player walks up to his shoy, about 150 out from the pin. he bends down, marks his disc, picks it up and flicks it a foot or so in front of his marker. he stands behind his lie and throws his next shot.

what call should i make?

Isnt the rule more than 3 feet or something to that effect? I know a took a practice swing from the tee earlier this summer and the disc slipped from my hand and landed about 5 feet in front of the tee, I'm lying one with 480' to go.

From the Definitions section:
800

Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player�s lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie.

So, any throw in the direction of the basket is a practice throw. However....


803.01
B. Practice Throws. A player who throws a practice throw or an extra throw with any disc any time after the start of his or her round and prior to his or her finishing the last hole of the round (except for throws that must be re-thrown in accordance with the rules, provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3), or throws during a suspension or postponement of play) shall receive one penalty throw. The practice throw or extra throw must be observed by any two players or an official.

If the practice throw isn't observed by 2 players or an official, it can't/won't be called.

Different reactions for diferent scenarios:

Scenario #1 - (Weekly Handicap Round) I would wait until everyone was walking to their next shots (or possibly the next hole) and catch up to the offending player. I would try to explain what I saw happen and let the offender know that you're not supposed to do that, as it could be counted as a competitive throw. Hopefully the offender will understand and that would be the end of it.

Scenario #2 - (Pro Worlds Round #4) I would count the short toss as a competitive throw, then the one from the mini would be a practice throw, the new lie will be from the short toss. Complete the hole and add all throws plus one for the practice throw.

It seems picky, but didn't the player technically advance the disc from his marked lie?

Forget about practice throw. It's your throw:

Throw: The propulsion of a disc that causes it to change its position from the teeing area or the lie.

Based on research of the latest group of stance violation/practice throw questions, there are only two results from the propulsion of a disc.

A practice throw or a competitive throw. The difference is that a practice throw happens from somewhere other than your active lie. therefore, Any toss of any distance from your active lie counts as a competitive throw.

It would depend on what role I was filling as to whether I would make the call. As a player on the card, probably just a discreet warning, if brought to me as a marshal or TD, the rules say the first throw from the active lie is the comptitive throw (since subsequent throws from the lie would be practice throws).

The disc must travel more than 2 meters to be a practice throw.
If I go to mark my lie with the mini, pick up my disc, and, still bent over drop my disc onto the mini on purpose slightly forward from my mark are you going to argue that I need to be stroked????????????!!!!!!!!!!
Tell me it ain't so Joe.
The rule clearly says 2 meters and you said he advanced it 3 ft. Two meters is approx. 7 ft.
NO PENALTY!!!!!!

Forget about practice throw. It's your throw:

Throw: The propulsion of a disc that causes it to change its position from the teeing area or the lie.



If I place my bag down 7 ft away from my lie, mark my disc, pick up my disc, and take one step towards my bag ( approx. step = 3 ft. ) and toss my disc down on my bag, my disc has been propulsed changing it's position on the hole.
This is a stroke???????????!!!!!!!!!!!
Tell me it ain't so Joe. Tell me it ain't so.

The disc must travel more than 2 meters to be a practice throw.




Common misconception Skip1. Read the rule in Anita's post above.

What we don't know is whether the player had their foot in position for a proper stance behind the disc which is unlikely. In which case, the disc toss would be a practice throw since it was tossed toward the target OR another player observing this could have called a foot fault within three seconds such that the player would only get a warning for taking an improper stance on a throw.

I just checked the book and it does say " or any distance towards the hole" so in this game of opportunism you get to stroke your friend for a bad decision to make in front of YOU.
I also would assume that since I released my disc in a slightly forward position to put it on my mini while I shoot that I too would DESERVE another stroke to my score.
Whatever....Good grief what's become of us?????

I'm not saying it should be that way, just the way the rule reads now. In ball golf, you can practice putts and chips in between holes if there's no group coming up on you and you have to wait on the next tee. Seems like our current practice throw rule is more likely used to penalize players with "innocent" pitches back to their bag or out of the way of their mark than it is to penalize those actually practicing by playing catch. In fact, you could keep warm by playing catch with a ball or kicking the hacky if you wanted under the current rule.

A player walks over a bridge to get to his disc and putt at a 33 footer. He places his bag down at the bridge like everyone else in the group because their next hole is back on the other side. Trouble is the bridge and bag are only 30 ft from the basket. He walks to his disc, marks it, picks it up and cleans it with the towel while studying the shot and wind and walking 3 steps back over to his bag. He tosses the disc down on his bag and grabs his putter. Technically this is now his lie at the bag, but he screws up again and goes back to his mini and putts. Now he's got a couple of strokes for throwing from the wrong lie. You ( mouth watering with delight ) get to tell him he is now lying 6? or 8? I'm not sure.

If his toss to his bag isn't in the direction of the pin, it's not a throw. It's only the case when the disc is projected toward the target, although some think that could mean any target.

You're out at Cedar Hill on the Beaver course in all the trees and vines and vegetation. All four tee shots are made and all are within 25 ft. One unlucky guy, though, is in the heavy growth. He walks to the spot and sets his bag down at the edge of the stuff about 4ft in front of his lie. He then take 3 min. to get in position behind the disc because it's so heavily overgrown, steps behind the disc, reaching through all the thorns he manages to get his mini in place and picks up the disc. Standing in position for his next throw, he sticks his head and disc out through a small hole in the brush, reaches out to about 2ft from his bag and tosses the disc down on it.


YYYYYEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WIN !!!!!!! wwooooooo hhhoooooo alright.




Give me a break.

If his toss to his bag isn't in the direction of the pin, it's not a throw. It's only the case when the disc is projected toward the target, although some think that could mean any target.



If his toss to his bag is now 3 ft. closer to the basket then it is improving the lie by making it closer ie easier.
I'm sorry but it's closer, then it's "at" it... I get to stroke him. ;)

These are conditions where intelligent and fair competitors should be able to take " Intent" into consideration and make clear rational conclusions that don't complicate matters.

Or, players could know that any throw made while standing on a live lie is a competitive throw and not toss their discs around like it doesn't matter.

Or, players could know that any throw made while standing on a live lie is a competitive throw and not toss their discs around like it doesn't matter.



