Ok, I've seen players put a towel down to keep from slipping on a tee box. I've seen players put a disc down to place a knee on to keep from getting scratched up and such. It's my understanding that both of these are legal actions. Are they?

The reason this came up is because of what I saw player do at a mini in my area. My first thought was "that doesn't look right". But I wasn't sure it was against any rules, or just unusual.

Here is the story:

The players disc came to rest on a ridge leading up to the basket. The basket was 20m away. After marking his disc it effectively made his stance unlevel. At address (not a straddle putt) his front foot would be about 6 inches higher than his back foot. This isn't what I'd constitute and unsafe lie, just a little tricky to putt from. The player proceeded to take about a 10lb rock and put it where his back foot was, giving him a level stance. Is this against the rules, if so, which one?

Thanks!

Excessive time comes to mind...

I think the rules committee once stated that you could carry a ladder around to lay over mud puddles and "build a lie" to your heart's content.

The player proceeded to take about a 10lb rock and put it where his back foot was, giving him a level stance.



I'd say this is altering the course.

803.05 Obstacles and Relief

A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.05 C.

The situation you describe goes well beyond the "least movement." BTW, an obstacle is defined as "Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play." So, if he player brought the rock with him, then it's cool, but if he just picked it up and moved it from somewhere else on the course, then it's an infraction.

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=383216&page=0&fpart=all& vc=1
^ "Using objects to help your stance". It's in the Rules Q&A (sorta) as well under "Maintaining balance while putting".

As long as you aren't moving anything between you and the hole, it's perfectly legal to move just about anything on the course (including spectators :) ).

Last I knew there was no rule against building a lie. Last tournament I played I tossed a 4X4 post into a large puddle so I would to stand in water over the tops of my shoes. Made the putt too.

As long as you aren't moving anything between you and the hole, it's perfectly legal to move just about anything on the course (including spectators :) ).



Which rule permits a player to "move just about anything" and shows that 803.05 A doesn't apply ?

suppose I should have been clearer -- can move just about anything that's unattached and not part of the course and blah blah blah. or perhaps better to even have just left that part of the comment off.

suppose I should have been clearer -- can move just about anything that's unattached and not part of the course and blah blah blah. or perhaps better to even have just left that part of the comment off.



I'm wondering what rule says it's ok to do these things. I read 803.05 A to say it's wrong to move anything on the course. I must not be reading this right. I'm just wondering what rules apply / permit this?

Thanks

It would appear that as long as the rock was not between their lie and the basket/object and they didn't exceed the time limit of 30 seconds and they didn't damage the course or move course equipment...no problem! As long as the group concurs according to 803.5 D...
Ben

I'm wondering what rule says it's ok to do these things. I read 803.05 A to say it's wrong to move anything on the course. I must not be reading this right. I'm just wondering what rules apply / permit this?

Thanks


I never really thought about this until bcary93 brough it up here, but I think I have to agree with him.

Here's the rule:
803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off

D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.


Any obstacle present on the course is, IMHO, an integral part of the course as it can block rollers and affect footing. Choosing a stance that results in the least movement will always mean not moving any rocks.

Food for thought.

Of course, the cost of levitation devices for all players will make tournaments a little pricey just to keep from walking and changing the surface. No looking for discs in the brush if it will be disturbed. Definitely a quandry on this situation. I've definitely thought about not kicking stones or twigs as I walk along in relation to this rule, especially if Snapper is playing behind me with his rollers...

Of course, the cost of levitation devices for all players will make tournaments a little pricey just to keep from walking and changing the surface. No looking for discs in the brush if it will be disturbed. Definitely a quandry on this situation. I've definitely thought about not kicking stones or twigs as I walk along in relation to this rule, especially if Snapper is playing behind me with his rollers...


Yes, Chuck, make fun of the points if they disagree with your position. Nothing new in that "debate" tactic from you.

Least movement possible: which one is that? Where you pick up a big ole rock and put it in your lie, or where you just throw without moving it.

That's quite a different question than "does stepping on a dirt clod and beaking it into dirt alter the course?"

Pretty much all of those replies are the gist of what I meant.

The specific rule I had in mind was 803.05 B, but that only allows movement of obstacles that have become a factor during the round.

