With the IFT celebrating it's 50th...there has been alot of discussion among the GPA (GUTS Players Assoc.)about the origins of disc golf. I thought I would post some of the e-mails I got from Jim Palmeril, John Sappington and Phil Kennedy so you all could be included this discussion. Specifically they are taking "issue" with the Thought that Ed Hedricks is the "Inventor of Disc Golf"... (e-mail addresses are included so you can join the discussion.

discussion e-mails:

Both Phil Kennedy and John Sappington made good points about the origins of disc golf. I want to further clarify.



Disc golf was never �invented�. As John pointed out, golf has been around for a long time. Over 400 years actually. People have been tossing disc shaped objects for a long time also, long before the plastic versions came into being. Who knows how many of those pre-plastic disc flying enthusiasts discovered that they could play the game of golf with their tin lids, cake tins or pie pans? And when?



The first historically known instance was in 1926 where a group of boys played what they called �Tin Lid Golf�. Victor Malafronte�s book describes other pre-plastic disc golf activity in the 30�s and forties, and there are a number of post�plastic episodes of disc golf activity in the fifties and 60�s, including the Berkeley Frisbee group's disc golf play, which was introduced to them by Jay Shelton.



George Sappenfield introduced the concept of "Frisbee" golf to Wham-O in 1968, and petitioned ED Headrick to include �Frisbee� golf at the 1969 Pasadena �All Comers� meet. It wasn�t a schedule event for the meet, but Ed let him set up a course, and a number of participants played a round of Frisbee golf in-between the planned events. Jay Shelton won the event and Wham-O created a trophy for him to award him for his efforts.



But none of these pockets of disc golf activity led to the development of today�s sport of disc golf. Wham-O didn�t get interested in this new Frisbee activity that George Sappenfield introduced to them, and it got swept under the rug behind the traditional guts and distance, and Ed�s new �Proficiency� tests. The game of disc golf was completely forgotten by 1972 when Goldie Norton published the �Frisbee Handbook� for Wham-O, which described the history and development of Frisbee, and all the known games and activities that people do with a Frisbee. Except for "Frisbee" golf, which is not mentioned anywhere in the book!



So, while it is impossible to uncover just who was the first person to discover playing golf with a flying disc, the chain of events that led to the development of today�s full blown sport of Disc Golf can be distinctly pinpointed and chronicled in detail.



Neither Ed Headrick nor anyone else �invented� disc golf. But that being said, the developments that led Dan Roddick to convince Ed Headrick to include disc golf in the 1975 World Frisbee Championships started things going. Ed invented the chain pole hole as a result of feedback from that 1975 WFC disc golf event, and this time around, he got so enthused with disc golf that he quit Wham-O and started his DGA company. Ed�s efforts in conjunction with Dan Roddick�s including of Disc Golf in the IFA tournament series boomed Disc Golf out to every corner of the world, and the sport grew explosively. That is where the sport of disc golf came from. The details of the events that led Ed Headrick to disc golf will be forthcoming in a book entitled "The Origins and Early History of Disc Golf". Hopefully sooner than later.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Flat Flip [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: List
Subject: Re: Frisbee in the News


Hi John...


As I related in my earlier message, my activities with Pluto Platter Golf in 1957 were an adaptation of an existing sport...namely ball golf. I believe Victor in his book correctly indicates that similar "adaptations" occurred in the past using all sorts of round, flat, "found" objects (yes, maybe even pie tins?!). Thus, I can't see how any one person could fairly claim to be THE " Inventor of Disc Golf." I certainly would never be so brazen.


But, just maybe the longest-running disc golfer?