I'm sorry, Gary, but it doesn't matter in a reasonable and fair world.
You would prefer that the player that took 3 min. to get to his lie in the thorns take another 3 min to come out and place his disc down and another 3 min to get back to his lie if he doesn't want to throw with a disc in each hand?
I just don't get these younger players today. When I was a kid we had to walk ten miles in the snow to mark our lie and we were GLAD to do it cause we were having fun. :D

IMO the part of the rule that says " or any distance towards the target" needs to be omitted and just go with the 2 meters to be a penalty.
I have witnessed the afore mentioned case take place on more than one occassion and nobody had a problem with it. Also, I have seen several golfers that have the practice of marking their disc and then either flipping it over in front of the mini or picking it up and flicking it 3 inches forward to rest on their mini.
Anyone wanting to stroke this person would not be having fun and making friends. Friends for life. Friends all over the country, continent, and world. The one thing about the PDGA and competitive play that makes us such an attractive pass time.
I guess I'm just too soft to be making decisions on competitive play and have no business trying to do the work to hold tournaments, because it would not be in my spirit to back up some sour grapes player that wanted the guy that beat him to be stroked for one of these circumstances. I couldn't do it.

IMO the part of the rule that says " or any distance towards the target" needs to be omitted and just go with the 2 meters to be a penalty.


Hey skip, this is how the bored people like me pass the time debating the nuances of the rules: we come up with a less-that-perfectly-clear scenario and then start debating what rules apply and why, and then what other rules apply and why, and so and so forth. No one is trying to screw anyone over by tacking on more strokes, and no one is saying that any interpretation they present here for debate is anything close to what they would call on the course.

And most of us are masters aged, so we ain't no spring chickens. :)


I think the key point on this one is this part of the practice throw definition: ...which does not change the player�s lie, either <font color="blue">because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie</font>, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie.

In the orginal scenario presented on this thread, the player in question was at his/her lie, and presumably in a legal stance. ("Not a stance violation" makes fro better debate right now. Adding a stance violation to the scenario later might be fun. :) )

Tossing the thrown disc forward from this position meets all the requirements of competitive throw. (Any direction, actually, not just forward.) The new lie is now a foot in front of where the player is standing.

The player now throws from "not his lie" because his lie is one foot ahead. Throwing from "not your lie" is a practice throw.

The player should now move ahead one foot to the proper lie and throw.

What the score? Let's assume the tee shot has left the disc where we found it in the scenario. 1 is tee shot, 2 is little one foot pitch, 3 is practice throw, 4 is shot from the one foot pitch, assuming that we are now within 20 feet 1 shot for the putt equals a 5. :)

I think that is all technically correct and that no one would ever make this call on the course. Ever. Even though it is "right".

I like Gary Duke's assertion that maybe people should realize that any throw from their lie is a "real" throw and not toss discs around as if it didn't matter. We are talking about a PDGA sanctioned tournament and not a rec round after all. :) There should be some kind of difference, but there really isn't.

In ball golf, you can practice putts and chips in between holes if there's no group coming up on you and you have to wait on the next tee.



Chuck,

I believe that only applies to match play (hole play), not medal play (stroke play).

Stenky.

I'm sorry, Gary, but it doesn't matter in a reasonable and fair world.
You would prefer that the player that took 3 min. to get to his lie in the thorns take another 3 min to come out and place his disc down and another 3 min to get back to his lie if he doesn't want to throw with a disc in each hand?
I just don't get these younger players today. When I was a kid we had to walk ten miles in the snow to mark our lie and we were GLAD to do it cause we were having fun.



Skip,

A) Life in this world is neither reasnable nor fair.
B) In a casual round, I would agree with the fun aspect and selectively enforce any rules you wish. In a competition, the rules are important. Having fun is also important, as long as it is playing by the rules. Why call OB on any player? Lost disc? What is the difference between enforcing these rules and enforcing the shot rule? Being selective in the enforcement of the rules is not beneficial to any of the players around you, including the recipient of the penalty.

JMO,

Steve

In ball golf is it not a penalty~stroke to even touch the ball with your putter/club...intentions aside?

rhett, i think you got it right assuming his little toss went far enough so that he was now toofar back. the case i saw today (at least 30 times) the player only flicked it forward a half disc length. so his old lie was still legal for the new throw. in that case i think its only the one foot throw to add. so when he says 3 he gets a 4.

In ball golf, you can practice putts and chips in between holes if there's no group coming up on you and you have to wait on the next tee.



Chuck,

I believe that only applies to match play (hole play), not medal play (stroke play).

Stenky.



Stenky is correct, and actually, even the Ryder Cup captains last year agreed to prohibit this practice during the Ryder Cup, which is all match play. I didn't watch any of the Ryder Cup to know if this actually happened, or if they abandoned the agreement mid-tournament, but much was made of their agreement to do that.

Also, players are not automatically DQ'd for being late in match play. If they miss one hole, penalty is loss of hole. If they miss two holes, penalty is loss of match. They are DQ'd in stroke play.

Chap

In ball golf is it not a penalty~stroke to even touch the ball with your putter/club...intentions aside?



If you touch it accidentally, you must replace the ball (if the ball moved), with a 1-stroke penalty. Actually, you even get penalized if you ground your club, and the ball changes position.

Chap

In ball golf, you can practice putts and chips in between holes if there's no group coming up on you and you have to wait on the next tee.



Chuck,

I believe that only applies to match play (hole play), not medal play (stroke play).

Stenky.



Stenky is correct, and actually, even the Ryder Cup captains last year agreed to prohibit this practice during the Ryder Cup, which is all match play. I didn't watch any of the Ryder Cup to know if this actually happened, or if they abandoned the agreement mid-tournament, but much was made of their agreement to do that.

Also, players are not automatically DQ'd for being late in match play. If they miss one hole, penalty is loss of hole. If they miss two holes, penalty is loss of match. They are DQ'd in stroke play.

Chap



Chuck being proven wrong...

...wow, this is a first :D

IMO the part of the rule that says " or any distance towards the target" needs to be omitted and just go with the 2 meters to be a penalty.


Hey skip, this is how the bored people like me pass the time debating the nuances of the rules: we come up with a less-that-perfectly-clear scenario and then start debating what rules apply and why, and then what other rules apply and why, and so and so forth. No one is trying to screw anyone over by tacking on more strokes, and no one is saying that any interpretation they present here for debate is anything close to what they would call on the course.

And most of us are masters aged, so we ain't no spring chickens. :)


I think the key point on this one is this part of the practice throw definition: ...which does not change the player�s lie, either <font color="blue">because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie</font>, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie.

In the orginal scenario presented on this thread, the player in question was at his/her lie, and presumably in a legal stance. ("Not a stance violation" makes fro better debate right now. Adding a stance violation to the scenario later might be fun. :) )

Tossing the thrown disc forward from this position meets all the requirements of competitive throw. (Any direction, actually, not just forward.) The new lie is now a foot in front of where the player is standing.

The player now throws from "not his lie" because his lie is one foot ahead. Throwing from "not your lie" is a practice throw.

