I have a ponderance...I was just checking some tourney entries and also thinking about some friends I know...

I know of people with 960 ratings that play am, 912's that play intermediate, 910's that play pro...some step up, some down...some wanna play, some change diviisons because they are out classed by people playing in arguably inappropriate divisions...so I was curious...

Do you think a certain or any certain rating should mandate or prevent playing in a division? Above or below what? I am sure that this has been beat to death but i was curious...

Thanks! Please keep 'em coming :D

Still rollin~ Thanks! Some interesting results...like to see alot more n...

is this regardless of age?

Good question...didn't really think of age when I asked...

The 1000 player rating was modeled after a ball golf scratch player. The definition of "scratch" in golf comes from the cut-line to make match play in the U.S. Amateur, basically the top of the amateur players.

I believe our 1000 rating comes from the cash line in open for pro worlds. Here's a concept: if you're not cashing in worlds, you're not a "pro".

For the last three pro worlds the cash cut line in open has averaged round ratings of 985, 977, and 979 for '06, '05, '04 respectively.

The advanced men's winner of the last three worlds averaged round ratings of 985, 994, 994 for the same years.

I think it's insane to suggest that someone should be bumped with a player rating that won't get them into the cash at pro worlds. That's a sure recipe for getting players that are at the top of the amateur game to quit playing tournaments all together.

I do agree with those that say it's tough for a 915 rated player to compete with a 980 rated advanced player. I'd definitely like to see that 915 bump # increased to 930 or 940, with the bottom part of intermediate sliding back into rec.

The predominant mentality in the sport is to rocket to pro as fast as possible with intense peer pressure to "move up - move up - move up". I think this is a shell game that is counter-productive for the long-term growth of real sponsorship for our true pros.

In order for our sport to be a truly attractive place for sponsors to dump money, we need to have a base of players that rarely play tournaments that is HUGE. The next step on the pyramid is the recreational tournament players, int., adv. each step a bit smaller than the previous, and finally the smallest group of all the pros. The pro designation should be sought after and earned.

There's way too much pressure for players to "move up". It's fine if 930 rated players want to "sponsor" the open division by donating their entry fees, but when I hear them tell people at the park that they're a "pro", it's a huge joke. There's a 890 rated "pro" here in Florida and when people are introduced to the sport and see guys like that throw they think that all we're about is throwing frisbees in the park. They have no idea that we've got talented athletes that train and can do amazing things with discs and perform under pressure.

That is some pretty interesting and well thought out commentary there Denny. I am going to have to think on that a bit. Some I disgree with...then after thinking about it agree with...then...hmmm LOL

Let me toss that around in the hopper a bit...

PS The title of the thread was meant to rile a bit and market the thread not necessarily my position...

I agree with Denny. I am a 968 rated ADV player and I won't really feel like a pro until my rating is close to 1000. There are too many great players down here for me to entertain pipe dreams of how great I am. I know exactly where I stand. If I were to jump to pro I would have to play above my rating every round to win my money back. Since I don't have a lot of extra $ lying around, I cannot accept the odds and pressure of having to play at my best to simply win last cash. I am still improving, and I know at some point I will have to make the jump and pay my dues, but no pros are going to talk me into it. I will make the decision based on what's best for me--economically and competetively.

I, for the most part, also agree with Denny. I do think we need to protect beginner divisions from high rated players that come in and walk away with everything, on the other hand, forcing a player to move from an amateur status to an open status will result in watering down the open ranks. Quite often it will also result in a player growing disheartened with the game and not playing tournaments anymore.

Maybe we are approaching this all wrong, what we should be doing is saying that you can only play on the open divisions if your ratings is ABOVE a certain amount. Not to compare to ball golf, but you must play at a certain level to be considered an Open player. For everything else you are either an amateur player (by the way, ball golf does payout amateurs in merchandise) or semi-pro.

no one should ever be forced to play pro.

Bobby Jones is one of the 10 greatest golfers of all time and never turned professional.

If you know the history of ball golf, amateurs were much higher status than pros up until the 60s when TV and sponsor money started coming in. Amateurs usually came from wealthy families. They didn't need to play for money like Bobby Jones. I believe if Bobby entered the golf scene in the 70s, he would have become a pro.

Before the 60, pros were lower level economic status and it was considered unseemly to play for money in tournaments. They were almost like "horses" for the wealthy to wager on. That's why handicaps came about in the early 1900s. It helped wagering.

I'm agreeing that our ams should not be required to turn pro. On the other hand, most of our pros are ams who just play for money, not to make a living. That changes the rationale for not forcing ams to turn pro to "what point should we force our ams to accept money and be called pros?" And, "At what point (rating) do they really become pros as in conventional sports?"

I think we need some rigorous benchmarks to be met before players can play Pro; instead of "player's choice," it should be "player permitted"; those should include skill, behavior, knowledge of the rules, and various victories - in some combination.

knowledge of the rules



It still amazes me, even in the open division, how many people ask me what I'm doing when I'm not OB and take a meter off the line.

I don't understand the pros rated<955 playing am rule. They can play am if its a B tier or Lower but have to play pro in the A tiers.

If you are playing 955 golf you have a chance to cash in some local C/B tiers in open, however you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of cashing at a big event.

The rule seems backwards to me and keep people from stepping up from adv to open.

There's no restriction on pros under 955 playing in Advanced at A-tiers, just Majors.

ok, makes more sense.

I don't understand the pros rated<955 playing am rule. They can play am if its a B tier or Lower but have to play pro in the A tiers.

If you are playing 955 golf you have a chance to cash in some local C/B tiers in open, however you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of cashing at a big event.

The rule seems backwards to me and keep people from stepping up from adv to open.


I agree that that rule's backwards, period.

Let am's play up and donate as they wish, put a little "a" by their name in the standings, pay them in funny money if they cash, and let them retain their am-status to play in majors or any other event as desired.

With the recent amnesty and the petition process in place, coupled with am's being able to win merch in pro divisions, I'd see no need for that rule in the future.

Bring back am's being able to receive merch for cashing in a pro division!

Currently there are two ratings that prevent amateur men from playing in certain divisions. 875 and higher cannot play Recreational. 915 and higher cannot play Intermediate.

I'm not sure whether some of the answers to your poll are demonstrating ignorance of the rule or whether those people are advocating for different ratings breaks.

Meanwhile, the ratings range for Advanced is now about 81 points wide. In other words, a player who must play advanced because of his rating might have to "compete" against a player who has 80 rating points on him. That would be like pitting me against Matt Orum or Cale Leiviska. Moreover, those players aren't just hanging out in Advanced for one more Worlds. A lot of them are not signed up for Worlds and have been playing advanced this year at their local tournaments.

