I saw a discussion relative to this subject on another thread and thought it would make for a good discussion. They were discussing the difference between the top in a division and the bottom of the division, the difference in strokes and how more divisions made it either good or bad.

My questions are:

Would you want to play in a Division you don't have to play your best game and still have a chance to win or cash in even if there are only a handful of players?

- OR -

Would you rather play in a huge division that if you play your best you can cash big?

For me, it really depends. I am happy to play in a big event with tons of players per division and write off the $75-100 entry fee as entertainment should I not cash (let alone win). But I can only afford to do that 1-2 times per year.

If I played regularly (2+ events/mo) in PDGA events, I would want to be in a position where it would be a little more "break even". Travel costs are enough to pony up; entry fees need not break the bank.

Since I am over 40, I have my protected division :D With where I am at ratings-wise (963), I could play my absolute best (1000-ish) and still not ever win in local events if I was in MPO. Most of the time, I would not even break even in winnings if I played my best in MPO.

I would rather play in a big huge division where if I play well I can merch, if I play great the whole time I can win, and if I play fair-to-poor I will not merch.

And I really don't give a crap about "cashing big". A $25 entry with good tournament amenities and 100 players in my division: winning a nice trophy plus maybe a bag or a coupel o' discs for 1st would be fine.

I would rather play for a low entry fee in a division of golfers of my skill level. Where the low entry fee covers tournament amenities such as greens fees, a player's package, CTPs, lunch, etc. Where if I finish in the top of my division, I will win a small amount of money or prizes, and if I play fair-to-poor I will win nothing, except the joy of competing against my fellow golfers and the satisfaction of having received an awesome player's package.

A $25 entry with good tournament amenities can be accomplished. And then maybe golfers like me wouldn't walk away with the feeling that they got ripped off or were a donator.

Your questions are backwards.
The larger the field, the deeper the payout, the more players that have to beat you to keep you from cashing.

For argument, you are a player rated in the upper half of the players in your division.

50% payouts and you play at or just above your rating.

With less than 8 players, 3-4 get paid, and there only needs to be 3-4 players that have a good day to keep you from cashing.

With more than 20 players, more than 10 get paid, and now 10 players have to have a good day.

I would rather play for a low entry fee in a division of golfers of my skill level. Where the low entry fee covers tournament amenities such as greens fees, a player's package, CTPs, lunch, etc. Where if I finish in the top of my division, I will win a small amount of money or prizes, and if I play fair-to-poor I will win nothing, except the joy of competing against my fellow golfers and the satisfaction of having received an awesome player's package.

A $25 entry with good tournament amenities can be accomplished. And then maybe golfers like me wouldn't walk away with the feeling that they got ripped off or were a donator.



I agree. Pay a small amount. Get a player's pack (AMS only), a few CTP opportunities, and rewards for only the top players. I would even say trophy only, certainly no cash for AMS. In addition, I would like to see about $5 of each AM entry (and I play AM) go to the open payout. Since the AMS will get paid out in merchandise, they can still get 100% retail payout after this cash loss and I would think that a TD could still make something off it if that is their goal. I see no reason that the AMS should not support the Pros in this fashion.

I rather play in big divisions so if you do good it shows. If your only playing in a division of 5 people and win by maybe 3 strokes it doesnt look as good as if there is 20 people and you get say the top 5. I don't know if it makes much sense by how I'm wording it but I'm all for the huge divisions like at Bowling Green that is the bomb.

I guess I really just don't care. I play because there's a tournament going on and I want to play. I care much more about ratings and points (so I do want to play well and place well), but I really don't need any more plastic/towels/whatever.

A player's pack with a tourney stamped disc is awesome. I have something that I won't throw but will keep so I remember the tourney.

I played advanced last year in 85% of the sanctioned tourneys I played. Almost all of them had a decent player's pack of at least a disc. I "cashed" in half of them, but that was an afterthought to me. If I played well I was happy. If I placed well, too, I was happy. If I won stuff, alright whatever, more stuff I don't need.

15% of my sanctioned tourneys, I played Open. One of them was an NT. The NT was the most expensive entry fee I paid all year. Did I have any chance or cashing? No. Would I have taken the cash anyway? No. But I got a sweet player's pack with a bunch of goodies, I had a great weekend with some friends, an awesome player's party, I got a chance to watch some of the game's greats, and I got to play on one of my all-time favorite courses in a tournament setting where I got ratings.