The player should now move ahead one foot to the proper lie and throw.

What the score? Let's assume the tee shot has left the disc where we found it in the scenario. 1 is tee shot, 2 is little one foot pitch, 3 is practice throw, 4 is shot from the one foot pitch, assuming that we are now within 20 feet 1 shot for the putt equals a 5. :)

I think that is all technically correct and that no one would ever make this call on the course. Ever. Even though it is "right".

I like Gary Duke's assertion that maybe people should realize that any throw from their lie is a "real" throw and not toss discs around as if it didn't matter. We are talking about a PDGA sanctioned tournament and not a rec round after all. :) There should be some kind of difference, but there really isn't.



Actually, Rhett, it is not a throw if it is less than 2 meters and not in any fashion towards the hole. If your bag is 7 ft. behind you and you mark and step back and toss the disc 3 ft onto your bag it is not a practice throw or a competitive throw. It is simply, believe it or not, just putting your disc down.
I know this is a tough concept for many of you, but taking the conspiracy theories out of it, it's a very simple act.

I think the key word here is "proof." I would offer the text of Rule 7-2 from the Rules of Golf by the USGA to support my position:

7-2 During Round
A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole.
Between the play of two holes, a player must not make a practice stroke, except that he may practice putting or chipping on or near:
(a) the putting green of the hole last played,(b) any practice putting green, or(c) the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round,provided a practice stroke is not made from a hazard and does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7).
Strokes made in continuing the play of a hole, the result of which has been decided, are not practice strokes.

This rule applies to Match or Stroke play.

Skip, you are displaying your ignorance. Read the rules before you tell us what they don't say. Nothing in the rules requires that a throw go two meters or go towards any target. Your drop-in put from six inches away is a throw, even if you drop it in the wrong direction. But actually try reading the rules.

I think the key word here is "proof." I would offer the text of Rule 7-2 from the Rules of Golf by the USGA to support my position:

7-2 During Round
A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole.
Between the play of two holes, a player must not make a practice stroke, except that he may practice putting or chipping on or near:
(a) the putting green of the hole last played,(b) any practice putting green, or(c) the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round,provided a practice stroke is not made from a hazard and does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7).
Strokes made in continuing the play of a hole, the result of which has been decided, are not practice strokes.

This rule applies to Match or Stroke play.



Please show me when anyone has made a practice shot during a USGA stroke-play round and not been penalized.

Your interpretation of the rules is just that...your interpretation. I would love to see Tiger make a missed putt 5 times in row because he wasn't unduly delaying play. Ball golf has the same common sense rulings that disc golf does. Just because it isn't spelled out, doesn't mean that you should be able take advantage of loop-holes.

My question is concerning the player I mentioned in the earlier post about being in the thorns and placing the bag down between the lie and the basket, reaching through the brush and tossing the disc down on the bag about 2 ft. in front of the lie. The player must carry his bag into the crap to make you happy. We are not capable of allowing "Intent" to be a part of a call. It all must be done from the most litteral of definitions because the written word is absolute and all incompassing and always black and white. Right, and the devil put dinasour bones on the planet to fool us into thinking the world is more than six thousand years old.
As TD, if an irate player comes to me wanting me to stroke a player for some indiscriminate little act that had NOTHING to do with the real competition like flicking his disc three inches forward in front of the mini, I will refuse his request and suffer the consequences of not upholding the rules as some of you see the need for. Report me. I have no business TDing an "A" tier event ( something I'll be doing on Nov. 3rd and 4th ). :o:D

[QUOTE]
Skip, you are displaying your ignorance. Read the rules before you tell us what they don't say. Nothing in the rules requires that a throw go two meters or go towards any target. Your drop-in put from six inches away is a throw, even if you drop it in the wrong direction. But actually try reading the rules. [/quote
So you're not intending to stroke him for a practice throw. You want to ignore the fact that the player was without a doubt NOT trying to advance the lie and call it his shot and all subsequent lies are from wrong lies and the actual total of shots made on the hole are compounded with penalties and interest to the point of becoming the IRS.
A simple and fun game gone mad.

I think the key word here is "proof." I would offer the text of Rule 7-2 from the Rules of Golf by the USGA to support my position:

7-2 During Round
A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole.
Between the play of two holes, a player must not make a practice stroke, except that he may practice putting or chipping on or near:
(a) the putting green of the hole last played,(b) any practice putting green, or(c) the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round,provided a practice stroke is not made from a hazard and does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7).
Strokes made in continuing the play of a hole, the result of which has been decided, are not practice strokes.

This rule applies to Match or Stroke play.



Please show me when anyone has made a practice shot during a USGA stroke-play round and not been penalized.

Your interpretation of the rules is just that...your interpretation. I would love to see Tiger make a missed putt 5 times in row because he wasn't unduly delaying play. Ball golf has the same common sense rulings that disc golf does. Just because it isn't spelled out, doesn't mean that you should be able take advantage of loop-holes.



There is a difference between PGA and USGA. There are additional rules that the PGA imposes on its players. I believe if you watch the US Open which is played under the USGA and not the PGA you will see some mild difference in the rules.

Like wearing collared shirts in NTs...

USGA lets Caddies wear shorts... PGA doesn't...

Please show me when anyone has made a practice shot during a USGA stroke-play round and not been penalized.



You see this on TV every so often. The guy misses a putt, holes out and sometimes you'll see him drop a ball in the background and try the putt again before moving on. It's not an interpretation. It's right in the rules that it's OK and not a penalty.

let's tweak the original scenario. player walks up to his shot, marks it, picks up his disc and with his foot behind his mini-marker places the disc in front of the mini. is this a competitive shot?

keep in mind, that when a player is 3 inches from the basket, he is often seen placing it in the basket which is counted as a competitive shot.

the scenario above is actually the pre-throw routine of a local player. if it counts as a throw, i'll look into retroactively assigning him penalty strokes for the last, say, 10 years or so.

The key word here is "places" the disc versus "tosses" it. His procedure should be fine.

Travel more than two meters OR any distance towards the target.

Big difference between OR and AND.

As to whether or not someone will call the rules infraction . . . it's been well discussed that infractions are rarely called, so you'd probably not be stroked. But, you'd actually be breaking the rules. So, the issue becomes one of values: Is it important to follow the rules only so far as breaking the rules might cause a penalty to be called, or is following the rules important regardless of any potential negative outcome ?


