to be honest i am going to vote no on the tax
i am tired of taxation without representation :confused:

Ok. I may be confused on some situations, but I thought the 2025 tax was suppose to also go towards the river?

From what i've briefly read and heard it seems like they are trying to double tax us or mislead in the original vote.

Guess I should've looked at the small print and then could've gotten my answers.

Ok. I may be confused on some situations, but I thought the 2025 tax was suppose to also go towards the river?

From what i've briefly read and heard it seems like they are trying to double tax us or mislead in the original vote.



EXACTLY!! LaFortune got the YES vote from Tulsa taxpayers and part of the vision 2025 was river development, apparently only a small fraction of the funds was to be directed to river development. So small that we have to revisit this crap. I would like to see more parks, restaurants, bars and shops on the river but this island stuff is so stupid. The river is not even that wide, how do they plan on putting a stinking 5 star hotel out there with a mall attached to it?

I am voting NO.

but this island stuff is so stupid. The river is not even that wide, how do they plan on putting a stinking 5 star hotel out there with a mall attached to it?



I'm pretty sure that the tax we're voting on has nothing to do with putting islands in the river. It's mostly improving the infrastructure around the river, and also narrowing the river to increase the amount of water year-round. I think they are also planning on adding a low-water dam somewhere out south, as well as raising the dam at Zink Lake (31st St).

Another part of it is possibly running a channel through downtown close to the new BOK Arena (I'm guessing similar to OKC's "river").

"The Channels", as they called the island project, was so stupid, it basically disappeared before it even got started.

River Project Overview (http://www.ourriveryes.com/overview/)

$282 Million Public River Plan
Ensuring the River Flows with Water
Sand Springs low-water dam�.$24.7 million
Zink Dam modifications�.$15.45 million
River channel modifications, bank stabilization
and habitat improvements�.$90 million
Jenks low-water dam�.$24.7 million
Sub-total�.$154.85 million

Enhancing the River�s Economic Value
Land Acquisition & Site Development,
Tulsa, Bixby, Broken Arrow, Sand Springs, Jenks�.$57.4 million
Sub-total�.$57.4 million

Connecting People to the River
Pedestrian Bridges at 41st and 61st streets
and Downtown Connectors�.$45 million
Sub-total�.$45 million
Project contingency funds�.$25 million


The result is a river with a constant flow of water between downtown around 1st to the Jenks area at approximately 106th that provides for the multiple goals of recreation, aesthetics, flood control and wildlife habitat. If Tulsa County voters approve public funding, the private sector has agreed to donate $117 million to beautify the banks of the Arkansas River with picnic areas, parks, fountains and water features, improved recreation areas, better public restrooms, enhanced lighting, safety features and more.

Ben, are you going to vote yes or no?

Please note that there is no way to fund the increased insect control that will be needed with all of the new non moving water that we are going to create. If you like the West Nile now, you will love what you get with more stagnant water from newly created lakes (ponds), and if you run aeration fountains then who pays for the electricity to run them? since we cannot afford to keep all the street lights lit anyway.
We do not need more new things to maintain since we cannot maintain our existing improvements!

How about we fix the streets and bridges first........

Mike, I don't know yet. The more I read about it, the more I lean towards a yes vote. There are negative things about it that I don't have an answer for. Martin's points included. I know that if it's wildly successful, we won't be having the budget problems that have plagued us of late. (Think about it: disc golf courses getting mowed more often than quarterly! :p )

I know that the city needs a good jump-start. I tend to think that, as the major natural feature, the river must be developed at some point. I couldn't begin to tell you whether this project is the right way to do it, but I like how it sounds.

How about we fix the streets and bridges first........



This was the original reason why I wanted to vote no. But the River tax has nothing to do with the road situation and will not put it any further behind. I vote yes.

i am painfully uninformed on this.
however, looking at the good things MAPS has done in OKC, it would certainly be easy to justify the .5 cent tax increase. However, were not going to see an immediate impact. It took quite a number of years for OKCs citizens to reap the benefits.
Chances are i'm going to vote yes.

how much taxes is to much taxes
i feel like every year i pay more and more taxes
and every year i see less of the things i think would make our community better
my main problem with more taxes is like i said taxation with out representation
as all of us do pay higher taxes every year who is in public office that represents the average disc golfer
i dare say no one in oklahoma
put these types of things on the ballot during football season and no body votes or cares enough to vote
and what happens taxes go up
i would prefer my savings account or personal assers to go up and then i may be inclined to votes for higher taxes
what will be next ???
i wish jose would just run for public office
then if he says we need it i am down

How about we fix the streets and bridges first........



This was the original reason why I wanted to vote no. But the River tax has nothing to do with the road situation and will not put it any further behind. I vote yes.



Jake, I sort of disagree with you. The reason streets and bridges are failing is because of budget shortfalls. This particular vote does not directly affect that type of infrastructure, but the hope is that, in the long run, it will indirectly affect these types of problems, by hopefully improving the economy, which increases sales tax receipts.

On the other hand, maybe we agree... ;)

Don't get me started on Taxes, Jay. :mad:

I own a businees and the better I do, the more they tax me. It gives me no incentive to grow my business, when between Federal, state, local, franchise, FICA, FUTA, preperation fees, ect.... they take a huge percentage of any thing I make. I have considered asking if I can change from a citizen to an alien.

the river tax is total horsecrap, another way of tulsa trying to compete with okcity. the developers will build their resturants, apartments, and whatever else they can dream up whether the river has water in it or not! the crime in tulsa is getting out of control with the shootings, robberies, breakins, gang activity, car theft, pole hole thieves etc. i would think a lower crime rate would be more attractive to people interested in moving here than water in a river. tulsa already has a great river parks system with all the trails, an amphitheater, disc golf, pedestrian bridge and all the natureworks statues. how many other towns have that? and then there is the condition of the roads, but that is another fish to fry!
it's the wrong tax at the wrong time. just my two cents worth :D

I agree quit trying to expand on what is ok and start renewing tulsa as a whole fix up the run down parts of tulsa and make it a complete community not what the rich want!!!!!

who knew all the disc golfers felt so strong about this issue
what a great debate this has turned into

Higher taxes are a discouragement not an attraction to potential residents. If river development was a money making proposition then the private sector would be doing it to make money. Since this is a government sponsored deal all we are talking about is building another round of stuff that we will be later taxed to maintain. The function of local government should only be health and safety. Since we are faced with a shortage of police officers, unsafe roads and bridges, and the stated inability to keep all of the installed street lights lit, I can only guess how high the tax rate will climb in order to provide maintenance for all of the new stuff!
Let us learn how to maintain and upgrade what we have before we blow our grand children's money to maintain more things.
For those who do not understand taxes here is how it works:
your income is taxed by the federal tax the social sec. tax the medicare tax the state tax add to that the sales tax gasoline tax and for some property tax. Gee now you want more added to your taxes?
No, what they are asking is not much but remember what it is being added to and then think about what happens at the grocery store when you buy $100.00 of food and have to pay $110.00 at the register.
If taxes were a good thing then we would still be British!

I think it is a way for the private sector/investors of this to stick it to the folks that pay the taxes.

The gains for them is much greater than the taxes that would be generated from it or what they would pay.

Just shooting from the hip with no educated research done.

You're almost right with that one Thong, how ever I think it might be more appropriate to say they suck it from the tax payers instead of stick it to them.

Like this

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/state/ag/pics/410-1.jpg

the problem w/ sales taxes they are extremely regressive. meaning the people that make the least are the people most impacted by them. the grocery store example is a good one.

however is this tax increase permanent? would it be due for renewal in 10 -15 years? I'm not seeing that anywhere on the page Dover linked. Edit: I see it now. 7 years. doh.

With limited resources, politicians pandering and lowering taxes w/o explaining where missing revenue is going to come from, we reap what we sow. I don't like paying taxes, either. I resent that my tax money is being used in Iraq, on locking up non-violent drug offenders for 15 years in Oklahoma. My problem lies w/ the priorities of the people that get elected, not the taxes per se.

Atleast there are only 3 people that are not registered to vote. That is pretty cool.

Judging from some of the negative responses I�ve seen so far from the DG�ers on this thread I can only assume that some of you still think the earth is flat. I wonder if some of you assume that if �High Times� magazine is not behind it then it must be wrong. :confused:

Taxation without representation?...At least you get to vote on this one and yes based on the consensus of this group it will probably fail. When is the last time you attended a public meeting on the subject? There�s a new witch in town and she must be burned. When is the last time you attended a TDSA meeting? Do you really know what�s going on there? Probably not unless all the sudden weekly mini�s went from $5 to $10 and all the admins vote themselves a yearly salary. ;)

When some of you moved your families to the Owasso, Jenks, & Union school districts you probably knew that for the most part, people in these communities never vote down a school bond issue. You pay the extra taxes to keep your children safe from the druggies and alky�s that lurk in the TPS system. The roads are better in those areas and the cops probably respond quicker also. So if you kid ends up in jail then what went wrong? Did you think the more popular those communities became that sooner or later the taxes there would go down? Jenks and Union are all about jacking money toward their HS football facilities and Owasso?....Well why do you think Wise spends all of his time at Tulsa parks? If living there is sooo expensive to the point that you�re just making it week to week then maybe you should have thought about that before you had those kids and moved there in the first place? I understand Twoputt�s point of view because he�s got to deal with the �horse� & �Jill� tax. Too bad he can�t claim those as a �business� expense. :p

Where was all this concern when the Mayor was updating her new digs downtown with your money?

I would like to see the river updated for the same reasons I�m putting a new course in at Chandler. I guess my thinking is �more is more�. I thought �The Channels� idea sucked but I like this new proposal combining private money with public cash and I would like to see more activities available down there along with more access to the west side of the river.

I feel the �no� votes will come mostly from the uninformed and those that think the world is just out to get them. To assume that �craps� seems to be all you ever rolled before doesn�t mean there is not a seven or eleven out there with your name on it. I feel the chances for this river project to be successful are a lot better than any high profile band like U2 or Aerosmith coming to the new downtown arena that Vision 2020 brought you.

If you can�t afford the 0.04 tax for seven or less years then vote no and keep voting yes to those school bonds. Sooner or later you can just put your life on auto-pilot and the teachers and school administration will raise your kids for you. I don�t have any kids but I don�t mind paying for yours.

I guess what I�m really trying to say is be informed. There is no vision for tomorrow if your eyes are fixed on yesterday. Death and taxes are for certain. This is not the same thing as paying the government $2500 for a toilet bowl. This is about connecting the east side with the west side of the river and expanding recreational attractions on both sides. Did you hear that????.....�Recreation�, �Visual Beauty�,��It�s the colors man, the colors!!! :cool:

Higher taxes are a discouragement not an attraction to potential residents. If river development was a money making proposition then the private sector would be doing it to make money. Since this is a government sponsored deal all we are talking about is building another round of stuff that we will be later taxed to maintain. The function of local government should only be health and safety. Since we are faced with a shortage of police officers, unsafe roads and bridges, and the stated inability to keep all of the installed street lights lit, I can only guess how high the tax rate will climb in order to provide maintenance for all of the new stuff!
Let us learn how to maintain and upgrade what we have before we blow our grand children's money to maintain more things.
For those who do not understand taxes here is how it works:
your income is taxed by the federal tax the social sec. tax the medicare tax the state tax add to that the sales tax gasoline tax and for some property tax. Gee now you want more added to your taxes?
No, what they are asking is not much but remember what it is being added to and then think about what happens at the grocery store when you buy $100.00 of food and have to pay $110.00 at the register.
If taxes were a good thing then we would still be British!



