Dear PDGA Members,

The PDGA Board of Directors has selected Rich Givens and 4141 Disc Golf as the official magazine provider for the organization beginning in January 2008. The selection is the end result of a Request for Proposals (RFP) for magazine services that the association released earlier this year.

The new magazine will be 100% full color gloss, approximately 8 3/8� x 10 7/8�, and wrapped in a heavier, glossy cover stock with perfect binding. The provider will be using recycled (90%-99% post consumer waste) paper stock inside and out. There will be no fewer than 80 interior pages, including 14 full color pages dedicated to PDGA news. The publication will be produced bi-monthly (6 issues per year), providing extensive coverage and time sensitivity to calendars, announcements and communication to our members.

The tone of the magazine is planned to be contemporary and insightful with content and organization consistent with other successful sport and alternative sport publications. The magazine will include regular features and columns, reader feedback forums, humor, advertising and editorial. Contributors and staff writers will include prominent figures in the disc golf community, as well as non-disc literary professionals.

The anticipated newsstand price of the magazine will be $4.95 per issue or $29.70 per year but the PDGA has contracted to pay a special discounted rate of approximately $15 per year to include the magazine as a benefit of membership. Members wishing to opt out of receiving the magazine will be offered a $10 discount off of the standard membership fees in 2008.

The PDGA Board and staff look forward to the release of the first issue with great anticipation and we encourage all members to support this endeavor by choosing to receive the magazine.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director



So if a member decides to opt out of the magazine where does the difference between the $15 the PDGA is saving & the mere $10 that the member is saving go? Is there a special fund for as-yet-unannounced benefits for magazine-opter-outers, or is this a hidden subsidy for magazine itself, or the PDGA's coffers?

I was wondering the same thing.

I'd be interested to hear about the Hall of Famer, Rick Rothstein, and his feelings about the change. Is he in favor of being moved out and relinquishing the job?
Also, I'd like to know about an opt out on ratings and saving me some of the cost of those worthless numbers.

click, click, back, back :eek:

It's good to see the conspiratorial micro-managers all chiming in.

If you don't want them spending the extra $5 on their nefarious schemes, buy the full membership and don'y give them the extra $5.

Gentlemen,

The $15 amount is an approximate cost for budgetary purposes that could fluctuate depending on the number of members who are current at any given time and the number of magazines we order to fulfill current members at different times of the year. That total also includes a small portion that is subsidized by the PDGA from other income streams, therefore the entire amount cannot be passed on to a magazine optional member as a discount or the organization could potentially lose money. In either scenario, $10 or $15 for six issues of a new magazine is a great deal and I would encourage you all to receive it.

Rick Rothstein was free to submit a proposal for magazine services just as the other vendors but he chose not to. I spoke with Rick at the Worlds and he told me that he needed a break. I can certainly understand where he is coming from but I will still miss Disc Golf World News and we here at the PDGA office wish Rick the very best in whatever he decides to do.

The RFP accomplished exactly what they are supposed to, in that the new provider will be giving us more for less. PDGA members will receive two extra issues a year and the cost to the Association is less than we were previously paying for four issues. Only time will tell if the quality is as good or better than DGW.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

Thanks for the reply, Brian. I first met Rick at his event in '91 and did a little work for him at the Port Arthur Worlds. He struck me as very passionate about the sport and his contribution to it. We all wish him the best along with Lynne, Gregg, and all the rest who've helped out with the mag every year.

Are members going to get the first issue before we get to decide?

Are members going to get the first issue before we get to decide?


LMAO!

If you don't want them spending the extra $5 on their nefarious schemes, buy the full membership and don'y give them the extra $5.


Sadly, this might be the last nail in the coffin to cause me to decide to by no membership at all.

why do so many people not enjoy the magazine?

i think the magazine is one of the best things about being a PDGA member.

i think the magazine is one of the worst things about being a PDGA member.
Half the magazine is ads and the PDGA still had to support it financially? What a joke! Or, more likely, someone's pocket was being seriously padded.

i think the magazine is one of the worst things about being a PDGA member.
Half the magazine is ads and the PDGA still had to support it financially? What a joke! Or, more likely, someone's pocket was being seriously padded.



You know any magazine ads that are in a magazine get there by paying the PUBLISHER right??? Then people go to the STORE and buy the magazine for about 5 bucks an issue..........So really the PDGA is BUYING the magazine for us.........NOT supporting it finacially!!! So either buy it or dont buy it but I agree with it being THE BEST part of being a PDGA member........Well other than being a member saving me money every year :D:D:D

i think the magazine is one of the worst things about being a PDGA member.
Half the magazine is ads and the PDGA still had to support it financially? What a joke! Or, more likely, someone's pocket was being seriously padded.



You know any magazine ads that are in a magazine get there by paying the PUBLISHER right??? Then people go to the STORE and buy the magazine for about 5 bucks an issue..........So really the PDGA is BUYING the magazine for us.........NOT supporting it finacially!!! So either buy it or dont buy it but I agree with it being THE BEST part of being a PDGA member........Well other than being a member saving me money every year :D:D:D


Good magazines are not done through publishers. Most magazines are done in house, they gain all the ad sales and reap all the profits. Then they outsource the publishing (sometimes directly, sometimes through a publisher).

Most magazines make more then enough to cover expenses by just the ad placements, then any sales, subscriptions are icing.

I worked in the publishing industry for a long time and now how it all works.

The problem is the PDGA to do it themselves would need to start the magazine. They would need writers, editors, layout people etc, and being what the PDGA is... they just don't have the starting budget to do it. Therefore we have to rely on publishers and outsourcing, and loose profit from the ads.

Another thing I don't like is using newstand pricing to tempt us with the value.

Sports Illustrated 52 issues... subscription price 30.00 or lower
I can continue over and over again with the actual subscription cost of magazines and the prices. Many below 19.00 for 12 issues, some below 10.00 for 12 issues.

You also have to remember how many people those magazines are reaching!!! Possibly millions and millions of people a month........Not 10000 every 2 months!!! Those magazines can AFFORD to have cheap cheap subscriptions..........This magazine on the other hand cannot unless they were planning on putting it into say a Borders or Barnes and Noble or something of the sort and even then how many people would even buy it???

You also have to remember how many people those magazines are reaching!!! Possibly millions and millions of people a month........Not 10000 every 2 months!!! Those magazines can AFFORD to have cheap cheap subscriptions..........This magazine on the other hand cannot unless they were planning on putting it into say a Borders or Barnes and Noble or something of the sort and even then how many people would even buy it???



EXACTLY!!! The market will not support a disc golf magazine. PDGA members (up until next year) have been artificially propping up a publication with (if Mr. Graham's figures translate into the past) $15 per member, whether they want the magazine or not.

I was hoping (with rose-colored glasses, apparently) that the "opt out" membership would remove that subsidy, but it looks like PDGA members will be floating a magazine to the tune of $5 apiece, even if they choose not to even receive the product.

To be honest with you if your that worried about 15 dollars in the 1st place maybe you should not be playing PDGA events or even spending the money to be a PDGA member??? Or even buying dics for that matter since almost any disc now costs ATLEAST 8 bucks.

Go to a park.......Sell a Champ or Z Disc and stop crying about the 15 dollars it costs to get 6 copys of the magazine.

I cry not about spending x dollars for a magazine, but for subsidizing a magazine that I don't even want with <u>any</u> dollars.


maybe you should not be spending the money to be a PDGA member


That might be a good idea, as it apparently will be the only way to avoid such a subsidy.

What im saying is its so small why does it even matter at all??? Its not like you are spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars for something you dont want.........We are mearly spending the price of a golf disc which shouldnt be that big of an issue at all........Thats just my 2 cents

I cry not about spending x dollars for a magazine, but for subsidizing a magazine that I don't even want with <u>any</u> dollars.


maybe you should not be spending the money to be a PDGA member


That might be a good idea, as it apparently will be the only way to avoid such a subsidy.



The PDGA is working towards trying to legitimize disc golf as a professional sport in the publics eyes. It seems to me that supporting a magazine dedicated to disc golf surely is a worthwhile investment towards that end. Every sport, that I can think of, that has a major professional league has (at least) a magazine to present the sport, its sponsors, its players and its activities to the public. A magazine such as World Disc News absolutely lent credibility to our sport. When I was able to show to my family (all non-disc golfers) my name in a real magazine because of how I played in a tournament they started to look at the time and energy that I put into our local course ,and the sport in general, as something other than a completely wasteful drain on my time and resources. Well, at least a little less of a wasteful drain.

I see the return on that investment as being very good for the future of our sport. Certainly in comparison to anything else you could get for $5.00 per member. Do you support the PDGA by being a member only for the services that you immediately get, or are you supporting the growth of the sport. The goals of the PDGA are clearly stated in the mission statement (http://www.pdga.com/org/documents/2006/MissionStatement03Summit.pdf). These are the goals you sign up to by becoming a member.

Stan....Well said.

BUMP ! :D

agreed... well put Stan.

this just in... people are complaining on another thread that the PDGA is contributing to youth programs and theres another where someone has the idea that as soon as they send in the dues they should be sent back in a SASE with interest.

come on people!

A magazine such as World Disc News absolutely lent credibility to our sport.

Great post Stan. I couldn't agree more. I keep an issue in my truck to page through while I'm picking up my kids from school or other activities. It has come in handy when I'm discussing the sport to someone for the first time. Instant credibility. My neighbor and newly elected alderman didn't have a clue about disc golf but was forced to learn about it when a plan to put in a childrens 9 hole course in a city park was proposed to the city counsel. He came to me and I told him all about the sport. It was when I pulled out an issue of DGWN that he said, "Wow, I didn't realize it was this big of a sport."

I disagree. If the magazine started being sold at newstands then it may do what you are saying. Do you realize how many small sport and interest magazines borders and other book stores carry? Almost anyone can get a magazine published in this day and age. It leads to some credibility, but not as much as if it was actually for sale someplace. Unless we get to te point where the magazine is non PDGA sanctioned and sold as subscription, and in newstands I don't agree that it is any more then a big club newsletter.

I also hope that with the new publisher comes better articles, stories and content then has been in the past few years.

$5, come on Vegan Ray!

If you believe in the sport, you have to support some causes that might not directly effect you. It is easier to give time than money, but $5 for soemthing you might not care much for that does a lot for the sport isn't asking a whole lot. The PDGA listened when they even came up with options.

Heck, I just traveled from Charlotte back to Iowa for a funeral and took five Disc Golf Magazines with me only to deposit them on benches around the Charlotte and O'Hara airports. You never know who may be turned on.

It is not the $$, Jay, it's the principle. The "opt-out" is not at all an "opt-out" if you're saving $10 for something that costs $15; it is merely a cunningly disguised way to get those who have no interest in paying for a magazine to subsidize it anyway. I have nothing against a disc golf publication, in fact I think DGM is a fantastic magazine. And its FREE. And if it weren't, I could choose whether to pay for it or leave it on the shelf. The PDGA gave members no such luxury with DGW, nor will it (thought it pays lip service to doing so) with the new rag.

can someone provide a contact point for the new magazine, in case we are interested in contributing content?

ray, give it a rest. don't nitpick everything...how can you not see Yeti's logic?

it's a step in the right direction, ray. don't cut the new BOD's head off or they'll revert to their old tyrannical ways. we'll never see what our $$$ is spent on if people can't appreciate the change (however small) in the direction.

I disagree. If the magazine started being sold at newstands then it may do what you are saying.



That's true, it may not. But, it definitely won't do it if it doesn't exist at all.



Do you realize how many small sport and interest magazines borders and other book stores carry? Almost anyone can get a magazine published in this day and age. It leads to some credibility, but not as much as if it was actually for sale someplace. Unless we get to te point where the magazine is non PDGA sanctioned and sold as subscription, and in newstands I don't agree that it is any more then a big club newsletter.




How does it's PDGA sanctioning affect whether or not the magazine finally makes it into newstands or non-members mailboxes? It will make it there if the magazine is good and interest in the sport has grown enough whether or not it's PDGA sanctioned.



I also hope that with the new publisher comes better articles, stories and content then has been in the past few years.



I'm not going to disparage the previous efforts, but like all publications things were hit and miss. I understand that it's probably very difficult to get quality content on a regular basis to please the wide spectrum of people that play disc golf. I personally liked some of the articles in each issue and skipped some of them. I have high hopes for this next incarnation also.

On that subject... What is it that you'd like to see more of in a disc golf magazine? What less of?

Matt,

Obviously your publishing industry experience has given you a different and slightly negative opinion of DGWN. That's too bad. Some of us are trying to use it as a tool to get the word out about disc golf and its many benefits. Some people actually enjoy reading it. I suppose there are people out there that don't care one way or the other about it. Have you thought about offering your (publishing) experience to the PDGA to help the magazine become worthy of being sold on newstands? I'd suggest you try giving away your current or next issue to someone that knows very little or nothing about disc golf. They will probably find value you in it that you do not. That act of kindness on your part will possibly help grow the sport and it will probably make you feel good too. Take a negative and make a positive.

can someone provide a contact point for the new magazine, in case we are interested in contributing content?

ray, give it a rest. don't nitpick everything...how can you not see Yeti's logic?

it's a step in the right direction, ray. don't cut the new BOD's head off or they'll revert to their old tyrannical ways. we'll never see what our $$$ is spent on if people can't appreciate the change (however small) in the direction.



I see Yeti's logic, and I see how a reasonable person could think that way. I just do not think that same way and am expressing my opinion (not "cutting anybody's head off").

McDonalds meal: burger $3 + $1 coke + $1 fry = $4.50
Vegan Ray: Hey if I order the meal and don't want the burger, I should be able to get my fries for 50 cents. What do you mean I need to pay $1 for those fries. Where's my 50 cents going? :D

Jumping on the McDonald's analogy, let's say the membership had been $40 for Ams and DGWN didn't exist. Then, the following year you could pay $40 like before or $50 and also get this slick color magazine. I think most would think that was a good deal and get the magazine membership AND feel that the org was providing a good membership value.

To some people, the magazine is old news and perhaps isn't as interesting as it might have been before the Internet. However, just about everything in each issue might be new to someone just getting into the sport or who had never heard of it. If you think about six magazines for $10 simply as great public relations literature, even if you never read it, I suggest that if you believe in supporting the sport and its growth, get the full membership next year with magazine and put the mailing address for the subscription as your Park Director or Convention Bureau. Or, get it yourself, don't even break the seal and give it to someone different every two months who might make a difference.

It's going to subsidize McDonald's overhead, just as the $5 is subsidizing the overhead of making of a glorified PDGA newsletter, which I may choose not to do.