Regards,


Phil Kennedy


On May 26, 2007, at 7:15 PM, John Sappington wrote:


I realize that Steady Ed patented the disc pole hole but I wouldn't be so sure about who invented frisbee golf or where it was invented. Ball golf has been around a long time. Given that a frisbee (disc) is basically a flat ball and both balls and discs have been around for quite some time and used in many games (discus, anyone??), it is but a natural extension to disc golf. I suspect that in the counter cultural upheaval of the 1960's that disc golf was invented independently in numerous settings around the country in places likely Berkeley, Ann Arbor, Chicago, Minneapolis, Rochester to name a few (apologies to all places I left off the list). I recall Scott Dickson having mapped out various courses in the Arb near campus at U of Michigan during our college days -- 1968-1972. The courses were written down and xeroxed (yes, Xeroxes even in the 1960's) to hand out so folks could follow them even if they'd never been to the Arb before and didn't have Scott or someone else in the know as their guide. Of course, there was the occasional mid-course "hole" correction when the Arb grounds crews would remove or relocate a particular rock or garbage can that had been the target "hole". It was common knowledge that such actions by the grounds crews were political subterfuge by the disapproving "establishment" of the times. Anyway, those were recorded courses that the Humblies and acquaintances and guests played. The times were fun and filled with tremendous up welling of creativity and exploration of what can be done with a disc and, by extrapolation, life. These explorations were prolific in many communities around the country. As a fellow discophile once proclaimed when told he had thrown it wrong... "I didn't realize that there was a right way to play..." I believe that the true inventor and place of invention for disc golf will forever remain anonymous -- not a bad thing.

Double P

Does DGA indicate Ed is the inventor of disc golf? Here's the statement from the History on the DGA site: The game was formalized when Headrick invented the first Disc Pole Hole, catching device, consisting of 10 chains hanging in a parabolic shape over an upward opening basket, US Patent 4,039,189, issued 1975.

http://www.discgolfassoc.com/history.html

The real question is when or how does a sport get invented ?

Virtually every organized sport was played in some form by casual players prior to being formalized and developed.

At what point does the "sport" start and the "game" end ?

I am not passing judgement one way or another...I have been watching these e-mails for a day or two now...being circulated with in the GPA...thought the serious golfers would like to know what the "really old men" frisbee had to say on the subject...

Feel free to interject yourself into their conversation...as I do not have any factual knowledge to dispute anything said...I'm only 44 :(

Does DGA indicate Ed is the inventor of disc golf? Here's the statement from the History on the DGA site: The game was formalized when Headrick invented the first Disc Pole Hole, catching device, consisting of 10 chains hanging in a parabolic shape over an upward opening basket, US Patent 4,039,189, issued 1975.

http://www.discgolfassoc.com/history.html



Ed co-invented the pole hole along with his son Ken. Part of the formalizing credit has to go to Ed's publishing of the Rules of Disc Golf, and the commercialization which funded the promotion of disc golf. The Cone basket was just as "formal", but was not as well recieved, nor as well promoted. The organizations created by Ed also went a long way towards promoting disc golf. The first was the IFA (with Dan Roddick), and the next was the DGA/PDGA. Both of these were national and international efforts that presented and promoted disc golf.

What was the "cone basket"?

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3772/748/1600/cone.jpg

Cone was metal or plastic and former PDGA Commish Jim Challas was involved with the company in Minnesota. We still have metal cone baskets on some courses with Moir Park in Bloomington having 9 cones since about 1980.

thanks for the input...This has been pretty interesting.

And I played the Urbandale Course in IA, in 1989 or 90 and they had a couple of cones there, as well as a "tube tone".

wow..imagine putting on that thing.

wow..imagine putting on that thing.



Outside of 20 feet, you really couldn't.

The course at Cape May County Zoo in NJ used to have these. Holing out was exceedingly difficult unless you were basically parked. See where that guy is tapping in from? That's about the furthest you wanted to putt from. :DThose baskets did make a very short and straightforward pitch-n-putt a lot more challenging, I'll give them that.

Perhaps cones are the solution to getting our putting challenge more in line with the putting averages in ball golf? :)

We had cones on the original 9 holer at Adler back in the late 70s. Putting was a challenge, but aces were impossible. Of course, with what we were throwing, aces were impossible anyway!

Those who practice putting on cones - which is like aiming at a mail slot - become better putters on chains.

I got a cone ace at the Owatonna, MN KOA course! 200' wide open, but it was a cone ace that I'm proud of. I know of some people with cone aces from many years ago on my home course in Austin, MN, so it can be done. We now have all Mach 3s.