The disc must travel more than 2 meters to be a practice throw.
If I go to mark my lie with the mini, pick up my disc, and, still bent over drop my disc onto the mini on purpose slightly forward from my mark are you going to argue that I need to be stroked????????????!!!!!!!!!!
Tell me it ain't so Joe.
The rule clearly says 2 meters and you said he advanced it 3 ft. Two meters is approx. 7 ft.
NO PENALTY!!!!!!

so placing into the polehole is a competitive throw but placing in front of mini-marker is not a competitive throw?

i'm just trying to be difficult.

In one case, you're placing the disc on the playing surface and the other you are holing out per the rules. If you tried to place the disc in the basket and you bumped the basket and the disc dropped to the ground, it would count as a throw.

Where does common sense come into play? I'm with Skip on this aspect. If a player marks a lie with a mini, picks up the disc from the previous shot, and tosses it to the bag, within a reasonable distance and NOT toward the target, why/how can any reasonable person call that a practice throw, much less an actual stroke?

If we could stop trying to tweak every little rule for advantage instead of being a better player, the sport would progress. Instead, we're quibbling over nits.

Of course, the best way to avoid this is to walk back to the bag, set the disc in the bag, then return to the marked lie. But, in the case of the really nasty shule mentioned earlier, that's all but impossible. This is where common sense comes in. or SHOULD. (shuled?)

The key word here is "places" the disc versus "tosses" it. His procedure should be fine.



Player goes to mark the disc, picks up disc, and in one easy move taking less than a nanosecond, he lifts the disc to a flat position parralel to the ground and gently projects it a full inch and a half to come to rest on his mini while he shoots. At one point for the briefest of moments the disc was airborn.
Ruling:
Weekend mini play with the guys...noone cares. NO STROKE
"A" tier tournament with Mr. Whiney....STROKE THAT MUTHA


I'm sorry but I will never go there.

[QUOTE]
Where does common sense come into play?
If we could stop trying to tweak every little rule for advantage instead of being a better player, the sport would progress. Instead, we're quibbling over nits.

Finally a voice of reason in the vast emptiness of space. Be careful, Steve, when implying that anyone here could possibly be selfishly motivated. Everyone here is far above reproach. These discussions are of Algonquinian stature and could never be mistaken as misguided.

USGA lets Caddies wear shorts... PGA doesn't...


somebody forgot to tell the caddies at the PGA championship at Southern Hills about this :D

Skip, I just don't think you have what it takes to be one these here rules' zealots... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Stroke-stroke-stroke-stroke...etc! :p

Skip, I just don't think you have what it takes to be one these here rules' zealots... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Stroke-stroke-stroke-stroke...etc! :p



Thanks circle, that's the nicest thing anybody's ever said to me on this board. :cool:
That Mark Twain was a pretty smart guy.

USGA lets Caddies wear shorts... PGA doesn't...


somebody forgot to tell the caddies at the PGA championship at Southern Hills about this :D



Every once in a while, when it is 100+ degrees they waive this rule...

Sorry Skip, I consider my self a rules zealot, but find no pleasure in giving anyone a penalty.

Why is it evil to want players to follow the rules of the game or suffer the consequences of their own actions or ignorance ?

I do not want to give anyone a penalty stroke, I want everyone to play within the rules at all times and never make any mistakes.

I think all violations need to be called and the penalty specified by the rules applied. Especially if I am the guilty party.

I have studied the rules around a throw, and believe that if you stand on your lie and toss a disc any distance in any direction, it's a live competitive throw regardless of intention.

Either place the previously thrown disc on the playing surface, wait until after you make your competitive throw to deal with the disc, or do not stand on your active lie while you toss it less than 2 meters and not toward a target.

There is no reason to commit violations just because no one calls them, and no reason to expect that no one ever will.

Please show me when anyone has made a practice shot during a USGA stroke-play round and not been penalized.



You see this on TV every so often. The guy misses a putt, holes out and sometimes you'll see him drop a ball in the background and try the putt again before moving on. It's not an interpretation. It's right in the rules that it's OK and not a penalty.



Sorry Chuck but I've never seen this being done in stroke play. I doubt anyone else has either.

...common sense...

Please show me when anyone has made a practice shot during a USGA stroke-play round and not been penalized.



You see this on TV every so often. The guy misses a putt, holes out and sometimes you'll see him drop a ball in the background and try the putt again before moving on. It's not an interpretation. It's right in the rules that it's OK and not a penalty.



Sorry Chuck but I've never seen this being done in stroke play. I doubt anyone else has either.

...common sense...



Actually, I have, although it is rare to see. The reason for this is the number of players on a course at once. For example, today there were 36 groups spread over 6 hours (one tee time every 10 minutes.) Lets lowball it and say the average round takes 4 hours, start to finish. That means when the first group holes out on 18, there are 23 groups on the course and 1 just teeing off on the first tee. That puts more than 1 group per hole. Players dont have time to sit and practice putting or chipping very often because play is so slow and, according to the rule, you can't hold up play. You also can't hole out again, because this would be a continuation of playing the hole. Watch a small tourney on tv sometime, something small enough that Tiger doesn't even play in it, and you will see it sometime during that day. I saw it first hand while sitting at the 14th green of the Phoenix Open a few years back.

Its rare, but as per the rules - legal.

And for those who don't think this stroke would ever be called, check out the thread from the Minnesota Majestic where Climo attempted to call Cale Leiviska for a "practice throw" after cale holed out and spiked his disc that traveled less than 2 meters. In a friendly game or league probably not, but in a tourney you better not be tossing your disc any ammount past your mini in the direction of the basket or you WILL be taking a stroke.

[QUOTE]
Where does common sense come into play?
If we could stop trying to tweak every little rule for advantage instead of being a better player, the sport would progress. Instead, we're quibbling over nits.

Finally a voice of reason in the vast emptiness of space. Be careful, Steve, when implying that anyone here could possibly be selfishly motivated. Everyone here is far above reproach. These discussions are of Algonquinian stature and could never be mistaken as misguided.



The problem skip, is that everyone at some time or another is selfishly motivated. Common sense, as they say, isn't very common.


Take speeding for example, and I used this example on a similar discussion on another thread, I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the people who get tickets either didn't realize they were speeding or had thought they were speeding way less than they actually were. They simply weren't paying attention. Why do they still get tickets? Well, beyond the fact that they were speeding, you can't possibly determine who intentionally meant to speed vs. those who weren't paying attention.


Let's take the case being discussed here and postulate why the rule is in place. Warming up and getting the correct motion is essential to good performance in sport. What if I found that from 30 feet I hit 70% of my putts; but if I take a practice motion, tossing my disc 4 or five feet prior to taking my putt I could up that 90%? All I have to do is use that practice surreptitiously. Only take that "practice" swing when the money is on the line.


