Here we go. Player A drives way off of the fairway, down a hill and behind shrubs. Player B watches in disbelief as players C and D who are out of contention rattle the chains and stand at the midway point so player A has a line to throw to. This doesn't effect players C and D but player B was thinking he was gaining a stroke on A when he is rescued. Ball golf has rules against this. Perhaps we should too.

I would say no if we don't allow players to help other players where do you draw the line?

Here's another scenerio, Player A crushes a shot that just goes and goes, Player B says
"Wow, what disc did you throw there?" Player A says "Oh, a FLX Surge" Player C in contention is disappointed as in ball golf a player is not allowed to ask that question, do we need a rule like this in disc golf?

Here we go. Player A drives way off of the fairway, down a hill and behind shrubs. Player B watches in disbelief as players C and D who are out of contention rattle the chains and stand at the midway point so player A has a line to throw to. This doesn't effect players C and D but player B was thinking he was gaining a stroke on A when he is rescued. Ball golf has rules against this. Perhaps we should too.



I would say yes, we need a rule to prevent this. Players should be able to verbally help with finding the right line but not physically be the line or rattle chains.

What you described would be like using a flashlight to find the basket in a sanctioned event that finishes in the dark. If every group doesn't have one, there is a severe advantage curve to anyone that does.

I'm sorry you're not allowed to say that ... STROKE! ;)

I don't have a problem with rattling the chains for someone. If you have to rattle the chains, you can't see the basket. If you can't see the basket, there is usually a forest between you and it. Most people have a relatively good idea where the basket is. I find some landmark that I can see from the lie. The chain rattling isn't that much help.

In that situation, knowing where the basket is doesn't mean you are automatically going to get there. The straight line mentality of most golfers means that you are going to shoot through the shule. Good luck there. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Here we go. Player A drives way off of the fairway, down a hill and behind shrubs. Player B watches in disbelief as players C and D who are out of contention rattle the chains and stand at the midway point so player A has a line to throw to. This doesn't effect players C and D but player B was thinking he was gaining a stroke on A when he is rescued. Ball golf has rules against this. Perhaps we should too.



Personally, I would watch in disbelief if player B, who was in contention, failed to assist player A who had just thrown off the fairway.

The option is to allow the player to walk up, find the target, walk back, lose the target, walk up, find the target, walk back.....

It's a lot quicker to just help him out.

You may be helping one player but you are hurting another.

I would say no if we don't allow players to help other players where do you draw the line?

Here's another scenerio, Player A crushes a shot that just goes and goes, Player B says
"Wow, what disc did you throw there?" Player A says "Oh, a FLX Surge" Player C in contention is disappointed as in ball golf a player is not allowed to ask that question, do we need a rule like this in disc golf?


This also is not allowed in ball golf.

Historically, the rules described by the first two posters developed as golf was sorting out how much help a player could receive from others during the course of a round. Golf decided you could have one helper, your caddy, and the only help he could give you was to carry your bag, manage your equipment, watch where your ball goes, help you look for it and talk to you. And you could only have one person in this role. Neither an opponent nor any person besides your caddy can offer any assistance whatsoever once the competition is underway.

I think player B should have stood 100' to the left of the basket, jingled some change in his pocket and said, "The basket is over HERE!!!!"

Hi Rich,

I'm with Gary on this one. I have, on several occasions, done exactly what you said. And I've done it for people that have no hope of passing me (e.g., the throw you describe is one of many that round--poor guy is suffering) and I've done it for guys that are crushing me (e.g., the only bad throw of the round is the one you described). HOWEVER, I almost always ask first--"Hey, do you need a line up?" In my mind, this is common courtesy, and I'm out to have fun--first and foremost. I feel much better on the karma count for having done so, and it helps me feel and play better. And while I don't ask for anyone to reciprocate during the round, it sure is nice when they do. :)

Cheers,
Steve

Steve, I definately see the polite, courteous side of this but if the guy he's chasing is in your group, he's hoping to gain a stroke and doesn't want to play three against one. I've never asked for help lining up a shot. In fact I've never even thought to ask for help.
It kind reminds me of driving in traffic. When the person in front of you stops 50 cars to allow one car to make a left turn across the lanes. To that one driver you are very polite. To the 50 cars in back you are a flaming jackass.

Hi Rich,

I understand your point--my help of one player may hinder another. But it has been my experience that almost everyone ends up lending a helping hand--across the whole group. Certainly there are exceptions. And I do think that helping out does speed up play--which is a benefit to everyone behind us!
:D

Take care,
Steve

Wow, just wow!!!