If the PDGA does anything sensible about this, like adjusting the ratings brackets up a little for each division, I'll be all for that, even if it moves me a little closer to the bottom of advanced.

The Board approved the Competition Committee proposal for next year with one clarification still remaining pertaining to D-tiers. The proposed changes will soon be made available for members to review. Any tweaks as a result of feedback will be made by the Fall Summit meeting for final approval for the 2008 season. I think you'll see some of the issues addressed in the proposed changes.

Mando bumps should go into place on 980 and higher moving to the Open division.

975-980 golfer can cash in Open events, depending on the strength of the field. If you put everything onto Pro Worlds, what about the people that have a bad week? Or, what about the local hometowners that go out and play well above thier average because they know the courses?

Your never going to stop bagging until the PDGA allows am players to step up into Open and win merch. Even that wont end it, as there will always be someone without the extra money to play Open, or the high end Advanced player will see everyone else playing Open and look at it like an easy win.

Another thing, it seems as though everyone at every tourney, every year " is holding out for Am Worlds."

Its a joke, and IMO, until mando bumps are put into place it will never change. If an Am player hits the mando and wont play anymore, it shows his true motives. Hes out there to try to dominate inferior competition.

Move up bagger, and go practice.

Its a joke, and IMO, until mando bumps are put into place it will never change. If an Am player hits the mando and wont play anymore, it shows his true motives. Hes out there to try to dominate inferior competition.

Move up bagger, and go practice.



Don't paint all of us with that brush...

I would quit if I was forced to play Open under that scenario. My motivation is NOT winning stuff or dominating inferior competition (which due to my life is not likely anymore). DG is my hobby, not my vocation. If I wanted to make it my second job I would get out, practice, ignore my family, etc. Instead, I choose to play because it's fun and it's enough competition to feed the athlete still in me.

I'm very vocal about tourney's offering Trophy-Only for all divisions because there are those of us who don't care about all the plastic. Unfortunately, TD's don't make enough money off of people like me so they don't offer it or if they do it's only for Open.

A TD can always make as much money on trophy-only as he does on full fee. So that's not really the reason. If the entry fee is $40 and the TD is spending $20 of that per player on prizes and $20 on everything else, he can make as much money simply by subtracting from the full entry fee the amount per player that he is spending on prizes.

I think these are the reasons why a TD does not offer trophy-only:

1. He doesn't need to, to fill up his tournament, so why bother?
2. He has no idea what his per player costs are or how to figure out that stuff.
3. It is hard enough to do the accounting for the tournament without to deal with different entry fees for the same division.
4. This is the way we have always done it and it works fine.
5. What? Huh?

At the Illinois Open Series we know how to figure it out and yet we don't make as much on our trophy-only players as we do on our full fee players.

Its a joke, and IMO, until mando bumps are put into place it will never change. If an Am player hits the mando and wont play anymore, it shows his true motives. Hes out there to try to dominate inferior competition.

Move up bagger, and go practice.



It is a money issue. I am still playing intermediate but am on the cusp of advanced. When I move up to Adv. (after my state tour is done), I will be forced to play in 1 - 2 fewer tournaments a year due to the increased cost for advanced. I budget an amount for tournaments, and stick by that.

Moving from advanced to open would be an even bigger jump. There is the added benefit of possibly winning your money back, but there is a better chance you won't (assuming you just moved up).

I don't have the time to practice every day with family, job, and school. I would love to play every day but I can't, so I don't anticipate I will ever be at a pro level - much less competitive. But the extra $5 to $10 per tournament I will be spending next year will lower my tournament participation.

Its a joke, and IMO, until mando bumps are put into place it will never change. If an Am player hits the mando and wont play anymore, it shows his true motives. Hes out there to try to dominate inferior competition.

Move up bagger, and go practice.



It is a money issue. I am still playing intermediate but am on the cusp of advanced. When I move up to Adv. (after my state tour is done), I will be forced to play in 1 - 2 fewer tournaments a year due to the increased cost for advanced. I budget an amount for tournaments, and stick by that.

Moving from advanced to open would be an even bigger jump. There is the added benefit of possibly winning your money back, but there is a better chance you won't (assuming you just moved up).

I don't have the time to practice every day with family, job, and school. I would love to play every day but I can't, so I don't anticipate I will ever be at a pro level - much less competitive. But the extra $5 to $10 per tournament I will be spending next year will lower my tournament participation.




Tourneys are only going to cost more in the future. as the PDGA forces player packages on people the payouts get smaller and smaller. Small payouts dont bring people back to events unless the scene or courses are fantastic. A great example would be Peoria. It went from a SuperTour to nothing. The event doesnt exist anymore. The payouts for Ams there sucked, but the courses kept bringing people back...for awhile. Pros always loved Peoria, both for the courses and the payouts, but as far as the Ams go, you wont meet many that we ever happy with thier payout.

I run events and put the players packages at cost. This means pulling out less money from the payout to the Am divisions than I have to. I could just take 10$, give you a 5$ disc ( wholesale, $10 retail ) and put the other 5$ into the store, but that doesnt help me move product which is my goal, and IMO, as an removed Advanced bagger, Im looking for payouts. Payouts were a big factor in if or not I would return, and as I dont hit the player packages as hard the payout goes deeper and stays thick.

Im only in it for the payout which is why I play Open. If I win and you want the trophy, Ill sell it to you in the parking lot. Im a Pro player ( some days ) and Im there for the money. Most high end Advanced players dont think much different, they just arent there for cash, they are there for the plastic payout. As I was once the same way, I try to run the events that way also. I stay within the guidlines I agree to when sanctioning an event, but manipulate the numbers somewhat as Im also handling the payout and want to move as much product as I can through it.

* Yes, I would still profit by keeping the extra 5$, but that extra 5$ adds up and shows up in the payouts. A fat payout helps word of mouth and insures your going to get good attendance the following year.

So we are all in agreement then? ;) LOL...

Payout, schmayout. As an advanced player that occasionally gets to play a tournament, I want to maximize my experience and feel that I'm getting a good value for my dollar.

I want to play real golf (not deuce or die) on great courses. I want something sweet in my players package. It doesn't have to be a lot of stuff with a high $ value, just no junk. I want the event to start ON TIME! I want to have a really good lunch served every day of the event. I'm a big boy and I like to eat and it tweaks me hard to get a tiny little sandwich and bag of crappy potato chips and call that a meal. I want to have OB's marked well and a easy to read course legend. I want drinking water throughout the course. I want to play in a FOURSOME! I want a hotdog and a hamburger - Spaulding you'lll get nothing and like it . . . .

Bottom line: I don't give a rat's behind about the payout as long as I feel I've gotten my money's worth for the event itself. I always try to play my best and enjoy beating as many people as I can, but it's really all about getting to play golf with a lot of other people under ideal conditions and feeling pampered a little.