If you find this unlikely, you're wrong, at least by the stuff I saw when I was Chair of the DC. The real problem lies in judging. Who is trying to take advantage and who is not? Since trying to ascertain who really cheated would be purely subjective, we have to call it on everyone.


BTW - I will fully admit that there are people who will try and use this rule against other players to their advantage. Even nice guys like KC. Nonetheless, Ken was right. What if he had lost by one stroke? He seamlessly plays by the rules and his opponent who doesn't wins. Pretty irksome by any measure. Yes, I know, the toss was minor and "inconsequential," but was it? Who are we to say it wasn't. Were we there? It seems obvious but making such calls out of perspective can be risky.


Final point. We need to pay more attention to other sports. While not a true baseball aficionado, I like the sport enough to have a good appreciation for how players have tweaked and played the rules. It is human nature and as constant as taxes.

Skip, take heart. I often read these discussions, and hear the hue and cry over rules enforcement, and lack of integrity, etc. I also go to tournaments where for the most part, players thankfully have a sense of what is fair, what is sporting, what situations the rules were really written for, etc. They instinctively apply discretion and think nothing of it. The rules zealots always scream about this, and there will always be the occasional player looking to gain a stroke or two through rules "enforcement," but they are thankfully a very tiny minority on the course.

Interestingly, it seems like much of the enforcement of rules that some consider "nit picky" occurs when one player has been offending the other players with borderline courtesy violations and someone decides to find something to call on that player.

Skip, I just don't think you have what it takes to be one these here rules' zealots... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Stroke-stroke-stroke-stroke...etc! :p



Thanks circle, that's the nicest thing anybody's ever said to me on this board. :cool:




:(

I like Gary Duke's assertion that maybe people should realize that any throw from their lie is a "real" throw and not toss discs around as if it didn't matter. We are talking about a PDGA sanctioned tournament and not a rec round after all. There should be some kind of difference, but there really isn't.

so, at what point do we as players say to our cardmates "ya know, this rule was not meant for this situation, lets just disregard this rule this time."? how can we have organized and fair competition if we can ask that question?

Here is one that happened a couple years back. A player drives into a thickett of manzanita bushes. He crawls into the bush and positions to throw. Just before he is about to throw, a guy in our group says he is pushing a branch backward with his back to get into throwing position, and that is illegal.... This ensues for three more set-ups until the rest of us get fed up and tell the rules-mongers to let the poor slob throw and that based on our assessment he is clear and can throw. We move on. I happen to see players regularly wiggling into shrubs and pressuring branches with their backs to get into position to throw. Is this illegal or not?

I suspect that much of the time, a player would need to lay on the ground to meet the letter of the minimum movement rule but most make a judgment call that allows the player to stand and not have a branch bent "grossly" out of shape, whatever that means.

As for the original situation, I agree that if you are in a sacntioned event you should play as such.... I have seen a person attempt a flick and it only went 30" as it slipped out of the players sweaty fingers. That was throw. So who is to say that a players would not try to get over on someone in that situation and pretend they were just setting up?

I'm amazed that anyone was making that call, Senior.

I've seen fathers teaching their sons the "big butt backup" method as a strategy for putting when the lie is in a bush. I've seen pros teaching the same technique to up-and-comer ams.

I guess instead of being concerned that these guys are breaking the rules and gaining a definitive competitive advantage, I should just work on my game and quit trying to be a dick. I mean, it's not like that's a stroke advantage right then and there when I'm 20 feet from the basket inside a tall bush and I make sure I don't move anything between the lie and the hole and end up pitching to the base of the pin, and my competitor with the same lie simply goes to the basket and then backs up to his lie clearing the path with his big ole butt and makes the clear putt.

What kind of a worthless piece or crap would make that call on the big-butt player anyway? Sheesh, I would just be trying to work the other player with dumb rules if I did that, right? :p

rhett, i cant tell if you are serious or sarcastic... the strength of the "quit trying to be a ***" and "worthlessP.O.C" phrases may be throwing me off.

Sometimes it helps to talk apples and apples.

The original post was about a guy flicking/moving/tossing his putter a foot ahead after marking his lie. I have played a lot of golf and never seen this called as anything. Hopefully, I never will. Now, Rhett is describing a completely legit call. I hope I am not suppose to infer that one is like the other. I have never seen the six-inch toss called a practice throw, but I have seeen numerous occasions where players are rightfully told to get a stance without moving stuff out of the way. Guess what? No one thinks someone is a dick for making the second call. It's almost the reverse for the first call. Why is that?

Y'all should just embrace the fact that all rules and situations are not created equal, almost everyone else has.

Where does common sense come into play?
If we could stop trying to tweak every little rule for advantage instead of being a better player, the sport would progress.


James, I get tired of the above sentiment that seems to say "practice more and quit trying to make rules calls that screw people over."

I believe the rules should be called as written, and if there are "bad rules" in the book they should be revised and then the new version should be called as written.

James,

We were also discussing how any throw "from your lie" is technically a competitive throw. I don't think that anybody has called for everyone to go out and start making that call on the course.

I'm sure nobody has said, "Hey check this out: you can screw over the competition and beat better players by calling this rule instead of practicing!"

And as for selectively calling the rules, that means that I can select to call you on a big-butt backup technique and the guy on the next card can select to not call it, leaving you at distinct competitive disadvantage.

Hey, this one's even better: James can select to play by the rules and *NOT* do the big-butt backup technique while his competitor on another card can to do it to gain a distinct competitive disadvantage and the players on that card can select to not enforce that rule because they don't think it matters.

How about this one, then: how many 5-foot putts have you seen missed? Yeah, not very many. It's kind of stupid to require everybody to mark their disc and then putt from such a close distance that really doesn't matter. Groups can select to not enforce the holing out rule and just pick up from 5 to 10 feet.


So really, how do you decide which rules "matter"?

Well, needless to say, this guy has since ethier quit or has been kicked out of the PDGA for other, more serous issues like fighting, unsportmans like conduct and cheating... But amazingly enough he pulled this kind of stuff all the time. It was inevitable that players around him got fed up and he went ballistic.... Go figure, and I thought disc golf was susposed to be fun :confused:

First, I don't view most rules as either good or bad. They are good when applied to the right scenarios and bad when misapplied.

In my estimation only, the practice throw was written mainly for discs thrown in anger. Interestingly enough, I rarely see that anymore, but it was more common back then. IIRC, the two meters was later added, because the rules committee, to their credit, didn't want the rule applied to the scenario in the original post. However, the language for a practice throw is still needed for those times for which it was written for.

Likewise with the recently discussed "play from another's lie rule". I expect it was written for situations where the hole was completed, and never intended to apply when the mistake was immediately noticed. We could probably go on and on.

