This is the long tee for the new #18 at Winter Park. I wanted to throw in something exciting and challenging like this because we lost two of our downhill holes. What do you think?

LONG TEE
http://webpages.charter.net/berrybunch/Tee%20Pictures_files/image102.jpg

Closeup from long tee
http://webpages.charter.net/berrybunch/Tee%20Pictures_files/image104.jpg

SHORT TEE
http://webpages.charter.net/berrybunch/Tee%20Pictures_files/image106.jpg

Now that you've had a chance to look at it, much consideration did go into this hole, and there is a specific reason it was laid out this way. Under the assumption that a majority of players throw RHBH, we placed tee and pin at places that would allow a duffed throw to fade naturally, and require less distance to make it across. It's 300' diagonally across, but only about 140' from the long tee across the left side of the pond to the short tee, so if you can throw any type of drive a minimum of 140', you can make it across at some point. There is also plenty of room to lay up on a road that encircles the pond on all sides. Of course I know the psychological card comes in, so there is a note on the tee sign to write your name and number on your disc, the pond is drained every year to make snow, and we'll collect and return discs.

Want to see more of the new 18 hole course?
http://webpages.charter.net/berrybunch/Tee%20Pictures

look interesting! is the fence along the slope OB? i like the relative tightness of the area around the basket. still need a reasonably tight shot to birdie. and if you do decide to bail out to the left you still need to get the length correct to hit the strip between the pond and the trees. thats a nice touch.

btw, the strip also makes it easy for a lefty to play safe, cuz their shot will finish parallel to both the trouble spots (trees and pond). the biggest thing lefty needs to worry about is carrying the fence and making the slope beyond.

Looks very similar to Waco's Cameron East #6 (270'ish from the across-the-water tee).

I like these holes because they aren't very hard, but get into the heads of lots of players. (I'm a lefty so the water never bothers me. :) )

just got done browsing your course layout (and pictures) page. Well done! This looks like a fun course with some interesting shots. If I make it to Am worlds, I'll pay you a visit :)

hey, had a thought... what about thinning the trees behind the basket some? that way any righties who get tempted to crash the canopy and drop next to the basket just might find themsleves penetrating the tree line and having to deal with putting lines interrupted with trees. it might be possible to create a nice rough/bunker effect that would impact how the pin is attacked and toughen up the play around the pin

I love this approach to water holes. Let the thrower bite off as much as he thinks he can chew. Risk vs. Reward and all that.

I'd be a little concerned about the cattails lining the basket-side of the pond.....looks like throws that come up just a bit short might be a mess to get to.

those cattails are part of the risk :)

The only thing I think I would do differently is to make each tee play about 50 feet further back and move the short to where there is still a little bit of over-the-water action. I think that will take it from a 2.75 par to a real par 3 (assuming am/rec players shoot from the short pad and adv/pros from the long)

There is easily a 30' radius around the basket for a very safe landing zone. I played with many ideas and possible placements, but ultimately went this way to require an accurate throw. Rather than move the tee back and let people rip it out there where a 350'-400' throw would still land right on the green, players now need to throw an accurate 300' drive, plus or minus 20', to be sitting pretty. So, many may need to back off to avoid the dense trees, but not too much to land in the water. It's definitely good enough balance to make you think.

I've already been in the nasty thick woods, in the water, and right under the basket. And for a 910 rated tournament player, I think that makes this hole just about right.

Past the fence is not OB, but people will be throwing overhead above you for the downhill, 715' throw #15.

I have to admit I chose certain hole layouts based on my skill level. I like to be able to run at the basket. I am an average player - much better then the local joe on the course, but definitely no pro. If I throw very well, about the best throw I could on each holes, most of them lend to a fairly easy deuce. But we all know the best throw every time is far from reality, so most holes are good 3's. Then, some have some extra distance, extra tightness, or considerable rough (the wooded holes are easier to recover from the rough than the wood lined open fairways) that push out the occasional 4s and maybe 5s if you have two bad shots. Most greens are tight on one side or another, which to me introduces the greatest risk/reward of gunning for the putt when it may be a horrible comeback if missed.

Thanks for the comments, we just want to see the players out there enjoying what is more that your typical city park course.

Hey guys, there are PDGA course design guidelines that cover this.

Course Design Guidelines for PDGA Skill Levels & Divisions (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2004/PDGAGuides2004.pdf)

Please note the following:

Players should ideally be given the option to throw around
water. However, if the terrain forces a throw across water,
the far side of the water should be no more than x feet
(effective length) from the tee/mark.

The table below shows the distance x for different skill levels.