I guess I just view tournaments as more of an entertainment factor. If I go see a movie, that's 2 hours. I'll spend $8 on a ticket, and $6 on food. $14 for two hours. If I go to a Broadway show, that's at least $140 for a ticket (just one!), and it lasts 3 hours. If I go to a two-day tournament, on my entry fee I'll spend anywhere from $40 to $125. But I get multiple days and nights doing something I love with people I enjoy being with. Seems like a win to me.

I was in the same happy boat as you five years ago as an Advanced disc golfer.

Now imagine paying that "most expensive entry fee you paid all year" at every single tournament, with no chance of cashing.

It will quickly stop seeming like a win to you.

Add to it that many of the tournaments offer player's packs to the Ams and not the Pros, and your feeling of value decreases that much more. After a bit, you wonder if getting work done around the house or taking the family somewhere doesn't make more sense.

I think I feel exactly the way you do. Its entertainment.....win or lose. My motivations are not tied into how much plastic I think I can win.

I am running a tournament this summer that is more 'True Am' style. $27 entry for all Am's. One tourney stamp disc, another disc of your choice, a T-shirt, a towel or mini, CTP prizes (or everything rolled into a Ring of Fire at the end...havent decided), and trophies awarded to the top 3 places. Pro's play for entries, plus get a T-shirt. I am trying to get enough sponsorship to pay for at least one lunch for everyone.

I have thought about taking away the second disc for the Am's, and roll that into 2 free meals for everyone. Of course...the Am's pay for the Pro's meals this way (a kin to boosting the Pro payout with Am entries) and I'm not sure I like that. However its ends up....I want to see how this format works for Am's in this part of the country. Most all players in this region have only been exposed to performance based Am divisions....so, we will see how my tournament is recieved......

After a bit, you wonder if getting work done around the house or taking the family somewhere doesn't make more sense.



Or you restrict your play to BYOP Doubles, One Disc Ace Races, Ice Bowls, random-draw doubles, tag rounds, and casual rounds and swear off PDGA-sanctioned tournaments altogether. :(

I was in the same happy boat as you five years ago as an Advanced disc golfer.

Now imagine paying that "most expensive entry fee you paid all year" at every single tournament, with no chance of cashing.

It will quickly stop seeming like a win to you.



Not trying to argue, just clarifying.

"The most expensive entry fee I paid all year" was far more than most Open entry fees in the area. That event was the Skylands NT and I paid $125. Next in line was the MSDGC for which I paid $100. After that were a few A-tiers which, had I played Open, I would have spent about $90. Every other tournament I went to was well below that, even if I had hypothetically played Open in all of those. They were pretty much between $50 and 75.

Once again, I'm not arguing, Jeff, just saying that for me (and let me emphasize FOR ME), I view tournaments as primarily entertainment expenses, and I wanted to clarify that "the most expensive entry fee I paid" was nowhere close to what I would have paid at most tournies I attended.

Another factor to consider, for me, is that I don't like playing casual golf. There's no competition in that, no challenge. Even against myself, no ratings, etc. I like playing tournament golf, no matter what the field, what the purse. But that is just me.

I know you weren't arguing. I wasn't either.

I myself was just trying to clarify that I was once in the same boat. But now picture playing in all the 20+ PDGA-sanctioned tournaments in MADC and NEFA land this year you'd like to play in, with Open division entry fees of $50-$75 per tournament.

Do the math at the end of the year, and with no chance at cashing, you've chalked up over $1,000 for "entertainment expenses." At that rate, you might change your tune about playing in casual rounds. :D

I'd like to see the wording changed to Entry + optional performance payout + ace pot

Start at $25 that gets you a player's pack and tournament entry, add $5 for the ace pot, add $30 more for competitive payout in addition to the players pack. Every 3 players at base entry count as 1 player in the extra payout.

Jeff - I sure hope that you took advantage of the PDGA amnesty program this year. It would be nice to see you at a tournament or two again! :D

I couldn't vote because I didn't like the wording of the questions.

What I can say is that I like playing in smaller divisiions where over multiple rounds, I get to play with multiple different people. I like the social aspects of it all, and I think it's cool to get to play with as many different folks as possible. My head affects my game - not the size of my division. I like playing well enough to merch though as most of us do...

Primarily, I like to play well.

I like the endorsement of merching to validate that I played well as compared to my peers.

Collecting the merch (that I don't need and won't sell) and hoarding it in my garage is a weird character flaw I need to work through.

To me, merching is important, the amount of the merch is kind of important, the merch itself means almost nothing.

Collecting the merch (that I don't need and won't sell) and hoarding it in my garage is a weird character flaw I need to work through.



So how long until you need another garage? :D