Just imagine how you'd feel if your gift of a magazine ended up being to the 2022 Worlds or USDGC champion. I think of that everytime I give a kid a disc to keep. What if this old buzz or roc gives this kid something other to do than get in trouble? I probably will never know either way but you have to believe the glass is half full instead of half empty.

It should be no surprise that a large portion of the dues for any org this size with paid staff and HQ building is going to cover overhead. If you expect to only pay for the direct cost of each of the services you want, the org goes under. The days of only getting services on the backs of volunteer efforts will continue to disappear as the sport grows.

hmmm... not so sure chuck... staff salaries ARE direct costs, just like the consultants we pay are direct costs. i doubt anyone will argue that much. the fact that the mag was at $15 of a $50 membership (~30%) was the issue here. if {insert member benefit here} cost $15 we've prolly have more people who wanted to support the PDGA but didnt want to pay that much for {insert member benefit here}. the imbalance occured when a fair number of members decided the value they received was nowhere close to 30% of the cash they put up.

So, for the people that registered for X number of years, what is their option so far as getting or not getting the magazine?

I fall into this category, and I'll be glad to just keep getting the magazine, but I was just curious if this had been addressed.

Sandal, I'm surprised you consider staff and some consultant fees direct costs in relation to providing member services. Most of that time is not involved in providing direct benefits to a specific member. If a member nevers calls the PDGA in a year, they still pay for the people there to respond to all of the other member requests, to communicate with park people, media, promote the sport, manage the staff and volunteers, help run majors, run the tour, host Summits, manage the budget, etc. That's mostly overhead activities.

The complicating factor with the magazine is that it's not just some independent publication that the PDGA got a good deal on to provide to members. It's a tangible piece of written info that officially communicates with members. My thinking would be that those who opt out of the magazine will/should receive some alternate written material in the mail that provides the core elements of member communication that are already in the mag. In which case, the $5 diff between the mag cost and the member discount would go to pay for producing and mailing that separate communication piece every 2 months. Is that correct?

So, for the people that registered for X number of years, what is their option so far as getting or not getting the magazine?



I would think you get your four issues a year that you paid for in advance and just pay for the extra two...(j/k) :D

The $5 difference is not to subsidize the magazine. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif It's a hidden cost supporting the communist takeover. Oh wait, you don't think it's going to terrorists do you? :eek:

BTW - Let me begin by saying I like and support Brian G. But the foregone conclusion that we're getting more for less seems a little presumptuous at this point. I'm guessing if it were that easy that Rick would have presented a bid, political politeness notwithstanding.

BTW - Let me begin by saying I like and support Brian G. But the foregone conclusion that we're getting more for less seems a little presumptuous at this point. I'm guessing if it were that easy that Rick would have presented a bid, political politeness notwithstanding.



Lyle,

My comment on getting more for less was based solely on the fact that the members will be receiving 6 magazines per year instead of the 4 they have received in years past. The cost to the association for these 6 issues is also less than the cost we have been paying for 4. Please note the last sentence in my last post where I said, "Only time will tell if the quality is as good or better than DGW."

Thanks for your support. The office staff is here for the members and the sport and we do appreciate all of the support we get from everyone.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

I think I'm going to have to be careful about giving you a hard time. Thanks Brian!

can someone provide a contact point for the new magazine, in case we are interested in contributing content?




Try this: [email protected] :D

chuck, you're calling things like talking to parks departments indirect. i call them direct because they are services provided for the members by the association. an incredibly small percentage of any staff/consultant time is spent on any one pariciular member. we probably agree on everything but some semantics

I'm just saying from a member perspective, there are direct benefits like a magazine that has a measurable direct cost to provide this service for every member. Likewise, every member gets a membership packet with their card and a few other mailings where the direct cost can be pinned down pretty well. The costs of managing the tour along with results and ratings on the web for every member (even if they don't play their name shows up online) can also be pinned down pretty well. I think the cost of providing the Discussion Board can also be pinned down pretty well as can the costs of providing and grading the Officials test and providing cards against the fees collected.

Going beyond that, most everything else is a nebulous benefit to members (essentially overhead) of doing good things "for the benefit of the sport" that would be hard to pin down the cost other than the total of every other expense paid by the PDGA not part of the direct benefit costs mentioned above. Some would call that overhead from a direct member benefit standpoint. From the standpoint of Brian and the Board members budgeting, many of these would be considered direct costs from the perspective of providing a certain type of support "for the benefit of the sport" that could be selectively paid for or not as the budget priorities allow.

i cant believe this issue is THIS big. People are THAT upset over five to ten dollars over a magazine. Do you know newsstand prices? 4, 5, 6, up to 8 dollars for ONE magazine.

Eat one less McDonalds meal over the entire year for crying out loud. There, your connection to DG News is paid for.

This is the most ridiculous idea, concern, whatever you want to classify it under that I have EVER heard.

opt outs?!? BLAH!

If you don't want them spending the extra $5 on their nefarious schemes, buy the full membership and don'y give them the extra $5.


Sadly, this might be the last nail in the coffin to cause me to decide to by no membership at all.




This is the type of backwards thinking that is holding our sport back.

But then again, what would you expect from a vegan. :o

If you believe in the sport, you have to support some causes that might not directly effect you. It is easier to give time than money, but $5 for something you might not care much for that does a lot for the sport isn't asking a whole lot. The PDGA listened when they even came up with options.

Heck, I just traveled from Charlotte back to Iowa for a funeral and took five Disc Golf Magazines with me only to deposit them on benches around the Charlotte and O'Hara airports. You never know who may be turned on.



Good post, JR. I have occasionally deposited copies of DGWN at my doctor's and dentist's waiting rooms. These publications come in handy when prospecting new sponsors, soliciting municipalities for a course or simply educating Joe Public about the game. Most people have never heard of disc golf and these magazines are a great tool to get the word out about the sport we hope to see grow.

If you don't want them spending the extra $5 on their nefarious schemes, buy the full membership and don'y give them the extra $5.


Sadly, this might be the last nail in the coffin to cause me to decide to by no membership at all.




This is the type of backwards thinking that is holding our sport back.

But then again, what would you expect from a vegan. :o



You're right, the sport would be much healthier if everybody accepted everything the PDGA decided to do without question, without debate, and without dissent. The BOD, in their infinite wisdom, would lead us blindly to Shangri La like a happy pack of lemmings.

Now that's the kind of thinking I expect from an Okie. :o

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. :p

Somewhere there is a comunity looking for a "pillar" like you.

Spend $1 for a bus pass and go find it.

Your wheel is turning but your hamster is dead. :p

If it weren't for DGW, I would have never found the greatest putter in the world - Discraft Banger-GT. ;-) I first saw it in the mag and decided to buy a few. Sure, I can browse the net, read articles, etc, but it is nice to have a magazine in hand while sitting at the airport, doctor office, etc.

I will continue to support the PDGA and DGW. It will do nothing but promote the game I love.

The board views getting the information to the members (the PDGA gets 14 pages in the new mag) as important and therefore voted to subsidize the price of the mag a bit to encourage folks to get it. Also, the price of the mag depends a bit on the number of PDGA members that opt to subscribe and could be a bit lower than the anticipated $14.70. Bearing in mind the price will be $14.70 or less per member, assuming we want to use nice round numbers, $10 was the sensible choice.

As I see it, there were three options:

1. Set the opt out at a $15 discount - thus losing money when the PDGA does not get its info out to members.
2. Set the opt out at $14.70 (or whatever the actual cost is) - thus creating a serious management headache for TDs.
3. Set the opt out at a $10 discount - thus subsidizing (and encouraging) members to get the magazine and the PDGA info - which is what we really want.

I voted (and proposed) option 3.

----------------

There will be an electronic version of the PDGA pages in the mag on the PDGA site available as a PDF file. No info will be mailed if folks do not get the mag.

---------------

And one last defensive point, imo it is refreshing that the PDGA went ahead and gave us all the numbers rather than trying to hide the fact that we want the magazine to succeed and get to members - and we therefore are willing to subsidize the mag to the tune of $5 / member. Also, PDGA members will be getting more issues (6 vs. 4), more pages (at least 80 in the new mag), and a better bound mag printed (with soy based inks) on glossy recycled paper.

By putting out the magazine RFP, we got lower costs and better services (assuming similar qualify). The magazine RFP will be put up for bid every three years (I think that is what we decided) and I expect within a decade it will become free to PDGA members and this debate will go away like a potent fart in a nice headwind.

Also, PDGA members will be getting more issues (6 vs. 4), more pages (at least 80 in the new mag), and a better bound mag printed (with soy based inks) on glossy recycled paper.

By putting out the magazine RFP, we got lower costs and better services (assuming similar qualify).



Steve-

What protections has (or will) the PDGA put in place within this contract in case these assumptions of quality are not met?

The specifications of the job sound great. However, it takes a lot more than page-counts, soy-based ink and recycled paper to produce a magazine that is interesting and valuable to the PDGA and its membership.

Thanks,

-Dave

If it weren't for DGW, I would have never found the greatest putter in the world - Discraft Banger-GT. ;-) I first saw it in the mag and decided to buy a few. Sure, I can browse the net, read articles, etc, but it is nice to have a magazine in hand while sitting at the airport, doctor office, etc.

I will continue to support the PDGA and DGW. It will do nothing but promote the game I love.




Thanks, I was starting to believe I was the only member that likes DGW. I just hope the new one is as good.

...like a potent fart in a nice headwind.



The Great Communicator :D

i think jason wrote that line

If it weren't for DGW, I would have never found the greatest putter in the world - Discraft Banger-GT. ;-) I first saw it in the mag and decided to buy a few. Sure, I can browse the net, read articles, etc, but it is nice to have a magazine in hand while sitting at the airport, doctor office, etc.

I will continue to support the PDGA and DGW. It will do nothing but promote the game I love.




Thanks, I was starting to believe I was the only member that likes DGW. I just hope the new one is as good.



Did you get that impression because 0.1% of the membership dislikes it enough to complain on the message board?

Thanks to the BOD for taking a good thing forward with the bigger, and hopefully even better, magazine and the opt-out option for those who must have it.

Also, PDGA members will be getting more issues (6 vs. 4), more pages (at least 80 in the new mag), and a better bound mag printed (with soy based inks) on glossy recycled paper.

By putting out the magazine RFP, we got lower costs and better services (assuming similar qualify).



Steve-

What protections has (or will) the PDGA put in place within this contract in case these assumptions of quality are not met?

The specifications of the job sound great. However, it takes a lot more than page-counts, soy-based ink and recycled paper to produce a magazine that is interesting and valuable to the PDGA and its membership.

Thanks,

-Dave



Besides the contract, I know of none. If the magazine is not 80 pages, is not delivered every two months, or is not disc golf related, I suspect the publisher would potentially lose a lot of money.

I am hoping the soy based ink makes the articles even more interesting. And if they are not, we can alwayys eat the mag.

Sadly, this might be the last nail in the coffin to cause me to decide to by no membership at all.


I like how you mentioned not renewing twice. I think that�s a good idea for you (this is the second thread today I had to read your nonsence on), But maybe you can apply the $5 that you feel you are being screwed out of to keep complaining about everything and anything about disc golf or the PDGA on the discussion board.




I think the magazine is a good perk, so much so, that unlike some others and can�t bring myself to give it away. I am all for the betterment of the sport and the PDGA. I think they are doing some good things, such as the RFP to find the best deal for the magazine.

Think of the PDGA like a church you give them money for something you believe in, but unlike the church you get stat tracking and a magazine.

I am hoping the soy based ink makes the articles even more interesting. And if they are not, we can alwayys eat the mag.


Now I get the McDonald's analogy.

.....I thought it meant, like McDonald's, you pay money for something that is bad for you and will probably end up giving you diabetes or cancer.

Why do a few members consistantly hit rock bottom and continue to dig? :confused:

Sadly, this might be the last nail in the coffin to cause me to decide to by no membership at all.


I like how you mentioned not renewing twice. I think that�s a good idea for you (this is the second thread today I had to read your nonsence on), But maybe you can apply the $5 that you feel you are being screwed out of to keep complaining about everything and anything about disc golf or the PDGA on the discussion board.




I think the magazine is a good perk, so much so, that unlike some others and can�t bring myself to give it away. I am all for the betterment of the sport and the PDGA. I think they are doing some good things, such as the RFP to find the best deal for the magazine.

Think of the PDGA like a church you give them money for something you believe in, but unlike the church you get stat tracking and a magazine.



I don't know what "nonsence" is, but I am sorry you think my posts are it. And I am doubly sorry that someone is apparently forcing you to read them. Just so you know, I am 100% against anyone being forced to do something against her will, so if I find out who your captor is, I will make sure he feels the force of my wrath.

I, also, am 100% for the betterment of disc golf. I am not sure that the PDGA is the best caretaker to further that goal, but I also believe that it is doing some good things. I also think that it is doing some not-so-good things, so, in the interest of the betterment of disc golf, I feel it is my duty to bring those things up for debate.

Whether or not I renew will be decided by my analysis (in December) of whether I think that the PDGA is the best way to spend my $70 toward the betterment of disc golf, or if I think some other organization, project, or person would spend my $$ more wisely and/or efficiently to better the sport.

Don't worry Scott, you may be at rock bottom.....but look at K-fed! If a non-bathing, wife-beater-wearing, doosh-container can make it big, then even a non-bathing, ungroomed, unskilled, pachuli-oil-smelling-Oklahomo has hope. Don't give up! Just go to McD's and splurge, you'll feel better in the morning.

I like the idea of you not renewing. That will show the PDGA. :confused:

Whether or not I renew will be decided by my analysis (in December) of whether I think that the PDGA is the best way to spend my $70 toward the betterment of disc golf, or if I think some other organization, project, or person would spend my $$ more wisely and/or efficiently to better the sport.



Vegan.

I�m sure you will renew because if you don�t, you will no longer have a microphone or forum to gripe or debate your issues or problems with the PDGA. You will be on the outside looking in. The thought of you leaving or even pondering the idea is causing me to lose sleep at night and the drama you create reminds me of the drama and conflicts between Barney Fife and Otis. You only have one bullet.

Don�t shoot yourself in the foot over $5. :confused:

I get a $5 discount on my membership by renewing through the TDSA club affiliate program. Surely there is a club or group of people that will allow you to throw in with them for the same discount. Think about what this magazine can do for you. Maybe they will accept and print your PDGA conspircy issues so you can reach more people that may not have access to a computer. :)

ya know, belittling someone for saying whats on their mind is really not necessary. i would much rather read extremely critical commentary than snide comments whose purpose seems only to make someone with a different view look foolish.