<table border="2"><tr><th colspan=1> Tees </th><th> Distance (feet) </th><th> </th></tr>
<tr><td> Gold tees: Over 964 rating </td><td> 250 </td><td> </td></tr>
<tr><td> Blue tees: Over 924 rating </td><td> 225 </td><td> </td></tr>
<tr><td> White tees: Over 874 rating </td><td> 200 </td><td> </td></tr>
<tr><td> Red tees: Under 875 rating </td><td> 170 </td><td> </td></tr>
</table>

That "guideline" doesn't really apply. This BLUE tee has the option to throw around the water in any direction. The throw across the water also varies from 140' to about 325' depending on what route you take. So it's all good, every skill level can throw from this tee and the guideline will be met.

i agree with superberry that the hole offers the choices. one could play a short throw across in front of the red tee, then down the lane, or go parallel to the pond off the tee then jump across on second shot. either way, the water crossing distance is appropriate for all levels. just a question of how much ya need the birdie and how low yer hanging that day :)

Looking at the pictures of the entire course, I would have to say this would be one of the most enjoyable courses I've seen. It is extremely well-designed in the sense that I (as an amateur) can look from the pro tees and think "No way am I able to make that shot." Yet at the same time I can look from the am tees and think "Well, this is a fun, interesting hole, and I probably won't do too poorly from here."

You have taken the concept that a tough enough course with properly placed tees can be enjoyable for any player and applied it very well for this course.

Thanks! That is EXACTLY what I was going for.

The long tees are in to challenge most players with shot selection, tight routes, and tricky greens to make them think and concentrate on the right drive and carefully placed upshots.

But the short tees provide a good view of the basket with a definite route, if not two routes. The locals around here are VERY new to the sport and need to be able to still have a good time, especially given the challenging terrain.

I really appreciate that comment, even if it was just after looking at the pictures. Once you get out on the hill, the terrain brings forth a whole new dimension.

on a side note - how does that teepad design work when wet? I'm torn between assuming that the texture will provide traction and assuming that the texture will limit surface area contact with my shoes and actually take away from traction... not a criticism, just an honest question

The pads composed of what is called "crusher dust". It is very finely ground rock, and around here there is a lot of limestone so you almost have the makings for concrete. They are not likegravel at all. They are like limestone walking trails that many parks have installed (in fact, this material is used on a state trail that spans for miles acorss old railroad right-of-way).

They are soft when we first lay them down. This lends to lots of lumpiness due to approaches and planting your feet. It's easy to scrape your foot across them and even them out though. After a good downpour (like we just had) the fine particles settle out and the tees level out and firm up but are still easily disturbed with a firm foot plant. You scrape some more in the hole and pat it down. After they sit covered with snow all winter is when they get really good. They comopact down verty nicely. And at first feel are almost as hard as concrete and are not easily disturbed. But they are still somewhat spongy (comparable bounce to the recycled tire material used on kids playgrounds) which allows them to still conform to your shoes. So, there are no slips or hydroplaning like on concrete pads.

With volunteers, my plan is to lay a fresh 2-3" coat down on the tees before winter snow, so that it will settle nicely over the winter. Right now about 1/3 of the tees are nice and compact because they went in last August. All the others are brand new this June, and it's only rained once.

The design worked exactly as intended today. I wound up for a release and slipped a little as my dog darted after my feet. Well, the thow didn't have enough power and was at too much of a hyzer angle, so it faded hard but cleared the water, about 3/4 of the way down the Short Fairway, about 225' across the water from the Long Tee I was on. Then I threw my Buzzz really well and it plunked right under the basket.

Also, I aced #7 from the short tee (I usually take a drive from each short tee when playing alone). It was special because it was with the Roc I salvaged from my dad's bag after he died.

BONUS!!!

Too cool.

I would consider making the fence OB for safety if it is in the landing area of the downhill shots and to increase the mental challenge from the.

The landing zone on the previous hole #15 shouldn't be anywhere near #18, and you can see really well from on top of 15. If the fence were also OB there would be too many OB rules to enforce - I have roads on 3 holes, a parking lot on 1 hole, ponds on 4 holes, and a creek on 3 holes (4 if you get a HORRIBLE roll). Plus a lot of the rough is very thick and difficult to recover from. I don't want to be too sadistic.

I wish I had more vounteers, I'd lay out a third set of pads for the Gold tees.

If a disc is up against the fence, how do they get a stance on the line of play or is it easy to go on the other side of the fence to take your shot? Otherwise, that's why you make a fence and across OB so players can get the 1m relief for a stance.

go around the end of the fence near the trees and then see if you have a turbo putt from directly behind the fence. good test for those unfortunate enuf to place their shot right on the fence. we say we want bunkers and challenges - here is one, dont water it down. :)

It's easy to get behind the fence, and it's flexible too. I may take it down because it actually helps by stopping the discs that people rip over the water from carrying into the longer grass and further from the basket. You shouldn't be allowed to rip it on an 'accurate' green and be saved by a fence. I'd say it's between 35-50' from the fence to the basket.