Hello fellow disc golfers :)

As some of you know, titleDISC.com has changed ownership. For many years, titleDISC has been the foremost online PDGA (and non-PDGA) event registration site. As of today, I have taken over the reigns and I am looking to do some cool new things with the site. I need your feedback as players and as TDs. I know that things at titleDISC have been moving somewhat slowly lately and I won't make excuses for that. I will say that Ben's personal life has kept him from being as responsive and as timely as he would have liked. This is a big part of why he approached me to take over. Moving forward, Deidre and I are committed to making titleDISC what it should be: player-friendly. What else gets added will be up to you.

Please take a look at titleDISC.com and send me PMs or emails with your ideas. Please also check regularly for new events being added and if you are thinking of running an event, titleDISC will be happy to help you get online and ready to accept entries! I thank you all in advance for your support during this transitional period and I hope that if any of you have had issues with titleDISC in the past, you will give me the chance to make it right and provide a great online tournament registration experience in the future :)

Thanks!

Joshua Dann
#20737

Josh do you know if the BAB entries got sent to Lubbock??

Ben says that they did. He said that he sent Marcus an email with the details and a check with the funds. I'm still waiting to hear from El Chile about what issue he had. I want all the info I can get, so please PM me if you have more.

The one thing I would like from a player's point of view is a profile that helps me register and shows which events I've already entered.

the PDGA itself is talking about developing an online registration service in 2008. imo, the association should not as a rule compete with disc golf service providers. at a minimum we should establish a data exchange process and let ANY online registration provider supply reg data. but thats just me.

Twisted Flyer.com is doing online registration now as well. They are hooking up all the okie tournaments and it's working pretty good.

Hello fellow disc golfers :)

As some of you know, titleDISC.com has changed ownership. For many years, titleDISC has been the foremost online PDGA (and non-PDGA) event registration site. As of today, I have taken over the reigns and I am looking to do some cool new things with the site. I need your feedback as players and as TDs. I know that things at titleDISC have been moving somewhat slowly lately and I won't make excuses for that. I will say that Ben's personal life has kept him from being as responsive and as timely as he would have liked. This is a big part of why he approached me to take over. Moving forward, Deidre and I are committed to making titleDISC what it should be: player-friendly. What else gets added will be up to you.

Please take a look at titleDISC.com and send me PMs or emails with your ideas. Please also check regularly for new events being added and if you are thinking of running an event, titleDISC will be happy to help you get online and ready to accept entries! I thank you all in advance for your support during this transitional period and I hope that if any of you have had issues with titleDISC in the past, you will give me the chance to make it right and provide a great online tournament registration experience in the future :)

Thanks!

Joshua Dann
#20737



Josh set up the online registration site that I use for my events and they were seamless. (with the exception of me screwing up a few things :o)

I know there are other registration sites out there, but with Josh at the helm of titleDisc.com, I have no doubt that it will be the best around.

Will TitleDisc.com start sponsoring events now instead of just making money off of disc golfers?

Will TitleDisc.com start sponsoring events now instead of just making money off of disc golfers?


That's kindof a negative spin on the question, but yes. In fact, I'm planning a TitleDISC Open C-Tier in the spring. Of course (as with Solstice and any other business), the goal is to make money but I have no aspirations of retiring off of the business. If I can pay for my time and costs associated with running titleDISC, I'm happy. My goal is to provide a service to the community that I feel is desperately needed, and I don't just mean a place to sign up for events. I can't say much more right now, but I hope to do some really cool things.

As for letting you view which events you've already entered, I've got plans to do just that. At first it will just be a list, but ultimately a calendar with upcoming events that you're already in and ones that you can sign up for. Eventually, players will be able to use titleDISC for managing their entire disc golf calendar and even run their own club mini-sites... perhaps I've already said too much :)

Why is every Disc Golf related endeavor evil unless it operates at a loss ?

I know what you mean... I found it especially odd coming from "Solstice_Disc_Sports", another for-profit disc-golf-based business.

Anyway, I have been sponsoring tournaments for years. I have been working hard to actually provide something to the community aside from simple financial contributions, and titleDISC.com is a great opportunity to further my efforts. Hopefully, most will see it as a positive thing and give me feedback that will help make titleDISC so much more than online tournament entry.

I'm glad that you will be giving back to the sport. It seemed like the "old" TitleDisc.com's fees were too expensive and to my knowledge they didn't sponsor disc golf in any way. I'm sorry you took the question negatively, but it is a question based in truth. I just like to see when a company recognizes who supports them and gives a little back once in a while. ;)

I'm glad that you will be giving back to the sport. It seemed like the "old" TitleDisc.com's fees were too expensive and to my knowledge they didn't sponsor disc golf in any way. I'm sorry you took the question negatively, but it is a question based in truth. I just like to see when a company recognizes who supports them and gives a little back once in a while. ;)



In this case it is about time that disc golfers recognize who has been supporting them and give back to Josh. If you play events in North Texas you have seen T sponsorships and web sites with his name on them. If he wants to make a few dollars of a valuable service it couldn't be going to a more deserving person.

Why is every Disc Golf related endeavor evil unless it operates at a loss ?



My thought exactly.

God forbid someone actually attempts to give themselves a tangible reason to stave off burnout.