Those are all great things, and if your going to run some tourneys, or do already, let me know and Ill try to make one. All those things would help the tournament experiance. They also cost money.

Food: Yeah, hot dogs are pretty do-able, but its tough to prepare for who knows how many attendees. Thats alot of money to budget and possibly lose. What are you going to do with an extra 20-40 burgers? I guess if your footing the bill, you could save them and eat them, but if your taking money out of an entry for food and over buy or under buy, that could create a problem. You could just have someone come in and cook for you and sell thier food, like many tourneys Ive been to, but whats the problem offering that or asking people to drive into town to support local business' that contributed to the event?

Well marked OBs can take paint to get that done, or rope, neither of which is cheap and that money has to come from somewhere. Im not sure about you, but I vend at them and make money, but still dont like to know that Im putting a bunch of money into the event for things like those discussed above. I do agree though, it can help the tournament experiance and thats great, but sometimes it isnt do-able. I guess if your willing to shovel a bunch of your own cash into the event, anythings possible. I just dont have that money.

Im glad your not concerned about a payout, and hope everyone thinks like you do, Denny. That means you could come here, get a decent player package ( our packages never suck. that you can ask around about ) and if you happen to cash, youll be suprised at the size of your payout vs other events larger than ours...that will make me happy.

I guess if your willing to shovel a bunch of your own cash into the event, anythings possible. I just dont have that money.


I'm not expecting the club/TD to sponsor the lunch. Whether it's an add-on price or like you said, have someone in park selling food. The important part is that I'd much prefer to spend 15 minutes eating, 15 minutes chilling, and still have 20 minutes to walk, stretch, putt or whatever I need to do to get ready for the second round without feeling rushed going somewhere else for lunch.

As far as planning for lunches without getting burned - it's just another reason to not have day-of-event registrations. There's plenty to do the morning of an event and it's hard enough to start on time without them. With all that goes into planning, promoting, and running an event I think it's quite reasonable for TD's that choose to do so to request that players make a commitment to attend in advance.

. . . what the heck was the topic again, more threadrift . . .

anything wrong with packing a cooler?

anything wrong with packing a cooler?


nope, those are just the things that i look for in a tournament. i realize other folks have different ideas on what matters. just wanted to point out that the payout isn't the be-all and end-all for all players.

footnote: i used to play the ann arbor city men's golf championship. it's a fantastic event and a great value for the money. the last time i played it was $80 for three days of golf. the entry fee also included a coupon for 50% of greens fees for a practice round, a sleeve of balls, a towel, and a great buffet for the awards lunch on sunday. that all took place on a course that cost $30 per round at the time and was worth $50. the format was two rounds and then the field was flighted into about 11 flights so that everyone was within four strokes of the lead of their flight going into the final round on sunday. each flight winner received a trophy. no golf bags, drivers, wedges, putters, headcovers, golf balls, lessons, just trophies and the players love it. they play for the love of the game and the comraderie.

I think we need some rigorous benchmarks to be met before players can play Pro; instead of "player's choice," it should be "player permitted"; those should include skill, behavior, knowledge of the rules, and various victories - in some combination.


QFE.
Even as a Noob to tournaments it's kind of shocking to see some of the behaviour I have already seen.
respect for when the TD is talking,staying to see all the winners instead of just getting your winnings and leaving,treating the casual players on the course the same day of the tournament with disdain instead of inviting them to come out to a tournament and join the fun.
On the flip side I have been lucky enough to group with some really cool people.from rec to open players that have been respectful,mindful of others,and generally helpfull to me and others.

we hold the future of this sport in our hands.

I am moving to play Open my next tournament, even though I feel I am still inconsistant, for a number of reasons.

The payout is getting worse and worse for big events. More and more TD's are pushing huge players packs in exchange for a crappy, flat payout. When I play in a tournament, I want to be rewarded for playing well, not for showing up.

I understand some people do not play for payout. Well, I want to. I love playing casual rounds with other people and lightening up on the intensity for a while. But when I'm paying $50 or so as a college student, I do not want that to go to waste. Tournaments are where I try to get merchandise to sell for extra money for the next tournament or what-not.

And the reason those ball golf events have all those nice perks is the sponsorship. Disc golf can't match that kind of money.

For a second I saw the thread title and figured it would be about Ziggy...

What is up with the baggers these days? I am getting sick of seeing players competing in events that they don't belong in in my opinion.... The guy Mark Roberts who is leading the Advanced Masters at Am worlds by a stroke going into the semi-finals was playing pro masters and open events and cashed less than a year ago! His rating has been over 960 for more than a year and is 967. I thought that your rating had to be lower than 955 to reclaim am status or play in a major event? Regardless, these guys should be leaving the Am events to the Am players. If cash and go pro, why come back so soon when you are doing fairly well??.... PS the guy in a tie for 2nd place has the same history??? Bagger invation at worlds, news at 11:00

They either took the Amnesty and went back because they wanted to have more fun and were no longer interested in playing Open or Open Masters anymore.......Or they petitioned the PDGA to get their Amateur status back and it was granted to them which in these cases I dont believe that is the case because from what I have heard its pretty tought get petition for your AM status and have it be granted to you.........But if they moved down to have more fun then who cares!!! Ill tell you one thing though in any competitive part of the country a 967 rating is doing NOTHING for you in the Open division but sending you home empty handed!!! Oh and if your under 955 you can play Open and Advanced while accepting cash but your not allowed to compete in Majors so thats not the case either.

I see what you are saying, but why didn't they play advanced then? Why steal the thunder from the old guys who are still truly ams and put your so called crummy 960ish :( rating up against some realistic competition? It's not surprising that these two former open players are in 1st and 2nd in the old farts division... Seems like bagging to me. :confused:

Oh I never said it wasnt bagging!!! But if they move up they really arent doing ANYTHING anyway so they might as well stay down and have fun with more competition you know........I mean these guys arent in it for the money cuz if they were they would be flat broke........If they want to bag it up and get an AM World Championship then let them.......You would be hard pressed to find an AM Worlds Champ that WASNT a bagger!!! And im not just talking about this year im talking about for the past Decade!!!

There is no rating cap on Advanced Masters. Maybe there should be, but in the meantime if a guy's over 40 and has am status and wants to play Advanced Masters then I fully support them in doing so.

I'm planning on playing Advanced Masters at worlds in KC in '09 unless my rating climbs above 970. In that case I'll play Pro Masters. I know if I play A.M. with a rating around 960 I'll get called "bagger" by some, but the bottom line is it's my choice to make and nobody else's.

Testament to the reason to revamp the divisional system. Competition shouldn't be about player choice - it should be about skill level, period.