Ok, I had a good long post, and the system lost it. I'm not typing it all out again. I do want to ask Martin (and any others that oppose this plan), what would your solution be to Tulsa's current plight (budget shortfalls, population exodus to suburbs, etc.). Do you really think the only problem with our city is bad roads and high taxes? I personally don't think any developer is going to look at those problems, and think to himself, "Let's go drop a billion dollars in this struggling city, and leave lots of the land open for public use and beautification, and maybe correct their failing economy." Maybe you're right, and this is the wrong plan, or the wrong time, but why? When is the right time? Never? Do we just ignore these problems? If not, when do we address them?

Thanks for your indulgence. ;)

I'll probably vote yes. I just hope we will actually see some **** results from this.

I'll probably vote yes. I just hope we will actually see some **** results from this.



we're likely to see some "dam" results.
sorry I couldn't resist.
/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I agree with your line of thinking Ben. Who knows if it is the right time to do these types of things. But, I think it worth a try and make something really cool with lots of benefits.

The only tax that I would nave a problem with is more income tax. I just really don't care about paying the extra .004 sales tax. Maybe because I'm Rich B***ch.

I really wish that all of the uninformed No River Tax voters would look at the actual issues. Most still think we are voting on the Channels. :confused:

Look at what Houston has done to Tulsa over the past 30 years. Tulsa was the oil capital of the world and Houston stole it from us company by company with lower taxes and cheaper land. they did not spend multi millions of dollars of public money to build a gimmick and hope people would move their business down they they just plain enticed and bribed them to do it.
The city and County of Tulsa mismanages millions of the dollars that we already pay them, largely it is done by non elected civil service types that cannot be fired or influenced and the remainder is blown in bad policy decisions. the last straw for me was when the mayor indicated that they would no longer pay for the electric to keep the street lights lit do to costs. No i do not think that the city should be getting a new city hall and i feel that all paid politicians are overpaid as service should be an obligation not a paycheck.
I still hold to the idea that any idea that is a good idea can be sold to a private business for them to develop, pay for and run at a profit. if an idea requires subsidies then it is not a good idea. You would not willingly put money into a retirement account if you knew that it would lose value over time why should the public be forced to pay for and maintain public works that are not self sustaining. at lest the turnpikes pay for their own maintenance from the tolls and do not take money from the general fund or the gasoline tax for their upkeep. And yes i voted no for vision 2000 and no again on 2025. i think Henry Premeux should have built his own arena for the Talons since he is the prime one to benefit from the new arena.
I do not go down town willingly because i do not wish to be accounted by urban outdoors men and crazy people as i walk down the street.

Look at what Houston has done to Tulsa over the past 30 years. Tulsa was the oil capital of the world and Houston stole it from us company by company with lower taxes and cheaper land. they did not spend multi millions of dollars of public money to build a gimmick and hope people would move their business down they they just plain enticed and bribed them to do it.

Sidearm, are you "in" the oil business?

I think the main reason that Houston is the oil capitol now is not because they stole it from Tulsa, but rather...economically it makes much more sense to have the oil business closer to the gulf, among other major economic impacts.
You may be partially right about lower taxes and cheaper land, but to suggest that Houston stole the "title" of oil capitol of the world is a bit weak. :(

just my .02

I'm not sure that the Houston-Tulsa comparison is especially relevant, considering the fact that Tulsa's population is less than 1/5th that of Houston's. I'm guessing that the oil immigration has more to do with the facts that 1)there is no American oil being pumped, and 2)that Houston is a major international hub.

I'm still not convinced that raising taxes alone is sufficient to sustain a no vote on this. Are public improvements that are not self-sustaining bad things? I'm thinking McClure Park, Haikey Creek Park, Mohawk Park, etc. These types of things I consider to be assets, and, like the house I live in, even once they are built, require upkeep. If, every time it rains, I've got more water in my living room than Big Splash, do I stand firm and wring out the towels, or do I begrudgingly hand over the credit card to the roofing company?

I think maybe the difference between us is that I perceive the city needing some upgrades. It's raining in our laps during Monday Night Football, and our towels are beginning to smell like the creek at McClure.

41st Street looking north. I wonder if that land on the west side by the soccer fields would be favorable for a DG course? :)

http://www.ourriveryes.com/images/maps/large/River-Rendering_No-Labels.jpg

41st Overview

More parking but # 18 basket becomes a water hole. :o

http://www.ourriveryes.com/images/maps/large/027-41st-St-composite-3.jpg

Sand Springs Waterfront....

I wonder if they'll have paddle boats!!! :)

http://www.ourriveryes.com/images/maps/large/013-SS-Persp-G.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/allfinday/map.jpg


:D:D:D

Winz...I like your thinking. Plenty of lines to that basket. Personally, I prefer the skip hyzer off the kayak. :D

[QUOTE]
I agree with your line of thinking Ben. Who knows if it is the right time to do these types of things. But, I think it worth a try and make something really cool with lots of benefits.

The only tax that I would nave a problem with is more income tax. I just really don't care about paying the extra .004 sales tax. Maybe because I'm Rich B***ch.

I really wish that all of the uninformed No River Tax voters would look at the actual issues. Most still think we are voting on the Channels. :confused: ... that would include myself ... I originally thought "Channels" ... ugh ... [/quote
.
... but now , after reading FurDog's synopsis and opie-onions , I will choose to vote yep ...
.
.
... FurDog , you BELONG in POLITICS ... :D

Oh i know that they did not steal the title they just moved all the companies (and not just from Tulsa) to Houston. Yes i am in the business and i had a father also in the business and it was incentive laden packages that moved the corporate offices to Houston! Nothing done in the offices that were in Tulsa was anything that needed to be close to oil. All of the corporate offices were paper mills for the vast amount of book work that goes with the industry and could have been done from Timbuktu if they had good phone lines and cheap operating overhead. The only part of the oil business that needs to be close to the exploration and production areas are production facilities and refineries, the offices that Tulsa has lost over the years were corporate offices with accountants and lawyers royalty distribution departments and accounts receivables / pay-ables, none of which needs to be near the Gulf Coast of any other place in particular. Huston just out hustled Tulsa when it came to retaining our corporate base and now we are paying for it.

Well no matter what differences individual members may have, I would think that as a club, the TDSA should go on record as supporting this even if it�s in spirit only. Since we have chosen to support private courses with a donations before, we shouldn�t have a problem projecting verbal support towards a public park improvement at a park where many of us played DG for the very first time, and a park that continues to draw in lots of new members and cash that benefits both the club and the sport. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Now that the TDSA is on record supporting the River Tax why would anyone in this city vote no?

Does Kathy "the terrible" Taylor know about this? She will be so pumped up once she finds out.

"Huston just out hustled Tulsa when it came to retaining our corporate base"

This is more what I was thinking.

back to the original topic...river tax

Let us hope that there is still a place for the course on the river. you all know how disc golf courses are allocated space based on the principal of lest desirable and usable land. if the river area becomes a high demand area there may well be no place for us or the rugby field any more.

no more rugby field?!!!

NO WAY River Tax! :D

When I saw the proposed look at 41st and Riverside I was thinking the same thing...odds are it will be pulled.

Once completed maybe we can create a brand new course.

Judging from the concept drawing, I don't think the course will be affected other than # 18 basket and possibly # 1 & # 10 tee-pads.

Judging from the concept drawing, I don't think the course will be affected other than # 18 basket and possibly # 1 & # 10 tee-pads.


.
.
... FurDog , your eye is as sharp as your smell ... :D...

I really wish that all of the uninformed No River Tax voters would look at the actual issues. Most still think we are voting on the Channels. :confused:



i wouldn'nt consider myself uninformed, the channels was an even dumber idea than this, i just think there are better ways to spend a new tax. as a resident of skiatook my house is about 100 feet inside the tulsa county line, this will not benifit this town. this should have been a city of tulsa issue, not the county.

on the other hand if they want to make improvements on bird creek............ /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bird creek gets an improvement every time it rains hard. :D

... ( reflecting on current polly-tix and whiskers ) ...
.
... I think Roger Daltry said it best :
.
... " ... this is no Social Crisis ; just-another grizzly Day for you ... "

[QUOTE]
I agree with your line of thinking Ben. Who knows if it is the right time to do these types of things. But, I think it worth a try and make something really cool with lots of benefits.
The only tax that I would nave a problem with is more income tax. I just really don't care about paying the extra .004 sales tax. Maybe because I'm Rich B***ch.

I really wish that all of the uninformed No River Tax voters would look at the actual issues. Most still think we are voting on the Channels. :confused: ... that would include myself ... I originally thought "Channels" ... ugh ... [/quote
.
... but now , after reading FurDog's synopsis and opie-onions , I will choose to vote yep ...
.
.
... FurDog , you BELONG in POLITICS ... :Dwayne, I am almost sure I am more informed about the river tax than 95% of discgolfers. I work for the cot. I am voting hell no!!!!!!! :mad:how many times are you gonna let them take your azzzzzzs to the cleaners? :cool:channels? haha fix the frickin roads and get the pools o-pen, you heard mr.turner :D


:eek:

if the tdsa is on record for supporting the riverrattax, then I will pull my lifetime time membership. :eek: :p ;) go read mike bates in urban tulsa weekly in his column about the river. and Ben, you work for one of those conglomerate coorporations that sends you letters telling you how to vote. ;)be your own man and dont believe the hype.

if the tdsa is on record for supporting the riverrattax, ... nah , actually T.D.S.A. doesn't carry "political" affiliations ... ... some of the Members make their thoughts known , but that's as fur as that goes ... then I will pull my lifetime time membership. :eek: :p ;) go read mike bates in urban tulsa weekly in his column about the river. and Ben, you work for one of those conglomerate coorporations that sends you letters telling you how to vote. ;)be your own man and dont believe the hype.

if the tdsa is on record for supporting the riverrattax, then I will pull my lifetime time membership. :eek: :p ;) go read mike bates in urban tulsa weekly in his column about the river. and Ben, you work for one of those conglomerate coorporations that sends you letters telling you how to vote. ;)be your own man and dont believe the hype.



Do you have a suggestion as to why I shouldn't vote yes? The only thing anyone will say is,"No new taxes!", or "Fix the streets!"

I've not made up my mind, but if the only reason for opposition is that you don't like taxes, that's not very persuasive, at least not for me.

For anyone interested, here is the article Zooc was so kind to refer to...

A River Tax for Whom? (http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A18017)

Go ahead and vote yes, Ben. Zooc will just cancel it out. ;)

other posts explained some of why you shouldnt.... basically, they havent manged the cost of the arena(over budget), and thejobs they talk about on the commercial is wrong. those would be construction job ect.....oh maybe a hot dog vendor here and there, a few condom distributor :o, and as previously stated, the 2025 should have covered the dams. I could go on and on, but everyone should do their homework before giving a bland check to the county and city ..... oh, I think BA has the right idea... :)

thanks for posting that

Thank you for the article link, it is nice to read an eloquent elaboration of my own gut feelings about this proposed tax plan. I now feel even more motivated to get off work and cast my negative vote on election day. But I do wonder if anybody has investigated to see who will make the most money from this tax should it pass, after all I know deep down inside that somebody(s) are going to profit from all this and that it was never motivated by less than ulterior motives

Ok if this passes where is the application for me to file for a "grant" from the city to invest in my business to develop along the river.