As stated on these threads before, I am of the fundamental belief that our rules are excellent for the most part, but they, like almost every other set of rules on earth, only work under the guidance of discretion. Otherwise, they lose their utility.

Your question "So really, how do you decide which rules "matter"?" is an excellent question. My answer is simply "the ones that are most often called in particular situations." Why these rules are called, and under what scenarios is probably a complex social phenomenon, but I'd argue that it roughly reflects the average player's sense of fair play and ensuring that no one gets a commonly accepted competitive advantage.

The way I see it, the push the bush rule is a valid one given certain circumstances. If a guy is making incidental contact with a branch you won't hear me say a thing. But if a guy forces his way into bush by backing in and compressing the branches until he has an unobstructed putt/approach, I will call it. So to me it is a common sense ruling. Does it gain the player an unfair advantage over the rest of the field or not, and what is the players intention at the time? Most cases people are honest and I give them the benifit of the doubt...

Your question "So really, how do you decide which rules "matter"?" is an excellent question. My answer is simply "the ones that are most often called in particular situations." Why these rules are called, and under what scenarios is probably a complex social phenomenon, but I'd argue that it roughly reflects the average player's sense of fair play and ensuring that no one gets a commonly accepted competitive advantage.

It could be that you really think that way. I think if you were to think about it longer the answer would be, "The rules that my competitor gains an advantage by breaking that I also have the cahones to call."

I guess one man's cajones is another man's discretion. I long for the day when everybody has cojones big enough to call practice throws for discs dropped onto the bag.

So what if a player is in the creek and tosses a disc up for the opponent to catch while the player climbs out? Is that a penalty?

if its more than 2M or any distance towards a target, yes.

in fact, i pulled a disc out of the creek saturday (sandal-wearing has its benefits :) )... the owner, on another card across trhe creek, hollered for me to chuck it over... i said "man, i cant do that during play" and he laughed and said "i know, i was just messin with you".

well that is good to know NOW!!

Well, what if he is losing his balance and projects the disc forward in order to grab a branch to save his life. Apparently, if you are in a group with Jon and Pat, I guess you'll get a stroke for that move, which obviously gave you a big advantage over them. Most other players I know of couldn't care less, and they wouldn't think of you as a cheater, even if you beat them by one stroke. It would be out of their mind a second after it happened, never to be thought of again. We live in such a permissive society.

The rules zealots always scream about this, and there will always be the occasional player looking to gain a stroke or two through rules "enforcement," but they are thankfully a very tiny minority on the course.



I know you're right, James, but that minority is enough to be a huge headache for a TD espescially if he wants to have a reputation as a good TD.

Well, what if he is losing his balance and projects the disc forward in order to grab a branch to save his life.

Does the branch break? :D Cuz if it does, we'll DQ his corpse.

I like Gary Duke's assertion that maybe people should realize that any throw from their lie is a "real" throw and not toss discs around as if it didn't matter. We are talking about a PDGA sanctioned tournament and not a rec round after all. There should be some kind of difference, but there really isn't.





Rhett, I do appreciate the need to have rules that can be easily understood and efficiently applied to maintain top notch competition. My question to you is: the player marks his disc and, in one quick motion, picks it up and gently tosses it on top of the mini projecting it a full two inches and actually having it airborn for a 10th of a second, do we need the rules to say that this person has technically broken the rules opening the door to that one kid that forgot to take his prozac to call a penalty? Further more would I, as the TD, be soft and basically incompetent, to say it was not a violation and refuse to stroke the player?

p.s.
I will DEFINATELY let that big butt guy know before he throws that his stance is illegal. He's doing this to gain an advantage while the player above isn't.

IMO the part of the rule that says " or any distance towards the target" needs to be omitted and just go with the 2 meters to be a penalty.




:)

Skip, I just don't think you have what it takes to be one these here rules' zealots... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Stroke-stroke-stroke-stroke...etc! :p



Thanks circle, that's the nicest thing anybody's ever said to me on this board. :cool:




:(


I'm sorry, Bill, you are always the epitamy of a gentleman when you address any of us here and of course, and even though you needed to disagree with me on the other thread, I know you were right and you were most kind in the way you did it. I didn't mean to exclude the respect you've shown me. Thanks
Hugs and kisses

IMO the part of the rule that says " or any distance towards the target" needs to be omitted and just go with the 2 meters to be a penalty.




:)




so if I somehow miss my 5 foot putt, it doesn't count cause it didn't go over 2 meters - sweet, no practice throw, no competitive throw, nothing

I think thats the reason for the "anything towards a target" rule... although I believe the wording should be revised...

stupid scenarios like this will happen if allowed

Of course the 5 foot putt would be a competitve throw because it was taken from an active lie. The distance requirements of a practice throw would not apply to it as long as you were standing on your lie, and had not previously thrown from that lie.

yes, but it does point out the silliness of skip arguing that standing at an active lie and tossing your disc to your bag, be it a few inches or not, is not that much different

IMO the part of the rule that says " or any distance towards the target" needs to be omitted and just go with the 2 meters to be a penalty.




:)




so if I somehow miss my 5 foot putt, it doesn't count cause it didn't go over 2 meters - sweet, no practice throw, no competitive throw, nothing

I think thats the reason for the "anything towards a target" rule... although I believe the wording should be revised...

stupid scenarios like this will happen if allowed


I knew this was coming and all I can say is that I realize how difficult it is for some of you to know the difference in a putt and a put. It is neccessary to use "intent" to discern the difference and this makes life very difficult to deal with for some people.
Do you consider it a stroke if the player marks his lie 6 ft. from the basket, sets his bag down to his side while standing behind his disc, taking his putter out, picks up the disc and tosses it down on the bag 2 ft. to his left? Do you have a problem discerning whether he intended for that to be his putt??? Do you consider me a bad TD if I refuse to uphold your stroke call on said player? My silliness must be showing again.

there's no way i'd ever consider you a bad TD, cuz i've been to your events and the simple fact is you're a great TD. there's no harm/no foul in making a call based on your best understanding of the rules at the time you're asked for the decision - thats what TDs do. now, you might be in a technical violation of the sanctioning agreement if you chose to not enforce certain rules just because you disagree with them.

I hear what you're saying, Pat, and I'm really trying to find out how much I'm treading on thin water for refuting interpretation for what I call fair.

what kind of idiot would call a 5 foot putt a practice throw, citing the supposed 2 meter rule?

C'mon guys. Be real about it. It was said elsewhere, just play better and you won't have to nitpick about someone else scratching themselves with a disc, then dropping it in disgust. "Practice Throw!!!!"

considering that they didnt seem to care when a much bigger event held up sunday's round so a big name player could get there and not take late strokes, i dont think they're snooping for tds who employ different interpretations of much more technical rules :) i supppse if players pitch a ~complaint~ there might be a response though.