Testament to the reason to revamp the divisional system. Competition shouldn't be about player choice - it should be about skill level, period.


I've posted before that I'd rather see ratings-based divisions for everyone except open men and open women. I'd love to be able to compete head-to-head with legendary pro grandmasters and the top pro women. I don't know if they'd like such a situation or not.

I think what's best for the sport, though, is to have a divisional structure that attracts and retains the greatest number of competitive disc golfers. I think what we have gives TD's the options to create events that they feel will sell in the tournament marketplace. I don't think we should restrict their options. Maybe some divisions like pro and advanced masters should have ratings caps.

And why should Open men and women be excluded?
Competition in our sport has become about attitude. People say things like "I'd like to compete agains such and such" excluding some groups, including others. Largely their attitudes only include the groups where they think they have a chance of winning. And we as an organization - have granted them the latitude to not only think that way - but demand from event organizers AS A RIGHT - the offering of multiple (non skill based) categories for so called "competition". In doing so - any legitimacy to titles offered is sacrificed - all in the name of "customer service".

Instead of clamoring for choice as a means to "keep people happy" (fearing all the while if you take a choice away - that a player will abandon us) - we need to establish a legitimate competitive structure. One based on skill - period. Because what we have now is anything but that.

And why should Open men and women be excluded?



Well, the only difference under a pure ratings-based system would be that pro men and women wouldn't have caps.

Craig, just to clarify, you're not suggesting that we do away with all female divisions are you? Just age-based divisions? Should there be any amateur divisions? Maybe the PDGA should be only for "professionals" and only offer one division, except for once a year running am-worlds.

The probable result? The SNDG model would get replicated in regions across the country. The PDGA would lose 70% of it's funding. (Sorry, Dr. John, but due to recent decreases in revenue we're going to have to let you go.)

You can't force "a legitimate competitive structure" by legislating away TD options any more than you can stop drug use or abortions through prohibition. In all three cases, the prohibition creates a blackmarket with, arguably worse consequenses.

Sorry Denny, gotta call BS on the whole fear monger attitude over potential change. Your whole defense of a broken system relies on an ASSumption that adopting an actual FAIR means of competing in sanctioned events will drive away the previously entitled groups participating currently.
Not only is that an unhealthy attitude for the potential growth of the sport - it is essentially entrenchment in the status quo for the sake of it- nothing more.
No I am not suggesting that gender based divisions be done away with - never said anything remotely close to that.
As far as "forcing", or "legislating" TD options - that's basically what the function of the organization is - is to offer sanctioning for events conforming to a set of standards. Changing those standards has occurred on multiple occasions throughout the history of the organization - it's nothing new. So to suggest that the organization would suffer irreparable damage if it exerted its legislative branch is somehow counterintuitive to me. I thought the organization was supposed to be interested in promoting fair competition for all players. As it is now, it seems more interested in serving "special interest groups" as a priority over the whole. Hmmm, sounds sorta like congress..........that can't be good!

Craig, I'd be worried if more than a handful of people shared your views. Meanwhile, the rest of us will keep enjoying our illegitimate competition.

I'm sure you will. Fear change - it must be evil. The sun revolves around the flat earth after all.

OK-I started this thread to get a bit of a gauge of what was out there as far as opinions...I had mine but they were kinda weak and wondering. I just got back from Worlds and had an AMAZING time and met lotsa great new friends. Allen-it was a pleasure playing a round with ya....

So-I shot a +12 for the week on my 1st travelling tourney. Started off with a 50 at dineen the first day-LOL...boy did that give me some false confidence going into BD :eek: :D

So-with all the wouldacouldashouldas and a few chardonays sitting here at ohare, I can count about 20 strokes that I could have been better-yeah-so could everyone, but I look at my weak game and think that alot of really easy misses would have put me in the mid top 20's. I don't deserve that and maybe when my gme gets a bit better I could hang with most a bit above that. i aint there yet and i welcome the higher rate players to kick my *****-i learned a lot this week. Allen-you flip turbo was em Chump's new favorite and BD on Saturday's rec round.

Any who-to cast my own vote...I think that you should HAVE to play adv over 900-I dropped my earlier thought of 915...and now feel that there should be qulifying criteria to play pro. Don't think that I will ever be there but I enjoy and welcome the competition in advanced masters.

So-when I look at pro-I would think that if you don't have a 975 plus, come on down and school me. Until-aspire to that level, cuz we need to raise the bar. My thoughts anyways...Milwaukee kicked *****...

There is no rating cap on Advanced Masters. Maybe there should be, but in the meantime if a guy's over 40 and has am status and wants to play Advanced Masters then I fully support them in doing so.

I'm planning on playing Advanced Masters at worlds in KC in '09 unless my rating climbs above 970. In that case I'll play Pro Masters. I know if I play A.M. with a rating around 960 I'll get called "bagger" by some, but the bottom line is it's my choice to make and nobody else's.



Surprise, surprise, the Pro masters player who went back to Am Masters has now won am worlds!
Question: is he going to tradtionaly go Pro again now that he has won a major Am event?

Surprise, surprise, the Pro masters player who went back to Am Masters has now won am worlds!

Question: is he going to tradtionaly go Pro again now that he has won a major Am event?



:eek: :o:D:p

Uh . . . the pro master player that went back to am that beat a herd of other pro masters players that went back to am may be a little more accurate . . . .

Surprise, surprise, the Pro masters player who went back to Am Masters has now won am worlds!
Question: is he going to tradtionaly go Pro again now that he has won a major Am event?


"Pro" record for Mark Roberts 10/32 events cashed in. Average of the times cashed is $101 Not exactly earning a living.

The PDGA made a wise choice to allow amateur players like Mark to regain their proper status. Mark made his rightful choice to play in advanced masters. He fought hard and won. I find it sad that instead of congratulations, the man gets shunned on the board.

The problem isn't that a 967 rated player is in the advanced masters division, the problem is that 900 rated players cry "bagger" because they can't compete in advanced when they'd fit right in competitively in intermediate.

I could make the decision to play up in open and not compete, but you'll never hear me crying that Kenny and John E. should be bumped up to a new super-gold division so I don't have to play against them.

the pdga made a wise choice in allowing them to move back, along with an unwise choice in making them eligible for majors.

while cashing 10/32 times with 3 victories is not making a living- it is not being non-competitive either.

I agree that if someone wins an event like worlds they deserve congrats.... So, congrats to awesome disc golfing and the win! I do not know the winner and should therefore apologize if there is any mis-understanding as to my intentions here. I am not out to take away from the great accomplishment that is made when someone wins a world competition.

However, this is a discussion board, and not only that, this a thread regarding sand-bagging (see definition below)

Sandbagging:
To downplay or misrepresent one's ability in a game or activity.

