Payouts (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=6623&year=2007&incl udeRatings=1#Open)

Does anyone else think that the payout for 4th place is a little high? Notice that the TD got 4th.

Notice the impressive bagging too.

Yes, the bagging of Ziggy is intense, but he is only 14. He will be moving up soon.
But 4th out of 8 wins $40 entry fee + $37? No way, cmon. That should be money back. Is the TD taking advantage? Seems like it to me.

Way too high IMO. I guess payouts weren't posted during lunch...

I didn't see them. I can't say either way, because I didn't look hard. Noone that I asked saw them posted.

The payout chart goes $179, $113, $83, $61. Also, unless they changed the rule, 1st and 2nd don't split on a tie. All other spots split, but not first and second.

The rule is 804.07. Ties other than first split.

Osh isn't the type of guy who would cheat everyone out of $3 so he could get $12. I'm pretty sure he does not use payout tables.

Man that just seems wrong.

What did the TD say when you asked him/PMd him on these boards/PMd him on his boards (tadga)/called him etc?

It is confirmed that the payouts were posted before the 2nd round. I am very happy that this happened.
It looks like the added cash was spread amongst the Open payouts. Good news, all is settled. THe payouts were posted prior to the 2nd round and I shouldn't have brought this up.

yeah the first place splitting money is no longer allowed in PDGA events.

Read the rules TDs.

We thank you for your work, but you need to do your job. It's not that hard.

its the players who split the $ not the td's.

Generally speaking, to TD's profit financially from running a tournament?

its the players who split the $ not the td's.



right, what players do in thier own time is thier own decision.

However, the TD MUST report it as if they didn't split.

The TD or the PDGA has no control on what people do in thier free time.

Generally speaking, to TD's profit financially from running a tournament?



Yes, most of the time (well the TD or usually the club.)

It's really simple how.

Let's say there are 50 amateur players, who all paid 35 dollars to play the event.

2 dollars to the PDGA, so 33 goes towards the purse.

The club gives each player a champion disc in thier player pack. Now there is 18 towards the purse, or 900 dollars.

Now lets say they pay all champion plastic. This means that 60 discs will be given out, plus the 50 that were given in the players pack.

This means that of the 1750 dollars paid by the players, 100 goes to the PDGA and 1650 goes towards the discs.

However, the club bought the disc at wholesale prices. Let's say 10 bux for the champion discs.

So instead of 1650, the club paid 1,100 for the discs. The club then profits 550 dollars.

i would not go so far as to say that td's generally make money. i myself virtually never make a dime off of running an event unless i sell a ton of merch- my rule of thumb for years was to try to avoid spending more than $200 of my own money on an event, if i spent $200 i considered that breaking even. i have more recently modified that to simply trying to break even.

when the local club runs the event they generally do make a little, virtually any profit they show is from mark-up of am prizes.

methods will vary from td to td and place to place.

In our club's tournaments, we do obviously get the Am merch markup and make money, but that money ends up going back into the tournament for added cash, free lunch, etc.

That would be nice if it were cut and dry like that.

We (Local 101) charge below retail for all discs being paid out, and we charge way below retail for players packs. We buy or make our own trophies and do not take anything out of the entry fee for trophies. These can be quite expensive when making 5-10 nice trophies. We make nice laminated signs to promote events, which are also expensive. We also have a club banner and tent, not cheap. We donate lots of CTPs, which comes out of our inventory, hence less $$ for us. For our B-tier in May, we are making a "Thank you" gift for our title sponsor, not cheap. Also we donated $100 to the FPO division for this B-tier, and I hope we will be adding cash to every event we put on. Basic supplies, misc. items for tournaments, web hosting fees, everything adds up. We have future plans of course improvements as well, which we will spend lots of $$ on.

A part of our motto is "For the player", and we hook it up. Lots of TDs or clubs do not hook it up like us, but some do. Those are the good ones. Our club makes some profit, but that will just be flowing back into disc golf some way or another. Us members and original investors do not put ANY money into our pockets. In a couple years we will possibly take back our original investment when our bank grows.

If you are interested in how to start a club like ours, give me a PM. It's fairly easy with 5-10 dedicated disc golfers. It's alot of fun and feels good to give back to disc golf.

Most TDs lose money on the pros and make money on the ams, for the reasons explained by MTL.

At IOS tournaments we pay back to the pros all of their entry fee less the rake taken by the PDGA and the local park district. Sometimes we cover one or the other of those and sometimes those are covered by trophy-only players. So our pros are always a net loss to us, but not a big net loss.

We give our ams a $15 Innova or $20 Discraft player pack [their choice] and only deduct $10 from the payout for that. We don't deduct anything for the PDGA fees, park use fees, trophies or other expenses. Our payouts usually are 140 to 150% to the ams, not counting the 25 to 30% more a player can take home if he chooses Discraft over Innova.

Doing that we usually make about $2 per amateur. Since the PDGA is taking about $4 to $5 per amateur, I don't think it is too much for the tournament to make about $2 per amateur.

i think being honest on how the players $ (entry fee) is divided is most important. i have always wondered why some B or C Tiers the Pro/Adv get ***** on with the payout and sometimes not, it would be nice to see the breakdown each time.

I think that if you knew more about running tournaments, you would realize that the people who are truly getting crapped on are the TDs and the volunteers.

In the long run, I think it would be healthier for disc golf if all TDs took their 'cut' as suggested by the PDGA guidelines. Perhaps more people would be willing to run tournaments, and we'd have better tournaments and less burnout because of it.