I am hoping the soy based ink makes the articles even more interesting. And if they are not, we can always eat the mag.




Perhaps the ink or paper can come in seasonal smells/flavors, but only for the pro version so they get that added value for their higher dues? :p

Vegan's just positioning himself to get a free membership like Hawk got last year. (http://www.pdga.com/documents/boardminutes/2006-12-06BODMeetingMinutesApproved.pdf)

Lazy,
I like how you edited out your extremely clever (LOL) argumetnum ad hominem just after I got a chance to enjoy it.

Ok. You're right. I toned it down just for you but maybe not as much as you might expect because you've probably never have belittled anyone over their views. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I apoligize Vegan but I disagree with your point of view. I feel your "threating not to renew" is like crying wolf. I've heard it plenty of times since I've been a member but it seems like next year those guys are always back crying wolf about something else that they feel the PDGA is screwing them on. :confused:

Lazy,
I like how you edited out your extremely clever (LOL) argumetnum ad hominem just after I got a chance to enjoy it.



Ok. Now you're using big words. I'm going to have to go find a dictionary now. :( :confused: ;)

Vegan's just positioning himself to get a free membership like Hawk got last year. (http://www.pdga.com/documents/boardminutes/2006-12-06BODMeetingMinutesApproved.pdf)




Motion (P. Brenner/S. Dodge)
That G. A. Hawk Corrick be given an Am membership for 2007.
For: P. Brenner Against: T. Pozzy, S. Dodge, C. Bellinger, J. Lyksett, B. Decker, P. May
<font color="red"> Motion Not Passed </font>


I don't see where a free membership was given???

Did you not read the following line where members of the BOD ponied up personally?

I guess I was like wtf when I read not passed.
That is intresting that they would want him as a member so bad that they would all chip in $10. Maybe I need to find some new friends in the PDGA to pay for my membership.

This discussion has occurred before and since the Board is much modified since then I will weigh in. As I understand it (second hand info) the situation was a complex one where there was a disagreement on the Board. The offer to pay for the membership probably had more to do with keeping a professional working atmosphere on the Board than doing something for Hawk. Funny how good leaders will do that and bad ones will create conflicts.

On the other hand, one might, and should ask the question: Why in the world would a Board member bring a motion to discuss giving a free membership away under any conditions and especially to a highly vocal critic of our organization?

way to avoid creating conflict :)

unfortunately, your second hand info is incorrect. the offer to pay for Hawk's membership was stated as necessary in order to avoid making it look like Hawk was Not Wanted as a member. in other words, after i made the motion, some of the BoD felt they needed to pay for his membership since they voted against an honorary one.


On the other hand, one might, and should ask the question: Why in the world would a Board member bring a motion to discuss giving a free membership away under any conditions

well, this wasnt the first case of a request for an honorary membership. are you sure you want to ask that question in that tone? i followed the established protocol that was used for previous identical requests, the BoD made its decision, and we moved on.

way to avoid creating conflict :)

unfortunately, your second hand info is incorrect. the offer to pay for Hawk's membership was stated as necessary in order to avoid making it look like Hawk was Not Wanted as a member. in other words, after i made the motion, some of the BoD felt they needed to pay for his membership since they voted against an honorary one.


On the other hand, one might, and should ask the question: Why in the world would a Board member bring a motion to discuss giving a free membership away under any conditions

well, this wasnt the first case of a request for an honorary membership. are you sure you want to ask that question in that tone? i followed the established protocol that was used for previous identical requests, the BoD made its decision, and we moved on.



Now why would you want to accuse me of taking on a tone? There's no tone. Simply a legitimate question, is it not? I repeat, why would we want to give a free membership to an outspoken critic of the organization? BTW - how were past requests for honorary memberships dealt with? Oh yeah, I stand by my initial guess that the rational for offering to pay had more to do with the Board than offending Hawk. Logically speaking, why would the Board give a hoot about offending Hawk? Frankly, I would see that as a perk in voting the request down.

"why would we want to give a free membership to an outspoken critic of the organization"... that question has been addressed on other threads long ago.

sure your question is a legitimate question. i was addressing the "Why in the world would a Board member bring a motion to discuss giving a free membership away under any conditions" part of it. the ByLaws state in section 2.1 "The Board may, in its discretion, issue certificates of membership to those persons elected or appointed to membership status." its a reasonable assumption that the Members in their wisdom bestowed this power on the BoD because they thought such membership appointments are sometimes warranted and they trusted the BoD with responsibility for such decisions. so... the BoD was asked, it declined. the members were served. end of story.

everything after that is a seperate issue. i listened to the discussion about paying for a membership, but didnt partiicpate. as you say, "Logically speaking, why would the Board give a hoot about offending Hawk?" i dont claim to know or understand all aspects of all sides of that discussion, and can only recount what i remember as the gist of it.

there are precedents in the old minutes. i found at least one a while ago, but dont remember which month it was. they are available online (http://www.pdga.com/org/boardminutes.php) for the convenience of your research :cool:

"the Members in their wisdom bestowed this power on the BoD"

"they trusted the BoD with responsibility for such decisions"

Can I get my posting privileges suspended just for quoting PDGA board member Pat Brenner, even if those quotations reveal some *** inconsistencies? :D

i dunno. i doubt it, but lets find out :)

now lets get back to mag opt out discussion. apologies for my role in the thread hijack

Twas my fault for the reference.

Anyway, did we get an answer to this question. If you pre-paid for a number of years, am I correct to assume that we still get the new magazine?

i think thats a safe assumption. i sent a note to Addie asking her, i'll let ya know for sure.

Can we get back to blasting the Vegan for not supporting the advancement of the the sport...please.

"Why in the world would a Board member bring a motion to discuss giving a free membership away under any conditions" part of it. the ByLaws state in section 2.1 "The Board may, in its discretion, issue certificates of membership to those persons elected or appointed to membership status." its a reasonable assumption that the Members in their wisdom bestowed this power on the BoD because they thought such membership appointments are sometimes warranted and they trusted the BoD with responsibility for such decisions. so... the BoD was asked, it declined. the members were served. end of story.



Too true, but in giving this power to the Board wouldn't we expect them to use some discretion in how it was used? That is, bestowing it on those who are worthy, so to speak? Also, if the membership bestows the power to make decisions concerning the running of the organization on the Board, is that universal, or only in certain things? It seems to me that in the past the argument was made that the Board should not be allowed too much power in making decisions and that there should be a lot more member oversight.

Given the poor choice of Hawk as a possible candidate for a free membership, it might be that this is one area where the members do need to have a say?

Can we get back to blasting the Vegan for not supporting the advancement of the the sport...please.



There are many ways in which one might support the growth of the sport, and much disagreement in how that might be accomplished. While I find Vegan's concerns over the cost of the magazine to be amusing, the concept that the path we've gone down to get to this point may not have served the organization well seems much more important to me. I eagerly await the new magazine to see how well the RFP process will serve us. At that time, I will decide whether I want to jump in with Vegan, of course after putting on my hobnail boots.

BTW - for the past 15 or so years Big Business in America has followed a number of "apparently obvious" paths in how they pursue vendors and business relationships. Given the shabby results of many of those deals one has to question the accepted norm. We've gone full bore down a path to get better service for our membership and I am yet to be convinced this will pay off. However, it would be foolish to prematurely judge.

Whatever Lyle...don't try to confuse us with your long distracting post. :D

If for whatever reason you do not want the magazine that is fine. But complaining about 5 dollars when the PDGA has given you an option is just plain selfish.

Mike, Addies confirms that yes, Members who have prepaid years will continue to receive the magazine as expected.

Whatever Lyle...don't try to confuse us with your long distracting post. :D

If for whatever reason you do not want the magazine that is fine. But complaining about 5 dollars when the PDGA has given you an option is just plain selfish.



I don't know if I'd call it selfish, boorish maybe or more likely a waste of time given the relative value. Selfish would imply that Vegan is somehow doing the PDGA wrong in wanting to keep his $5 in his pocket implying he owes something. Now, despite being an avid supporter of the PDGA, even I can recognize that Vegan doesn't somehow owe the PDGA.

That said, I fully recognize that the value given for the money paid is well worthwhile, or at least has been in the past. Even still, it'd have to get pretty bad for the value not to be worth the $ we currently pay.

BTW - one of my favorite profs in business school was a strong advocate of taking care of your money, no matter how much it was. He'd of been in there scrambling for his $5. BTW - he's the entrepreneur who started SCI and made millions off it. Vegan may be grating you, but you can't argue that his wanting to take care of money is a bad thing.

How could posting the PDGA announcement about the new magazine options, then posing for debate the valid question:

So if a member decides to opt out of the magazine where does the difference between the $15 the PDGA is saving &amp; the mere $10 that the member is saving go? Is there a special fund for as-yet-unannounced benefits for magazine-opter-outers, or is this a hidden subsidy for magazine itself, or the PDGA's coffers?


be seen as boorish (unless one is of the mindset that everyone who disagrees with her point of view is boorish)? I try (even when provoked) to conduct my discourse with the utmost civility on this MB, and take GREAT offense at an accusation of rudeness, especially looking around &amp; seeing the truly boorish posting that occurs with great frequency here.

Waste of time, probably, just as trying to engage in any meaningful, civilized debate on this MB is a waste of time.

I knew you were paying attention! :D

Being the king of boorish, I only bestow the title on those who can take it.

I've seen the price difference being used here in almost every business scenario I've ever run into; from selling cars to newspapers. It is very common. the typical argument is that it costs the company money to opt you out. Is $5 the real cost of opting you out? Com'on! Is it a real benefit to the PDGA? Com'on! The amount they're going to clear on it is small at best. Furthermore, they add in an impetus to get you to take the magazine, not that our organization would try and manipulate it's membership or anything (after all, we've got Pat there to stop that!). They're simply making sure they don't come out in the negative on the exchange. I'd actually call it responsible.

Now we're talking, a milliliter of thoughtful discussion in an ocean of keyboard-diarrhea. :D

I guess this means I don't get to blast you anymore. :( ;)

Blast away! My Gremlin-hide is very thick. :cool:

I'm sorry. I can't. My SuperSoaker has ran out of water. :(....

Do you have any other issues we can disagree about? :)

If so I'll run home and get more water. :D

Whatever Lyle...don't try to confuse us with your long distracting post. :D

If for whatever reason you do not want the magazine that is fine. But complaining about 5 dollars when the PDGA has given you an option is just plain selfish.



I don't know if I'd call it selfish, boorish maybe or more likely a waste of time given the relative value. Selfish would imply that Vegan is somehow doing the PDGA wrong in wanting to keep his $5 in his pocket implying he owes something. Now, despite being an avid supporter of the PDGA, even I can recognize that Vegan doesn't somehow owe the PDGA.

That said, I fully recognize that the value given for the money paid is well worthwhile, or at least has been in the past. Even still, it'd have to get pretty bad for the value not to be worth the $ we currently pay.



Once again Lyle you are way off base.

The Definition of selfishness:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

<font color="red"> Selfishness is an noun denoting the precedence given in thought or deed to self interests and self concerns, the act of placing one's own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others.
</font>
Which is exactly what the vegan's motives are.

natural selection is selfish

Using that reasoning, it is selfish of me not to donate my entire net worth to the PDGA; I am selfishly putting my interest in feeding &amp; clothing my family above the interests of those who believe that every dollar the PDGA gets translates into the "betterment of the sport".

Your entire net worth is only 5 dollars??? :(

Maybe you should start eating meat...its cheaper.

I'd rather see the magazine completely not related to the PDGA, and remove all cost of it from the membership, then just send out magazine yearly subscriptions to the members, from and paid for by the magazine (not the pdga). I think it's time for the our sport to be doing what it should, and not having every egg in there own basket is probably a better thing.

I'd rather see the magazine completely not related to the PDGA, and remove all cost of it from the membership, then just send out magazine yearly subscriptions to the members, from and paid for by the magazine (not the pdga). I think it's time for the our sport to be doing what it should, and not having every egg in there own basket is probably a better thing.



That would certainly be the death of the disc golf magazine.

Maybe you should start eating meat...its cheaper.


That is the most ignorant thing I have ever read on this MB, and that's a T-A-L-L order! :D

I'd rather see the magazine completely not related to the PDGA, and remove all cost of it from the membership, then just send out magazine yearly subscriptions to the members, from and paid for by the magazine (not the pdga). I think it's time for the our sport to be doing what it should, and not having every egg in there own basket is probably a better thing.



That would certainly be the death of the disc golf magazine.


Wow, DBP, it seems that you've stumbled onto the crux of my argument. If the market will not support a magazine, why should the PDGA provide a "captive audience" to prop one up? Particularly, why should it decree that members who don't even wish to receive such a publication subsidize it to the tune of 12.5% of their dues (for Ams, assuming that dues do not go up for 2008)?

I guess the old adage about a billion monkeys &amp; a billion typewriters is true, after all. :)

Ray, it is possible that if growth continues and the overwhelming majority of members sign up for the mag, then the cost could drop a lot closer to the $10. sure, i would have liked it to be more too, but we probably did the most that was prudent for this year. there is every reason to believe the situation will be evaluated in a year and adjustments made if warranted. it was a fairly significant effort to get this done. its ok to think its not perfect, but why not roll with it for a year and see what everything looks like then.

I'd rather see the magazine completely not related to the PDGA, and remove all cost of it from the membership, then just send out magazine yearly subscriptions to the members, from and paid for by the magazine (not the pdga). I think it's time for the our sport to be doing what it should, and not having every egg in there own basket is probably a better thing.



That would certainly be the death of the disc golf magazine.



Actually what you just said takes the case for most ludicrous belief.

The cost for ads given to the magazine alone should be more then 150% profit alone, if not then even the PDGA buying memberships automatically wouldn't keep it afloat.

For the last Fing time.... Magazines make money and survive on ad placements, not subscriptions. Have you looked at how many pages of the current magazine are ads? and full color ones at that. Do you think those pages are free or cheap? The last full page, specific clientele magazine ad I bought (non color) was contracted for a full year discount at 1900.00 an issue. Ful color raises that price to 3000 plus. BTW this is a localized magazine, not national.

MCOP if there is nobody reading the magazines then why would anyone pay to advertise in them?

for the good of the sport?

Its obvious that some people don't care about that.

Yes, because joining the PDGA and getting the magazine are the only things you can do "for the good of the sport". Everyone else is a disc golf terrorist.

What is wrong with you?

All you have done is offer criticism and destructive arguments.....as usual.

Don't you do the same thing to the NWADGA? :confused:

Yes, because joining the PDGA and getting the magazine are the only things you can do "for the good of the sport". Everyone else is a disc golf terrorist.