Definitely 803.04 D and 803.05 A state that you must chose a stance that results in the least movement of any obstacle that is a part of the course. But then what exactly constitutes an "obstacle"? The definition tells us: "Obstacle: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play." Well then anything whatsoever on the course is an obstacle, and therefore cannot be moved. But, if we look at 803.05 B and C, then it seems you really only can't move obstacles between you and the hole. So, under 803.05 B and/or C, depending on the nature of the obstacle, you may move most things that are not between you and the hole. Further, I'd argue that it's usually pretty easy to determine whether rocks or sticks are meant to be part of the course (e.g., one of our more open, desert grassland type courses has "ponds" created by rings of rocks, which should not be moved as they are fairly obviously an integral part of the course), or whether they are just part of the terrain.

Yet another example of how impossible it is to cover everything in the rules... Sorry for opening that can of worms.

Yes, Chuck, make fun of the points if they disagree with your position. Nothing new in that "debate" tactic from you.




It was my first post on this topic so what was my position? I thought my remarks just added some levity (hehe).

[..] But, if we look at 803.05 B and C, then it seems you really only can't move obstacles between you and the hole. So, under 803.05 B and/or C, depending on the nature of the obstacle, you may move most things that are not between you and the hole.



We have to read all the rules, in order. So "A" says, "Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle." "B" provides a single exception (and "C" another exception), permitting movement of obstacles "between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as spectators, players� equipment, open gates..."

Section "A" states the general rule (ie. don't move stuff around or break it.) Sections "B" and "C" point out two exceptions to the general rule.

Time to step away from the details for a second... I reread the initial post and we seem to have gotten into two separate issues here:
1) Can a player put equipment on the ground (such as a towel or disc) to aid in stance?
2) Can a player move something found on the course to aid in stance?

We all seem to agree that 1 is ok. However, 2 is being debated. Agree?

I'm now beginning to wonder if 803.05 is the applicable rule here. If we read the rules in order, as suggested, then 803.05 applies "only" (?) to obstacles to stance and throwing motion. A slippery slope is not an "obstacle." A rock 10 m behind my lie is not an obstacle to my stance or throwing motion. Similarly, 803.04 is labeled as "Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off" and this is a question of stance in the fairway (although I realize 803.04 covers throws not from the teeing area... this is perhaps a mislabel of the section). However, under 803.01 F, I'd call 803.04 the nearest existing rule from which I'd make a logical extension.

I then go to 803.04 D. "A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course." This is where I get into a semantical debate with myself about what an "obstacle" is, and further how to define such as a "permanent or integral part of the course", as I referenced in my last post. It is easy for me to rationalize to myself that a random rock or twig is neither a permanent nor integral part of the course. Any shmoe walking by may choose to pick a rock from the course for his rock collection. A bird may decide that she has found the perfect twig for her nest and wisk it away. Similarly, a person may decide to return parts of a rock collection to nature and drop their rocks randomly throughout a course.

I'll assume we all agree that litter is not a "permanent or integral part of the course." At a recent course clean-up day, disc golfers and community volunteers removed "over 3400 gallons of trash and 20 yards of debris�including a matress, 11 tires, and a shopping cart." Bruce Brakel mentioned using a 4x4 post to aid stance recently - how does one know if the post he used was litter or not? Would I be allowed to move that mattress (before it was removed, assuming it was behind my lie) to make a nice, cushy spot to kneel on? Arguably, that mattress shouldn't be there during a tournament and it would be a non-issue, but what about a 4x4? If the answer is that it's not ok to move it as it was not put there during the round, then am I not allowed to move a candy bar wrapper or bottle I find during a round to the trash as it was there before the round started?

see, these are the semantical debates I get into with myself, and decide that I'll let the benefit go to the player.

I also realized that my initial post was in reply to Mr. Cary, but that was because I used this quick reply thing down here - it was not a direct response meant towards anyone/anything but the initial poster's question. I also urge you to read the other thread to which I posted a link.

Yes, Chuck, make fun of the points if they disagree with your position. Nothing new in that "debate" tactic from you.




It was my first post on this topic so what was my position? I thought my remarks just added some levity (hehe).



So did I.

So, at the risk of providing a new target, I will share something that happened to me in Bowling Green, that relates.

Hole 2 at Griffin Park throws over a fence and downhill, you need my absolute best drive to get pin high because it is a slight anhyzer. Making it tougher, there is a stream running on the right-hand side of the fairway. The water in the stream is OB, and it was low, so there was the water in the middle, several feet of mud on either side of the water, and large, flat rocks outside of that, and eventually grass even further out.