There is nothing in the rules preventing this form of good sportsmanship. It doesn't matter that another player in another group won't receive the same benefit from his card mates. If players need to win by not allowing players to receive help from other players, they are in the wrong sport.


On another note: If you think there is a possibility you may be finishing in the dark, bring a flashlight. Tough luck for me and my group if we don't have one. This is akin to saying it is unfair to have an umbrella in the rain if everyone else doesn't have one. Wow, just WOW!!

Personally, I have no problem with the assistance given to Player A. On the other hand, I would probably support a rule that disallowed this much assistance. My preference would be that verbal assistance is acceptable, but giving physical assistance to a player's throw would be unacceptable.

But, since there is no current rule, I wouldn't let this bother me.

I understand Richs point although I, myself, will give help to players if it looks like they need it. One time at a tournament at my home course I was pointing out the different lines you could throw to the pin to the other players on the card. As I played other tournaments, I noticed that nobody else did that. I just look at it as having a level playing field and letting ones own ability (mental as well as physical) determine who 'wins'.

Interestingly, I was just watching a video on YouTube of the 2006 Gran Canyon final round with Ken Climo, Johnny McCray, Alexis Bubis, and Garret Gurthie. One of the players in the group rattled the chains for another player who was down a hill and behind a bush/tree. I didn't see anyone complain about the assistance.

Hey...I like the helping out part myself...if you have to win by not helping your opponent...sheesh

ON THE OTHER HAND...I'm deaf...so to keep it even...I think all of you should wear earplugs! :p
Ben

ON THE OTHER HAND...I'm deaf...so to keep it even...I think all of you should wear earplugs! :p
Ben

Wow, talk about advantages...not having to listen to all the BS in your group! I'm gonna stop and get my pair of earplugs this evening.

I'm fine with the scenario given, as someone upthread pointed out, it's all about saving time. You still have to make the shot.

Just so that everyone knows, time used was not an issue. And the times I have witnessed it, time used wasn't relevant.

I don't know about you guys but I always know where the basket is,shule or no shule.I don't mind if somebody tells me where the basket is and I wouldn't mind telling anybody else but I always take a couple of landmarks before I go into the shule.It never failed so far...(have been playing since 1986).

Also, with the chaotic nature of the flight path of our discs, and the close proximity of the pins to tees on our courses, this is a safety issue. If we can't help other people know where to throw, we're endangering others on the courses. All we need is one shot where someone thought they were throwing at the basket, when they're throwing into a playground, and striking a kid, to get us kicked out of all of these public parks.

hahaha, are you for real?
Maybe you should take a chainsaw and help him out some more?
We are talking tournament play here, right?
The chaotic nature of the flight path?????
Throw a 180 Roc next time :D

The first time I read this thread I started laughing and thought;all these guys will be all over this thread making up rules but alas....only me.

I think you guys should all pay me money to come and play with you in tournaments(kinda like tiger woods).
I think that would be a great rule.

And all (male)players should have female(and single ofcourse) caddies provided by the PDGA.

Come on guys, I could think of some more rules we need!

Isn't there enough rules

How about this Rich?

Player A has never played Course X, and Player B is a local in Player A's group. Course X has poor/ incorrect signage, and their group steps up to a blind hole. Player A asks Player B "Where's the basket?"

Should Player B answer Player A? Should it be against the rules to ask that question?

There is a false assumption in your point below, you assume that by helping one player I am harming another. This is not a true statement. When you play disc golf, while your ultimate score is used to determine ranking, you are truely playing against the course. Disc golf (and ball golf) are unique in this way. Helping one player is NOT hurting another, it isn't possible, unless you cheat. Now the point you might be trying to make is that this could be a form of cheating, but think about it. Am I interfering with Player B's disc in any way?

I carry a retreival pole is it wrong for me to lone it out so that Player B can retreive their favorite disc from the water or 20 feet up in a tree? Is it wrong for players to help knock a disc out of a tree if it is for another player? Should I tell another player that their putter fell out of their bag when they pulled it up from the ground? If I have extra water should I offer it to other players if they run out? Courtesy is extremely important in Disc Golf.


Here we go. Player A drives way off of the fairway, down a hill and behind shrubs. Player B watches in disbelief as players C and D who are out of contention rattle the chains and stand at the midway point so player A has a line to throw to. This doesn't effect players C and D but player B was thinking he was gaining a stroke on A when he is rescued. Ball golf has rules against this. Perhaps we should too.