The issue for me in this situation is level of experience. Someone who spent a few years playing against pro level players has way more "tournament head experience" than someone who has played primarily with Ams. When I play at home and compete againt the weekend warriors Rec type players, I walk in knowing I can beat those guys and can play with way more confidence and calmness because I play in tournaments and practice. These Rec players only play once or twice a month at the weekly.

I see this extra experience as an unfair advantage and therfore see as a related topic for this thread. A 233 point swing from round 2 to round 3 is pretty awesome! Not many showed that kind ability to make a come back. I think experience has everything to do with it.

Surprise, surprise, the Pro masters player who went back to Am Masters has now won am worlds!
Question: is he going to tradtionaly go Pro again now that he has won a major Am event?


"Pro" record for Mark Roberts 10/32 events cashed in. Average of the times cashed is $101 Not exactly earning a living.

The PDGA made a wise choice to allow amateur players like Mark to regain their proper status. Mark made his rightful choice to play in advanced masters. He fought hard and won. I find it sad that instead of congratulations, the man gets shunned on the board.

The problem isn't that a 967 rated player is in the advanced masters division, the problem is that 900 rated players cry "bagger" because they can't compete in advanced when they'd fit right in competitively in intermediate.

I could make the decision to play up in open and not compete, but you'll never hear me crying that Kenny and John E. should be bumped up to a new super-gold division so I don't have to play against them.




I had the pleasure of playing with Mark in doubles and look at his first two rounds...48 then a 62. I went 50-65...I couldn't battle back-he obviously did and I give him huge kudos for it and told him so afterwards. I didn't start the thread to bich but because I was curious before heading out to my first major-big eye opener for sure...Thanks for all of the discussion :)

No one is shunning the man.... No doubt he played his heart out and deserves kudos... Again congrats

Senior, you are right when you say that some players are better prepared than others, but its not because of a few who have accepted cash returning to am status. Rather, you'll find that most everyone one who competes at the highest Am levels - everyone who is serious about preparing to try to win at Worlds - has often "played up" and competed in the Open division, or Pro Masters, or whatever the appropriate equivalent is for their gender and age group, many many times. They even "cash", although they don't accept money. Thus, they have the kind of experience that you call unfair, even though they've not relinquished "am" status. This is not an advantage uniquely enjoyed by former pro-status players!

"At what point (rating) do they really become pros as in conventional sports?"



When they choose to become pro. Rating may play a factor in the player's choice, but it is still his choice in all sports that I'm aware of.

Chap

Testament to the reason to revamp the divisional system. Competition shouldn't be about player choice - it should be about skill level, period.



Name one other sport where skill level forces a player to become pro. I'm not saying there isn't one, but if there is, I'd be interested to know what it is.

Chap

� our governing body should now consider something I proposed a long time ago � the real deal � an �Amateur World Championships� Event �
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� Players� desire seems to be there �
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� Attendance would be there �
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� for about 81 other reasons that I won�t delve into here �n� now ;
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� this Sport and Players deserve it ...
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... you likin' the numbers now ?
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... you wanna see 'em grow exponentially ?
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... from the "grass-roots" level ?
.
.
... do it ...
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.
� so , annually there would be
> Pro World Championships
> Advanced World Championships
> Amateur World Championships
.
.
.
.
... it would work ... :cool:

... Chuck ?
.
... Gentry ?
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... New Guy ?
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... you listening ? .
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... ponder-the-possibilities ...

Testament to the reason to revamp the divisional system. Competition shouldn't be about player choice - it should be about skill level, period.



Name one other sport where skill level forces a player to become pro. I'm not saying there isn't one, but if there is, I'd be interested to know what it is.

Chap



Name another sport where players compete at the same venue, at the same time, with overlapping results, where the "lower" rated, or "protected" category is rewarded more than the higher one.

I've said this before about a kajillion times - the labels we use (am vs pro) do not serve us well. They do not reflect reality, nor do they support our chosen "separation" by category. So arguing that such and such with a 950 rating is "not a pro" holds no water. The guy who just won Am Masters and is now a "World Champion" was able to compete and cash 1/3 of the time at the so called "pro" level - yet we granted him a world title through an amnesty for what reason?

The PDGA divisional system has nothing to do with fair competition - and everything to do with making everybody a winner. To me - this supports the really unhealthy attitude of "second place is the first loser". If I can't have a chance at first place - I won't play. So much for the spirit of the game :(

"yet we granted him a world title through an amnesty for what reason?"

well, because the dues were about to be raised and they were afraid the increase would scare away some lower ranked pros.

Until you've spoken with Mark, I wouldn't be making such rash comments about him. He has done a lot for the sport in the State of Michigan and I don't believe he'd ever do something like this for glory or profit. I cannot speak for him, so I will not attempt to justify why he took amnesty, but he was able to convince me (someone he regularly knocks out of cashing in MA-1) that it was for the right reasons.

i'm not making any comment about anyone at all, just explaining the reasoning behind the amnesty program

i'm not making any comment about anyone at all, just explaining the reasoning behind the amnesty program

Sorry, wasn't directed at you. You were the unfortunate soul at the end of the list.

Testament to the reason to revamp the divisional system. Competition shouldn't be about player choice - it should be about skill level, period.



Name one other sport where skill level forces a player to become pro. I'm not saying there isn't one, but if there is, I'd be interested to know what it is.

Chap



Name another sport where players compete at the same venue, at the same time, with overlapping results, where the "lower" rated, or "protected" category is rewarded more than the higher one.



I'll answer your question below, please answer mine :)

You're right, in larger sports, there wouldn't be overlapping results, because there would be separate tournaments at different venues for both. You only need to look at the U.S. Amateur, PGA Tour, and Champions Tour in ball golf to see that. And yes, the winner of a Champions Tour event (the protected division) makes a lot more than he could earn in a regular PGA Tour event (the tougher division). And if you're talking about the side bets, I've already gone on record opposing those, unless all age groups have a shot at them, and still I don't like them.
When our sport grows a bit more, we're probably going to have a separate Open Worlds and Masters/Senior Worlds. This is already happening with the various National Championships. Our current model is out of whack, because basically we don't have enough players to support sponsors that would support a tour. We are basically self-funded...most funding comes from within the sport (manufacturers, wholesalers, clubs, players)


I've said this before about a kajillion times - the labels we use (am vs pro) do not serve us well. They do not reflect reality, nor do they support our chosen "separation" by category. So arguing that such and such with a 950 rating is "not a pro" holds no water. The guy who just won Am Masters and is now a "World Champion" was able to compete and cash 1/3 of the time at the so called "pro" level - yet we granted him a world title through an amnesty for what reason?