My drive was pin high, and the lip of my disc was on a rock, with most of the disc resting on top of mud of an unknown depth. I was clearly in bounds, but since I was 5-6 feet from the water I had to take my stance up in essentially quick sand.

My card decided that I could take a couple of the rocks and put them where my feet were going to be on (in) the mud, which I did. They sank, and I was still in about 3 inches of mud, wobbly on the stones - so I missed the 35-foot, uphill putt.

Putting the rocks where I did, did not affect OB or anything like that, since they sank in the mud anyway. I could see where there might be a possibility for someone later to hit or not hit those two rocks (maybe 6" in diameter and 4" think) and bounce (or not) into the water 6-7 feet away.

So now I sort of feel guilty. I was just going to put my towel down and step on it, to keep my feet from getting muddy. Maybe I should have just done that?

I was still in about 3 inches of mud, wobbly on the stones - so I missed the 35-foot, uphill putt.

All I have to say about all that is, otherwise it was a gimme! :D

803.05 applies "only" (?) to obstacles to stance and throwing motion. A slippery slope is not an "obstacle." A rock 10 m behind my lie is not an obstacle to my stance or throwing motion.




Fortunately for us, there is no question about what "obstacle" means. The rules define obstacle as "Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play." The muddy slope is most definitely an obstacle.

In addition, it seems you're adding the concept of intent. "I'm not rearranging obstacles because they interfere with my throwing motion or stance. I'm rearranging the course to improve my stance."

If a rock on the ground is big enough to be used as a stepping stone, then it should, by any reasonable interpretation be considered a "feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play." Consider if your disc was 3 feet in front of this rock and your natural stance would have your foot dead on top of it . . . it's an obstacle.


This is where I get into a semantical debate with myself about what an "obstacle" is,



Again, there's no need for debate about what an obstacle is, however, you might debate if the rock in question is an obstacle.

But, even more important than trying to find a loophole to justify an action, consider what comes to mind as closest to the "spirit of the law"? What were the creators of the rules trying to say when they wrote them ? This may help decide the issue.

Hi Bill et al.,

In spite of the definition, I think many will interpret the definition of "obstacle" in different ways. If you look up obstacle outside of the context of disc golf, here's one definition: "That which stands in the way, or opposes; anything that hinders progress; a hindrance; an obstruction, physical or moral."

This probably fits with how most people think of an obstacle--it is something that hinders progress. In the case of disc golf, that is usually movement towards the pin.

The PDGA uses: "Obstacle: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play."

Personally, I do not consider the slope of the hillside an obstacle to play, even though it may impede some aspect of my play. To be extreme, air impedes my play. If I was in the vacuum of space, my drives would be a lot farther! :D

I interpret the PDGA definition in the context of my life's experience, and to me, an obstacle is something between me and the pin, and not necessarily a permanent feature of the course (803.05 B includes time as a factor). Personally, I don't consider large rocky outcrops as obstacles. But a fallen tree limb can be.

So I need to disagree with your statement that we don't need to argue about what an "obstacle" is or is not. Yes, we have a definition, but the interpretation and application of that text is a point of debate (in my opinion).

And in the case of moving parts of the course (natural debris, rocks, etc.), I would allow it (when asked for a group ruling) ONLY if it does not damage the course. Those branches/rocks etc. should already be free to move. Finally, I would argue that after the play has been made that the player returns the natural debris to its original location, as much as possible.

Of course, all in under 30 sec (for setting the shot up)! :D

Cheers,
Steve

If you look up obstacle outside of the context of disc golf, here's one definition



The only definition of obstacle that should be consulted while evaluating an obstacle related rule is the definition provided in the rules. The definition is provided for a very, very, very good reason.

I'd like to use the definition of obstacle as provided in the board game "Chutes and Ladders" is that OK, too ?

I think you missed my point. I agree that the definition provided by the PDGA is the one that should be used. We agree completely on that. :D

However, as I think you pointed out earlier, how you and I interpret that definition will differ. I don't consider the slope of the course as an obstacle. Different aspects of the course itself may be thought of as obstacles (or not) by different members of a foursome.

