may be enough to hand with friends and fellow golfers and just play...Where as personally, the friZZaks find it difficult to play against eachother w/out putting something on the line. Maybe the difference is a fiercer sense of gameplay...a greater desire to win...Also, this may be different, but i know that I and all the ZZ and many of the pros that we have met were involved in competitive sports since young children...who knows...
Overall, its a loaded question whorely....
good to speak(type) with u again...Will u be at the VTI this year?

Thanks for the reply.

[thread drift]Team Blue Ridge will be representing as best as we can. We may have our best team ever--even though I might not be able to play due to a broken hand. If I can play, I'm looking forward to playing against yall in the playoffs. PS if yall are ever passing thru--you're always welcome at Timber Ridge

A preacher ate it.
see you at the VTI

Disc golf is the only (individual?) sport that I can think of where the ams practice and play MORE than the open players.


I disagree with that statement.

The average pro actually practices some, whereas the average am only plays rounds. There is a big difference.

The top pros seem to practice more than they play. (That's why I say the "average pro" practices some.) They practice throws. They work on shots they need to improve. They practice putting for hours. Then they go to the course and play a round or two.

Ams that practice might go to a field once in a while and throw as far as they can to work on distance. Then they might putt for 15 minutes or an hour once in a while. But the ams hit the course and play rounds, which isn't the same as practicing shots away from the course at all.

Ams that practice like pros, IMHO, are the ones that successfully transition to pro.

I think Rhett is correct here, and it works two ways. Players who have the self-discipline to spend time practicing are going to learn whatever they are practicing, and that will help with whatever they are practicing. Like Rhett, I'm calling practice what you do when you are not playing rounds.

But also, players who have the self-discipline to practice also have the self-discipline not to stay up all night playing poker when they have an 8:00 a.m. tee time. They have the self-discipline to limit their recreational chemicals to moderate amounts of mild stuff, Monday through Thursday. This kind of self-discipline flows into everything they do. So i kind of also agree with whoever said mental discipline.

I play disc golf for fun. There is not much fun in all that self-discipline. That's more about maintaining a balance between satisfaction and never being satisfied. That's why I will always be an amateur.

That, plus i suck at this game. :D

am i to assume a division from 955 to infinite? if not, why not? and vice versa like. thanks.

Expert would potentially run from maybe 950-955 to 985-990, to be determined. It wouldn't be to infinity so our ratings groups remain in the 35-50 point ranges. That's not to say in the long run there couldn't be another merch group above that when there's enough money in the pro ranks to make a living and you have to qualify to become one like the PGA regardless of rating.

Since our merch players aren't really conventional Ams, I'd prefer getting away from that outdated naming convention and switch to something neutral for our merch divisions like Gold, Blue, White, Red, Green, etc. Those who enter those divisions and consistently pay and play for trophies only would then become our True Ams.

Go for it chuck. There's only 50 divisions to choose from already. Who cares if there's another division. No one should have to feel the pain of losing. A division for everyone no matter how bad they suck. Keep heavily rewarding them too because they deserve it.

Yaaay! Everyone wins! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

At least if everyone wins, everyone is playing.... :cool:

You are apparently upset not with the PDGA but with people in general. Too bad they don't live up to your high standards. We do what we can to make PDGA competition fair and also enjoyable for our members, especially for the majority who are not cutthroat competitors, don't expect to make a living at it, but still like to place a little on the line with their peers in age, gender and/or skill. You and James are free to create your spartan organization with few divisions with all of those ideal humans out there. Good luck.

At least if everyone wins, everyone is playing.... :cool:

\
That's right. Quantity over quality... when it comes to competitors AND tournaments.

At least if everyone wins, everyone is playing.... :cool:

\
That's right. Quantity over quality... when it comes to competitors AND tournaments.



The quality of an event has very little to do with how much the winner takes home at the end of the day and a great deal to do with how much fun each competitor has getting to the end of the day.