The PDGA divisional system has nothing to do with fair competition - and everything to do with making everybody a winner. To me - this supports the really unhealthy attitude of "second place is the first loser". If I can't have a chance at first place - I won't play. So much for the spirit of the game :(



There's over 500 people at Am Worlds who didn't win a world title. There's probably over 400 people that didn't have a realistic chance at a world title, yet they still played, despite not being able to win. I'm not sure your argument is watertight. No one was "granted" a world title. I'm pretty sure each player still had to beat his opponents to win a world title.

The guy who won the advanced men's title is a 936-rated player who played the tournament on his home courses, and he'll be the first to tell you that's probably the best he's ever played in his life. Should he turn pro just because he's an amateur world champ? I don't know. Just because you're a good amateur, it doesn't mean you're going to be a good pro. (What do players like Tom Gloss, Alan Lay, Thor Holoch, and John Tinsley, and now Greg Schwartz have in common?) Just because you didn't win or even finish in the top 20 at an Am Worlds, it doesn't mean you're NOT going to be a top pro. Of course, you know that, too.

I'm just rambling now. The final point is, the only person who can make the final decision on whether you should be a pro or not is you. And that's the way it always should be. I don't know of any sport where that's not the case.

I get your point, I don't agree with it completely. Should there be fewer divisions? Maybe. Certain divisions should be definitely be compensated and/or emphasized much less than they are.

Chap

what about if we added upper ratings limits to all but advanced? (in the am ranks anyway).

what about if we added upper ratings limits to all but advanced? (in the am ranks anyway).



Aren't there already upper ratings limits in all am ranks except advanced? Do you mean including Advanced Masters and it's variants?

yes, i mean for all the age-protected divisions. that way if someone drops down from pro to am at least they'll have to stay in a competitive field

"yet we granted him a world title through an amnesty for what reason?"

well, because the dues were about to be raised and they were afraid the increase would scare away some lower ranked pros.



Nonsense.

I agree that no one granted a world title.... Did the person who won the event earn it and deserve the respect that comes with the title? I say yes :D

But that's not the point of this discussion for me. The point is that if amnesty programs are offered in the future more and more practicing pros become Ams, I think they will have an unfair advantage over most Ams because of their level of experience.

Considering some of the emotions I've seen stirred up on this board following Am worlds It makes me wonder about these issues. Are we going to do something to stop future incidents of what many people call sandbagging? Is dealing with the "so called problem" all that critical to the continued success of our organization? I really don't know, but I would like to know....

I do think that as far as experience levels go, the men who placed first and second in Am masters this year were the stastistical favorites based on their records. It was no surprise to me when I saw the outcome.

This is what we "the PDGA" set up with its amnesty program and regardless of that outcome is we should always honor the competitors who earned and exercised their right to be there.

Again, if you consider some of the emotions and positions posted here, it is obviously we need to work on ways to make our organization better for Ams and Pros alike. As they say "hind-sight is 20/20" but I think good planning and the use of democratic process is the way to "20/20 foresight" and a better PDGA.....

� our governing body should now consider something I proposed a long time ago � the real deal � an �Amateur World Championships� Event �
.
.
� Players� desire seems to be there �
.
� Attendance would be there �
.
� for about 81 other reasons that I won�t delve into here �n� now ;
.
� this Sport and Players deserve it ...
.
... you likin' the numbers now ?
.
... you wanna see 'em grow exponentially ?
.
... from the "grass-roots" level ?
.
.
... do it ...
.
.
.
� so , annually there would be
> Pro World Championships
> Advanced World Championships
> Amateur World Championships
.
.
.
.
... it would work ... :cool:


.
.
... and from anudder thread :
.
.



I would suggest (as an innocent bystander that did not play Worlds) that anyone (including my brother) that has a problem with how Worlds was run should shoot an e-mail or place a call to Terry Miller and/or David Gentry. I don't know how arguing about the worth of a player's pack on this message board is going to change any one's opinion or be constructive criticism for future events.

Communicating with Terry might help explain why something was done. Communicating with David might help the PDGA to provide what the players want at Worlds in the future.

... what they want is something they've never "truly" had : an Amateur World Championship Event ... c'mon , PDGA thinkers >>> go after the masses ...



Go start a thread called "I want to invent Mid Nationals" and talk about this. Get a clue...the tournament already exists. If you want to help promote it to the masses, your help would be appreciated, I'm sure. In this forum most of us already know the event exists.


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� oh yeah � Mid-Nationals � ? � and that�s for the �Championship of the World� ? � does it change venues ? � rotate around the country geographically ? � promote itself to all �Intermediate� -and- �Recreational� Level Players everywhere ? � all ages and gender ? � is it lauded as one of the PDGA �flagship� Events ? � entry gained by �PDGA Invitation� ? � earned by PDGA-accrued point totals to qualify ? � the �Big Cherry� at the end of your season-of-play ? � is it held over a week of Competition and Events ? � with Field-Events , Distance , Doubles , Putting , etc. all offered with �World-Championships� to be won ? �
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� thought so �
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� note the Title of this post � "Wake Up and Smell The Attrition" ...
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� note that ALL of the World Champions (except juniors) that were crowned last week (congrats to all , by-the-way) feature the word �ADVANCED� on their division , in the record-books , and on their �World Title� �
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� do the right thing � create some real growth � from roots up � wanna see gobs-of-players attain PDGA-current status ? � wanna see gobs-of-players retain PDGA-current status ? �
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� build it ; they will come �

... and just so you knows : none of this "constructive criticism" and "forward-thinking" rambling is directed at picking-at or finding-fault with the 2007 AmWorlds just completed ... I commend Terry Miller & STAFF for their efforts ...
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... but :
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... the fact is that I strongly-believe we need a third "World-Championship-Tournament" yearly ... somewhere on the Schedule with the two current annual Events :

PDGA Pro World Championships (like the one going on this week)
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PDGA Advanced World Championships (like the one held last week)
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... after all : I'm PDGA , they're PDGA , you're PDGA ...
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... (according to my views on our "World-Championship-Tournament" offerings to all our players : maybe that stands for Politely-Deficient-Golf-Association )

i think we should have a Third World Championship in Africa, plus another Third World Championship somewhere in Asia :)

This issue will exist until we take the money (money equivalent) out of the Am divisions. Until then, people will question the motivations of players who have reasonably high rankings or who drop down from Pro to Am.

Since it is unlikely that we are going to remove the "pay" from Am we will be stuck with the perception that someone is somehow taking advantage. BTW - as long as we're pointing fingers, we shouldn't just question the motivations of those who drop down to Am, we have to question the motivations of those who are so irritated at the new competition...



"Trophy Only!"