I for one am glad to see Josh stepping in and taking Titledisc to another level. Without Josh, there would be no "Atwood" t-shirts. :)

I thought their fees were actually pretty competative with a few other on-line entry sites.....even cheaper in some instances. The one experience I had getting my event on Titledisc was a positive one. As a player, I have had positive experiences signing up for events. Sounds like Ben recognized that he couldnt effectively manage Titledisc, and has passed it on. I for one plan on using Titledisc in the furutre whenever I can.

Hello fellow disc golfers :)

As some of you know, titleDISC.com has changed ownership. For many years, titleDISC has been the foremost online PDGA (and non-PDGA) event registration site. As of today, I have taken over the reigns and I am looking to do some cool new things with the site. I need your feedback as players and as TDs. I know that things at titleDISC have been moving somewhat slowly lately and I won't make excuses for that. I will say that Ben's personal life has kept him from being as responsive and as timely as he would have liked. This is a big part of why he approached me to take over. Moving forward, Deidre and I are committed to making titleDISC what it should be: player-friendly. What else gets added will be up to you.

Please take a look at titleDISC.com and send me PMs or emails with your ideas. Please also check regularly for new events being added and if you are thinking of running an event, titleDISC will be happy to help you get online and ready to accept entries! I thank you all in advance for your support during this transitional period and I hope that if any of you have had issues with titleDISC in the past, you will give me the chance to make it right and provide a great online tournament registration experience in the future :)

Thanks!

Joshua Dann
#20737



:DSweet....As a long time user of TitleDisc...I have been wavering with my support as of late. Ive recommended the site to a few people who were "less than satisfied" with the "customer service" due to Ben's "personal issues...which I understand completely..."sh*t happens".. :o

I am noticing MANY more of these sites now opening up...
looks like competition is on the rise.... :D

competition is a good thing :). If I have my way, I'll be able to offer a far better service at the same or lower price as those other guys. It will take some time to get everything done like I want it, but this won't be your father's titleDISC much longer :D

Thanks for the kind words guys, it means a lot. Oh, and Tony - I still have a bunch of those t-shirts if you want some. If I ever manage to sell any more (at whatever price), 100% of the funds - not just profits - will go to seewhere for his brother's family. That was the original point of the thing, it was just bad timing. We never came close to making our money back but that's in the past... I'll be happy to just get them out of my garage :D.

another note on titleDISC moving forward: This is not the first time I've heard about recent customer service issues. In Ben's defense, his life has been very hectic and he hasn't even had time to play much disc golf. Like Magilla says, "sh*t happens", even to those with the best intentions. Ben contacted me specifically because he wanted someone to take over who has the programming skills and technical resources to make titleDISC become more than what it is now. I appreciate his confidence in me and I really hope I can not only further his vision, but bring some of my own to the site. While I understand the frustrations that some people have had lately with titleDISC, I ask that you contact me directly to resolve them rather than airing dirty laundry here on the boards. I'm not trying to hide from the facts, but I am trying to rectify the issues and restore titleDISC's good name. All I ask is that those with issues at least give me a chance to make it right before taking it public. That said, I'm all for some constructive criticism whether it be public or private. Here's my contact info:

Joshua Dann
titleDISC.com
[email protected]
214-868-2996

I might not be able to answer the phone during normal business hours (or normal golfing hours :D) but I will always answer email as quickly as possible and if you leave me a voicemail, I'll return the call as soon as I can. I'm actively taking new tournaments for titleDISC but the preferred method is to send it via email rather than the TD info page. In a few days, the domain will be transferred to my server and I'll have complete control, but until then the TD info page will still send info to Ben instead of to me. If you use that form, I can't guarantee the speed of response. If you send me an email, I can promise that it will be up ASAP.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that titleDISC still has support in the community. I'm also glad to see that companies like Solstice are setting a good example of community support. I hope to join those ranks soon :).

Giles - flattery will get you nothing :D. BTW - I don't think I'm making the McKinney mini tonight b/c one of our club members is moving away and today will be our last chance to golf together. If anything changes on that front, I'll let you know.

according to the summit minutes (http://www.pdga.com/documents/boardminutes/2007-09-21BODMeetingMinutesApproved.pdf) , the PDGA itself will provide some competition for online registration service providers, in cooperation with the current fulfillment shop (aka www.discgolfsignup.com (http://www.discgolfsignup.com))

To me, this is sad... they say that they plan to take bids, but why not approach existing businesses for bids *before* moving forward with an official PDGA solution? Also, since the PDGA is a sanctioning body, I think there's a pretty obvious conflict of interest here.

Either way, it doesn't bother me that much. I know that titleDISC will be better for TDs and players alike than whatever the PDGA can come up with. I've been trying and trying to help the PDGA get their technology straightened out, but they don't seem interested in moving into the 21st century.

The PDGA fulfillment house has a proven system in place which we already use for the Pro and Am World Championships. Members have been asking for many years for the convenience to be able to view sanctioned events on the online PDGA calendar and to have the ability to click on a link to register for that event. You'll also be able to pay your membership dues at the same time for one stop shopping and convenience. This proposed system will be optional and tournament directors will have the choice to use any provider they wish to handle their registration. The PDGA will only be offering this benefit to sanctioned events. Once the system is in place next year, we plan on putting out an RFP for the 2009 season to ensure that we are getting the best value for our members. As you said, competition is a good thing.