Showing someone where the basket is before teeing is a little different. The player hasn't thrown yet. Every player has a right to know where the hole is off of the tee. But if a player didn't help or said nothing I wouldn't blame them. It isn't the responsibility of the competing players to caddie for the player that didn't pre-play the course. But if a player shanks his drive into the crap, the rules say we help them find their disc (this is to insure the player takes a legal throw from his bad lie too) but a player shaking the chains and standing to show the line to the basket is going way beyond that. Remember, this is not legal in Ball Golf. And as far as helping one player does not effect another, you are wrong about that. I was the player that lost by one stroke to the player that got help. It may have taken 2 or 3 throws for him to get out of his situation without the help. In my division players are frequently tied or only separated by one stroke. So if it didn't effect me it certainly would have effected someone else.

If the PDGA wanted to make it a rule that a player must help another player in this way (like a lost disc) I'd go along with it but I like the way ball golf does it. I think this is my main point, "It is not the responsibility of the competing players to caddie for the player that didn't pre-play the course."

I think helping a fellow competitor is called "sportsmanship". I don't think you lost by one stroke because other players helped Player A. Perhaps if you made just one more putt or didn't get that one OB stroke, or had just one more drive go exactly where you wanted. Please do not blame your loss on the other two players who were good sports and showed true "spirit of the game" by ringing the chains and providing a line of site for the other player.

Rich,

I can see how you are trying to draw a parallel here between ball and disc golf, but while our game is similar there are some pretty significant differences as well. I still believe that you continue to hold to the false notion that helping a player hurts another. Let us say that player C and D did not help player A and player A still got a par, who is at fault then?

Forget ball golf for the moment, is helping another player, without interfering with anyone's disc, okay? The examples I gave could effect someone's score just as easily as your example and each is an example of helping another player.


Showing someone where the basket is before teeing is a little different. The player hasn't thrown yet. Every player has a right to know where the hole is off of the tee. But if a player didn't help or said nothing I wouldn't blame them. It isn't the responsibility of the competing players to caddie for the player that didn't pre-play the course. But if a player shanks his drive into the crap, the rules say we help them find their disc (this is to insure the player takes a legal throw from his bad lie too) but a player shaking the chains and standing to show the line to the basket is going way beyond that. Remember, this is not legal in Ball Golf. And as far as helping one player does not effect another, you are wrong about that. I was the player that lost by one stroke to the player that got help. It may have taken 2 or 3 throws for him to get out of his situation without the help. In my division players are frequently tied or only separated by one stroke. So if it didn't effect me it certainly would have effected someone else.

If the PDGA wanted to make it a rule that a player must help another player in this way (like a lost disc) I'd go along with it but I like the way ball golf does it. I think this is my main point, "It is not the responsibility of the competing players to caddie for the player that didn't pre-play the course."

There are a couple of misconceptions about the rules of golf on this thread:


8-2 Indicating Line of Play
a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green , a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made. Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.



It does not specify any manner of "indicating" that is illegal, as long as the indicator is removed before the stroke is made.



Also:

8-1/1 Seeking Information About Length of Hole

Q. A player asks his opponent or fellow-competitor the length of the hole about to be played. This information was not displayed on the teeing ground. Was the player in breach of Rule 8-1 which prohibits asking for advice?

A. No. Information as to the length of a hole is not advice within the meaning of the term in the Rules. This is factual information normally available to all players through score cards, tee signs, etc.




My rule of thumb is to follow the rules of golf in all cases, except when they don't work for our particular sport. I believe that the greater emphasis on casual, friendly sportsmanship in our sport would preclude introducing any rules forbiding advice. Now, having said that, no player is under an obligation to describe a hole to a player that hasn't prepped on the course and won't walk up to take a look at a blind shot.

Ball golf has rules against this. Perhaps we should too.



Hey, I LOVE Rules.

I think to further make us all better disc golfers, that
we have a rule that REQUIRES exactly this sort of thing.

Pointing out "home-boy bag drops", hidden lines, unusual
situations, should all be required.

How about 'preventative officiating'? Rules prohibit
fetching a disc (except a putt) that was thrown illegally.
Should you point out a stance violation BEFORE the throw
to give the player a chance to make a legal throw with
his 1st choice disk? Basketball officials are taught this,
at least in the northwest. If you see a line violation and
can fix it before the play occurs, say something, point,
etc.

and screw the stick golfers. (not a rule, just a suggestion)

-------------------
Do you like to play with girls?



Like It? I PREFER it!

I'll go out on a limb and guess that Discette has
thrown, and caught, a real Frisbee or two...?

I don't have a problem with telling people that they are in foot fault, if they ask, but to tell them before they throw.......

Several years back I was playing a round with a player, who clearly knew the rules. He told another player that was on our card that he was about to commit a foot fault. The warned player then got upset and stated he was trying to 'get into his head'. So some people take it well and others get upset about it. Just a warning.