Cheers,
Steve

Not sure why I'm doing this, but our favorite dissenter UnderparMikey has asked that I post his argument to my actions from a couple weeks ago. My original post was as follows:


So I'm playing Pyramids Saturday, and my disc lands in the casual stream. I really want this deuce putt, so I mark my lie, and place a brick size rock behind my mark to keep my foot dry. I ask the group if this is acceptable and they all shrug.

Is this legal?





His response, which does have some merit (once you cut away all the fluff he adds), was as follows:


doot, i won't be doing that, because that really seems like cheating to me.

did the RC really tell you it was OK to move part of the course? Do they even know the rules anymore?

i'd say that when you moved the rock you broke a few rules. First rule you broke:

803.04 D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

don't forget the penalty for that : "A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round. Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

G. Any throw that involves a validly called and seconded stance violation may not be used by the thrower. Re-throws must be taken from the original lie, prior to subsequent play by others in the group."


next rule you broke: 803.05.A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.05 C.

i'm certain you are aware that a stone is not a casual obstacle and therefore can not be moved. the penalty for that is "A player shall receive one penalty throw, without a warning, for violation of an obstacle or relief rule."

Next rule you broke is 803.05.F. A player who purposely damages anything on the course shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The player may also be disqualified from the tournament, in accordance with section 804.05 A (2).

Let's take a look at the next rule you broke: 804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present
(2) Willful and overt destruction or abuse of plant life, course hardware, or any other property considered part of the disc golf course or the park.



I would definitely say that the stone was in its place for a good reason and was considered part of the course. If it was big enough for your fat [censored] to stand on, it was big enough to alter a shot that may have collided with said rock.

Therefore it looks like you should have gotten a total of 1 warning, 3 penalty strokes, and a DQ.

IF THIS DOESN'T SHOW ONCE AND FOR ALL HOW FLIPPIN CLUELESS THE PDGA RULES COMMITTEE IS, NOTHING WILL!!!

I agree with Mike that that action was illegal.

You're allowed to use a towel to prevent slipping on the tee:


802.04 Artificial Devices
A. During a round, a player shall not use any artificial device that may assist in making a throw, except those devices that reduce or control abrasion to the skin (such as gloves, tape, bandages, gauze, etc.) and medical items (such as knee and ankle braces, etc.). Items used to prevent slipping on the teeing surface are also allowed . . .




You built a lie. If that were legal, by extension you could have built a tower to stand on and throw over the trees that were immediately in your way. You had two choices there: play it as it lies or take casual relief under the rules.

Dunno how much of a tower I could build in 30 sec.

Since:
1) a stance requires the supporting point to be on the playing surface in a direct line behind a mini,
2) the mini or marker disc must be on the playing surface,
3) the rule allows an item like a towel to be inserted between the foot and playing surface,
4) a mini can be no thicker than 3cm (1.18 in).

One would conclude that a towel or other item inserted between the foot and the playing surface could legally be up to 3cm thick (the max thickness of a mini). This would preclude allowing a rock thicker than 3cm to be placed behind the mini to keep the player's foot dry, even if the player brought it with him/her. The only exception would be if the RC declared that building a place to take a stance higher than 3cm was legal. If they did make such a ruling, it opens up quite can of worms as some have noted. We don't have a "law of verticality" in this case that allows a player's stance foot to be considered "in line with the mini and basket" if their heights are significantly different and one isn't technically on the playing surface.

at the had of fame classic, I got a lie directly in front of a hole in the ground that had a 12" round stump stuck in it. I asked if it was ok to move the stump, pulled it out of the ground (it was about 18" long, giving me a stance with a big hole in the middle, made my shot (badly) and put the stump back in the ground. It was stated that you could move ANYTHING on the course to give yourself a better lie as a lot of areas had not been fully cleared yet.

I read the rule as only allowing a towel (or other "items used to prevent slipping") to be used on the tee. Therefore, unless the teeing area happens to be in the casual water that doot ended up in (an unlikely scenario), any "stance-building" would be prohibited.

This is a good question and requires review of both the Rules and the Q&A. I believe that contrary to some remarks the correct ruling is 803.04 D., and it refers to least amount of movement of any obstacle that is permanent or an integral part of the course. Clearly anything you carry onto the course is not permanent or integral and therefore if you wished to carry rocks with you for stance assistance, you may do so. The only out for moving an obstacle is allowed for in 803.05 C where it talks about the different types of obstacles a player may encounter.

Now is a rock, twenty feet behind you an obstacle? The precedent is set in 803.05 A where it talks about trash cans, picnic tables, etc. being a permanent part of the park. Obviously these items are part of the park and therefore are considered permanent. So that rock that was 20 feet behind is just as permanent a part of the park as that old 55 gal trash can that has been moved about by the park department. Additionally, while the item is not an obstacle to you, that may not be true for the next card. The only time you are given the right to move an item on the course is when it is in the run up 803.05 C (3), makes your footing slick (best source Rule Question: Unplayable tees ) or appears on the course after the round was started. Remember those rocks you carried on to the course? Well the card behind you saw you leave them after getting tired from carrying them and they moved them.

Just mark the stone with a mini and replace it when you're done using it for footing :D

Several things need to be considered.

1 - Definition of playing surface. Generally the ground, but also any surface deemed suitable by TD or official. Does not mention the teeing area or include it.

2 - 802.04 - Artificial Devices. Items used to prevent slipping on the teeing area are allowed. Fails to mention or allow items used to prevent slipping on the playing surface.

3 - 803.04 - Stance subsequent to teeing off. One supporting point must be in contact with the playing surface.

As I see it, the rules don't specifically allow placing a towel on the playing surface to improve stance, even though that is the practice. The rules limit it to teeing areas. The definition of teeing area does not include the playing surface.

Pursuant to the definition of playing surface, the TD could declare rocks or bricks or blocks of wood that you carry in your bag as suitable playing surfaces. But in the example given above, a rock on the course, whether it is ornamental or an obstacle, would be off limits for moving and using for a stance. Absent the TD declaration above, if you stood on such an item, you would not have a supporting point in contact with the playing surface.

It would appear that the only place where an aid in footing can be legally used is at the teeing area, and that such an aid must be something you brought with you, not part of the course.

I'm curious as to what the logic is that has allowed placing an item on the playing surface to prevent slipping. The 2000 Worlds video shows someone doing this and Houck mentions in his commentary that it is allowed. But by what rule is it allowed? I don't see it.

Mike,

There is a Q&A that discuss this under "Rule Question: Unplayable tees" in this Q&A it states that some players use towel's or could bring a whisk broom if needed. By stating it is done without calling it out as not being allowed, it is allowed by default.



I'm curious as to what the logic is that has allowed placing an item on the playing surface to prevent slipping. The 2000 Worlds video shows someone doing this and Houck mentions in his commentary that it is allowed. But by what rule is it allowed? I don't see it.

That addresses tees, but not playing surfaces. I've heard the logic before that if it's not prohibited, it's allowed, but I can't say that I'm 100% convinced of that logic. Local governments in Virginia follow what's called the Dillon rule where if the law does not allow it, you cannot do it. Since I work for a local government in Virginia, that probably influences my thinking on that.

Nonetheless, regarding shots made after teeing off, if you only use one supporting point at the time of release, and that supporting point is on a towel, then you have no supporting point on the playing surface as required, unless the TD or course official declares towels as suitable playing surfaces.

Concerning the 2000 Worlds example I cited, I now recall that the player was kneeling down to shoot. One supporting point was on the towel, but the other was on the playing surface at the time of release, therefore making it a legal stance and throw.

In the case of the Q&A it is not so much a matter of it not being prohibited, the rules committee stated it was done and they did not call it out as illegal.

As for having a contact with the surface, this is preceded with the requirement to have a supporting point. If you look at the definition of a supporting point:

Supporting Point: Any part of a player's body that is in contact with the playing surface or some other object capable of providing support, at the time of release

This allows contact with a towel, or any other object. It seems odd that the term 'supporting point' and 'surface' are used together in the rules, but the definition of supporting point allows you to be above the playing surface as long as it is providing support.


That addresses tees, but not playing surfaces. I've heard the logic before that if it's not prohibited, it's allowed, but I can't say that I'm 100% convinced of that logic. Local governments in Virginia follow what's called the Dillon rule where if the law does not allow it, you cannot do it. Since I work for a local government in Virginia, that probably influences my thinking on that.

Nonetheless, regarding shots made after teeing off, if you only use one supporting point at the time of release, and that supporting point is on a towel, then you have no supporting point on the playing surface as required, unless the TD or course official declares towels as suitable playing surfaces.

Concerning the 2000 Worlds example I cited, I now recall that the player was kneeling down to shoot. One supporting point was on the towel, but the other was on the playing surface at the time of release, therefore making it a legal stance and throw.