Stop the Presses, I agree with 28 003 (licensed to kill).

While I do agree that the magazine is good for the sport, most certainly, there are other more important things to be done. Loss of the magazine which may now happen won't crush the sport by any stretch of the imagination.

What is wrong with you?



This from a man who's post script is: I drive, carry and etc. a magnum?

28003 is using sarcasm. He recognizes that the term terrorism has become a bugaboo. It's the bogyman term used to scare us and make us all jump into compliance to preserve the American (call that Disc Golf) way.

Look, I argue vociferously for the PDGA. But one should be able to deal with reality. The magazine, something that I support and think is a good thing, isn't the end all and be all of this sport. I don't much care about the $5 or even my membership costs. To me it's a donation (I didn't even play a tourney this year and don't have the time to really peruse the magazine these days). But I'm not silly enough to ignore Vegan's complaint especially given the political climate in the organization that has been going on for the past two years.

There have been numerous cries of improprieties of spending and money use, lack of responsibleness to the membership and on and on. Some members of the Board have been leaders in these areas. Well, if you're going to cry foul then you should be willing to step up to the plate in terms of your own actions.

Soooooo, if we're the new, better, more open PDGA then Vegan's questions are legitimate, appropriate and should be answered clearly. What is the breakdown of the funds and how they're going to support the magazine. Why is there a difference and what is the money being being used for? Note that even if the answer is that there is float and the PDGA is covering it's donkey, that's fine, but it needs to be given to us clearly.

Now, I'm confident there is a good rational, I've given some very obvious reasons that I think are sufficient to answer the question (the most legitimate being that it's being used to support the communist takeover) but Vegan, as a member, in an organization that has Board Members who are crying that there has not been enough openness, should have his questions answered.

"loss of the magazine"????? good lord, that is an extremely unlikely scenario. its probably less likely now than it was a year or even 6 months ago. thee is absolutely no reason to plant that kind of fear.

Don't you do the same thing to the NWADGA? :confused:



NWADGA = North Wales Aboriginal Disc Golf Association?

"loss of the magazine"????? good lord, that is an extremely unlikely scenario. its probably less likely now than it was a year or even 6 months ago. thee is absolutely no reason to plant that kind of fear.



You're right, the communists won't take over. Who's afraid? Oh that's right DBP is; I'd argue that Vegan and 28003 aren't all that scared. BTW - neither am I; that is, the prospect that the magazine might fail doesn't scare me.

What I said was "may" Now, if it makes you more comfortable I'll restate. With the the movement of the magazine from it's current publisher, one experienced in working under a fairly fixed cost structure and in a fairly set environment. To one where membership maintenance of subscription is variable and could fluctuate greatly from year to year, the likelihood that the magazine may fail, Pat's assurances notwithstanding, are indeed greater (Please remember that if no members, or few, take the magazine, revenue from manufacturers will indeed go away).

Small magazines fail all the time, the fact that it's the PDGA's magazine doesn't change that.

BTW - failure of it's current incarnation would not mean that there'd never be another disc golf magazine. If somehow I conveyed that fearful possibility to you Pat /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I'm truly sorry.

For the last Fing time.... Magazines make money and survive on ad placements, not subscriptions. Have you looked at how many pages of the current magazine are ads? and full color ones at that. Do you think those pages are free or cheap?



MCOP, what you said may be true for commercial magazines but it is not necessarily so for association magazines and journals. In the association world, it is quite typical for advertising or sponsorship to be a portion, even a small portion, of the overall costs of publishing.

In the case of my own employer-association, our journal has a print run of ~5,800 copies, 5,100 of which go to members who pay for their subscription within their annual dues, and another 300-350 which are subscriptions, mostly from libraries. Advertising and sponsorship doesn't even cover 1/4 of the overall costs association with publishing our journal.

I've been in this field for nearly 20 years and ours is typical of most of the dozens of associations whose publishing directors I have met or correspond with. Some are able to tap into more significant advertising, but they are exceptions.

I still believe that our deal with Disc Golf World was a great one, although I wish the new magazine the very best. I do not believe that we did or will "prop up" a magazine by taking money from members. Instead I believe that we assure a quality magazine for disc golf by working in partnership with a publisher and wisely investing PDGA dollars in that partnership. I think it is unfortunate that the PDGA has caved in to the demands of its most short-sighted members in this matter by providing an opt-out.

what exactly is the employer-association publication? i would bet that disc golf is much more commercially exploitable than an employer-association. maybe this is a not so great comparison?

what exactly is the employer-association publication? i would bet that disc golf is much more commercially exploitable than an employer-association. maybe this is a not so great comparison?


:eek: Don't bring Terry's world to a hault! That's the only argument he has.....as I've heard it 15 times.

Is it true that the only experience that Rich Givens has in publishing is Primal Parenting (http://www.primalparentingmagazine.com/index.html) which has not even released its first issue?
If that is indeed true, what example of his work was provided that persuaded the board to accept his bid so enthusiastically? Are we putting all our eggs in the basket of a new start-up?

As I understand it, Rich Givens has decades of experience in both the publishing business and the sport of disc golf. I think that calling into public question his qualifications, and the evaluation process of the BoD on the magazine bids, is about as disrespectful as it gets. :(

I didn't detect any disrespect in Fossil's questions, Jeff. I think he is asking very legitimate questions, and they're coming from someone who has been around this sport for quite some time. I would like to know those answers myself, as I'm sure many others would also. Being from PA, you probably know Rich (or at least have some knowledge of him through mutual friends), many of us don't.

At first I wondered if he was related to (or even is) the Freestyle legend "Skippy Jammer" (AKA Kevin Givens), who has enlightened many of us in the Freestyle world with his insightful articles in the FPA newsletters.

You can see Rich in the DGA ad on the inside back cover of the previous DGW. He's also published several course feature pocket books with pictures, diagrams and hole descriptions of well known courses.

Does that mean he is affiliated with DGA?

(**I haven't opened my copy of the latest mag yet, I'm still not sure if I want to leave it as is and put it with other collectables I've gathered over the years. I'll probably see if I can get Rick to send another before I decide whether or not to open this one**)

And just seeing him doesn't answer many questions. ;)

It was just an FYI that Rich was pictured for those who haven't seen him before. Put a face to the future mag editor. Not sure if he's sponsored in some way or was just a DGA ad model.

As I understand it, Rich Givens has decades of experience in both the publishing business and the sport of disc golf. I think that calling into public question his qualifications, and the evaluation process of the BoD on the magazine bids, is about as disrespectful as it gets. :(



I agree, Jeff, completely about Rich anyway. I don't know him, but he shouldn't have to take flak right up front. But you know, that's kinda routine and normal for this forum. It's what makes DISCussion such a valuable measure of the members' concerns and interests.

I did expect, given the alleged new transparency brought to PDGA governance by a couple of board members (currently in the second year of their terms) to learn a bit more about the selection process and the bids. Sometimes I can be naive.

i dont recall anyone asking about the process. if someone does ask, i'm sure there will be no problem with describing it.

i dont recall anyone asking about the process. if someone does ask, i'm sure there will be no problem with describing it.



That is SO strange, given that a moderator recently said: "calling into public question . . . evaluation process of the BoD on the magazine bids, is about as disrespectful as it gets."

I had a chance to talk to Rich on the phone for about 30 - 45 min. about the magazine.

I'm not going to go into much detail b/c nothing is final, but I think it is an improvement from DGW (not that I thought DGW was bad) and I REALLY like and agree with Rich's vision for the magazine.

i dont recall anyone asking about the process. if someone does ask, i'm sure there will be no problem with describing it.



Please do then, since apparently some people have a pressing need to understand it. Personally, I have faith that our elected BoD has the intelligence to carefully evaluate the magazine bids and decide on the best possible one. I guess I'm not like other disc golfers in that I don't need to micromanage everything, and don't automatically jump to conclusions that the BoD decided to put their eggs in the basket of a new start-up with no experience. http://www.bearclaws.org/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

As I understand it, Rich Givens has decades of experience in both the publishing business and the sport of disc golf. I think that calling into public question his qualifications, and the evaluation process of the BoD on the magazine bids, is about as disrespectful as it gets. :(



I am not sure how my asking a couple of questions means I have already jumped to some conclusion. I do not pretend to speak for others but my process is to ask questions and get answers before I jump, or crawl to any conclusion. I did what little research I could online about Mr. Givens before I posed any question. If I had not ask then I would not have been told �Rich Givens has decades of experience in both the publishing business and the sport of disc golf� even though no publishing examples were given.

And again, speaking just for myself if I had just gotten a major multi-year contract from our organization I would have probably started a thread thanking the PDGA for the opportunity to provide our communication tool, explained my vision for the magazine and introduced myself to the membership.

The magazine is the most important benefit for me for my membership dollars, which I explained in one of my other rare posts. Most of those who responded to my question post more in one day than I have in my lifetime, so to lump me in with those who seem to live here and give �flak right up front� may not be quite accurate. If you review my posts I bet 95% are promoting local PDGA events, 4% being a PDGA apologist/supporter and 1% �other� which this topic falls into.

I was assured in early August in a PM by a board member that (and I hope it is not in bad form) �there is a very likely probability that we'll end up with a great magazine that continues to meet the needs you describe. i understand your concern, and you are wise to have it.� � �i honestly believe we're gonna be ok on this�.

I really don�t think that asking about a process from an organization I have been a continuous member of for over 20 years �is about as disrespectful as it gets�.

However, that is as disrespectful as I get.

edited part is the following addition:
I wrote a letter to the PDGA Commissioner in my early days of running events asking about playing in an event I ran. He told me in an official communication that if I played then the other entrants may not get points or credit for the event. So I did not play. Later I found out that what he told me as fact was just a policy he thought should be enacted, and had nothing to do with instituted policy. Thus I do have some basis to be concerned about what I am told. This may be an isolated event, but is one reason I may show some concern. Direct communication from the top person which was absolutely false.

And he didn't even live in Washington DC. (My reference to miscommunication on many levels).

Did you ever consider sending an e-mail or PM to Mr. Givens and asking him about his background and experience before publicly assuming he has none?

I thought that an answer to my question would help others as well.
I'll be away from computer for the rest of the day so If I don't respond ....

Did you ever consider sending an e-mail or PM to Mr. Givens and asking him about his background and experience before publicly assuming he has none?


Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you? ALL HE DID WAS ASK A QUESTION!!!!!! He basically said, "this is what I've found about the guy, is there more to the story?" You know, there is middle ground between blind-unquestioning-unconditional-support and criticizing-conspiracy-theorist-micro-managing-terrorist-member. How come everytime an honestly-concerned member asks a question and even offers evidence for the basis of his/her question, they are attacked vigorously? You guys need to quit with this "you're either with us or against us" [censored]!

the process was pretty simple:

publish the RFP
get responses
evaluate the responses
dialog with the bidders to clear up any questions on either side
make decision

the Staff, BoD and Bidders interacted quite a bit, and very productively, throughout the process.

beyond what anyone thinks about the decision to go MagOptional, and beyond the discussion about how much the Mag option should cost, IMHO the RFP process was professional, maintained its integrity, and met its objective in fine form.

Did you ever consider sending an e-mail or PM to Mr. Givens and asking him about his background and experience before publicly assuming he has none?



We get current and up-to-date information from this website, which we as members pay to support, so it's not a stretch to assume this is where we can find out about current issues. If our PDGA dues are being used to subsidize (or help support) a new Disc Golf magazine, the editor should make every effort to let the membership know the answer to questions we have. This is a very good outlet to ask and answer those questions, because it can be done in almost "real time".

I've been playing this game a long, long time, and I've never heard of Rich Givens. I'm a big fan of DGW (been a subscriber since before the mag was part of our membership), and it has been really cool to see it come up from an idea in Rick's mind, put into print on paper, and then morph into the very slick professional periodical we have now. If we as a membership are going to have to accept a different magazine (which is OK by me since DGW is over as a mag), then we should be allowed to ask questions of the editor that arouse our curiosity.

I don't peruse every thread on this or other DG discussion boards so I don't know if Rich posts often. Is it possible to have Rich start a thread here about his plan for our magazine? After all, we are the PDGA.

the process was pretty simple:

publish the RFP
get responses
evaluate the responses
dialog with the bidders to clear up any questions on either side
make decision

the Staff, BoD and Bidders interacted quite a bit, and very productively, throughout the process.

beyond what anyone thinks about the decision to go MagOptional, and beyond the discussion about how much the Mag option should cost, IMHO the RFP process was professional, maintained its integrity, and met its objective in fine form.



Which is exactly how I expected it go. As our elected officers, I had complete faith in the BoD to carry out that process. But thanks, Pat, for explaining that to the conspiracy-theorist-micro-managing-members who needed to have that spelled out in explicit detail for them. :D

Yeah, what detail! Now we can nit-pick the process into oblivion!

I forgot.....
Faith=never question anything
Got it.

Research Chemist who never asks questions and believes in elected leaders on "faith". Never thought I'd hear "research", "never question", and "faith" in the same sentence.

I did have an opportunity to get back online for a few minutes, and my question was really not about process, though I certainly should be allowed to ask about that.

Since you are so familiar with him and his work, please tell me the name of one [some] of the magazines, newspapers etc. that he has been publishing for decades. I will go buy a copy in the next few days. I have not attacked Mr. Givens or his work, will not do that since I don't know him or could not find any of his work to study.

And a side comment on the Instant Graemlins. Isn't it nice that they provide a way for someone to call another person an ignorant-steaming-pile-of-bull-feces or conspiracy-theorist-micro-managing-member and put a little smiley face to say "I'm really a nice person and don't mean any harm" or whatever it is supposed to imply.
That being said I feel that there should be a place where members can say, insult or be as petty as they want with other members and the public would not see. If there were two parts of this Forum, one in which registered members could prove what a jerk they might be that was 100% uncensored (accessed by a paid members password) and a public area that is monitored by Moderators. Think how much time it would save the Moderators if they only had to monitor a public part of the board and let the password members battle it out as they see fit in a closed session. Kinda like the closed sessions the Board adjourns to from occasion to occasion.

So long for today.