Nick Knight

Back onto the subject of "Step up you bagger".... I am getting tired of seeing players taking advantage of being "not rated"

We have an epidemic of unrated players bagging the intermediate divison... I was looking into the pre-reg list in an upcoming event in SF and there is a player who has attended the event for the past 4 years at least in the Int div. and is by rights approximately a 940 rated player and is going on 5 years as an un-rated Am2. I think there should be rule that if you are not rated, you have to play advanced (open Am). I'm tired of all the bagging. this guy placed 5th out almost 70 players last year and should be bumped and also should be a PDGA member by now. There are at least 20 players that could not get into this event and there are at least that many non-rated, non-members bagging it every year in that event!

We rate the unrated players at our tournament series. We move them up whenever the PDGA publishes new ratings. Sometimes we buy them memberships, but now that we have a rate-the-baggers volunteer, we don't buy them so many memberships.

Who is the rate-the baggers volunteer? Are you saying this isn't an issue or what are you saying?

A TD can assign a non-PDGA-member to whatever division they feel is appopriate, although I wouldn't want to see anyone forced to play Pro.

I agree, but I think if you start making a career in disc golf by playing one event in the same division (for 5 years!) and never join, never get rated you should be playing advanced (open Am). Furthermore, it always seems like players are saying, hey its his first tournament, he's unrated, let him play Am2.. Then he turns around and plays 970 rated golf and wins Am2! Thats balony IMO... I think if you haven't payed dues, and are un-rated you should have to play advanced unitl you can prove you belong in a ratings capped divison like Am2!

I think if you haven't payed dues, and are un-rated you should have to play advanced unitl you can prove you belong in a ratings capped divison like Am2!


A worthy suggestion. Or we could have a trophy-only "Unrated" division for non-members and people without ratings.

As Rhett said, you can place non-members in whatever division you like. I had a similar situation at my tournament this year. One of the local players who averages scores similar to some of the best players in town won Int. last year and Int. in another tourney earlier this year. When I told him he had to play Adv., he said that the PDGA did not support any bump rules. I told him he was right, but a non-member can't complain to an association that they are not a part of. He said it was BS...I said tough. He played anyway, and felt jipped that he missed out on another glorious Int. title. I smiled :D

I like the guy just fine, but I'm not putting up with that nonsense.

I think if you haven't payed dues, and are un-rated you should have to play advanced unitl you can prove you belong in a ratings capped divison like Am2!


Bad idea. Most unrated players are unrated because they are new to the sport. Putting them in Advanced and having them get smoked will only discourage them from playing future events. I'd suggest using a little peer presure to get people to move up. Then if that fails and you know the person is bagging and have proof have the TD move them up.

But we only need one event and that will do the trick... Without that we will continue to allow highly rated advanced players to bag the Am2 division again and again by never joining or becoming rated. If there performance(even if they don't join you can calculate their rating) is below the 915 rating cut-off they can play Am2 at the next event. How can you possibly have a ratings protected division if the players are not even rated? To top it off, it is one of the main reasons other true <915 Am2 players get turned off. What about those players quiting or avoiding certain events? What is worse is the fact that some of them make a personal goal out of playing that one event, each year until the win. Only then will they be forced to move up. In the mean time, they are sucking up Am2 merch that should be given to someone who deserves it..

Who is the rate-the baggers volunteer? Are you saying this isn't an issue or what are you saying?

We don't divulge the names of the volunteers. They are IOS players who care about the issue. They do the math for our series. They aren't PDGA volunteers; they are our volunteers. You gotta go get your own volunteers. :D

OK... I am volunteering.. This is my official anouncemnet as a self proclaimed rate-a-bagger.... I am starting a crusade to make a requirement that unrated players become rated. How?

1) If you attend any B-tier or higher and have never been rated, you will have to join to play and get a rating before you can play Am2, you can play Open Am all you want, but not Intermediate.
2) Unrated players have to play Advanced like it or not until a rating is esablished

If your rating after playing in the Open amateur division calcs out below the cap, you can then drop to Am2 or rec...
This will not apply to player in Age protected divisions, because thats what they are.

There is only one open division in each class(open men or Advanced Amateur). You simply can't play masters or juniors without proving your age, so why should you be able to play Am2 without proving your skill level or lack of it....

Now that you are volunteering, and that's a good first step, next you need to work with a TD who cares. Once you find him, in your region search the PDGA tournament results for the names of players who are non-members playing int. and rec. Click on "show ratings" so you can compare their rounds to other players who played the same tees to see how their rounds would rate. You'll need some kind of spreadsheet like Excell for this. You need to organize your spread sheet chronologically, include all of the rounds in the last year, and count the most recent <however many?> double.

The easiest way to find all of a non-member player's sanctioned rounds is to do a Google search of their name limited to the domain pdga.com.

This sounds like a lot of work but you really only need to track probably a dozen players. This is going to cut into your TV time.

My elves might have a spreadsheet that automatically calculates the average while doubling the most recent <however many?>. If you are serious about doing the work i'll see if they have a pre-programmed spreadsheet. One of them is an Excell wizard so i'd be surprised if he does not.

I am seroius. But more than being a rate-a-bagger, I am more interested in getting some change it the rules handed down by the PDGA to TD's. It kind of grinds my gears that I pay 50 bucks a year to be in a club, and then these un-rated guys show up and stay non-members and un-rated but still get to enjoy the fruits of our labors for 5 extra bucks....

But we only need one event and that will do the trick...



Offer a "Novice" division open only to those playing in their first tournament. Encourage all first timers to play in that division, regardless of years played, league results, etc. Solicit experienced volunteers to walk with groups of novice players to advise on rules and etiquette. Use the results to place them in future tournaments, tracking them like Bruce suggests above.

"I am starting a crusade to make a requirement that unrated players become rated. How?"

i'm with ya... how about give a permanent pdga number when non-members register for an event. after that just match the name as closely as possible. the existing online search tool already supports this process so there's no burden on our technology volunteers.

then after the event is rated, communicate the new rating and what it means about available divisions directly to the player via email/snailmail/media-of-choice.

ratings are one of the highest valued services, getting new players exposed to them as early as possible helps solve the original problem and just might help conversions into permanent members

If ratings are one of the highest valued services, then I'm not sure that you want to give away non members their ratings. I see no problem with sending them to the TDs though.

hmmm, good point... altho it would be nice to get them into the player's hands. the reason ratings are highly valued is cuz people like them, and people tend to keep buying what they like.