Good point (no pun intended :D).

I failed to look at the definition of supporting point before, but now that I have, it would seem to allow a player to carry rocks, bricks, or a block of wood to stand upon even without the TD declaring them as suitable playing surfaces, as they are other objects that are capable of providing support.

I still say that it's not legal to move an object on the course and use it to stand on, with the exception of objects between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round.

In the case of the Q&A it is not so much a matter of it not being prohibited, the rules committee stated it was done and they did not call it out as illegal.

As for having a contact with the surface, this is preceded with the requirement to have a supporting point. If you look at the definition of a supporting point:

Supporting Point: Any part of a player's body that is in contact with the playing surface or some other object capable of providing support, at the time of release

This allows contact with a towel, or any other object. It seems odd that the term 'supporting point' and 'surface' are used together in the rules, but the definition of supporting point allows you to be above the playing surface as long as it is providing support.



It most certainly DOES NOT. The rule reads:
When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface . . .

So, while a "supporting point" may, indeed, be defined as contact with pretty much anything, at least one of those "supporting points" MUST be in contact with the playing surface at the time of release.

Playing Surface: The area below where the disc came to rest from which the stance for the next shot is taken. The playing surface is generally the ground but <font color="red"> can be any surface deemed suitable for play by the tournament director or course official.</font>

So if the TD says putting down a towel (or a ladder, for that matter) is OK, it is OK, but otherwise, at least one point-of-contact must be with the ground. Sounds reasonable.

So if the TD says putting down a towel (or a ladder, for that matter) is OK, it is OK, but otherwise, at least one point-of-contact must be with the ground. Sounds reasonable.


I can't tell if this comment was serious or tongue-in-cheek. We definitely don't need to expand on the "local conditions" list for tournaments. These are already the items that create the most rules incidents. Players don't attend the meeting, don't hear the TD, or have an honest difference of opinion on the interpretation of what was said.

I can't tell if this comment was serious or tongue-in-cheek.



Firmly in cheek.

I see no problem moving a rock or rocks to keep your foot dry in casual water. As long as you put the rocks back. For that matter you should replace all the sticks and obstacles you move to legally improve your stance or run up.

If moving the rocks to begin with was an infraction, then moving anything on the course would be a penalty. Crushing a pine cone, or snapping a twig.

Pushing a branch out of the way to allow entry into a dense area would also be denied.

I agree w/ BOB! The whole notion of touch nothing/move nothing is total overkill. Every object is not an obstacle. Objects move around a course with regularity. Anyone who believes that all objects/potential obstacles on a woodsy course remain static during a round of play is an idealogue. It just doesn't happen.

For me, the rocks large enough to keep you above casual water are part of the course and cannot be moved. If sticks and pine cones are part of your course, then you should probably announce that at the players meeting because in my experience, that would not be the norm.

Moving anything on the course a penalty? Read the rules and you will see that there are several things on the course that are allowed to be moved depending upon the situation.

Pushing a branch out of the way to gain entry to a dense area is certainly allowed. Assuming you mean a live branch, the branch cannot be permanently moved - it goes back to its original position once you let go. Once you enter the dense area and take your stance though, you cannot hold anything back, such as a live branch.

In the example at hand, the player's disc landed in casual water and did not want to take the casual relief because that would have put them too far from the pin for a putt. No problem with that, but I say don't be such a sissy - put your foot in the water and take your shot.

True, every object is not an obstacle. And not every permanent part of a course is an obstacle. For example, the rock cairns at The Grange on certain holes are not really obstacles, but they are part of the course and are not intended to be moved. They are ornaments - part of the landscaping if you will.

Let's say you encounter an azalea bush that's 12 inches tall, and a boulder that's 12 inches tall. Are you allowed to dig up either one and move them for any reason? I would say no.

I agree that this could be taken to a overkill level, but there has to be some line drawn.

I also agree that thinking this stuff doesn't get moved is idealogic. Like all players following the rules, it just doesn't happen.

In the example at hand, the player's disc landed in casual water and did not want to take the casual relief because that would have put them too far from the pin for a putt. No problem with that, but I say don't be such a sissy - put your foot in the water and take your shot.



I looked back and was wrong on this point - it was not the original example. But I think someone mentioned it along the way and it got stuck in my head. :D