Timmy Gill had one of the more memorable aces on a cone basket in the mid-90s at the now defunct Lone Lake course in Hopkins, MN. He launched his drive high to the right such that it likely would have hyzered beyond the basket. About 3/4 of the way, his disc hit a duck or goose in flight and it got redirected into the cone basket for an ace and "birdie" on the same throw.

I'm getting all nostalgic...thinking of my fist ace in '79 at Burke lake with a 141 Frisbee. But that was in a mach 1.

Where can courses with the cone baskets be found? Are there any in the vicinity of Milwaukee (Am Worlds)? I'd like to play a cone course with my son, if possible, on this year's Tour de Rizbee.

Is Minneapolis (Bloomington) on your route? I think there might still be cones at Wildwood Park in Ottumwa, Iowa if you're on that route. Libertyville, IL north of Chicago had them at one time but I think those are gone. Maybe another park got them in the Chicago area?

back about 8 years ago I got to play the Bloomington course , THAT was a blast .

Libertyville, IL north of Chicago had them at one time but I think those are gone.



Libertyville no longer uses them.

Another installment of "origins of Disc Golf" from Scott Dickson...thought you you all might appreciate reading this stuff (sorry to stop the thread drift)

Scott Writes:

I didn't want to include the whole Guts list in a Disc Golf discussion, so I limited the cc's to those who responded to the original posting.


I remember well mapping out the Arb course, producing a color map that I made black and white copies of. There may have been earlier maps of other courses, but I'm not aware of any. When I went to Berkeley in the early 70's, there was no map -- Roger Barrett had to guide me around the Berkeley course. I'll have to go through the boxes of stuff and see if any copies of the Ann Arbor map survive. If so, I'll scan it in.


That was a fun course! The Arb had a lot of open spaces, but enough hills and vegetation to make things interesting. There were blind holes, elevated tees and lots of shot alternatives due to intervening plants and trees. I did not like mandatories, so used vegetation to "strongly suggest" shot variety. without resorting to the "tree tunnels" found in a lot of courses in the Midwest and Southeast. One really cool blind hole required going over a small hill and dropping into a valley behind it. It was a lot like the Santa Cruz course, but without the poison ivy. The main hazard to humans was the raspberry bushes (which I remember John Connelly referring to as "raspberry city").


I'm not sure Ed left Wham-o due solely to his enthusiasm for Disc Golf. There may have been other reasons for his departure. He was instrumental in getting the first permanent Frisbee Golf (as it was first known) courses installed in public parks in the LA area at Oak Grove, La Mirada, and Ladera Park. These courses used metal poles as targets, resulting in the usual disputes as to whether or not the target had been hit, particularly if the shot was blind. In most cases, a distinct "ping" would confirm a hit.


Stork introduced the ground baskets for tournament play, made by forming a circle with flexible garden fencing and anchoring it to the ground with tent pegs. This ended the disputes, except in a few cases where a shot pulled out the tent pegs, or the disk slid in on the ground and under the fence.


When Ed first showed me his Disc Pole Hole invention, he explained some of the reasoning for its design. It had to be durable and vandalism-resistant. It had to provide a reasonably-sized target. And, it had to provide an unambiguous indication that the hole was completed. He did not particularly like the vertical putting style many used with the ground baskets and wanted a target that encouraged using a more usual floating flight profile. The basket had widely spaced bars on the bottom to discourage its use as a barbeque (although this didn't completely work - people put foil over the bottom of the basket and put the brickettes on that).


When the Disc Pole Holes began to be manufactured, the courses at Oak Grove and La Mirada were upgraded to Disc Pole Holes. Ladera was never upgraded, and I believe that at some point the poles were removed.


Ed also discovered that when the 40 mold 119G disks were shot with plastic that had extra moonlighter glow material in them, their weight increased substantially and they were more stable and flew further when thrown by strong throwers. They were also a bit more more likely to crack. He had Wham-o run a bunch of them for PDGA to sell as the Night Flyer (later renamed Midnight Flyer) discs specifically targeted at disc golf players. I remember taking a case of them to Minnesota just after they were produced to sell at a tournament there, which was probably the first sale of discs specifically made for disc golf.