The company's bio stated that the biggest ongoing project is a newstand magazine called Primal Parenting, which has a distribution of about 20,000. it also states that they have done about 90 mags in the last 6 years, with production runs ranging from 5,000 to 45,000 copies. members of the disc golf course design group and the course evaluation group might already know Rich.

to me, they seemed to have the technical and logistics side covered pretty well. both their proposal and the discussions during the process indicated (to me) that they had a workable plan for the all-important content part.

btw fossil, i hope you dont feel that i am eager to align myself with those who seek to diminish you for asking questions. no one needs permission to ask any question, and imo almost any question is legitimate. obviously this type of forum makes if rather easy to become a reactionary when someone poses a challenging or difficult question. thats part of its charm i guess :)

What Bio are you looking at? This (http://www.primalparentingmagazine.com/GPRelease.pdf) PR says the publishing company started in 2006 and Primal Parenting has still yet to release it's first issue?

the proposal had a bio in it

btw fossil, i hope you dont feel that i am eager to align myself with those who seek to diminish you for asking questions. no one needs permission to ask any question, and imo almost any question is legitimate. obviously this type of forum makes if rather easy to become a reactionary when someone poses a challenging or difficult question. thats part of its charm i guess :)



I don't seek to diminish people simply for asking questions, Pat. Maybe it's just me, but challenging both the ability of the BoD to properly evaluate magazine bids, and the background and experience of the publisher seems highly unusual to me. This is a professional organization and it doesn't take a huge amount of faith to assume that these kinds of things are handled properly. I don't believe in complete faith and never asking questions, but personally, this is about 1,000th on a list of things I would feel the need to know all the nitty gritty details about. If PDGA members can't have a little trust in our leaders in something like this, then I wonder what they think about the really really important decisions? :confused:

Jeff,

While in principal I agree with you, a trend has been set that it is not only O.K., but desired for the membership to doubt the Board's ability to carry out it's tasks. Again, while I believe that micromanaging the Board is bad form, I would not have it such that those who set us down this pathway were somehow exempt when their turn came up.

BTW - I would think that in the newer openerer... er PDGA, that the submitted bids would, as a matter of course, been placed in a publicly accessible location. Perhaps even someplace where the membership could comment on them and have some input?

BTW - for those howling about the process, I believe that the RFP process and rules were placed here i.e. made publicly available. Don't gripe if you don't take the time.

The initial question was regarding Givens background/experience (or lack thereof) in the publishing biz. It looked like a reasonable question, but then Jeffrey got his panties in a wad.

challenging both the ability of the BoD to properly evaluate magazine bids, and the background and experience of the publisher seems highly unusual to me.

hmmmm... even as a BoD member i feel encouraged and motivated when members DO challenge our ability. but then again, fielding questions from involved members does not typically threaten me. Members asking questions helps us stay diligent and strengthens us. questioning the background and experience of the bidders was a huge part of the RFP process. i see absolutely no reason that a member should not ask the same questions the BoD asked. in fact, i think its great that we have members who are looking that closely.

challenging both the ability of the BoD to properly evaluate magazine bids, and the background and experience of the publisher seems highly unusual to me.

hmmmm... even as a BoD member i feel encouraged and motivated when members DO challenge our ability. but then again, fielding questions from involved members does not typically threaten me. Members asking questions helps us stay diligent and strengthens us. questioning the background and experience of the bidders was a huge part of the RFP process. i see absolutely no reason that a member should not ask the same questions the BoD asked. in fact, i think its great that we have members who are looking that closely.



Excellent, I presume this means we're going to get copies of the bids as they came in and minutes from the committee that discussed and ultimately decided on who would be granted the contract?

BTW - I agree with the concerns expressed here about the new publisher, experience aside. I'd like to see the financial data, both as presented by the publisher, and those put together on our side that give us confidence that the bidder has submitted a workable bid wherein they can deliver a product and still make money - presumably at a cheaper cost than we had with DGWN.

i suggest you call or email the office with that request. alternatively, you can call ro email a BoD member. i am struggling with you saying in one post you trust your BoD, then in another post asking to see the numbers so you can make sure we did OK.

for the record, i would have no problem making that info available, except that most bids contain proprietary information that bidders typically do not want in the public domain. this info could be cost structures, strategies, techniques, a whole host of valuable intellectual property types. it would be highly unusual for a company to make this kind of information available and i would not feel comfortable releasing it unless bidders knew and agreed going in to the process that their RFP would be released.

asking for details of the process and asking for copies of the bids are two very different requests.

i suggest you call or email the office with that request. alternatively, you can call ro email a BoD member. i am struggling with you saying in one post you trust your BoD, then in another post asking to see the numbers so you can make sure we did OK.

<font color="red">I can see why you're confused. You might go back and read my post again, Oh never mind, I'll repeat. What I said is that, in general, I'm against micromanaging the Board, and I'll add that we should let them do their jobs. What I qualified that with is that in this case I'm willing to make an exception, since the tone set by some is that we should watch over the Board's shoulders, I feel they should be held to the same standard. </font>



for the record, i would have no problem making that info available, except that most bids contain proprietary information that bidders typically do not want in the public domain. this info could be cost structures, strategies, techniques, a whole host of valuable intellectual property types. it would be highly unusual for a company to make this kind of information available and i would not feel comfortable releasing it unless bidders knew and agreed going in to the process that their RFP would be released.

<font color="red">And here I assumed you were a Board member, silly me. Let's assume for a moment that you are. Hey Pat, do you know whether or not the PDGA signed a non-disclosure agreement with those who submitted bids to produce our magazines, one that specifically stated that the Board could review those bids, but that the membership of the organization would be excluded? BTW - while you're at it, could you make copies of those non-disclosure agreements available? Given that we, that is the members, are being asked to live by them, I'd think we should be able to at least see them to know how much of our rights have been... frittered away. [token smiley face to show that I'm not really a bad guy]</font>

asking for details of the process and asking for copies of the bids are two very different requests.

honestly i have no idea if we "signed a non-disclosure agreement with those who submitted bids" or not.

the RFP says :
The PDGA reserves the right to:
� Reject any/or all proposals and to waive any and/or all technicalities and informalities
received in response to this RFP.
� Utilize any and all ideas submitted in the proposals received unless those ideas are
protected by copyright, legal patent or proprietary rights as stated by the proposer.

All this wanting to see the proposals and stuff is only indicative of one thing:

The people that are demanding this have never been involved with a bidding process on either end. No publishing house is going to submit a bid if their entire cost structure is laid bare to the public.

It is amazing how much second guessing people go through on these boards.

Its like the cost of ratings and the like...

Find a software consultant and tell him you want to hire him for 2 days worth of work, 5 times per year. Odds are the price you'll get back is on the order of $800-1000/day. That will cost you $8-10k/year.

And half the people will scream... But he only would make $30/hour at a regular job... To which he will say that if you want to pay him $60k + benefits, he'll be happy to work for you for a year.

So asking to see the proposal should be answered: no

Asking if this guy is going to run the magazine, what kind of magazines has he published in the past, either with his current company or who he worked for before? That's a good question. And one that isn't "as low as it gets"

So here's my question (and I think its a fair one): What can the board, who selected this publisher, tell me about his background and knowledge that will make me have a feeling that he knows what he is doing?

All I'm asking for is the $10 explanation.

I didn't renew my $9.95 a year Car and Driver subscription because I could read the articles online within a few days anyway. Therefore, the only downside is I didn't have a portable version I could take into the smaller rooms in my house.

I'll probably opt for the magazine for the first year, but try and sell me anyway...

thank you brian.

"Asking if this guy is going to run the magazine, what kind of magazines has he published in the past, either with his current company or who he worked for before? That's a good question."

agreed. getting a comfort level established will benefit everyone. a more complete introduction seems in order. after the award of a bid there is a period while the formalities are worked out. we're in that period now. i'm not a direct part of it, but i'll make sure both the association and 4141 hear that everyone is eager to meet the new folks entrusted with the magazine.

All this wanting to see the proposals and stuff is only indicative of one thing:

The people that are demanding this have never been involved with a bidding process on either end. No publishing house is going to submit a bid if their entire cost structure is laid bare to the public.

It is amazing how much second guessing people go through on these boards.

Its like the cost of ratings and the like...

Find a software consultant and tell him you want to hire him for 2 days worth of work, 5 times per year. Odds are the price you'll get back is on the order of $800-1000/day. That will cost you $8-10k/year.

And half the people will scream... But he only would make $30/hour at a regular job... To which he will say that if you want to pay him $60k + benefits, he'll be happy to work for you for a year.

So asking to see the proposal should be answered: no

Asking if this guy is going to run the magazine, what kind of magazines has he published in the past, either with his current company or who he worked for before? That's a good question. And one that isn't "as low as it gets"

So here's my question (and I think its a fair one): What can the board, who selected this publisher, tell me about his background and knowledge that will make me have a feeling that he knows what he is doing?

All I'm asking for is the $10 explanation.

I didn't renew my $9.95 a year Car and Driver subscription because I could read the articles online within a few days anyway. Therefore, the only downside is I didn't have a portable version I could take into the smaller rooms in my house.

I'll probably opt for the magazine for the first year, but try and sell me anyway...



YAWN!

First, I see many contracts and few of them have non-disclosure agreements. Most of the non-disclosure agreements I see are internal. Second, at this level I doubt that any of the proposals included a non-disclosure agreement. Do you really think that is what I'm pursuing here? Third, you'll note that while Pat's original commentary really played up the non-disclosure agreement, in his follow up he backed away from it. I repeat my original request. I'd like to either see the RFP's or the non-disclosure agreement limiting my access to that information. This is a position taken by Pat in the past, that this information should be open. Are you now backing away from that Pat?

The problem here is two-fold. First - we have some people who have pushed a certain agenda but aren't willing to live up to that agenda themselves. Second - like it or not, those arguing that they should be given a clear picture of the financial use of their money have the right to make that request. There is a $5 discrepancy per membership if you don't get the magazine. This isn't car and driver, it's a member owned organization.

I think Pat has stated before that small "inconsistancies" shall we say, are problematic. They can be indicative of larger problems, and therefore we should be open. So Pat, have you changed your position on this or do you agree that those asking should be given a clear description of the cost difference?

Pat's original commentary really played up the non-disclosure agreement

i said i didnt even know if there was an NDA. that doesnt count as playing it up, does it?

nor did i ever say that copies of RFPs should be made available for everyone to see. no, i havent changed my mind about disclosure. i do agree "that those asking should be given a clear description of the cost difference". i'm hardly the only voice in the discussion tho.

thank you brian.

"Asking if this guy is going to run the magazine, what kind of magazines has he published in the past, either with his current company or who he worked for before? That's a good question."

agreed. getting a comfort level established will benefit everyone. a more complete introduction seems in order. after the award of a bid there is a period while the formalities are worked out. we're in that period now. i'm not a direct part of it, but i'll make sure both the association and 4141 hear that everyone is eager to meet the new folks entrusted with the magazine.



Pat
I've ask twice for Jeff to please let me know at least one of the projects Mr. Givens has completed after the decades Jeff says that Mr. Givens has been publishing. If available will you please post that information for me and other interested members?

From the RFP Section IV, Paragraph 3, a. &amp; d. (Project Name and Year project was completed) was a required submission. I don't think this is really proprietary . I'm not asking for any financial information. Just one example of his <u>completed</u> work after decades in the business.

I�m not trying to embarrass anyone and will likely not post about this again. My questions were posted about midnight on Saturday and I ask this one last time to please provide that little bit of information.
Thank you.

Original Question:
Is it true that the only experience that Rich Givens has in publishing is Primal Parenting which has not even released its first issue?
If that is indeed true, what example of his work was provided that persuaded the board to accept his bid so enthusiastically? Are we putting all our eggs in the basket of a new start-up?

Thanks again to everyone who tries to make this a better organization, including Jeff. But if we can�t get even a modicum of information, then I don�t think he really wants a response to :
�If PDGA members can't have a little trust in our leaders in something like this, then I wonder what they think about the really really important decisions? �

John,

I don't have the answers to your questions. If this information is so urgent, I again recommend that you contact Mr. Givens yourself. Here's a link to his profile where you can send him either a PM or an e-mail:

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showprofile.php?Cat=0&amp;User=6904&amp;page=6&amp;what=showme mbers

Is it true that the only experience that Rich Givens has in publishing is Primal Parenting which has not even released its first issue?


not true, no.

we talked about this last night at the BoD meeting and we're gonna try to broaden the communication channels and get additional materials/info out.

Pat
Thanks for following this up.

Jeff.
I just wanted you to support your multi decade publishing claim from your first response.

Seriously thanks to you both. I was on the Pro Tour Committee back before computers were part of the general process and nominated a few years back for the Disciplinary Committee, in retrospect glad I was not chosen.
Again, thanks to you both for serving in the thankless jobs you have been elected to fill.
jw

I just wanted you to support your multi decade publishing claim from your first response.



John, that was my understanding. I've only met Rich once. Again, wouldn't it be a lot easier if you just contacted Rich yourself to get the best possible answer?

Possibly, but then the information would not be available to all members like it is here.

Dear PDGA Members,

Rich Givens and 4141 Disc Golf is in the process of creating an informational site on the internet for the new magazine. Check the front page of PDGA.com next week for an introduction of Rich and some information on the new magazine.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

So Disc Golf World will disappear as the PDGA magazine and be replaced by a new magazine.

Wow was my first reaction. Disc Golf World was pretty good but a disc golf magazine can of course be better.

I was very surprised when I saw the presentation of the new magazine.

The name: Flying Disc Magazine. A name taken from a magazine about 30 years ago when disc golf barely existed and when the frisbee flew was big. I thougt this would be a modern disc golf magazine, especially now when the disc golf sport is close to be an accepted sport among the public and media.

At the webiste for the magazine you can see that disc golf is just a part of the magazine but the purpose of the magazine is to inform about all disc sports like Guts and frisbee dogs.
Well I should probably be happy the name of the magazine wasn�t Frisbee World (also a magazine in the late 70�s)

Is not disc golf big enough for its own magazine?
Should not the PDGA members have a disc golf magazine?

I have worked many years with trying to develop the sport of disc golf, but many times even by hardcore discgolfers, there are not enough focus, and I am afraid this has happened again.

I am disappointed how this chance of strengthen the disc golf image seems to be lost.

Can somebody from PDGA try to explain, or even better, keep Disc Golf World.

/Jonas L�f
PDGA 3416

Rich presented some good reasoning regarding the name. to his credit, he anticipated this question and thought it thru before he proposed the name. remember, the overwhelming majority of hte content will be disc golf - at least as much as in the current mag. the cross-over potential is legitimate also. in some ways ultimate is far more organized than discgolf is, and has a rich history and ongoing activity.

for me, the benefits of speaking at least a little bity to our related sports makes sense. think of it as the typical feature articles in many mags - not exactly on direct target, but related enough to add some value.

the Board discussed the name at length, and expressed the same range of feelings about the name that have been expressed by the players. in the end, the consensus was that Rich and his team had thought through the various angles and pros/cons sufficiently and that we would go ahead with his recommendation.

besides, have you ever triesd to name a band? only 4 or 5 members and it can take months. your concerns are valid, and they are heard. for now, we are going with Rich's guidance based on his vision and experience. i am very optimistic that this will be the ONLY issue that ever comes up regarding the new mag :)

Ultimate, Yawn, Dog Golf, Yawn.