In summary, we already have the capability and a system in place so the cost to the members to implement this convenience will be minimal while also providing the association with an additional stream of revenue which we can invest back into the sport.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

so basically, taking business away from companies like mine. Why not simply offer this link to the TD and allow them to use whichever service they want? Even in 2009, I wouldn't like the idea of titleDISC being the one and only service that links directly from the PDGA site. TDs should be free to choose their signup service without having to give up the convenience of a link from pdga.com. Disallowing this is anti-competitive by its very nature. what is the motivation to improve if you have a captive audience?

what is the motivation to improve if you have a captive audience?


True.

I'm sure there are a lot of online registration sites that would like to be involved directly with the PDGA for online registration. Sounds like they are taking care of it in-house.

It really is about time the pdga gets a solid online registration system going. I mean we are well into the 2000's you know.

why not simply develop and publish a format for data exchange that all online reg service providers could use? that way ALL service providers could submit registrations directly to the event database via a solid interface, rather than limiting participation to a single vendor? we'd enable a whole slew of providers to offer reg services, improve the efficiency of the overall reg process, and spur comeptition to improve. rather than moving into direct competition with our own vendors. selecting a preferred vendor via an RFP does not really do much in this case... just puts the "preferred" status up for grabs. it would be far better in the long run to engage any site that could meet the technical requirements.

Brian Graham said

This proposed system will be optional and tournament directors will have the choice to use any provider they wish to handle their registration.

Good idea, sandal.

Brian Graham said

This proposed system will be optional and tournament directors will have the choice to use any provider they wish to handle their registration.




That's true, but unless I read it wrong, it's optional to use their service, meaning that TDs are not required to use them to run a sanctioned event. But, if you want the link straight from the tournament schedule... then there's only one choice: the "preferred" vendor. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I hate to get upset over a misunderstanding :)

BTW, sandals... I tried to offer that very technology to the PDGA. I even had a few of my fellow DG web developers on board to help make it happen free of charge. The PDGA stopped responding to my emails.

an update for those interested:

titleDISC.com has the advantage of being the only site on the internet custom-written specifically for handling online disc golf tournament registration. I am currently in the process of adding lots of cool features that will further set it apart from the competition. Some of these upcoming features are:

<u>Personalized logins for Players</u>
you will be able to store your player info at titleDISC.com once and use it to enter events any time without having to re-enter the same old info over and over again. you will also be able to view which tournaments you have already signed up for and mark tournaments that you would like to consider signing up for in the future ("wish-list" style). You will be able to receive automatic notification when events on your wish list are about to close due to capacity or date.

<u>Personalized logins for Tournament Directors</u>
TDs will be able to view real-time information about how many have registered for their event including names, divisions, and entry fees paid. TDs will be able to control how many spots are available for their events via titleDISC.com and will be able to open or close registration whenever necessary. TDs will be able to choose to make the players list public via titleDISC.com

<u>Tournament Fundraiser Items</u>
titleDISC.com will continue offering online sale of tournament fundraiser discs with entries, and will be adding the ability to purchase these items even online if you won't be attending the event.

<u>Free hosting for custom tournament websites</u>
titleDISC.com will offer free hosting for any tournament that uses titleDISC for online registration. This includes basic setup and a custom web address on any of our disc golf related domains, or the TD may choose to purchase their own domain name and we host that site. Limited custom design is also available for a small fee (see http://www.carrolltonopen.com/ for an example :D).

All of these features and more will be coming over the next few months. We are also working on a cool new layout and new logos. titleDISC.com is committed to remaining your choice for disc golf registration.

Another update: TDs with tournaments listed on titleDISC can now receive a personalized login to view realtime tournament registration for their event. titleDISC is the only site on the internet to make this available to Disc Golf TDs. I'm sure that many will follow in our footsteps (as usual ;)) but as they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :D

josh do you know if the $$ was ever sent to BAB?

sorry for the late response. Yes, that $$ was sent out and Marcus let me know that he received it. it was one of the last checks that Ben cut before the change in ownership.

cool good to know thanks

Now that the initial overhaul of titleDISC.com is complete, I am ready to start making some even cooler changes :)

Please go check out the new look of http://www.titleDISC.com/ and let me know what you think. Most of the major changes that I've made aren't visible on the front end, but I would like some feedback on what is visible. thanks in advance!

Looking good so far Joshua. Good to see a fresh look to the place.

Thanks Lizard :)

I noticed that pdgasignup.com (the new "official" PDGA registration page) is charging $3.50 flat for processing fees... that's just silly. For the majority of players, it's more expensive than the industry standard and it just doesn't make sense to charge a flat fee since credit card processing companies charge a percentage.

Oh yeah, that site is kinda ugly, too :D

I've added new forums to titleDISC.com. Each event will get its own forum, with series events grouped together. Current events will be stickied from the time they are listed on titleDISC until the day after the event. Clubs may also request a free forum on titleDISC for their own use. We do not require that they be affiliated with any organization, and we do not require forum members to be registered with the PDGA. Hopefully this will give disc golfers of all types a place to communicate and collaborate. I've also added an auto-populating preregistration list page that can be enabled for any event listed on titleDISC.