Where else is there such a model where such a large group of people are continually expected to put in time and effort without compensation? A TD can't even treat a volunteer staff to pizza and beer after a tournament without some 'slide-rule' am complaining that the payout sucked.

Oh, as a side note, since you will be one of the main beneficiaries, I assume you will be joining us for a work day at Dineen this Saturday at 8:00?

A TD can't even treat a volunteer staff to pizza and beer after a tournament without some 'slide-rule' am complaining that the payout sucked.


Don't be a hater. There are plenty of 'slide-rule' pros chirping alongside those ams!

Yes indeed, I would have been better to phrase that as 'slide rule participants' as opposed to singling out a specific group. I wasn't intending to comment on an Am vs. Pro thing, but more that the people working for 'gratitude' sometimes get a bit weary of those complaining that they aren't getting enough.

On this particular issue I would like to confirm that as Daemon said the payouts were up between rounds. I am, however, going to encourage the purchase of an extra large whiteboard so they can be made more public. They were posted at the bottom of a sheet on clipboards at the same table we were shooing people away from so we could get cards made up. There was some confusion, BUT the numbers were up before second round.

As for the issue in general, I agree that the TD deserves a small cut. What is minimum wage in your area? I believe that the TD deserves that multiplied by five to pocket. I know a TD puts in more than five hours of work, so I'm actually being less-than-completely-generous here. Around here thats about $30. If you've got six to eight divisions, that isn't a lot of money pulled.

And finally, on a more local note to Daemon: You may remember TADGA used to post FULL financial calculations for each tournament. I fell away from last summer as the guy posting things online, my own sloth there. I think starting with the Vienna Open I'm going to work to get full numbers up on TADGA.com for all the players to see where their $$ went.


-Chris.

�Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.�
Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)


If A is success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.
Bill Cosby (1937 - )


How quickly would Disc Golf collapse locally without volunteers?

The success of one, leads to the success of many. TD�s are not simply to be seen as �glorified� volunteer�s who should avoid taking compensation in fear of being called �money hungry�!! Or tarred and feathered by fellow disc golfers as �only doing it for the money�! What a bunch of crap!

Whenever I read such �tripe� it seems this sport doesn�t deserve to succeed.

The day TD�s can pay themselves a working wage, along with ALL their volunteer�s���is the day outside sponsors can see serious cash flow being put into this sport! Until that day how would they properly evaluate the wealth behind the sport, and what reward financially they perceive to become financial sponsors to get some of the $ pie!

If we wake up�..pay our dues today and lift up just one, just ONE tournament staff��..our appreciation through higher entry fee�s and pays the TD, and all the volunteer�s some money! Now�there would be the stepping stone for REAL success!

But who would pay the entry fee for this? Certainly NOT the people, who complain about payouts, complain about TD�s taking at least something, and still nothing for volunteer�s who served them all.

Failure is pleasing everyone�..and the burned out bodies are piling up!

Congratulate yourself��if payouts (after no money for volunteer�s or TD�s) are just twisting your mind all up�that your solution must be to trash the TD and insinuate that it�s all corrupt!

************************************************** ********
Cutting to the chase: here are a few suggested �mottos� for you payout watchdogs:

�Divorce for Disc Golf�

�Neglect your family on your own time�.we expect free service�

�Your getting paid for taking my complaints�.NO�.doesn�t matter you�re the TD.�

�Beat your dog��.but don�t dare raise our entry fee.�

�Hang em�if taking compensation for themselves and volunteer�s for running Tournaments�

�Character assassinate the TD�.keep the sport PURE!�




Sports do not build character. They reveal it.
Heywood Hale Broun


What is Disc Golf revealing in player�s seeking a conspiracy where none exist, and innuendos are real?

Simply the worst! No redemption ever given no apology quick to come when facts are simply viewed as �inconvenient�.


Dlo #21847


This may have been off topic�I apologize for ranting. Simply put me on your ignore list for awhile until I calm down.

Sorry if I offended someone with my post, it was not directed at anyone personally; It was just my observation based on the information and results of tournaments posted on pdga.com. I was not calling anyone out despite what you think Mr. Kiefer.

And I will be helping Mike Batka tomorrow for the Wham Bam just to let you know Mr. Kiefer, but thanks for all the work you have put in. I tried to make as many work days i could.

Also, I agree that TD's and volunteers should get some paid for running events, I know it's a lot of work. It's not fair to read into what I said and make your own conclusions. I have been to enough tournament now to realize its no easy task so dont put words in my mouth, you don't know me.

thanks and again, I was not trying offend anyone.

From what I can tell, Mike has things pretty much under control and has quite the staff already helping out. A call to him may show that he's got Saturday morning covered. Perhaps you may consider that your efforts would best advance disc golf in the area by showing up at Dineen at 8:00, shovel in hand, as opposed to hanging out at Sussex.

That would be 8:00 am, in case there is any confusion.

And no, I don't know you as I haven't seen you on the work days that I've been involved with. But I am looking forward to getting to know you, perhaps as early as tomorrow morning!

thanks for the info tkiefer

No problem, rjohnsen, looking forward to seeing you!

Take with a grain of salt......

My comments were rather pointed, and not particular to anyone in mind.

Seems my late night "rant" was not appropriate and I ask that if it offended anyones sensibilities the fault is all mine.

R.Johnson is a good guy...........I know him personally. My comments were not directed to him in anyway!!

My attempt at making a general point was just a little out of hand, and overboard.

My sincere apologies.

Your friend,

Don L