I want to get my fingers on some of this money.

Ok I've done a little more reading and still have not come to a final conclusion. What I have started thinking is why does it require the taxes to be passed for these private corporations to do the work on these parks, why don't they go ahead and start it to let the citizens see what benefits can happen when a little bit of work is done to the river?

Why do they have to wait and see?

Back to work for a minute will elaborate more of my useless banter.

thejobs they talk about on the commercial is wrong. those would be construction job ect.....oh maybe a hot dog vendor here and there,



What are you talking about? Are these your own assertations or do you have any actual facts to back up this line of thinking?

How could you possibly think that an entertainment district on the river won't create any jobs?

Its close minded statements like these from NO voters that will unlitmately defeate this bill. I just wish that people were more open minded about it.

Feel free to call a few commercial real estate brokers for rental rates in the down town area quotes will be on a dollars per square foot basis. then correlate the price differences between old buildings requiring work and maintenance as opposed to newer construction that require little or no rework. then after you have your comparables try and get estimates from some of the hot shots behind this latest plan and see how comprabable the rates will be on the proposed (see vapor wear) new development. After you have done all of this research put together a business plan and see if you can get any capital backing for a new venture on the "proposed river development district" and let me know.
I hate to rain on your parade but downtown development is not cheap and most folks do not have the start up capital to deal with it, shoot most of us could not scrape together enough to get or build a hot dog cart that would pass this city's code and permitting process. oops :oi forgot the city ran all of the cart vendors off from down town a few years ago!

I support any River Tax that will eliminate the Riverside Disc Golf course :p

If they would just rip it and put it somewhere that someone won't get maimed by an errant shot.

OK, if we want to tear out out first disc golf course ever installed in Tulsa then so be it. But if they do i hope they relocate it to Turkey Mountain and we can call it the Broke Back Course at Turkey Mountain :oand play in the shadow of that giant statue that has yet to be built. :confused:

I support any River Tax that will eliminate the Riverside Disc Golf course :p

If they would just rip it and put it somewhere that someone won't get maimed by an errant shot.



Wow, that hurts. I love my little course.

Steady Ed must be rolling in his grave right now :o

I agree it needs some tweeking. I was watching the news on 6 last night. They were showing maps of the proposals. Something caught my eye so I backed the DVR up and sure enough, just north of the 41st parking area was a statement in parenthesis that said (Revised Disc Golf course). That sounds like good news to me..

mr death by par
not sure if you know how open minded i am or not
but i feel like i am a pretty open minded guy
and most of my political views or opinions what ever are pretty openminded to all people regardless of the beliefs
but when our state and local governments have not proven themselves capable of taking care of the local and states business (schools, streets, health care, ................ i think you get the idea)
i can not continue to support them by just ading more tax dollars

That kind of sounds like "my mommy and daddy beat me when I was a child and that's the reason I am the way I am".

Schools?....Move to Jenks. :cool:

Streets?.....Ride a bike. :o

Health Care?.....Quit smoking. :(

Not trusting the people that represent you?.....Run for public office. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif....The TDSA has spots open. :eek:

Not all NO voters are closed minded and uninformed.

Only the ones spouting off and making errant statements without backing them up with any real facts.

I just like spouting off.

I can see why though the banks are pushing a yes vote.

I support any River Tax that will eliminate the Riverside Disc Golf course :p

If they would just rip it and put it somewhere that someone won't get maimed by an errant shot.



Wow, that hurts. I love my little course.

Steady Ed must be rolling in his grave right now :o

I agree it needs some tweeking. I was watching the news on 6 last night. They were showing maps of the proposals. Something caught my eye so I backed the DVR up and sure enough, just north of the 41st parking area was a statement in parenthesis that said (Revised Disc Golf course). That sounds like good news to me..



I'm pretty sure Chandler was first....also the River is one of the most dangerous courses I have EVER seen and I have played over 250.

The course is a FAR cry from the original Steady Ed track. Nearly all the changes that have been made on that course have been for the worse ....Holes 1,2,5,7,10,12,13,14,18 all have changed from when Ed designed it. Your right he would be rolling over in his grave if he could see what it has turned into.

Hopefully when the disc golf course is revised, they have someone that knows what they are doing re-design it so no one will get their grill knocked out by a errant shot.

... Riverside > 1979
... McClure > 1980
... Haikey > 1980
... Chandler > 1981
... Mack Taylor > 1981
.

Exactly, if the course does get re-designed maybe we can keep from throwing hyzers into people running.

That course is indeed dangerous.

... Riverside > 1979
... McClure > 1980
... Haikey > a few months later in 1980
... Chandler > 1981
... Mack Taylor > a few months later in 1981
.

... ? ... most dangerous Course ? ... nah ...

Exactly, if the course does get re-designed maybe we can keep from throwing hyzers into people running.

That course is indeed dangerous.



AMEN!!!!!

Holes 2,5,6,10,14,15,16,17,18 are all very dangerous throwing at or over walking paths....If I was responsible for the River Parks I would have closed that course YEARS ago.

I'll NEVER play it again in its current layout, not sure you could pay me enough to play it...Just because I don't want to be sued for hitting someone at that course...

I have already had a close call out there when I hit someone on hole 2 and it knocked off a chunk of a dudes ear.

... ? ... most dangerous Course ? ... nah ...


.
... AND :
.
... just to prove it ; I'm going to play it tonight :eek: ; in the Dark ! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ...

... ? ... most dangerous Course ? ... nah ...


.
... AND :
.
... just to prove it ; I'm going to play it tonight :eek: ; in the Dark ! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ...



Going up against the ole OU v TU game....expect ones of people out there tonight

... ? ... most dangerous Course ? ... nah ...


.
.
... sigh ... visibilty anywhere between quarter-mile to 1/2-mile ...

How can you think 11's tee is dangerous at Haikey and none are dangerous at the River?

... ? ... most dangerous Course ? ... nah ...


.
... AND :
.
... just to prove it ; I'm going to play it tonight :eek: ; in the Dark ! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ...



Going up against the ole OU v TU game....expect ones of people out there tonight


.
.
... nah , we'll probably cap out at 2 1/2 Men ... ;) ... we'll be dune our best fer the ol' Double-O ... :D

How can you think 11's tee is dangerous at Haikey and none are dangerous at the River?


.
... I don't see # 11 as "dangerous" ... 11 Haikey is only "dangerous" when that shelter # 5 is an use , or volleyballers , or kids-games are in the works ...
.
... the issue on that hole will be the new RestRoom building that County has mapped out there ... we'll have to adjust things at that time ...

... ? ... most dangerous Course ? ... nah ...



Riverside is the only course where I have accidentally hit a pedestrian. It happened on Hole 18, I threw a hyzer and let it go right and a biker conveniently ran into my disc. You gotta hope nobody is coming over that bridge. Not to mention holes 3, 4 and 5 basket right next to the road. At the Riverside Glide this year a car jumped the curb on hole 3, scared the crap out of everybody.

I can't think of another course where pedestrians are as big an issue. At night you should have no problems, if people are running riverside at night their idiots.

Accidentally hit a pedestrian?? LOL

[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
. Your right he would be rolling over in his grave if he could see what it has turned into.





I thought about my post at lunch, turning over in his grave would be difficult due to the cremation... Still a good figure of speech :cool:

Weren't his ashes inserted in Disc around the world???

I thought about my post at lunch, turning over in his grave would be difficult due to the cremation... Still a good figure of speech

Weren't his ashes inserted in Disc around the world???

if that is the case he has been turning over for a while now

I thought about my post at lunch, turning over in his grave would be difficult due to the cremation... Still a good figure of speech

Weren't his ashes inserted in Disc around the world???

if that is the case he has been turning over for a while now


.
.
... understable discs ? ... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ... as I knew Ed , he was always a pretty stable guy ...

if this "take from the poor to entertain the rich" river tax passes will it have any effect on the riverside course?

a local disc golf legend asked me to pass this along to you disc golfers i mean voters
Each year in Oklahoma tax payers spend 30 MILLION on housing,feeding,educating and providing FREE health care to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. this illegal issue has forced many rule hospitals to close there doors to the local tax payers of that city.
our Mayor, Cathy Taylor is trying to make Tulsa a sanctuary city, AFTER, house bill 1804 was passed with flying colors. House bill 1804 ends all support to illegals in Oklahoma. a law that many cities and towns are adopting around America due to the MILLIONS of dollars TAX PAYERS pay to fund illegals and there private health care program.sending 'ILLEGALS' to college for free.not just any old college. But, colleges like Oklahoma university and Oklahoma State University and last but NOT least Tulsa University.
Now, how many disc golfers have FREE HEALTH CARE? how many disc golfers have FREE COLLEGE TUITION for them selves and their children? how many disc golfers can LIVE in Tulsa for free. how many disc golfers can EAT FOR FREE. how many disc golfer can BREAK THE LAW each and every day with out recourse from law enforcement. BREAKING THE LAW means. DRIVING without a drivers license DRIVING without INSURANCE, walking ,working , and driving WITHOUT any form of identification. working in our great town without paying tax's. and last but not LEAST just being here in Tulsa or even in America THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW. AND OUR MAYOR TURNS A BLIND EYE TO THIS ISSUE as do those who want to build the 'RIVER PROJECT with cheep illegal labor. lets ask our Mayor if she has any plans on NOT ALLOWING ILLEGALS to work on the river project. lets just see how she answers that question.
If Oklahoma / Tulsa spent all the money that we pay to all the ILLEGALS in our state and city we WOULD NOT have to be taxed for a project that to the elitist call "my precious". all they can see, smell and think of is "my precious" a project that will bring more illegals into our town /city so the elitist can make more money.
It's the fleecing of Tulsa under the guise of humanity and a false sense of fulfillment. like we the tax payers have really done some thing good, like feeding our homeless,taking care of our sick and injured.made sure that or children have a proper education.class room with less than 50 children in them, and how about paying our teachers what they should make?
'THE JOBS' that our Mayor and backers of project are on the lowest pay scale of the labor force. that way you'll have to work two or three jobs to make ends meet.
THINGS THAT MAKE YOU GO HMMMM

if this "take from the poor to entertain the rich" river tax passes will it have any effect on the riverside course?



Seems to me the rich will cover more of this than the poor because "THE RICH" buy more things and therefore pay more sales tax.