Scott

The Glow Frisbee's were made for a couple of course's at Myrtle Beach S.C. One man bought 3 course's and had two of them open at night. They were pay to play for the night time tourist business. He asked Ed for some serious glow discs and the rest is history.
The third course was a championsip course called Tobacco Barn and hosted a big PDGA event of the same name. The best players from the S.E.were all there. Tom Monroe won.
His favorite driver was a 50 mold Midnight Flyer. Back then, many players carried a repair kit to fix the Frisbees when they cracked.

Another installment from Jim Palmeri:

Jim writes:

Hi Scott, great to hear from you! And great information also! I did have a chance to play the ARB course during one of the Ann Arbor Indoor tournament weekends. I remember it being the best course I had played on at the time, and it influenced the way I designed the Ellison Park courses for the subsequent AFDO events and the 1984 worlds.

Just for the record, It was Gary Seubert that came up with the idea for the wire ground baskets in conjunction of working with Dan Roddick in preparing the Johnson Park disc golf course layout they used for the 1974 "Jersey Jam" event.

And it never occurred to me the Ed may have left Wham-O for other reasons than to start the DGA, but it makes perfect sense knowing Ed's disposition and his on-off relationship with Rich and Spud. The effect of his departure had the same effect on the growth of disc golf however.

Please keep me posted about anything you find in your boxes of stuff that pertains to early disc golf play.

Thanks,

Jim P.

The Glow Frisbee's were made for a couple of course's at Myrtle Beach S.C. One man bought 3 course's and had two of them open at night. They were pay to play for the night time tourist business. He asked Ed for some serious glow discs and the rest is history.
The third course was a championsip course called Tobacco Barn and hosted a big PDGA event of the same name. The best players from the S.E.were all there. Tom Monroe won.
His favorite driver was a 50 mold Midnight Flyer. Back then, many players carried a repair kit to fix the Frisbees when they cracked.


Gee drdisc, your memory is amazing - that you can not only remember the tourney, but you can remember who won! ;)

Were the Myrtle Beach baskets the ones with the dome on top and light under the dome to re-charge the glow of your disc? I remember playing on some of those baskets in Athens, GA too.

Yep, same type of baskets with the light bulbs in the top.
That Athens course was sweet. The front nine had the lights.
I still have 9 of them. Just add a few more chains and they work just fine.

Hey, I remember that tournament! I drove down from Indiana to compete in it. The course was laid out on someone's farm, and Ross Snyder ran it, right? The baskets had a red dome on top, which made high putts a real adventure. As I recall, it was a little humid that weekend as well.

That is a fact. There was a cone course at the Western Hills Lodge near Wagoner, Ok. I played it many times, and the cones are the most difficult baskets to hit. If you werent parked, you were in for a thrill. As mentioned, outside of 20 feet was a very tough putt. I am glad I had to chance to play on a course that had them.

Bill, Ron Vngerelli (sp) won in Athens. I'm sure Ross did very well. Tom Wingo did pretty good too. Remember distance in the rain?
BTW, Lavone has mounted an actual missle on top of the practice pole at UAH. It stands about 14 feet tall. Very cool.

Does anyone know if there are still any cone courses in the ground? I want to play one with my son this summer on our road trip.

<font color="red"> DR DOOM !!!!! </font>

How are ya, brother???

Alan, Tom - There is a complete set of "the old Myrtle Beach baskets" in the ground at Earlewood Park in Columbia SC. (At least, that's what I've been told ... I go a long way back in disc golf in SC but I never did get to Myrtle Beach way back then.) I think the story is that the baskets were moved to Columbia after Hurricane Hugo. David Sauls keeps up with the message board, and he could give you many more details about how they came to be moved to Columbia.

Those baskets are uniquely fun to putt on. First, you'd better not go high or you can skip right off that dome. Second, you'd better not go wide (the baskets are about the diameter of a dinner plate). Third, you'd better not go low and catch an edge, because you WILLLL ROLLLLL at Earlewood! But if you putt straight and strong, your putts will work great, because those baskets have got these terrific heavy chains. (I'm not sure the chains are original).

I played Earlewood on my way out of town after the HoF Classic. I was wondering if the baskets were in fact DGA baskets, because I don't remember baskets with the same light-guage cage material on the bottom.