If the quality of an event is such that it sells out and continues to sell out, there's no economic need for the TD to make it better unless you can increase the capacity. Simple economics. That's not to say TDs don't want to make their events better. But no TD really wants to send players away if they have no way to increase the size of the event or don't want the additional hassle and risk of managing a bigger event, especially if it means more pros who have a negative economic impact on tournament finances. More expected, more effort required, more complaints, less thanks, less net income. Any TD disagree? And yet, I'm TD for the Pro Worlds. Go figure. We're on track to potentially be the first $100,000 pro payout for a Worlds, but maybe I shouldn't work so hard to pull it off. However, my masochistic tendencies on here and elsewhere in the sport are well known... :eek:

Rhett is right. I am constantly preaching to the AMs around here to stop playing rounds of golf, get 5 of each of their favorite discs and spend their time practicing shots. You can learn a shot in an hour that would take months playing only rounds of golf. I usually just play one round a week. But I practice shots nearly every day. Sometime I only have an hour but that is enough time if you don't play a full round of golf.

If the quality of an event is such that it sells out and continues to sell out, there's no economic need for the TD to make it better unless you can increase the capacity. Simple economics. That's not to say TDs don't want to make their events better. But no TD really wants to send players away if they have no way to increase the size of the event or don't want the additional hassle and risk of managing a bigger event, especially if it means more pros who have a negative economic impact on tournament finances. More expected, more effort required, more complaints, less thanks, less net income. Any TD disagree? And yet, I'm TD for the Pro Worlds. Go figure. We're on track to potentially be the first $100,000 pro payout for a Worlds, but maybe I shouldn't work so hard to pull it off. However, my masochistic tendencies on here and elsewhere in the sport are well known... :eek:



Well I respect and thank you. . . . . hell of a job brother . . . .hell of a job . . . . . :)

If the quality of an event is such that it sells out and continues to sell out, there's no economic need for the TD to make it better unless you can increase the capacity. Simple economics.



You just don't get it CK - he's not talking about qty vs quality of event, but of competition(s) within an event. Quality competition pits all comers against one another (see MSDGC stats, where 144 Open players ratings ranged from ~850 to over 1030) instead of the standard PDGA "quantity" competitions that usually split less than 90 men into at least 1/2 dozen separate competitions. Of course MSDGC has coupled the two, and the fact that the EVENT is of high quality (providing many perks - a nice players pack, great courses, players party, etc) makes the quality of competition (i.e. 2 mens divisions - Open and GM) an easier sell to the lower rated player.

Vince to answer your original question - I think MTL and ZZ have pieces of the differences pegged, but I think another more importanty part is simply self confidence. When you believe in yourself - it's easier to "let yourself" play (as opposed to "instructing yourself how"). But this is as much a similarity as it is a difference between the average pro and average am - both groups are searching themselves for the method that will allow them to perform to their ability. The ones that start to get comfortable and want to test themselves against the best step up and play. This is where ZZ's comments on "competition" ring true - those without the drive to just plain compete - just plain don't - and hang out in quote lower divisions unquote.
If you guys are actually lobbying for another "Expert" Division to further isolate the best players, you are working against a piece of your own admitted goals - the day when the best players can actually make a living....
Having been a PDGA member EVEN LONGER than CK, I can attest to the trends that have occurred over the past 20 years in the PDGA - and the divisional structure, it's "fairness", appropriate"ness", reward structure, etc, has been recognizably challenged since the early 90's. Why do we persist in this segregation?
If you want to compete - compete!!! If you don't - OK play monthlies, or play casually, or play with your kids, there's plenty of ways to enjoy and spread the game of DG without entering competitions. If sponsors attention is what you want - "full fields" with all the best players divided into three groups - is not how to get it.

If sponsors attention is what you want - "full fields" with all the best players divided into three groups - is not how to get it.




If you are referring to Advanced, Open and Master, then adding the Expert division would at least bring most if not all players in the 950-990 range together. You would prefer them all to 'fall on their swords' in Open, but the Expert option is more in line with what I believe players will prefer by playing within their skill range.

Is there a line that forces players to move to Open? If so, is it right to force someone to move to Open? It happens with the better Ams being moved to Advanced, so I could see people being forced to play open.