I did some snooping around, and it seems that almost 60% of sanctioned events in the intermidiate division are cash out by non-member, non-rated baggers, shooting well above 930 average ratings for events.... Seems to me if the 30% - 50% of the registering int. players wish to remain unrated, non members were forced to play Adv. there would be a considerable amount of additional adv. cash spots... That said, they would also be more inclined to join, get a rating and try to prove they belong in intermediate, if thats where they think they belong. If they don't move back after establishing a rating, then it's just more cash for the top adv. division and more players, 30% more at least.

amen. member or not ?is this your home course? what do you expect to score?simple questions to devellope a placement opinion.there is absolutely no reason a td cant place a non member in advanced.simply put if the players bag has properly marked discs that have experience indicators ie scratches etc. and appears to have a good selection they probably are not an intermidiate level.of course there are some exceptions.

So here is the idea to gain membership, add cash where it belongs, and stop bagging in the Am2 division all in one fail swoop!

Make any unrated player join the PDGA and become rated, or play open amateur (advanced) while all other divisions are protected by date (age) or rating (member). Ther PDGA could sell a number and a rating at a reduced rate ($20) and still make rated, non-members pay an additional fee for events ($5.00)... Think of the added cash and competition in the Advanced division. The SF Safari has about 50% of the Am2 being non-current/member, non- rated players! They could be playing advanced and having to decide what they want.... membership or rating... They would only be allowed to go Am2 if there rating is under 915 after the first event, or it could be adjusted up abit...920 or 925?

I like where you're going, but you seem to be assuming that all non-member non-rated players are evil sand baggers out to fleece the Ints.

I think those type are the minority.

I like the trophy only low entry fee "can't win any stuff" approach myself. I don't like the idea of scaring off newbies who might really enjoy disc golf by forcing them to play in the highest entry fee Am division against the toughest am competition. If a "would be rated 825" golfer is forced to pay $60 and get his head kicked in by 950 rated golfers in order to see what this tourney stuff is all about, I'm afriad he might not come back.

Paying $30 to get his head kicked in by 870 rated golfers in Rec might bring him back.



HEY! IDEA ALERT!
What if non-members were not allowed to cash or merch? If you want to take part in the prize-fest portion of the event, you must be a PDGA member. If you aren't a PDGA member, you can still play and pay full price, but if you cash or merch your winning get passed down the line.

Just a thought...

How about non PDGA members must pay the full 'REC' entry and must be "Trophy Only".

To me that just sounds like someone looking for a new revenue source. Non-members already pay a $5 premium. Players are looking for a good value for their money. Making a non-member pay $30 for trophy only while it only costs $15 for a member is a bit excessive.

Is this a widespread problem, or just a regional problem?

I scanned the first 20 events this year from NC, SC, or GA. Only 3 non-members finished in the top 3 of intermediate division---and they were 3 different non-members. One won. Out of 60 top-3 spots, total.

Much more common around here is the casual player who decides, or is talked into, trying out tournament play. If you're trying to talk him into trying a tournament and give him the choice of (1) Pay $30 entry fee plus $50 PDGA membership, $80 to try it, or (2) play advanced and get creamed---and perhaps frustrate the advanced players because you're not up on the rules and etiquette----there are greater odds that he won't play at all. No first tournament, so no 2nd, 3rd, etc.

Most first-timers can get a good recommendation of what division they should play from friends, or from their average casual score on the course if they're local.

If it's only a regional problem, do we need a national, PDGA-mandated solution? Perhaps, in areas where non-members frequently play and dominate the intermediate division, the TDs can use their prerogative to place players in a appropriate division. Surely, if someone's bagging this way a lot, he's known to the TDs in his area.

well said, David!

here's a thought: if a non-member wins their division, then part(all) of their payout value includes a membership.

I don't see it as a new revenue source as much as I see it as a source for members. Lets face it, there are regular golfers out there who play well enough to compete in advanced, who are non-member, non-rated lifer types. They like playing in PDGA sanctioned events for the perks. Great organization, prizes, food, competition. Yet they are not members! Sure they pay a $5 fee, but they are still not rated.

This opens up the door for the "lifer Am" to be born, who plays year after year at 3 or 4 events and never joins never gets rated and many of them do this in a ratings protected division... Am2

So to me it seems like a no-brainer to swoop on the thousands of non-rated golfers by setting up somes rules. Maybe allowing one grace event for non-rated players to try it out in rec or advanced. Its their choice. After that its decision time. At their next event they can join and reap PDGA benefits or play Advanced....

It seems like many of the attitudes I encounter on this subject are worried about scaring future golfers off by not letting have the option to try it and stay a non-member? I don't get it. I say it's time to start making people join if they want certain benefits.

Playing in a protected division to me is a benefit. I understand they may get their keester kicked, but hey, what about the poor slob in Am2 who has been striving for a win, only to have it snatched up by a non-rated guy who plays 950 golf at his first event?

IMO, unless you have joined, have proof of age, rating etc. You are an open player. Open pro, or Open Advanced are the choices. If we don't start putting our foot down, pretty soon the majority of players will avoid the yearly fee and stay non-current, or non-members and the majority will not belong to the PDGA... I myself am considering not to re-up, seeing how easy it is for these guys. I only play 6 or 7 events per year thats only 30-35 bucks or I could pay 50? and I probably won't get a mag this time out? Bye Bye is what I think we will be hearing from lots of players....

Snatch em up when the have the fever, before the honeymoon is over is what I say.... At the same time stop the bagging

well said, David!

here's a thought: if a non-member wins their division, then part(all) of their payout value includes a membership.



That is a great idea.. BTW, it is a widespread problem in my region. The only events that have current, rated golfers is A-tier and up. Lets see, we have a few of those in NorCal... The rest are B-tier with very few C-tiers. The majority of Am golfers in my area pay their five bucks and are either non-current rated players.. or not members. And they don't have anything making them join.. notta... nothin.. ziltch....it's bagger heaven...TD's are way too busy to be rate-a-baggers... Something needs to be changed.... I think the majority of non-rated players really belong in advanced personally.

It's true a few of them end up with true Am2 ratings, but in my region, most of them don't stay long if they get a rating.

here's a thought: if a non-member wins their division, then part(all) of their payout value includes a membership.



I like it. You might extend it to a non-member winning $50 or more in merch, that a one-year membership is part of that merch. But would anyone choose to not renew, in the hopes they could win another year's membership?

The idea that non-members play trophy-only, or decline prizes, or perhaps get reduced payouts, I think all have merit. At TD's discretion, not by PDGA decree.

As for Senior's "Lets face it, there are regular golfers out there who play well enough to compete in advanced, who are non-member, non-rated lifer types", it's not true around here, as shown above.

While allowing non-members to have ratings strikes me as giving away a membership service for free, being able to track them by name through tournament results might be useful to TDs in areas where there is a problem.

Generally speaking, inducing people to join beats coercing them to join.

I was writing my last post before seeing yours.....

Since it is a problem in NorCal, perhaps other places, I think these other ideas people have thrown out are a better way to deal with it. Make PDGA-membership be a benefit---including access to full prizes.