Even the illegals would have to pay on this one. :o

a local disc golf legend asked me to pass this along to you disc golfers i mean voters
Each year in Oklahoma tax payers spend 30 MILLION on housing,feeding,educating and providing FREE health care to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. this illegal issue has forced many rule hospitals to close there doors to the local tax payers of that city.
our Mayor, Cathy Taylor is trying to make Tulsa a sanctuary city, AFTER, house bill 1804 was passed with flying colors. House bill 1804 ends all support to illegals in Oklahoma. a law that many cities and towns are adopting around America due to the MILLIONS of dollars TAX PAYERS pay to fund illegals and there private health care program.sending 'ILLEGALS' to college for free.not just any old college. But, colleges like Oklahoma university and Oklahoma State University and last but NOT least Tulsa University.
Now, how many disc golfers have FREE HEALTH CARE? how many disc golfers have FREE COLLEGE TUITION for them selves and their children? how many disc golfers can LIVE in Tulsa for free. how many disc golfers can EAT FOR FREE. how many disc golfer can BREAK THE LAW each and every day with out recourse from law enforcement. BREAKING THE LAW means. DRIVING without a drivers license DRIVING without INSURANCE, walking ,working , and driving WITHOUT any form of identification. working in our great town without paying tax's. and last but not LEAST just being here in Tulsa or even in America THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW. AND OUR MAYOR TURNS A BLIND EYE TO THIS ISSUE as do those who want to build the 'RIVER PROJECT with cheep illegal labor. lets ask our Mayor if she has any plans on NOT ALLOWING ILLEGALS to work on the river project. lets just see how she answers that question.
If Oklahoma / Tulsa spent all the money that we pay to all the ILLEGALS in our state and city we WOULD NOT have to be taxed for a project that to the elitist call "my precious". all they can see, smell and think of is "my precious" a project that will bring more illegals into our town /city so the elitist can make more money.
It's the fleecing of Tulsa under the guise of humanity and a false sense of fulfillment. like we the tax payers have really done some thing good, like feeding our homeless,taking care of our sick and injured.made sure that or children have a proper education.class room with less than 50 children in them, and how about paying our teachers what they should make?
'THE JOBS' that our Mayor and backers of project are on the lowest pay scale of the labor force. that way you'll have to work two or three jobs to make ends meet.
THINGS THAT MAKE YOU GO HMMMM



This would be none other than Mr John Green. He asked me to post the same thing but instead I have offered to sponsor his PDGA membership for next year on the condition that he post a new conspircy theory at least once a week. I miss the old days, the fighting, and all the drama that came with it. :(

Bring back Brother Love by writing in his name at the TDSA elections!!! :cool::)

The Free College education, Health care, and Free food allegations are all false and unsubstantiated.

If anyone out there thinks that getting rid of illegal immigrants will save the taxpayers money they are sorely mistaken.

Also I am pretty sure that the 30 million dollar figure got pulled right out of someones anus.

The Free College education, Health care, and Free food allegations are all false and unsubstantiated.

If anyone out there thinks that getting rid of illegal immigrants will save the taxpayers money they are sorely mistaken.




You are obviously talking out your arse again.

DHS has stated, that over 2,600 children were born to illegal citizens in Oklahoma hospitals last year � this is greater than five percent of all births in the state,�
In 2002 the average cost of a child birth in the State was $8800. That figure has continued to rise at an annual rate of about 15% per year, so to bring us current it is now around $13,000.
So Jake how do you figure its all a misconception at
2,600 x $13,000 = $33,800,00.00?
That is money right out of the State coffers of which came from you and I, the legal tax payers.
Now, those illegaly born children are legal citizens of illegal parents in the poverty level that can get free health care, free school lunches and free college tutiton.

Just because you need them for your job doesn't make it a missconception.

Wake up FOOL, they're bleeding us dry. :mad:

You want numbers? I can throw them at you all day long. :mad:

Ok dave, you're right/ I'm wrong.

****! I'm not Pitchford, we can debate this if you want. :D

so, the reason the river is unimproved / underdeveloped is b/c of illegal immigrants?

legal or not, everyone pays sales taxes. so, if the intent is to punish children for the circumstance they were born into, this increase in tax will certainly help accomplish that goal.

clearly, some have an agenda and to try and tie (drag?) it into a discussion about an increase in sales taxes is quite a stretch.

Don't expect Wise to bring up the illegals that mow his lawn or work at the barn where he keeps his horse. :o

No, I didn't say they were the reason, I was rsponding to Jake's statement that it is a misconception that they cost us extra tax dollars.

And to you, HairBall, every jaun that works at the barn are legal. So is the guy that mows my lawn.

Speaking of, I was by your house and you're in need of some serious lawn work. I saw at least two neighbors frowning at it.

And to you, HairBall,
Speaking of, I was by your house and you're in need of some serious lawn work. I saw at least two neighbors frowning at it.


.
.
... needs some shingles on the west-roof-addition ...

Your lawn boy is not legal if he is not white. Sorry.

And to you, HairBall, every jaun that works at the barn are legal. So is the guy that mows my lawn.




What?....You work for the Border patrol on the side now? How do you know? Did you check each and every one of them?.....That's funny because your horse speaks Spanish which is probably because it doesn't understand a word you or Julie is trying to say when you're beating it with a stick. :o

Bringing up illegal aliens as a reason to vote no is a crock. We should just legalize pot and then the city can tax that to raise money for the river. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

How soon you forget that Oklahoma already provides that you are required to purchase a tax stamp for any pot that a person might sell. So that is a mute point.

And I wasn't using illegals as a reason to vote no, if you would take a minute read Jake's post.

So if you want to vote yes for the River proposal, go ahead, I'll just cancel it out any way. :o

if this "take from the poor to entertain the rich" river tax passes will it have any effect on the riverside course?



Seems to me the rich will cover more of this than the poor because "THE RICH" buy more things and therefore pay more sales tax.

Even the illegals would have to pay on this one. :o



tru dat...tru dat, the wealthy in this country pay 80% of the tax burden (dem's love to punish the over-achievers). But in this case even the lowest income earners will have to contribute to the development of hotels and restaurants that they can never afford to patronize. In essence, "take from the poor to entertain the rich". Unless these low income households are on some sort of government assitance then "turn about is NOT fair play" :(

Are you talking "poor" as in "starving children in Africa" poor or are you talking "poor" as in "PeeWee from OKC" poor? :confused:

When is the last time you went to a DG tourney and someone threw in $110 million in "added" cash? :)

Will our leaders consider funding all of the swimming pools so more people can swim during the season before we do the river project? My point is that we have other things that we need to attend to before we start this.

Will our leaders consider funding all of the swimming pools so more people can swim during the season before we do the river project? My point is that we have other things that we need to attend to before we start this.


Well Said

Are you talking "poor" as in "starving children in Africa" poor or are you talking "poor" as in "PeeWee from OKC" poor? :confused:

When is the last time you went to a DG tourney and someone threw in $110 million in "added" cash? :)


If memory serves me the official poverty threshold, as determind by the US Census Bureau, is an income of less than $25,000 per year for a family of 4 (2 children under the age of 18). As for that $110 million...suppose you just purchased a beautiful villa in the south of France for $200 million, of which you ponied up $110 million. Now you need to come up with the money to finish paying for your little place so you ask me and thousands of other people to contribute $100 a year toward your purchase. Do you really feel that we should contribute? It's yours not ours...we can't afford to pay for the trip to stay at your house (even if you would let us). Of course the wealther people of Tulsa are going to contribute $110 million for something that will be developed primarily for them.

Maybe I'm just a little confused, but I was under the impression that this tax would be going to develop the Arkansas River and surrounding area including parks, trails, playgrounds, pedestrian bridges, etc.

Are you saying only the rich will benefit from this?

Actually the plans will eliminate the tent city that the poor establish on the river bank during the nicer weather. So in essence we will be disposing the poor from their little encampment and forcing them to move on or hang out at the day center and John 3:16.
Doc is right we have pools in this town that have not been open for more than 2 years do to a lack of funding and street lights that have been turned off because of the electric bills to run them. (crime loves dark places to operate) we have an under manned police force that is forced to spend all day writing traffic tickets to fund themselves instead of investigating and mitigating real crimes. Our streets are full of holes, our water delivery system suffers daily breaks and if you take a quick smell along the river it tells us that sometimes the waste disposal system is not doing such a good job. :o
Speaking of river development, where is the money to relocate the source of the foul smells that come from places along the river? Are they budgeting to remove those smelly places for when they try and pretty things up? Or will we have a beautiful series of parks, green spaces, (that we cannot afford to mow and upkeep), bridges for feet (to replace the unsafe vehicular ones), up scale hotels, and art shops and gourmet restaurants within the stench zone?
I would truly love to see the river made into an attractive place including the removal of all of the nasty goat head stickers and thorns but this tax will not even come close to providing all that is needed it is just the opening salvo in what will grow to a BILLION dollar project. Guess who gets to pay for that one?
REMEMBER THIS IS THE CITY THAT SPENT MILLIONS ON A MAIN STREET MALL, BANNED THE PUSHCARTS AND THEN SPENT ANOTHER MILLION TO TEAR OUT THE STUFF THE SPENT MONEY TO PUT IN 20 OR SO YEARS AGO. :confused: WE ONCE HAD LOW WATER DAMS ON THE RIVER AND WE TORE MOST OF THE OUT NOW WE WANT TO PUT THEM BACK? :confused:

GO AHEAD AND VOTE YES, I AM SURE I AM GOING TO BE OUT VOTED AND HAVE TO PAY MORE TAX TO EAT. :(

good point. families who are on a fixed income wont visit the area much anyway....but as a whole will make up a large part of the taxes.

i am still going to vote yes. :D

sounds like a nice addition to town...even if i just use it once or twice a year for a special occasion or something.

The tent city and all the crime that came along with it has already been removed.

so where you livin now?!

"VOTE YES NOV 2"

"Get the RIVERSIDE DISC GOLF COURSE OUTTTTA HERE"


"WE ALL KNOW IT SUCKSMONKEY NUTS"

"This is your chance to make a change"


"VOTE YES NOV 2"

The plans call for an updated course, so I may vote yes just to see what happens...

If they pull Riverside, TDSA will take a real revenue hit..

LET US MOVE THE COURSE TO TURKEY MOUNTAIN AND SCARE THE TURKEYS BACK TO 41st STREET! :D

"VOTE YES NOV 2"

"Get the RIVERSIDE DISC GOLF COURSE OUTTTTA HERE"
i thought the vote was oct 9th


"WE ALL KNOW IT SUCKSMONKEY NUTS"

"This is your chance to make a change"


"VOTE YES NOV 2"

why are you even concerned anyway Kmac you wont even be here!!! ;)

"VOTE YES NOV 2"

"This is your chance to make a change"


"VOTE YES NOV 2"


.



... 's cool ... the vote is Oct. 9 ...

why are you even concerned anyway Kmac you wont even be here!!! ;)



I will always be concerned that a walker/jogger NEVER gets maimed by an errant shot.

Money would be generated at ANY other course if it was actually scheduled somewhere other than the River

I would propose that the TDSA doesn't host any club functions on a course that dangerous....The club doesn't need that kind of responsibility WHEN someone gets f'd up by a bad shot

what about mcclure I have personally hit 1 person there

You are right about McClure Park, the pedestrian traffic there is second only to Riverside.

Well as far as pedestrians being in the way of the actual golf holes...nothing can be worse that Redhawk on the weekends...

....it is literally unplayable....

.....unless you have strong ties to MS-13 or something...:eek:

Big Copy!

RedHawk on Saturdays and Sundays can be pretty dangerous, but during weekdays you are by yourself out there.

You also have to keep an eye out for f A g S out there by the shelter on 14.

McClure isn't the greatest either and I'm not trying to sell it as. I just know our club has finally has a nice spread in our bank account. I would hate to see it go away, paying off a settlement after someone gets their nose put on upside down.

Good luck trying to find out who to go after or at what address. :o

and since it is a public park, the public is at their own risk, ulitmately the only responsible party is the thrower of the disc.

Kind of like hitting a golf ball down 51st by LaFortune, its not the courses fault, its the guy that it it.

Well, 28 years at Riverside and no disc golf related fatalities, just a missing ear or two :o..