What gets called in real life and what is described here as a violation are generally two different things.

However, I will enforce the rules as written to the best of my ability whether I think the result is fair or not. It is the player's responsibility to know that the first throw made from an active is the competitive throw and subsequent throws from that spot of greater the 2 meters or toward a target are practice throws.

If you make a habit of violating these rules, someone may very well call you on it someday, and they will be correct. You should know better than to put in that position just because you believe that it does not matter.

I used to pause very slightly before proceeding to the basket when I putted. I was told that it was very close to a falling putt, and would likely be called at some time. Even though I knew that I was not making falling putts, I changed my putting process to make sure there was no doubt.

This is basically the same thing. If you stand on your lie and toss a disc anywhere, it is your competitive throw. If you are not on your lie and toss your disc forward, it is a practice throw. Chances are that you will never be called on it, but why give an opponent an easy stroke if they need one ?

What gets called in real life and what is described here as a violation are generally two different things.

However, I will enforce the rules as written to the best of my ability whether I think the result is fair or not. It is the player's responsibility to know that the first throw made from an active is the competitive throw and subsequent throws from that spot of greater the 2 meters or toward a target are practice throws.

If you make a habit of violating these rules, someone may very well call you on it someday, and they will be correct. You should know better than to put in that position just because you believe that it does not matter.

I used to pause very slightly before proceeding to the basket when I putted. I was told that it was very close to a falling putt, and would likely be called at some time. Even though I knew that I was not making falling putts, I changed my putting process to make sure there was no doubt.

This is basically the same thing. If you stand on your lie and toss a disc anywhere, it is your competitive throw. If you are not on your lie and toss your disc forward, it is a practice throw. Chances are that you will never be called on it, but why give an opponent an easy stroke if they need one ?




exactly!

you summed up the point that skip and others seem to be missing... on the board, we are here to break down the rules and nit pick and see what seems right and wrong, hopefully so we can improve them later...

i personally would not make the call in the scenario skip keeps pointing out, but on this message board, we want to discuss what the rules sound like when followed by a person looking to enforce them - so as gnduke basically said, don't give them anything!

I'm not missing a thing. I understand what Gary is saying. I just feel that we've opened a door for irrelevant confrontation that is detrimental to the spirit of the game. I realize the easiest solution is to leave things as they are printed and say for everyone to learn not to tempt fate, but I don't like the attitude and I know there are a few players out there that don't know what it means to be a gentleman ( something I know is a far more valuable lesson to learn).

I think that what we would all like to see is consistency. Consistency in knowing the Rules, following the Rules, and calling the Rules. Of course, there is room for interpretation difference in almost every rule out there, and that is why we have the appeal process.

Get stroked by your group for throwing your disc to your bag? Fine, make a note of it, then bring it up to the TD after the round. The TD confirms the group's decision? Fine, send a message to the appropriate PDGA contact. Still don't like it? Send a message to the BOD.

I would much rather someone make a call on a borderline violation, and let the group/TD/etc. chain start rather than the person's internally decide that it is not worth the hassle of a discussion and not say anything.

Not only would that assure greater call consistency, it would also bring these borderline calls to light, so that the RC can evaluate and make a ruling!

I have no problem with a TD making a ruling based on

Rule 803.01 F - Rule of Fairness

If any point in dispute
is not covered by the rules, the decision
shall be made in accordance with fairness.
Often a logical extension of the closest
existing rule or the principles embodied
in these rules will provide guidance for
determining fairness.

But, if the TD does believe (or could concede) that an existing rule could be applied to a situation, but, believing that the intent of the player was not to violate that rule, and, in the TD's opinion, the player gained no competitive advantage, chose to make a ruling that is contradictory to said rule, then I would probably believe that the TD did not make the best determination.


Setting up for a 6ft putt, when someone about a foot farther away and behind you putts at the same time, and your disc goes through the chains where the other disc hit, or gets deflected away? What call, if any, do you make?

Same situation, but your putt stays in. Make the same call/no call?

We should not let the consequences of an action determine our reaction to the action.

Group member booms a fairway drive, parks it, you notice a stance violation.

Group member shanks a fairway drive into deep woods, possibly OB. You notice a stance violation.

Do you make the same call for both situation? I hope so.

I believe there was a Q&amp;A several years ago that discussed tossing a disc to your bag. It did not make reference to where you stood, but instead focused on not towards a target and not over 2 meters. I cannot find that Q&amp;A and I am guessing I must be wrong. Does anyone else remember reading it?

I was thinking about this whole tossing-the-disc-to-your-bag deal today, while sweating my bejoobies off playing 8 holes about an hour ago.

What about after a hole out? I normally do not use a mini, I just use the previously thrown disc as my marker. (Normally, there are certainly times when that changes.) So, today I had an upshot end up about 35 feet out, threw a putt from that lie (behind the disc), holed out, and picked up the bag to walk to the basket, retrieve the putter.. Then, I realized I'd left the previous disc at that putt lie. I set the bag down, too hot to carry it even that 70 or so feet.

Is it a practice throw if I toss the disc toward the bag, setting near the basket? What about if I had left the bag some 15 feet away from my putt lie, to avoid being in someone else's way, then before clearing my holed putt, tossed the marker toward the bag?

I have no lie, the hole is complete. Practice throw?

What about tossing the mini toward the bag? What about throwing a paper wad or soda can toward the bag? Or a water bottle?

Disc, yes
Other items, not a practice throw, but very possibly a courtesy violation if it distracted another player, or you did it in any way that could be interpreted as anger or frustration.

I don't want to start a new thread so I'll ask this question here:

We used 10m circles at our last event. If your mini/disc is touching the circle or just inside the circle, are you within 10m OR does your supporting point need to be touching the circle?

If there were no circle and your disc or mini as right at the point of 10m but your stance puts you outside the range, are in or out?

Thanks.

I don't want to start a new thread so I'll ask this question here:

We used 10m circles at our last event. If your mini/disc is touching the circle or just inside the circle, are you within 10m OR does your supporting point need to be touching the circle?

If there were no circle and your disc or mini as right at the point of 10m but your stance puts you outside the range, are in or out?

Thanks.


It is from where your mark is, not where your foot is. So if the back end of the mini (the mark) inside or equal to 10M then you are putting, if the back end of the mini is outside of 10M then it isn't a putt. If you think it is close then just leave your orignal disc onthe ground, that gives you extra length since your is then from the back of the disc where as the mini will basically mark you at the front of the disc.