I've also added the ability for TDs to choose to subsidize all or part of the players' titleDISC fees. The idea here is that the TD seeks out a sponsor willing to cover all online registration fees and we list that sponsor's link for free on titleDISC. hen, when checks are mailed out to the TD, I will withhold the titleDISC fees and send an itemized list so that the TD can recoup the expenses from their sponsor. Or, I suppose the TD could simply choose to pay them out of tournament profits... whatever they choose. The fee remains the same at 6% (for now - this may change a bit as well) but the TD can subsidize all of it or half of it. More details available upon request.

about the fee structure... I am considering moving to a 2.5% + $1.50 structure. This would result in lower fees overall... a bit higher for ams (the fee for a $30 entry goes from $1.80 to $2.25) but significantly lower for pros (the fee for a $100 entry goes from $6 to $4). It also means that players pay the same for titleDISC service regardless of the division. PayPal takes 2.5% +$0.30. + about another $0.05. titleDISC would make $1.15 or so per entry with the new structure, rather than making a few pennies on an am entry and a couple dollars on a pro one. I'd like feedback on this, if you don't mind :)

I'm working on the user sign-in feature that will allow players to store their information and simply click to add events to their cart without having to re-enter data for each entry. That will be the next major update.

At this point, I can't imagine one good reason for a TD to deny their players the titleDISC experience :). If anyone out there can... please let me know. I want titleDISC to be the best it possibly can be.

josh, thats good stuff. keep it coming!

go with your 2.5%+1.50 idea. first, its more fair, as you pointed out. it also allows you to offer your services to low cost, Am oriented events so it strengthens your biz model.

are u all on mysql on this site?

sandals, your links are switched in your sig

and yes, I'm on mysql. why? trying to hack me? ;)

I noticed that pdgasignup.com (the new "official" PDGA registration page) is charging $3.50 flat for processing fees... that's just silly. For the majority of players, it's more expensive than the industry standard and it just doesn't make sense to charge a flat fee since credit card processing companies charge a percentage.

Oh yeah, that site is kinda ugly, too :D

I've added new forums to titleDISC.com. Each event will get its own forum, with series events grouped together. Current events will be stickied from the time they are listed on titleDISC until the day after the event. Clubs may also request a free forum on titleDISC for their own use. We do not require that they be affiliated with any organization, and we do not require forum members to be registered with the PDGA. Hopefully this will give disc golfers of all types a place to communicate and collaborate. I've also added an auto-populating preregistration list page that can be enabled for any event listed on titleDISC.

I've also added the ability for TDs to choose to subsidize all or part of the players' titleDISC fees. The idea here is that the TD seeks out a sponsor willing to cover all online registration fees and we list that sponsor's link for free on titleDISC. hen, when checks are mailed out to the TD, I will withhold the titleDISC fees and send an itemized list so that the TD can recoup the expenses from their sponsor. Or, I suppose the TD could simply choose to pay them out of tournament profits... whatever they choose. The fee remains the same at 6% (for now - this may change a bit as well) but the TD can subsidize all of it or half of it. More details available upon request.

about the fee structure... I am considering moving to a 2.5% + $1.50 structure. This would result in lower fees overall... a bit higher for ams (the fee for a $30 entry goes from $1.80 to $2.25) but significantly lower for pros (the fee for a $100 entry goes from $6 to $4). It also means that players pay the same for titleDISC service regardless of the division. PayPal takes 2.5% +$0.30. + about another $0.05. titleDISC would make $1.15 or so per entry with the new structure, rather than making a few pennies on an am entry and a couple dollars on a pro one. I'd like feedback on this, if you don't mind :)

I'm working on the user sign-in feature that will allow players to store their information and simply click to add events to their cart without having to re-enter data for each entry. That will be the next major update.

At this point, I can't imagine one good reason for a TD to deny their players the titleDISC experience :). If anyone out there can... please let me know. I want titleDISC to be the best it possibly can be.



Joshua,

The new PDGA online registration system at PDGAsignup.com (http://pdgasignup.com) does not charge a flat processing fee as you stated in your post above. We charge a percentage of entry fees with a sliding scale based upon the amount of the entry fee. Using the $162 Pro Open entry fee for the Open at Maple Hill (http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&amp;PROD=1198118185) as an example, players could register for that event online at PDGAsignup.com for $7.50, where it would cost them $9.72 using the current TitleDisc fee structure.

The PDGA is happy that retailers like yourself are offering similar services as it is a valuable and convenient service for tournament competitors and it helps tournament directors promote their events. We are also happy that you use the PDGA message board to promote TitleDisc, but I am sorry that you feel it necessary to use this forum to post misleading information and attack the PDGA system with comments like "Oh yeah, that site is kinda ugly, too".

I will use common courtesy and not tout the many benefits the PDGA's system offers on this "TitleDisc" titled thread. I hope that you can extend us this same courtesy in the future. As a TD, I have used both TitleDisc.com and DiscGolfSignup.com (predecessor to PDGAsignup.com) in years past and I was very happy with the service that I received from both off these service providers.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

for what it's worth, the thread *was* titled titleDISC.com until you changed it. Also, the idea that "The PDGA is happy that retailers like yourself are offering similar services" is laughable considering titleDISC's place in the timeline of online Disc Golf registration.

you're right about the Pro entry fee at the Open at Maple Hill, which is a big reason why I'm considering changing the structure. You neglected to mention that with the structure I've proposed, titleDISC's fee would go down to $5.55, almost two full dollars *less* than PDGASignup. an Intermediate player wanting to register for Bowling Green on PDGASignup would pay $3.50 on a $35 entry which is exactly 10%. with titleDISC's curent structure, the fee would be $2.10 and only $2.38 under the new structure. For 95% of entries, titleDISC is already cheaper for the player. If I decide to make the fee structure change, 100% of them will be cheaper than PDGASignup.com.