If I want to read about Ultimate, I'll go get their magazine, same for Dog Golf (do dogs read?).

It's too bad the first copy isn't coming out before renewal, then we could decide if it (sorry) bites before committing for a year.

so skip those pages. there still be as much dg as before, if not more.

yes, it would be nice to see it before committing. how to do that was the tough part though, given the situation. publisher, player and pdga alike all have some skin in the game. the player has $10, and its optional. ten bux to take a chance on the next dg mag and support its efforts to become the next GREAT dg mag seems like an attractive risk-reward proposition.

The magazine is going to be awesome!!! I know Rich very well and he has a company that does magazines already. he has ins on getting it in newstands across the country, great people across the country who will be contributing reguarly. It will be 6 issues a year!!! It will be excellent. Why would you not pay $10 to support disc golf?? We are testing 10 models of discs next week for the first issue. I think you guys will be blown away. And why not have other disc sports featured??? Do you really want to read "winning disc golf" for the 10th time in 4 issues???

I think any PDGA member who does not support this kind of magazine is not supporting the PDGA. Just my 2 cents. Anyway, can't wait to start testing discs next weekend for the first issue.

I think any PDGA member who does not support this kind of magazine is not supporting the PDGA.


Of course. That is the only logical conclusion.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but when I signed up for the PDGA in 97, I always looked forward to getting the magazine in the mail every couple of months. It was always filled with cool new stuff that you couldn't find out about anywhere else. It was the goto spot to find where the tournaments were at, what new discs were out, who was winning, etc.

Now many years later we do have the internet, which is the easiest way to find out about all this stuff, yet there are still people who do not use the internet. I still always look forward to getting the magazine even now.

What I don't understand is how people can criticize the content of a magazine that still even hasn't been produced??? How do you know that you might not like reading a disc dog article or an MTA article??? Maybe it just might inspire you to get your head out of your [censored] and try a new sport. How can you criticize the man who won the bid for the magazine if you have never met him or read his articles yet?? How can you be so judgemental on something that is not even in your hands yet?? And really.............what is $15??? Come on people!!

Disc Golf World has been a great publication for quite some time, it has expanded and changed with the times. It kept getting better and better with the layout, pictures, articles, etc. So why would this magazine be any different?? Especially coming from such a qualified person to make the magazine.

$15....cost of 1 disc. Even if you don't like the magazine, think of how many of your disc golf buddies could at least thumb through the issue. How many people you could show disc golf by just handing them the magazine. Heck, if you don't like the magazine, you could take it to your dentist and leave it at their office for new people to discover the sport. I know that all of my roomates read through my new issue every time it comes out.

Think about it, Do you want to help grow the sport of disc golf or not?? Do you want to make it accessible to people who may have never seen PDGA.com or any other disc golf website? How many times has your club used the magazine to show the parks what disc golf is about and help get new courses installed?

The magazine is essential for any sport. It is a great way to showcase what we have accomplished in the last 30 years. Is $15 really that much to pay for something that might impact a few new golfers?

Think about it. And if you don't end up liking the magazine or even reading it, then pass it on to someone who might, or better yet sell them 10 years down the road when they are collectors issues.

I would hope that all PDGA members will pony up the $15 just to say "I love disc golf and I think this is the best sport ever"

And for those who need to know more about Rich and his experience check out

http://www.4141discgolf.com/aboutus.html

and check out www.4141discgolf.com (http://www.4141discgolf.com) to check out his website.

and http://www.flyingdiscmagazine.com/ to see the website for the magazine. If any of you have seen his bagbooks, you know that he is going to do a great job with this magazine.

I have yet to criticize the "new" magazine. I have criticized people that claim that if you don't get the magazine, you aren't supporting the sport/PDGA.
If fact, to prove that one can support the sport without getting the magazine, I will take my $50 that I am not going to spend on renewing and give it to the Disc Golf Scholarship that Shane Seal has set up in Poplarville, MS. Not only will that money directly go to a disc golf scholarship, but it will turn into, possibly, $100 through the sale of fundraiser discs at a fundraiser tournament. And, if the scholarship is set up in a "trust" fund, then that $50 will double, triple, even quadruple, in a matter of years, giving more disc golfers college scholarships. Tell me that doesn't "grow" the sport more than giving $50 to the PDGA which goes toward processing, paying a "consultant", regionally biased benefits, and a magazine company.

I think any PDGA member who does not support this kind of magazine is not supporting the PDGA.


Of course. That is the only logical conclusion.



Sandlebagger, your comment is too funny! You meant that right?

I'm not saying that supporting the mag is the only way to support the PDGA. More like, why wouldn't you want to spend $10-$15 on a new outlook on the sport?

I would like to see the price of the mag as part of the PDGA fees as before, but alas that is not happening. I think that the PDGA should not have done the opt out and just made it part of the fees as it always has been.

And if Rick Rothstein reads this crap.....YOU HAVE DONE AN AMAZING JOB OVER THE YEARS AND I AM GRATEFUL FOR ALL OF THE HARD WORK THAT YOU HAVE PUT INTO DISC GOLF WORLD. I was always jealous when my friends issues showed up before mine!

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but when I signed up for the PDGA in 97, I always looked forward to getting the magazine in the mail every couple of months. It was always filled with cool new stuff that you couldn't find out about anywhere else. It was the goto spot to find where the tournaments were at, what new discs were out, who was winning, etc.

Now many years later we do have the internet, which is the easiest way to find out about all this stuff, yet there are still people who do not use the internet. I still always look forward to getting the magazine even now.

What I don't understand is how people can criticize the content of a magazine that still even hasn't been produced??? How do you know that you might not like reading a disc dog article or an MTA article??? Maybe it just might inspire you to get your head out of your [censored] and try a new sport. How can you criticize the man who won the bid for the magazine if you have never met him or read his articles yet?? How can you be so judgemental on something that is not even in your hands yet?? And really.............what is $15??? Come on people!!

Disc Golf World has been a great publication for quite some time, it has expanded and changed with the times. It kept getting better and better with the layout, pictures, articles, etc. So why would this magazine be any different?? Especially coming from such a qualified person to make the magazine.

$15....cost of 1 disc. Even if you don't like the magazine, think of how many of your disc golf buddies could at least thumb through the issue. How many people you could show disc golf by just handing them the magazine. Heck, if you don't like the magazine, you could take it to your dentist and leave it at their office for new people to discover the sport. I know that all of my roomates read through my new issue every time it comes out.

Think about it, Do you want to help grow the sport of disc golf or not?? Do you want to make it accessible to people who may have never seen PDGA.com or any other disc golf website? How many times has your club used the magazine to show the parks what disc golf is about and help get new courses installed?

The magazine is essential for any sport. It is a great way to showcase what we have accomplished in the last 30 years. Is $15 really that much to pay for something that might impact a few new golfers?

Think about it. And if you don't end up liking the magazine or even reading it, then pass it on to someone who might, or better yet sell them 10 years down the road when they are collectors issues.

I would hope that all PDGA members will pony up the $15 just to say "I love disc golf and I think this is the best sport ever"



Everything you're saying here has been said before, only about DGWN. And yet they got shot in the donkey. Where was your unflagging support while that was going on?

My criticism is three fold:

1) How much did politics drive this process?

2) How carefully did those who wanted this change study what was going on, what the cost structure really meant, and whether or not FDS or whatever the new name is could deliver? If you're going to play at business, then you should deliver the goods...

3) Did anyone consider the expertise that we were losing when we essentially gave Rick R. the boot? Yes, I know he said it was time but the writing was on the wall.


There are so many entertainment venues out there today I can't spit without hitting one. I am sure there are much more informed sites and mags for info on Dog Discs and Ultimate than we are going to get here. The days of integrated disc sports are over. Combining Dog Discs with Ultimate and Disc Golf is like combining football with baseball, hey, they both use balls, right? Don't get me wrong, Sports Illustrated covers the whole shebang, but Baseball weekly does not.

I wonder if the Ultimate magazine covers disc golf?

I wonder if the Ultimate magazine covers disc golf?



Good point! I guess if I want to know what's going on in DG I should go there?

I think you have to consider that the PDGA didn't create this magazine, it asked for outside entities to bid. The Board felt this was the best of the two bidders. It's not like there was stiff competition to do what the PDGA wanted. If having other stuff in the magazine is part of the deal, so be it. It sounds like the reason for being more inclusive for disc sports is a better chance of getting on the newstand which I believe has yet to happen for any disc publication (correct me if I'm wrong on this). Getting the magazine on the newstands and attracting those who are involved in related disc activities are both to our advantage in the long run. The PDGA will be getting what it contracted for for its members in terms of pages and content. Everything else is gravy.

BTW - If someone really wants a Disc Sports Mag, there is probably a place for it. A lot of old time local players play Guts etc. here in Houston. But, as the premier organization promoting Disc Golf, the magazine we back should be about Disc Golf. More doesn't mean better.

Everything you're saying here has been said before, only about DGWN. And yet they got shot in the donkey. Where was your unflagging support while that was going on?

My criticism is three fold:

1) How much did politics drive this process?

2) How carefully did those who wanted this change study what was going on, what the cost structure really meant, and whether or not FDS or whatever the new name is could deliver? If you're going to play at business, then you should deliver the goods...

3) Did anyone consider the expertise that we were losing when we essentially gave Rick R. the boot? Yes, I know he said it was time but the writing was on the wall.




1. To the best of my knowledge, politics played no role in the decision. It is good business practice to put out an RFP from time to time to ensure that we are getting the best value for our members. You can expect to see more RFP's in the future as we continue to seek out improved quality and better value for the association.

2. Very carefully.

3. Yes, we considered very carefully the expertise that would potentially be lost. Please remember that Rick could have very easily submitted a bid to continue DGW but he made the decision not to. In fact, I encouraged Rick on more than one occassion to submit a bid but he said that he was ready for a break. How is this shooting DGW in the donkey, or giving Rick the boot?

I personally am not in favor of the magazine opt-out but that was a decision that the majority of the current BOD and I inherited. That being said, I am very encouraged by everything that I have seen in the proposal and in my dealings with Rich. I am confident that we will continue to offer a high quality publication at a good value to our members.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

And yet they got shot in the donkey. Where was your unflagging support while that was going on?

Lyle, you might be mistaken or misinformed. DGW did not get "shot in the donkey". they were thinking of not continuing already. they had every chance to bid. there was nothing "going on". the idea that the association "did this" to DGW has no substance.

My bad. I thought this was the Professional Disc Golf Association. It's not like Golf Digest Covers Putt-Putt, Disc Golf, or Golf Juggling.
Point 1: If there is not enough "stuff" in disc golf worth covering, or writing about, then we don't "need" a magazine.
Point 2: If I am paying for a Disc Golf Magazine through the Professional Disc Golf Association, I **** sure better see nothing but disc golf, whether it be kids, women, men, pro, am, whatever, but it better be for disc golf, about disc golf, and about disc golfers.

It is good business practice to put out an RFP from time to time to ensure that we are getting the best value for our members. You can expect to see more RFP's in the future as we continue to seek out improved quality and better value for the association.


RATINGS? &lt;&lt;YAY!&gt;&gt;

I think you have to consider that the PDGA didn't create this magazine, it asked for outside entities to bid. The Board felt this was the best of the two bidders. It's not like there was stiff competition to do what the PDGA wanted. If having other stuff in the magazine is part of the deal, so be it. It sounds like the reason for being more inclusive for disc sports is a better chance of getting on the newstand which I believe has yet to happen for any disc publication (correct me if I'm wrong on this). Getting the magazine on the newstands and attracting those who are involved in related disc activities are both to our advantage in the long run. The PDGA will be getting what it contracted for for its members in terms of pages and content. Everything else is gravy.



Really?

Want to bet all the loose change in my pocket on newsstand presence? It might show up there, but I'd be very pleasantly surprised.

Now, let's be frank; who, in the mag distribution world, that is looking for a "Disc Sports" magazine that will have "semi wide" readership due to the breadth of disc players out there, is going to buy that a disc golf magazine with a "couple" of articles about Dogs and Ultimate is going to do the job?

It might be that our publisher is powerful in the mag dist. world and can push this out there. If so, I'll be looking in my local CVS?

Wow! two whole bids to get... what we already had?

Still waiting to see what we've gotten...........

believe me I wish DGWN was still going to be doing the mag, and I hope that Rick will still be involved with the new magazine in some way.

and as far as having some ultimate and dog stuff in there, it's not like it's gonna be 50/50 split. This will still be a disc golf magazine.

I think it's gonna be a great magazine. Rich is good at what he does and he is going to deliver a great magazine with a great layout and good content. He has a great support of people who are going to be regular contributors to the magazine, many of which were part of DGW.

This Sunday we are doing the disc test which is going to be pretty intense and critical. There will be 8 people, testing out 14 different discs throwing for a total of 200+ throws for each person. I think this will be the most in depth testing ever done for a magazine. And he has even managed to get Quaker Steak and Lube to sponsor the testing with free lunch for all particpants. He has good people skills and knows how to make things happen. Just go and play the Pymatuning State Park par 66 course he designed and you will see that he knows what disc golf is all about. He singlehandedly raised the money, built the course, and designed the whole thing, and it is AWESOME!! If the magazine is half as good as the course, it's going to be phenomenal.

All I know is that Rich is a very driven person. He has a great history in the sport, he was friends with Steady Ed, and I believe he used to work for ED?? He has designed some great courses, he has put out very nice bagbooks already, and he already has the beginnings of what looks to be a very nice website. If you have ever met the guy, you know that he is going to do everything he can to make this a great magazine. He has some great ideas from what I have heard already, and I think he is going to work hard to make every issue unique and full of useful content.

And yet they got shot in the donkey. Where was your unflagging support while that was going on?

Lyle, you might be mistaken or misinformed. DGW did not get "shot in the donkey". they were thinking of not continuing already. they had every chance to bid. there was nothing "going on". the idea that the association "did this" to DGW has no substance.



Oh, you're so right, I was mistaken. Thanks for setting me straight.

We are distributed to Professional Disc Golf Association (PDGA) members, select college campuses and libraries in the continental U.S., and park and recreation administrators and staff. Our January/February 2008 issue will also be available at over 40 newsstands, with a broader release part of our 2008 plan.

that is straight from the magazines website.