Yup - you gotta watch out for the skip off the dome!

9 cone baskets were still at Lake Murry last time I checked. Just a few miles off 35 between OKC and Dallas.

Fin and Feather lodge off 40 between the Tulsa turnoff and Arkasas has 9 original dome baskets last time I was out there. There were wired for lights at one time.

Doesn't MitchMac have 9 lighted dome baskets in his back yard????

Yes, Mitch has 9 lighted domes in his yard. The Mac Classic is played on them.

Western Hills Lodge and Lake Murray both had the Cone baskets and were a real challenge with MF's. I remember going to Western Hills right after I got married and playing that course with my wife. It will not be forgotten.

I bought the 18 hole course and took it all the back to Huntsville in a big truck. Those chains rattled all the way back. Almost made me crazy.

Vanessa's story is correct---as far as I know. I started about 1995....those who came before relate the same story, that the place they were in Myrtle Beach was damaged by Hugo (1989) and the baskets found their way to Earlewood about 1990. They are no longer lighted, of course, but you can see the holes where the wire ran through the pole.

We've since added double chains and deeper baskets. In the days of single chains, with the narrower target, you'd see quite a few putts pass through or glance off....and of course roll.

Perspective, of course, if everything. Earlewood has always been my home course---well, until building my own---and in my view, those baskets are normal and disccatchers are unnaturally wide!

P.S. Having such antique baskets presents a problem when considering expansion....or additional pin placements....or sweating that one of our massive trees will fall and crush one (we've had some close calls).

We've since added double chains and deeper baskets.

I thought those baskets looked different from the originals!

Who might I check with on the Lake Murray status? Stopping there on our way back from Milwaukee may be our best bet to see saucers, since we're already planning to stop in Amarillo on the return leg of the Tour de Rizbee.

Who might I check with on the Lake Murray status? Stopping there on our way back from Milwaukee may be our best bet to see saucers, since we're already planning to stop in Amarillo on the return leg of the Tour de Rizbee.



I'll ask a couple of guys in Ardmore this weekend when I am there and let you know. Lake Murray is just 10 miles from there. However, I am pretty sure they are still there.

The course is still there at Lake Murray, we have a group heading there Friday night to stay at the lodge and throw some disc at those saucres. I cant wait.

Libertyville, IL north of Chicago had them at one time but I think those are gone.



Libertyville no longer uses them.



If Libertyville had cone baskets, it was an awfully long time ago. When I was in graduate school at Northwestern in 1986-87, they had 18 Mach Ones. The course has since been reduced to 9 holes.

However, there was another North Shore course that had cone baskets. I think it was Highland Park. I hated them.

However, there was another North Shore course that had cone baskets. I think it was Highland Park. I hated them.

I think it was(is?) Highland Park, because I remember playing there about 10-12 years ago.

Just looked at the directory. It is Highland Park IL. Name of the park is Fink Park. I think some folks may have called these baskets The Saucers due to their resemblance to spaceships.

The course in Jackson TN. had some Saucer Golf targets, but now they have modern targets with a new course design.

We've since added double chains and deeper baskets.

I thought those baskets looked different from the originals!



The original trays on the original baskets at Oak Grove were much smaller than the trays of today. They were maybe 6" deep, (seemed like 4"), not as wide, (probably 24" instead of 26" like todays), and you could barely get an 80 mold in them. Also these targets had 10 chains instead of the 12 that became the standard for years shortly after.

I think the practice basket (bottom) at Morley is still the original, although it looks to have been repaired multiple times.

The switch to 12 chains must have been pretty early on, as I'm pretty sure that the baskets in Rockledge FL (circa 1978?) had twelve chains.

This may be the most informative and interesting thread I've read in months.

Thanks...I thought this stuff was pretty interesting...glad I started the thread.

Is Minneapolis (Bloomington) on your route? I think there might still be cones at Wildwood Park in Ottumwa, Iowa if you're on that route. Libertyville, IL north of Chicago had them at one time but I think those are gone. Maybe another park got them in the Chicago area?


The cones at Wildwood in Ottumwa have all been replaced. I think Tom Cremer, the course pro, has been known to drop one back in occasionally. I assume he has them all stashed somewhere?