Read 803.04 C. Looks like if part of your supporting point upon release is within 10m, you can't jump forward after release. However, unlike what Jerry is saying, it looks like if you release from further back than 10m within the 30cm behind your lie, you can jump forward after release since the rule specifically says when you "throw."

The other thing to consider if it's that big of a deal is to just not mark your lie with a mini but leave your disc if it makes a difference in relation to the marked line.

Read 803.04 C. Looks like if part of your supporting point upon release is within 10m, you can't jump forward after release. However, unlike what Jerry is saying, it looks like if you release from further back than 10m within the 30cm behind your lie, you can jump forward after release since the rule specifically says when you "throw."


I disagree Chuck, it isn't the supporting point, it is the mark that counts. See the rule section C
"<font color="red">Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole, is considered a putt.</font> A follow-through after a putt that causes the thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole."

So if it is close and I mark with a mini (inside 10m), I can legally stand 11 inches behind my mini and jump because my stance is outside of 10m...(i was typing when you were typing) It appears to be from the mark, not your point of contact.

see one post higher

whats the call?
#726380 - 08/11/07 04:00 AM



Pat, what are you trolling for at 4am PST?

JC, the rule you posted exactly makes my point not yours. If you release (which by definition is making a "throw") where your foot is beyond 10m but within 30cm behind the mark, you may follow thru. The "measured from the rear of the marker" just gives a reference for where the 10m is measured on the marker itself. Otherwise, some might think the front of a regular disc (used as a marker) to the pipe is the 10m reference. It also is easier to see where the 10m line might pass thru the 30cm behind your lie in case you want to follow thru.

Still don't see how you interpret it as the foot and the mark. Weather or not you can follow through and fall forward (i.e. non-putt vs. putt) is determined by the marker not your foot.

Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole, is considered a putt.

I'm with you, JerryChesterton. This is one of the relatively infrequent instances where the rule (804.04c) is crystal clear. If your throw is within 10m (measured from back edge of your marker, be it mini or golf disc), it is a putt. If you "follow through" sufficiently that you make contact anywhere nearer the target than your marker, bet it mini or golf disc, on a putt, you've committed a stance violation.

There is no other reasonable way to read 803.04c.

whats the call?
#726380 - 08/11/07 04:00 AM



Pat, what are you trolling for at 4am PST?

huh? says 7AM on mine

When we paint 10 m lines, the spray ends up being about 2 cm wide. Is the entire line considered inside 10 m? We say that you have to be entirely outside of the line to be "beyond 10 m", but just wondering if anyone does the opposite (i.e. the inner edge of the painted line marks 10 m).

Cheers,
Steve

Painted line is just for looks. 10m is 10m. If there is any dissension within the group. measure it from the back edge of the marker to the pole.

Yes, ultimately if there is a debate, measure it. If we have a tape.

I'm just wondering about tournaments, when someone goes through the pain of making the lines, what people consider in vs. out. I would hope that kind of thing is announced, but often it is not.

Then you have a guy with his mini inside the ring and saying "Hey, since I'm standing outside the ring (but within 30 cm of the mini) I can jump putt, right?" And the rest of the group shrugs and says "Sure, whatever."

Cheers,
Steve

Now that this has been brought up... I hate it when someone says... Am I outside of 30?...

10m is 32'-9 1/2"

thats alot closer to 33'-0" than 30'-0"

So why aren't we calling it what it is??

Hey? Am I outside of 33??

As a scientist, I prefer metric anyways... ;)

And the rule states "10 m", not the equivalent in feet. But I would say most guys actually don't reference the actual distance, but say "You guys think I'm outside?" with the implicit assumption they mean &gt;10 m. Not outside the realm of normalcy :o

See you in Oroville?
Cheers,
Steve

I hear just about everyone at the norcal events saying

"Am I outside of thirty"

To me that means people are visualizing 30' not almost 33'
That is substaintial amout of distance when asked to guestimate it... I try to mention that sometimes, but it seems like a hassle to have explain how much 10M is in feet....

Yes, I will be there flexing my home course advantage against all the old farts....

For a good start at least, 10m tapes were in the Pro Worlds player packs.

Nice!

I think I will start a movement... From now on I am saying am I outside of 33.....

rule 805.A

10 meters = 32 feet 10 inches for our purposes when no metric tape is available.

I think the key word here is "proof." I would offer the text of Rule 7-2 from the Rules of Golf by the USGA to support my position:

7-2 During Round
A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole.
Between the play of two holes, a player must not make a practice stroke, except that he may practice putting or chipping on or near:
(a) the putting green of the hole last played,(b) any practice putting green, or(c) the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round,provided a practice stroke is not made from a hazard and does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7).
Strokes made in continuing the play of a hole, the result of which has been decided, are not practice strokes.

This rule applies to Match or Stroke play.



Also read the end of Rule 7-2

Note 2: The Committee may, in the conditions of a competition (Rule 33-1), prohibit:
(a) practice on or near the putting green of the hole last played, and(b) rolling a ball on the putting green of the hole last played.

Every stroke play competition I've ever seen (local, high school, PGA Tour, USGA, or otherwise) has prohibited practice on the course during and before/between rounds during the tournament.

Chuck is right, the rules do not specifically prohibit practice on the course during stroke play, but in real life, Note 2 is almost always applied and practice on the course IS prohibited, mainly becuase it slows down play.

Most often, you see practice on the course during match play events like the Ryder Cup and President's Cup.

Chap

Read 803.04 C. Looks like if part of your supporting point upon release is within 10m, you can't jump forward after release. However, unlike what Jerry is saying, it looks like if you release from further back than 10m within the 30cm behind your lie, you can jump forward after release since the rule specifically says when you "throw."


I disagree Chuck, it isn't the supporting point, it is the mark that counts. See the rule section C
"<font color="red">Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole, is considered a putt.</font> A follow-through after a putt that causes the thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole."


Nope, Chuck, gotta disagree. The part in red is the relevant here, it says 10 meters as measured to the marker, not to the stance.
the rest is about falling putt, nothing to do with the distance.

BUT, the relevant question (for RZs of the hardest core) remains--is the distance measured from the rear of the pole on the LOP, the middle, or the front?? (It was mentioned above that it's the rear, but the rules don't say that that I've found in the last 5 minutes of looking...)

steve

Just going on the wording of "base of the pole" I'd have to say it's on the line of play where the pole meets the playing surface. Since there is only one point where the pole meets the playing surface on the line of play, I'd have to say it is measured from there.

[QUOTE]
Line of Play: The imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through the center of the marker disc and beyond. This line has no thickness; therefore one support point must be directly behind the center of the marker.