Currently I think that there is a problem with the broadness of the Advanced field. With a rating of 915 to (I don't know what) you leave a wide skill range. There are players competing in the same division that have ratings that represent about a 7 stroke difference per round. Over a multiple round tournament this makes a large gap.

I understand the argument that Open players bring in outside attention, and I believe that is why there are tournaments that are only open to the Open field. But for the small tournaments on the weekends it is nice to have a chance at winning by playing against those of similar skill.

Personally I like playing tournaments because it takes me to new courses and I play with different people. If I continue to not place, I will not stop playing. If I get good enough to play Open one day, I probably will.

I guess overall I see the benefit of an Expert division, but at the same time I would be afraid of narrowing the gaps too tightly, partially because there will be smaller fields and the payouts will weaken (which a lot of people seem to be concerned about). I also don't know if TD's would want to deal with another field.

I really like the idea of having rating based fields without regard so much to age or gender. If ratings are accurate, shouldn't a 900 rated man shoot the same as a 900 rated woman?

If you are referring to Advanced, Open and Master, then adding the Expert division would at least bring most if not all players in the 950-990 range together. You would prefer them all to 'fall on their swords' in Open, but the Expert option is more in line with what I believe players will prefer by playing within their skill range.



Glad you brought it up Chuck - let's talk about "skill range". Pick virtually any event you want - and in the Open Division, you will find a skill range of between 10-18 strokes PER ROUND from top to bottom. THIS IS A CURRENT, SUSTAINED CONDITION - IDENTIFIABLE BY STATS FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY. It includes a group of players who willingly enter competitive events knowing exactly what their skill level is. Please explain how or why, given this condition, you can advocate divisions with only a 4 stroke per round skill range (that coincidentally falls within the existing open scoring range).

This has nothing to do with ME wanting someone else to "fall on their sword" playing Open. Every time I broach the subject - that is your standard response - some form of degrading put down, insinuating my motivations are for personal benefit. Choose a different approach - PLEASE!!!

Better yet - I asked a pretty direct question, perhaps you could answer it directly.

Step away for a minute from the "serve the membership" line. Giving a child what they want everytime they scream for it is not a very good parenting method. Step up to the "meaningful skill range in competition" line, pick a sample of events from around the country, and use the existing skill range as a guide. Then tell me how smaller skill ranges yield better competition. Because that's what you are advocating.

The PDGA is in effect, the "parent" of the tournament event system. As such, it is inherent upon the organization to provide meaningful structure and guidance in promoting fair and inclusive COMPETITION. Competition does NOT mean splitting up a relatively small group of players into ever smaller groups, so that more people can be declared "winners" and be disproportionately rewarded for their performances (compared to players shooting the same score, on the same course, at the same time).

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe the difference between ams and pros is ams read the topic sentence and talk about it. Pros just talk about their favorite issue on any live thread they find! :D

You use single rounds scores as a justification for your scoring spread. I think many players are perfectly fine playing in one round leagues with a much wider rating range, and that's fine.

However, we know exactly what the the standard deviations for scores are for players at all levels. We've run the models a long time ago and the event data is there now to support it. Typically, no more than 2 or 3 players with a rating under 970 cash in an A-tier or higher IN A YEAR. Most of those events require a 4-round rating average of about 1000 to cash. A player with a stable 970 rating will shoot a single round above 1000 rating about 1 in 7 rounds. Pick a few 970 players that have been around a while and look at their rating stats. Now imagine what they have to do to throw that well for 2 rounds in a row let alone 3 or 4 at an A-tier or higher. No player with a rating under 1025 has won Open Worlds for example.

The lower the rating, the higher their scoring range. So, we set the ranges around 50 for divisions under 900. We've tightened it up to 40 points for Intermediate since the scoring range per player starts shrinking. The ranges we have were not made up but statistically determined to allow a player even with the lowest rating in a range to have a shot at cashing but not neccessarily winning. Also, players at the low end of a range are just as likely to be at the high end of a lower division as their rating stabilizes over the years and be the favorite sometimes.