PDGASignup absolutely *does* charge a flat processing fee, as I stated in my post above. One fee per tournament, regardless of the range of entry fees. That is the very definition of "flat".

the simple fact is that the PDGA has stomped on companies like mine (who have supported the PDGA and their events for upwards of 10 years) by adopting pdgasignup.com as their official registration service. how is it fair competition to put a checkbox on sanctioning forms that defaults tournaments into the PDGA's new sideline and away from titleDISC and our other competitors? How is it fair competition to make the only available direct link to signup be for TDs who opt to use PDGASignup.com? Please don't discuss common courtesy considering the recent actions of the PDGA in this matter.

Oh, and the site *is* ugly. I'm not sure how that is misleading anyone... the reader obviously knows that it is my opinion and if anything, it should drive traffic to your new profit-maker if for no other reason than simply out of curiosity about how ugly it really is.

Please don't expect me to be friendly about this matter. The PDGA has struck a major blow to my industry without regard for anything but profit. I believe that titleDISC is already the superior product, but I am working night and day to ensure that I offer the industry's best. I'm not doing it for profit, I'm even reducing my fees to make it more fair to the player. I barely make enough to cover my expenses... at last total, I determined that I make about $1.50 per hour from titleDISC. I'm doing it because the community deserves something better than PDGASignup.com.

I have asked multiple times and sent many an email to the PDGA trying to get a response on this matter, and have not received *anything*. Oh and the next time you complain about me using the PDGA message board to promote your competitor... think about this: I didn't ask to be your competition. you decided to enter my market and you did so with what I consider to be extremely poor business ethics. I will not sit quietly.

Joshua,

I sincerely hope that your system is ultimately better, cheaper and prettier and that you will bid to provide these services to the PDGA when the process is opened to outside vendors in 2009. Competition is a good thing as it usually results in improved service and more competitive pricing for the customer. Look how much you have improved TitleDisc in recent weeks. If the result of all this is improved service at a lower price for PDGA members, then everyone is a winner.



I have asked multiple times and sent many an email to the PDGA trying to get a response on this matter, and have not received *anything*.


I do not have a record of you contacting me or anyone else via telephone or e-mail at the PDGA office one time since the PDGA announced it would begin offering free online registration to tournament directors of sanctioned events. I have a personal policy of answering every e-mail that I receive and I have no record of you ever contacting me since I was hired as executive director in April 2007. Please feel free to contact me anytime you would like to discuss anything that may be on your mind.



Oh and the next time you complain about me using the PDGA message board to promote your competitor... think about this: I didn't ask to be your competition.


Please read my post carefully. I did not complain about you using the PDGA message board to promote your "for profit" business. In fact, I clearly stated the exact opposite when I posted, " The PDGA is happy that retailers like yourself are offering similar services as it is a valuable and convenient service for tournament competitors and it helps tournament directors promote their events. We are also happy that you use the PDGA message board to promote TitleDisc... "

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

Post deleted by baldguy

Brian,

I want to be sure that I'm not operating under misconceptions. Please help me understand the following:

1.) Is the PDGA directly profiting from online event registrations using PDGASignup.com?

2.) Is the configuration for 2008 set in stone? By that, I mean to ask if the PDGA has a contract for 2008 to only offer direct link signup through PDGASignup.com?

3.) Has the PDGA considered offering multiple choices for direct-link registration?

The biggest issues I have had with this whole ordeal are that the PDGA is making a direct profit from online registration, which I see as an unethical business practice since the only option for TDs to get direct-link registration from pdga.com is to use the service that the PDGA profits from. I also believe it is unethical to provide PDGASignup.com as the only online registration option on the sanctioning form. If any of my assumptions are incorrect, I'd like to know. My attitude on the matter may change dramatically if it turns out that I've been misinformed this whole time.

If my assumptions are correct... you have to understand why I'm upset. If they aren't, I would like to know.

Joshua,

<font color="blue"> 1.) Is the PDGA directly profiting from online event registrations using PDGASignup.com? </font>

Yes, the PDGA will make a very modest profit from online registrations using PDGASignup.com.

<font color="blue"> 2.) Is the configuration for 2008 set in stone? By that, I mean to ask if the PDGA has a contract for 2008 to only offer direct link signup through PDGASignup.com?</font>

The Board of Directors approved the online registration program for 2008 with the caveat that we evaluate the program at the end of the year and explore the possibilities of putting the service out for bids in 2009.

<font color="blue">3.) Has the PDGA considered offering multiple choices for direct-link registration?</font>

I personally have absolutely no problem with offering tournment directors a choice of online registration providers on the sanctioning agreement. I am sure that this is something that the BOD will explore for 2009.


<font color="blue">The biggest issues I have had with this whole ordeal are that the PDGA is making a direct profit from online registration, which I see as an unethical business practice since the only option for TDs to get direct-link registration from pdga.com is to use the service that the PDGA profits from. I also believe it is unethical to provide PDGASignup.com as the only online registration option on the sanctioning form.</font>

Whether we like it or not, the PDGA must be run like a business and we must operate in the black or we would eventually go out of business. The PDGA will make a very modest profit from the online registration service but that money will not go into anyone's pocket, it will be used by the association just as our other revenue streams are, to promote the sport and support our programs.Online registration is a service, not a product so I do not agree with you that we are being unethical in our business practices. The PDGA offers many services to our members and tournament directors and online registration is just another one of these services. It is also a service that many of our members and tournament directors have requested that the we offer and one that is only available to PDGA sanctioned events. This is no different than our insurance policy. Do you believe we are being unethical by offering only our PDGA insurance policy to tournament directors on the sanctioning agreement?

Bottom line is that the service is optional and tournament directors can use anyone they want.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

Actually yes... I think that TDs should have a choice in their insurance provider as well. But while we're making that comparison, did the PDGA start offering insurance after years of other businesses supporting the PDGA with insurance policies?

It is not unethical that the PDGA offers these services. What is unethical is the way that they are offered. Optional, yes... but is it as easy for TDs to choose another provider? Do they get all the same benefits?

I would not have a problem at all if the PDGA were to offer their service in the same way that everyone else does. I don't mind them making money as long as they do it fairly. The crux of my whole argument is the way the PDGA has "elbowed out" other providers. Take that part away, and we have no quarrel.

Actually yes... I think that TDs should have a choice in their insurance provider as well. But while we're making that comparison, did the PDGA start offering insurance after years of other businesses supporting the PDGA with insurance policies?

It is not unethical that the PDGA offers these services. What is unethical is the way that they are offered. Optional, yes... but is it as easy for TDs to choose another provider? Do they get all the same benefits?

I would not have a problem at all if the PDGA were to offer their service in the same way that everyone else does. I don't mind them making money as long as they do it fairly. The crux of my whole argument is the way the PDGA has "elbowed out" other providers. Take that part away, and we have no quarrel.



TD's do have a choice in choosing their insurance provider. They can choose to be covered under the PDGA's tour policy and receive a certificate of co-insurance for $50 by checking the appropriate box on the sanctioning agreement or they can choose to get their own insurance from a private provider. My point is that we do not include Geico, State Farm, Travelers, or any other private insurance company as options on our sanctioning agreement because they are private companies and are not affiliated with the PDGA in an official capacity. And to answer the second part of your question.... Yes, at some point the PDGA did start offering insurance after years of other insurance companies insuring PDGA events. I was not around at that time but I would venture to guess that neither Geico, State Farm, Travelers nor any one of the hundreds of other insurance companies claimed that the PDGA was being unethical, unfair and elbowing them out.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

I also do not think that the PDGA's events were the primary source of income for Geico, State Farm, or Travelers.

Do you really not understand my point of view? Do you not see the way this will affect my business? Do you really think that the, as you put it, modest stream of income for the PDGA is worth hurting businesses like mine? Was that even a consideration for the PDGA when this decision was made?

I also do not think that the PDGA's events were the primary source of income for Geico, State Farm, or Travelers.

Do you really not understand my point of view? Do you not see the way this will affect my business? Do you really think that the, as you put it, modest stream of income for the PDGA is worth hurting businesses like mine? Was that even a consideration for the PDGA when this decision was made?



Have to agree with bald dude here.........

Do you really not understand my point of view? Do you not see the way this will affect my business? Do you really think that the, as you put it, modest stream of income for the PDGA is worth hurting businesses like mine? Was that even a consideration for the PDGA when this decision was made?



Joshua,

I fully understand what you are saying. We just seem to have a difference of opinions on this matter. You contend that the PDGA should not provide a service that our members have requested that we offer because you will personally not make as much money. I contend that it is a valuable service that we can offer to tournament directors of our sanctioned events which will generate enough revenue so that it will not cost our members more money to support. Only time will tell how much you will be affected but I cannot imagine that a TitleDisc customer who is happy with the service that they have received from you in the past, would dump you for PDGAsignup.com. The service we currently offer is optional and the process will be opened for bids in 2009, so you will have the opportunity to bid to provide this service if your system and prices are better than PDGAsignup.

Regards,
Brian Graham
PDGA Executive Director

no, you still do not understand.

my contention is that the PDGA has moved into an existing market in an unfair way. Previously, TDs chose their online registration vendors based simply on the quality of service provided. All service providers could compete in equal ways for their business. Now, no service providers can compete fairly with the PDGA because the PDGA has decided to reserve features on pdga.com exclusively for pdgasignup.com. The PDGA has put their new site on the *sanctioning forms* which is a *required* piece of paperwork for all PDGA TDs. That is advertising on a venue not available to any other businesses. This is unethical and anti-competitive.

The PDGA has used their position as a sanctioning body to gain an unfair advantage over and take business away from their supporters. titleDISC pioneered online registration for Disc Golf events. titleDISC has been providing support for PDGA events for approximately 10 years, enabling greater exposure and higher registration numbers. Other vendors have entered the market more recently and have provided a myriad of options for TDs that promote improvement on all sides via healthy competition. I have no problem with that at all, even if it means that I might make less money. Where I have a problem is the method that the PDGA has used to enter the market.

Brian, if you honestly still cannot understand my point... perhaps my continued explanation is futile. This is not a difficult concept and you seem like an intelligent person. I have to believe that you simply do not want to see my point of view. I've received emails and PMs from plenty of other people who do. I would much prefer that we work together to resolve these issues and keep the market a fair one. I don't know what motivated the PDGA to intentionally hurt businesses which have so happily supported them for so long, but I have to believe it was simply an oversight. Your reluctance to grasp this concept or admit any wrongdoing on the part of the PDGA is starting to make me question my beliefs in this matter.

Perhaps the PDGA does not consider me or anyone else in this market worth considering. Perhaps the PDGA simply does not care. I will reiterate: I do not have a problem with the PDGA getting into the online registration market and potentially taking money from my business. On an even playing field, I have full confidence in my ability to provide a better service and earn the business that titleDISC needs to survive. I *do* have a problem the the anti-competitive measures that the PDGA has taken to give themselves an unfair advantage over those who support them.

Now do you understand?

I do

thanks, Matt :)

But, do you try to understand Brian's point of view ?

The PDGA as a first step into the online registration business knew the any thing they provided on their site as a service would be tied to the PDGA name and reputation. Instead of opening it up to all comers, they chose to go with a group they had used for years to do other services, and one they had some manner of control over content and level of service (I hope).

Do you not think that the TD would not think to complain about the PDGA if they used a PDGA form to select "Honest John's Registration Services" from a list provided by the PDGA and the money from all of it's players disappeared ? It does not matter whether the lose of funds is the fault of the PDGA, the complaints would probably be directed at the PDGA and would be loud and long.

I applaud the PDGA for getting involved with online registration at all, and think they should provide a list of trusted vendors (even if it is only one) and allow the TD to provide an alternate URL. There are some out there that have their own registration services, and some that use services like Titledisc or Marshall Street.

Whether or not the PDGA has an implicit moral or ethical imperative against directly competing with a for profit venture that also supports disc golf is another question that I can not find an easy answer for.

Of course I have tried to understand Brian's point of view. I even suggested offering a "controlled" list of authorized vendors. However, if offering a reliable service that the PDGA could put their name to was the primary goal, I do not think they would be charging as much as they are and making an additional profit from the service. I think that if their motivation was really so innocent, they would be actually *paying* their vendor, rather than the other way around (no, I'm not trying to the the PDGA to pay me). Somehow, the PDGA allows TDs to trust Innova, Discraft, Gateway, and others as vendors for merchandise for PDGA events. I don't see how this is any different.

I cannot agree with applauding their entrance into the business, as I don't see it as necessary. I think there are plenty of choices already that are proven and trustworthy. but that's not the subject of this discussion.

I think the last paragraph in your post speaks to my point, at least in part. It's really a question of whether the PDGA cares about the businesses that support it or not. If the answer is no... then it makes sense to use whatever power and influence they have as a governing entity to make as much profit as possible. If the answer is yes, however, they have an obligation to compete fairly if they're going to compete.

The PDGA is not much different from a co-op that organizes for volume discounts for its members. It's foolish for an organization to not take advantage of its membership numbers to provide services and the PDGA has been reluctant to pursue some along the way such as a line of PDGA logo discs.

Disc retailers indicate that PDGA member purchases amount to 1-3% of their sales. They aren't going to be concerned if the PDGA gets deeper into disc and merch sales There are more unsanctioned events than sanctioned events. Note that we're talking about a contracted service designed for PDGA sanctioned events which are for their members, not for the 30-100 times as many non-members. Members should be concerned that the PDGA hasn't done more in this area to either directly provide or contract for services for its members.

the mission statement of the PDGA call for the association to become the face of competitive disc golf (#2). not competitive disc golf played by members. it also provides direction to standardize the sport (#4). not the association sanctioned subset of the sport. members should be concerned if the PDGA does not do enough for non-members. this whole thing is about having the chance to build something for and with everyone, but instead choosing to direct all the energy resources and profits to a favored vendor.

I think those numbers are skewed. the majority of all events ever serviced by titleDISC (over 300 now) are PDGA events. The trend is that a higher percentage of titleDISC's events are PDGA sanctioned. Just looking at the events currently offered on titleDISC, 60% are PDGA-sanctioned. All of the ones scheduled to appear soon on titleDISC are PDGA-sanctioned.

I also find the disc numbers hard to believe, but I have no facts with which to argue.

Also, the PDGA did not exactly contract for services for its members, at leats not by the traditional definition. They contracted with a firm to provide mutual services between the two businesses. The members are being charged (at a higher rate, even) for these services. This isn't a benefit to the members, it's a benefit to the PDGA. Now, instead of earning a couple bucks per entry, they can triple that in many cases. All at the expense of other businesses... under the guise of providing a service that was already being provided.

The "face" can't be there if it doesn't first serve the members and it gets financial backing to support it. How many more "free" services do you expect the members to support or continue to support without a financial model to eventually support them?

Just looking at the events currently offered on titleDISC, 60% are PDGA-sanctioned.


So, you have taken enterpreneurial advantage of the organized PDGA competition structure to help build your business. Nothing wrong with that as long as it's available. Ask all of the wholesalers who went out of business when Apple decided to go direct to the retailers. Pretty much happened in the disc market also.

the mission statement of the PDGA call for the association to become the face of competitive disc golf (#2). not competitive disc golf played by members. it also provides direction to standardize the sport (#4). not the association sanctioned subset of the sport. members should be concerned if the PDGA does not do enough for non-members. this whole thing is about having the chance to build something for and with everyone, but instead choosing to direct all the energy resources and profits to a favored vendor.