Mack Taylor is the most dangerous course and I have the scars/screws/metal bar to prove it :)

Well i would hate to see you TwoPutt getting sued by one of your ever so common horrible shots :D

I saw him bounce one off somebody's handlebars while they were riding their bike. That was a real intellegent shot from a really Wise guy.

I would too but thats the chance I take when I go to a park like Riverside and I came REAL close a few weeks back.

But unlike you, I have insurance for just such an emergency. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif So, no worries.........fly free disc......fly freeeeeeeeee................................


The bicyclists are the WORST for safety issues. I'd be real curious to see which has resulted in more pedestrian injuries, bike or discs. :o

If its a choice, I'd rather get hit with one of your wimpy shots than say, Sean Young going down the trail at 40mph.

Courts have recently ruled that the striker of a golf ball is not liable for damages that might result from where it goes or whom it hits, although since Drew if the Law School student maybe he can do a Lexus / nexus and pull up the case and venture a thought on whether or not it would apply to our golf.

Side note: K Mack is right about the danger i have been sideswiped twice by those wonderful bike riders :( who do not yield to anything or anybody! :mad:I SAY BAN THE BIKES !! :cool:

The shot was fine, but how do you know if a bike rider is coming at 35mph+.

And I made the birdie. :D

Two putt is right, there is a posted speed limit for bikes but it is never enforced :confused: and it is shattered ever few minutes by some joker on his 18 speed crouch rocket!

Yea!

I forgot today was Bash on Dave Wise Day!

Geez...and I marked my calender and everything!

My question is this....

...remember the guy who hit another golfer off the tee at Duncan?

What were the legal ramifications of that? What settlement did they reach, if any, and did they have to seek legal counsel?

...

I'm just trying to feel out my market.....the disc golf attorney....

...I'll win your case or the next round of golf is on me!!! ;)

But unlike you, I have insurance for just such an emergency. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif So, no worries.........fly free disc......fly freeeeeeeeee................................




I didn't know Allied sold "Stupidity" insurance. How much did your million dollar policy cost?

I would assume that the new "dual trail system" has a lot to do with other pedestrians complaing about the riders.

Kev, Riverside has been the model that we have always used to prove that discers and pedestrians can co-mingle just fine, with out any major inccidents.
That is always the concern for a city that is proposing a new course in their city. We have always told them, "just look at Riverside, 25 years and still going. Have you ever heard of any complaints?"

Thats how we present it, I have even heard you use it. ;)

But unlike you, I have insurance for just such an emergency. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif So, no worries.........fly free disc......fly freeeeeeeeee................................




I didn't know Allied sold "Stupidity" insurance. How much did your million dollar policy cost?




The only stupidity is that most of the golfers out there don't buy it. Its cheap enough, but most of you don't buy any insurance that isn't already furnished by your employer.
:o

Don't believe me?

Do you rent?
Do you have renters insurance?
Remember Naegele's fire.
No insurance........

Do you have children?
Do you insure your life to protect them?
If not, why? You don't love them?

Do you have health insurance or do you milk the system like the illegals?

All ligitimate questions. :o

Don't fluff your own product too much there Dave...

...you might just want to change your signature to "Allied Insurance- Buy From The Best"

I don't push my products to the disc golfers. But those are questions they should be asking themselves.

The day you have to pay your own bills and not sukk off daddy's nipple any more, then you will be allowed to speak on the subject. You have no experience with the subject. :o

True....

.....but no " :o".......

..........I'm Twenty. :p

It shows buddy. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif From future lawyer to legal assistant in one year. Way to go. :)

I'm Twenty. :p




Great!!!, then we could take all of your life experiences and any other knowledge you have gained in your glorius 20 years and maybe, just maybe it might fill up a bb. :o

Don't stop me now, I'm on a roll.......................... :D

Next I'll take up your rant on how there isn't a disc golfer out there worth a rats terd. :o

No I am saying the opposite...

I am twenty means I have not come to a point in my life (and really by saying that I mean the common age for such a transformation to take place) to where I must know/care about those things...

I'll give you credit for being one of the more responsible 20 year olds I have met. and **** sure easier to get along with. ;)

You're almost 47 years old. What's your excuse? :confused:

Aww shucks Wise....

Don't you still owe me money???

Nope, paid you off before the mini.

Try an accounting class next semester. :o:D

Hate to break the thread :Dbut I just wondered, do we get to keep the baskets when they pull the riverside course or are they just going to disappear into some city / county warehouse and never be seen again? :confused:

You're almost 47 years old. What's your excuse? :confused:



I have grown past the point of caring about someone's personal feelings. If they don't pay my bills, screw 'em! :o

It happens at about 2 marriages, 1 divorce, 3 children and 45 years of age. :D

They aren't pulling it....

do we get to keep the baskets when they pull the riverside course or are they just going to disappear into some city / county warehouse and never be seen again? :confused:



What is "Tulsa Government, Alex"

They aren't pulling it....



Yeah right, and we voted in a street bond to fix the pot holes too!

if any thing needs to get pulled, Andrew is your man! :D

Hey Drew; as soon as everyone votes in the new tax lets get the 18 and the tee signs secured and move them to Jenks! I would bet we can get them to give us a place to play, maybe next to the new baseball stadium or across from Bells new place. :D

You're almost 47 years old. What's your excuse? :confused:



I have grown past the point of caring about someone's personal feelings. If they don't pay my bills, screw 'em! :o

It happens at about 2 marriages, 1 divorce, 3 children and 45 years of age. :D



Somewhere there's a community that needs a "pillar" like you buddy. I'm surprised you wouldn't rather eat your children then part with money. :cool:

You're a prime example of people that have made me feel this way.

At least with me its a constant unlike your secret rants.

It is what it is, you don't have to like it but you won't be having to guess at what I meant. :p

Nope, paid you off before the mini.

Try an accounting class next semester. :o:D



I just like hearing that.... "paid you off..."

Music to my ears...

Riverside Disc Golf Proposal w/ RiverTax Funds (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-NwpQBakJEY)

I can't read this due to it's considered inappropriate material where I work. Can somebody cut and paste the article on here so I can start a new rant for the day?? :(

It you tube so you still can't get it.

Riverside Disc Golf Proposal w/ RiverTax Funds (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-NwpQBakJEY)



What we need is some more hoes...in Tulsa Disc golf...maybe I should add that to my platform.....

...for the record we are set on pimps, just need more hoes...

Are you volunteering?

if so, we could put you down on 11th to keep Jake company. :D

I can't read this due to it's considered inappropriate material where I work. Can somebody cut and paste the article on here so I can start a new rant for the day?? :(



It basically says the best thing for 41st and Riverside is to vote yes on the River Tax so that the golf course can be blown up and never seen again.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/-NwpQBakJEY/1.jpg
http://img.youtube.com/vi/-NwpQBakJEY/2.jpg
http://img.youtube.com/vi/-NwpQBakJEY/3.jpg

START FROM SCRATCH AND BUILD A NEW TRACK!!!

Well...as leader of the "Short Arm" association I'm going to jump ship for a minute and agree with you. I have a tendancy to whack cars in the parking lot on # 10. :(.....

Don't tell anybody I said that though. There's a lot of PO'd drivers with Fur-dents in their quarter panels that are looking for me. :confused:

... ? ... even shorter ? ... even easier ? ...

It's not the fact that the holes are too short or they are too easy. The FACT of the matter is that there are WAY too many holes that there are possibilities of smoking a pedestrian.

Sure you can give the McClure argument but there are far less pedestrians at McClure and most walking paths are very visible (other than 3 &6)

CHANDLER is SOOOOOOOOO much better because you rarely have to worry about knocking someone chiclet's out. Plus at Chandler, less people out there have chiclets to knock out....BerryHill rocks :eek:

i kinda feel that disc golf courses ARE in public city parks we just need to share them and be careful.unless you can come up with some money to buy enough land so we can still play for free and have 5 or 6 courses like THE LODGE. I know most people I play with are very careful it don't hurt my game that much to let a ped. get outa my way (not that it could make it any worse)!!! :D:D

I hit Jesse "Coach" Sellers in the shoulder one time a McClure. I was just putting at the time. I don't know what happened. I was aiming for his mouth. ;)

Most of the close calls I've seen down at Riverside have been from better players that were in too much of a hurry and didn't want to wait for the path to clear.

i kinda feel that disc golf courses ARE in public city parks we just need to share them and be careful.unless you can come up with some money to buy enough land so we can still play for free and have 5 or 6 courses like THE LODGE. I know most people I play with are very careful it don't hurt my game that much to let a ped. get outa my way (not that it could make it any worse)!!! :D:D


.
.
... Good Call there , Jerry ... common sense , ay ? ... quarter-mile visibility ...
.
... oh and Thanks for your repair-work at Dovillio ... you da man ... let me know whenever you wanna "re-plant" the tree-barrier or new-pole in # 4 fairway at Hunter ... I'm with ya ...

I think that the biggest issue with golfers/pedestrians is all the noobs that play out there. They don't have the etiquette that some of us do and that is where most of them play.

I see a bunch of drunken idiots out there all the time not giving a care about sharing the park wit other users. That gives all of us a bad name if they are out there throwing into people.

Also, I too have hit a biker in the head with a turnover on 17. Surely we can all agree that RDGC is not safe in its current layout.

I agree!!
We need a no bike zone around the course!!
Pedestrians are easy to spot and miss but those darned idiots on the 18 speed missiles are hard to spot coming and even worse trying to dodge while you are walking on the walking path!

I think that the biggest issue with golfers/pedestrians is all the noobs that play out there. They don't have the etiquette that some of us do and that is where most of them play. ... Bingo ...

I see a bunch of drunken idiots out there all the time not giving a care about sharing the park wit other users. That gives all of us a bad name if they are out there throwing into people. ... true that ... reflection from casual-players to "organized-players" is a common misconception ...

Also, I too have hit a biker in the head with a turnover on 17. Surely we can all agree that RDGC is not safe in its current layout. ... quarter-mile visibility ...


.
.
... p.s. > I still owe you a dollar from the Lodge ... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Where do you keep getting this 1/4 mile visibility? You are clearly making it up. a 1/4 mile is 1320 ft. You have about 500 ft of visibility off #17 and that ain't enough to see the bikers.

from 17 you can see all the way to the bridge by 18s basket that is over 600 feet I would think and from the other way you can see alot further ;) unless your vision is blurred from TD supplies

500/600 it ain't no 1/4 mile. It's not evern 1/8th of a mile.

Where do you keep getting this 1/4 mile visibility? You are clearly making it up. a 1/4 mile is 1320 ft. You have about 500 ft of visibility off #17 and that ain't enough to see the bikers.



WORD!

Hole 10 has about a 7/387 kilometers of visibility.
Hole 6 has about 1/4 yard of visibility off the tee from behind

I'm not opposed of having a disc golf course at the River, not even opposed of it still being a pitch~n~putt....There is about 1/2 a good hole out there and I'm racking the brain trying to figure out what half that is?

It's just that the current course and it's current layout has been so jacked up with pointless and not well thought out changes that it's best just to drop the bomb on it and start all over.

VOTE YES!!!!!!

Jesus people enough with the fractions!

Do you want my head to explode!!!

MC

You should use this pic for your new avatar.

http://a104.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/1/s_ac5b6fb2e6d5a554f2c9b949e74dbcbf.jpg

I say vote yes so we can stick it to those people in Owasso that have been sucking off Tulsa's nipple for years. :o:D

Do you want my head to explode!!!