Craig's right, and I think we all know it deep down.

Except I think he meant "incumbent", not "inherent" upon the organization...

Back on topic, Climo told me two things many years ago that I still repeat: "Practice shots, not holes" and "pros don't bogey".

This has nothing to do with ME wanting someone else to "fall on their sword" playing Open. Every time I broach the subject - that is your standard response - some form of degrading put down, insinuating my motivations are for personal benefit. Choose a different approach - PLEASE!!!



I second that. It's not just CK that plays that card, many posters try that lame assertion when they can't refute what I've said. I love how people think my motivations are for bigger payouts, when I constantly cry for lower entry fees and deeper payouts.

Everyone wants to be a PRO...maybe just to say"hey, buddy, Im a pro" ... or maybe because they are too good for advanced, but hey dont like working hard to cash......thats just it...The pdga wanted to oblige these people once before by creating the pro 2 division....If you wanna be pro, this is the best time to do it....All u have to do is pay to play...I hope in the future it will be a qualification process....take advantage of the times and pay to play up..One day it wont be as easy as that... Just think, u could tell people that you played in tournaments in the same division as KClimo, or bshultz....

when I constantly cry for lower entry fees and deeper payouts.




Cry to the TDs then because it's not the PDGA competition system and policies preventing that. I'm all for it, too. Since the TDs don't make anything on the pros anyway, it would make what added cash they have look that much better as a percentage of the purse with lower entry fees.

I think I missed my chance, but I'll go back for it anyway.

What is a quality competition ?
Chicago beating New Orleans 39-14
or
Indianapolis slugging it out with New England 38-34

You didn't miss your chance :) Scoring spread (and quality of competition) is better measured with more competitors. Football games only have two competitors - not a good comparison. You guys should listen to Daniel, he's right you know.
Back to the original thread (wouldn't want upset Bruce) the only difference between the average open player and average am player is self confidence and a little competitive spirit.

The difference is off the tee.

Think about your home course (usually realistic par for hole).

Now think about a great putting round with bad drives.
Now think about a great driving round with butt putting.

9 times out of 10, the better driving round will be a better score.

If you have 15 chances are birdies (not just two's) asuming your other three drives dont put you in a posistion of getting doubles or triples, then more than likey you are still going to shoot at least 5 or 6 under at worst.

This is where I see a big difference in pros and ams, its getting of the tee. So many ams have the shots, have a great putt, a great head game, and all the skill to play pro, they just mess up off the tee about 1/3 of the time. This really hurts thier score.

This is also why a good player can still shoot in the 1000 range while feeling bad about thier play (usually means they didnt putt well).



Although not the point that this thread was trying to make (money vs. merch, etc.), I do think that Robert has hit it on the head in regards to Pro skill vs. Am skill.

While I think putting is a huge part of the Pro/Am difference, I think getting off the tee is maybe more important.

This winter I hadn't been practicing my putting until just recently. My putting was terrible for November and December but my scores seemed to stay around where they were when I was in peak season. I noticed that I was driving much better and had much more success getting off the tee. I may have missed the putt after that, but I was still right there for the three. This instead of hitting first available and then struggling for a 4.

Of course, now I've been practicing putting every night, but haven't been playing nearly as much as I was in the fall. So my driving is slightly off, but the putting is much better. And my scores have stayed stagnant.

As much as people say practice putting is the key, I think a well-rounded practice routine (including putting obviously) will show more in the score.

IMO, There are 3 differences between the two.
1. Off the tee - mostly accuracy
2. Putting - A lot of the average Pro's I see are able to hit more putts outside 30ft and start to fall off around 40+
(This however gets them out practicing more) Atleast thats what I see.
3. More shots in the bag - An-hyzer, flick, and the roller comming into play. Ofcourse accuracy comes into play aswell.

I do notice most of the average Ams practice putting more than the pros. The Pros are usually out working on different shots on any given hole.

I myself don't practice putt as much as I used to and mainly work on An-hyzer and flick rollers. Yet I am rated 930 - maybe this will give me the boost that I need. :confused: