Casual relief can be taken for large braches no longer attached to a tree. Does this apply to piles of cut branches or logs that have been stacked up into piles on the sides of fairways found on some wooded courses?

I've always climbed on top of the log pile, with sometimes scary footing and played from there if that was my lie.

I am now wondering if casual relief applies, and one could mark an appropriate lie behind the woodpile under casual relief (within 5m on the LOP)?

Would this need to specified by the TD?

Is this acceptable, or would the unplayable lie rule take precedence?

Thanks.

I think it would be better to use a liberal interpretation of solid object relief 803.04E, especially for downed logs.

You can play from on top of the wood if the wood is a playing surface. You have to ask the TD if the wood [or bridges, or picnic tables, or large roots, or rusted out Chevy Caprice] is a playing surface.

Chuck: why would 803.04E take precedence over 803.05C?
The wording of 803.04E suggests that it should only be used when the obstacle prevents taking a legal stance. As stated, one could take a legal stance on top of the pile, its just not a very safe one.

I'm genuinely curious. 803.05C specifically mentions fallen "broken branches no longer attached...", so I thought it appropriate. Isn't a cut log(s) technically the same as a fallen branch? That is to say, it fell when it was cut down.

Bruce: I agree that its better to ask, but I've only encountered this situation during play without specific TD instruction on the matter. A player in my group said I had to play perched precariously on top of the less-than-solid pile of logs. I did so for speed of play.

I realize I can play from on top of the wood pile, but the lie is often too precarious to make a good throw. I would give up a meter or two of distance to have my stance on more solid ground/footing.

Thanks for the feedback ya'll.

You gotta ask at the player meeting if you know those situations are on the course. When you encounter them by surprise, you can play it both ways, record both scores and ask the TD later if your group does not agree on where you should play.

In my group I'd give you the benefit of the solid obstacle or the benefit of it being playing surface, whatever you want. But in some player's groups, you gotta play it both ways and take it up with the TD.

If you read the definition of 'playing surface' in the Glossary, only the ground is one for sure. Any other item is only the playing surface if the TD specifies. Thus, my suggestion of using the solid object rule.

You can always take an unplayable lie under 803.06

803.06 Unplayable Lie

A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player�s score.



Unplayable Lie: A lie from which a player decides that obstacles to stance or throwing motion make it impractical or unsafe to attempt a throw. The lie is relocated with a penalty.

Chuck and Bruce,
I think either way, we're talking about relocating the lie without penalty. That to me is good news. I would reference both rules if pressed on my relocated lie. I will ask from now on at tournaments where I know this comes into play.

That is the key there, marshief. No penalty there.
I asked if it should be unplayable (always could take 803.06, as that is the player's call alone), but that seems silly when the lie can be relocated without a penalty under 803.04E.

So moving the lie in this instance (see first post) is generally acceptable (803.04E)? I've never heard a TD specify this directly at a player's meeting. What is the "default" on this?

One could even choose to selectively apply this, playing from the pile when it a better lie and moving the lie when that would be better?

I had to reread the post. What you're saying Chuck is that if the pile is not specified as a playing surface, then it is not (by default) and qualifies as a solid object under 803.04E. I get it now.

The main difference between a large obstacle and a casual obstacle is the amount of relief obtainable. Casual obstacles are limited to 5m of relief to clear the obstacle. Solid obstacles have no such limitation. You go back as far as required to get to playing surface directly behind the solid obstacle.

:D

893.04
E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

So there's a course with a small building off to one side. Only the roof poses a problem when the 2 m rule is in effect. A roller drive ends up parked right against the structure, placing it squarely between the disc and the hole. Casual relief does not apply here.

Most people I know would not think that you can back up from where the disc stopped, move along the line of play away from the pin, for as long a distance as you want, and take your second shot--all without penalty. I guess Gary interprets "immediately behind that obstacle" to include any distance.

Am I missing something here? By moving away from the building (and the pin), you can end up with a much better second shot (while adding negligible distance). :confused:

I don't know that I would consider a felled tree as a broken branch, but I would certainly consider it debris.

Steve, look closer at your example versus the rule and it's nonsensical. Now, if the disc is up against the building BETWEEN the basket and building, you mark right behind the building on the line of play. If you're already behind the building as in your example, there's no relief because the building is in front of your marker not behind it.