Actually you could use a little dirt to fill in that crator. ;)

yeah i almost smacked a guy in the head teeing off on #2 after a shank to the right.
luckily he saw it coming, heard me screaming and was able to duck down, also fortunate he was a nice guy...laughing about it, it still makes me nervous. I really don't want to hurt anyone.

i've always tried to wait on pedestrians / bikers. it seems when you try to rush your drive to beat a walker / biker, it usually just ends up bad.

maybe just having 9 quality / safe holes out there would be a better alternative than trying to squeeze 18 in that limited & very busy area.

Riverside Disc Golf Proposal w/ RiverTax Funds (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-NwpQBakJEY)



What we need is some more hoes...in Tulsa Disc golf...maybe I should add that to my platform.....

...for the record we are set on pimps, just need more hoes...



http://www.photocasket.com/funny/copyof741638007lng6.gif (http://www.photocasket.com)

I thought you might like to hear a progress report on the river development vote (the nice thing about this discussion board is that if you really don't want to hear, you can move on):

I think a lot of the confusion is being cleared up-
* This is not The Channels; it is the older, basic plan that has been studied for many years with hundreds of public meetings.
* There was never the intention that the small amount of money in Vision 2025 for dams ($5.6 million) would pay for them, only that it would pay for studies and perhaps help seed a federal grant that never came because of the greater need for Katrina recovery efforts; the remaining Vision 2025 money (and more than $12 million from other voter-approved sources) is being applied to this plan.
* There will be strong oversight of how the money is spent by both a citizen committee and the foundations, individuals and businesses who are putting up $117 million to improve the plan.
* There is a tax rebate for those over 65 and those with family income below about $50,000.
* This will be largely a pay as you go arrangement, saving lots of interest, because several of the projects will take a couple of years to gain approval and the tax can accumulate and earn interest.
* The main thing the public project does is put water in the river at all times, with eleven miles of lakes and improved access, including street and sidewalk improvements leading to the river and pedestrian bridges across it. The private supplement builds parks, playgrounds, wilderness and fitness areas along the banks.
* And the real thing the river plan does is demonstrate to prospective employers and to our kids who are leaving town to find good jobs that Tulsans are serious about improving their city and making it more livable.

Almost no one seems opposed to the plan itself but the vote will be close because many people will vote no for reasons unrelated to the proposal, such as...
* opposition to all taxes, even one of less than half a penny (or about ten cents per day for most people) for just seven years;
* belief that other needs are more urgent, like road repair; There is clearly a high priority need for this purpose but it will be separately funded under a plan that is just now being developed. We need to do both.
* concern in one city that every dollar they pay doesn't come back to them in projects within their city limits and that those dollars could otherwise be taxed locally. But more than 50% of their residents work in the city of Tulsa and use its facilities which were largely paid for without cost to them;
* concern in one area of the city about a wholly unrelated issue that they want to protest about by rejecting this plan, which they acknowledge is sound.

If you have questions that I have not clarified here (or if you don't like my answers), please take a look at the FAQ section of the website, OurRiverYes.com at http://www.ourriveryes.com/overview/q&a/ and any other material online that takes an opposing view.

I hope, after you have done all of your own research, looking at the advice of the pro and con people, that you will conclude, as I have, that this is critically important for Tulsa and will vote YES. This may be our last shot for a long, long time to pull ourselves out of the economic drift we are in. And maybe, also, you could help explain the plan, as you see it, to your friends and neighbors.

Thanks for reading. And yes its a long day at work when can pull shiet like this :o:) :eek: :cool:/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

Will our leaders consider funding all of the swimming pools so more people can swim during the season before we do the river project? My point is that we have other things that we need to attend to before we start this.



According to today's paper, 5 million out of the private 117 million donated will be going to swimming pools in low income areas. 5 million may not be much but considering that they're not getting anything right now, it's better than nothing.

I agree with your point that other things need to be done but I don't expect any of those other things to be dealt with if this fails. I'm sure the rich aren't worried about swimming pools but if they are we can always blow a hole in the Keystone dam and flood Jenks, Bixby, and Broken Arrow. Owasso will just have to go without swimming pools since they don't have a river. :D

We had a pool in Owasso for many years, it was rundown,so we tore it down and we built a YMCA. Sorry furdog, Owasso is as great as you talk it up to be /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I know. Seems like every house up there backs up to a ball golf course. :D....Except Wise's house. All he has behind his house is a bunch of barking dogs. :D

I think Bougher runs a donkey farm somewhere up there too. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

nice post swag. Pretty much sums it up. You didn't address the safety of Riverside disc golf though. :D

I know. Seems like every house up there backs up to a ball golf course. :D....Except Wise's house. All he has behind his house is a bunch of barking dogs. :D



With every call to the police it seems they bark less and less. :D

Good thing you're a dog person and can speak "dog". Otherwise you'd never know they were calling you a donkey. :D

Ok I'm not talking about everyone but let's do some hardcore math and see where some DG'ers are currently spending their money.

Generic cigarettes at say $2 a pack. One pack a day times 365 days = $730 bucks a year.

1/8 ounce of pot every two weeks at $40 = $1,040 a year.

1 six pack of cheap beer a day times 365 days =$1,460 a year.

Except for the beer estimate which was provided by Bud Johnson these are all low ball estimates and doesn't really take into account holidays and two day events. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I say we chuck the river tax and write up a proposed park improvement tax the will take care of the things we need:
1. Restrooms!!! :o:cool:
2. Grass cutting :eek:
3. Trash cans /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
4. Playgrounds for the little ones :)
5. More Parking for the players. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
6. More area for our courses. ;)
7. entry passes for Mohawk :p
8. insect control spraying!! :D
9. Poison Ivy control!!!! :D
10. More courses WITHOUT Bicycle paths! :D
11. At lest ONE practice basket in EVERY park (even the pocket parks) ;)
12. Recognition of Disc Golf as a SPORT
13. At lest one ultimate field that is NOT in the middle of the disc golf course! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :p
14. More pavilions :D
15. More Picnic tables (not in the middle of the course though) :D
16. More charcoal grills. :)
17. and did i mention MORE RESTROOMS :D
18. and even MORE TRASH CANS :D

Just a thought for your tax dollars at work for US! :D

Ok I'm not talking about everyone but let's do some hardcore math and see where some DG'ers are currently spending their money.

Generic cigarettes at say $2 a pack. One pack a day times 365 days = $730 bucks a year.

1/8 ounce of pot every two weeks at $40 = $1,040 a year.

1 six pack of cheap beer a day times 365 days =$1,460 a year.

Except for the beer estimate which was provided by Bud Johnson these are all low ball estimates and doesn't really take into account holidays and two day events. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<font color="red"> Hey i just couldn't figure out what Zooc was talking about :confused: i would have thought that passage would have been more job security not less for anyone in the parks department. :confused: :confused: as to the math my smokes are $16.00 :cool:carton of 10 packs so $1.60 a day times 365 days equals $584.00 :( and that may be a reason to quit. I do not smoke the other stuff /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gifeven gave up the pipe tobacco and cigars. :(quit the beer when they labeled me diabetic. :( :( and cut back on food to 1.5 meals a day average. :( :( :( if i quit the diet pop and .67 a 2 liter bottle i will be down to about as cheap as i can get.
oh well at lest disc golf is still free to play casual rounds in the Tulsa city and county parks for now. :D</font>

I say we chuck the river tax and write up a proposed park improvement tax the will take care of the things we need:
1. Restrooms!!! :o:cool:
<font color="red">Didn't your parents teach you to make sure you go before you get in the car?...It shouldn't matter anyway because there's always a tree or bush in the park that needs fertilizing. </font> :)

2. Grass cutting :eek:
<font color="red">Zooc's job. And for only about 6 months out of the year. What does he do the other six months? </font> :confused:

3. Trash cans /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
<font color="red">That's what responsible DG'ers are for. Or, send more convicted DUI felons out there for comunity service.</font>

4. Playgrounds for the little ones :)
<font color="red">Read the instructions. Some are included in the plan. </font>

5. More Parking for the players. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<font color="red">More parking is in the plan but ride a bike or get a Mophead to save gas. Just don't tell Mitchell what kind you are getting. </font> :o

6. More area for our courses. ;)
<font color="red">Build new bridges to the west side and more area's will be available. </font> :)

7. entry passes for Mohawk :p
<font color="red">What???....And screw Zooc out of his retirement fund? </font> :( :o

8. insect control spraying!! :D
<font color="red">Learn to eat bugs. They are high protein and less calories than McDonalds. </font>

9. Poison Ivy control!!!! :D
<font color="red">Spray agent orange. It worked in Vietnam. </font>

10. More courses WITHOUT Bicycle paths! :D
<font color="red">How else will EMSA be able to drag the drunk DG'ers out of the woods? </font> :confused:

11. At lest ONE practice basket in EVERY park (even the pocket parks) ;)
<font color="red">I think the club already has some of the old ones that got pulled before Am worlds. I thought those were going to be refurbished? </font> :confused:

12. Recognition of Disc Golf as a SPORT
<font color="red">Sorry buddy. I think the Rock, Paper, Scissors tournament gets more national attention then we do. </font> :(

13. At lest one ultimate field that is NOT in the middle of the disc golf course! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :p
<font color="red">"Ultimately" those players will turn old and turn to the dark side of DG. </font>

14. More pavilions :D
<font color="red">Included in the plan. </font>

15. More Picnic tables (not in the middle of the course though) :D
16. More charcoal grills. :)
<font color="red">Items 15 &amp; 16 refer to food so it may be time for your afternoon snack. </font> :D

17. and did i mention MORE RESTROOMS :D
<font color="red">Yes. Maybe you better hit the can before you eat your snack. </font> ;)

18. and even MORE TRASH CANS :D
<font color="red">Waste not, want not. I propose edible snack food wrappers. </font>

Just a thought for your tax dollars at work for US! :D



<font color="red">I'm starting to feel like Donald Sutherland's character "Oddball" in "Kelly's Hero's" when he turned to Moriarty his tank driver and said...."Always with the negative waves dude!!!!". </font> :( ;)

I say we chuck the river tax and write up a proposed park improvement tax the will take care of the things we need:
1. Restrooms!!! :o:cool:
<font color="red">Didn't your parents teach you to make sure you go before you get in the car?...It shouldn't matter anyway because there's always a tree or bush in the park that needs fertilizing. </font> :) <font color="blue">So no women players and bring your own toilet paper :( </font>

2. Grass cutting :eek:
<font color="red">Zook's job. And for only about 6 months out of the year. What does he do the other six months? </font> :confused: <font color="blue">Just a plug for the roller throwers :DI throw so short that i can almost always spot mine even in elephant high grass :D </font>

3. Trash cans /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
<font color="red">That's what responsible Diggers are for. Or, send more convicted DUI felons out there for community service.</font> <font color="blue">Yeah right and a tax to pay for more guards too :( </font>

4. Playgrounds for the little ones :)
<font color="red">Read the instructions. Some are included in the plan. </font> <font color="blue">not in our parks only river and north, nothing for Mac Taylor and our other parks :( </font>

5. More Parking for the players. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<font color="red">More parking is in the plan but ride a bike or get a Mophead to save gas. Just don't tell Mitchell what kind you are getting. </font> :o<font color="blue">and a police escort to get there safely from Jenks to Mac Taylor down north Peoria? :( </font>