This brings up an important point

As I said earlier, I have tried to offer the PDGA my services, free of cost, to enable technology that would further the sport and the PDGA at the same time. Part of this offering was to develop a secure method for outside entities to interact with the PDGA's data in a meaningful way. This would have encompassed everything from registration to player ratings, course information, etc.

to keep the focus on the registration part, my plan was to enable the PDGA to interact automatically with sites that complied with a set of standards. Entries taken for PDGA events would be provided to the PDGA in a standard format, regardless of which site took the entry. Member information would be provided to these sites in the same fashion, enabling them to verify things like requirements for age- sex-, and rating-protected divisions before takign the entry. It would also allow outside entities to develop new and interesting ways to front-end data entry services like score information, etc. In my concept, the PDGA still remains the authority for all this data, but it's available to approved members of the community in an automated way. Members would have benefited immeasurably, limited only by the creativity of the community. This could have springboarded our sport to new technological heights... but the PDGA stopped returning my emails.

The PDGA has had more than one opportunity to further the sport in this way. They have instead chosen to adopt a more profitable, less beneficial concept that doesn't offer anything new except for an increase in online registration fees.

For whatever reasons (and I'm not an insider on this), primarily a lack of inhouse IT capabilities to coordinate volunteers, the PDGA hasn't been able to take advantage of your offers. It's too bad that it has evolved this way. You can also see the risk the PDGA has been financially forced to take when too many "eggs" are put in the baskets of volunteers versus contractors. Fortunately, more member services are being compensated but there's still quite a ways to go and the new signup service may help a little in this direction.

It's not hard to find a model of success built around entities that own and provide access to valuable data... there are too many to list. The PDGA most certainly has valuable data.

Strange how there is no issue with coordinating efforts to develop new technology when the profit stream is immediately evident. There are plenty of ways for the PDGA to profit while advancing the community. I don't think the new signup service is an example of this sort of advancement.

This thread has turned me off to titledisc.

I'm okay with that.

I will always stand up for what is right, even if people don't like to hear it. Put yourself in my position for a minute and see if you don't feel the same way.

It still doesn't make much sense... the PDGA has hurt the market that titleDISC built. I have tried to work with the PDGA and resolve the issues, but they have shown no interest in doing so. I have offered many suggestions on how to make it work for everyone, even offered to donate my time for the betterment of the sport. The PDGA refused. If somehow this turns you off to my business instead of the PDGA, then I can't really help that. All the best wherever you choose to go.

titleDISC did not build the market. The market for online registration has been there for a while. The savvy have been able to do it since the arrival of ready to use online shopping carts. As mentioned earlier, this is a service that the PDGA should have been offering a few years ago to any TD that sanctions their tournaments.

titleDISC was the first in the market, let's put it that way.

I'm still not sure why this is a service that the PDGA needs to offer, but I'm perfectly fine with them offering it. I'm just not okay with the way that they offer it. I'm not sure how many times I need to say that.

I'm not sure how many times I need to say that.



Personally, I think I've heard it enough times.

You made your case, ED Brian Graham made his, and there's clearly a difference of opinions on this matter.

I also think that further bantering about this will only cause others to join NEngle in the group that are turned off to titledisc.

yes, josh, you broke the numbero uno rule - dont criticize the PDGA! it WILL (by some) be considered "misleading information and attack[ing] the PDGA " and YOU will be the one in the wrong :)

fine, my opinion is known and the PDGA does not share my concerns. I'll leave it at that.

Now, back to what originally started this thread... providing the best service in the industry.

titleDISC will be enabling user logons on the beta site this week and I would appreciate a few beta tester volunteers. If you are interested, please send me a PM or an email ([email protected]). I don't need much help, but I want to be sure that I get the bugs out before I unleash it on the production world. This will be a private beta with a controlled audience.

from another thread:

"I've been toying with the idea of changing titleDISC's rate structure to be as close to exactly $1.00 profit per entry as I can make it."

stop toying with it, and do it! best idea yet. impossible to undercut, ridiculously understandable, and unimpeachable fair. here's your chance to lead the market.

consider it done. all new events listed will adopt the new fee structure. Existing ones will stay the same, since it's hard to justify changing mid-registration... too many problems would arise.

I will be posting some info on titledisc.com about the new structure soon. I will link to that here when it's ready.

here's a link to information on the new fee structure for titleDISC!

http://forums.titledisc.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&amp;t=4

please feel free to register for an account while there. all are welcome. Even PDGA staff ;)

How much is the PDGA charging the player for this service? I heard an amount and I hope it's not correct. Anyone? rWc****

titleDISC is not affiliated directly with the PDGA, so we set our own prices.

I realize that. I thought the pdga had it's own registration service. rWc****

Ah. I think if you read back a few posts, you'll find some info about price structures.

another titleDISC announcement:

http://forums.titledisc.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&amp;t=6

it's about sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll (or something equally as cool)... go read it :D

another titleDISC announcement:

http://forums.titledisc.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&amp;t=6

it's about sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll (or something equally as cool)... go read it :D


maybe changing the title will get some more people to read the new announcement :D

Looking for an easy way to get sponsorship for your event? check out the link above!

Wow! Very cool thing to do Joshua! :D

Thanks!

update: I've changed the layout of titleDISC.com but I'm not 100% sold on the colors. since this site is designed for the players, not for me... I figured I'd ask what you'd like to see :)

I'd love some feedback on the new layout and what colors you folks think will work. There are only 3 colors used on the site (aside from the white background). let me know what you think!

I prefer Red and Black!!! :D

I think titleDISC is too technologically advanced for red and black /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Hmm....red and black would be ironic considering your running CentOS. :D

I think he was making a Texas Tech reference, but I dig :)