So if the TD doesn't announce the pile of logs to be a casual obstacle and I don't ask beforehand then it can be considered a large solid obstacle, thus giving me relief on the LOP?

I was thinking it would be the same as a disc coming to rest in a tree above the playing surface and must be marked directly below. In this scenario, if the spot below, on the playing surface cannot be accessed (no supporting point able to touch) you would have to take an unplayable.

I wouldn't want to be that harsh on someone (or myself!) but just wondering.

Can you or can't you take a stance on the ground under the brush pile? If it's like most brush piles, there may not be room to get your foot on the ground without moving the branches. If any parts of the tangled pile of "pickup sticks" branches are in front of your lie, you can't move them. So, if your foot can't get in there without disrupting the pile, then you move back on the LOP using the liberal interpretation of the solid object rule until you get get your foot on the ground.

We have lots of wood piles all over our course at Tyler State Park in Newtown, PA. We try to always specify beforehand (although sometimes it gets forgotten in a player's meeting) that these piles are casual obstacles and that the player may get up to 5m of relief if they so choose.

Wish I had known that Bigs. Tyler was the first time I was forced to play perched on top of a log pile. Good to know that it is a Casual obstacle.

It was the assistant TD, playing in my group, who said I had to play from there. Obviously he was wrong. (It wouldn't have made a difference in my mullett round that day, so no problem). I will take relief in this situation in the future.

Thanks

Hi Chuck,

Ok, that helps. If the disc is resting next to the building (still between you and the basket), and to take a legal stance and throw would cause you to hit your arm on the wall, do you get relief? The rule does not state the obstacle is behind or in front of you--just that you cannot take a legal stance within 30 cm behind your mark.

893.04
E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

I guess I am somewhat confused by the term "legal stance" in this case. I understand part A of the rule. But let's say (to be extreme) the disc rolls and leans up against the building on the side that is closest to the pin. By using a marker, you can get about 1-2 cm of space between the wall and the rear edge of the marker. If the arc off the line of play is deep enough, you can put a finger there, take a legal stance, and play. But I think you would argue that the player (in this case) can get relief and move to the far side of the building, in LoP etc.

I guess I am wondering what kind of situation calls for rule E. I have never had mark where I could not somehow contort myself to take a legal stance.

Cheers,
Steve

If the TD does not declare what the playing surface is before the start, what is the default assumption? So if the disc is on top of some natural surface (disc is not touching dirt) that can be walked on (fallen log, stump), is it assumed to be part of the playing surface?

We had a disc this past weekend land on a small footbridge, coming to rest above dry ground (IB) but still on the wood. Everyone in the group assumed it was still playing surface since the TD had not said anything one way or the other. They player took a stance on the footbridge, all parts IB. No change in the lie, no penalty.

In my experience, the TD explains all surfaces that are NOT part of the playing surface (e.g., top of a picnic bench) and indicates whether casual relief is allowed. If some surface is not covered, we just make a group call--with the default going to most things still being part of the playing surface. This has usually been to the benefit of the player.

Playing Surface: The area below where the disc came to rest from which the stance for the next shot is taken. The playing surface is generally the ground but can be any surface deemed suitable for play by the tournament director or course official.

I guess I am somewhat confused by the term "legal stance" in this case



While it's true you can put your finger behind the mini to take a legal stance, the interpretation of the solid object rule, and the reason it was created, was to allow a player to place their foot behind the mini and have close to the 30cm allowed behind the mini to place a contact point. If your disc is up against the wall, then you aren't forced to use the one finger stance and are allowed to go behind the building.

You do not get any relief for arm swing when moving behind the building. One place I've seen this solid object rule come into play is when the disc is up against a chainlink fence on the basket side. Mark on the other side and you might have a tough time throwing over the fence if it's as high as a baseball backstop or tennis court fence. I've had to lie down with my foot behind the mini to get back far enough for some arm swing and angle to fling the disc over the fence.

If the disc is resting next to the building (still between you and the basket), and to take a legal stance and throw would cause you to hit your arm on the wall, do you get relief? The rule does not state the obstacle is behind or in front of you--just that you cannot take a legal stance within 30 cm behind your mark.



I dont think you get relief in that case. You're free to hit the wall with your arm as much as you want, as long as you dont move it :D. You also have the option of throwing in an entirely different direction. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.