6. More area for our courses. ;)
<font color="red">Build new bridges to the west side and more area's will be available. </font> :) <font color="blue">You saw this in the plan :eek: funny i missed any mention of anything relating to us except messing up the existing track at riverside :confused: </font>

7. entry passes for Mohawk :p
<font color="red">What???....And screw Zooc out of his retirement fund? </font> :( :o<font color="blue">so we sweat and bleed to put it in and we have to pay to play, sounds like government to me :( </font>

8. insect control spraying!! :D
<font color="red">Learn to eat bugs. They are high protein and less calories than McDonalds. </font> <font color="blue">Happy West Nile and Merry Lyme's disease to you too, just ask Joyle how that feels. :( </font>

9. Poison Ivy control!!!! :D
<font color="red">Spray agent orange. It worked in Vietnam. </font> <font color="blue">I love the smell of napalm in the morning it really does smell like victory and roasted chicken. :D </font>

10. More courses WITHOUT Bicycle paths! :D
<font color="red">How else will EMSA be able to drag the drunk DG'ers out of the woods? </font> :confused: <font color="blue"> life flight baby it avoids the traffic jams :D</font>

11. At lest ONE practice basket in EVERY park (even the pocket parks) ;)
<font color="red">I think the club already has some of the old ones that got pulled before Am worlds. I thought those were going to be refurbished? </font> :confused: <font color="blue">That would take permission from the parks people :( </font>

12. Recognition of Disc Golf as a SPORT
<font color="red">Sorry buddy. I think the Rock, Paper, Scissors tournament gets more national attention then we do. </font> :( <font color="blue">Yeah i know, less than .01% of Tulsans know we had 2006 Am(advanced) Worlds here and those that do worked it or played in it or both :confused: </font>

13. At lest one ultimate field that is NOT in the middle of the disc golf course! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :p
<font color="red">"Ultimately" those players will turn old and turn to the dark side of DG. </font> <font color="blue"> Good maybe they can cross the new foot bridge and play ultimate on the new Rugby field, wait a minute that is not going to be replaced to a new location /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font>

14. More pavilions :D
<font color="red">Included in the plan. </font> <font color="blue">only on the river we play in a lot of other places and there are none for Chandler Park in this plan nor for Dovilio. :( </font>

15. More Picnic tables (not in the middle of the course though) :D
16. More charcoal grills. :)
<font color="red">Items 15 &amp; 16 refer to food so it may be time for your afternoon snack. </font> :D
<font color="blue">Fine sit on the ground with the bugs we do not spray for and cook on your portable grill that you have to haul out and back :( </font>

17. and did i mention MORE RESTROOMS :D
<font color="red">Yes. Maybe you better hit the can before you eat your snack. </font> ;)

18. and even MORE TRASH CANS :D
<font color="red">Waste not, want not. I propose edible snack food wrappers. </font>

Just a thought for your tax dollars at work for US! :D



<font color="red">I'm starting to feel like Donald Sutherland's character "Oddball" in "Kelly's Hero's" when he turned to Moriarty his tank driver and said...."Always with the negative waves dude!!!!". </font> :( ;)

<font color="blue">Dude i just want my gold bricks from all of this, i want to ride in the Tiger Tank for a change instead of being under it's treads /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font>

[QUOTE]
Ok I'm not talking about everyone but let's do some hardcore math and see where some DG'ers are currently spending their money.

Generic cigarettes at say $2 a pack. One pack a day times 365 days = $730 bucks a year.

1/8 ounce of pot every two weeks at $40 = $1,040 a year.

1 six pack of cheap beer a day times 365 days =$1,460 a year.

Except for the beer estimate which was provided by Bud Johnson these are all low ball estimates and doesn't really take into account holidays and two day events. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<font color="red"> Hey i just couldn't figure out what Zooc was talking about :confused: i would have thought that passage would have been more job security not less for anyone in the parks department. :confused: :confused: as to the math my smokes are $16.00 :cool:carton of 10 packs so $1.60 a day times 365 days equals $584.00 :( and that may be a reason to quit. I do not smoke the other stuff /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gifeven gave up the pipe tobacco and cigars. :(quit the beer when they labeled me diabetic. :( :( and cut back on food to 1.5 meals a day average. :( :( :( if i quit the diet pop and .67 a 2 liter bottle i will be down to about as cheap as i can get.
oh well at lest disc golf is still free to play casual rounds in the Tulsa city and county parks for now. :D</font> [/quoteOk, all you aholes, I was half kidding. but, since you mentioned new jobs, ... those would mostly consist of temp consrtuction, and then the kids to work at the "new storefronts" that make 8 bucks an hour. They have not inlcuded any maint. on this. Just as always they add new stuff but dont add new money for maint. I know, I live it. I have to stop there , for fear of the Yes police. Gag .. order. :o:mad::mad::mad:<font color="orange"> </font> ]

Zooc, what about increased sales tax revenue that would be generated by the added businesses? Won't that add money for maintenance? Particularly if the desired effect of attracting business and residents is realized?

I thought you might like to hear a progress report on the river development vote (the nice thing about this discussion board is that if you really don't want to hear, you can move on):

I think a lot of the confusion is being cleared up-
* This is not The Channels; it is the older, basic plan that has been studied for many years with hundreds of public meetings. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[maybee dozens not hundreds. :confused: </font> * There was never the intention that the small amount of money in Vision 2025 for dams ($5.6 million) would pay for them, only that it would pay for studies and perhaps help seed a federal grant that never came because of the greater need for Katrina recovery efforts; /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gifInhoffe is working on that. :mad:the remaining Vision 2025 money (and more than $12 million from other voter-approved sources) is being applied to this plan. :(Do you trust them after we said build the river and we got "superarena" :eek:
* There will be strong oversight of how the money is spent by both a citizen committee and the foundations, individuals and businesses who are putting up $117 million to improve the plan. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gifYeah, I ve got a bridge to sell you buddy :mad:
* There is a tax rebate for those over 65 and those with family income below about $50,000. :cool:How many 65 and older will go to skate on the new riverwalk. :confused:
* This will be largely a pay as you go arrangement, saving lots of interest, because several of the projects will take a couple of years to gain approval and the tax can accumulate and earn interest.hat if the study says we cant build.who hands out the collected moneyif it doesnt pass the corps study of wildlife
* The main thing the public project does is put water in the river at all times, with eleven miles of lakes and improved access, including street and sidewalk improvements leading to the river and pedestrian bridges across it. The private supplement builds parks, playgrounds, wilderness and fitness areas along the banks. :cool:We cant maintain what we have.and what about the wildlife? the paper said it would boe ok to loose some wildlife, cuz new kinds would come in&gt; heck we have furdog. :cool:
* And the real thing the river plan does is demonstrate to prospective employers and to our kids who are leaving town to find good jobs that Tulsans are serious about improving their city and making it more livable. :cool:Have you seen the commercials? they lie.Thre kids say if youre against, you are against the kids basically. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Almost no one seems opposed to the plan itself but the vote will be close because many people will vote no for reasons unrelated to the proposal, such as...
* opposition to all taxes, even one of less than half a penny (or about ten cents per day for most people) for just seven years; :mad:just for seven years, how long you lived here jackazz :(
* belief that other needs are more urgent, like road repair; There is clearly a high priority need for this purpose but it will be separately funded under a plan that is just now being developed. We need to do both. Yeah there is a panel of 17 or 18 bpeople to figure out the road. that is what the street commish is for.fix the roads now ,come back 5 years to do the river. thats Bsheet about now or never. it fooled you ;)
* concern in one city that every dollar they pay doesn't come back to them in projects within their city limits and that those dollars could otherwise be taxed locally. But more than 50% of their residents work in the city of Tulsa and use its facilities which were largely paid for without cost to them;
* concern in one area of the city about a wholly unrelated issue that they want to protest about by rejecting this plan, which they acknowledge is sound.

If you have questions that I have not clarified here (or if you don't like my answers), please take a look at the FAQ section of the website, OurRiverYes.com at where is the no web site, they think youre evil if you oppose it, and they are the ones lying about river developement in BA with mailing to citizens with a picture of how the river would look in BA with the tax.. this is not in the plans.http://www.ourriveryes.com/overview/q&amp;a/ (http://www.ourriveryes.com/overview/q&amp;a/) and any other material online that takes an opposing view.

I hope, after you have done all of your own research, looking at the advice of the pro and con people, that you will conclude, as I have, that this is critically important for Tulsa and will vote YES. ;)you are probably for Hillary as well. and open borders. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :eek: This may be our last shot for a long, long time to pull ourselves out of the economic drift we are in. And maybe, also, you could help explain the plan, as you see it, to your friends and neighbors.

Thanks for reading. And yes its a long day at work when can pull shiet like this :o:) :eek: :cool:/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

<font color="red"> </font> <font color="brown"> </font> /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gifall my posts are followed by little faces.. :D

dont know? have to ask them

nice post swag. Pretty much sums it up. You didn't address the safety of Riverside disc golf though. :D

<font color="red"> </font> just remember that as a club member you can speak opinion, but the club can not take a stance(if shcwag isa admin) either way, cuz it is against 501 status to take a side if you are non profit. :eek:

I think they would take that extra money from the storefront taxes and appropriate it for some other useless project/effort . That will benefit them but not the actual citizens. don't know maybe bury another car.....

</font> just remember that as a club member you can speak opinion, but the club can not take a stance(if shcwag isa admin) either way, cuz it is against 501 status to take a side if you are non profit. :eek:



So you're saying if the club donates club money to a private "for profit" organization, it's against 501 status? :confused:

The club has taken no position and donated zero funds to either side.

All opinions here are of a personal nature...

Sorry Michael. I didn't mean to imply the club has done anything like that concerning the Rivertax. Seeing how the club has made so much money from minis down there to benifit the TDSA's support of DG in other areas I understand why we have to stay neutral on the deal. Besides, the general public probably doesn't care what side we would be on anyway. :(

I wonder what stance those Rugby guys are taking. :confused:

Sorry Michael. I didn't mean to imply the club has done anything like that concerning the Rivertax. Seeing how the club has made so much money from minis down there to benifit the TDSA's support of DG in other areas I understand why we have to stay neutral on the deal. Besides, the general public probably doesn't care what side we would be on anyway. :(

I wonder what stance those Rugby guys are taking. :confused:


... semi-squat in a scrum ...

SORRY GUYS :(, BUT:
ZOOC is right, we had to pass a tax to fix the existing pedestrian bridge in the 2025 money and that tax did not include maintenance money for most of it's projects. They claimed that the new arena would pay it's own up keep ;) but experts have already shot holes in that /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif so eventually we will be forced to increase taxes to keep it maintained. The city of Tulsa continues to re-up the "temporary" sales tax for streets and water every time it comes up and it seems that temporary is not quite the word i would use for it. :confused:
The city of Tulsa has already publicly stated that it does not have enough money to pay for the electricity to keep all of the street lights lit along the streets and highways, :( and now we wish to construct even more things that require maintenance without funding. :confused:

The ad slogan of "do this for our kid and our grand kids" should be:

"DO THIS TO OUR KIDS AND OUR GRAND KIDS" :D

Because they are the ones who will be stuck paying to maintain or (as we did down town with the main mall) rip out all of these wonderful golly gee whiz make the world flock to Tulsa improvements.
Sorry I do not move to a town based on it's public facilities, otherwise I would not have lived in Wagoner Oklahoma for 22 years.