Point 1: If there is not enough "stuff" in disc golf worth covering, or writing about, then we don't "need" a magazine.

Been there, done that in B&amp;W in house until color DGW. An organization needs to communicate with its members in some manner. You'll pay for it one way or another. Getting full color and wider circulation is win-win with both communication to members and promotion to the outside community. Looks like good leadership.

Point 2: If I am paying for a Disc Golf Magazine through the Professional Disc Golf Association, I **** sure better see nothing but disc golf, whether it be kids, women, men, pro, am, whatever, but it better be for disc golf, about disc golf, and about disc golfers.

Looks like wishful thinking. That's where our sport is today. Still a niche or there would be magazines strictly about disc golf on the stands already if we were big enough.

believe me I wish DGWN was still going to be doing the mag, and I hope that Rick will still be involved with the new magazine in some way.

and as far as having some ultimate and dog stuff in there, it's not like it's gonna be 50/50 split. This will still be a disc golf magazine.

I think it's gonna be a great magazine. Rich is good at what he does and he is going to deliver a great magazine with a great layout and good content. He has a great support of people who are going to be regular contributors to the magazine, many of which were part of DGW.

This Sunday we are doing the disc test which is going to be pretty intense and critical. There will be 8 people, testing out 14 different discs throwing for a total of 200+ throws for each person. I think this will be the most in depth testing ever done for a magazine. And he has even managed to get Quaker Steak and Lube to sponsor the testing with free lunch for all particpants. He has good people skills and knows how to make things happen. Just go and play the Pymatuning State Park par 66 course he designed and you will see that he knows what disc golf is all about. He singlehandedly raised the money, built the course, and designed the whole thing, and it is AWESOME!! If the magazine is half as good as the course, it's going to be phenomenal.

All I know is that Rich is a very driven person. He has a great history in the sport, he was friends with Steady Ed, and I believe he used to work for ED?? He has designed some great courses, he has put out very nice bagbooks already, and he already has the beginnings of what looks to be a very nice website. If you have ever met the guy, you know that he is going to do everything he can to make this a great magazine. He has some great ideas from what I have heard already, and I think he is going to work hard to make every issue unique and full of useful content.



I'm just dying to see this comparison of 14 discs. It should have a huge impact on how well we're informed about the discs out there and how they perform for different players under different conditions! I bet every non-sponsored Pro out there immediately changes out every disc in their bag after reading it!

I wonder how it would go if you got 20 rookies and did the same test? I wonder if the information might be useful to newbies?

We are distributed to Professional Disc Golf Association (PDGA) members, select college campuses and libraries in the continental U.S., and park and recreation administrators and staff. Our January/February 2008 issue will also be available at over 40 newsstands, with a broader release part of our 2008 plan.

that is straight from the magazines website.


\
Ahhh Yes! Please come talk to me six months after the first edition. Again, I'll be very pleasantly surprised if it's still there.

BTW - I do look forward to seeing guys reading it on the Metro, should be a point of conversation.

believe me I wish DGWN was still going to be doing the mag, and I hope that Rick will still be involved with the new magazine in some way.

and as far as having some ultimate and dog stuff in there, it's not like it's gonna be 50/50 split. This will still be a disc golf magazine.

I think it's gonna be a great magazine. Rich is good at what he does and he is going to deliver a great magazine with a great layout and good content. He has a great support of people who are going to be regular contributors to the magazine, many of which were part of DGW.

This Sunday we are doing the disc test which is going to be pretty intense and critical. There will be 8 people, testing out 14 different discs throwing for a total of 200+ throws for each person. I think this will be the most in depth testing ever done for a magazine. And he has even managed to get Quaker Steak and Lube to sponsor the testing with free lunch for all particpants. He has good people skills and knows how to make things happen. Just go and play the Pymatuning State Park par 66 course he designed and you will see that he knows what disc golf is all about. He singlehandedly raised the money, built the course, and designed the whole thing, and it is AWESOME!! If the magazine is half as good as the course, it's going to be phenomenal.

All I know is that Rich is a very driven person. He has a great history in the sport, he was friends with Steady Ed, and I believe he used to work for ED?? He has designed some great courses, he has put out very nice bagbooks already, and he already has the beginnings of what looks to be a very nice website. If you have ever met the guy, you know that he is going to do everything he can to make this a great magazine. He has some great ideas from what I have heard already, and I think he is going to work hard to make every issue unique and full of useful content.



I'm just dying to see this comparison of 14 discs. It should have a huge impact on how well we're informed about the discs out there and how they perform for different players under different conditions! I bet every non-sponsored Pro out there immediately changes out every disc in their bag after reading it!

I wonder how it would go if you got 20 rookies and did the same test? I wonder if the information might be useful to newbies?



Give him a break, how can you criticize a 10 dollar a year magazine when you haven't even seen it! All yall need to lay off for a while

Looks like wishful thinking. That's where our sport is today. Still a niche or there would be magazines strictly about disc golf on the stands already if we were big enough.


No, that's a cop-out. The magazine is being paid for by the membership. So, member of the PDGA either play, watch, or at least care about disc golf in some way. There is no evidence to say that they care about anything else but disc golf. So anything else that is covered is to the satisfaction of the publisher for their motives. This is FOR THE MEMBERSHIP, so it should be made FOR THE MEMBERSHIP. Not to hit newstands or reach out to other sports.

The Board felt this was the best of the two bidders.



how do you know it was two bidders? are you sure about that?

That's what Chuckles said a few posts up. (#755667)

Well the field test of discs is comprised of 8 players. 3 or 4 average players with distances of under 300 feet. 3 players with distance between 300 - 400 and 2 players who can throw 400+. There will also be a sidearm test of the discs by a mainly sidearm thrower.

Here are the words from Rich himself.....

We will be throwing 15 throws of each model including a baseline disc which is the disc that you typically use. Bring your regular driver. If you have multiples of the same disc (same mold, same plastic, similar or same weight) bring them, it'll be helpful! There will be players of varying skill participating and the key is to determine a relative distance for each player and how a disc would perform in the hands of players with different arm speeds. We'll track several measurements. Each of your will throw AND assist in the evaluation process (watching lines, recording data, marking throws).

After the initial evaluation, there will be a feel test where participants will again throw the disc to a "spot" and evaluate the perceived control and ease to reach. This will be a less involved test (fewer throws, less to measure). Each of you will be recording some subjective thoughts about each disc, too. We'll prompt you for the things we need, then allow you to add to it.


NOt saying it will make people buy the discs, but I think it will be a great way for people to get a good idea of what discs are better for certain types of players. I think it will be very insightful for newer players.

Not sure. Just knew the two and not DGW. Do you wish to refute that number to undermine my point about bidders not falling all over themselves to do the PDGA's bidding?

and this is not MY magazine. But I am very excited to be helping out with it anyway that I can. If you guys have stuff that you would like to see in the magazine, or would like to contribute, why don't you get in touch with Rich, I am sure that he would love your input. The more people across the country who can submit articles about what is happening in their neck of the woods, the better for all of us as a whole.

Pat,

Aren't you on the BOD? If so, you should know how many bids were submitted. Are you questioning the number of bids, or are you questioning where the reference to two bids originated?

yeah, i was asking chuck...

Only two were discussed at the summit according to the minutes. It doesn't say whether or not others existed prior to that point.

bill, yes i am on the board, and yes i know how many bids were submitted. no, i cant confirm or deny any number. BoD members are not allowed to reveal such details.

What makes you think this is about the magazine? Or $10 for that matter?

Well the field test of discs is comprised of 8 players. 3 or 4 average players with distances of under 300 feet. 3 players with distance between 300 - 400 and 2 players who can throw 400+. There will also be a sidearm test of the discs by a mainly sidearm thrower.

Here are the words from Rich himself.....

We will be throwing 15 throws of each model including a baseline disc which is the disc that you typically use. Bring your regular driver. If you have multiples of the same disc (same mold, same plastic, similar or same weight) bring them, it'll be helpful! There will be players of varying skill participating and the key is to determine a relative distance for each player and how a disc would perform in the hands of players with different arm speeds. We'll track several measurements. Each of your will throw AND assist in the evaluation process (watching lines, recording data, marking throws).

After the initial evaluation, there will be a feel test where participants will again throw the disc to a "spot" and evaluate the perceived control and ease to reach. This will be a less involved test (fewer throws, less to measure). Each of you will be recording some subjective thoughts about each disc, too. We'll prompt you for the things we need, then allow you to add to it.


NOt saying it will make people buy the discs, but I think it will be a great way for people to get a good idea of what discs are better for certain types of players. I think it will be very insightful for newer players.



I'm sorry, and what is it you, I mean Rich, thinks we're going to learn out of this?

bill, yes i am on the board, and yes i know how many bids were submitted. no, i cant confirm or deny any number. BoD members are not allowed to reveal such details.



LOL, so much for the newer more open PDGA.

I wish I could have been sitting in on this conversation.

"O.K., I want to make sure everyone signs the non-disclosure agreement that specifies you won't reveal how many magazine bids there were. Pat, did I get your copy?" Must have...

That's what Chuckles said a few posts up. (#755667)



Chuckles, I like that. Can you call me Lyles?

bill, yes i am on the board, and yes i know how many bids were submitted. no, i cant confirm or deny any number. BoD members are not allowed to reveal such details.



LOL, so much for the newer more open PDGA.

I wish I could have been sitting in on this conversation.

"O.K., I want to make sure everyone signs the non-disclosure agreement that specifies you won't reveal how many magazine bids there were. Pat, did I get your copy?" Must have...


hey Lyle, your reactions a year ago to some of my information-rich posts were used as some of the "reasoning" to ban BoD members from talking openly in the first place. ye reap what ye sow.

I'm glad you get the point Pat, or do you?

And who says decisions aren't made solely based on what happens on the Message Bored.

And who says decisions aren't made solely based on what happens on the Message Bored.



You mean people might use this message board to carry out an agenda and direct board decisions, possibly in a fashion that isn't in the best interests of the sport or organization? Nah!

I'm liking you more everyday, Lyle.

Hey, if Gore can win a Nobel Prize for spreading conjecture and propaganda, then we all have hope.

I'm liking you more everyday, Lyle.

Hey, if Gore can win a Nobel Prize for spreading conjecture and propaganda, then we all have hope.



Don't get too enamored, I still think Gore is God, Oh wait, I'm an atheist. Never mind.

Ron Paul 2008 "I take my marching orders from the Constitution."

bill, yes i am on the board, and yes i know how many bids were submitted. no, i cant confirm or deny any number. BoD members are not allowed to reveal such details.



Pat,

I understand that there are not some matters that merit discussion here, but I though that it only dealt with matters when the BOD went into executive session, not matters discussed during a general BOD meeting. I think that you were being a little over-secretive here. The number of responders to a RFP is hardly a confidential subject. I would hope to get a more responsive answer if I asked about how many bids have been submitted for a future WDGC.

Also, I don't lay the responsibility for this solely at your feet, but someone (the Secretary, the webmaster, etc) ought to notify you when minutes of a meeting are posted, so you can comment on an activity, such as a vote to pick, from 2, a new publisher.

http://www.pdga.com/documents/boardminutes/2007-09-21BODMeetingMinutesApproved.pdf

As an aside, were you late in teleconferencing to the meeting? I saw several motions that only had 6 votes, and your name was not on there, even as noting an abstention.

I'm not meaning to slam here, just trying to offer a little semi-constructive criticism, and not necessarily about just you.

bill, yes i am on the board, and yes i know how many bids were submitted. no, i cant confirm or deny any number. BoD members are not allowed to reveal such details.



LOL, so much for the newer more open PDGA.

I wish I could have been sitting in on this conversation.

"O.K., I want to make sure everyone signs the non-disclosure agreement that specifies you won't reveal how many magazine bids there were. Pat, did I get your copy?" Must have...


hey Lyle, your reactions a year ago to some of my information-rich posts were used as some of the "reasoning" to ban BoD members from talking openly in the first place. ye reap what ye sow.


Wait, but I thought most of the newly-elected-BoD ran on campaign premises of openness. So why would the new "open" board ban itself from being "more open" and providing more information?

I'm glad you get the point Pat, or do you?



Read it again and think back. He doesn't.

thanks bill. i could not attend the first part of the summit by teleconference, so i didnt vote. we vote to approve the minutes, so we pretty much know a day or three ahead of the time they are posted. i dont think i was being secretive at all, cuz i wasnt asked how many there were :) . personally, i dont see any reason to not talk about almost anything that goes on, is going on, or might possibly go on in our association. but the questions come so rarely, truth be told. i've been waiting for somone to ask about hte results of the SWOT analysis at the meeting. would i need to get permission to convey what we came up with? what about discussing just the ones i submitted? or agree with? i really dont know how i'd respond.

1st.. NO I am not Rich. And 2nd, if you think the field test of discs is stupid, maybe we can field test disc dogs instead. Because who would want information about the one of the most important part of disc golf (discs) in this magazine?

and Lyles....judging from your rating, this test might actually help you find some discs that you can actually play well with. ;)

and Lyles....judging from your rating, this test might actually help you find some discs that you can actually play well with. ;)



What is it with you guys and ratings? By these types of comments am I to conclude that unless you have a certain rating you must not be able to think? Well, based on Brad H's behaviors, the rating required to think is well over 1000 and I'm afraid that leaves you out too. Sorry.

You also didn't take the time to think about when that rating was set and to consider that in the past year and a half that my skills might have improved (not that it matters).

You still haven't answered the question. You've assumed something "new" is going to come out of this experiment but you haven't defined what that is. You haven't even given us a hypothesis or a model.

Let's start with the first problem with your experiment. Ever watched Barry Schultz throw? He's one of the best most consistent throwers out there. Ken Climo, even better. Yet neither of these guys throws the same disc the same way every time. Not through lack of trying. Start moving that down the skill ladder and by the time you get to players who might benefit from such an analysis the term consistency doesn't apply. So, the players who might benefit from such information are going to be so much all over the place that what info you might glean isn't going to be anything more than you can get from reading the manufacturer's spec sheet.

Even in the case of Pros, the relationship between a given disc and a given player is significant. I've seen enough posts by very good players who comment that a certain disc is "over-stable" that in my hands is "under-stable" to convince myself that much of disc flight characteristics (within the operating band of that disc) are dependent on the individual, how much arm vs. how much torque or snap that player has, and the overall throwing motion utilized by that player. That is, a definition of disc flight only takes you so far, you need to get the disc in your own hands to really know how it will perform for you.

The fact that Rich doesn't understand this might suggest that he knows less about disc golf than he thinks, or that he's writing a cute article that isn't going to really serve the community that well, but will make his mag look like he does to the uninformed. Neither scenario impresses me.

BTW - take a look through your old copies of DGWN. There's a reason they never did such an analysis. Despite the fact that Rick R. didn't have a "wonderfly" high rating, he knew enough to realize that such an analysis wouldn't give you that much information.

BTW Mr. Bagger, I throw Millenium, QOLF and SOLS. Here's why. First, the current cool trend in discs is a wider wing, certain benefits come with the wing, specifically something that Innova refers to as Speed. The correlation between speed and accuracy (the most important part of DG, being undefined). However, I have short fingers and the OLF and OLS have a narrower wing (something like 19mm vs. the 22mm of the the newer discs). Consequently, I get a better grip and heavens oh heavens, more control and accuracy. Combine that with the fact that the these discs fly as far as any other disc on the market and shazam (BTW - I get marginally more distance from them than I do from the Viking and Valk, comparable discs, but not statistically so. Furthermore, John Houck, a Texan owns Millennium and has done much for disc golf in Texas so I support his product).

Now, for me, and my short fingers, there are several discs that work. Include Wildcat, XS, Valk, Viking, Eagle and others in that list. Guess what, I can throw the Eagle, an older disc, as far as I can the newer Valk, and Viking. Say what? Well what are all those new discs doing for us? (keep in mind that the Eagle is over-stable and it takes a good throw with proper angle to get it on a path that allows it to travel as far as the other two discs).

If Rich wants to do us a favor here it is. Get a good physiologist, and a good cameraman and film a disc throw on a high speed camera. Go to a good engineer and have him design a throwing machine based on the arm movement elements measured in the film he's just taken. Make the machine adjustable so you can vary both pull power and torque. Then put every disc on the market in that machine and throw under five conditions:

1) high pull low torque (average young newbie)

2) medium pull high torque (skilled player under some conditions)

3) high pull high torque (skilled player under some conditions)

4) low to medium pull with high torque (skilled older player)

5) low pull low torque (some young newbies, many older newbies)

When you've done that please send me the info. That is something I'd love to see! BTW - I suspect that most players would be surprised at the results, but the manufacturers won't.

BTW - I forgot to add, I think it was Blake T. (I may be wrong) who said that his observations indicate that discs with narrower wings tend to be more accurate. I'm guessing when I say that is simply because the wider winged discs are too hard to... get a grip on...

I don't know what all the standards fo rthe test is going to be. I knowhe has many things that are going to be measured. Radar gun to test arm speeds, as well as many other factors that will be measured. I think that the test is going to be pretty good. I think he is looking at the possibility of all the different skill levels.

And yes, I have played with Barry :) And many other of the top pros, they are a different skill set level.

I will let you know more after the test this weekend. I think with 8 people, throwing 14 different models numerous times each is going to give a very accurate test of what these discs are capable of and who they might be best suited for. Compare these discs with our normal discs that we use and it could give people who throw certain discs already a small guide as to what other discs might work for them.

I think the newer players in general will get alot out of the article. If you think about it, how many new players do you see just throwing random stuff because they don't know any better,

And im not saying it's gonna be the best thing ever, but I think that you will agree when the article comes out, that it will be the most intense and conclusive test done yet. Time will tell. All I know is that I am ready to try some new plastic out and see what it can do for me.

I throw sidewinders as my main driver about 330, EL Eagles about 330 and firebirds sidearm about 330. I have been told by many people over the years that I have the smoothest most accurate sidearm they have seen. So, I guess I will be the sidearm tester, but will also try to test these discs as a slower, more of a hyzer release backhand player.

And no rating doesn't mean much, I would never want to act like Brad either!!!

Like you said, the magazine should be about disc golf, and discs are a major part of disc golf, so why not do a very strict testing of discs?? If you would like to see what we are going to do for the test, come on out this Sunday and be a part of the test.

You still haven't defined what you think is going to come out of this. Just that it is going to be useful. Sounds like a government project if I ever heard one. Well, we can't really give specifics, but we know lot's of good stuff is going to come out. :D

The machine would be AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but probably not going to happen, unless you want to pay for it :)

And I am all with you, I cannot throw the wider rim discs either. I throw TL's and EL's and Sidewinders very consistent, but give me a Wraith and I'm done. It just doesn't fit right.

I do not know the specifics of the test, he told me a few things on the phone, but he is the one who has come up with the standards, and I will not know what all we are doing till I get there Sunday morning.

I know that we will have a large flat field, distance marked, straight line marked. Edge lines marked to see where they might S-out at, radar gun to test speeds.

And then after we do the technical part, we are going to be aiming for targets to see what we think of the overall control.

well some of the older issues, 98,99,00 had quite a few disc tests done. And, I know I bought the MS after the test because of the comparison it got to a beat up roc. There was a good test of the Valk, Eagle, and TeeBird when they came out also.

We will see how it comes out in the end. between the 8 members testing discs, we have over 100 years experience throwing discs. I have been throwing since 94, as well as the other guy in my distance range. Rich has been throwing since 91 I believe, and all of the other guys have at least 10 years of tournament play under there belts.

why beat up someone who is wanting to do something? its not cost for you, lyle. if you dont value the information, then disregard it. or dont even look at it in the first place. its not like someone is asking for your money for a service you dont value. if someone wants to runs tests, more power to them. if they want to share the results, then GOD BLESS THEM!

Well, the radar gun controls for arm speed (or in essence it does) and I think that someone has looked at torque via marks on the disc in the past (it might have been a Blake experiment) which might not be too hard to accomplish if you had a marker and a fast enough camera. You might even be able make a small tower that you could film the discs going by from. If you could do this then you could at least compare throws of similar speed and torque for relevance.

You got me on the reviews from 98 and 99, I stand corrected.

why beat up someone who is wanting to do something? its not cost for you, lyle. if you dont value the information, then disregard it. or dont even look at it in the first place. its not like someone is asking for your money for a service you dont value. if someone wants to runs tests, more power to them. if they want to share the results, then GOD BLESS THEM!



A voice of enlightenment! Thanks so much Pat!

An ability to examine an experiment and determine if it has relevance is important, whether in running test of discs, or in pursuing business models in running a small non-profit organization. Reading a business text book and doing the best or what appears to be the best thing for that organization, based on text book models has proven the downfall of many companies over the past few years.

One might even argue that taking a small non-profit organization through an RFP process, given the vendors available and the business model, while sounding responsible, shows a lack of understanding of the situation that you face. Then again...

I have heard some of the arguments so many times before, and they have only complicated the development of disc golf.
I am amazed that many of the people with the most influence of the development of disc golf have this view of the sport of disc golf.

We (PDGA and the discgolfers) do not want to market a tool, the disc.
I guess we want to market the sport disc golf. And if we want to market a disc it should be the golf disc.

By calling the magazine Flying Disc Magazine and having the ambition to market all disc sports, the magazine clearly puts the disc ahead of disc golf.

This idea was initially spread by the company Wham-O who marketed their tool (or toy) Frisbee, because they wanted to sell as many frisbees as possible (and they did)
Flying Disc Magazine in the 70�s tried to do almost the same thing, (inspired by the magazine Frisbee World) and Flying Disc Magazine in 2007 is trying to do almost the same thing and it astonish me that, 30 years later, people want to market the disc more than a disc sport, for example disc golf.

I believe the purpose for a magazine for a sport should not be to inspire people to try other sports. This magazine should of course be to inspire people to try disc golf.
The magazine can of course be about other stuff than disc golf, but if PDGA put money, time and the PDGA brand in this magazine I believe it should be disc golf related. For example Disc Golf compared to Golf, how to stretch, how to work out etc. Not necessary everything that has something to do with a disc. If you want to read about Frisbee Dogs, Guts or Goaltimate or any of the countless of official or unofficial disc sports, you always have the internet.

If you were really going to get the maximum out of cross promotion and drawing new people to instantly understand our game, you would go for the jugular and force the confrontation with Wham-O on whether "Frisbee" is a truly a generic term and not a trademark as many veterans have stated.

Frisbee Golf Magazine could be the best name. Too bad it might take more than $10 per member per year to fight that battle...

there is going to be quite a bit about fitness and nutrition in the magazine from what I have been told. From what I know, Rich is in the process of writing a book about fitness and nutrition. It's gonna be a lot more than about discs. There will be courses highlighted, tournaments, maybe some collector pages, who knows??? But it is going to be a DISC GOLF magazine. I think you will see that in January when we get the first issue at our doors.

why beat up someone who is wanting to do something? its not cost for you, lyle. if you dont value the information, then disregard it. or dont even look at it in the first place. its not like someone is asking for your money for a service you dont value. if someone wants to runs tests, more power to them. if they want to share the results, then GOD BLESS THEM!



A voice of enlightenment! Thanks so much Pat!

Yeah, I especially liked the "why beat up someone who is wanting to do something?" line. :D

Well, the name of the game is disc golf, and especially PDGA have to accept that ;-)

why beat up someone who is wanting to do something? its not cost for you, lyle. if you dont value the information, then disregard it. or dont even look at it in the first place. its not like someone is asking for your money for a service you dont value. if someone wants to runs tests, more power to them. if they want to share the results, then GOD BLESS THEM!



A voice of enlightenment! Thanks so much Pat!

Yeah, I especially liked the "why beat up someone who is wanting to do something?" line. :D



The first time I saw Shrek (yes, I know you don't watch movies) there was this bathroom humor moment where I almost fell out of my chair in the theater. When I read that line I had a similar moment only I wasn't laughing... well actually I was.

BTW - there's a rumor running around that Pat missed the opening of the last Board Meeting, I was wondering... was he in your hot tub?

I have heard some of the arguments so many times before, and they have only complicated the development of disc golf.
I am amazed that many of the people with the most influence of the development of disc golf have this view of the sport of disc golf.

We (PDGA and the discgolfers) do not want to market a tool, the disc.
I guess we want to market the sport disc golf. And if we want to market a disc it should be the golf disc.

By calling the magazine Flying Disc Magazine and having the ambition to market all disc sports, the magazine clearly puts the disc ahead of disc golf.

This idea was initially spread by the company Wham-O who marketed their tool (or toy) Frisbee, because they wanted to sell as many frisbees as possible (and they did)
Flying Disc Magazine in the 70�s tried to do almost the same thing, (inspired by the magazine Frisbee World) and Flying Disc Magazine in 2007 is trying to do almost the same thing and it astonish me that, 30 years later, people want to market the disc more than a disc sport, for example disc golf.

I believe the purpose for a magazine for a sport should not be to inspire people to try other sports. This magazine should of course be to inspire people to try disc golf.
The magazine can of course be about other stuff than disc golf, but if PDGA put money, time and the PDGA brand in this magazine I believe it should be disc golf related. For example Disc Golf compared to Golf, how to stretch, how to work out etc. Not necessary everything that has something to do with a disc. If you want to read about Frisbee Dogs, Guts or Goaltimate or any of the countless of official or unofficial disc sports, you always have the internet.


Well put, sir.

I do not see how such strong opinions can be made when no one has seen a fianl copy of this magazine yet. I for one cannot wait. The idea of tourney coverage, disc/course reviews and highlights, FITNESS, etc etc etc in color excites me. I cant wait for January when I get my copy from the oh so hot USPS lady, then my opinion will be heard. As for now, go get a Star and read about Britney, its gossip and slander, just like all the assumptions flying around here about a mag no one has looked at yet.

I have strong opinions since I have read the presentation of the magazine. I have been working with disc golf for almost 30 years and seen disc golf having problem with its own identity so many times.

It is better to have opinions at an early stage.
When the first edition is released it might be too late :D

I do not see how such strong opinions can be made when no one has seen a fianl copy of this magazine yet. I for one cannot wait. The idea of tourney coverage, disc/course reviews and highlights, FITNESS, etc etc etc in color excites me. I cant wait for January when I get my copy from the oh so hot USPS lady, then my opinion will be heard. As for now, go get a Star and read about Britney, its gossip and slander, just like all the assumptions flying around here about a mag no one has looked at yet.



I don't have Jonas' disc golf experience, but I have some business experience and a lot of science experience. If I see flaws in how an experiment is being conducted, or in how any process is being carried out that concerns a sport I care about, should I not comment?

The concept of well lets wait and see, it might/will be O.K. has led to more mess-ups than can be counted. I would think, especially with what's been going on in this country over the last seven years, that would be obvious.

It's called being pro-active. Post on the ask Pat Brenner thread, he'll define it for you.

I have heard some of the arguments so many times before, and they have only complicated the development of disc golf.
I am amazed that many of the people with the most influence of the development of disc golf have this view of the sport of disc golf.

We (PDGA and the discgolfers) do not want to market a tool, the disc.
I guess we want to market the sport disc golf. And if we want to market a disc it should be the golf disc.

By calling the magazine Flying Disc Magazine and having the ambition to market all disc sports, the magazine clearly puts the disc ahead of disc golf.

This idea was initially spread by the company Wham-O who marketed their tool (or toy) Frisbee, because they wanted to sell as many frisbees as possible (and they did)
Flying Disc Magazine in the 70�s tried to do almost the same thing, (inspired by the magazine Frisbee World) and Flying Disc Magazine in 2007 is trying to do almost the same thing and it astonish me that, 30 years later, people want to market the disc more than a disc sport, for example disc golf.

I believe the purpose for a magazine for a sport should not be to inspire people to try other sports. This magazine should of course be to inspire people to try disc golf.
The magazine can of course be about other stuff than disc golf, but if PDGA put money, time and the PDGA brand in this magazine I believe it should be disc golf related. For example Disc Golf compared to Golf, how to stretch, how to work out etc. Not necessary everything that has something to do with a disc. If you want to read about Frisbee Dogs, Guts or Goaltimate or any of the countless of official or unofficial disc sports, you always have the internet.


Well put, sir.



Hey look! I agree with Whorley! Thanks Jonas!

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I'm guessing there was some important message concerning the diversity of topic in magazines about disc golf in that video, but it keeps coming up as busy. Perhaps you can give us a synopsis Pat?

BTW, the August minutes of the Board indicated that only two magazine bids were received by the deadline. So I guess if more were considered, that would have involved some extenuating circumstances that allowed them to also get considered.

Pat-

Thanks for posting that. It is certainly worth it to watch the entire lecture on YouTube. Very inspirational and motivating.

Thanks again,

-Dave

Wow! how inspirational. You should check out Saturday Night Live. They have this great skit on personal affirmation that you'd really dig.

Here's a question: Why do we need someone to tell us to behave with common sense? Why is that we avoid such advice even we we get it?