Don't you live in Jenks now?....Are the street lights working there? :confused:....How much tax support does the Riverwalk bring in for you guys?...What about the overpriced aquarium? :confused:

Don't you live in Jenks now?....Are the street lights working there? :confused:....How much tax support does the Riverwalk bring in for you guys?...What about the overpriced aquarium? :confused:


Good points :Dthe river walk was ALL private enterprise as well as the effort to bring the baseball team to Jenks with the City only getting rid of land that they owned and had to maintain.
Kind of a true win win situation don't you think: the city gets rid of land that they own and maintain to free enterprise who must maintain it and pay tax on it. Gee what a concept! :D
Oh and the City does not have anything to do with the fish tanks either, it runs or outrageous admission fees and maybe a few non government grants. Jenks is too busy taxing to poo out of us for the football program and things like that. :(
OH and you are right about the street lights being a problem the one on the corner next to my house has been out since July but the ones on down the block all work so i guess it is more a mater of maintenance than paying the electric bill. :D

I've paid sales tax in Jenks and Sap-ul-pa before. The way I figure you and Zooc owe me. :mad:

If you vote yes I'll subsidize your 1/2 penny sales tax Martin since you're too young for the senior rebate. :D

The County Commissioner says there is money to spend on streets, but what does the county know about the city budget. Also I think this commissioner is just trying to cover her tail for re-election...

News article (http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=137231)

Post deleted by side arm

From the town of Normal' website.

In 2003 as part of the Uptown Renewal Effort, the Normal Town Council created a Tax Increment Financing (TIF) district. TIF is a tool state lawmakers gave local governments more than 20 years ago to help restore their most run-down areas or jumpstart economically sluggish parts of town. TIFs help local governments attract private development and new businesses. New businesses mean more jobs, more customers, and, in turn, more private investment. TIF designation also helps retain existing businesses that might otherwise find more attractive options elsewhere.

The Town of Normal has used TIF to encourage high quality development to exist and to attract and retain businesses. TIF has also played an integral part in financing infrastructure improvements such as road and utility improvements. In future years, the Town of Normal will continue to use funds generated by the TIF district to help businesses succeed and, as a result, make Uptown Normal an exciting place for residents and visitors to enjoy.

If your momma had said NO to your daddy.... Where would you be right now?

VOTE YES!!!!! :D

Post deleted by side arm

Did you just call Marie and I donkeys? :(

I told you I'd cover your tax for you. Is it just this specific issue or do you just say NO to everything? You're starting to make me feel like I should blow off the new course at Chandler because God forbid someone else might have to maintain it someday. :(

It wouldn't be the first time Chandler got screwed over. :confused:

By the way, my dad left me at a daycare with 20 other kids one day. He went out and got drunk and forgot all about me. I remember this because we had grits or some other crap for lunch but later after all the other kids were gone, I got fried chicken for dinner. I think the lady was bribing me for my home phone number but I held out until I got something good to eat. :D

Are you smoking crack?

Post deleted by side arm

No just saying that the citizens are being treated as pack animals to bear the burden for things we could do without.




The question is not is this something that we CAN do without, but rather is this something that we SHOULD do without. This tax is projected at $45 annually for most families, with the richest citzens paying the most towards this project.

Just because you didn't move here from your small town based on Tulsa's ammenities, that doesn't mean other people won't.

I wish there was not so much close minded pessimism on this issue.

I usually vote yes for new taxes/projects.

The same people always vote no and defend that by saying they want the streets etc. fixed first. That is never goiing to happen. Our streets are always going to need repair due to our geograhic location.

The vote no crowd will make sure we are forever stuck with less infrastructure and opportunities than more enlightened communities.

There is a big picture here. Big companies who pay more than the minimum wage look at how progressive a city is and how their citizens view progress. We will never be in the hunt for real progress unless we vote for progress.

Voting no is such an obvious self fullfilling prophecy. No progress, no new jobs, no new opportunites for a better standard of living, just no no no.

Vote yes for this tax in order to show others we are willing to take chances for progress..

I just have a problem with the county commissioners that are in position now. I have a feeling the monies would not be used for what they are saying.

Just a feeling, but on the flip side I guess we would never know if we didn't pass it.

Good post treat!

I just have a problem with the county commissioners that are in position now. I have a feeling the monies would not be used for what they are saying.

Just a feeling, but on the flip side I guess we would never know if we didn't pass it.

we will never know how they screwed us again unless we vote yes. in BA, as said before, they mailed out expensive(they are determined) mailers with artist rendition of what the river in BA will look like... that crap is not even on the table for ba... how do you explain that crap???? just like hilliary care, itr sounds good to the guy with out healthcare, but when youre done, it is the most expensive lie out there. :)

and its only what it COULD look like even our river is not yet determened they don't have any idea what it will look like

I usually vote yes for new taxes/projects. :) even bush tax cuts have shown to boost the economy. no econimist has said it helps the economy to raise taxes. :)

The same people always vote no and defend that by saying they want the streets etc. fixed first. That is never goiing to happen. Our streets are always going to need repair due to our geograhic location. :)the past street comm. have done ok. but recently city has just patched, who is accountable for all the mony that should have been spent on raods :confused:

The vote no crowd will make sure we are forever stuck with less infrastructure and opportunities than more enlightened communities. we want it, just not with a tax, look at jenks :eek:

There is a big picture here. Big companies who pay more than the minimum wage look at how progressive a city is and how their citizens view progress. We will never be in the hunt for real progress unless we vote for progress. lafortune didnt help much there, and the great plains was a joke, how about govt, subsidizing companies, I need some to :)

Voting no is such an obvious self fullfilling prophecy. No progress, no new jobs, no new opportunites for a better standard of living, just no no no. :eek:youre right NONONO :D

Vote yes for this tax in order to show others we are willing to take chances for progress..

:Dvote no to show we arent the county and citys puppets /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif peace brother :D

youre right, it is trickery

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/Ritze.htm

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/Top10.htm

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/TaxBurden.htm

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/Smell.htm

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/Hewgley.htm

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/Seniors.htm

Interesting website. Look at the top ten reasons...Some of those are actually reasons why I am voting YES! :o

1. The roads have nothing to do with the river tax. The roads should be fixed with the monies that are already allocated for them...without raising taxes. ;)

2. Crime Rate...why would this carry any weight on a river tax vote. Can't we make improvements in this area without shooting down the rivertax? :(

4. River odor...with the addition of low water dams and the cleanup scheduled to take place the odor will be gone...not to mention that there will be a flow of fresh water through the riverbasin instead of the stagnant smelly water there now.

Vote yes and get rid of the odor, vote no and keep the odor. Why would that be on a list of reasons to vote NO? :confused:

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/Hewgley.htm



FIX OUR STREETS by voting NO on the river tax.



Jim Hewgley III, Tulsa


Does this make sense to anyone? How will voting NO fix the streets?

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/TaxBurden.htm



Talk about trickery...this vote is about sales tax, NOT property tax! That is why the map is so unprofessional looking...trickery. :p

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/Ritze.htm



The more I read this website I see how unprofessional it really is..lacking of any real facts.

Click on the link above, you will read someone's personal opinion on a conspiracy theory...they do not tell you what the red print actually means.


Before visiting the norivertaxtulsa website I thought that they actually had some valid, factual based reasons to vote no...all they really have are lies and personal opinions.

Now I am convinced more than ever that voting YES! is the right decision. :cool:Thanks for posting mudbrain. :p

4. River odor...with the addition of low water dams and the cleanup scheduled to take place the odor will be gone...not to mention that there will be a flow of fresh water through the riverbasin instead of the stagnant smelly water there now.


It's not the water in the river that stinks...it's the sewage plant. The smell has nothing to do with the river or its development. The only way to get rid of the smell is to relocate the sewage plant. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/Hewgley.htm



FIX OUR STREETS by voting NO on the river tax.



Jim Hewgley III, Tulsa


Does this make sense to anyone? How will voting NO fix the streets?


How?...By setting priorities...let's take care of what we already have and need to fix before taking on yet another project. How dare the mayor ask us to volunteer an hour to help cut grass so the city will temporarily look good for the pga out-of-towners...we pay more then enough taxes for the city to do their own job. :mad:

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/TaxBurden.htm



Talk about trickery...this vote is about sales tax, NOT property tax! That is why the map is so unprofessional looking...trickery. :p


A dollar here-A dollar there...it all adds up. I see no trickery here...they're just showing how over taxed we are.

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/Ritze.htm



The more I read this website I see how unprofessional it really is..lacking of any real facts.

Click on the link above, you will read someone's personal opinion on a conspiracy theory...they do not tell you what the red print actually means.


Before visiting the norivertaxtulsa website I thought that they actually had some valid, factual based reasons to vote no...all they really have are lies and personal opinions.

Now I am convinced more than ever that voting YES! is the right decision. :cool:Thanks for posting mudbrain. :p


Maybe the site would be more to your liking if they could use tax payer's money for funding like the pro-river tax group. This election alone will cost us more than $100,000. Lies...facts...opinions...what do they matter anyway. Look how Hillary covered up for Bill by slandering all those women he had sexual relations with, one of which he even raped, and she's still the democrat front runner. I guess if people can turn a blind eye and vote for her then they can vote yes for the river tax too. :p

If we pass the river tax how long would it be before they actually started working on those low water dams and other things they propose? How long to do the research and get the proper permits to actually see something done on the river? 2 years? 3 years?

I know the private sector said they would pretty much start the day after, but how are they gonna do that unless they have the proper approval and permits already am I wrong to think this.

I guess if people can turn a blind eye and vote for her then they can vote yes for the river tax too. :p



Thanks Mud. I was on the fence on who to vote for but thanks to you I'll probably vote for Hillery now. It's hard to find a woman that will stand by her man nowdays. :)

I remember back in the eighties when they told us that we could not put any more low water dams on the river, because the Least Tern nested on the sandbars. As far as I know the Least Tern is still on the endangered species list. So I don't believe the feds would allow us to put in anymore low water dams anyway. Here is some info on the Least Tern

nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/.../preserves/protectedbirds.html

Lies...facts...opinions...what do they matter anyway



A true attitude of a NO voter. :eek:

http://www.notulsarivertax.com/index_files/TaxBurden.htm



you'll notice the one county in blue, Tulsa County.
look at the ranges of the other Counties.
$1,552 - $1,960 = red
$1,961 - $1,968 = blue
are you serious? a new category for 7 dollars?
perfect example of using a map to try and mislead people.
whoever made that map was either purposely trying to 'massage' the data to fit their needs or have no idea what they are doing.
/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

OK; since you are set on this fine but other than the possible relocation of some holes, or the entire course, at 41st and River Side Drive,
WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WIHT DISC GOLF? :confused:

CAN WE RESTORE THIS BOARD TO EVENT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND SMACK TALK PLEASE? :(


IT IS APEARENT THAT NEITHER SIDE IS GOING TO LISTEN TO THE OTHER NO MATER WHAT ARGUMENTS ARE USED. :p

... all dis udder stuff goin' on ...
.
.
.
... I saw my chance to Vote today ... The Spot Music Awards ...
.
... ( I'm voting for FurDog ) ... ( him and Wayman Tisdale ) ... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I guess if people can turn a blind eye and vote for her then they can vote yes for the river tax too. :p



Thanks Mud. I was on the fence on who to vote for but thanks to you I'll probably vote for Hillery now. It's hard to find a woman that will stand by her man nowdays. :)


From what I've heard she stands behind him...with a strap-on :o